#2444 - Andrew Wilson

Summary

The Joe Rogan Experience #2444 – Andrew Wilson

Date: January 28, 2026
Host: Joe Rogan
Guest: Andrew Wilson
Episode Focus: Debates, conspiracy culture, political unrest, missing persons, gun culture, immigration, the rise of Christian nationalism, US history, social media polarization, and the role of debate in public discourse.

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Episode Overview

This episode features Joe Rogan and debate host/commentator Andrew Wilson. Their wide-ranging conversation delves into the evolution of political debate, conspiracy media, missing person mysteries, wild animal populations, gun culture, current protests/riots, immigration (and perceived manipulation of demographics for power), social safety nets, charity inefficiency, the roots of religious and moral frameworks, and the dynamics of online radicalization.

Wilson shares his path from gunsmithing and factory work to internet debates during the COVID lockdowns, offering his inside perspective on the state of online discourse and debate.

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Key Topics and Discussion Points

1. Debate Culture, Meme Origins, and Conspiracy Channels

(00:15 – 06:00)

• Discussion on the origins of "Prove me wrong" and "Change my mind" formats, and how social media and right-wing groups popularized debate provocations.
• The advent and lifecycle of conspiracy channels: their rise and quick burnout, the need to "one up" previous content (e.g., moving from real insider issues to the Mandela Effect, time travel).
• Candace Owens discussed as an example of conspiracy escalation and meme culture.
• Art Bell (Coast to Coast AM) heralded as a master of "giving people rope" and riding wild late-night calls, including stories of time travelers and Bigfoot—connecting to the notion that “debate” is often theater.
  • “Art would give you all the rope. You call it art? I’m a werewolf. Interesting.” – Jamie (03:41)
• Rogan shares experiences making his old TV show Joe Rogan Questions Everything, including his foray with Bigfoot hunters: “It’s like a team of unfuckable white guys … just looking for a mystery in the woods you’ll never solve.” (04:21)

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2. Missing 411, Nature Mysteries, & The Reality Behind Disappearances

(05:04 – 08:49)

• Reference to Missing 411 cases—kids or adults vanishing in national parks, sometimes with bizarre details.
• Rogan’s skepticism: most disappearances in the wild are due to nature—bodies quickly consumed by animals and elements.
  • “If you die in the woods, you get consumed pretty quick. That’s why you don’t find mountain lion skeletons.” – Joe (05:53)
• Debate about “wild men” as a popular but likely unfounded theory in missing persons lore.
• Noted: the tendency for people to overlay supernatural or conspiratorial narratives where nature (predators/scavengers) is the much likelier answer.

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3. Wildlife Management, Human Interventions, & Invasive Species

(11:22 – 19:34)

• The complex impact of reintroducing wolves to various states (Yellowstone, Colorado): ecological and agricultural repercussions.

• Coyotes’ spread from a western animal to being present coast to coast, including in cities like Central Park and San Francisco—a case study in how ecology, government interventions, and urban regulations intertwine.

• Observations about how urban and naive politics impact rural/wild relationships, wildlife balance, and local cultures.

  • “These wolves from the Pacific Northwest … had been killing cattle. So they captured these wolves instead of killing them, and then they relocated them to Aspen where they’re killing cattle.” – Joe (15:00)
  • On pheasant and invasive species: “Pheasants, an invasive species, that’s not a natural North American species either. They brought those fuckers over, and they are delicious.” (17:28)

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4. Societal Decline and Political Dysfunction

(19:38 – 24:29)

• Critique of California and Pacific Northwest law, politics, and social decay: skyrocketing crime, poor wildlife policy, and unlivable cities.

  • “They fucked it all up. It’s almost unfixable now.” – Joe (20:10)

• Expansion on how political labels have shifted—left-wing organizers allegedly used protest/grievance movements cynically for personal gain or to drive a “color revolution”

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5. Guns, Law Enforcement, Protests, and the Minneapolis Incident

(43:38 – 72:28)

• Deep dive into the recent shooting of a protester in Minneapolis: examining legal, mechanical, and societal angles.

  • Rogan explores gun mechanics, accidental discharges (Sig P320), and debate over whether it was a justified shooting or “execution.”
  • The cyclical nature of media coverage and protest escalation—alleged stand-downs, attempts to provoke violent incidents for narrative leverage.
  • Rogan’s security guard anecdote highlights the tribal mentality that can develop in tense enforcement environments (“us vs. them” mindset).

• Wilson: “What they do is set up the conditions, maximize the conditions for horrible actions to happen. And then when they do, they use those as the justification for why they were ever out there in the first place.” (71:57)

  • On manufactured outrage: “This is the quintessential description of the color revolution … It’s well-funded and very well-organized.” – Joe (72:28)

• Wilson supports ground-level journalism covering riots/protests, even when he doesn’t fully agree politically.

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6. Immigration, Manipulation of Demographics, Social Programs

(73:24 – 80:13, 120:21 – 121:04, 135:45 – 142:46)

• The role of mass migration in redrawing political power (congressional seats, "uni-party" plans), using welfare/social programs to secure voting blocs.

• Social Security, welfare, charity—a deep cynicism over system abuse, inefficiency, and the ways in which good intentions get manipulated for power or profit.

  • “The only reason why you do that is because you want to cheat.” (75:10)

• Criticism that “suicidal empathy” blinds well-meaning citizens to sinister, long-term plans of politicians/activists.

  • “For Democrats this is all good. … Elon's right, Democrats … are gonna win the mid-terms by hook or by crook … and they'll just run out the clock.” – Andrew Wilson (78:07)

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7. Mental Health, Political Demographics, and Religion

(89:42 – 103:32)

• High rates of self-reported mental illness among liberals/leftists, especially young women (Rogan reads statistics).

  • “Conservative men, 16% mentally ill. Liberal young women, 56% report a mental health diagnosis.” (90:28)

• Discussion: Are conservatives more mentally healthy, or does stigma prevent reporting?

• Critique of the psychology and psychiatry industries—psychological voodoo vs. friends/family support.

• The argument that religious, community-oriented frameworks (e.g., Christianity) provide moral grounding, community, and mental health benefits.

  • “If there was a pill that could make you as nice as the people that I go to church with, everybody would be on it.” – Joe (96:11)

• Wilson: “Philosophy can do that for you … The kind of materialism view … reduces always to me, me, me.” (97:23)

• Long discussion of Christian belief as practical good—a reliable moral system whether or not you accept metaphysical claims.

  • “If you act as if God is real, you will have a better life. Like it works.” – Joe (102:45)

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8. Secularism, Political Power, Forgiveness vs. Left-Wing Orthodoxy

(103:32 – 110:10)

• Atheistic, secular, and especially Marxist/leftist systems critiqued for lacking systems of forgiveness (“They don’t have that built in”).
  • “With leftists, their pathway is everything’s permitted. And the pathway from the Christian is, no, not everything is permitted, but almost everything can be forgiven.” – Andrew Wilson (105:37)
• Wilson, as an Orthodox Christian, shares parables of progress and forgiveness.
• Rogan: “If you don’t have a pathway to forgiveness … you’re always going to have people pointing out the bad people, and it’s going to keep moving in that direction.” (107:08)

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9. Equality of Outcome, Communism, and Human Incentive

(109:26 – 115:28)

• Rogan and Wilson dismiss the feasibility of enforced equality of outcome, socialist/communist systems, and point to societal and individual pathology as evidence that merit-driven competition is both inevitable and beneficial.

  • “If everybody has to share all the money, who’s going to enforce that? Who’s going to tell people that you have to give up your house? The state? The state has guns.” – Joe (110:01)

• Examples: “Lazy people used to have bad homes, you could tell. Just like ugly people dated ugly people—about what you can get. Same thing with skill.” – Wilson (112:15)

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10. Charity, Social Safety Nets, and Systemic Corruption

(115:28 – 120:21)

• Exploration of how massive charity organizations and state social programs become corrupted, ineffectual, and serve as vehicles for grift, bureaucratic expansion, and regime change rather than genuinely helping the vulnerable.

  • “Charities … the CEO gets 90%. One billion dollars went to bonuses.” – Andrew Wilson (116:45)

• California’s (and other blue states’) spending on homelessness: astronomical sums spent with worsening outcomes; lack of transparency and odd vetoes on audits.

  • “California spent $24 billion on the homeless problem. It got worse. … Gavin Newsom has vetoed [the audit].” – Joe (117:28)

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11. Historical and Anthropological Perspectives: Colonization, Noble Savage Myths, and Moral Relativism

(121:04 – 135:53)

• Debunking romanticization of native cultures and the myth of the “noble savage.”
  • The dark reality behind practices (e.g., the “Semen Warriors” initiation in Papua New Guinea, human sacrifice among the Aztecs).
• Rationalizing conquest/colonization when encountering civilizations with institutionalized violence or horrific rituals.
• Frustration with leftist attempts to delegitimize birthright or national identity as a form of “colonizer” guilt.
  • “[That critique is] an attempt to delegitimize your claim to your own land.” – Andrew Wilson (134:52)

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12. Rise of Christian Nationalism, Power, and the Dangers of Radical Movements

(142:24 – 147:24)

• Rogan and Wilson debate the rationality of Christians seeking and wielding power to counteract radical leftist movements. They discuss the public’s fear of a theocracy and note how every power structure is susceptible to corruption; skepticism is warranted regardless of the ideology.
  • “What people are really worried about is when people think about Christians, they think about the worst case scenario … But how is electing atheists better?”
  • On politicians always needing unsolved problems to justify fundraising/campaigning.

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13. Wilson’s Background and The Art of Debate

(147:24 – End)

• Wilson describes starting debates during COVID lockdowns (“I didn’t know who any of these podcasters were … I just wanted … my view represented”).

• The challenge and weariness of debating insincere or performative opponents—in contrast to intellectually honest, emotionally invested interlocutors.

• Observes that often, the higher up media and politics you go, the less competent and more propped-up participants become.

  • “A lot of people [in media] have no business being there at all. … Nepotism.” – Andrew Wilson (160:46)

• Wilson’s discipline in responding to fan DMs daily, his sense of responsibility in representing his worldview clearly and honestly:

  • “It’s my privilege to have fans. It’s not their privilege to be one.” (155:07)

• The importance of sound public debate in helping people question, balance, or switch their opinions (“That debate did it for me”).

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• Art Bell nostalgia: “Art would give you all the rope. You call it art? I’m a werewolf. Interesting.” – Jamie (03:41)
• On Bigfoot hunters: “It’s like a team of unfuckable white guys … just looking for a mystery in the woods you’ll never solve.” – Joe (04:21)
• “If you die in the woods, you get consumed pretty quick. That’s why you don’t find mountain lion skeletons.” – Joe (05:53)
• On modern protests: “What they do is set up the conditions … for horrible actions to happen. And then when they do, they use those as the justification for why they were ever out there in the first place.” – Andrew Wilson (71:57)
• “If you act as if God is real, you will have a better life. Like, it works.” – Joe (102:45)
• “With leftists, their pathway is everything’s permitted. And the pathway from the Christian is, no, not everything is permitted, but almost everything can be forgiven.” – Andrew Wilson (105:37)
• “If there was a pill that could make you as nice as the people that I go to church with, everybody would be on it.” – Joe (96:11)
• “It’s my privilege to have fans. It’s not their privilege to be one.” – Andrew Wilson (155:07)
• On mainstream media nepotism: “A lot of people just really got no business being there at all.” – Andrew Wilson (160:46)

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Conclusion

Andrew Wilson and Joe Rogan’s conversation illustrates the complexities and pitfalls of modern debate—online and offline. The topics stretch from the absurdities of meme culture and conspiracy theories to earnest examinations of morality, faith, forgiveness, political manipulation, and the erosion of shared narratives. Wilson provides a firsthand account of the challenges inherent in becoming a reluctant online public intellectual, and both agree on the urgent need for honest, grounded debate in an increasingly divided and performative information landscape.

Transcript

[Andrew Wilson]

Joe Rogan podcast.

[Jamie]

Check it out. The Joe Rogan experience.

[Andrew Wilson]

Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[Jamie]

Prove me wrong type things.

[Andrew Wilson]

You know, way before that changed my minds.

[Jamie]

Changed my mind. What does Charlie. What did Charlie say? Prove me wrong or something like that?

[Andrew Wilson]

It was something akin to that. My understanding was that essentially TPUSA ripped that idea off. Yeah. And then he would. I think he feels a lot of, like, responsibility for what happened with Kirk because.

[Jamie]

Is he the Mossad?

[Andrew Wilson]

What's that?

[Jamie]

Is he the.

[Andrew Wilson]

Is he the Mossad? Yeah, exactly. That's so funny. I don't know. Let's get Candace's number. We can ask her. We can ask her.

[Jamie]

Kansas is getting. She's getting dragged on Twitter today because she's like, I've lived in Connecticut. I've never seen this much ice on trees. And it's 30 degrees out and everybody's like, yeah, 30 is freezing.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. It's so funny. Do you see all the Ms. Cleo memes?

[Jamie]

Ms. Cleo.

[Andrew Wilson]

It's so funny.

[Jamie]

Ms. Cleo.

[Andrew Wilson]

You don't remember the Ms. Cleo, the psychic? Yeah, the psychic. They keep on putting the Miss Cleo memes out for Candace because she's a psychic, you know.

[Jamie]

That's hilarious.

[Andrew Wilson]

It is funny.

[Jamie]

I think this lighter, just the bed. Can I borrow that other one? Thank you.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, it's really funny.

[Jamie]

Well, Candace has painted herself into a weird corner where everything has to be a wild conspiracy. Like, it has to be. Bridget Macron's a man. Oh, yeah. Erica Kirk killed Charlie. It has to, like, one up the last one, you know?

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, I. I was. It's really funny. He came to the same conclusion that I did. So it's like, I've seen those conspiracy channels come up before, and then they. They come up and they crash out. And the reason is, is because, like, for her, I think she. She had the whole, like, she was involved with this, right? She was involved intricately with. With Kirk. She knew him.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

And so that gave a lot of credibility to a lot of the things that she was saying. But then once you start moving back into, like, Mandela effect stuff and. And, you know, time travel. Time travel, yeah. People are like, ah.

[Jamie]

I mean, you could do that if you're that guy. If you're Art Bell, you know, if you want.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, you know. But Bell, I remember, I used to listen to Bill all.

[Jamie]

He's the goat.

[Andrew Wilson]

Oh, yeah, he was. Remember that intro? Boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie]

So from the Kingdom of God.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, I remember. I remember listening to him for years. When I drive around with my dad, it was a big deal. I remember the very first episode I heard from him. It was something about the nimh.

[Jamie]

What's the nim?

[Andrew Wilson]

The Nim were, like, this guy called in. He was a time traveler, right? And he came back in time because his whole thing was like, he had to stop the weather patterns from destroying the future because the nimh, an alien race of grays, had come, and they were heating up the planet slowly to change it to be the conditionals that were necessary for them to then live on the planet. And, you know, Art Bell, he's always playing into it with the lunatics, you know, and he's like. And does the CIA currently know that you're there doing this? You know? And the dude's just like.

[Jamie]

Art would give you all the rope.

[Andrew Wilson]

Oh, yeah.

[Jamie]

You call it art? I'm a werewolf. Interesting.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. Oh, did you ever hear the Bigfoot episode?

[Jamie]

No.

[Andrew Wilson]

Oh, my God. That's the funniest episode you'll ever hear. So Redneck calls into Art Bell and talks about how he killed Bigfoot and where he buried it. And the guy has. It's like. I don't know if it was early trolling, like, before trolling was trolling. But it was like this guy, he was like, yep. You know, me and Timmy, we. We took him out back there and shot him right in the chest twice. And there were some youngins, and they spread out a little bit, and then we, you know, we packed up the Bigfoot and buried them in the backyard, you know? And you said there was youngins.

[Jamie]

The Bigfoot people are the weirdest. Duncan Trussell and I went hunting for Bigfoot once. We did this. I used to do this TV show for a while called Joe Rogan. Questions Everything. And I would be like, all right, tell me about chemtrails, you know, And I'd go meet with all the loons and all the people that are, like, really involved. Ufo, anything like that. And we went and hung out with the Bigfoot people. So we went Bigfoot hunting for, like, two days in the Pacific Northwest and talked to all these people, and they're all like, the same person. I just said, it's like a team of unfuckable white guys. It's like, that's what you find, like, these guys that just, like, they found their calling. It's just looking for a mystery in the woods that you'll never solve.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, there was a guy I used to have on your podcast, and he was huge For a long time, and I think it still is. Remember those missing cases? Right. That's a big deal. And I was always, like, anytime I heard anything about that, I always was enthralled with it because some of the stories were demented, like kids appearing 500 miles away and all this. But that guy always had you edged because people would always go, what do you think's going on? You know? And he.

[Jamie]

What was that guy's name?

[Andrew Wilson]

I can't. I can't remember it. But it was like, missing.

[Jamie]

Yeah, 411.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, missing four. One. One.

[Jamie]

I've seen him on Instagram or on Twitter.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, he. But he'd got all the park records, you know, and he started going through, and he was like, there's some really weird stuff going on here. For how many people are missing in national parks?

