#2439 - Johnny Knoxville

Summary

The Joe Rogan Experience #2439 — Guest: Johnny Knoxville

Date: January 15, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Joe Rogan sits down with the legendary stuntman, comedian, and “Jackass” co-creator Johnny Knoxville for a wide-ranging, highly entertaining, and often jaw-dropping conversation. They delve deep into Knoxville’s career of stunts and mayhem, the psychology of risk-taking, iconic Jackass moments, the trajectory of physical injuries (including concussions), and profound reflections on thrill-seeking, responsibility, and surviving wild situations. They also cover the culture behind "Jackass," the darker side of pushing boundaries, and the new “Fear Factor” reboot—hosted by Knoxville himself.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

The Legacy of Stuntwork and Judo Gene LeBell (00:19–04:21)

• Knoxville shares his experience meeting legendary stuntman and martial artist Gene LeBell, recounting stories of being “choked out” for patches and colorful set memories.
• Discussion of early mixed martial arts history: Gene LaBelle vs. Milo Savage.
  • Rogan: "He had one of the very first ever mixed martial arts fights." (01:17)
  • Judo Gene teaching Bruce Lee about grappling and strength differences.

Standout Moment

• Rogan: "Don't slap him. Give him a kiss. Kiss him in the cheek before he chokes you out. Don't slap him." (01:17)

Jackass Origins and the Rise of Extreme Comedy (04:21–10:44)

• Knoxville details the desperate beginnings of "Jackass": impending fatherhood prompted him to write wild self-defense articles, which transformed into filmed stunts.
• Shooting himself with a cheap bulletproof vest (08:00), the surreal origins of on-camera mayhem.
  • Knoxville: "So I'm like, all right, well, give me the gun. And I'm... I got the gun to my chest and a car pulls up behind me, and it's a bunch of tweakers... So I went back to shooting myself. It was sketchy. It looked like a snuff film." (08:10)
• Transition to TV and the accidental normalization of physical risk.

Memorable Quote

• Knoxville: “Sometimes it feels like you're living someone else's life, you know. Imposter syndrome. Yeah, a little. And I'm extremely grateful, especially for a guy with my limited education. I get the joke.” (04:36)

Managing Fear, Close Calls & Injury (10:44–18:16)

• The mounting dangers from escalating Jackass stunts (bulls, rockets, Buster Keaton wall gag gone awry).
• Philosophy of danger: one-upping your last achievement isn’t necessary; emphasis should be on comedy over escalation (13:52).
  • Knoxville relays the intervention to stop shooting after going too far during "Jackass Number Two"—and his negotiation for two more weeks (“I did negotiate two more weeks of shooting out of them.” (16:00))
• The psychological shift of being responsible for a crew and the pressure of audience expectations.

Lasting Physical & Psychological Impact (18:16–31:55)

• Knoxville on cumulative injuries:
  • “I can't do any stunt where I would get a concussion now because I've had too many. The last one was really gnarly. I kind of went offline for a while.” (18:16)
  • Bulls, Butterbean KO, repeated concussions.
• Ongoing back issues, attempts at medical interventions (radiofrequency ablation, injections, Rogan suggesting exercise equipment like the Reverse Hyper and Teeter for decompression). (23:05–26:38)
  • Rogan: “Have you ever heard of a machine called a reverse Hyper?... I love this machine. I have one at home, I have one here at the studio.” (24:22)
• The ethics of inspiring copycats: “I hope to just entertain them and not inspire them, but I can't ... just watch, don't do.” (21:45)

Behind-the-Scenes: “Fear Factor” and Ethics of Danger Entertainment (26:38–41:36)

• Rogan and Knoxville swap “Fear Factor” production war stories—liability, insurance, outlandish stunts, and the infamous “donkey cum” episode that ended the show.
  • Rogan: “They got donkey come because it's the cheapest come.” (34:21)
  • Knoxville: “You know what the worst part of that is? Semen burps later.” (35:35)
• Discussion on the psychological coaching contestants needed to surpass primal fear and survivor’s euphoria.
  • Rogan: "You just gotta decide. Like, your mind has to decide. I'm just going to do this. Just do it. Just go ahead and do it. Don't think about, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm doing it. Just fucking do it. Chew, swallow, chew, swallow." (40:33)
  • Knoxville on survivor’s euphoria: “It just fills you up.” (47:24)

Stunts, Risk, and Survivor’s Mindset (41:36–61:12)

• Reflections on the draw of life-or-death stunts and survivor’s euphoria.
• Psychological assessment: Knoxville admits compartmentalizing his drive for stunts, never wanting to “unwind” that part in therapy.
  • Knoxville: “...we can talk about everything in my life, but not the part of me that does stunts. Really? Yeah. Because I didn't want to unwind that.” (60:48)
• Discussion of boundaries, pushing limits, and the mental “glass jaw” after repeated KO’s.

Family, Legacy, and Cultural Impact (61:12–81:03)

• Knoxville’s upbringing: prankster father, wild cast of characters, early indoctrination in chaos. (62:55–68:04)
  • Stories of staged gunfights at the Christmas party and extreme workplace pranks.
• Reflections on Jackass’s pop culture legacy and 25th anniversary art show.
  • Knoxville: “You created, like, a chapter in modern pop culture history, really, because it became one of the most entertaining things ever and one of the most ridiculous things ever.” (76:58)
• Real risks and scary wild animal segments—incompetent backup plans, the challenge of drawing lines, and the difference in audience reactions to men vs. women getting hurt.

Injuries, Consequences, and the Realities of Combat (81:03–115:16)

• Detailed discussion on injuries, both in Jackass and in combat sports: shattering limbs, notorious MMA/boxing knockouts, gender and risk aversion.
  • Rogan: “...when a woman gets knocked out, it bugs me way more... I just. You're sitting there in your commentary chair, you're just like, oh, man. When someone gets shinned in the head, just bang. And you see them stiffen up. Like, there's something about a woman getting knocked out that. I don't know why. Yeah, it's part my. My brain is like, no.” (91:34)
• The problem of knowing when to stop: “How do you outrun that, which made him a champion?” (112:13)
• Cumulative trauma—brain scans and the irreversibility of CTE:
  • Knoxville: “I've gotten my knockouts. I got knocked out easier. Yeah. It's the old glass jaw.” (106:49)
  • Knoxville: “They're like, don’t get any more concussions.” (107:18)
• Depression after stunts, TMS therapy for post-concussion symptoms, and realistic limitations moving forward.

Combat Legends & Doping (115:16–124:06)

• Deep dive on MMA and boxing GOATs: Fedor, Cain Velasquez, Mike Tyson, women’s UFC, the “Pride” era, and the dangers of weight-cutting.
  • Rogan: “Fedor in his prime was about as good as anybody who ever lived.” (96:28)
• Stories about fighters’ careers being ended or curtailed by repeated KO’s.
• Russian doping scandals, the documentary Icarus, and systemic cheating:
  • Rogan: “[Icarus]... led to... Russia was banned from the Brazil Olympics.” (122:26)

Reflections on LGBTQ+ Acceptance & Alan Turing (124:06–127:00)

• The history and acceptance of LGBTQ+ identities, referencing Alan Turing’s pivotal contributions and tragic persecution.
  • Rogan: “And what did they do? This guy, they. They chemically castrated him for being gay, and he wound up committing suicide.” (126:13)

World War II, Hitler, and Drug-Fueled Madness (127:00–131:32)

• WWII as a cultural touchstone, the myth of the “heroic war.”
• Ongoing fascination with WWII figures, including Hitler’s meth and opiate addiction (Blitzed), Kalman syndrome, “micropenis,” and bizarre medical history.

“Wild and Wonderful Whites of West Virginia” & Documentary Filmmaking (131:32–140:56)

• The making of the cult documentary, the real suffering in devastated coal towns compounded by painkillers and poverty.
  • Knoxville: “It's just pretty sad... Entertaining and sad at the same time.” (135:04)
• The limits of returning to exploitative territory: “At some point it's a little much... I don't feel right about it.” (140:38)

Future Projects and Oddball Tangents (140:56–end)

• Knoxville's enthusiasm for documentary filmmaking, future projects (including one about David Allan Coe).
• Forays into conversation about notorious ventriloquist acts, Otto & George, and tragic yet hilarious performance artist stories.

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Notable Quotes & Noteworthy Segments (with Timestamps)

• On facing fear for family:
  • "There was never any fear like you have a daughter on the way and you have to figure out how to support her." (07:01) — Knoxville
• On cumulative trauma:
  • "I can't do any stunt where I would get a concussion now because I've had too many. The last one was really gnarly. I kind of went offline for a while." (18:16) — Knoxville
• On survivor’s euphoria:
  • "Just the endorphins that get released after going through something like that, and that you did survive, and it's just. It just fills you up." (47:24) — Knoxville
• On his upbringing:
  • "Just kind of imitating what my father did, I guess." (64:39) — Knoxville
• On never wanting to "unwind" his daredevil impulse:
  • "Okay, we can talk about everything in my life, but not the part of me that does stunts. Really? Yeah. Because I didn't want to unwind that." (60:48)
• On coaching fear:
  • "You just gotta decide. Like, your mind has to decide. I'm just going to do this. Just do it. Just go ahead and do it. Don't think about, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm doing it. Just fucking do it. Chew, swallow, chew, swallow." (40:33) — Rogan
• On inspiration vs. imitation:
  • "I hope to just entertain them and not inspire them, but I can't ... just watch, don't do. I don't want anyone to get hurt. Me, I'm another story." (21:45) — Knoxville

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The Tone & Takeaway

This episode was wild, raucous, heartfelt, and at times somber. Knoxville and Rogan share a camaraderie rooted in the appreciation (and respect for the danger) of human boundaries—both physical and psychological. Knoxville emerges as both a legend of resilience and a man fully aware of his luck, his limitations, and the weighty, absurd legacy of Jackass. The dangers of seeking adrenaline for entertainment, the ethics of inspiring others, the permanence of brain trauma, and the complexity of moving forward as a performer all resonate. Ultimately, Knoxville's story is a testament to the extremities of human experience, the risk of chasing euphoria, and the beauty and peril of living life on the edge.

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For listeners:

• An unflinching, highly candid behind-the-scenes look at a cultural phenomenon.
• Equal parts comedy and cautionary tale.
• Deep insights into the psychological motivations behind high-risk entertainment and its cultural impact.

Transcript

[A]

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

[B]

The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night.

[A]

All day.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Date said you all bad. He choked him to sleep.

[A]

I would pay for this.

[B]

How did you meet judo Gene LaBelle?

[A]

I met him first on Men in Black 2. He was a stunt man.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And people would. The stunt people would line up outside his trailer so they. So he would choke them out, and he would give you that little. He would give you a patch afterwards. You've been choked out by Judo Gene LaBelle.

[B]

Oh, God. He had all those cartoonish patches. He, like, gave you a bunch of those. He's a character man.

[A]

Yeah. One guy. I saw one. The stuntman, right before Gene choked him out. He goes, one second, this Irish dude, and he turned around and he slapped Gene in the face. And Gene's like, okay. And then after Gene choked him, they were standing up. Gene just dropped him straight to the ground for slapping him. Ooh.

[B]

You can get hurt like that.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's what you get for slapping Gene LaBelle.

[B]

Don't slap him. Give him a kiss. Kiss him in the cheek before he chokes you out. Don't slap him. He had one of the very first ever mixed martial arts fights.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

It was that he fought Milo Savage. Yeah.

[A]

And didn't Milo Savage grease himself up beforehand?

[B]

Oh, yeah. But also, Gene was wearing a gi, which kind of negates most of the. The grease.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you're wearing this, like, very frictiony gi. So he grabbed him, and where it.

[A]

Was, I guess the rumor was Milo Savage's gloves were loaded.

[B]

I don't know. I would do that, though, if I was Miles Savage.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I would have some kind of weapon against Gene LaBelle.

[B]

Well, most people that have never grappled a guy like that, they. You don't have any idea how helpless you actually are until that. You think, I'll be able to push him away from me. I'll be able to push him away and get some punches off. You really don't know until that guy grabs you, and it's like being grabbed by an orangutan.

[A]

Yeah. Because his mom ran the Grand Olympic Auditorium. Right. And he grew up training with all the disciplines of fighters that came through there.

[B]

Well, he definitely knew pretty much everything. He knew a lot. But, you know, obviously he's a judo specialist, but he's the guy who taught Bruce Lee about the importance of grappling.

[A]

Yeah. Because he worked with him on the Green Hornet.

[B]

Yeah. I think he worked with him on that but when he locked up with Bruce Lee, like, Bruce Lee was like, oh, okay, I'm helpless. Like, apparently the story is that Gene picked him up and carried him around over his shoulder. And then Bruce Lee was like, okay, this because, like, Gene was a light. I think he's a light heavyweight judo champion. So, I mean, he's probably at least £190. And, you know, Bruce Lee is a pretty small guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Gene just grabbed him.

[A]

His face just looked like a catcher's mitt. It was just. Just looking at that guy's face. Yeah.

[B]

He was a classic.

[A]

And always check out a guy's ears before you talk shit with them. If they have that, you know, cauliflower. Cauliflower ear. Just buy him a drink or give him a hug.

[B]

Stevo have that. Didn't he get it from, like, didn't he have Jon Jones his ears up?

[A]

He tried to get it. I don't know if it happened. We, you know, we tried to do. I tried to do that to the director, Jeff Tremaine, on Jackass Number Two. Every time someone would walk past him, they would grab his ear and twist. And we were just hoping it would cauliflower up by the end of the film, but it didn't. You got to earn that. Yeah.

[B]

There's a lot of guys who fake it, though. I know a lot of jiu jitsu guys who fake it. They have guys their ears up on purpose because they want to look cool. It's kind of weak.

[A]

Yeah, that's. You gotta earn it.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's like Robert De Niro in that movie where he wouldn't take Viagra. Remember, a hot on should be earned. It should be had legitimately or not at all.

[A]

The old fashioned way, with eye contact.

[B]

There was some. Wasn't that some weird movie where he was going, he was a mob boss, but he was going to a shrink and he couldn't get it up.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Was it Billy Crystal was the shrink. I don't remember the name of it, but yeah, I know what you're talking about, dude.

[B]

You've had a wild ride in life. You know what I mean? You've done a lot of crazy shit, not just with Jackass, but became a movie star. And, you know, like, what has this been like for you?

[A]

Sometimes it feels like you're living someone else's life, you know, Imposter syndrome. Yeah, a little. And I'm extremely grateful, especially for a guy with my limited education. I get the joke. What I would be doing if I didn't fall into what I'm doing. So, yeah, it's pretty surreal. I just keep trying to move forward.

[B]

How did you guys get started with Jackass? How did, how did all that come to bear?

[A]

I. Well, the short answer is my then girlfriend got pregnant and I had a daughter on the way and I was. I moved to LA to act, but I wasn't doing anything, man. I was drinking a lot and. And then I'm like, oh, shit, I have to support a daughter. I need to do something quick. So I was living next door to Antoine Fuqua in this duplex, the director. And he set me up with a casting director who got me a commercial agent. My friend John Linson set me up writing articles for this magazine because he knew I wanted to write. And one of the articles turned into me testing self defense equipment on myself. And a lot of different magazines wanted the article, but they didn't want anything to do with it because I was going to shoot myself in the chest with a bulletproof vest as the last thing. It was like stun gun, taser gun, pepper spray. And Jeff Tremaine, who now directs Jackass, he was the editor of Big Brother magazine, a skateboarding magazine owned by Larry Flint. And he goes, you can write it for us and I'll help you buy a couple of the things and the stun gun and the taser gun. And I took the money my mom gave me for Christmas and bought the cheapest bulletproof vest they had for the last thing.