[Jamie]

There is, there is, but the reality is, if you die in the woods, you get consumed pretty quick. That's the reality. That's why you don't find mountain lion skeletons. Mountain lions are a real thing. I've never found a dead mountain lion skeleton. And all the times I've been hunting. Never. Not once. You'll find elk bones. You know, you'll find stuff like that.

[Andrew Wilson]

I found some coyote coyote skeletons before out in the Nevada desert.

[Jamie]

But mountain lions are a real thing. You very, very, very, very, very rarely find a dead. Dead mountain lion.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And there's so many of them now. Think about how few people actually go, like, hiking into the deep wilderness. Your body just gets consumed.

[Andrew Wilson]

Sure.

[Jamie]

You know, there's so many animals that come along. Rats, all kinds of things eat your bones.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, that's a free meal.

[Jamie]

Yeah. It's so easy.

[Andrew Wilson]

And they can smell it for miles.

[Jamie]

Sure. Bears.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Anywhere there's wild pigs. And then. Then it's over. Then there's nothing left.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. They can smell that stuff for miles.

[Jamie]

But it's like people always want to attach some crazy, deeper, weird ufo Bigfoot meaning to it. It's like, no, you're in the wild, and nature has a whole plan for dead things. And it does a really good job of.

[Andrew Wilson]

Oh, yeah, they don't last.

[Jamie]

Not at all.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, that's the thing. If you live out in the country, you see this all the time. You know, raccoon will be around getting in someone's trash. They'll walk out, bam, raccoon's done. They just go throw it in the bushes. That's it.

[Jamie]

That's it.

[Andrew Wilson]

Problem solved.

[Jamie]

Problem solved. And it disappears quickly. And plants consume it and. Yeah, that's it rots and things eat.

[Andrew Wilson]

It doesn't even take that long to rot. It's just gone quick.

[Jamie]

It's pretty quick. Have you ever seen like those time lapse photos where they take a dead animal and they let it sit there and you watch it get consumed by maggots and it's very quick.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

So these poor people that go hiking, you know, like if you go hiking and you're by yourself and you break an ankle and you're 15 miles in and you don't have a compass and you're kind of like roughly judging which hill you came over. And there's a lot of people that just get ahead of themselves and they really shouldn't be that far out there and they just die. Happens all the time.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

You know, so like this idea that it's like there's. You could. If you look at all the data and you try to find a pattern to it and you start imagining that there's some grand conspiracy that some watcher in the woods that's consuming people, some demon that's out there you can get pretty kooky with.

[Andrew Wilson]

I think the popular theory is it's wild men.

[Jamie]

Oh, wild men.

[Andrew Wilson]

Wild men.

[Jamie]

Oh, like humans.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. Well. Or some human variant that are.

[Jamie]

That's what this guy, this 411 guy believes.

[Andrew Wilson]

I'm not sure because he won't say. They don't. He doesn't. He doesn't actually give his here's what I think is going on. But people ask him and he's like, well, I have my theories, but he never tells you anything. Actually what the theories are interesting.

[Jamie]

I wonder why it doesn't want to. This episode is brought to you by eight Sleep. You guys must have heard about eight Sleep by now, right? You know the company with the sole mission of improving your sleep. So Eight Sleep has just launched a new product, the Pod 5. It's the latest generation of their signature innovation, a smart mattress cover that automatically regulates your body temperature throughout the night. The result, you enjoy up to one full hour of additional quality sleep each night. Just put the Pod 5 on top of your current mattress and let it work its magic. The AI driven autopilot will learn your sleep patterns and adjust your temperature, elevation and wake up timing. And thanks to its built in sensors, you get a personalized sleep report every morning. No need to wear any devices. Head over to 8sleep.com rogan and use the code rogan to get $350 off the Pod 5 Ultra. You still get 30 days to try it at home and return it if you don't like it. But you will love it. I love it. I love mine. And your body will thank you for this investment in better sleep. Eight Sleep shipping to countries worldwide. See [e-mail] Rogan this episode is brought to you by Tommy John Underwear. I love Tommy John. I'm wearing them right now. It's the new year. If you've got old underwear, treat yourself to an upgrade. Comfort is the new power move and Tommy John delivers it in every single day. Whether you like classic colors or want to jump into the new year with fresh seasonal prints, comfort never goes out of style. With up to four times more stretch than competing brands, plus breathable fabrics that keep you cool and dry, Tommy John solves all the problems of traditional underwear. And it's not just men's underwear. They have thousands of five star reviews from women, too. Grab something for the whole family. There's women's underwear, pajama sets, hoodies, joggers, and more. Your first purchase is backed by Tommy John's risk free guarantee. So if you don't love it, you get your money back. There's literally nothing to lose. Look. With over 30 million pairs sold, there are thousands of people wearing Tommy John right now who are starting the year way more comfortable than you. Don't settle. I'm starting my year with Tommy John and you should too. Go to TommyJohn.com now. Experience comfort perfected and save 25% off your first order with code Rogan. That's Tommy John.com code Rogan. Well, maybe that's why he's not more popular. If you just came out with it, like Candace. Yeah, maybe it'd be huge.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, like those guys that used to be in the 90s who were saying that we were going underground and killing the Nephilim. Those guys were great. They were. You're going down. It's like God, man. And they were giants. They had three rows of teeth and their special forces are going down there and taking them out.

[Jamie]

Yeah, there's a whole group of people that believe that there's underground creatures that live underground and come out at night. And there's always been cryptids. Yeah, whatever they are. You know, people think the Grays live underground. You know, there's like, there's not a lot of mystery left, you know, outside of places like the Amazon, the Congo that are super deep to get to. Not a whole lot of mystery left in terms of life.

[Andrew Wilson]

Maybe ocean depths.

[Jamie]

Yeah, ocean depths for sure.

[Andrew Wilson]

That's like the whole New unexplored frontier. Right. Is ocean depths.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

Anytime I turn on the tv, it's like, look at this crazy creature. I'm like, that doesn't exist. And I look at it, I'm like, wait, that exists. I saw one the other day, tweeted out. I was like, the Mandela effect has to be real. It was a. It's called a Siberian mule deer. You ever seen a Siberian mule deer?

[Jamie]

No.

[Andrew Wilson]

They have fangs.

[Jamie]

Oh, right. I have seen a fanged deer. I forget what they call it. Apparently that's the. Do you know what elk ivories are? Yeah, yeah, that's. It used to be like a tusk, like way, way back in the day.

[Andrew Wilson]

It's so retarded looking, dude.

[Jamie]

Yeah. The fanged area. They're weird. It's very strange.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

I wonder what they were there for.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, well, there's. I found a video because I was like, no way, dude. Do these things exist? I thought I was being memed, you know? So look. And this thing is real. So I found a video of them fighting and they use those things as weapons.

[Jamie]

Oh, that makes sense. That's the only thing that makes sense. Like gorillas. Gorillas don't eat meat. Yeah. They have these massive fangs. You know, it's. Nature's weird. So much variation. You know, there's so many different types of life. It's. And that the fact that they all sort of synchronize, like this one eats that one and that one eats this one. And this one, he lives there and that one lives. It's like. It's very fascinating when you really look at the. Just a wide variety of species that exist.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, most people don't know anything about it. Most people have never. We live in such a comfortable world that is completely guarded from everything that's out there. And it's like people had a taste of out there.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

I think that the worldview of many, many people would change very quickly, especially feminists. I think that feminists would immediately stop being feminist if they just had a taste of like. Well, you know, people. You actually did have to shut themselves up at night from wolves. That was a real thing. Wolves would come in and eat you and so you would shut yourself in so that that didn't happen.

[Jamie]

Well, that's gone so far the other way that fucking retards are bringing wolves into places.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, I know.

[Jamie]

It is so dumb. You know, I have a good friend.

[Andrew Wilson]

Didn't they take it over like in Yellowstone or someplace? They reintroduced wolves and it just decimated the deer.

[Jamie]

Population? Well, the elk population, but that's actually arguable that that might have been a good thing in some ways because it was getting to elk need natural predators and mountain lions can only kill so many elk. Yeah, but what's really interesting is mountain lions kill way more elk when wolves are around because the wolves find the mountain lions and take their elk, and so then the. The mountain lions have to go kill another deer or, you know, whatever.

[Andrew Wilson]

Why, why like just issue more hunting elk permits though? Like, why do that?

[Jamie]

Well, you have to have some natural predators in a good, healthy ecosystem. And there's a good argument, particularly in Montana, that at one point in time it had gotten to a point where you're going to have like rampant disease because they were, they were issuing these. They're issuing like unlimited or a large amount of tags for people in the mid winter so that you can catch these elk in deep snow and just peck them off because they were having so many of them and that they, they weren't sustainable, that they were hitting these massive populations. So their populations are down to like, I want to say less than 40% of what they were at their peak when they brought in the wolves. But the problem is these wolves, like what they did in Colorado recently is the dumbest of all time because they brought these fucking wolves outside of Aspen and they took wolves from Washington State, Washington state or Oregon. But whatever it was, these, these wolves from the Pacific Northwest were. Wol. Had been killing cattle. So they captured these wolves instead of killing them, and then they relocated them to Aspen where they're killing cattle. So they, they relocated them onto my buddy's ranch. Like there's five of them.

[Andrew Wilson]

And he had a cattle ranch. Did he.

[Jamie]

He didn't have. He doesn't have cattle on his ranch, but his neighbors do.

[Andrew Wilson]

Okay.

[Jamie]

And his neighbors are losing cattle left and right. And so now they've killed off a couple of them and they're trying to. It was a disaster. And it's because the governor, the governor's husband, he's a wildlife lover and he thinks it would be amazing if we had wolves.

[Andrew Wilson]

You ever talked to those deer hunters in Michigan?

[Jamie]

In Michigan, yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

They've been pissed off for like every deer hunter I know in Michigan has been pissed off who's a native for years because they all, they all used to shoot pheasant. That was the big deal in Michigan was pheasant. And then here's the story I heard. I don't know if it's true or not, right. But the dnr, the Department of Natural Resources imported a bunch of western coyotes in order to thin out the deer population. Because the deer population was basically mangling all these farm crops.

[Jamie]

Oh, boy.

[Andrew Wilson]

And those. Now that's an all you can eat buffet for a coyote in Nevada. These ground birds that are just these fat, fat little ground birds, and they decimated the population. You'll talk to these old deer hunters. Have you seen any pheasant?

[Jamie]

No.

[Andrew Wilson]

Shut up. Shut up.

[Jamie]

The interesting thing about that, though, is pheasants, an invasive species that's not a natural North American species either. They brought those fuckers over, and they are delicious. And it's fun to hunt them.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, they would always just walk those train tracks, those old abandoned train tracks. They'd have the dogs. Dogs kick up the pheasant. They'd shoot them from the track. Dog would bring it up. That was like a Michigan pastime.

[Jamie]

Yeah, the coyote thing's a real problem because coyotes are now. They used to be a western animal, and now they're in all 50 states. Not only that, they're in virtually every city in America.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, they've been wiping them out in Michigan pretty good in rural areas. Oh, yeah. Well, what they do now is they have the GPS trackers, put them on the dogs. Old boys will get in with AR15s. Those dogs will run them for 200 miles, and then they finally take a shot. And they just will do that all winter long.

[Jamie]

Man, that's good. But it's hard to wipe them out because what they do is, you know, when you hear coyotes calling, it's like roll call. They're letting. Sometimes there's a lot of confusion to what they're doing. Some people think that they're letting the other coyotes know that they've killed something, that we have food. But it's also a roll call. And when one of the coyotes is missing, the females have more pups.

[Andrew Wilson]

Really?

[Jamie]

Yeah. Some weird natural reaction. Also, their natural enemy is gray wolves. And when they evolved, they evolved to when the gray wolves kill them. Because the gray wolves don't breed with coyotes, but coyotes do breed with red wolves. That's why you have these, like, coy wolves on the East Coast. Because a coyote is a wolf. It's a wolf. It's just a small wolf. And so their natural inclination is when they're getting chased, they move to a new area, and then they have even more pups. So that's how they've spread out through the entire country. So if you go back to, like, the turn of the century, like the 1900s, coyotes were exclusively a western animal. Now they're in New York City.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. They're everywhere, which is crazy.

[Jamie]

They have them in Central Park. They have fucking coyotes running around Central Park. Some lady this morning posted on X a mountain lion in San Francisco sitting on a porch in the city of San Francisco, a big one, just sitting there.

[Andrew Wilson]

It's like just having a good time.

[Jamie]

Well, that's just because California has the dumbest fucking laws when it comes to those things.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. Well, they have terrible gun laws, too.

[Jamie]

They have terrible laws.

[Andrew Wilson]

They have terrible laws.

[Jamie]

They have terrible laws. Terrible everything.

[Andrew Wilson]

Terrible politicians.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

You know, it's a shame, too. Like, I grew up in Santa Rosa, and that's the most beautiful area. The Napa Valley area. It's the most beautiful area on planet Earth. The weather's always perfect. It's January 15th. It might as well be July 15th. Right. It's always perfect. It's always gorgeous. And they fucked it all up.

[Jamie]

They fucked it all up.

[Andrew Wilson]

They fucked it all up. Yeah, and they fucked it up real bad, too.

[Jamie]

Oh, it's almost unfixable now. Especially like San Francisco area. Like the whole Pacific Northwest is almost unfixable. It's like they double down and they keep going. Like, Seattle now has a communist mayor.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Who's been living with her parents.

[Andrew Wilson]

New York, they all got communist mayors. Black Lives Matter had. They were. Their head organizers. They were communist avowed communists.

[Jamie]

Like, until it came to buying property with Black Lives Matter money.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

What's happening with that?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, then they're. Then they're very much capitalistic.

[Jamie]

How come they're not in trouble? I don't understand that. Like, they spent millions of dollars of that money on real estate.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

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[Jamie]

What's going on?

[Andrew Wilson]

No idea. I have no idea. Why? Well, I don't. I don't know why the heads of many of these organizations aren't being rounded up and summarily arrested. Yeah, I mean, we're watching these. I've been covering the riots non stop. I'm sorry, protests. The completely organic protests, which are totally organic. And it's been interesting to watch. I was watching one the other day, we were live and it was Don Lemon and he had showed up in Minnesota. And the first thing Don Lemon does, right? I hate Don Lemon, by the way. But first thing he does, he's one.

[Jamie]

Of the dumbest motherfuckers that has ever gotten on television.

[Andrew Wilson]

He's terrible. First thing he does, he drives up in this car. He's in the backseat and he jumps out of the car and he has this shit eating lemon smile on his face. And he runs over with Starbucks to these people, and he's like, here you go. And then he jumps back in the car, right? And they drive off. Now, here's what's interesting about this. He comes back and he's in there with the protesters, you know what I mean? And he's interviewing them. Most of the protesters say, we're coming from out of town, we're from this state. I'm from two states away, I'm from three states away for this totally organic protest. Well, the cops, what they start doing, they have these guardrails on the sidewalk in front of the ICE facility and there's gaps inside of that barrier. And so they pull their police cruisers in just to fill those gaps so that they stay behind the barrier. And Lemon's like, why would they do that? Why would they keep us compressed, you know, behind this barrier? And I'm thinking, because you just stopped your car in the middle of the street to run across the road and give these guys Starbucks, you idiot. You know, they want to keep the roadway clear so that they can get their people in and out. You literally stopped your car in the middle of the road, ran across the street to give these people Starbucks and then got back in your car. And you're like, why is it that they're trying to keep us from getting into the road? You know? What are you talking about? I just couldn't believe. I was like, what?

[Jamie]

It's amazing when these people that are so smug, they're protected by a large organization, by cnn, and then they get fired and then they get. They're basically like a dog, like Carl getting released into the woods, and then they have to fend for themselves. And you see them in the world of podcasting, where you don't have anybody writing things for you and you have to express your own opinions. You're like, oh, this is the real you.

[Andrew Wilson]

It turns out you're a moron. I didn't know. Whoa. You know, the whole time, Magi's thinking the whole time, you know, I never thought I'd be an entertainer. I didn't think I'd do anything with podcast. Never, never in a million years. I never would have thought that you were.

[Jamie]

What were you, an engineer or a robot robotics mechanic?

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

A robotics mechanic, yeah. How did you get involved in that?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, I was a gunsmith for years and there's no real applicable skills outside of that for anything actually. It doesn't really carry over in anything. It's really its own thing, bluing things. Like, it just doesn't carry over. A friend of mine said, hey, look. Because I told him, I was like, I need a job, you know, I'm not making it. What do you think? He's like, you know, you should apply to be an industrial mechanic. And I was like, I don't know much about it. He's like, well, just go apply. So I did took NAP2 tests and so the guy was like, well, I want to hire you at a level three, which was high, you know, it was like mid range, wasn't the highest, wasn't the lowest. I was like, damn, okay, you know, what's the pay? He's like, it was like 30 an hour. You know, that to me was. Was life changing. So I took the job and I got. I didn't know what the hell I was doing, but they trained me up well. And then there were some robots on the floor and I started working on those. And then from there they trained me in robotics. And so it was, it was all done on site.

[Jamie]

Like what kind of automation?

[Andrew Wilson]

Like automation. And it was all food related.

[Jamie]

Food related.

[Andrew Wilson]

All food robots? Yep. So we weren't dealing with Johnny 5. We were dealing with like, Vacuum systems and ovens and various robots which were associated with those. Like, for instance, there was a packaging machine that would. All it would do is form boxes. That's all it did. It just. That's it. But it would form, you know, a thousand boxes a minute. And it was. It was a giant robot and it had a huge sequence of functions on it. You know, when people think robot, they always think humanoid. But almost no robot is in any way humanoid. That's just not what they're for.

[Jamie]

It is weird, right, that we think of robots as like movie robots. We think of iRobot.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. If you came across a robot in a factory, you would have no idea it was a robot. You'd be like, what the hell is that?

[Jamie]

So how did you go from that to debating people online?

[Andrew Wilson]

Covid. So, yeah, the lockdowns happened and I was laid off. All the food plants in Michigan were shut down, especially the meat plants. And that's where I was. I was in the meat plants and they all shut down because of the draconian restrictions of one Gretchen Whitmer. And anyway, while she was out on a boat partying with her honey, we were all locked out of work. Right.

[Jamie]

Familiar story.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. We had the stay at home orders, and I would argue with these dumb liberals on Facebook and they pissed me off. And so I started crashing their panels and I would debate with them and I had a lot to say. And those things started to become more and more popular and they would move over to YouTube, people would clip it. Then I started getting invited on to do debates with other people, and I didn't know who these people were. It wasn't my world. I didn't know who any of these podcasters were. Stuff like that. I'd listen to it maybe occasionally online, but, like, I. I couldn't have told you who, like, Vosh was or Destiny or any of these people. Like, I didn't know who any of them were and I didn't care. To me, it was just some other dumb, smug liberal, you know? So that's where I got my start. I never would have foreseen at all that I'd be sitting here with you.

[Jamie]

That's so. Well, I never would have foreseen I would have been here either.

[Andrew Wilson]

It's weird, huh?

[Jamie]

Yeah. Oh, it's weird. Very weird.

[Andrew Wilson]

And I'll never get used to it. People walk over and they're like, you're Andrew Wilson. And I'm like, nobody. You know what I mean? But it's nice to meet you, you know, Shake Their hand. You have a chat with them. I'll never get used to it.

[Jamie]

No, you probably shouldn't. It's probably better to not get. I'm not used to it. Yeah, yeah. Probably better to not be used to it.

[Andrew Wilson]

Keep you sane and maybe keep you humble.

[Jamie]

Yeah. You need something. You need something to keep you humble. We all know people that did not have something that kept them humble and they lost their way. The wheels fall off.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. They lose their marbles.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially as you get more and more famous, it becomes more and more unmanageable.

[Andrew Wilson]

I was. I feel like I. I'm pretty well grounded due to the fact that I didn't come from a political background. There's no famous people in my family. You know, there's just none of that. And so I feel like the. The grounding is always there because, you know, even from the family, you get the call, like, from my brother, for instance, like, he's been calling me. The. I don't know if he could say the f. Slur here, so I won't, but he's been calling. Yeah. Faggot. He's been, you know, he's been like the phone call since I was 15. What are you doing? Faggot has not changed.

[Jamie]

Good.

[Andrew Wilson]

It has not changed. You know, he's 42. He's a happy birthday, faggot.

[Jamie]

That's normal. Yeah, I remember you were having a conversation. I think it was on Piers Morgan. Who is the best cat wrangler in the business? That's what he does. He cat wrangles.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, I just talked to him briefly.

[Jamie]

Is he okay?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, that's what I asked him.

[Jamie]

I just.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, I sent him a DM and I was like, for.

[Jamie]

People don't know. He fell.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, he fell and really fucked himself up. And it was the hip. And at his age, the hip, you know, you don't want to. Nothing with the hip. Every time I see anybody who's 60s, they get the hip injury. It's bad.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it's not good. I think they think your lifespan at post hip surgery is like 10 years.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, that's right. And that's.

[Jamie]

He'll probably be better than that.

[Andrew Wilson]

He will. And I think he's mobile.

[Jamie]

Oh, that's good.

[Andrew Wilson]

He's mobile.

[Jamie]

Really good at hip replacements now.

[Andrew Wilson]

I was like, what's, you know, are you doing? He's like, yeah, you know, I'm doing okay. And I was like, don't fuck around with the hips, dude.

[Jamie]

It's crazy that he had to have a hip Replacement. Like, how bad was that fall?

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what the details of.

[Jamie]

It were, but I felt like a sack of spuds. He wrote, wound up needing a new hip after fracturing the neck of his femur and is recovering from surgery in addition to being on crutches for six weeks. He won't be allowed to take any long haul flights for at least 12 weeks. He tripped on a small step inside of a London restaurant.

[Andrew Wilson]

In the tumble. You think he was drunk?

[Jamie]

He could have been a little fired.

[Andrew Wilson]

Up, a little drunk.

[Jamie]

Was also, you know, not the most fit or agile guy in the world.

[Andrew Wilson]

True.

[Jamie]

You know.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

He's only two years older than me.

[Andrew Wilson]

No way.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Really not crazy.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. Damn.

[Jamie]

Yeah, some people don't take care of themselves.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, he got. He got the crack. Yeah, I got to quit these, but, yeah, he got the crack on the. On the hip. And I was like, man, do you.

[Jamie]

Think that American spirits are better than Marlboro's for you?

[Andrew Wilson]

Probably. Yeah. But they taste like shit.

[Jamie]

Do they? Is there a difference? You really like the Marlboro taste?

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

You don't think you get used to American spirits?

[Andrew Wilson]

I think I could. I've been trying the cigarillos. Those are helpful. Like the little mini cigarette cigars.

[Jamie]

Oh, yeah. Ron White used to smoke those. Yeah, he just quit. Totally. He went to a hypnotist, quit instantaneously. But those are loaded with nicotine. Like, way more nicotine than a cigarette. He was smoking those? Yeah. Good little tins. We have those. What are those tins, Jamie, do you know there? It's like a. Like a famous cigar company sells tins of these little tiny cigars. And it's great if you don't have the time to smoke this. Like, you get out of a flight, just want to have a small. But he inhales these like a cigarette.

[Andrew Wilson]

That's brutal, dude. That'll do you in. And then washes it down with whiskey.

[Jamie]

Well, he doesn't drink anymore. No, he quit drinking. Yeah, I think he went.

[Andrew Wilson]

That was always in his bit, though. He was always up there smoking and drinking. And I always thought. I love that. It was.

[Jamie]

Well, he did it. He did it till the wheels fell off. And then the drinking was the big one, you know, he went to a doctor, and the doctor's like, you're gonna die.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Like, your liver is not in good shape. Like, if you back off now, you'll probably live. If you don't, you're not.

[Andrew Wilson]

You got like a few Years left on alcoholics, too. They have it. I don't know if he was one or not. He might have just been like a heavy social drinker. But like real alcoholics, that's no way to live. No, I mean, they stink. They. They're like. I mean, kind of everything about a real alcoholic, it's just they look completely unwell. They're just kind of mangled, you know?

[Jamie]

Yeah. It's a weird disease, too, in that that addiction is one that you can't quit. You can't just. Cold turkey, you'll die. You'll die. There's only a couple of things that'll just kill you if you quit right away. And alcohol is one of them, which is really crazy because it gets integrated into your biological system where you need it to stay alive. Your body's like, okay, we're going to use this for fuel. Going to use this to function.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. They've been weaning people off alcohol with beer for centuries.

[Jamie]

Is that what they use? Beer?

[Andrew Wilson]

They used beer. They would just go, okay, well, it was pretty common to drink beer and ale with dinner, right? They just weanie off with beer.

[Jamie]

That makes sense.

[Andrew Wilson]

They knew. They knew hundreds of years ago books on how alcohol, you know, what are they? Consumption or whatever they called killed you if you just. If you just quit if you were an alcoholic and so they'd wean you off with beer.

[Jamie]

Wonder when they started making hard liquor, because you would imagine, like, fermented things like wine and beer were like, the first things that people consume.

[Andrew Wilson]

I think it's been around for thousands, I mean, several thousand years.

[Jamie]

I wonder, I wonder, like, how they figured it out.

[Andrew Wilson]

I mean, the biggest. The biggest. What was it? The biggest distributor in Europe of wine was the Catholic Church.

[Jamie]

Well, wine has certainly been around forever, but, like, what about hard liquor? Jamie put that into our sponsor, Perplexity. What was the first. What known? I mean, we don't really know because there's so much weird about history, but, like, what was the first in, like, documented hard liquor? Like whiskey, vodka, like that. That's the. That's the stuff that kills you. If you die from beer, boy, you're. You're going hard. Like, Shane Gillis will sit here on a podcast and drink 16 Bud Lights. First alcohol drinks were fermented things like beer, wine, mead, okay, Thousands of years before true liquor. Okay? First recognizable liquor appears when people begin to distill. Archaeological evidence shows fermented drinks. Okay, that's around 7,000 BCE so clear EV is of true alcohol distillation Chinese rice. Beer distillates by about 800 BCE. So a couple thousand years.

[Andrew Wilson]

A couple thousand years.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Wine into strong spirits. The Arab alchemists, alcool. Oh, interesting. Using the term alcool, the root of alcohol.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, they used alcohol's base for alchemy too. That was a base for trying to transmute metal. Yeah.

[Jamie]

I wonder if they were ever successful.

[Andrew Wilson]

They were never successful.

[Jamie]

Nothing. It seems like a crazy thing to waste so much time on trying to turn lead into gold.

[Andrew Wilson]

I mean there was whole kingdoms spent trying to figure out how to do this. And it's just like. And they never. I mean, you think about it makes sense, right? If you're the first one, if you're the one who knows, like you can just create as much wealth for yourself as you want.

[Jamie]

Oh yeah. It's just amazing that they kept trying. Must have been someone saying that they got it. I got it. Dude, just give me some money.

[Andrew Wilson]

Oh, there's tons of frauds. There was tons of frauds who were alchemists who, you know, they were that centuries version of a snake oil salesman, you know. Yeah, of course we can, we can turn. And there was ones even in the 90s who were like, we can now turn, you know, base metals into gold.

[Jamie]

I think there's something now where they can make some gold. But I think it takes an incredible amount of energy and costs more to.

[Andrew Wilson]

Make than it's worth.

[Jamie]

Right. I think it's one of them deals. Is that a fact? I feel like I've read something like that fairly recently. But it's. Here's the weird one. Why gold? Like why does anybody give a fuck about this metal that you can't even use?

[Andrew Wilson]

There's not much of it.

[Jamie]

Right? That's true.

[Andrew Wilson]

What are they saying is 90% of all the gold ever discovered still in circulation?

[Jamie]

Right? Yeah. Well, China just found a huge vein of gold. An enormous amount. But I mean, when you say enormous, it's like relative because I think the entire world supply of gold will fit inside of a football field.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, there's not much of it. Yeah, it's very. I mean very little of it is worth a lot. I mean, even if you think pirates treasure chest, you know, it's not actually that much gold.

[Jamie]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

So it's. Yeah, it's.

[Jamie]

It's a box of gold as opposed.

[Andrew Wilson]

To like extremely valuable. And also you can do things with it you can't do with other metals. The same thing with silver, you know, silver.

[Jamie]

Scientists mimicking the big bang accidentally Turned lead into gold. Yeah. So this is the thing, but I mean, again, I think mimicking the big Bang. Like, what are they using? A particle collider. Like, what are they doing? Okay, how'd they do it? How to steal a proton. Protons found the nucleus of an atom. So extremely small amounts. In fact, a total of some 29 trillionths of a gram they made. Okay. Smashing lead atoms into each other extreme. So it is a particle collider. I guess the working on the ALICE experiment and the Large Hadron Collider. Yeah, there it is. In Switzerland, incidentally. Produced small amounts of gold.

[Andrew Wilson]

You just need a. You just need a particle collider, that's all.

[Jamie]

No big deal. No big deal.

[Andrew Wilson]

He just built it into a whole mountain. And now they're building a second one. They said building into a new mountain, right?

[Jamie]

This episode is brought to you by Simplisafe. The world can be scary sometimes. I mean, take the news, for example. It feels like we hear about something outrageous happening every week. Now more than ever, it's more important to have a security system for your safety and peace of mind. And Simplisafe is one of the best options out there, partly because of how proactive it is. It can help stop and prevent crime in real time. AI powered cameras can detect suspicious activity and alert security agents who can immediately take action. They can speak to intruders, warn them away, flashlights and sirens, and dispatch police. With how great a job it does, no long term contracts and no hidden fees, it's easy to see why Simplisafe continues to be named Best home security systems by U.S. news World Report. Try it out. Right now, my listeners can get 50% off a simply safe home security system at SimpliSafe.com Rogan that's 50% off at SimpliSafe.com RogAN there's no safe like simply safe. Well, there was one. They were put in during the Clinton administration. They were building a particle collider somewhere in the middle of America, trying to figure out where it was.

[Andrew Wilson]

I'm certain there's already more than one.

[Jamie]

Oh, there's many particle colliders, but I'm.

[Andrew Wilson]

Certain there's ones that are, that are even probably larger and hidden than the one that's currently there.

[Jamie]

Really? I think so, yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

Oh, for sure.

[Jamie]

What do you think they're doing with them?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, I mean, the military applications for that are like, they're enormous. The idea that you could make like some kind of particle weapon, you know, or something like this.

[Jamie]

Oh, right, right, right.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. There's no way that the US Military is going to let scientists have a gadget like that somewhere that they don't have complete control over. There's no way.

[Jamie]

I wonder, because I don't know what kind of military applications you would have for particle colliders. I mean, for sure.

[Andrew Wilson]

Big explosions, right?

[Jamie]

There's probably. Yeah, but you're just. You've got a giant loop and you're.

[Andrew Wilson]

Slinging, smashing things together, right?

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

So, I mean, what do you do? You can make them go boomy boom, right?

[Jamie]

Kind of. Well, the real concern with the Large Hadron Collider is that we're going to create many black holes that were going to eat their way through the Earth, that you wouldn't be able to stop them. They would just, like, slide through the Earth, you know?

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, I heard that. I heard they were concerned they're going to open up a portal to a different dimension. I've heard, like they did. Yeah, I've heard all sorts of things. Yeah, we changed our timeline. We're on the new timeline. You know, the whole nine yards. I've heard it all. I'm just saying that anything. It's just been my experience when I look through the historic record that if there's any scientific gadget out there that looks like it has the potential to make something go boom, the United States military has a version of it somewhere.

[Jamie]

Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. But for whatever reason, they abandoned this one during the Clinton administration. I don't remember why they abandoned it, but you could. People can, if they have access to the area where it's at, can still go inside of it and see, like, what they started to build, but they never did. But it would have been larger than Large Hadron Collider. I want to say it's in Georgia. I don't remember, though. But it's a. It was going to be an enormous particle collider. And for some reason they just stopped funding to this thing. But.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, they're talking about funding another. Another one that's twice the size the one that they have now. They say that they need more room to smash more particles together.

[Jamie]

What are they trying to do?

[Andrew Wilson]

I have no idea. Like, that is way outside of my domain. I can tell you. Probably the same things you've heard, right, is they're trying to smash small particles together to see what happens. That's what the kind of the official story is. But it's funny because every time a new story comes out, it's like scientists smash this together with this and this happens. And I'm always like, okay, well, what does that mean? And you never get any of that. Right.

[Jamie]

Right. This one was in Texas. I was in Texas. Yeah, the Clinton. Okay. That's it. Yeah. Spent $2 billion on it and abandoned it. See if you can find some images of it.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

It's outside of Dallas. Oh, it is outside of Dallas. Okay. Abandoned superconducting super Collider site in 2008. Wow. Wonder if you could buy it. That'd be fucking awesome.

[Andrew Wilson]

Getting Brogan's. Brogan's own particle collider.

[Jamie]

I mean, there's nothing there. It's just concrete.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. Let me finish it.

[Jamie]

What's the big deal?

[Andrew Wilson]

Like that weird time machine out in the desert. That was really funny.

[Jamie]

Let me set up an archery range inside of it from this stuff last week. Department of War confirms plans to scale direct energy weapons. Did you see that thing?

[Andrew Wilson]

Why would they need a hydro collider, though, right? Or, you know, a particle collider? Well, because they want to make stuff go boom.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Direct energy weapons. Yes. Department of War has direct energy weapons. Yes. We are scaling them. Wow. Conspiracy theorists went wild over this. Oh, of course. Well, that was a lot of people.

[Andrew Wilson]

The really quick fallout rifle, though. I do. I want my plasma rifle.

[Jamie]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

I do. Like, they have plasma rifles. You're going to buy one, right? Oh, yeah.

[Jamie]

Oh, for sure. You probably get a tax stamp. It'd probably be like a lengthy thing.

[Andrew Wilson]

Oh, for sure.

[Jamie]

I'm glad you're a gun guy, because I want. I wanted to bring up this whole thing with this guy Preddy.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And I haven't talked about. We haven't done a podcast since that guy got killed. But that whole thing. There's a lot of people that don't understand what's going on. And why riots only in Minneapolis. And why riots in the place where there's an ungodly amount of fraud that.

[Andrew Wilson]

Has been discovered coincidentally, right around the same time.

[Jamie]

Exactly. Like instantaneously afterwards, the narrative completely changes. Everybody forgets about the fraud. Now all anybody cares about is ice and fascists and Nazis.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And it's. There's a. You know what a color revolution is?