[B]

You don't want to skimp on a bulletproof vest.

[A]

That's all. That's all I could afford. It was either no stun gun or taser gun. And so anyway, Jeff says, hey, why don't you film that article that you're writing? We'll put it in our skateboard video. And it kind of snowballed from there.

[B]

Oh, so that was the genesis of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. Isn't it weird how like desperation or like the recognition that, like, oh, you have responsibilities, like you got to get going, just lights a fire under your ass. You become like a totally different person.

[A]

It was like I deal with a certain amount of overcoming fear or whatever when doing the stunts, but there was never any fear. Like you have a daughter on the way and you have to figure out how to support her. Yeah, I was. I had to do something quick, and that was my best guess.

[B]

Yeah, it's the mother of invention, man. Yeah, that, that necessity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Understanding, like being a dad and having to take care of people, it just changes everything.

[A]

Yeah, like what Am I doing? I. You know what I'm doing? I'm doing fucking nothing. And I need to do something.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's a primal feeling, right?

[A]

Yeah, it changed everything.

[B]

But what. But why when you're doing this? Like, first of all, what round, what caliber of revolver did you get shot with?

[A]

Well, the vest was the cheapest one, so it could take a.38. And I got a.38. I borrowed it from my neighbor's wife.

[B]

Jesus Christ.

[A]

There wasn't a lot of pre production on this. Joe, how far away were you when you got shot? Well, my buddy was supposed to shoot me, but we just. We drove out the 14 and because we didn't have a location, and I'm like, pull off here. And then we pull off this exit and I'm like, okay, make a right. And we end up on the fire road. So we get out there, my friend's like, I'm not gonna shoot you, man. I can't do it. I'm like. So I'm like, all right, well, give me the gun. And I'm. I'm. I got the gun to my chest and a car pulls up behind me, and it's a bunch of tweakers, they're driving down the fire road. They're like, how do we get to the freeway? And I got the gun behind my back. I'm like, hey, you just go down here, make a right, then a left. And they drove away. And so I went back to shooting myself. It was sketchy. It looked like a snuff film. The. The. Because my friends, or my. The photographer on it saw his buddy die because he jumped off a hotel trying to hit a swimming pool and didn't hit that swimming pool. And so he was really scared, right? He was like, stop, don't do this, don't do this. Stop. I wasn't getting a lot of positive reinforcement, Joe.

[B]

Yeah, it doesn't seem like it.

[A]

And I had a bunch of. Because since it was Flint Magazine, I had a bunch of hustlers under the bulletproof vest to help absorb the impact. And at one point, they all fall out. And I bend over to pick them up. And I'm pointing the gun right at my friends as I pick them up. I don't realize this, but it was sketchy.

[B]

And that was the first.

[A]

Yeah, we put that in the Big Brother video.

[B]

Have you ever done anything like self harming, any dangerous type activities before you started Jackass, before you started doing all this kind of.

[A]

No, no, I didn't even Know itself. I mean, you can, you can argue me. My drinking didn't help my liver.

[B]

But it's like you guys, like, what you did was kind of fucking crazy.

[A]

But when you, I guess if you stop to, I don't know, like, it just becomes something you're doing. It was all normal to me. And I, I, I can't speak for them, it's just, that's what we're doing today.

[B]

And so that was the first one. And then how, how many times have you done a stunt where you're like this, I could die.

[A]

A few.

[B]

Like you've done like the bull one when you're blindfolded. I, I watched, I was like, don't do that. I was watching, I was like, this is crazy.

[A]

Yeah, that was, yeah, that was. Anytime you're working with a bull, I think that they hate you. And well, really they hate movement and they want to make you stop moving forever and. But I've had, you know, like in the Jackass Number two, when the rocket exploded, those were foot long metal rods and there was 12 of them. One blew out right next to my ribs, which would have been pitcher wrap on me. And one flew back 300 yards and split two, two of our art guys right between them. That would have, it was. We've had some really close ones. I tried to do the Buster Keaton thing in number two where the facade falls and it falls right. The window falls over my head. That was the plan. And the guy's like, okay. When it's. Because it was the close right of the movie. And the guy's like, this is a 20 foot steel wall. Like, you hit your mark, do not move. I'm like, got it. They said, action. And then so I take two steps and they're like, ah, no, no, cut, cut. So I just like, oh, okay, I'm gonna walk over here. And they'd already released the wall. Yeah. And if you watch the footage, it crushes me to the ground, but my head just makes it through the window. Otherwise that would have been, I would have been done.

[B]

Oh, geez.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

That was a close one.

[B]

God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How heavy was that thing?

[A]

I don't, it was 20 foot steel wall. It was, it was incredibly.

[B]

How bad did you get fucked up from that?

[A]

I. Nothing, Nothing. I'm like, it was like. I was very lucky. I'm also hyper limber, so it just, I kind of accordion when on impact.

[B]

Just dumb luck.

[A]

Dumb story of my life.

[B]

How many. It's all, I mean, all told. How many Stunts. Have you done like that?

[A]

Oh, I haven't. Oh, almost. Almost?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Kaput. I don't know. Like, there's at least six or seven, like, close calls, and then in any number of stunts, they can go wrong, you know? I don't know. I don't really. I just look forward.

[B]

Was there ever a time when you're doing this, what the fuck have I got myself into? Because you have to keep up one upping yourself, right?

[A]

Well, that was a problem for me. After we did the first movie, I didn't want to do a second movie because I didn't know how to top the first one, which now looks very tame compared to the others. And finally, Tremaine said, we don't have to top it. We just have to be funny. And I'm like, okay. That made me free. It took away all my anxiety, and I thought, okay, if that's the case. And a couple months later, he told me he was lying. We did have to top it. But by that time, I was already off in running.

[B]

Jesus, dude. Yeah, Your show would really give me anxiety.

[A]

It gives the guys, they get really anxious because I know 98.5% of what's happening on the set. Like, Jeff and I each. We keep a little from each other, so if we want to smoke one another, so. But the guys don't have any idea what's happening. So by the second week, you can just literally go up and put your finger on someone's shoulder, and they're like, jesus. They're so, so nervous. And I. And I. I don't blame them.

[B]

And, like, when you film one of those movies, like, how long is a shoot? Like, how many months do you film for?

[A]

Well, that depends on Jackass Number Two. Usually about. We go two weeks on, two weeks off, over four, five months. But I think Jackass Number Two, it was eight or nine months. And finally they had to have an intervention with me to stop shooting. They, hey, like, come down to the office tomorrow. We're going to finalize the edit or. Or do something in the edit. I'm like, all right. And I get there, and it's Spike, Jeff, a few of the cast, and. And they're like, we're not here to talk about the edit. I'm like, okay, like, we have to stop shooting. We're, like, so far over. And then it was also about. I was going to do the ski jump. You know, the Olympic ski jump? And it was. They're like, you. We have too much footage. You can't. Let's just Not. You've already put yourself on the line so much. You can't. And then it became like, well, I'm not. I didn't. I decided not to because I felt like this big intervention they had, it was like, doomed. The stunt was doomed. In my mind then that something negative was going to happen. So I ended up not doing the ski jump, but I did negotiate two more weeks of shooting out of them.

[B]

How far were you supposed to jump?

[A]

Until I went kaboom. I don't know. It was going to be the Olympic ski jump.

[B]

Like when they fly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you know how to ski?

[A]

Not at all. I don't want to be good at the stunt. Nobody wants to see that.

[B]

Well, I mean, you'd have to train for years to be good at it. But, I mean, I was just.

[A]

I had about 20 minutes, so that didn't happen. But I don't even know how we got on this.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon MGM Studios new movie Mercy only in theaters January 23rd. Set in the near future, trials are run by artificial intelligence that has access to every CAME camera phone and database. Chris Pratt plays a detective on trial, and he has 90 minutes to prove his innocence to an AI judge played by Rebecca Ferguson. Directed by Timor Beckman. Bed off. You've got to experience this movie on the big screen, especially in IMAX 3D. Get tickets now at mercymovie.com rated PG13. But. So are you done with all that stuff or would you consider doing it again?

[A]

Well, I. I can't do any stunt where I would get a concussion now because I've had too many. The last one was really gnarly. I kind of went offline for a while. And what one was that in? At the end, in Jackass Forever, I dressed up as a magician and I got obsessed with the idea of pranking an animal. I just wanted the thought of seeing the animal's reaction after the prank. And that kind of morphed into me dressing as a magician in a bullring, doing the pouring the milk and the hat trick to get the bull's reaction. And apparently the. The bull didn't think much of my trick because. Well, first of all, usually when you're working with the bull in a ring, there's a lot of soft dirt around, you know, And I got there that morning and it was. It was just dirt. But no, it was like concrete. And I thought to myself, well, that's a problem. But we're there, I'm shooting. So anyway, long story short, the bull hits me and usually when a bull hits you, well, always they drop their head, right? So I always try to jump a split second before it hits me. So I get above the bull as opposed to below the bull, which is never any fun. So. But I mistimed my jump. I jumped too early. So I jumped and then I start coming back down. Then the bull hits me and it flips me. Like I do like a one and a half flip. And the only thing that stops me is the back of the head. My back of my head hitting the concrete ground. And I got a concussion with the brain hemorrhage, a broken rib and a broken wrist out of the deal and that was it. And yeah, it was, it was. So.

[B]

And this is after you let Butterbean KO you too.

[A]

Lucky punch.

[B]

That dude hit so hard. I watched that. I was like, don't let that happen. Oh, don't do that.

[A]

He like, everyone's like, boy, that knockout punch must have hurt. I'm like, I didn't even feel it. Like the punches before really hurt. But the knockout punch, you don't, you, you've been knocked out before, you don't feel it. That one was a pretty bad concussion too. I had vertigo for six to eight weeks. After that, just driving around a curve, everything starts spinning.

[B]

Did you go to a hospital and get checked out?

[A]

Well, I went to see my doctor, Dr. Kipper, and he, he had to sew up my head because I fell back onto the hard ground of the swap meet. I think I hit my head on the corner of a display counter as well. I don't know.

[B]

Fuck, dude.

[A]

Should have went to college.

[B]

Do you ever feel any responsibility for how many people you inspire to do similar things?

[A]

Well, I hope to just entertain them and not inspire them, but I can't. I don't have any control over that except for when I do things like this. Like, just watch, don't do. I don't want anyone to get hurt. I, you know, me, I'm another story.

[B]

It's kind of amazing that you're okay, you know, other than the bad concussions.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm pretty okay with how it turned out.

[B]

What's the worst injury that anybody ever suffered during Jackass filming?

[A]

Wow. There's been many concussions, breaks. I don't know, just arm breaks, back breaks.

[B]

Do you have any, like, long term problems because of it?

[A]

My lower back is pretty blown out and who knows about how the concussions will rectify themselves. Hopefully I'm okay.

[B]

Do you feel any lingering effects?

[A]

Well, my lower back's blown out. So I. I just had a intercept procedure on my back about on early December. There they go, the. The nerve and the vertebra. They go in and like somehow use radio frequency heat to basically burn the nerve so it can't send the signal to your brain that it's hurt.

[B]

Oh, so you just walk around hurt, but you don't feel.

[A]

I don't know. Yeah, I'm fine with that.

[B]

Is it doing continual damage or is it just pain?

[A]

I think it seems to be. And that's an excellent question that I did not ask, nor did I care about. But thank you for bringing it up. I think to me it's just pain. So I, you know, Jesus.

[B]

Have you done anything else for it? Like, there's a bunch of different. Is it a herniated disc?

[A]

Yeah, but the lower two discs are herniated. Herniated. And I had shots in the facet joints of my lower back. It was like they put some kind of steroid in there and it didn't give the result that I wanted.

[B]

Have you ever heard of a machine called a reverse Hyper?

[A]

No.

[B]

There's a machine that a guy named Louis Simmons, he was this legendary power lifter guy. He developed because he had fucked his discs up. Powerlifting. And the doctors told him that he needed to fuse his disc.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they were compressed. And he's like, well, can't we decompress him? And they're like, no, there's no way. He's like, well, there's got to be a way. So he developed a machine that decompresses the spine while also strengthening the muscles around it. It's a piece of exercise. That's Louie. He developed this.

[A]

Looks like something that happened to Ving Grams in Pulp Fiction. The. That. That's it. What does the machine do? It strengthens.

[B]

And on the way up, when she's lifting with her legs, it's strengthening her back. And on the downswing, it's actively decompressing your back. So, like, pulls the discs apart and creates space. I love this machine. I have one at home, I have one here at the studio. I use it all the time. It's really an important piece of equipment for anybody that has a lower back injury or who wants to prevent lower back injuries. And just for overall strength, because it's a very odd movement to be able to recreate.

[A]

Oh, great. I'm going to look into that.

[B]

Yeah, I'll show it to you. Have it in the gym afterwards. I'll show it to you after the podcast.

[A]

Oh, Sweet.

[B]

You should get one. It'll help you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's another thing called a teeter. You know those things you hang by your ankles?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where you, like, decompress? They developed one called the decks, where you hinge from your waist. So you, like, get in this thing, you strap your legs in, and you lean forward, and it's like you're hanging from. Like that. So you're hanging from your hips. Like, all your. Your weight is being, like, set on your. Your thighs and your back carries all the weight, and it just slowly, like, pop, pop, pop. It decompresses. It feels great. That thing. That thing rules. I always tell everybody, if you. You have a back injury, you have back problems, that thing will help you a lot. Just do that for a few minutes every day and event, you know, slowly, over time, it creates space, and it alleviates some of the pinching and, you know, problems that people have, depending, of course, on the severity of your injury. But, yeah, I love that thing.

[A]

All right. Might be getting a couple pieces of equipment.

[B]

Yeah, man, you gotta. You gotta prevent. So how the. Did they talk you into hosting Fear Factor? How'd that happen?

[A]

I met with Sharon Levy, who runs Endemo.

[B]

I know Sharon. Shout out to Sharon Levy.

[A]

She's awesome. And I. I was like, I'm on. I'm on the fence. You know, I. And I sat down with her, and I liked her so much because she seems like. Like, how did a woman like you, that is, like, awesome get a job? Is the head of. You know. Right. She seems very rebellious. Right. And I just thought, yeah, I'm in. So it happened over a lunch. Really? Yeah. I really liked her.

[B]

One of the problems that we had with fear Factors, we did 148 episodes initially, and then we came back for a brief amount of time. But they wanted to really ramp it up. Like, it was like, these stunts are gonna be bigger and crazier than ever. And I was relieved when it got canceled because I was like, we're gonna somebody up.

[A]

I. Yeah, you felt what? What kind of. Well, you have a couple of examples or.

[B]

Well, there was a bunch in the early days. Like, first of. The first one that we ever did, while I was like, don't do this. Was bull riding. Made people bull ride. And this one lady was like, she probably weighed, like, 98 pounds, right. And she got on the back of the boat. I'm like, she's not gonna be able to hang on at all. She's gonna go flying. Was like a stunt guys are some of the most Savage, psychotic. Zero fear at all for their safety. Right. Like, they get so hardened by it over time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just not normal people. And this guy Perry, I was like, dude, what? You're gonna make them ride a bull? He's like, don't worry about it. Boo. These are stunt bulls. I go, that's what he said. I go, is that bull. No, he's a stunt bull.