[Andrew Wilson]

Of course.

[Jamie]

And for people that don't, it's a coordinated effort to cause chaos. And this is a very coordinated thing. The idea that this is an organic protest, these riots. Organic. Is nonsense. It's provably nonsense because now they have access to the signal chats, so they know that these. So these people.

[Andrew Wilson]

Cam Higby, by the way.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

He's been on the front lines of this. The Crucible has been a big supporter of that effort. My channel, I will often snipe his coverage while it's going on. Send my audience over to send in super chats in order to keep this guy going. I think that that work is critical. Yes, it's critical work. And there's not that many people doing it anymore because of how dangerous it has become.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

And so I'm a big supporter of that. Doesn't mean I agree with everything he says politically, but what he's doing on the ground there needs to happen.

[Jamie]

Right. You need to understand that this isn't organic, regardless of how you feel. I don't feel like that guy should have been shot, but I understand what happened. And what happened was chaos. So what happened? First of all, it wasn't ice. People need to understand that. It was Customs, border patrol people. So they were brought in to assist ice, and they're telling this lady to stand away, and then this cop gets very aggressive and shoves her. You have to understand the situation that they're in. Right. And this is not making an excuse for any of it, but you have to, just to put it into context, these people are getting harassed outside of any hotel they're at. People blow horns. They try to smash into the hotel.

[Andrew Wilson]

They dox them.

[Jamie]

They dox them. That's why they're wearing masks. It's a coordinated effort. I'm not saying that guy should have shoved that guy. I don't think he should have. Or that woman. I don't think he should have. And then pepper sprayed. And then the guy who got shot, Preddy, he steps in, which is, if you know anything about concealed carry, if you are a concealed carry holder and you are carrying not just a pistol, but two full magazines as well, you do not ever physically engage with someone. You also are supposed to carry your license on you, and you're supposed to have ID on you. All right?

[Andrew Wilson]

And you're trained specifically for this, by the way. I was a CPL instructor for years.

[Jamie]

Okay.

[Andrew Wilson]

So you know about it. The thing is, there's a framework here, if you don't mind if I add your framework. The framework here is. This is a mathematical formula. So I've been following these extremely closely. Live. And looking at how this is done. Let's go backwards in time. You remember what was going on in California. Nobody died in California. There was an ICE raid on a Home Depot, and they went nuts, and they started smashing police cars. They were starting fires, right? This Was not over somebody dying. And now the narrative, they're trying to make the narrative shift. The Gestapo's in here murdering American citizens. Well, what was going on in California then? Because there was no American citizens getting murdered there. What was going on there was they did an ICE raid in a Home Depot, which anybody who's been to California knows that it used to be that you'd drive down the street and they would all hang out in front of the Home Depot and you'd say two. And they'd hop in the truck and you would, you know, they go, yeah, they were day laborers, right? So it didn't surprise me that they were there doing daily raids. Okay, that doesn't surprise me a bit. And they, they all went ballistic. Now here's what was very curious about the coverage of that and I had a debate with a couple of leftists on this. What I saw was what looked to me to be a police stand down order. There was people who were breaking into, I don't remember if it was an amco or a 7 11, but they were busting into it. And the cops were, were on the side corner watching this go down. Didn't do anything. They didn't do anything about it. If it got too rowdy, they'd clear it out. And then they let them continue. It looked like a stand down order. Like you don't involve yourself. Well, what I think these guys have figured out is a mathematical formula. And it works like this. If the local police are not going to protect the federal buildings, then it's left to the federal police to do this right. In this case, ICE is going to protect its own buildings. The FBI is going to protect its own buildings. If the local police aren't going to protect it and it's surrounded, then who does the protection then? And this is why Trump, he unleashes the National Guard. But where? To those federal buildings to protect those federal buildings. That was the whole point of it. And basically, anytime he's unleashed the National Guard that I've seen, it's two federal buildings to protect them. And so the mathematical formula works like this. The longer it is that protesters are engaging with federal officers whose job is not to do basic street cleanup of thugs, that's the local PD's job. The chances that there's an incident which is going to be a bad incident is going to occur. So basically, the longer you're there, the more attrition there is, the more engagements you have with these federal officers over time. Eventually there's going to be something which is out of pocket. That happens. Or something which is escalatory, that happens. And they're banking on that. And that's why ICE is out in front of these. Or not ice, the antifa people are still out in front of the ICE buildings in front of many states, night after night after night. And it's designed specifically to make sure. It's just a math formula. Right. The longer we're here and the less the local PD involves itself, the more chance of incident between federal officers and us.

[Jamie]

You're knocking steel against flint.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie]

You're waiting for the fire, you're waiting for sparks. And in this particular instance, this guy clearly had been very involved. I don't know if he was a part of the signal chats, but when you go to what's supposed to be a peaceful protest and you're fully armed like that, with two magazines, it's kind of crazy, right? Like, what do you. Why do you need so many bullets now?

[Andrew Wilson]

The liberals are all pro second amendment too.

[Jamie]

That is why. Which I'm for.

[Andrew Wilson]

He had every right like he didn't last month. But okay, I like it.

[Jamie]

I like where it's going. I like that because that's kind of a trap. Did you see what MSNBC did to his image?

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, they were, they where they gussied.

[Jamie]

It up the opposite of what CNN did to me. You know, CNN during the COVID times turned me green and they made me ugly and look like I was dying. And they made him handsome.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

So people would be more sympathetic to him getting shot, which is kind of wild. Like, are ugly people less valuable to MSNBC less marketable? That is crazy to me. Like, look at the difference. Yeah, look at the difference. They shortened up his face. They gave him a little bit of a tan. They widened his face a little bit. It seems like they just made him a little handsomer.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, a little hotter. They gave him. Gave him a bit of that chad jaw, didn't they?

[Jamie]

They shrunk his nose a little too, didn't they? Yeah, they did. They shrunk his nose, gave him a little bit of a handsome jaw. So he looks like.

[Andrew Wilson]

And even if you look at the shoulders, it even looks like they, they may have plumped up the shoulders there a bit.

[Jamie]

A little bit. Yeah. The one on the right looks like. Looks like he's a little plumper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They. They changed the tone of the color. Wild. I mean, they look at they. They change his fucking teeth, man.

[Andrew Wilson]

Communist news.

[Jamie]

Look, they gave him veneers.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Look at the difference in his teeth. He's a much more handsome guy like that one on the right is like the handsome brother. And the one on the left is like, fuck, why couldn't I Look on the one hand.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. The one on the right, they were twins and he took more of the protein.

[Jamie]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

That was what happened. The thing is, this doesn't surprise me, by the way, what's going on. And this is a well orchestrated, well crafted thing. And the signal chats prove that. But we knew it anyway.

[Jamie]

Yes. Just by government, by the way. Allegedly at least involving Minnesota state government.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, it involves Waltz.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

So that's not alleged.

[Jamie]

Right?

[Andrew Wilson]

It's not alleged that involves Waltz. It's not alleged that it involves Frey.

[Jamie]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

And it's not alleged. Well, what is alleged is the allegations of fraud. Of course.

[Jamie]

But there would be a reason why you would want to distract from all that fraud.

[Andrew Wilson]

Sure.

[Jamie]

And that would motivate you to do something along these lines. So let's go back to the instance. So you've got these cops that are on these CBP guys that are on high alert. Right. There's a lot of tension. People are screaming. If you're in an environment like that all day. Look, I've never been a police officer, but I was a security guard. And when I was, I was a security guard for Great Woods. And by the way, I'm not comparing this in any way, but I'm just explaining my mentality. When I was there, it was very much us versus them. It was a small group of guys that were working at. I worked at Great woods center for the Performing Arts in Mansfield, Massachusetts. It's a concert venue in Mansfield. And this was when I was fighting. So it was me and a bunch of guys from my taekwondo team got hired to be security guards. One of the guys came and said, hey, you guys want to get a job working as a security guard? It's great. You get to see concerts and it was like a good pay. And you know, I was doing a bunch of random jobs back then while I was competing just to sort of pay bills. And I said, yeah, okay, what I have to do? And like there's nothing. You just go there and you were. First day on the job, I go there. Some guy had stolen one of the security golf carts. So there's this dude named Alley Cat. He was the head guy of security. He was character hilarious. His main dream was to open up a. A bar. Libation, Alley Cats, libations and victuals. He had this whole dream of like just A real character, but this guy was a hardcore. And they caught the guy who stole this golf cart, tack him to the ground, and he was beating him in the face with a walkie talkie. This is my first day on the job, so I'm like, okay, so this is what we're doing. And we kind of became like almost like cops for this place. But there was very much an us versus them mentality. And it turns out it was a lot more involved than I ever thought it was. And then one day I was at a Neil Young concert. I was working the Neil Young concert and riots broke out. There was fire, it was cold out, and there was like a grassy area. So there was like a lawn. So it was like, there's the inside. Not inside. It was like an outdoor concert venue, but there was a roof to part of it. And then the back of it was like this lawn area that was in the back. And these guys had started bonfires up there and we, we were supposed to go in there and break up the bonfires. And then my friend Larry, who is like one of the most mild mannered guys you'd ever want to meet, but you know, a elite black belt, he gets in a fight with this guy and some guy pushes him and he knocks this guy down. And I'm like, okay, chaos has broken out. Let's get the fuck. I'm like, let's quit. Let's get the fuck out of here. And I used to wear a hoodie. I used to carry a hoodie. So I could just zip up the hoodie over my security outfit and like, bye. Because I knew there was going to come a time where I was like, not getting shot, stabbed, killed, whatever, stomped this venue for 20 bucks an hour or whatever the fuck. So I wound up leaving that day. But you. There was a very. And I, it was, I remember very clearly like, oh, this is probably what happens with cops times a million. Like you develop this us versus them. Because it was very much us. We would meet up at the beginning of our shift. We would all talk about what's going down. We're mostly, we were catching people that were bringing in alcohol. Like women in their purses would, you know, you know, like some Carly Simon or something be playing. They'd sneak in a bottle of wine, you know, and James Taylor, you know, there was a lot of that. And so we would, we'd have like literal fucking trash cans filled with bottles of wine and liquor. At the end of the night, we would get to keep them. We'd take them Home. And so this us versus that's a nice perk. It was kind of fun.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, that's a nice perk.

[Jamie]

Yeah. He's like, also, I was illegal to drink. I was only 19 at the time.

[Andrew Wilson]

But an even nicer perk.

[Jamie]

Yeah. It was very clearly us versus them. And the tensions were very high. Yeah. Like, whenever some weird shit went down, everybody puffed up their chest and everybody was ready to throw down. And I was like, this job is not good. But it educated me. I was like, okay. And in my mind I was like, okay, this must be like this when you're a police officer again, times a million, that the think of what's going on.

[Andrew Wilson]

I don't know why. They have their codes. Right. They have their oaths they take and then they have their little codes to each other too.

[Jamie]

Exactly, exactly.

[Andrew Wilson]

But I don't blame them. It seems completely. There's a certain wisdom to this. Like, hey, look, that could be me 100%. And so if it's you, I'm gonna be right there with you 100%. And then if it's me, you're gonna be right there with me. I get it.

[Jamie]

Also, there is a tremendous amount of social media content that anybody could access at any given time where a lot of these dorks are calling for violence. You know, it's just. It's all over the place. You could find it. The least likely people that would ever be involved in any sort of an altercation are on TikTok calling for violence. We gotta kill these motherfuckers. We gotta shoot these motherfuckers. And these guys are out there in the middle of that. All right? So tensions are high as fuck. And they're getting screamed at all the time. They're on red alert. They're wearing vests, they're carrying.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, their wives are getting called and threatened and they're saying they're gonna rape their kids.

[Jamie]

Exactly.

[Andrew Wilson]

And they're saying that they're gonna brutalize their family members. And they give them calls in the middle of the night and they whisper to them, how's your dad such and such doing? You know, and just cryptic things like that and let it go.

[Jamie]

Uh huh, Exactly. And this is very coordinated. It's very coordinated and organized. And the way they find out all their information, it was very creepy. So again, I don't think this guy should have pushed that lady. I mean, the way he did it was very violent. She was a small woman and he shoved her very violently to the ground. Then this other guy, Preddy, gets In between them. Okay. Which again, if you are a concealed carry holder, is a giant. No, no. You do not fucking do that. You do not engage with law enforcement when you're armed. You shouldn't engage with anyone ever. Ever.

[Andrew Wilson]

I mean, you should be avoiding. You should be trained to avoid conflict.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

That's. The whole thing is, like, if you're armed, you move into that next level of you need to really be avoiding conflict. You're not supposed to be in bars, drinking. You're not supposed to be at big parties and things like this where violent things can occur. You can take it to church, defend the church. Other than that, you're supposed to be avoiding conflict.

[Jamie]

Exactly. So he gets in between the officer and this woman, puts his hands on the officer, and then he gets pepper sprayed. They go to the ground. There's a lot of scrambling going on. Now, you have to understand what happens when you get pepper sprayed. Okay. I've never been pepper sprayed, but I did get tear gassed once during Fear Factor. We did a Fear Factor stunt where these people had to. I forget what they had to do, but we had built this, or there was like, a structure, and they were inside the structure and they released tear gas. And this Charger, I got hit with it. It's pretty brutal.

[Andrew Wilson]

But it's painful.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it sucks.

[Andrew Wilson]

And he can't breathe.

[Jamie]

You can't breathe. Your eyes swell up. Your nose starts running like crazy. Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

And that stays on your clothes.

[Jamie]

You don't think well when that happens. So this. This guy's clearly not thinking well, and he can't see. And he's, you know. And then they're on him. Right. So they're on him. And then one guy, whether he yells out he's got a gun or grabs the gun first, I'm not sure, but he has a gun. So they see his gun in the middle of the scramble. The guy pulls his gun out and moves off. Now, this is where it gets. This is where it gets weird. I believe the gun was a SIG P run 3, 2, 0. A SIG P320 is known for having accidental discharges. It is. It has a reputation for it. It has a very specific type of striker. It doesn't have a safety the way some other guns do. And you can have negligent discharges with SIGs.

[Andrew Wilson]

Now, is the. The P320. Is that a hammered model?

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

Okay, so it's not a striker fire.

[Jamie]

No, wait a minute. No, no. It is a striker fire. It's. Let's pull it up. Because I'm not. I know that 365 is built very differently. The 320 breaks cleaner.

[Andrew Wilson]

But I thought the 320 had a hammer, was double action and single action. And then you might be right. I didn't think it was a striker fire. Most of the P models are not striker fires that I'm aware of. I could be wrong.

[Jamie]

Well, the 365. The P365 is definitely different than the 320. They have a different striking mechanisms. They're known for accidental discharges.

[Andrew Wilson]

Okay. I can't tell if that's a hammer underneath the slide.

[Jamie]

Well, let's just. Just what is this? What is the trigger Mechanism of a Sig P320? Put that in there. And what is it that makes it prone to accidental discharge? If you look up sig P320 online in any search engine, accidental discharge comes up very quickly.

[Andrew Wilson]

It is striker fired. Yeah.

[Jamie]

Okay.

[Andrew Wilson]

Okay, so it's a modular striker fired trigger mechanism. When pressed, trigger bar moves forward, disengages safety lever, and sear releasing the striker. Okay, so it's a striker fired pistols. Okay, got it.

[Jamie]

So as of 2017, SIG changed the way they make their guns because the trigger itself was heavier than what it is now. Not just the pull, but the actual mechanism of the trigger was heavier. If you drop it. So if this is the barrel of the gun where the bullet comes out, and this is where you're holding on your hand, if you drop it, it'll. It'll discharge, and it'll discharge without. Without moving the slide. Which is kind of crazy because what happens is something in the. Dropping it on the back where the.

[Andrew Wilson]

Handle is releases the disconnector.

[Jamie]

Probably it causes that heavier trigger, the heavier weight to the trigger to drop down, and it will discharge. Okay. As of 2017, they made the trigger lighter, and it doesn't do that anymore.

[Andrew Wilson]

Okay.

[Jamie]

And There's a whole YouTube video where this guy explains it and shows that you can do it. With the older models, if you drop them. If you drop them on their side, they don't do it. If you drop them barrel first, they don't do it. But if you drop them handle first, and it hits the. The back where you hold it, where the. You know, the. The. What is it called? The beaver tail.

[Andrew Wilson]

The internal hammer drops and bang.

[Jamie]

Exactly. And it's one of the only guns that does that.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And so much so that I believe you should search this. I believe the Dallas Police Department stopped issuing them to their officers. See if that's true. Before I go further because I don't want to get any legal weeds here, but I have one. I have a 320. I've never had a problem with it. Here it is. Dallas Police suspends use of pistol manufacturer. Okay. Yeah. And it's because of that.

[Andrew Wilson]

So what are these chambered in? 9:40.

[Jamie]

It's nine.

[Andrew Wilson]

Nine.

[Jamie]

They're nines. But the. So that's the gun this guy has. So when this CBP officer grabs his gun, he was moving off, and it appears. It's very grainy. The video, it appears there's an accidental discharge. Now, you can make an accidental discharge of this gun without touching the trigger. If there's any kind of pressure on the trigger, if it is a modified trigger, if there's anything that engages with it, even. Even a slight amount and you move the slide at all, that gun will go off. And there's videos of it online. You could find videos online. See if you can find videos of it online where a guy shows how you can get that gun to negligent discharge. Because it will. It will. At least the pre 2017 model.

[Andrew Wilson]

I didn't see his hand go on the slide of the gun, though.

[Jamie]

Yeah, well, he's holding it. You know, it's. The hard thing is it's fucking glaring.

[Andrew Wilson]

You can't see. I looked at it from both angles, but it looked to me like he was holding it, like by the handle.

[Jamie]

With no finger on the trigger.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

But it does seem like, at least in some of the takes that I've seen, I may be wrong, but it seems like that gun might have negligent discharged.

[Andrew Wilson]

Now, usually when someone's holding a gun and there's a negligent discharge, it's because they pulled the trigger, right?

[Jamie]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

So in this case, let's. I mean, I'm gonna assume it for a second. So the gun drops on the side. Striker fired. Let's say it's. I don't know what the mechanism is. We'll say the disconnector. That makes the disconnector go. The hammer drops. Bam. It hits the primer.

[Jamie]

Gun fires, gun fires, hits the ground. These guys think they hear gun. These guys think this guy might have a gun. In the scramble, they don't know. This is all savage, high pressure. They open fire on him. That's what I believe happened. You know, so when people say, oh, they straight up executed this guy.

[Andrew Wilson]

Thank you.

[Jamie]

Better.

[Andrew Wilson]

There's a little more nuance.

[Jamie]

There's more nuance to it. There's chaos. There's the fog of chaos. You're in the middle of this, like, very high stress situation where you've already pepper sprayed this guy. Now you're in a physical scramble. Someone says he has a gun. Gun goes off, bang, bang, bang. You're just shooting. I'm assuming this is just a lot of, you know, a lot of.

[Andrew Wilson]

Guess that's a lot of bad stuff that has to happen in sequence.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

Like the. The fact even if this gun is recalled as a model that had these issues. Right. I'm guessing that it wasn't every. Every one of them that had the issue. Some of them. Right. Probably not all. And if it's because it has to have a lot of force for it to go off, or the slide has to be, you know, you have to be moving the slide or something like this. What I saw was him holding the pistol how you or I would hold the pistol with the finger off the trigger. I did not actually see, like, what would have caused that force.

[Jamie]

This is where it gets weird. So there have been documented instance, like the pig, the. The Sig P320. There's a lot of legal stuff involved in this. There's. There's tons of cases. Some of them are like, there was one cop where they said the cop got shot because the gun accidentally went off. And everybody's like, oh, man, sig's in trouble. Turns out that cop had a recant that. And he accidentally hit the trigger and shot a cop. But he. He wanted. So this is one. So this guy, his gun just goes off. Now he doesn't have his finger on the trigger. It just goes off. Now there's another one where a cop is in the middle of a precinct and he leans forward, he's got the holster on the outside. He leans forward and the gun goes off. He does not have his hand on the trigger. He's not touching the gun at all. See if you can find the one where the cop does it. So there's a cop where. He's in the precinct. His gun is. Now here's the question. Was there something touching the trigger? Was the holster bad? Was there debris in it? Was there something. Was his shirt touching it? Did he jam the gun in the holster? And maybe like his shirt got stuck in, it touched the trigger.

[Andrew Wilson]

There's also the second gun theory.

[Jamie]

And then he moves forward. If the guy had a second gun.

[Andrew Wilson]

There'S also the second gun theory. So I understand what you're saying, and maybe it met all of the conditions for that, but it does seem unlikely to me. But it's possible that he's just holding it and it just happens to go off.

[Jamie]

It would seem unlikely with any other gun. So if the guy had a Glock.

[Andrew Wilson]

But both of these cases are from the holster. This guy's grabbing from the holster. He's grabbing from the holster. Well, the cop had already pulled it out of the holster and now he's holding it and then it goes off.

[Jamie]

Right. But it's so low resolution, it's hard to see what's going on with his hands. So if there had been some funkiness with the trigger, you know, who knows where he got the gun? Who knows whether or not that gun had an aftermarket trigger. Who knows what's going on? But as he's doing this, you're in the middle of the chaos. You're ramped up with adrenaline. Who knows if that guy accidentally, while he was holding it, put pressure on the slide and caused that gun to negligent discharge? I don't know. This is the speculation. And the reason why the speculation is so it's, it's, it's, this is something we're talking about is because it's a Sig P320.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And there's so many stories about that.

[Andrew Wilson]

It's not outside the realm of possibility. In other words.

[Jamie]

Right. Which is the worst case scenario. Right. You got all this chaos and then you got that fucking gun and that gun goes off.

[Andrew Wilson]

But let me ask you this. Let's say we, we adjust for this. There's an investigation. Turns out that this 320 model was one of the ones that, you know.

[Jamie]

Was an older model.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. Or something like this. Or it was issued after the fact and it's newer. Let's just say it's newer and they've gotten this design flaw out of there. Let's just assume for a second. All those things being equal now. Right. When a leftist points at that and says that's an execution, what's your opinion then? If it's the case? There is no negligent discharge. There is none of that. How would you view it then?

[Jamie]

Well, it's extremely unfortunate case of what happens during chaos. I don't think it's an execution. I don't think they pulled the gun from him and then just shot him.

[Andrew Wilson]

But that's rhetoric being used, right?

[Jamie]

It is. But you know, which you're automatically going to have if you have a guy get shot. Can we watch a video? Let's watch a video and see if we can discern when the shot fires off. Because does it before or after they say he's got a gun? Because someone says he has a gun, one of the officers removes the gun, and then a shot goes off.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Now, there's another speculation that the guy who shot him had a negligent discharge he didn't like. Maybe he had his hand on the trigger and he got a little amped up and it went off, and then he just kept going to him. Kept going. That's possible, too. I. Not exactly sure. There's a ton of angles, ton of different cell phone angles. None of them are really crystal clear.

[Andrew Wilson]

And the thing that's interesting about this is I'm even willing to kind of grant it to the left just on appearance alone for a second. Just for the sake of, like, logically taking this to its conclusion. Let's say that the cops were totally wrong on this. They messed the whole thing up. They screwed it up. It was a negligent discharge from the officer himself. It killed this guy. It was totally unjustified. Okay, but now what? Right? Is it the case that we're gonna, what, stop deporting illegal immigrants? We're gonna stop that. ICE is gonna stop. Border Patrol's gonna stop doing its job. ICE is gonna stop doing its job because of a single incident, even if all of the officers involved were incorrect? Of course not. That's ridiculous. Right. The thing about this incident is it's being used as a catalyst to now say, they're the Gestapo, just like they were trying to do with Rene. They're the Gestapo. They're here to be the jackbooted thugs of the Trump administration that's being used now as the new rallying cry and catalyst for the. And it's post hoc justification. That's what makes me so angry about it. It's like, no, no, no. You're out here doing all of this long before anybody was getting shot by ice. Okay? You were doing this long before there was any supposed abuses by ice. It seems like what they do is they set up the reactions, right? They set up the conditions, maximize the conditions for horrible actions to happen. And then when they do, they use those as the justification for why they were ever out there in the first place. And it's like, what's going on here? That's what bothers me.

[Jamie]

Right? This is the quintessential description of the color revolution. I mean, they're trying to create chaos. And again, it's very well funded and very well organized. It's not as simple as. This is an organic protest that people are fired up Because ICE is in their community. That's not really what's going on at all. But I think there's a lot of good people that are wrapped up in that, that think they're doing a good thing, and they really do think they're fighting fascism because they exist in these bubbles and they're.

[Andrew Wilson]

I believe them. Yeah, I do believe them, that they think that they're fighting against fascism. And I've debated with enough of these people on what historically fascism is in comparison to what they perceive it as. That. I do think that they believe that 100%. I just think it's an unjustified belief, and I think it's ridiculous.

[Jamie]

It's not accurate.

[Andrew Wilson]

It's not accurate.

[Jamie]

You know, one of the things that we went over the other day is we talked about the deportations, right? And that there's been somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 million deportations, but 1.6 of them were like, self deportations. 1.6 of them are like, people were notified and they said, we're just get the fuck out of here. I don't want to be in jail.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, good.

[Jamie]

And then a half a million of them were. And then. But people are saying very few of them have been violent criminals. But we found out there was like 8%. This is just 8% of what we know has been caught. That is a lot of violent criminals. If you got a half a million people and 8% of them are murderers and rapists. And they snuck in, not even snuck in, because they were allowed access to the United States over the last four years somewhere to the tune of. Let's be like, super charitable, let's say it's only 10 million, because I think it's a lot more. And they don't. Yeah, they don't really know the number because it's really. The numbers that they're giving are based on interactions. Right, but how many people snuck through and they didn't have an interaction with them? It's a lot, man. It's a lot of people. And they did this shit on purpose. And they did this shit because they want more congressional seats because the census doesn't count citizens. It doesn't count legal citizens. It just counts human beings. So the more citizens you have in an area, the more congressional seats you have. And then there's places like California that make it illegal to show your id. You're not allowed. Not only are you not supposed. Which you should have to show your fucking ID when you vote.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yes.

[Jamie]

Right. So we know that you're legally voting they made it so you can't show your id, which is the only. The only you could steel man this to the end of time. The only reason why you do that is because you want to cheat.

[Andrew Wilson]

Of course.

[Jamie]

The only reason.

[Andrew Wilson]

Of course. Well, it's not just that, but you make. You make a good, compelling point here. The idea, even if it was the case, let's just say almost none of them are violent criminals. Let's just give it to them. Just kind of for the sake of argument here, we'll give it to them. So what, the people don't want them here? That's it. These are supposed to be the biggest believers in democracy and Republicanism ever. That's what they're fighting against, is the evil fascists. It's like, well, here the people spoke. Okay, I'm gonna say. And the people said, we don't want illegal immigrants here. We want them out of here. It doesn't matter what the conditionals are for violent criminality or not violent criminality. If you're really a big believer in the Republic, like you claim, why is it that when Trump gets elected to do exactly this job, you impede it at every turn?

[Jamie]

Yeah, they don't want it to happen.

[Andrew Wilson]

They don't.

[Jamie]

Because it was a part of the strategy for a uni party. I mean, this is. Elon came on and was, you know, was very passionate about wanting to explain this to people. I mean, it's one of the reasons why he did it before the election. Like, you have to understand the plan that's in place. And what they're doing is they're trying to make it so that no one but the Democrats can ever win ever again. And one of the best ways to do that is to ship untold numbers of people to swing states.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. Which is what they're doing.

[Jamie]

It's what they did. They didn't just do it. They flew them out there, they gave them EBT cards, they put them on Social Security. We had this woman, we documented, we talked about this woman who worked for God, I forget which department, but her job was to turn these people from illegal immigrants into what she described, they described to her as clients. And so you would tell these people, are you. Yes. So her question was to them, do you have a permanent disability? So do you have headaches? Does your back hurt? I get headaches. My back hurts. I guess I'm permanently disabled. And all you have to do is, like. You don't have to have, like. Like, clear evidence. You have. All your discs are fused. You can't walk or you have. Yeah, no, you just have to have a back hurt. Your back hurts. Well, what man who's A laborer, who's 35 years old doesn't have back pain?

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Like y' all do. So they come to you, they said, do you have headaches and back pain?

[Andrew Wilson]

What man is an office worker doesn't have back pain? Right.

[Jamie]

Everybody fucking everybody does. You get older, you get back pain, especially if you don't take care of your back. And so these guys are all being roped into the system and then they get money, they get Social Security money, they get money from taxpayers essentially forever. So if you can get those people to vote, they will most certainly vote for the people that are giving them that money. Right? Most certainly vote for the people that are moving them into the Roosevelt Hotel in New York City.

[Andrew Wilson]

Just like how Muslims will vote. Even though at the local level they oppose all leftist policy, they'll vote at a national level for leftists because they bring in their family members, they bring in, they allow the importation of people that they want here. So yeah, they utilize the system for the aims. And for Democrats this is all good. And of course for Republicans it's all bad. And Elon's right, he is right that Democrats, and here's what I see, the bird's eye view, right? Trump what they're gonna do. Democrats gonna win the midterms. By hook or by crook, they're gonna win the midterms. And when they do, if they have the power in the House to do this, they're gonna impeach him day one. And we'll have, now it'll be the thrice impeached president. Right? And they'll obstruct him, they'll obstruct his agenda the entire step of the way under this elongated impeachment. And they'll just run out the clock. Yeah, they'll just run it out.

[Jamie]

It's, it's all pretty fucking crazy. It's really crazy. Gad Saad has a great way describe this. He calls it suicidal empathy. And you know, a lot of these people that are on the left that are self described leftists, they're very kind people and they, they want, you know, everyone to have a chance to live in America and be good people. And they don't understand they're being used as pawns by much more cynical people that are just trying to get total control. And if you want to know what total control looks like and what kind of restrictions could be imposed on a Western society, look no further than the UK. Look what's going on in England right now. 12,000 people have been arrested so far last year for. In the last year, rather, for social media posts, just social media posts criticizing immigration. There was some new thing that they just passed that makes it so that you're supposed to tell on people who are talking in pubs, who are having conversations in pubs that you think are dangerous conversations.

[Andrew Wilson]

There was that woman in the UK who was SA'd and then called the guy a name via text.

[Jamie]

Yes, she called him a faggot. Yeah, yeah, she was sexually assaulted. She called him a faggot. And then she was arrested.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, she was arrested. And I remember arguing on Piers Morgan. I was debating with a leftist on this. This was the topic at the time.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

And the leftist who looked at me like he was a faggot too, said he was defending it tooth and nail. Right. This is a good thing because we want to get rid of stigma. The idea is to try to destigmatize the thing. See, words create stigma and stigma creates harm. Values and harm. Values are evil, they're bad. That's the whole moral system. If we reduce harm, that's moral. If we increase harm, that's immoral. So that's the zero sum way that they look at this. Right. If you're increasing it bad, if you're decreasing it good. So if we're decreasing stigmatization of an activity that we think is protected, then that's reducing harm. Therefore that's the moral position.

[Jamie]

Crazy.

[Andrew Wilson]

They are crazy. That is actually a crazy way to look at the world.

[Jamie]

Well, it's very dystopian. It's very spooky that it's happening so quickly and that the UK has become the leader in the world for arresting people, for social media posts. No one would have ever saw that coming five, six years ago. But this is what happens when you get total control of a population and you don't stop where you're at, you continue to move forward, you continue to try to get more and more control. And this is this new thing where they're trying to get people to turn people in for bar talk, which is just crazy. It's just crazy. So that's where it goes. If you're really a liberal, a real liberal, a real progressive person who really believes in free speech, you should believe in all speech. And you have to. I mean, this was the ADL's position way back in the day when they would allow the Ku Klux Klan to march.

[Andrew Wilson]

They would say, look and then fight for the right to do so.

[Jamie]

Yes. I mean, this is what it used to be. It used to be an understanding that as complicated as this thing is, you've got to allow people to say horrible things so that you can counter them with better points and you make a better argument, and then people see your side and then society moves forward in a generally possible way, you know, in.

[Andrew Wilson]

The online dialectic, the way that it moves between groups. And I think that now online influencers, podcasters, political commentators actually do have political. They have some political capital now which can be spent the same way low level politicians have political capital which can now be spent. They actually are connected oftentimes with politicians and operate as mouthpieces on behalf of whatever that political arm is.

[Jamie]

Well, you would say that about the right too, wouldn't you?

[Andrew Wilson]

Of course. But I don't see it as prevalent as I do with the left. The left, for instance, there was a whole thing that used to go on, on Twitch where an organization came in and bought up all the twitch mouthpieces. That's what they did. And this is something which has been going on for a long time. But what's interesting with the political capital angle from these leftists, they don't care what the means are. The ends are what. That's all they care about. Right. The means to get there. Totally irrelevant to them. From their view, though, that makes a sixth sort of sense of. They believe that they're fighting against Nazis, literal Nazis. So if you believed that you were in a war with literal Nazis, what wouldn't you do to complete that war? What means. Wouldn't you go to. What means of sabotage would you not do? What cars would you not blow up? What cops would you not eliminate in order to stop the rise of the new Hitler? And it's like. And they're expending their political capital on that message, and that message has a lot of influence on people.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it also. There's so many people that are getting attention by feeding into the rhetoric. There's so many people that are making viral clips of them threatening, like menacing, like these weird, dorky liberal guys. Like these guys that you would think of. Pacifists are literally calling for violence. I got one of them because it's like the most unlikely guy. Like, you see this guy doing this, like, hey, buddy, like, who. What. What are you saying?

[Andrew Wilson]

Who's following you into battle?

[Jamie]

Yeah, who's. I'm gonna. I'm gonna send you. Because it's. It's the way he says it too, is so like, like he's watched too many fucking TV shows, this guy. Let's. Because it's. It's the terminology that he uses that is actually kind of funny if it wasn't so scary. Put this on real quick.

[Andrew Wilson]

Sure.

[Jamie]

Because it's so when you see this guy's doughy face and his understanding of real violence. Listen to this. When combat starts, we all roll initiative.

[Andrew Wilson]

I'm gonna say that again.