[A]

They got their sack card.

[B]

I bet he has no idea. I bet he just thinks he's a bull. So they. Before they do it, the bull's fucking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's just a fucking tank.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm just going, don't. I told the people. I'm like, don't do it. Don't do it. Just quit, man. Just don't do it. It was, like, one of the only things where I was. I was like, I wouldn't do it. I'm telling you right now. I would never do this.

[A]

Were the bulls. Were they the bulls that.

[B]

Which.

[A]

Because certain bulls, you. They get upset if you ride them, but after you fall off, they don't try to hook you. Did these bulls try to hook them after they got.

[B]

They get. They had handlers that steered the bull away from the people, and they did a good job with that. But, I mean, who fucking knows? They don't want you on them. They weigh 2,000 pounds. They're all muscle. Like, the thing was so powerful. Like, you could feel it when it was in the cage, where it's just fucking moving around. I was like, don't do this.

[A]

And they're smart. Like, bulls are very smart. That's why, unfortunately, you know, in Spanish bull fighting, they kill the bull, which I'm not on board with, but because they learn your movements, you can't make the same movement twice in a row with a bull because they're gonna go, oh, okay, I'm gonna be. You're gonna do that, and I'm gonna be right here waiting on you. It's unfair. And you can't have anyone move behind the fence when it's on, because bulls can easily jump over the fence. A lot of them just don't know they can. So if you frighten them or provoke them, they're just going to jump over the fence. And then they have, like, 35 people. They can smoke. Yeah, it's. When we work with bulls, the set is different. The set is different. The guy, Gary LeFue, who supplies our bulls, he was world champion in 1970. And when we first started working with him and it stuck with us, the Whole time he's like, when we have bulls on the set, I don't want anyone. Any kind of negativity going around the set. It's already hard enough with the bull. If there's anyone negative or any negativity, that person's off the set and Negativity.

[B]

Like in what way?

[A]

Just if there's any, like, saying negative things or they've had a fight with someone right before. Any kind of negative vibes? No negative vibes.

[B]

The bull senses negative vibes.

[A]

Just. Well, the whole. The whole everyone on the set senses negative vibes. And everyone has to be completely present and positive for this.

[B]

And is this voodoo or is this like real science?

[A]

No, no, I. I think makes total sense. Especially when you're doing stunts. When you're doing a stunt that can forever alter you. No, I. I don't like any negativity either. Everyone could. And also, if you're doing something that can forever alter you, you have to want to be there and want to be doing it. You can't halfway go into it because then you're really going to get fucked up. So this is just some of the.

[B]

This is knowledge you've acquired over time.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's true. If you like half commit in something that can fore. You're gonna get. Yeah, it's bad. It's gonna be bad anyway. But you need to want to be there.

[B]

What a bizarre life skill.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean?

[B]

What a bizarre skill. Like, I know how to survive doing something you really shouldn't do that could alter you forever. Stay positive.

[A]

Well, that's. That. It doesn't. It's not a guarantee, Joe, but it does. I think it does help.

[B]

We did a bunch of other stuff that was not bulls, like, with cars and trucks and stuff where I was like, ooh. Like, we had a close call once with this lady who was strapped to the front of a truck, and she was supposed to go through some sort of an obstacle course. But, like, they blew through some boxes and the box got on the windshield of the other car and the other car almost slammed into her legs. Yeah. And she was screaming because she thought it hit her. And it was like. We were like, what the are we doing?

[A]

Was that when you guys came back? The second round?

[B]

Yeah, that was the second round.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The second round was sketchy. You know, we had people, like, getting. They were attached to a tree and they had to figure out which key to unlock them while a bungee cord was attached to them and a helicopter. And so once they got the thing unlocked. They would fucking rock it off of.

[A]

This tree up through the limbs.

[B]

No, no, no. There was lucky, luckily there wasn't that there was no branches that could have got.

[A]

But that would have been funnier.

[B]

It would have been funnier, like through the branches. And so they, they rock it over a giant canyon. Like, we're on the top of this canyon and they just went flying while they were being bungee jumped on the bottom of this helicopter. It was terrifying. They were so high, if anything went wrong, they were dead as 100 dead.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's sketchy.

[B]

Oh, there was so much sketchy stuff. And then it ultimately got canceled because they had a drink come. Did you ever see that episode?

[A]

No. No.

[B]

Yeah, that's what sunk us. So there was only two times what.

[A]

Year was what, what kind of donkey.

[B]

Donkey come.

[A]

Oh, yeah. That'll do it every time, Joe.

[B]

Yeah. And they got donkey come because it's the cheapest come.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Boars. Boars ejaculate 15 ounces at a time.

[B]

Whoa. So a wild boar, like a pig?

[A]

Yeah. Really? 15 ounces.

[B]

That's a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's a beer stein. Yeah, yeah. So this is it. So these get. That guy's drinking Donkey Kong and his brother's drinking donkey piss.

[A]

I, I, I'd offer the piss.

[B]

That guy chugged it. He chugged Donkey Kong. I'll get. And I'm starting to dry.

[A]

That's a lot. That was a lot of come. Yeah, a black and tan kind of. With the piss and the semen. Wouldn't have been a terrible idea.

[B]

It was so nasty.

[A]

What were the. Who were the girls there?

[B]

Well, they were all twins. It was three sets of twins. And they had to play horseshoes like she's her mascara.

[A]

It's like she had to drink the semen too.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And the thing is, three sets of people, three twins, three groups of twins did it, and only one won the money. Oh, so two people drank Donkey Kong and two people drank donkey piss for nothing.

[A]

You know what the worst part of that is? Semen burps later. Yeah, just the, just that bleachy smell.

[B]

That the ladies, like, between the two of them were fighting over who drank the piss they wanted to drink. They didn't want to drink the piss. They were happy to drink the cum. Which I guess tracks, you know, like, been there, done that. Not in that kind of volume, but what's the worst that could happen? Whereas the guys were, like, really trying not to drink the cum. You know, I don't know what they did to decide, because they had to decide, like, one of them is going to drink. One of them is going to drink piss. So that was one of two times. Two times where I was hosting this show where I said to the producers, don't do this. Don't do this. I'm like, you're going to. The show's going to get canceled. They're like, no, we're fine. NBC approved it. They did.

[A]

Like, they held.

[B]

They're the bellwethers of good taste guy on set, who is like the NBC standards guy, the Standards and practices guy. And I'm like, you're. You're okay with this? Like, this is okay. And like, yeah, the network's fine with it. I'm like, this is so. You guys are too close to this. I'm like, you guys are too close to this. You don't understand how the general public's going to react.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And then I think what happened. I think it was tm. Tmz. But someone leaked the footage online. Someone leaked, like, images of people drinking. Kind of like Fear Factor crosses the line. And then the outrage was palpable. Like, it was, like, some serious outrage. And then that show never aired in America, but it aired overseas. I think it aired in, like, maybe the Netherlands or something like that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or Germany, which is where Fear Factor actually came from. Fear Factor was actually a show in the Never. In the Netherlands called Now or Neverland.

[A]

Ah.

[B]

And then they brought it over to America when they went Endemall purchased it, and then they changed it to. I think they. Then they came up with the name Fear Factor after that. That was, like, one. I was already on board.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. I didn't know that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There was no. There was virtually no blowback after Pontiac Horse Come and Jackass Number Two. Never heard about it.

[B]

Well, it wasn't on t. There's something about television, you know, censored, you know, Federal Communications approved, and they drank cum. So that got us canceled. That was it. That was like 2000, I guess 11 or something like that. 12.

[A]

How many seasons you do.

[B]

I think we did six or seven initially. And then we did another. Yeah, and then we did another six episodes. One of them that never aired.

[A]

Did you help write creative?

[B]

No. No, no, no, no.

[A]

You didn't want any part of that?

[B]

I had zero. No. What I would do is I'd show up at work, I'd get in my trailer, I'd take an edible, and then I would go to the set, and I'm like, What do we got? I did the first two. The first four episodes I did sober. Then I was like, this is so boring. I need to get high. And so I would take pot lollipops and pot gu lit and then enjoy it because then it was like. Like, this is an adventure.

[A]

What a great, crazy.

[B]

Oh, it was a fun gig.

[A]

Yeah. I had a. I had so much fun, too. Because all I do is, like, all I did was talk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Oh, it's easy. I ate a lot of. I ate a lot of things to try to encourage people, you know, like. Because after a while, I got so.

[A]

You know, you would do the things with them.

[B]

I'd be like, you could do it. Like, I'll do it. I'll do it for you. Like, yeah. And some of the times when I did it to just try to help people, I'm like, look, I'm going to show you. I'm going to do it and then you're going to do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then we didn't even air me doing it because I was like. Because they didn't want to make it seem like it was so. Because I could do it easily because I was so used to disgusting stuff. I could just take a roach and just throw it down a worm and throw it down, like, just do it. It's not that hard. It's all in your fucking head. Because I was trying to, like, you.

[A]

Know, I get it, like, coach people through it. I. When I took the job, I'm like, I. This. I'm just gonna, like, give people hell, you know, the whole time, you know, and make their fears worse. But then I get to set and there's a human in front of you, and I'm like, I don't know. These are regular people and they really have fear. So I'm gonna try. I ended up like you, trying to help them do it. But I was. I never wanted to, like, do what they were doing for the fact that I never wanted that footage to be seen. Like, I'm trying to, you know, like, you were just right. Like, you had confidence that they wouldn't show that. And I'm like, ah.

[B]

They showed a few things. They showed me eating, like, spiders. They showed me eating a roach. But I ate a lot of stuff that they never saw.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or I did some things that they. Because I just wanted these people, you.

[A]

Know, I get it.

[B]

Like, you can do good. It's in your head. I'm like, you just gotta decide. Like, your mind has to decide. I'm just going to do this. Just do it. Just go ahead and do it. Don't think about, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm doing it. Just fucking do it. Chew, swallow, chew, swallow. I would just talk them through it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, yeah, I became like a fucking motivational coach or something. Like, that was weird.

[A]

Yeah, that's real. Because after there was. On the first, there was one girl that quit the. She's like, I'm not continuing this bit, this stunt.

[B]

What was it?

[A]

Can you say? It was something with snakes. Right. And it was a big fear. And after that, I. I got the cast together, and I'm like, it at least always try to do what we're doing. Don't. Don't let it. The fear stop you. Right. Just always try. And after that, like, everyone, even if they were horrified, they made an effort, and I felt good about that, and I think they did, too.

[B]

Oh, that's cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, some people. But it's. Sometimes it's good that someone quits. So you realize, like, this is real. Like, some people real. Like, especially snakes. Snakes. There's something about ophidiophobia that I think is primal. I think it's in your DNA. I think either your ancestors were either bitten by a snake and barely survived, or someone saw someone die from a snake, and that that information is encoded in your DNA. Because the. The fear that people have of snakes is wild. Like, when they have legitimate ophidiophobia, it is a crazy fear to watch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's. It's like their whole body locks up. They start shaking. Like, it's not a normal fear. It's like an ancient caveman fear that's locked into their DNA. Like someone thousands of years ago survived something like this. And that's the only reason why you're here. And every fiber of your being wants to fucking run away from snakes.

[A]

It's wonderful. It has to be when someone has that, like, bam. Terrified of snakes.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Terrified. And of course, we use that to our advantage.

[B]

Of course. Yeah. Well, we would make people fill out a questionnaire when they would sign up for Fear Factor. Like, what are your fears? Heights, Snakes, Spiders. Well, you're getting heights. Yikes. And spiders.

[A]

I would write tequila, whiskey, blowjobs.

[B]

I hate back massages. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was fascinating because, like, you know, I had a background in martial arts and. And teaching, and one of the things that I did when I was younger was I took a lot of people to tournaments, and I coached a lot of people in taekwondo tournaments, and they'd be fudgeing, terrified. And I would. I learned how to lock in with them and how to get them into a certain mindset, you know, as a coach. And I'd be like, look, you're going to get past this, and this is going to be, like, one of the highlights of your life, because you're absolutely terrified. And this fear on the other side will. It will be a completely different feeling. You'll have a feeling of accomplishment. You'll have a feeling of an understanding of knowing that you can overcome very terrifying situations and you can triumph and you could do this. Like, you have skills. You just have to be able to go out there and perform and you can do it. And I'd get in their head that I carried that over to Fear Factor sometimes because there was people that just needed help. Like, they didn't. They had never experienced anything that really freaked them out before. They'd never experienced the kind of pressure of not just a competition, but a competition where the doing something kind of dangerous and something that really freaked them out. They have to hold their. Their breath underwater for, like, two minutes while they swim through a thing. And we have rescue divers under there, rescue them. And there's panic. And it was like. That was one thing that was really satisfying was being able to, like, take a person who was ready to quit and then they went on and won the whole thing.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, that's. That does make you feel good to push someone to the other side. And the survivor's euphoria waiting for you. Will that. I heard that I read about that term, survivor's euphoria, and I realized I'd.

[B]

Experienced it multiple times.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. There was a. You heard of Colonel John Paul Stapp?

[B]

No.

[A]

He was a doctor, biophysicist, flight surgeon, and he worked with Chuck Yeager and all that out at Edwards. It was. It's now Edwards Air Force Base, and they were conducting experiments on what happens to a pilot when they eject at high altitude. And Colonel John Paul Stapp, because these experiments were gnarly. They were on deceleration. They built this huge sled out in the desert, and he would strap himself in. Because the thinking at the time was, if you're going to do something, a very dangerous experiment. A lot of times people back then would put themselves at the center because they didn't want to. Of course, they had other people doing it. And he did it most, though. So they would go hundreds of miles per hour. Yes.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Hundreds of miles per hour and stop within eight feet. And at the time I think they thought you could only experience maybe 18 GS of deceleration. He, at one time experienced 49 GS of deceleration. I think it's the most ever that any human is. And he went blind for a little bit. And he knew that was going to happen because he'd had that happen before in these experiments. And the night before, the one where he got 49 G's experience 49 G's, he went around his house with his eyes closed and just trying to do things like cook. And if. If he did go blind forever, he's one of the most. He. He, at one time, he was known as the fastest man alive on that sled. He went faster than anyone at the time. He. And he's the reason we have seat belts in cars. He's one of the most brilliant men of the 20th century. He was on the COVID of Time magazine. No one knows who he is today.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But he talked about Survivor's Euphoria, and that's where I learned about it.

[B]

What did he say about it?

[A]

Just the endorphins that get released after going through something like that, and that you did survive, and it's just. It just fills you up.

[B]

So he knew he was gonna go blind, and he did it anyway.

[A]

He knew that there was a high probability of going blind and a possibility.

[B]

Of being blind forever.

[A]

Yes. And he was blind for, like, couple days before it started getting sensing light again. Yeah, he's. He's an amazing, amazing person.

[B]

I did a flight with the Blue Angels once.

[A]

How was that?

[B]

It was amazing. First of all, you don't. You never think of, like, that being a physical thing, that those guys have to be physically fit.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Well, you go to. When we went to the base before you, you know, do the whole safety thing. They explain everything, what you're going to have to do. You see, like that. These guys are all fucking jacked. They're all like superheroes.

[A]

Yeah. It's because they're not the bigot. They're.