[Jamie]

And anyone. Everyone knows what I'm talking about when I say this. When combat starts, we all roll initiative. I mean, I hate to laugh because it's kind of fucking serious because they're inciting violence and they're calling for insurrection. They're calling for people to take to the streets and start violence. But that guy, like, what, you're not gonna roll initiative? What does that even mean?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, I mean, I think it just means we all go, right? When violence start, we all go.

[Jamie]

Dungeons and Dragons reference. Is it rolling?

[Andrew Wilson]

Oh, rolling.

[Jamie]

Oh, no, it's. No, the tweet says Dungeons and Dragons in it. I don't even know. Oh, God. Says Dungeons and Dragons nerds. Means business, I think. Oh, so he's doing a search on that. Does roll initiative. Is that a part of Dungeons and Dragons roll that. Because I only know of Dungeons and Dragons from strangers.

[Andrew Wilson]

So does. Does his AR do 2d6 damage?

[Jamie]

But it's just the menacing way that he stares into the camera. Okay, here it is. Combat rolling for initiative determines the turn order in combat. Each player and monster rolls a 20 sided die and adds their dexterity modifier.

[Andrew Wilson]

Oh, God.

[Jamie]

But I mean, this is what I'm saying. It's like, it's a lot of. It is cosplay.

[Andrew Wilson]

That does sound like he is saying though. We all go there, right?

[Jamie]

Yes. Yeah, it sounds like it's what he's saying. And it's also. It gives meaning to people whose lives do not have a lot of meaning. Right. Like all of a sudden, you're a part of a greater cause. You're a part of a very important movement.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, you're stopping Nazis.

[Jamie]

Yeah, you're stopping Nazis. And it's, you know, relatively safe from the comfort of your own home, staring at your phone on TikTok.

[Andrew Wilson]

Sure.

[Jamie]

You know, and you get all excited about it and you cheer. And these are the same people that cheered when Charlie Kirk got shot for just talking like that was fine. But this one is not good. You know, it's all like. It's very fucked up, man.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, and they're gonna kill. They'll kill more Commentators, they can get away with it. Happily. I mean, part of that whole signal chat that's dangerous that people aren't talking about. That's probably the most dangerous aspect of it. And I can't prove this, but it's been my experience that left wing communities and left wing groups, especially online communities and online groups really pander to the mentally ill in a big way. Really pander to them. And I think that it's a form of weaponization. They want to attract the extremely mentally ill into these communities and it helps with actually what is radicalization. And they play on the fact that they're mentally ill in order to do this.

[Jamie]

Well, this is antifa. Right. This is why.

[Andrew Wilson]

It's not just antifa. It goes beyond that. Sure. If you go to some of these tiktokers communities, you go to some of the online political pundits communities who are far left. Okay. These people who are in there are fruit loops, man.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

They are lunatics. And they're pandered to. They're pandered to. Oh, okay. You can't say this to them. That's ableist. You can't tell them you're a weirdo because that's mean. And not only are they pandered to, but I think that that's the source of the weapon. If it's the case that these people don't care about death, they don't care like, oh, the outcome's going to be death. That guy shot at the ICE agents not too long ago. Remember? He was on top of the roof, he was shooting across with I think a Mauser rifle. And they, they dusted him. They killed him or he shot himself, I don't remember which.

[Jamie]

When was this?

[Andrew Wilson]

This was a few months back.

[Jamie]

I don't know about this one. I don't think.

[Andrew Wilson]

No, there was a guy, he was.

[Jamie]

This is how callous have become.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. He was taking shots at, I believe it was ICE agents in front of the ICE facility.

[Jamie]

Oh, that's right.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. He was using, I believe he was using like a Mauser rifle or something.

[Jamie]

Okay.

[Andrew Wilson]

Now I remember early on with the Charlie Kirk thing, they were actually making these connections because he had used a Mauser as well. Right. To shoot Charlie Kirk. That was the. So people were making those early connections. Wait, is this a sequence of events? Does the Mauser mean something here? Does that particular rifle have special meaning? You know how people are online.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

But anyway, the interesting thing is like they don't care if they die. They're dying martyrs. They don't Care. And it's really easy to weaponize mentally ill people that way because they don't care. These are the same people who have the high suicide rates for a reason because they're already mentally ill. Like the troons and others, which many of them you find are connected to trans people almost every time.

[Jamie]

Also SSRIs.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yep.

[Jamie]

This is the other problem is that how many of these people are on these psychiatric medications, that violent ideation is a part of the side effects of these suicidal or, excuse me, these psychiatric drugs. There's a lot of people that have psychotic thoughts when they get on some of these different SSRIs and different psychiatric medications. So you've got people that are already fucked up mentally, and then you've got them on these medications that cause them to do all kinds of crazy things.

[Andrew Wilson]

And aren't women, aren't women taking much more in the way of SSRI pills than men are? And who do we see is on the bullhorns and loudspeakers at most of these events? It's women.

[Jamie]

Well, particularly liberal women.

[Andrew Wilson]

Particularly liberal women.

[Jamie]

I'm sure you've seen the statistics, but I very lopsided. Save them because they're kind of nutty. What's interesting is the number, like the least mentally ill in terms of numbers is conservative men. Conservative men, I think it's like, because they're normal. I think, okay, young liberal women, 56% report a mental health diagnosis. Young moderate women, 18, 29, 28%. Young conservative women, 27%, only slightly less. So for men, it is 34% of all liberal men. 34%. So a third of all liberal men are mentally ill. 22% of moderate men and 16% of conservative men.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, but do you know what the lunatics argue when you bring that up, these lunatics, they'll argue, no, no, no. The conservative men are just as mentally ill. It's just undiagnosed. Because there's a stigma in conservative communities about going to get your mental illness diagnosed. And I always point out, and I think this is an interesting way to point this out, like maybe they're not going to get diagnosed because they don't have a problem. Did you ever think of that?

[Jamie]

It's possible. It's possible it's undiagnosed. Because I think that is accurate, though, that there is a stigma about mental health and therapy and things along those lines in conservative. I mean, if you want to like.

[Andrew Wilson]

I agree, but I also think that what happens is when you're, when you're talking especially about the voodoo that is psychology. And it is, it is voodoo. I have very little respect for psychology.

[Jamie]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

I don't even consider it science. I consider that there's scientific methods used for data gathering, but I don't consider psychology a science at all.

[Jamie]

And that's psychology. Psychiatry gets even weirder because then you start out adding medication, you're not just talking about therapy.

[Andrew Wilson]

It's all voodoo as far as I'm concerned. I think that men, often especially conservative men, get as much out of their close relationships with friends and family as they would going to a psychologist. In other words, I think just having somebody to talk to who's a close friend, who's intricately familiar with your situation probably gives you more value than going to a complete stranger who has learned manipulation techniques. That's what they learn essentially is manipulation techniques. I think there's more value there. And so I think that the stigma which exists there doesn't exist because it's like you're not manly, which is how they try to frame it. I think the stigma exists there because so many conservative men go, well, I tried that shit and it was nonsense. I tried it and it sucked. I tried it and it was worth it. I went to marriage counseling, did nothing, sided with the wife. Right. I went for this issue, did nothing. But when I went out and had some beers with my friends, that actually helped relieve some of these issues.

[Jamie]

I think the problem with that is there's a lot of guys who don't have good friends, you know, and you don't have someone that you can count on, unfortunately. You know, there's just, there's a lot of men out there that are lost.

[Andrew Wilson]

I agree. But I think that the conservative men seem like they have closer longevity with friends than progressive men do.

[Jamie]

Yes. And they don't abandon them when they change their opinions on things.

[Andrew Wilson]

Right.

[Jamie]

So here's the self reported data from 2022 survey analysis found that 51% of conservatives report report excellent mental health compared to 20% of liberals. That's a big difference.

[Andrew Wilson]

Huge.

[Jamie]

It's a giant difference.

[Andrew Wilson]

I don't think stigma could account for that.

[Jamie]

No, it can't. It's like, it's not just stigma, it's like, it's also like, like what is, what does it mean to be conservative? Does it mean, you know, taking account for your own actions, discipline, hard work ethic, all those things are actually good for your mental health, like pulling yourself up and getting back to work and doing things?

[Andrew Wilson]

I think now, and I think maybe it always should have Been framed this way. I think now for the label of conservative to apply, we really kind of start with religious foundationalism. That's what is becoming, fast becoming the delineation.

[Jamie]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

Having a framework, having the framework and the religious framework is almost instantly going to put you in that. Moving towards that conservative camp almost every single time. And I think that that's a necessary component. Now if we're trying to make these political delineations, it becomes tough. What's a Republican or a neocon versus a conservative versus this versus that? It comes down to foundationalism of framework. Like you were just saying in the framework of Christianity and Christian ethics. Huge delineation point between the right and the left. Who rejects that for harm? Principles, utilitarianism and various other sorts of frameworks.

[Jamie]

Yeah. And they'll also point to what Christianity has done throughout history and the amount of harm that it's caused. But it's kind of like every power structure throughout history you could point to in that way. Well, it was what was there. Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

The thing is, the Catholic Church gets a lot of shit for this. Well, look at all the horrible things that the Catholic Church did. It's like, well, the Catholic Church was the whole known world once. All of Europe was the Catholic Church. Like all of it was. You can't have organizations which span whole nations and countries, ethnicities, cultures, integrate themselves into it and not have corruption. I don't care what system it is. Pointing to it and saying it's because they were Catholic. That's where it becomes absurd. They were corrupt, there was corruption.

[Jamie]

Because they're human.

[Andrew Wilson]

Because they're human, not because they're Catholic.

[Jamie]

Right, right. One of the things that I always try to point out to people that go, why do you go to church? Because when I was younger, I was very cynical about religion. And then I've got older. One of the things that I always say is if there was a pill that could make you as nice as the people that I go to church with, everybody would be on it. They are the nicest fucking people you will ever encounter when we leave.

[Andrew Wilson]

Are they nice or are they kind?

[Jamie]

They're kind.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, they're kind.

[Jamie]

Kind and nice. They're all the above. They're like very friendly, happy people. But when you leave the church parking lot or even when you're entering, they're the they. Everybody lets everybody in. It's like no one rushes ahead. It's like you go ahead and then you go ahead. It's like the most self organized, most charitable way of exiting A parking lot I've ever experienced in my life. The opposite of a concert. You go to a great concert, everybody's like, fucking on everybody's bumper, trying to weasel in. People are honking, fuck you. In church, it's like one person goes, another person goes, no, you go, wave. And then everybody's fine and everybody's happy. It's like, if you could take a pill that could do that to you, if therapy could do that to you, we should all be on therapy. We should all take that pill.

[Andrew Wilson]

Philosophy can do that for you. Because the phenomenon that you're talking about is the me philosophy. And so you're going to church. It's not all about you. And that's why you have those types of interactions with people. Wait, I'm going. You go to a concert, that's for you, that's for me, not for these strangers. I'm going there because I want to be entertained. That's for me. You go to church, it's not for you. And the thing is, the kind of materialism view, the materialistic view of pure materialism, reduces always to me, me, me, me, because what else can there be? There's just me and the material I engage with. There's nothing outside of that. So why engage as though there's something outside of that that doesn't just lead to nihilism, but it's the beginning stages of understanding the distinction between religious foundationalism and basically everything else. The reduction doesn't come down to me. And that's why those interactions seem so much better, because they are. Because people are thinking about you. And it's like, what a concept. Imagine a world where people think about somebody besides themselves and they can think.

[Jamie]

About everybody as a part of a community and a collective community that you care about that has value to you. And they're, you know, there's.

[Andrew Wilson]

And then you go, why does the mental health rate so much better in these communities? It's like, well, isn't it interesting how much they think about other people than just themselves and duties to those people instead of just me, me, me, me, me.

[Jamie]

They're the kindest people you're ever going to come across. And I think there's a lot of value in that. And I think the people that are cynical about that because they don't want to believe in fairy tales or they don't want to be stupid. They don't want to get duped by, like, there's a foundation to that. If you just, look, forget about some of the stuff that's in the Bible that, you know, it gets weird when you get old. Like you go back to the old, old, old stuff because like, for sure, human beings had some sort of an influence on what was written down and what wasn't written down. But if you get just to the teachings of Christ, I can't find any faults in it. Like, it's all about being kind. It's all about this idea that we're all in this together and that you're supposed to lift each other up and look after each other. There's no faults in it. It's not like you have to kill the non believers. It's not like you get to rape and pillage for the non believers and the infidels must die. There's none of that.

[Andrew Wilson]

That's why Christians believe in objective truth, that it must be objective truth. Because otherwise why is most of the world following this as though it's objective truth? We seem to be leaning towards this, as though this must be the thing which is objectively real and objectively true and a thing which we can point to. That is because when people are introduced to it, like you just said, it's really hard and difficult to find fault in it. It's not just that, you know, it's interesting. If we reverse it, if we say, what could I do that actually would be the best for me? Me, me, me, me. It would still be that.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

Which is the funniest part of the whole thing. It's like both ways. It works for you, even if it's not all about you, or it works for you, even if it is all about you. It's still going to be the better message out of the two.

[Jamie]

It's definitely a better framework for living your life. And there's a lot of people that just reject that. Think of themselves as intelligent. They think of themselves as intelligent and well read and educated.

[Andrew Wilson]

Too smart for that.

[Jamie]

Yeah, I'm too smart for that.

[Andrew Wilson]

Too smart for all that.

[Jamie]

I'm an atheist. Any atheist needs to take 8 grams of mushrooms.

[Andrew Wilson]

Just do a little DMT.

[Jamie]

Do a little DMT and you're like, oh, I don't know anything. You think you know things. You don't know a fucking thing. You just know what you've experienced. And I think that these, the world is better off if people have a great moral and ethical framework. I think morals and ethics and being kind is one of the most important values that human beings can ever possess. If you want to live in a productive and healthy community, completely agree.

[Andrew Wilson]

And I think that kindness I make a delineation between kindness and niceness because I think it's often kind not to be nice, but I do think that you can be nice and it's. It may not be kind. Right, that's true. So I make a delineation between those things. I don't think that kindness though, has much variance. Kindness is looking after the interest of somebody who's not me and it makes everybody.

[Jamie]

It's actually selfish because it makes you feel good too.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. I mean, there is something.

[Jamie]

You can look at it that way.

[Andrew Wilson]

Sure. From the position of trying to convince the unbeliever. Right. Appealing to their self interest may not be the worst idea. Appealing to like, well, has the lack of community and the like. Let's just assume for a second. Let's just assume it's all bullshit and it's all nonsense. Every bit of it is just totally made up. We just made it up. Right. But we all acted as though it was true. If it's the case that your whole framework is that we just want a society that really works well and does the best it can possibly do for everyone, then shouldn't you, by your own framework, just pretend it's true?

[Jamie]

Right. Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

Shouldn't you just act as though it's true anyway?

[Jamie]

Because Jordan Peterson had a very good point about that, about believing in God, that if you believe, if you act as if God is real, you will have a better life. Like it works. It really does work.

[Andrew Wilson]

Almost like a universal truth.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it's very fascinating. It's fascinating that people that are self professed atheists and people that think of themselves as too intelligent for religion won't acknowledge that they don't want to believe that. And so many of them that I know that are self professed atheists are some of the most miserable people. They're very depressed. A lot of them are on psychiatric medications, a lot of them are in therapy. A lot of them are really fucked up.

[Andrew Wilson]

They're almost cursed. Almost seems like that, doesn't it?

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

And the thing, well, the thing that's interesting is like I've talked with a lot of atheists, debated with a lot of atheists, especially on the effects of Christianity and society against the effects of atheism. And I know what pure secular states have led to. That's what communism was. That was a purely secular state where you really wall off the church from the state. But here we pretend that it's secular and they get all the benefits of it being, quote, secular, but it's not secular at all. Politicians are constantly voted in based on the fact that they have an X amount of value structure. And that's what they're going to implement legislatively on you. The whole secular thing totally made up, and them pretending that that's even real or has ever existed as a real framework in the United States. Just nonsense.

[Jamie]

Not only that, but I think there is a natural default in the human mind to be attracted to a structure. And if that structure is a Christian structure, you're attracted to all the Christian values that we've just discussed being so positive and beneficial to you. But if you're not, and you go to a leftist, progressive structure, leftists in particular, like a Marxist structure, what, you know, what you're seeing is a complete lack of forgiveness. They don't have that built into the system. You know, one of the, one of the beautiful things about Christianity is forgiveness and the recognition that we're all sinners and we all fuck up and we're all human and we're all flawed and that you could, could, you could move on and be better and you can atone for these sins and you could recognize that, you know, yes, you've made a mistake, but here's the best way to move forward and be a better person. Society at whole, recognizes that you are me and I am you. And we're all kind of the same thing. We all up and we're all, we're all just human beings. But there's a pathway. There's a pathway to forgiveness. There's zero pathway. Oh, no, nothing in, in leftism. That's the most horrible thing. When you watch these pylons online over, like, the most innocuous discretions.

[Andrew Wilson]

What's funny with leftists is their pathway is just everything's permitted. And the pathway from the Christian is, no, not everything is permitted, but almost everything can be forgiven. And that I would see as the big distinction. There's a story that I heard because I'm Eastern Orthodox, that is what I follow. It was a great story my priest told me. So basically how this went is there was monks, they lived in a commune, and one monk liked to get drunk. That was his big vice. He drank a lot of beer. And he did this clear up until the day that he died. When he died, everyone was crying. And a monk said, well, why is everyone crying? He held that vice clear up till the day he died. And the head of the abbot who was there, he said, yeah, but the last few years, he cut it in half.

[Jamie]

He was on the path.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, he's just saying I'm going to recognize all the progress that this man who had this horrible vice did, right? There was still progress. He was still trying to move towards the virtue. Now maybe he never got to it, but I'm still going to recognize that he was trying to. And maybe he was not able to surmount it. He was not able to get past his demons, maybe he wasn't able to overtake them all, but he was at least attempting to.

[Jamie]

Right? That's the thing.

[Andrew Wilson]

That's the thing.

[Jamie]

Well, it's this idea of someone being a perfect person. It's nonsense. It doesn't exist. And so if you don't have a pathway to forgiveness and if you don't have that built into your society, you're always going to have people pointing out the people that are the bad people and it's going to keep moving in that direction. And it's one of the things you see in the left in particular, they eat their own. And it drives me crazy when I see that also from the right. I'm like, you don't you see that the people that you criticize are doing this? And now you're doing this. You guys are turning on each other over the most innocuous things and forming tribes where you're attacking each other even though you have mostly shared values instead of being charitable and recognizing that, you know, these are just human beings and they make mistakes. Yeah, but the left eats itself more than any fucking group that I've ever encountered over almost nothing. And they love to pile on because they're absolutely terrified that it's going to come for them. They're fucking terrified. And so they will go out of their way to shame and attack and to take some of the energy away from them.

[Andrew Wilson]

But do you think there's a unity in that? Like if we were to look at this again, like from a bird's eye view, I agree with you. The left eats itself way more than the right does, though. The right eats itself too. Right? And we've been seeing a lot of that post Charlie Kirk's death, though, I think that that was mostly power vacuum based. And who gets to fill the power vacuum?

[Jamie]

That's what I think too.

[Andrew Wilson]

I still think that it's. It turned into a dog eat dog for the power vacuum fight. And it was a criticism of values, foundationalism and all of that. But from the left view, if you eat, if you're eating your own right, and you eat the message apart to the point where you get down to the foundation and now everybody's in lock and step. Is that better for political power or worse? Like if you constantly are just eating the wrong. Nope, that message isn't pure enough and they gobble them up until you get the monster right. Who has the right message? They're all on board. Is that the better way to achieve this kind of political paradigm that they want? That's my question.

[Jamie]

It's very naive. It's a naive perspective that eventually you're gonna boil it down to purity and you're not going to. It's not gonna happen. You're never gonna get far left enough.

[Andrew Wilson]

There'll always be something else to eat them over.

[Jamie]

Yeah, well, also you're advocating for communism and advocating for communism is so wild. And people, there's no examples of it ever being done right. It's. There's zero. Imagine advocating for something that has zero success. Zero. None. Like you can. It doesn't exist. It does. It's never happened. There's never been. Why? Well, I'll tell you why. Because if everybody has to share all the money, then who's going to enforce that? Who's going to do. Who's going to tell people that you have to give up your house? The state?

[Andrew Wilson]

The state.

[Jamie]

The state has guns.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Yeah. So you're advocating for violence.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Well, you don't think you're advocating for violence, but you are. You're advocating for hard men with, with.

[Andrew Wilson]

Guns to enforce your will.

[Jamie]

And those people are going to wind up living in mansions and eating filet mignon and everybody else is going to be eating oats and gruel.

[Andrew Wilson]

And that's which is exactly what's always happened when it's tried. And the thing is interesting too is there's other. There's other value set issues that are really simple to point to. Like, like, okay, nothing's worth anything. Like how do I get my guitar right?

[Jamie]

It's nonsense.

[Andrew Wilson]

Like just, you know, all the communist nations were always setting their market prices based on what capitalist markets would set for prices. And it's like, how do I value a guitar if it's supposed to just be mine in the commune and then yours also. And his also. How do we set a value assessment here? What makes the epiphone better than the another?

[Jamie]

Sorry folks, we had a crash software crash. Another problem is this idea of the equality of outcome, that everybody should get an equal amount. That is crazy talk because we all know that equality of effort does not exist. There's a reason why there's outliers and the reason why they're so compelling and so inspirational is like this fucking guy got up at 5 o' clock in the morning and ran every morning before work and hustled and, and, and ate the right food and, and did the right things and was thinking and pushing and was open minded and, and he became radically successful.

[Andrew Wilson]

But from each according to their ability. Joe.

[Jamie]

But no, it's, it's not even maximizing everyone's ability because you're basically giving a safety net for lazy people. And that's not good for them either. No, no. Being inspired by others. Success is a good thing. It's a good thing. And the only way that happens is if you let someone be exceptional. And the only way you let something be exceptional, you have to incentivize them. What's the incentive? The incentive is they get more value out of their hard work. They get more money, they get a nicer house, they get like, what are you gonna do? You're gonna decide that people have to like mate like that women don't find this guy attractive. But that's not fair. So they have to be with this guy and they have to find him attractive or that, you know, a woman has to find this man attractive.

[Andrew Wilson]

Sure.

[Jamie]

Even though he's, he's a, a dumpy, lazy loser. This is the way of the world.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And competition is a good thing for human beings. It inspires us. It's good, it lets you know that there's a higher bar that can be achieved.

[Andrew Wilson]

And you often used to know who the lazy people were based on the living conditions they had.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

Isn't that interesting? Just like you would often know if there was an ugly kid that their parents probably were pretty ugly. Right. But it's true, right? Yes, it is true. The idea here is like people tend to bat in dating in their league. At least men do, or try to. Right. Women above their league. But the thing is, the reason you commonly see good looking people with good looking people and ugly people with ugly people is because that's about what you can get. But it's the same thing when it comes to ability and skill in whatever it is that you're doing. Right. Hey, thing is, oftentimes if you ask a person, my dad used to say this all the time. He was right. If you ask a person, are you where you're at based on things that happen to you or because of you? He said 98% of people will say because of things that happened to me. And then when you ask them about what those things are, you'll find out that it's because of them, you'll find out it's because of choices they've made, things that they've done, that's actually what's responsible for the conditions that they're in.

[Jamie]

Oh, and by the way, for people, that's not the case. Like, trust fund kids are the most miserable motherfuckers I have ever met in my life.

[Andrew Wilson]

And they lose it all anyway.

[Jamie]

A lot of them do, but a lot of them are not fully formed human beings. And the way I always describe it, I go. It's like if you give. If you make cement and you don't add all the stuff in the right way, you can't fix it later. Right, Right. So during the developmental process, if you're fucking Joffrey from Game of Thrones, like, what are the odds that Joffrey's gonna fucking figure it out and get his shit together and be cool when he gets old?

[Andrew Wilson]

You're just Dexter and that's it.

[Jamie]

Exactly right.

[Andrew Wilson]

You just, like. You have the informed experience of the serial killing, and it's like, there's just no fixing you.

[Jamie]

There's no fixing.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, there's no fixing it. I get that. I just. The thing that's interesting is, like, when I look at the communist paradigm versus the capital, you know, that's coming back. That paradigm's coming back. And for a while, it was kind of shoved off as, like, that's Boomer shit, you know? But the Cold War's over, grandpa. Right? Cold War's over, grandpa. There's no communist versus capitalist versus. That's all. It's like, not. It's not. It's not done.

[Jamie]

No, not at all done. It's a story as old as time, and it keeps fucking repeating itself. And it's just weird that people look. But also, I believe in social safety nets because I think that there's a lot of people that are very unfortunate, and there's a lot of people that do grow up with shitty parents or parents that have a bad situation in life. Maybe the father dies or the mother dies. And there's no. Like, it's good to be charitable. And churches are fantastic at that. It's one of the. The more pure charities that you're ever going to find, because their goal is really just to help those people. Unlike what. What you think of as charities in the modern sense. One of the grossest things today is these enormous charities that everybody thinks, oh, I'm going to support this charity. It's doing so much good.

[Andrew Wilson]

90% to the CEO.

[Jamie]

Yeah, dude, I was watching this thing, it was either. I think it was Live Aid. You know, one of those. One of those concert things was Bono. What was he involved in? Was it Live Aid?

[Andrew Wilson]

I don't remember, but Bono, Bono. I remember his speech where he was like, capitalism's done more to take people out of poverty than anything else. I thought that was funny.

[Jamie]

It is funny.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. But I don't remember which one he was involved in directly, but I know what you're referencing.

[Jamie]

Well, Mike Benz did this video today where he was explaining how an enormous percentage of that money went to regime change. Like it went to prop up. Went to prop up CIA operations. Like the fucking money that people donated so generously to the LA fires. Did you ever see where all that went? Where it went to like a hundred different nonprofits. Like, some of it was like pro immigration. That there was. It was like. We. We talked about it the other day. We had a whole list of all the different things that have been documented. That money. Oh, yeah, that's all. So very little money is ever going to go to the actual people that lost their house. Almost all the money is going to go to these nonprofits. All these nonprofits have overhead. It goes to their employees. It goes to the overhead costs. All these people got bonuses.

[Andrew Wilson]

But isn't that the same with the state?

[Jamie]

Billion dollars went to bonuses.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, but that's the same with the state.

[Jamie]

But how crazy is that? You get a bonus for running a fucking charity. That's crazy.

[Andrew Wilson]

Huge bonuses.

[Jamie]

Huge bonuses.

[Andrew Wilson]

Like hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions in bonuses.

[Jamie]

And that's the homeless situation. This is the other thing about the homeless situation in California. Oh, we're going to help the homeless. It's really important to donate to the homeless. Let's help the homeless. California spent $24 billion on the homeless problem. It got worse. Not only did it get worse, they can't account for the money. And when the politicians have unanimously voted to try to do an audit to see where the money goes, Gavin Newsom has vetoed it. It's wild.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, isn't it counterintuitive? Anyway, if you're in an area and you say, look, we're gonna be really good to the homeless here, we're going to give them a lot of money, a lot of entitlements. We're gonna really help them get on their feet. If you were homeless in a neighboring state, where would you go?

[Jamie]

Yeah, you'd move to the place with awesome weather. Yeah, they'll give you money.

[Andrew Wilson]

Where they're gonna give you money and so, you know, and they do. They do just that. And so that's why these budgets become very bloated. Right. People are like, wait a second, there used to be three homeless guys over there. Now there's a tent city. What the hell is going on?

[Jamie]

And they all get free crack.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. Or free needles in their needle exchange or whatever it is. And it's. It gets worse and worse. The state does the same thing. State is allocating tons and tons of. Of cash that it gets in Social Security tax. It's not going to Social Security. It's like these entitlements and entitlement spending.

[Jamie]

Well, when people found out that Social Security is going to illegal immigrants.

[Andrew Wilson]

Oh, yeah.

[Jamie]

An enormous amount of it. They're like, wait, wait, what? And they denied it. They denied it. And then, you know, they had to fess up to it. And whistleblowers and, well, why would you.

[Andrew Wilson]

Have a PAYO system? Why would you have a system where you're like, this is social safety net that you're paying into for your retirement that you have to pay into. Why wouldn't that go in a lockbox? Why would you have a bit. Well, because we want access to that money right now. And we'll pay it out later. That's what we'll do. We'll pay it out later. It's like, what? Why wouldn't you. Why wouldn't you have.

[Jamie]

It sounds like misappropriation.

[Andrew Wilson]

Of course. It's wild that they're allowed to access the Social Security funds that are for your retirement. And then they're like, well, we're going to defund Social Security, so we'll shut the whole government down. Right. Because then you won't get your Social Security checks. We'll weaponize the entitlement. That should just be in a lockbox. Yeah, you know, it's. Well, we'll pass funding for it. Funding for the thing they already paid.

[Jamie]

Well, the idea also is that you are supposed to be paying into it so that you will get money when you retire, but your return on investment is so bad. That's terrible compared to what would happen if you spent that exact same money and put it in, like, a fund, a reliable fund. You get so much more money when you retire, like an enormous success.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, now I almost feel like it's hamstringing, because if it was the case that they let you keep, you could just opt out. You know, I don't want Social Security. I want to keep it. And then you took that and you put it in those hedge Funds and retirement accounts and things like this. You would way maximize over what you get in Social Security, but you can't opt out even though it's for you.

[Jamie]

There's nothing the government does good. Not a thing. Not a single thing. So why would they be good at that and why would anybody support that? They're just not good at it. Especially when it comes to money. There's always a bunch of shenanigans that take place, you know, and the idea that they would say, oh, Social Security is sacred. This, this we're going to really treat. We're going to maximize your. The amount of investment and really take care of people. We really care about people.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, we care about them tons.

[Jamie]

So naive. It's so naive. And so obviously an ineffective and possibly corrupt system.

[Andrew Wilson]

Why hasn't it become a weapon? Entitlements are a weapon. They're a political weapon.

[Jamie]

Wow. It certainly helps. Yeah. And also, again, the suicidal empathy that Gad Saad talks about, if you're on the left, you think of it as being like you're an empathetic person, a kind person. You want people to have money when they retire, you want people to have Medicaid and you want people to have welfare and you want people to have snapshots.

[Andrew Wilson]

Who was a guy you brought up? I'm trying to think of his name. It was like maybe Professor Raft, something like that. They brought up the Papua New guinea thing. Do you remember the Papua New guinea thing?

[Jamie]

Yes, I do.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. So on that little island, right, they have the Seminole people. And the Seminole people, basically, they molest young boys. That's what they do. Right. But apparently the young boys there, they love it because it's a rite of manhood. Right. And it's all socially conditioned in the thing is, with suicidal empathy, that's really funny here to point out to a leftist from their paradigm, there's nothing wrong with that, actually. Where's the harm? Right? That's part of the suicidal empathy, part of the ideology of suicidal empathy. For me, from my worldview, it's like, I don't care if you don't think there's harm in that. There is. We're stopping it. Emperor Andrew. Done. That's done. No more. That's not allowed. I don't care if it's relativistic or not, it's over. Right?

[Jamie]

Yeah. I mean, it's crazy to try to defend that culture. That culture is so wild. The semen warriors of Papua New Guinea.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. The seamen warriors of Papua New Guinea.

[Jamie]

For people who don't know. And instead of just talking about this, let's read this from an actual source so we can explain. Because they call the children when I think they're six, the boys have to live with a man that they refer to as the anal father. And this guy, in order for them to grow strong, they have to consume semen both orally and anally. And so they get mouth fucked and ass fucked by this guy. And then they continue that when they.

[Andrew Wilson]

Grow up as part of their warrior culture. And what stopped it? You know, what ended up finally stopping? A lot of that.

[Jamie]

It's not going on anymore.

[Andrew Wilson]

It still is. But a lot of it was stopped depending on the tribe you were in. Because of Christian missionaries.

[Jamie]

Interesting.

[Andrew Wilson]

Because of Christian missionaries. But here's the thing that cracks me up, right? In this whole culturally relativistic nonsense, harm principles stuff, you're Christopher Columbus and you show up. And if culture's doing that, don't you put them to the sword?

[Jamie]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

Like, if you see the pyramids and they're cutting people's hearts out, like holding it up to this to raw or whatever, you're like, I'm supposed to feel bad that they put you to the store? Like, it's really hard for me to feel bad about that.

[Jamie]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

You know, it's really hard for me to be upset about that. But with the Seminole people, same thing. It's like, if you went in there and you just use strong armed force, this is why the libertarian nap and stuff like that I disagree with. Because, like, if he went in there and used strong armed force and just stopped it immediately, so what? So what? How's the world a worse place for this? How is, you know, like. And how is that not ultimately stopping an egregious, sinful act that you can stop with ease.

[Jamie]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

Like, why not? Why not do that?

[Jamie]

Well, one of the things I got really into Aztecs recently and because I did, I wasn't aware that a lot of those temples that they found, you would think that the people that build those incredible pyramids and temples.

[Andrew Wilson]

No, they found them, didn't they?

[Jamie]

Yeah, you would think. They have to be an incredibly sophisticated society. Well, it turns out they didn't really build them, they found them.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And they referred to them as the place where the gods were born. I didn't know that. I. I was always told that they built these incredible structures and then the Spaniards came and they found them. And. No, when.

[Andrew Wilson]

No, they were primitives who found. Who found something that was extremely advanced and then used it for their primitive application.

[Jamie]

Not just primitive, but barbaric. When they completed the consecration of the temple of Tenochtitlan, they killed somewhere between 20,000 on the low end and 80,000 on the high end. They sacrificed 20,000 to 80,000 people within four days. In four days. And this was documented by God. I forget his name, something. Diaz. He was a Spanish chronicler. Because this is before Cortez came, they started trying to figure out what's going on over there. And one of the things that this guy came back, he said, this place is crazy. They killed 80,000 people. And a lot of people have disputed that. 80,000 people. But then they found so many bones that they're like, okay, it's probably somewhere north of 20,000, which is crazy enough. They sacrificed him in four days.

[Andrew Wilson]

Morality is relative, right? Yeah, of course.

[Jamie]

It was 4,000, maybe. What's that, Jim? As many as 4,000 was as max as they got to. What do you mean, Bones? Yeah, the people that. If. Even if they did 20,000. I think the number I think I saw was four people. Or it was like four people every minute you would have had to do. Or is. It was something that almost impossible to accomplish.