[B]

They're. They're short like me, and they're all, like, thick. They're all like, jack dudes. And they were like, well, first of all, you don't want to be tall because it's all about how much time it takes for the blood to get from your heart to your brain. And the shorter distance it has to travel to, the better off you are. And you have to be physically strong because you do it. Have you ever done it? You ever done a flight in a fighter jet?

[A]

No. But we did the Vomit Comet in Russia, okay? But Steve O Went up in a MiG.

[B]

They do a thing called hooking. So what it is is, like, you hold onto the joystick, or you. There's straps that strap your legs down as well, you know, like, you're really harnessed in. You hold on to your straps. You go like this. And what you're literally doing is forcing blood into your brain. Because you feel consc. Consciousness closing like an elevator door. It's like you feel the pressure. Like, you're going black. You literally see it. You see the darkness on the sides, and you're just trying to keep the blood in your brain. We went seven and a half GS. But the guy in front of me while we're doing this, so you're taking this hot. You're, like, flying through these canyons. Like, he was going for it. Like, he really took me on a ride. It wasn't a safe ride. It was wild. We were, like a couple hundred feet off the ground, maybe, and whipping through these canyons, taking these fucking hard turns. And I heard him going, hoot, hoot, hoot. So I'm going, oh, fuck. He's blacking out, too. I'm like, we're going hundreds of miles an hour, just like 100ft off the ground, whipping through these canyons. This guy's about to fucking black out, too.

[A]

That's not what you want to hear.

[B]

It was terrifying, but also, like, super educational. Like, you know, you just see people flying around. You're like, oh, it's probably like driving a car. No, it's unbelievably physically demanding. And the Blue Angels, they don't use gravity suits. Or at least they didn't.

[A]

No, no. What, they don't use decompression suits?

[B]

No, no. It's just a regular flight suit.

[A]

Well, did they not go up to a certain. What altitude were they?

[B]

Well, this is a jet. It's a jet. It's not like you have to. Like, you're not in a spaceship. Right. So the whole thing is just about being able to stay conscious. And the thing about the gravity suit is, I guess somehow or another it aids your ability to absorb all those GS. I'm not really educated about it, but I just do know that he said there's ways that you wear suits that make this easier, but they don't wear the suits.

[A]

Yeah, I think if you go up to a certain altitude, you have to have.

[B]

Right, but this wasn't an altitude thing.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

This was just a G Force thing. It was just the hard turns. It's like the wicked turns at hundreds of miles an hour. And also just thinking about the tolerances of the aircraft, its. And the pressure that's on the hull. Because the feeling of being in a jet going 100 miles an hour, hundreds of miles an hour, and then hitting a hard turn, it's just your whole body just like.

[A]

And you're just along for the ride. I mean, they're so skilled to be able to overcome the forces.

[B]

He let me do some stuff. Like I got to make the jet do a loop.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

I got to get it to roll over to get it to go upside down and go back over. Yeah, he showed me how to do that.

[A]

Wow. You were in control of it or.

[B]

Well, I mean, he's there too, in case I was really fucking stupid. I'm sure he has ultimate control, but I have a joystick too. I was allowed to do some stuff.

[A]

Do you think, I mean, they could give you a joystick and it not be connected to anything too, and make you just.

[B]

But it was connected. You could clearly tell while you're moving it.

[A]

Right. Oh, man, that's pretty scary.

[B]

It. It made you want to get one of those things. Like how dope would it be, get.

[A]

One of those jets?

[B]

Because you could get one of those if you're like a super rich guy.

[A]

Well, yeah, you can get one, but.

[B]

You gotta, you know, I mean, how much is a. Because we, we looked this up one day. You could buy like decommissioned fighter jets. You know, they don't have any machine guns on them or anything crazy. But you can get a decommissioned fighter jet. If you're like some psychotic billionaire. Yeah, you got your own landing strip. You. You could get a fighter jet.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Which is gnarly.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you go to Russia, you could probably get one fully loaded.

[B]

1500 bucks, dog. A million. It's a million five. Well, look at this one. 395 grand. You get one. What's like a really dope one. It's like, go make it price. Okay. Five, four. What is that one? For 5 million bucks, what do you get? 1992 McDonnell Douglas Skyhawk.

[A]

I mean, for that price, you should get a couple of rockets with it. Come on.

[B]

Well, I bet you could go to Russia and they'll give you some.

[A]

Oh, man, we. Yeah, we. We shot in Russia. And you can literally do anything you want in Russia. They let me get on a military base and shoot missiles out of a cannon. They took Steve O. Up in a Mig.

[B]

This is back when we were friendly with Russia.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah, it's like 2005.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And it was, it was wild. Russia. We had so much fun.

[B]

Do you ever look back on like how surreal like your life has been and all these experiences?

[A]

I feel it a lot. Like when, like for example, in Russia, because growing up, like you would do those disaster drills in school in case Russia dropped the bomb and you know, oh yeah, run out behind your locker and put your head between your legs. Like that would help if a bomb was dropped. Yeah, but they were such the bad guy. And then it was 2005 and I'm. Now I'm on it. Been in movies and I'm over there. And that felt very surreal to be in Russia and think about what's happened to my life. There are moments like that. Yeah.

[B]

Well, it was weird too because you got out of it and became a movie star. But then you were doing it again, like you were right back in.

[A]

And it kind of started in Russia, actually. We were doing a bit. We'd done a few things over in Russia and we were doing something with the Russian special forces where we were on like, we're going to run through this. What do you call it when you're. There's dogs and obstacle course. Yeah, we're on obstacle course. And they had all these things set up. I'm like, all right. Well, I was like, Jeff, why don't you have their attack dog attack me and then shoot me with the rubber bullets and then have the guy kick me in the face when I get to the End. And we shot that and the dog attacked me. And the, the Russian guy, the special forces guy, said, I'm not gonna kick you in the face.

[B]

But he did, what a nice guy.

[A]

Deliver a nice blow to my solar plexus. I had to beg him to do it three times to like, no, you gotta, like, do it as hard as you can. But Jeff pulled me aside and goes, look, if this was just for Wild, the TV show Wild Boys, I would travel with them sometimes. He goes, if you're gonna go this hard for basic cable, why don't we do another movie? And I was like, all right.

[B]

How many movies have you guys done?

[A]

We've done four and we just announced we're going to do. I just announced we're gonna do another, gonna be out June 26th.

[B]

Have you filmed it already?

[A]

No, we're gonna, we're about to film it in February. Oh, late February. So start then. Yeah.

[B]

Do you feel apprehension? Do you feel like.

[A]

No, no, like.

[B]

But you can't get a concussion.

[A]

No, I can't get any concussions, but I mean, I don't care if, like I break my arm or leg. No one cares about that.

[B]

It's just I. You don't care about breaking your arm or your leg?

[A]

No.

[B]

Really?

[A]

No. Really? No.

[B]

So this is something, this is like a feeling that you've developed. This. I don't care. You didn't have that when you first started doing it.

[A]

There was probably some, some self worth issues when I began. It didn't come from a healthy place, Joe.

[B]

Well, it, but it's not just that. It's like you don't have a fear of being like radically injured because you blow your knee out or you blow your leg out, you're limping for the rest of your life.

[A]

I don't, it doesn't, that doesn't bother me. No.

[B]

God, I'm so averse to that.

[A]

It's, it's, I, I, it's like the producer side of me overrides the performer side. It's like, hey, but we're gonna get footage. And it's, it's about as simple as that.

[B]

So you'll still do dangerous shit. You just don't want to do anything.

[A]

I just can't get any concussions. I don't care about.

[B]

Yeah, but how, if you're gonna get, be in a violent situation where you could break an arm or a leg, you easily could get a concussion as well.

[A]

Well, you gotta, well, you gotta assess, Joe.

[B]

Risk assessment. How. What the, does your waivers look like?

[A]

Yeah, I, I, I don't know. It was, you know, on the first movie, they, we, the insurance companies insured it per bit. They didn't insure the whole movie. They just insured it per bit.

[B]

Yeah, that's how they did with Fear Factor as well.

[A]

So some bits costs were. The insurance was gonna be more than the whole first movie, so I can't do those. But after that, you know, we find a shady insurance company and they take care of us.

[B]

Once you started acting, though, and doing big movies did. Wasn't there any part of you was like, okay, I'm done with this?

[A]

No, it's so fun. It's something that I created with my friends. Right, right, right, right. And then there's probably my wires got crossed somehow, and then I learned to like it. I. Look, I would love it. You know, I guess it's like a comedian learning to love bombing, right?

[B]

No one learns to love bombing.

[A]

I really. I've done a couple comedians, and they're like, if you got to learn to, like, love it and basically not fear it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I kind of did that with stunts, I guess. I, like, learned to. I just. I just liked it.

[B]

Wow. You ever talked to a shrink about that?

[A]

Well, while I was doing. I have talked. I know I have a therapist, and I'm like, okay, we can talk about everything in my life, but not the part of me that does stunts. Really? Yeah. Because I didn't want to unwind that. Even though it went sideways quite a few times.

[B]

That's a wild statement. I didn't want to unwind that.

[A]

Yeah. So I've looked into it a little now that I can't get any more concussions. Don't crush my career.

[B]

What is. Yeah, right. What a crazy job for the therapist.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, the one area where you really probably should address.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

You have this, like, overall, what is Johnny Knoxville, what's going on in his head? And there's this one door. Yeah. You can't go in that room.

[A]

Yeah, we can't. Can. The biggest problem we can address. Yeah.

[B]

It's kind of a crazy thing.

[A]

Yeah. Well, again, I should have went to college.

[B]

Do you get annoyed having to answer all these questions all the time about that kind of shit? Because after a while, I would imagine, like, that is the most common thing that people would want to talk to you about, like, how many times you've been hurt? What happened? What is it like?

[A]

No, I don't. I, I mean, I, I, again, I get the joke. What I would be doing if I wasn't doing this. So, yeah, I'm grateful. And so somebody wants to talk about it, let's talk.

[B]

Well, you're obviously a smart guy. I don't buy that you could do anything.

[A]

Well, when I started down this road, this was my best guess. So, you know, it just became something I'm doing. And, yeah, I guess I did want to write, but I incorporate that into the movies.

[B]

It was very strange life, Johnny.

[A]

Yeah, I guess.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Yeah. I kind of created the environment that I grew up in with my father. He owned a tire company, and he had all these crazy characters working for him, like people like Big George, Ass Kicking Robert, this guy SDS named Super Dick, one guy named W.W. woodrow Wilson. Boxcar Johnson Jr. He was the tire groover who was always getting arrested for one thing or another. And he was always pranking these people at work, his people that work for him. He would stage gunfights at Christmas parties.

[B]

What?

[A]

When he did this twice, he. One year at the Christmas party, he gave a couple of the guys, his employees, guns and said, okay, I want you guys to get an argument, and I want to culminate with you pulling out a gun and firing and you pulling out your gun. They were blank guns. And everyone just. It was in a pretty gnarly part of town, too, but everyone just ran out into the streets. Dad was ecstatic. So the next year. So the next year, there are two new employees, and he's like, hey, hey, Merle, come over here. Are you guys. You're going to get in a fight and you're going to start yelling and you're going to pull out of guns, and it's the same gag. So they did it, and they were very excited, and they pulled out the gun, started firing. But dad had given everyone else in the party blank guns. So they started firing back at those goons. Those dudes take off running down the street. So, yeah, just kind of imitating what my father did, I guess.

[B]

Does your father feel any responsibility?

[A]

Dad loved Jackass, but hated the parts where I would do stunts. My whole family did, of course, but they, you know, I just. Doing what I saw growing up, he would send letters to his friends from the VD clinic, rubber stamped on the envelope, saying, you have to list your last 10 partners because you've contracted a venereal disease. Signed, Dr. Harlan C. Titmore. But people would get these letters, or worse, the guy's wife would get the letter. And the thing about something like that, people become angry and emotional, and then they believe Everything. That's the great thing about pranks. If you can get someone so wound up that they're really emotional, they'll believe anything. And so these guys would come home from work and then the mother. Like his wife would be there. The wife's mother would be there. He had a gun pulled on him over that once.

[B]

A real gun?

[A]

Oh, yeah, real guns.

[B]

Your dad sounds like a fucking maniac.

[A]

He would send letters out from the IRS telling people they're going to be audited. He got visited by the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation over that. He didn't do that anymore.

[B]

Well, that makes more sense now. Okay, so you grew up in a very unusual environment.

[A]

Yeah, very unusual.

[B]

How did your dad get started doing shit like that? Was it just.

[A]

I don't know. He just had that personality. He was such a shit starter. He. He should have been in show business is what should have been, but he was from.

[B]

Did you ever think about using him?

[A]

He was in one episode when we're doing the TV show. My mom and him were in the episode. But he. He wrote a couple of bits for Jack. He was like, hey, I want you to do this. And we filmed a couple. See, he loved that. So, yeah, he. I don't know. He didn't know how to go about being in show business. Neither did I either.

[B]

But it seems like he was doing his own. Almost like a local play. He was doing his own version of it for himself.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, for sure. Just to entertain himself.

[B]

I guess you could do that when you're the boss.

[A]

Yeah, he. Like, in high school, I'd be laying on the couch, I took a nap, you know, I was like a junior senior or whatever, and I felt something go through my lips. And he had went and got a hot dog and microwaved it till it was lukewarm and drugged the hot dog through my lips. And then when I woke up, he acted like he was zipping his pants, He thought. And it just. Him laughing at his own joke just made everything. He thought it was the funniest thing. And then, like, you're on board, too. Yeah, he was a character.

[B]

Well, that makes more sense now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I'm like, how does a normal guy dive into something like Jackass? That makes more sense. Yeah. You were sort of indoctrinated at an early age.

[A]

Very early. Some of the.

[B]

That made me the most uncomfortable was the wild boy stuff. Like, Steve O. Showed me a video of him when he climbed a tree and the lions came up the tree and took his hat, which is.

[A]

Which is disrespectful. If you think about it. Just take his hat.

[B]

Fortunate, because if they didn't have the hat, they might have just grabbed his whole head and just dragged him off, you know, I mean, those were actual lions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, they weren't pet lions.

[A]

You're entering into a situation that's unpredictable and kind of hoping for the best is what you're doing.

[B]

And they didn't have any backup plan. I mean, when you're in a tree and the lions go up the tree to get you, there's nothing really anybody could do to help you. By the time if it gets a hold of you, you're dead.

[A]

There's nothing like. Here's an example of the backup plans we have. We're filming Steve O's filming a bit with an alligator on Jackass. And our safety guy, Manny Puig, who dives in swamps at night with the miner's light to pull alligators up to the surface in crocodiles. He's Tarzan. He's Tarzan. He was our safety guy. And it's like, okay, if this goes south, what, what do we do, man? He goes, okay, we, we're going to be doing this stunt with the alligator. And if the alligator grabs a hold of Steve O and bites him, hopefully he will let go. And that was it. That was the whole plan.

[B]

There's no, like, poke him in the eyes. There's no.

[A]

If the gator doesn't want to let go, he's not gonna let go. So.

[B]

Dude.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

The wild animals ones are the nutty one. One of the ones where you guys are playing keep away with hyenas.

[A]

They have the strong, like one of the strongest jaw, the bite in the animal kingdom. Maybe like third or fourth.

[B]

Yeah, there's.

[A]

What are you gonna do? There's nothing you can do. Just hope for the best.

[B]

Yeah. And they have instincts. Like, if you twist your ankle and they see you limping.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I was doing a thing with. We were in Argentina at this zoo and we were like, hey, can I get in with the. The lions? Because there was a couple of keepers in there with it. They're like, yeah, come on in. And. And they're like, but whatever you do, don't trip and fall. I'm like, oh, shit. And so I got on a bike and started riding around the pen. And they're like, if we give you a signal, you gotta. And so I'm riding around the pen, they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Get out. Get off.

[B]

Get up.

[A]

Cause the lion Locked in on me and was about to attack me and they hurried me out of the pen. And afterwards they're like, yeah, that was the first time anyone asides from us has been in the pen with them. And it's also ma very aggressive. I'm like, well, I wish he'd have told me that before I got in there. Well, I still would have went in there, but it was a real half ass type of situation.

[B]

It's just like you guys just have avoided death over and over and over again.

[A]

Yeah, we've been lucky.

[B]

But like that's a up way to go through life, I guess.

[A]

But philosophically, I don't know, man, it just, that's what we're doing.

[B]

And for sure you entertain the. Out of millions and millions of people who laugh their asses off and had a great time watching. I get, I don't know why, but I get anxiety. I have a really hard time watching those things. Yeah, I avoid them. Like a lot of my friends, like we're going to see Jackass. I'm like, I don't, I can't, I get freaked out. I don't want anybody to get hurt. It's weird.

[A]

Yeah, I, I feel that way when like one of the guys is doing something like pretty gnarly. I, I'm not ecstatic over watching something that could have a forever consequence. But with me, I, I don't know, I'm just like, let's go. I just, it's, I just, it's fun.

[B]

I know, but even after you have a family and you have to, you know, you have kids that are watching their dad get up.

[A]

Well, that's the thing. I wouldn't, I didn't want my kids to see that, you know, but they had to at a certain age. Like I didn't let my oldest daughter, she could watch things with Wee man or this or that and. But I didn't let her come to a movie until she was 14. I made her sit right next to me and I said, madison, there are. Sometimes you have to close your eyes, sometimes cover your ears, and sometimes both. And I had the list of bits and so it was, I censored it even then. But now it's the Internet, it's a fucking free for all.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I guess my younger kids, I think, you know, they saw it a little earlier. I get with. I only showed my son like a year ago and my daughter reaction that he was on board. My youngest daughter, she thought a lot of things were funny, but I don't know, I Guess I don't know what. How she felt because they only. My youngest only saw the first Jackass movie, which is pretty tame compared to the others. Looking back, it's pretty innocent. Even though Ryan Dunn shoved a car up his ass to get an X ray. A little toy car. Did you see that bit?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, that one worked.

[B]

Do you worry that they're gonna fall in your footsteps?

[A]

No.

[B]

No.

[A]

Well, I have daughters and they're just naturally more bright, you know, and my son, like, he. He will joke about it like to his mom that he's going, but he's not going to. He's. He's bright too. They have. They have options. I had. I didn't see a lot of options for myself.

[B]

It's weird that you said that, like, your daughters are bright because girls are definitely more risk averse and like ridiculous situations like that.

[A]

Think things through.

[B]

I have a way harder time watching girls get hurt.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I don't. I don't. We had a girl on the show. She like, like broke her lower back. She was doing a thing. We're doing a. Just a. It was a pretty tame stunt going compared to the ones we do. She was going down like it was grass, but it was like a big hill on a. Like some kind of rubber raft. And she had her lav mic on her lower back and she came off and that was the impact area and for the longest. And it really was a bummer for everybody, you know, And I'm like, I don't. Didn't have. We didn't have a female cast member for a long time.

[B]

What was the extensive extent?

[A]

It was. It was. She was in the hospital for a little bit. She's fine now. I just saw her at the Jackass art show in November and she's fine, but it sucked.

[B]

You had a Jackass art show?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. For. Because it was our 25th anniversary last year. And I'm like, let's have an art show and have. We have some cast members and crew members who are good artists. And I'm like, let's reach out to some big artists to see if they'll do it. And we did. It's the first time I ever curated an art show. And I was like, fuck, I'm gonna reach out to Damien Hurst to see if he'll do it. And he ended up doing 10 pieces of art for was. I was like, wow. You know, I was really blown away by the good vibes and that we got from everyone over it. Yeah.

[B]

Because you guys didn't just Create a show. You know, you created, like, a chapter in modern pop culture history, really, because it became one of the most entertaining things ever and one of the most ridiculous things ever.

[A]

Wow. Yeah, that's tough to. I never really walked down those roads. Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I appreciate you saying that, though, but it's. It's. It's odd, you know, to entertain that thought of it, especially if you see me and Tremaine sitting around writing ideas. You're like, these two idiots did that. Like, if you could see how we shoot. It's just you. It's amazing we get any footage at all. Joe. Jeff Ross came out with this on Jackass Number two. We're doing some bit and some prank with me and Spike as old people. And me and Spike would. We would, like, hit bus stops and anywhere where there's people, but we would jump out and start doing pranks before the cameras even arrived. And it was driving Jeff insane. He's like, you guys shoot a movie like it's a pickup basketball game. And he just roasted us for about five minutes straight. And it was all accurate. It's like. It's amazing we get any footage.

[B]

Yeah. But, like, that's the spirit of it, is that you're doing it for fun. So you would be doing it if the cameras were on or not. You're doing it for yourselves as much as you're doing it for the camera.

[A]

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

[B]

Which is why it's so good.

[A]

I don't know how to make, like, other people laugh. Right. If I'm writing a bit, I don't. That would freeze me. But I know how to make my friends laugh. And if they're laughing, I think we may have something. And that's. That's the only bellwether. Like, if you do something, like in the magic trick with the bull. We did that twice. Because the first time, the first bull just came and didn't really knock me up in the air. It just got me on the ground and just started plowing me, stomping me. And I got up and everyone was looking at me like. I'm like, all right. I looked at Jeff and he's like. I'm like, all right, bring the other bull in. That sucks. Take two with bulls always sucks. You're hoping you get that first one.

[B]

Oh, God. The things with the animals are the ones I think that freak me out the most. So Wild Boys was the hardest one for me to watch. I really struggled with that show.

[A]

Yeah. The one that I Jeff and I got in a half argument over. I was in Arkansas shooting the riot control test. Me, Bam and Dunn were standing in front of the riot control, shoots like 10,000 hard rubber beads at you. We were shooting that and they were in New Orleans about to go out and put a hook through Steve O's jaw, chum up the waters and cast him out to the water with sharks. I'm like, what are we doing, Jeff? What's the best possible outcome here? He's like, oh, no, no, it's fine, it's fine. I'm like, we're going to get his foot bit off. It's fine. And it ended up being fine. But I was questioning the bit. And it's a great bit. The shark goes to bite his foot and Steve O kicks him at the last second and scares the shark away. Yeah, it was just dumb luck.

[B]

And he had a hook through his mouth.

[A]

Yeah, it was, it was like a big jimmy. Oh, you're not gonna look at that.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

It took him like 15 minutes to get that hook through his mouth. And the thing about it, they shot it the day before and it didn't go good. So there's a hole on the other side of his jaw too. You just can't see it.

[B]

This is so fucking stupid.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

[B]

Oh, my God, dude.

[A]

Yes. He's. Oh, yeah. It was going for him and then he kicks it and got him back in it. That would have been bad. That had been forever. Bad old peg leg Steve O.

[B]

And he's like mentoring young guys that are doing it too. Like last time he was on, he was showing. Yeah. Let me show you this one guy that I'm hanging out with.

[A]

Yeah, dude.

[B]

He's got. This guy's running through barbed wire. I'm like, what the fuck? This guy's radical. He's covering himself in firecrackers. I'm like, no.

[A]

Oh, I know. That's Zach. We got him in the cast. He. Yeah, he's. He's pretty up for it.

[B]

How bad is he? Fucked up?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, have you seen. He got a. He was doing some trick on a skateboard and he's a. He was a rather Ruben esque young fellow and he just compound fractured his ankle. He. I don't think you would like that.

[B]

When it all popped through the skin, the whole deal.

[A]

I'm not sure it popped through the skin, but it was, it was doing things that ankles shouldn't do.

[B]

What a weird life you've lived, dude. Yeah, very strange.

[A]

It's Been okay?

[B]

Yeah. No, I mean, look, you're fine.

[A]

Yeah. No, it's odd. I get it. I get it.

[B]

What are you laughing at, Jamie? I just saw the injury here. Let me see. Okay, here he goes. And.

[A]

Oh, I guess that was more. His shin is.

[B]

Oh, that's his tibia. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's the Conor McGregor right there on Instagram.

[A]

The Joe Theisman.

[B]

Yeah, that's the. Yeah. Anderson Silva. I've seen a few of those. Those are the most painful things I've ever seen in UFC fights.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Things that really bother me are the. The leg breaks when someone throws a kick and the kick gets checked and you see their leg like. Like wrap around the shin.

[A]

The Anderson Silva one was very disturbing.

[B]

Oh, that was hard. It's crazy. Like, it's only happened four times in the history of MMA or in the history of the ufc, and two of them involve Chris Weidman. One, Chris Weidman did it to Anderson Silva, where Anderson Silver broke his leg, and then Chris Weidman broke his leg in the exact same way against Uriah Hall.

[A]

Oh, I don't know if I saw the one against Uriah hall.

[B]

So loud. Because what he did was, it was the first kick he threw. It was the first round of the fight. He threw a full power low kick, and Uriah checked it.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And you hear it just snap. Do the headphones work? Can we hear it? They're still fucked. Good, good. You don't need to hear it, but here it is. Full power.

[A]

Correct. Oh, whoa, whoa.

[B]

And then he puts his foot down.

[A]

That doesn't. That doesn't look real.

[B]

Yeah, he was never the same again.

[A]

Yeah. You can't come back from that, right?

[B]

No, he. I mean, guys, they don't really come back the. You know, Conor McGregor hasn't fought again since. I mean, he's throwing kicks with it. I've seen him spar with it. I don't. I mean, I. There's a one guy who is a heavyweight in the PFL that apparently came back and continued his career after he. So you can find who that guy is. There's a heavyweight guy was in the PFL that snapped his shin like that and then came back and kept fighting. Weidman's have some fights since then, and he's actually even thrown that kick since then. Yeah, but I don't think you're the same.

[A]

Yeah, that would mentally get to you.

[B]

Well, one leg now weighs more.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

Even if it's titanium, there's. There's more. There's screws, there's A bunch of in there. And then, and I've got to think that it feels different. There's no way. And then there's the psychological thing, like you've already been through. I mean, I think Chris had to go through some insane amount of surgeries, multiple surgeries, to try to correct it and to fix it, because it didn't take right the first time, because, you know, you're, you're hoping the bones grow back together. You got a rod and then screws, and then you're hoping the bone fuses all around it. And in some circumstances, they have to make a decision whether or not they go back in another time and take all the supporting stuff out and just have your bone exist normally.

[A]

Yeah. And you don't want. And then it's like the risk of infection.

[B]

Oh, yeah. It's, it's, it's gnarly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. That's. I have the hardest time, but I have a harder time watching women get up than I do men. You know, sexist in me or whatever it is.

[A]

But, but the UFC fights with women. They, they go for it. I mean, the men go for it, but it just seems like the women are just extra aggressive.

[B]

Well, it just seems crazier when they're doing it, when they're beating the fuck out of each other for whatever reason. Like, there's a fight that happened at the UFC Sphere, when they did it at the Sphere in Vegas, we had one event there, and there's this lady, Irini Aldana, who's a beast, and, and she got a cut in her forehead that I can't believe. The referee didn't stop the fight because it looked like someone hit her in the face with an axe. Like, her entire forehead was split wide open. Blood was pouring out of her face, and she's just. That's it right there.

[A]

Look at that. Oh, my goodness.

[B]

And she's marching forward, throwing bombs, where blood is, like, splattering, like blood splattering with every punch that lands on her face. And she's moving forward, throwing. But it was crazy.

[A]

Yeah. She's a warrior.

[B]

Oh, my God. I mean, that's the beginning of the cut. The cut got even worse than that. It was horrible at the end. It was massive. It had to be like a 6 inch cut on her forehead.

[A]

That, that's, that's insane.

[B]

Well, you could, like, see the whole skull.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, when I was interviewing her, when I was talking to her after the fight, you could see her whole skull was, like, exposed.

[A]

Yeah, I, I, you know, when we're talking about the last. Doing Jackass Forever. We're talking about getting new cast members and talking about bringing on.

[B]

Yeah, look at that.

[A]

Some females.

[B]

Look how crazy that is.

[A]

And I was a little. That's insane.

[B]

Insane.

[A]

That's insane. And I was a little hesitant. And then my assistant Megan, and I'm talking to other. They're like, look, look, guys do it. It's like, women can do it. And I was forced to address it and let go of it. And I'm like, all right, who was.

[B]

Saying, guys do it? Women can do it. Was it a guy or a girl?

[A]

No, my assistant Megan and a couple of other friends that are women, and they're just like, you got to stop looking at it that way. And I said, all right. And I just moved forward, and we got Rachel Wolfson, and she was fantastic.

[B]

I love Rachel. She's at the club.

[A]

She's the best.

[B]

She's fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cool chick.

[A]

Yeah, she's great.

[B]

Did. Is there a photo of a rainy Aldana's face now? See what it looks like? It's all healed up. It bothers me, man.

[A]

Did she? How. How many.

[B]

That's not real. That's a filter. That's Instagram filter, dog.

[A]

There's no way that's an avatar.

[B]

That's what she looks like now after the scar.

[A]

That's an avatar. Right?

[B]

Well, it's not possible that.

[A]

That.

[B]

That went away. See Google or run a search of Rainey Aldana after the surgery. Yeah, but that's all. You can't.

[A]

Well, there's makeup. I don't know.

[B]

Makeup and filter. That's like. That's what she. Okay, there you go. There you go.

[A]

You can see.

[B]

Go back there. So again, you can kind of see.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. When the light hits it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Right there. Yeah. Wow.

[A]

It looks pretty good. I mean, you can see it, but it gives her character.

[B]

Well, for a man. For a man, that's pretty dope, right? I don't know.

[A]

I think. I don't. It looks like she's pretty okay with everything.

[B]

She's a beast.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's an unusual woman that is not just willing to do that and get her face cut open like that, but also, like, march forward in a mask of blood, like a horror movie, throwing bombs. And she was cut over her eye. Her nose was split open, giant gash in her forehead, and just marching forward.

[A]

So they did. And who. And she was fighting.

[B]

Who is she fighting?

[A]

And did they have a rematch? Because I assume the judge.

[B]

The.

[A]

The Referee called it.

[B]

No, no, it went. The decision. Yeah, she lost a decision.

[A]

The doctor, they go over, the doctor, he looks at, he's like, ah, you'll never notice on a galloping horse. Get back in there.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know what the referee was thinking. Because referees have stopped fights for less injuries. Oh, yeah, it's very subjective.

[A]

Usually when it goes from your eyebrow to the top of your skull, it's very subjective.

[B]

Like one referee or one doctor will say, let it go. And then another doctor will go, it's over. And if the doctor says it's over, it's over.

[A]

But a referee inspected it when it went and split up her head.

[B]

Oh, yeah, they wiped it down. They allowed her to continue. Yeah, she. She got cut.

[A]

And who is that referee who looked at and said, yeah, you're fine. Get back in there, kid.

[B]

See if you can find video of it.

[A]

Look at her nose. The nose would have stopped the fight.

[B]

Nose is destroyed. Forehead's destroyed. I don't remember what she got hit with. Most likely an elbow that did that. Who is she fighting? Norma Dumont. Norma Dumont. Norma Dumont's a beast, too.

[A]

And who won?

[B]

Norma did. Norma won. But what did she, like? See if you can find a video of it. The video of it is gnarly because, like. And we're freaking out because we're doing the commentary. I'm like, oh, my God, this lady is a savage.

[A]

What round did that happen in?

[B]

That's a good question. I want. I want to say it was the second round, but I don't know. What did you just have? You just had it. Game. Oh, it's a video game. The video games are so good, you can't tell the difference.

[A]

Fight in the video game.

[B]

Yeah, it's. But again, it's. I don't know why. It's like, when a woman gets knocked out, it bugs me way more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm so used to guys getting knocked out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When a guy gets knocked down, I'm like, I hope he's okay. But when a woman gets knocked out, it's like, my stomach turns. I'm like. I just. You're sitting there in your commentary chair, you're just like, oh, man. When someone gets shinned in the head, just bang. And you see them stiffen up. Like, there's something about a woman getting knocked out that. I don't know why. Yeah, it's part my. My brain is like, no.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm so used to men getting knocked out.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I mean, looks like I Mean, you've. You've seen a lot of fights.

[B]

I've probably seen more people get the beaten out of them than anybody who's ever lived.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In person, like in person, watching elite fighters smash each other, I've probably seen more people get pummeled than anybody.

[A]

Yeah. I wonder the number of knockouts you've seen.

[B]

Oh, it has to be in the thousands. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how many fights I've called. I've started doing commentary. Well, I started doing post fight interviews in 1997.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah, so that was the first. I worked at UFC 12 in 1997. Now we're at like UFC 324, so. And I've been there for a large percentage of them.

[A]

I hate to pivot, but what do you think of Fedor?

[B]

I love him. I love him. He's one of the all time greats. He was one of my favorite fighters of all time. He's the great. The great tragedy is Fedor never fought in the UFC against Cain, Velasquez, because they were both in their prime at the exact same time, and they could have made that happen.

[A]

I love Fedor. Like the Pride fights Tremaine and I would, we'd all get. Every time the Pride fights were on, we'd always watch Fedor and dude, he was stoic.

[B]

I mean, stoic like dead face. No matter what was going on, it could be the most chaotic, insane fight. Getting blasted in the face. Never change his expression. Like a fucking robot.

[A]

Before the fight, all the fighters are jumping up and down, looking around, and he looks like he's about to fall asleep.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, he was amazing. His mindset was fucking impenetrable.

[A]

Remember when Kevin Randleman suplexed him?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And I've never seen someone get suplexed on their head and not only push through it, but he submitted him pretty soon afterwards, right?

[B]

Yeah, he got him in an armbar, like very shortly after that.

[A]

That still doesn't make any sense to me.

[B]

Oh, he was a freak. He was a freak. Man, look at his face. Look how calm he looks. Yeah, here it is. So he gets slammed.

[A]

Oh, my goodness.

[B]

And just rolls. Just rolls right into it. I mean, that was. That could have knocked most people completely unconscious. Could have separated your vertebrae.

[A]

And look, he's still. Look how strong.

[B]

And he reversed the position like seconds later.

[A]

And Randleman was good on the ground.

[B]

Oh, yeah, Randleman was a world class wrestler, but look at that beast. But Fedor Was special, man. He was special. And this is like Random's wearing wrestling shoes, too. He was allowed to wear wrestling shoes. Pride had a lot of crazy rules.

[A]

That left of Fedor's.

[B]

Oh, everything, man. Everything. He was the most complete. So he pins down the arm, and he eventually catches him. I think he caught him in the a. In a Kimura. A Kimura or a straight arm lock. It might have been. Yeah, here it is. He caught him in a Kimura. Here it is.

[A]

I mean, that's insane.

[B]

Insane.

[A]

Within a minute, he.

[B]

He turned it around. Well, he was the most complete out of all those guys, because he was. He was a guy that could fight you standing up at an elite level, but also in any kind of wild scramble, he would catch an armbar off of his back, he would submit you on the ground. He could throw you. He could do everything. He was the most complete out of all of the heavyweights of his era.

[A]

Yeah. I remember when he was fighting Nogueira, I was like, oh, no, this is. It could go south for Fedor.

[B]

And you thought so.

[A]

Yeah, I was. I was worried.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, because I, you know, you, like, you look up to a fighter and you're like, he can't lose. I don't want him to lose. And I was worried about Nogueira. But he beat him twice, right?

[B]

Yeah. And they were brutal. The ground and pounds were. Were brutal when he was on top of Nogara, just bombing on.

[A]

Yeah. I'm like, fedor, don't go to the ground with Nogara, because I'm just worried. Unlike his aunt or something. But he. No problem.

[B]

No, he was. He was awesome, you know, but there's a time where a fighter can operate under that peak form, and it's a short window, you know, And I always say when you're looking at the greatest of all time, you have to look at them in that peak window. You can't look at them when they're fighting in their late 30s and they probably shouldn't be fighting anymore. Yeah, you gotta. You gotta judge them based on who they were in their prime, because every combat sport athlete has a limited amount of time where they can operate in their prime.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Fedor in his prime was about as good as anybody who ever lived.

[A]

I love hearing you say that.

[B]

Yeah. Because I act really fucking amazing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's like when we had Kane in the ufc. Cain Velasquez, who was another superhuman freak, also super stoic, which is go. And had cardio. Like, no heavyweight ever. Like, freakish. God given Cardio.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they'd call him Cardiocane because he would just put a pace on guys. Well, you'd see the look on their face. And it was like the second round, like, I can't do this.

[A]

Yeah. And he's just ready to go, just.

[B]

Not even out of breath. Just smashing you over and over and over again, picking you up, slamming you down. Like what he did to Brock Lesnar. And Brock Lesnar was fucking terrifying. He was a 300 pound man who was built like a Viking. Like he just hopped off of a fucking ship with a battle axe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Kane beat the fuck out of him.

[A]

I know that. That was an amazing fight. And I watched Brock Lesnar body slam Wee man through a table at a restaurant one night. It was one of the best things.

[B]

Was that on Jackass?

[A]

No, no, we were, we were there to do. I was going to do WrestleMania, I believe it was WrestleMania against that lowdown and dirty Sami Zayn. And we're at the restaurant, I think we're at the Four Seasons in their restaurant and we all had a couple of drinks and Brock just comes by, he's leaving. He comes by to say goodbye, you know, and Wee man gets a little chatty. Wee man got a mouth on him. So Brock just scoops him up like a baby and he goes, you're going through that table and just lifts him up over his head and bam, right through the table. It was one of the best things I've ever seen. Just it looked like one of those tables in an old west bar fight. Yeah, this is it. He's like, no, we missed. Like, no, no.

[B]

Oh, Jesus Christ. That's a regular table too.

[A]

Oh, yeah. That's what you get for talking shit to Brock Lesnar. It doesn't really compute in his head.

[B]

I don't think Brock is a guy that like, you know, he was NCAA Division 1 national champion, like elite wrestler. I always wondered what would happen with him if he didn't go into pro wrestling for so long. If he just went into MMA right out of his college career. I think he could have been one of the all time great.

[A]

What are you going to do with that guy if he's been training for that long?

[B]

Well, he didn't train much in striking at all. Like, you could tell in the early days his striking was, you know, he was learning it. Obviously an elite athlete, a freak of nature physically, but he was still learning striking. And striking is something takes a long time to really get a mastery of. Oh, yeah, he wasn't, you know, so He. It was just. And he didn't need the money, didn't need to do it. Was already a giant pro wrestling star. Could have just stayed Brock Lesnar, but just decided, I want to see what would happen if I fight for real.

[A]

He liked it, and he beat a.

[B]

Lot of really good guys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is kind of crazy. I mean, beat Randy Couture, who's an all time great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He beat Frank Mere, who's, you know, an all time great.

[A]

He's a freak athlete.

[B]

Oh, he's horrific. Horrific dude.

[A]

Who's the young guy? Gable Stevenson.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think he's a problem. His striking looks good.

[B]

Problem.

[A]

His striking looks good.

[B]

He's a giant problem because he's a 250 pound man that moves like 150 pound man. He's so fucking fast and so athletic for a big guy. And elite wrestling skills. I mean, gold medalist in the Olympics. A wrestling skills that. That kind of wrestling skill is like, so hard to with. Yeah, he's got that and ridiculous power and speed in his hands. And just this. There's a mindset that, like, some guys have, like, elite athletes have this, like, unstoppable drive and discipline.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And he's got that. And, like, he's gonna be. I sent Dana White a text message because he had an MMA fight and hit this dude with a left hook. And then as the dude's going out, he slams him to the ground. He landed the punch, and he had enough speed to close the distance and fucking slam him to the ground while he's unconscious from the punch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I sent Dana White a text to myself. I said, everybody's fucked. I just sent him that clip.

[A]

I sent him. I sent Dana the same clip. Did you really? Dana, what. What are we doing here?

[B]

Gable's the first guy that I've ever had. Had in the studio that isn't even in the UFC yet, that always has had, like, a couple fights where I was like, I want to have this guy on right away. Like, look at that. Like, so that speed is so insane. Look at. That's this, the transition between he kos him with a left hook, and then look at this. Just hops to the top of the octagon.

[A]

But go back to the knockout, because look at the guy when he's on. You can see the birdies flying around his head in that one angle on the opposite angle.

[B]

I mean, that is crazy. Speed and then blast him with a punch all before the referee can even get to him. That dude's like, what the. Just Happened. Yeah, he has a hard time getting fights that's. He'll probably be in the UFC quicker than he should be because no one wants to fight him. It's on the regional circuit, the smaller promotions. Very difficult to get a guy like that a fight because you can't beat him. You know, you can't be. So if you're. You got to be the type of guy, like, almost like you are with stunts, like, all right, yeah, let's do it.

[A]

Yeah, let's see what happens.

[B]

Because you're not fast enough to avoid the punches, you're not skillful enough to stop the takedown. You can't do anything about it. Once he's on top of you, you're not getting back up. You're just gonna get pummeled. Like, what are you gonna do? And some guys are just so gangster, they're like, let's see how I do.

[A]

You're just standing in front of a culture.

[B]

Most guys are gonna not fight. You're gonna get that offer and you're gonna go, fuck that. I wanna be a world class fighter someday. I gotta get better. There's no way I'm gonna get better. If I fight that guy, I realize how tall the mountain actually is that I'm supposed to climb.

[A]

But to any prospective fighters of Gable Stevenson out there who maybe don't wanna fight them, take it from me, it doesn't take that long to get knocked out. It's gonna be an easy night. You know, it's going, what, 15 seconds of your time?

[B]

That's not the problem. The problem is. So, like in boxing, okay, this is a good. So boxing has always traditionally done a way better job of preparing fighters for world class fighters. So even Mike Tyson, who was a phenom in his prime, he fought a bunch of journeymen in the beginning.

[A]

Mitch Blood Green.

[B]

Well, he was good. Mitch Blood Green was good. Mitch Blood Green went to decision.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, he was a gang leader.

[A]

And not just crazy.

[B]

No, in the street fight, Mike fucked him up, but he also broke his hand in the street fight, in a haberdashery in Harlem, which is crazy.

[A]

Slipped into the literation.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, they fought in a haberdasher. They fought in a place where you make. Get custom suits made.

[A]

And why wouldn't you?

[B]

Why wouldn't you? So that fight was like, Mitch Blood Green was a. He was a real pro, he was a real elite fighter. You want. But you go to the early days of Mike Tyson, where he's fighting guys that have fucking zero business Being in there with him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And these guys just took the payday and just got knocked into orbit. And those fights are some of the most fun fights to watch because you realize you're dealing with a guy who's going to be one of the all time greats. You're getting to see him when he's 19 and no one had any idea what was coming. You know, like some of his first fights, people had heard rumblings. There's this kid out of the Catskills, everybody talked about it, but until you saw him, you're just like, oh, God, Good Lord.

[A]

Just all business too.

[B]

All business, no socks, just the towel.

[A]

With the hole in it.

[B]

And it just, it was throwback.

[A]

Yeah, it was. But there was never a throwback fighter like that had just a towel over, you know, his head walking into the ring.

[B]

Well, you'd have to go back to like the Jack Dempsey days, which Tyson did see. Tyson had this advantage that his manager was Jim Jacobs and Jim Jacobs was a boxing historian. And so Jim Jacobs had all these films of all the old school fighters, Sandy Sadler, Willie Pep.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so Mike would just sit and watch all these great fighters, all the old school guys, all the old Joe Louis fights on film. You know, all the Sugar Ray Robinson.

[A]

Fights, which they're not a lot on film. I wish there were because we never have prime Sugar Ray Robinson and like there's not a lot of films.

[B]

Well, you can watch them on YouTube.

[A]

But I don't think like prime, prime. I think after a certain.

[B]

Oh, no, there's some prime Sugar Ray Robinson. Yeah, you could watch some great sugar A. Robinson kos that are on. Yeah, he was another guy. I mean, I think he had like 90 fights. I think he was like something like 90. And oh, before he had his first.

[A]

Loss and then he went another 40 fights before he lost the second.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

Insane, but crazy.

[B]

And they were fighting all the time back then. Yeah, those guys would fight multiple times in a year. It wasn't like today where, you know, guys will, like Canelo and Crawford, they talk about it like Crawford hadn't had a fight in like a year and a half. Like. Yeah, it wasn't like that back then.

[A]

They're fighting a few times a month.

[B]

Constantly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But also, you know, then the end is so sad because in the end Sugar Ray Robinson had dementia and it's like he couldn't talk. There's some interviews of him later in life that are really, really fucking sad. Yeah, so that's the thing about a guy fighting Gableson Gable Stevenson, it's not that Gable's gonna beat you, and getting knocked out is not that bad. It's that your confidence is gonna be destroyed and you will get knocked out easier next time. Which is the problem with getting knocked out.

[A]

Yeah, the glass. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can attest to that.

[B]

Is it to happen to you now, like, will you get KO'd easier?

[A]

I get my knockouts. I got knocked out easier. Yeah. It's the old glass jaw.

[B]

You noticed the difference?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I could watch the impacts afterwards, and that might not have got me five or six years ago, but now it's just go out. Yeah.

[B]

How many times do you think you've been KO'd?

[A]

About 16.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And.

[B]

That'S a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Have you ever gotten, like, brain scans done and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What do they say?

[A]

Well, they're, you know, they're not the best brain scans they ever looked at. I didn't win any awards for my brain scan, Joe. They're like, don't get any more concussions.

[B]

But did they say there's anything going on there that you need to be concerned about?

[A]

Well, they don't know about. You know, you can't detect CTE until postmortem.

[B]

Right. But do you have any lingering issues, like memory issues, impulse control?

[A]

The. I can. Well, I don't know whether it's I'm getting older or I can remember a lot of, like, things from four year, like, from my childhood and that kind of thing. I have complete recall. But what I did a week ago, you know, it's. It's up. It's up in the air.

[B]

And do you think that's connected to the head injuries or is it just like aging? Because as you get older.

[A]

Well, there's the million dollar question.

[B]

Right. So you seem okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is part of the problem. Like, I know a lot of fighters that seem fine, but I know publicly or privately, they're struggling. Yeah, I know they have, like, issues, you know?

[A]

Yeah, I'm. I. After that. That with the magician one, I kind of went offline for a few months, but I. I completely recovered.

[B]

Went offline? Like, how so?

[A]

Just slowly, over a period of months, I just got super depressed and anxious and fearful of everything just in my mind, it was just a loop of everything bad is going to happen is catastrophic. Thinking and ruminating and. Yeah, it was. My creative mind turned against me. Right. And it was. It was frightening. It felt like you're in the bottom of a well looking up. And eventually I got on some medication and what kind of medication they give you for that. Oh, shit. I can't remember. But after a couple of months on. Or actually about. About four to six weeks on the medication, the colors came back and I started feeling like myself again.

[B]

Did you lose sight of colors? Did you get color blown?

[A]

No, that was just metaphorically. Yeah. And then I went off the medicine and I'm fine, but it was. Yeah, it was pretty intense.

[B]

So did they do anything for that? Like, I know there's some different therapies they do for people that have.

[A]

I did a thing. A transcranial magnetic stimulation.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you about.

[A]

And I started that. And it was kind of. I was in the middle of my episode and I started that. You do it over, like, six to eight weeks. I can't remember. And I remember at the first, I would start it and I talked to the guy running it, but by the end, the end of the eight weeks, I was just kind of. I wouldn't look at him, I wouldn't talk to him. And, yeah, I was just completely in my head all the time.

[B]

So it got worse progressively then?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah, it got worse. But, yeah, the. Just medication and I came out of it.

[B]

Well, I'm glad you came out of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that's a good reason to not do that kind of shit anymore.

[A]

That's why I was like, I can't. I don't. I. It was.

[B]

It's too much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Well, that's what I worry about with fighters. Because, like, listen, you and I are sitting here, we're talking. You're not slurring your words. You seem fine. Everything seems. There's fighters that. You see the slurring and you see the mumbling of the words, and yet they're still fighting.

[A]

Yeah, that's like. Like Ollie at the end.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

When he's doing those interviews around the Leon Spinks fights and. Oh, yeah, you know, even Larry Holmes was sparring with them. They. They could notice. Oh, yeah. Notice the difference.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

But he's like you. How do you. It's tough to figure out how to. He has a certain spirit about him. And how do you outrun that, which.

[B]

Made him a champion?

[A]

Yeah. And how do you outrun that? How do you put that light out? And that's the problem.

[B]

I think you have to plant that seed in a fighter's head. When they're young, I don't think you could tell them that this is going to be a ride that lasts forever. I think you have to tell Them there's going to be a time where we realize we have to stop this. We have to stop doing this. And you're going to have to trust me because I'm on the outside and I'm going to watch you very carefully. We're going to make sure that you never get to a point where you're. I like a fighter that retires and they can talk and they're fine and they're good. Like, I like that. I like when a guy gets out. Like, Andre Ward is one of my favorite fighters because not just was he a two division world champion, not only was like, he an elite boxer, but he retired undefeated and never came back. And now he's fine. He does commentary. You're hanging out with him. He's got no lingering problems. He's good. Like, he got off the right time. I like that.

[A]

Yeah. I often think, what. Where would. It's a little sort of a pivot. Where would Roy Jones be junior be ranked if he retired after the Ruiz fight, after he became heavyweight champion?

[B]

It's a very good question. I think that was one of the biggest mistakes that he ever did, was going up to heavyweight and then going down to 175 again to fight.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because he wasn't a heavyweight. That was fat. It wasn't like he could lose 25 pounds of extra fat that he put on. No. He was shredded at 200 pounds and then lost 25 pounds of muscle. So he had to starve himself to get back down to 75 again. Because once your body gets accustomed to carry around all that extra weight, like that's your new frame, and today, they would never say, do that again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like in the ufc, there's been some guys that had some radical weight cuts, like Alex Pereira is probably the best example. But once he went down to 185, he was cutting a tremendous amount of weight to get to 85. But once he went up to 205, now he's a 205er. He stays at 205. And now he's even talking about going up to heavyweight, which is crazy.

[A]

Right?

[B]

But he's got the frame for it. But, like, if he went all the way up to heavyweight and then tried to go all the way down to 85 again, he would be so fragile. You're so vulnerable. If you get hit, the guys who dehydrate themselves significantly, they get KO'd way easier.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And guys will tell you that, like, when they cut the weight, they can't take a punch. It's just different because your brain doesn't rehydrate in time. So if you're re dehydrating to make, let's say, 170. If you're dehydrated to make 170, but you really weigh 200, you can get down to 170 for the weight. But once you rehydrate and you're 200 again for the fight, you're. You don't have water in your brain yet. Yeah, your brain's not re. Brain takes days before it completely rehydrates or it's dangerous. It's very dangerous.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. But so that's the thing. It's like you're talking about all the problems that you have, but yet you're sitting here, you're not slurring your words, you're laughing, you're coherent. We're having a good time. And now think about these guys that you see that start mumbling and their words all kind of slur together and they go by survivors.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's weird. You have a hard time understanding them fits of rage. Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They 100% should not be fighting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And yet they're still fighting. And athletic commissions will even pass them.

[A]

Is this Vandalay Silva still fight? Does he slur?

[B]

Dude, Vandalay Silva just had a boxing match in Brazil that turned into a brawl. So. So he was boxing this guy and the bunch of people jumped into the ring and started brawling and one of the guys that jumped in the ring KO'd him, hit him with a bare knuckle punch and knocked him out cold, where he falls back and bounces and they have to drag him out the ring. So while people are. There's a melee, there's like 10 people fighting inside the ring and he's stretched out cold here. Watch it, Jimmy. Trying to find a good ver.

[A]

He.

[B]

You find it.

[A]

He was amazing in the pride fight.

[B]

He was a warrior, a savage. He was so crazy. But that, that's another guy that's been KO'd so many times. I don't speak Portuguese, but my friends who do say you can clearly tell the difference. So here's the fight. So this is afterwards. Boom.

[A]

Oh, my God. The back of the canvas.

[B]

This guy just cracks him with a right hand. He doesn't even see it coming. And he's out cold, flat on his back. And then they just have to drag him away from all these people fighting.

[A]

Oh, that's sad.

[B]

He's dead.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah. And again, this is a guy that's he got knocked out by Mirko CRO Cop. He got head kicked, KO'd. He got knocked out by Rampage Jackson. He got knocked out by some big fucking scary shots.

[A]

CRO Cop had legs like Earl Campbell. They were just ridiculous looking.

[B]

Yeah, no, he was, he was one of the most elite strikers that ever competed mma. He was a terrifying dude. That's the stare down between Vanderlei Silva and Mirko CRO Cop, in my opinion is the greatest stare down in the history of combat sports. Because you've got a guy who in Vanderle Silva is one of the most intimidating, terrifying MMA fighters that ever lived. But then in Mirko CRO Cop, you got a guy who's ahead of an anti terrorist squadron who's probably murdered people. Like, look, look. Look at the difference. That motherfucker ain't scared of shit. Look at this stare down.

[A]

Neither one of them are scared.

[B]

Yeah, I think feeling it a little. Yeah. That guy's looking through to his, his soul. Mirko is this 100. Mirko wins this stare down. Mirko was looking through to his soul, dude.

[A]

Oh my goodness.

[B]

That is a stare down, son. Look at his eyes. That is a serious man.

[A]

And I mean, Mirko, that ref's got his hands full.

[B]

Oh, yeah, well, they always had their hands full in Pride because they had stomps and soccer kicks and it was a crazy organization.

[A]

Did they test in Pride?

[B]

No. Not only did they not test well, they did test. They didn't do anything. It was a fake test.

[A]

You get an A plus on steroids.

[B]

Ensign Inouye is another legend and just one of the all time greats and a pioneer of MMA from the early days. Ensign told me when he did the podcast, he said they had in all capital letters, we do not test for steroids.

[A]

Like they wanted you on steroids or growth hormone.

[B]

They wanted you on it because look, if you want excitement and you don't have a sanctioning body, like why would you. Your, your goal is to create the best product. Like what's the best product? But you juiced up psychopaths beat the out of each other. Highly skilled, juiced up savages going to war. That's what you want. You don't want anybody who's dealing with normal hormone levels that so they would encourage people.

[A]

I, I don't, I didn't hear any rumors of Fedor doing that. Do you think Fedor? I don't.

[B]

Well, you can only speculate. You don't know. Cause he didn't look like he was on Steroids Right. Because he had like dad bod, but jacked, you know, but he carried along some extra body fat. Cause he didn't have to worry about losing weight. But he came from the Russian sports program, you know, and they cheated with everything. The reality of. Have you ever seen that movie Icarus?

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, it's a great movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God. Brian Fogel made this documentary, and it's a really interesting documentary because he made the documentary. This was the plan of it. He was an endurance racer. So he's going to do a cycling race. And he was going to do it naturally. So he does. Does it. Compares his numbers. And then he hires this guy, Gregory Rodchenko. Is it Richenkoff? You got it. I think that's the guy who is the head of the Russian anti doping and I'm making air quotes. Anti doping program. And so during. Yeah, Rodchenkov. Grigory Rodchenkov. So during the filming of it, it turns out that the Russians get busted because during the Sochi Olympics, the entire. The entire roster of Russian athletes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what they did was they cut a hole in the wall and they would take the piss that the Russians had given after the competition. They'd sneak it through the hole and sneak in some new piss and put it in its place. But what they had found was that there was micro abrasions in the jars. They supposedly had these unopenable jars, Right? And the Russians had figured out a way to, like, snake some sort of a utensil or some sort of a device and open up these jars, swap out the piss, and put in some fresh, clean piss in the same jar. So this is while they're filming. So he is being taught how to juice up by this guy. So this guy is telling him this is what you would take and this is how much to take.

[A]

So he's doing stop at this prong.

[B]

Preparing to go do this cycling race, juiced up. And while this is happening, this guy has to flee Russia because now he gets busted. And then he starts telling Brian Fogle everything. He tells them how they run the program. So now to this day, this guy's hiding. He's in witness protection. They took his. They arrested his family. I think they took his family's money away. They took their home away. They took everything. And because they want him, then turn this guy in. So he's in witness protection right now, still in America, hiding. Because they'll assassinate him if they find him. Oh, yeah, because this guy gave up the entire secrets of the Russian doping Program which led to. In the Brazil Olympics. Russia was banned from the Brazil Olympics.

[A]

Yeah. For the doping.

[B]

And so this documentary is wild because it shows. He tells everybody the only people that didn't do it with was figure skaters. They said the figure skaters. It didn't help. And it actually hurt a little bit.

[A]

We tried, but it didn't help.

[B]

They want to keep them gay. They wanted to keep them, like, whatever. They wanted to keep them. They just felt like there's something about giving them testosterone, giving them human growth hormone, steroids. It with their fine motor skills and you have. It's like such a delicate sport, you know, it's a sport of. It's just hand eye coordination and balance. And it didn't help them to be on performance enhancing drugs.

[A]

But you said keep them gay. I don't think if you gave steroids to Johnny Weir, it's going to. You know, you.

[B]

Only one way to find out. No, I'm just kidding.

[A]

That guy is.

[B]

He's.

[A]

He's pretty entertaining. Johnny Weir, was he a gay porn star? No, he was a Olympic skater. Right, Johnny. Is it Johnny Weird Johnny Weir? You.

[B]

Oh, right, right, right, right.

[A]

That's fantastic.

[B]

I don't know why I thought gay porn star. I thought, like, if you're giving steroids to a gay guy, what would be the last guy that you'd want to do it to, to see if you could turn him not gay would be a gay porn star. Like, give him steroids. And all of a sudden he's like, why am I fucking all these guys? This is crazy. Thank you. You've cured me. It turns out it wasn't pray the gay away.

[A]

It's injecting that. That. That preacher. Pray the gay away. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, those guys are funny. Those guys are almost all gay. Those. Those gay.

[A]

Of course. Yeah.

[B]

It's like they'll get together and hug it out. Boners.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Kind of sad. Just be.

[A]

Just be how you're going to be, man. Don't like, tell everyone what to do. Just live your life however you want to live it, you know?

[B]

Well, this is a burden of responsibility on some of us for being judgmental and for so long, I mean, being gay was so dangerous to come out. You could get killed. You get beaten.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it's a testament to our society today that it is like, not just accepted, but celebrated that people are gay. It's because for so long, it was so hard to be gay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know the Turing Test? You know what the Turing Test is?

[A]

Yeah. Well, Alan Turing was gay. And they. I mean, that's a terrible, terrible tragedy. Tragic story. The man, like, really had an enormous impact on World War II, but still, he had to be closeted. And then the. I don't know.

[B]

And then they chemically castrated him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was in England in the 1950s. And he's the guy who came up with the Turing Test, which is a way to determine whether or not artificial intelligence had achieved sentience. Could you tell if you're having. And most people believe that at this point in time, you can't tell. Like, the Turing Test has already been achieved. Like, they've already passed it. Like, if you talk to, like, perplexity, this is what I use for everything. If I talk to it, I would not know whether or not that's a person or not. I mean, it can communicate like a human.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it can answer questions about any. It's just basically like a super genius human being that I ask questions, do all the time on my phone. And I don't. I don't ever feel like this is a computer. It feels like a fucking person. That's just like, you have a wizard that you can ask any question of, and it can give you the answer. So that's. Alan Turing's invention was this test to determine whether or not you could determine whether artificial intelligence had achieved sentience. And what did they do? This guy, they. They chemically castrated him for being gay, and he wound up committing suicide.

[A]

It's tragic. I mean, all that he did with. In World War II. I mean, he's the father of the modern computer. He break the Enigma code, which was considered unbreakable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And just his country turned his back on him and everyone like him, really.

[B]

And not even that long ago. That's what's crazy. Like, people who were alive back back then are still alive today. And that's how much the world has shifted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, whatever. It's been. 80 years. It's kind of crazy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not even 80 years. 70 years. Right. Crazy.

[A]

Yeah, that. Yeah. I'm fascinated by World War II and the characters from that.

[B]

Oh, yeah. No. World War II is a nutty time in history. And it's also the. In a lot of people's eyes in America, one of the reasons why people are so fascinated with World War II. It's the last time Americans got to feel like real heroes. We fucking did it. We turned back the Nazis. We defeated them. You know, we stopped this takeover of the world by the most evil group that we've ever seen assembled in Modern history. And America came back. And there's that photograph, that famous photograph. I guess it's in Times Square where the. That's. That soldiers kissing that woman.

[A]

That was staged, right?

[B]

I believe it was, yeah.

[A]

Unfortunately, because the wars after that were muddy. It was not like, this is a good guy, this is the bad guy. It's like. And then in Vietnam, it's not. You're not taking a hill. You can't. It wasn't about that. It became just the number of casualties. And it was.

[B]

Well, also, it didn't. It was a war that didn't make any sense.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

We found out later on that it was a war that was started under fall. False pretenses.

[A]

Sure. Well, there's. There's been a few of those, but.

[B]

That was the one that's the most obvious. The Gulf of Tonkin incident is the most obvious and proven, like, now. It's. It's not a conspiracy theory. They staged a false flag. They lied to the American people.

[A]

It's the same thing Hitler did in burning the rice.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you ever read Blitzed?

[A]

No, it's.

[B]

Norman Oler wrote about Hitler marching through Poland and about all the drugs that they were giving.

[A]

Oh, yeah, the Pervitin. The. They would get jacked up on Pervitin.

[B]

Fucking meth. They had capsules. Meth capsules. And the people at the front of the line got the most meth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They dosed people up according to where you were.

[A]

But they realized that had diminishing returns because they're just jacked up all the time and they're not sleeping and then it starts falling off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But by then they were addicted. And.

[B]

Well, it turns out you could do it for three days and get all the way through Poland. Yeah, that's how they did it. Three days, no sleep, just. And Hitler was like, I know how we could do it. Just meth everybody up and have a march.

[A]

Well, he was taking more drugs than anyone. Oh, yeah. Just.

[B]

Well, he had his own doctor. That wasn't a part of the scan.

[A]

That shady ass doctor.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all in the book. The book is fantastic. It's really good because it's just like. And he said that most of what Hitler was on was actually opiates.

[A]

Yeah. Eukinol.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Curvatin.

[B]

Well, Pervitin is a meth, right?

[A]

Yeah, Pervitin is the meth. But I think you can all. Was an opiate.

[B]

It can.

[A]

Will you. He was on a lot of. Yeah, a lot of different things.

[B]

Do you know that he also had a genetic anomaly that would lead to his testicles not descending and.

[A]

Yeah, most likely.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's called Corman syndrome or something like that.

[A]

You can all. Yeah, it was an opiate. He.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's called Hallman syndrome or something like that. Whatever he got. What is it called?

[A]

Morel was like Elvis's doctor.

[B]

Yeah. So they got blood from the fabric. What was it called? What was the syndrome called?

[A]

Micropenis.

[B]

Yeah. Well, it definitely. Micropenis was the Kalman. That's what it is. Kalman syndrome. So what it was was they found blood from the couch where supposedly Hitler committed suicide. They took that blood and matched the DNA to Hitler's bloodline. So they knew it was a male, and they knew the blood came from someone in Hitler's family. So they're reasonably assured that this is Hitler. And then they found that they had Kalman syndrome. So researchers analyzing blood stained cloth from the sofa where Hitler died found genetic marker linked to Kalman syndrome disorder is a form of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, which resulted in insufficient production of sex hormones and can prevent or delay puberty. Makes sense. Yeah, right? Methed up dude.

[A]

Yeah. Little dick, tiny dick, no balls. Most evil man in history.

[B]

Wants the whole world.

[A]

Maybe one ball.

[B]

Maybe one ball. Well, he was diagnosed with one undescended testicle. That. That was a fact from one of his medical reports. One of his testicles, like, stuck up there.

[A]

Yeah, it's. He had some problems. He had some issues.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What a monster.

[B]

Speaking of meth, we. We always talk about this documentary that.

[A]

Johnny had a hand in.

[B]

Oh, that's right.

[A]

The wild and wonderful whites of West Virginia.

[B]

I fucking love that documentary, dude.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

That documentary was crazy. How did you get involved in. Thank you, Jamie. How'd you get involved in that?

[A]

A friend of mine knew Julian Nitsberg, and Julian is the one who found Jessica White. He just. Julian was doing a. Another documentary on. Oh, shit.

[B]

Fuck.

[A]

I can't remember right now, but they're like, hey, do you want to meet Julian Knitsburg? And I'm like, yeah. And so I talked to Joy and he told me the story of his being involved with Jessica White. The first document. You saw the first one, right?

[B]

You did more than one?

[A]

No, no. The first one Jacob Young did. Julian Nitzberg found Jessica White, went to Jacob Young and said, hey, look at this guy. Look at this character. And it came out on videotape. And if you saw it Back in the late 80s, early 90s, it was usually like a copied over fourth.

[B]

Is this the dancing outlaw one?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so that's what.

[B]

That's not the wild and wonderful white Virginia that's. Was yours, right?

[A]

Yes. And so I was talking to Julian and I'm like, well, what do you think Jessico's up to now? He's. I don't know. And so we got some money together and sent him to talk to Jessico and his family. And now, because of just generational neglect and all the young kids coming up, he's like. He was like, you know, the wildest one in the family, but now he's like the eighth wildest. All the younger ones are much, you know, more intense. And we came back with three days of footage, and we're like, holy shit. And we show. We cut something together and took it to my friends at mtv and they're like, yeah, okay, we'll give you some money. They weren't even sure. They're like, you guys haven't, you know, failed us yet. So they just pushed the money our way. And we came back with that. We were. It was. It was wild.

[B]

It's a fucking amazing documentary.

[A]

They're charismatic. A charismatic family of charismatic. Bunch of outlaws. Yeah.

[B]

Well, it's certainly entertaining. And it's also an untold story about that part of the country and how they've been ravaged by pills.

[A]

Well, they've been rav. First of all, they were ravaged by the coal companies. Right. Jacking their town. And then you can only buy stuff from the company store. And then when the coal's gone, fuck you, we're out of here and the town's just left, you know, massacred. And then with no thought of what happens to those people. Yeah. You see how that can make the whites and anyone in that area feel right? And so, like, oh, the man. We're gonna stick it to the man. The man stuck it to us. We're gonna stick it to the man.

[B]

Yeah, with.

[A]

You know, they're all. They all get checks for disability checks, and, you know, they're. I don't know. It's just. It's just pretty sad.

[B]

It's very sad. Entertaining and sad at the same time. Like, it's like you're very conflicted. Like, you want to laugh at them, but you're also like, oh, my God. Like, there's kids there like this. There's families here. They're all up. Like, the kid doing backflips because he's high on mountain Dew.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And he's talking about stabbing. I forget which boyfriend of Sue. Bob's.

[B]

Yeah, Kirk's.

[A]

It's crazy. It was intense.

[B]

Yeah. But it's both funny and entertaining, but also, like, deeply disturbing at the same time, because you realize, especially towards the end of the film, where they want to get out of this life, like, they're trying to clean up, you know, and she's trying to get off pills and.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But I. You know, it's tough when you're raised in an environment and, you know, you don't know how to get out. You don't have those tools.

[B]

Well, there's no clear path. There's no clear path out of there. And everywhere around you is fucked. Everything's fucked. Everyone's fucked. There's no good examples of people that figured it out, got their shit together. There's no one cool uncle that, you know, went straight.

[A]

Well, there is part of the family that moved to Michigan and they started flourishing. I think we.

[B]

Oh, that's right.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

So that's the move.

[A]

But it's. Yeah.

[B]

Fucking hard.

[A]

Yeah, it's hard. Yeah.

[B]

It's like. I think there's just forgotten sections of our country when it comes to just extreme despair and poverty and just overall, like you said, fucked over by the coal companies, fucked over by pills. Everyone's addicted. Everyone's just like this long history of crime and.

[A]

And when you're raised in that continually, it's. It's. How do you see a way out? You know, it just. I don't know. It's. It's pretty. Pretty sad.

[B]

Did. But when you filmed it, did you think it was going to be sad, or do you think it was just going to be crazy?

[A]

Like you don't know what you're walking into. Right. You have no idea. So what came back was it was very impactful and you couldn't turn away. It just. Yeah, there's a lot of shit that really pulls on your heartstrings. But they're so charismatic and they have such a way about them. It. I don't know, it makes. It. Their. Their sense of humor, like, helps ease you through it, about the situation, but still, it's a situation.

[B]

Did you take them to the premiere or anything? Did any of them.

[A]

We. We. We flew Jessica and Mamie in for the premiere. And I remember he was going to tap dance at the premiere, and he's got his tap shoes, which were his father, D. Ray White's tap shoes. They're just in a plastic Pharmaceutical bag. But I dropped them when I got out of the car and I was just, I just like, I feel, I felt, felt terrible. But their characters, they. It was pretty wild meeting Jessico and Mamie. That's my friend Storm I grew up with. He helped produce. I remember me, Jessica White and Mike Judge just sitting in a bar before having drinks.

[B]

Oh, Mike Judge was involved in this too?

[A]

No, no, he's just a friend of mine. And he was like, I want to meet Jessica and Mamie.

[B]

I love that guy. Mike Judge is cool as fuck.

[A]

He's so talented.

[B]

Very, very talented.

[A]

So bright.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Man was an engineer starting out, then a musician and he's, he's an interesting character.

[B]

Very, very interesting guy. But like, how did they react to the film and, and watching people watch them and laughing and going crazy.

[A]

They, they. I mean at the premiere they, they really enjoyed it. You know, it's like, it's a big thing. You see yourself up on screen. I know the subject matter is tough, but I don't know, that's their life. Right. They're not surprised by anything. Right. It's just, you know, what happened with.

[B]

Them after the film. Do you follow up on them?

[A]

Every now and then Julian will send me something. One of them will be in the news for this or that. You know, I, I haven't, I haven't stayed in. I never, I didn't stay in touch.

[B]

What'd you say? Jamie Subob's on Tik Tok with her daughter. Oh boy.

[A]

Got the best voice.

[B]

Yeah, I was always the sexy one. How do you even get that voice? That's crazy.

[A]

Yeah. What a voice.

[B]

Have you ever thought about doing a follow up?

[A]

Someone else can. I don't, I don't. We did it and I think we moved on. I think at some point it's a little much to go back to that. Well, I don't feel right about it.

[B]

Right. A little exploitative.

[A]

Yeah, I don't feel right about it.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense. Do you, do you have aspirations, do other stuff? Do you have like any other things that you're trying to do?

[A]

Well, I mean, in the film world, sure. So there's. I have a lot of. I love doing documentaries. I have a couple of documentaries I'm trying to get off the ground. And you know, one on David Allen Coefficient, who Julian Knitsberg was going to direct. You know who David Allen Coe is? Yeah, he's a country singer songwriter who's like. Was the. From the age of 9 to 35, he was institutionalized. You know, his parents just kind of. He was too much and they put him in the boy's home. And he was the head of the outlaw motorcycle gang for a while. He. He had eight or nine wives for a while. He formed his. Yeah, at the same time he formed his own religion. He wrote his own, you know, wrote a book. He was. Oh, the best. I have to show you a picture. And he also wrote some racist songs while he was in prison, and Shel Silverstein convinced him to record those. When he got out, I turned my phone.

[B]

Shel Silverstein, the guy who wrote children's.

[A]

Books, and a boy named Sue. And on the COVID of the Rolling Stone, Shel Silverstein wrote a lot of songs and he convinced a couple of the songs are, you know, racist and can't really. There's no defense to them. He's lived a very complicated life. But in the 80s, he decided, I'm going to become a magician. And I have a picture of him with his. And a ventriloquist. And I'll show it to you in a second. It's pretty. He's the most frightening fucking ventriloquist you've ever seen. Like, and the weird thing is the magicians, Penn and Teller credit him as one of their influences.

[B]

Is that him with his dummy?

[A]

Okay, let me find it real quick. So it's an incredible story, but it's just hard getting something like that made now for people aren't wanting to. Okay, come on. I'm bringing up. So it's. We're trying to tell that story.

[B]

And so just whatever just strikes your interest, like things that you find fascinating. Did I airdrop this to Jamie?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do I do this?

[A]

Here we go. And his son, Tyler Coe, does that podcast, Cocaine and Rhinestones. It's a brilliant podcast. His son's really sharp friend.

[B]

It says, airdrop code required. And so that's how you decide things just based on, like, what's interesting. Just like.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know what house to decide things.

[B]

Look at that, David. Look at his belt buckle. Look at that belt buckle.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

A scary looking dude with a dummy. His.

[A]

His son Tyler's like, I thought that thing was real when I was growing up. You know, it's because he made it seem that way.

[B]

Well, there's a weird connection between a really good ventriloquist and their dummy that gets very odd.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's like in the Twilight Zone episode where the, the guy has the dummy. Do you ever see that?

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, it's great. It's a Twilight Zone episode where the dummy and the guy are having conversations when no one's around, the dummy is alive. And then I think the dummy kills the guy. And then. But I had a guy that I used to work with way back in the day. His name was Otto and George, and he was a ventriloquist comedy act. And George was the dummy and Otto was the guy. And Otto would be like, I can't believe you're saying these things. And George would say, like, really fucked up. And George was an evil looking dummy with, like, crazy eyebrows. He was a legend. Like a comedy legend. That's Otto and George.

[A]

Oh, wow. Yeah, they were a little too close.

[B]

It was a little close. Like, he would be driving in the car and George would be in the trunk and he would tell the guy driving, pull over, I gotta check on George. Like, he felt like he had to pull over and talk to the dummy. And he'd get out by the side of the road, pop over the trunk and hear him back there, like, just fucking around with the dummy, like, looking at it, talking to it. Then he'd put it back in and drive off. Like, he would get in his head that the dummy was needed to be checked on.

[A]

How does a guy like that operate in life? I mean, he's dead now, unfortunately. We all end up that way.

[B]

He partied hard, right? Like, he had. He was an enthusiast.

[A]

Relationships.

[B]

I don't know. I mean, I never heard about him being married or anything like that. I don't believe he had any children and. But he was nuts. He was like. It was a. Like, I never got to know him all that well. It was. I work with him a ton of times, but it was always like. And he's like, hey, Joe, how are you? You know, he'd have his dummy there, but you would just. Everybody would go to the back of the room when Otto would go on stage. We'd all want to watch.

[A]

That was his relationship, the dummy.

[B]

Well, I was, you know, I don't know if he had other relationships, but that was a big one. And one time he was. He was going back and forth with some guy in the audience and the dummy was saying horrible things to this guy. And the guy stabbed the dummy. Guy jumped up on stage and stabbed the dummy. It was at Danger Fields. Yeah, I think it was at Danger Fields.

[A]

What a brilliant move. Yeah, that's inspired. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, he was a part of the program. The guy was a part of the performance, jumped up and stabbed the dummy.

[A]

Because he would just say, that's probably worse than stabbing him. You know, I'm heartbroke.

[B]

Well, I mean, you know, I'm assuming the guy was doing it for fun, but unless he thought the dummy was actually the problem.

[A]

That critical thinking.

[B]

I think they do. I think they're actually doing a documentary on Otto and George. I think there's really. Yeah, I think someone's working on that right now, so that would be interesting. He was. He was a legend on the east coast during the 1980s and the 1990s. Like, we all knew Otto and George.

[A]

Wow. I completely missed that.

[B]

Yeah. But, you know, like, a lot of people that are brilliant, he was out of his mind and never really got traction in terms of, like, a real national career. But he was very funny and a really good joke writer. He was a funny guy.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Because they don't have that little extra side of them. To.

[B]

Business part. Yeah, the business part was missing. Yeah. It was just. Just a maniacal genius.

[A]

I have something to do after this. I'm gonna look up Otto and George.

[B]

Yeah, it's something to look up. Listen, man, good luck on Fear Factor.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

I hope it runs another 148 episodes, just like when we did it back in the day. And I hope nobody gets hurt.

[A]

Yeah, I appreciate that. I appreciate you having me on.

[B]

Oh, my pleasure. It's great to meet you, man. You've entertained the out of me over the years.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

And give me a lot of anx. I'm glad you're okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, thanks for doing this. Tell everybody. When does it air? When does Fear Factor start?

[A]

I premieres tomorrow. Oh, no. Excuse me. Premieres tonight, the 14th.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Sorry. I've been on a whirlwind kind of thing, so it's on tonight.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

Yeah, awesome.

[B]

All right. So good luck.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Bye, buddy.

[A]

It.