[Andrew Wilson]

They just said the numbers probably exaggerated a lot.

[Jamie]

Right. But they said that the. No, I think if you. Are you sure? I looked at something brought up. But I looked it up, too. I looked it up yesterday, actually. I looked it up yesterday, and they were saying that. That this guy. Who was the guy that. Okay, we can. I can. I know I have it saved, so I can find it in here. So this guy, this Diaz guy.

[Andrew Wilson]

Who'S chronicling.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Who chronicled it in the.

[Andrew Wilson]

How long before Cortez was this.

[Jamie]

Really, really soon.

[Andrew Wilson]

Okay.

[Jamie]

Like, within a couple of decades before Cortez. Yeah. Oh, God. I'm trying to find it, but it. This does say maybe. I don't know, just the perplexity of things. That Spanish sources claimed 80,400 victims in 1487. Right. But modern estimates suggest 4,000 to maybe 20,000. Right. So 20. Okay. They don't really know. So 20, 80,000 might be exaggerated if you think about the number. But just think about 20,000 people killing 20,000 people by cutting their hearts out and throwing them down the steps of the pyramid in four days is fucking crazy. So if you're the Spanish, the Spaniards, and you come here, you don't feel bad about conquering those fuckers, you're like, what are you guys doing? Or how about when they showed up and they found the Mayans and they're playing football with human heads. Now, here's a funny one. They don't want to believe that they played football with human heads. So historians try to say that they didn't play football with human heads, even though there's artistic depictions of them playing football with human heads. Like, no, that was just symbolic. Well, did they sacrifice humans? Yes, they did. But they played football with their heads. That would be rude.

[Andrew Wilson]

It's that whole myth of the noble savage.

[Jamie]

Exactly.

[Andrew Wilson]

And that whole myth of the noble savage is something which is utilized by the left in order to make the claim that you are an imperialist and an occupier and a person who. Yeah. You have colonized their land. And the thing is, is it's like, if that's what we colonized, why do I care? I ask this question all the time. Why do I care if that's what I colonized, if that's what my ancestors colonized? Why should I give a shit about that?

[Jamie]

Well, there's an amazing book about Texas called Empire of the Summer Moon. It's all about the Comanche. This entire land used to be before Mexico owned it. By the way, one of the funny things this lady said to me, you know, this all used to be Mexico. I'm like, right. But do you know how. For how long? 15 years. Like, I've been here for six. Like, you got to let that go. That's not that long. 15 years. And by the way, Mexico was only.

[Andrew Wilson]

And we had an Alamo over it. Okay.

[Jamie]

Yeah. And by the way, Mexico was only one when it owned Texas.

[Andrew Wilson]

Mexico started with its new constitution.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Because then also, you have the language and the religion of your oppressors that you're trying to say is this noble and incredible culture.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

You're bringing over to America.

[Andrew Wilson]

And you're all Catholic, and.

[Jamie]

Yeah, you're all Catholic. You all speak Spanish. They used to have, first of all, the people, the Native American people and the original people in the Aztecs, the Mayans, the Mexicans. It's essentially the same kind of people. A lot of them are. They look the same. It's like if you look at Sitting.

[Andrew Wilson]

Bowl, my wife calls him.

[Jamie]

Looks like he could be working at a taqueria.

[Andrew Wilson]

My wife calls him the pygmy people.

[Jamie]

Oh, they're tiny little people.

[Andrew Wilson]

They have flat noses, and they like. Yeah, they look like pygmy people.

[Jamie]

Well, the. The. The original people of Mexico had. Or what. The land of Mexico had over a hundred languages. The Mayans alone had 30 different languages. They're all lost. Like these languages are all lost. And we're supposed to think it's noble that this amazing culture that have the language of. And the religion of their oppressors and they want to move here with this language. They're colonizing. They're trying to colonize a place. You've been colonized. You're trying to colonize. And here's the thing about colonizing. Everybody, Everybody that doesn't live in Africa, somewhere in their ancestry there was a colonizer. Like if you go to Minnesota and you see these Somali communities and everyone's speaking Somali, they have Somali businesses. What do you think that is? It's a colony, of course. It's just not a big one. It just hasn't taken over the entire country. And when it does, you'll think it's great because they're not white.

[Andrew Wilson]

Right? Well, they're not colonizers. They're not.

[Jamie]

They're immigrants.

[Andrew Wilson]

They're immigrants. Yeah, right.

[Jamie]

White people are colonizers.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. White people are the colonizers. Everyone else is the immigrant.

[Jamie]

Nobody feels bad for Swedish chicks with big tits that are moving to America. You don't think that those are colonists?

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, don't care. Yeah, don't care. It's only the colonization. Oh, man. Well, the thing is funny, moving back to the myth of the noble savage thing, how weaponized that is when so much of it isn't true. Like, for instance, you've heard of the two spirits?

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

Right. That's all bullshit too. The whole two spirit people, all bullshit came from like one guy I don't remember, started with a B. Right. Who like Bardetche or something like this that they called them. Right. And it was one tribe of people who had some like weird thing that they did. That was it.

[Jamie]

Well, it was probably gay guys. Yeah, that was the gay guys that like dressing up like women.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. That's where the whole two spirit thing came. And then suddenly it's like, no, the Native Americans had the two spirit. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That is not the case at all. You just made it up because then you could throw it in with your skittles Bullshit.

[Jamie]

Right?

[Andrew Wilson]

So that's the. Yeah, throw it in with the skittles.

[Jamie]

The rainbow. Yeah. Well, the thing about this area here, before Mexico owned it was Comancheria. It was owned by the Comanche. But you know how they owned it because they killed the Apache. That's. That's how nicers. Yeah, well, they were brutal. That's why this empire The Summer Moon book is so good because it just shows you how unbelievably barbaric the Comanche were. They were the baddest motherfuckers around because they had figured out horse raising. And by the way, they only got those from parish.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, from Europeans.

[Jamie]

Right? Yeah. Which is crazy because horses actually originated from North America.

[Andrew Wilson]

I thought they were in Europe and brought here from Europe.

[Jamie]

No, horses originated in North America and then made their way to Asia and then were wiped out in North America and then reintroduced Spanish.

[Andrew Wilson]

But the. But the natives didn't have access to them until Europeans brought you. Okay, that's what I thought.

[Jamie]

Their culture was so incredibly wild. If you think about it like you, you know, you're talking about. Well, you think about Europe and Asia, you've got people riding horses and building cities and you've got like agriculture, all these things. And in North America you basically have Stone Age people. It's really kind of crazy, really kind of fascinating. And then they get horses. And the Comanches were the first ones that really figure out horse breeding. They figured out how, you know, how to castrate their horses.

[Andrew Wilson]

And they became Mongols.

[Jamie]

Yeah, they basically became Mongols.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yes, they became Mongols once they had access to horses. Yeah, well, that was what, that was the whole distinction anyway, if you reduce it all between the two civilizations. Europeans had domesticated animals, natives didn't.

[Jamie]

Right.

[Andrew Wilson]

And because we had domesticatable animals, we had labor, we built these amazing societies. And they didn't like. The difference that a work ox and a workhorse can make in labor is astronomical. And so that's the real difference. Same thing with disease. Like, ah, the whites brought over all their diseases. Like, well, all those came from animals. Smallpox, all that got immunity because we of animal husbandry, they didn't have any immunity to any of that.

[Jamie]

Not only that, there's real evidence that syphilis came from Native Americans. And then they brought that at least some forms of syphilis, and they brought that syphilis back to Europe. And then all the Europeans started going crazy and getting holes in their head and losing all their hair. That's where the big wigs came from.

[Andrew Wilson]

And then eating mercury pills to cure themselves.

[Jamie]

Crazy what people used to believe. Yeah, it's really kind of fascinating. But the point is, even the people that lived in America before those settlers came, those people came from somewhere else. They came from Siberia. You know, everyone's a colonizer. Everyone all over the world, people, you start in Africa, million years ago or whatever it is, and then people start slowly moving away from the people that were kicking their ass looking for a better place to live.

[Andrew Wilson]

But isn't the whole thing from the leftist paradigm just to create or to delegitimize the fact that you can say, what do you mean? My grandpa was born here. His grandpa was born here.

[Jamie]

He was a colonizer.

[Andrew Wilson]

I'm an American and I have a right to my nation because by birth, I have a birthright to the land that I'm on and so do my fellow countrymen. Nope. It's an attempt to delegitimize that right. That's the whole point. Just to delegitimize your claim to your own land.

[Jamie]

Well, that's what we were talking about earlier with leftists, where there's this purity test that no one can ever pass because they'll always keep pushing the boundaries further and further. You're never going to be. There's no, like, real Americans. Everyone who's white is a colonizer. Yeah, yeah. It's just. It's fucking goofy. And it's just designed to point at someone. That someone is the bad person. And this is the reason why life sucks. And also dismiss any of the terrible activities that any of the other people participate in because, like, oh, they're just oppressed. They're oppressed people. So they're lashing out.

[Andrew Wilson]

Do you think, like, if you had, if you. Again, the bird's eye view, what do you think the left, what do you think their end goal is here?

[Jamie]

I don't think they know. I don't think their end goal. Their end goal is their enemy is the right, and the right is Nazis and fascists. They want to eliminate the Nazis and they want to roll initiatives.

[Andrew Wilson]

Initiative. Right. 2D6 damage. It's happening.

[Jamie]

And they think that once they get into power, everything will be fine. It's not going to. And not only that, what would be fascinating is if someone from the left started behaving exactly like the people that are on the right. Just did it from a perspective of the left where you would think, oh, this is okay. And that's what we got during the Obama administration. I sent you this thing, Jamie, a little bit ago, the clip of Obama talking about immigration. And by the way, Obama. And I was mistaken on this. I thought that a lot of the people that Obama deported were people that were turned away at the border. That was a third. Most of the people out of the. I think it was 3 million over the course of his presidency that were deported, were fucking deported. Like arrested, deported. A lot of people were killed. Let's put on the headphones so we can listen to the speech because this sounds very maga. Listen to this.

[Andrew Wilson]

There are those in the immigrants rights community who have argued passionately that we should simply provide those who are illegally with legal status or. Or at least ignore the laws on the books and put an end to deportation until we have better laws. And often this argument is framed in moral terms. Why should we punish people who are just trying to earn a living? I recognize the sense of compassion that drives this argument, but I believe such an indiscriminate approach would be both unwise and. And unfair. It would suggest to those thinking about coming here illegally that there will be no repercussions for such a decision. And this could lead to a surge in more illegal immigration. And it would also ignore the millions of people around the world who are waiting in line to come here legally. Ultimately, our nation, like all nations, has the right and obligation to control its borders and set laws for residency and citizenship. And no matter how decent they are, no matter their reasons, the 11 million who broke these laws should be held accountable.

[Jamie]

That sounds so Republican. In 2010, that was a Democrat saying that. And everybody was like, well, okay, that's reasonable. Yeah, Tom Holman, who is the head now, was the guy then, and he gave him a fucking medal. Find the clip of Hillary when she's running in 2012, where Hillary is more MAGA than Trump. The way she frames things is so hardcore right wing. She sounds to the right of Marjorie Taylor Greene. If you've never seen this, have you seen this one?

[Andrew Wilson]

I think so, but I'm gonna look again.

[Jamie]

Wonderful. It's wonderful because it just shows you how much horseshoe. By the way, how good was he? He was such a good spokesperson. Like, the way he talked was so. It was so measured and so noble in the way he phrased his sentences. Like, it was really. It's really interesting how much perception plays a factor in what you think of as, like, someone being a good president because everybody on the left thinks of him as being like the most amazing president ever.

[Andrew Wilson]

Oh, yeah.

[Jamie]

Now this isn't the one.

[Andrew Wilson]

And he wasn't.

[Jamie]

It keeps coming up, though, what I'm looking for. But this isn't the one. The one is she's giving a speech. So I thought I was looking for, but I didn't even type in what I was looking for. I just typed in 2012. And that's the thing that keeps. Maybe it's not 2012. It might have been 2008. Don't, don't do Hillary is more MAGA than Trump. See if you can find it. I know it's on YouTube, but it's this amazing campaign speech. You got it. Is it 2008? Yeah, that's it. That's it. Here it is. Listen to this. I love this one. I think we got to have tough.

[Andrew Wilson]

Conditions, tell people to come out of the shadows. If they've committed a crime, deport them, no questions asked, they're gone. If they.

[Jamie]

Cheers. Cheers from the Democrats.

[Andrew Wilson]

If they've been working and are law abiding, we should say, here are the.

[Jamie]

Conditions for you staying.

[Andrew Wilson]

You have to pay a stiff fine because you came here illegally. You have to pay back taxes and you have to try to learn English and you have to wait in line.

[Jamie]

You're going to learn English. Everybody's.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, they love it. They love it. And now Trump's a Nazi. Yeah, Trump's a Nazi.

[Jamie]

That is more right wing than Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, the Democrats were. I mean, there used to be labor unions that would put pressure on them. Right. This was a big thing. Like there was labor unions. That was what the Democrats had.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Andrew Wilson]

And the labor unions did not want the cheap labor to come in and displace them from having their nice little high wage jobs. And so it was all about, we gotta deport the illegals. Like, what did Bernie Sanders say? Mass illegal immigration is a right wing Koch brothers conspiracy to bring in cheap labor. And he wasn't wrong. He wasn't wrong.

[Jamie]

He wasn't wrong.

[Andrew Wilson]

But the thing is, it's like, what the hell are we fighting over here? Well, we're fighting over the fact that, that the, the left is just trying to ingratiate itself with power. And they don't really care about what the moral paradigm is. As long as they can get their people in power. They'll use anything as a lichpin issue.

[Jamie]

That's right. That's right. It's all about power. The whole thing is about power. And that's what people need to truly understand. You're being played. You're being played. You're being played in Minneapolis. You're being played all around the country. It's, it's about power. It's about them getting power. And if you think that once they get complete, if they did, they were successful, they imported millions more. All these swing states, they allow them to vote. They completely rigged the system. Now it's only. You think that's gonna be good for everybody? You're out of your fucking mind.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, let me ask you this. Do you Think then that Christians, knowing this, they know that these are bids for power. When you have Christian nationalism on the rise and Christians moving towards that, doesn't that seem like it's a rational and reasonable thing to do? For them to want the mindset of, if we're not in power, they will be in power.

[Jamie]

It's rational from their perspective, for sure. What people are terrified of is that it would restrict the freedom of religion and that you would impose Christianity on the entire country. And I don't think you should impose any kind of religion on any people. I think people should be free.

[Andrew Wilson]

I've never seen the. I know that there are, of course, the people who push that there has to be an established theocracy in order for Christian nationalism to work. But the frameworks that I've seen that have political legitimacy don't seem to push for that at all. They push instead that the idea is that Christians should not be hamstrung from the ideals of holding power itself, that that does not make you bad or evil or awful, no matter what the left says or how Christians are supposed to act. And that when you are in power, you should rule with Christian ethics in mind. That's how you're supposed to pass policy. Public policy of all kinds is through those ethical means. That certainly sounds like not, hey, it's going to be a theocracy. That doesn't seem like it's a necessary component.

[Jamie]

No. Well, people are afraid of the concept of a theocracy. And I think that people are afraid of just human nature, and that if people did get into power, that that's what it would become. Just like these people are just trying to get into power, that they would use Christianity as a vehicle and they would just use that as an ability to control people. The real concern is just human nature. Human beings, when they get into any position of power, like to keep it and expand it. It's like that's what they do. You know, I tell jokes, I talk shit. That's what I do. I like to talk shit. I like to tell more jokes.

[Andrew Wilson]

But there have been good kings, right?

[Jamie]

There have been, but, boy, good luck. Good luck finding a benevolent dictator.

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, not anymore. I don't think you would have to utilize a dictatorship. But if it's the case that we can point to, there were people who had a lot of power who fundamentally were pretty good. What was it that they're pointing to that made them good? Is there something we can point society towards that can make our leaders a bit better, that can make our Leadership, not hyper focus on the nonsense of gay marriage and stuff like that, which is completely and totally unimportant at the political level and shouldn't be up to the federal government anyway.

[Jamie]

Yeah, and I think it's a political tool too. You know, Anna Paulina Luna was on the podcast and she said something that I really didn't consider about certain political problems that exist in this country that they don't want to solve them because they want to use them to finance their campaigns. They want to run on those principles. They want to run on those things.

[Andrew Wilson]

It needs to always be there.

[Jamie]

It needs to always be there.

[Andrew Wilson]

It needs to always be there as an issue. And it's like, I think a lot of these can be solved. Like if we were to have politicians in Mass and their supporters in Mass who followed Christian ethics, I do think a lot of those sub issues get.

[Jamie]

Solved very quickly if it's true Christianity, if they really do follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. But I think what people are really worried about is when people think about Christians, they think about the worst case scenario of Christianity, which is like evangelicals on television, they just try to get private jets.

[Andrew Wilson]

But how is electing atheists better or electing socialists better or electing any of these people better? It can't be better, right?

[Jamie]

It's not better. Like if someone's a complete sociopath that doesn't have any moral framework, like a Gavin Newsom type guy, that's even more terrifying.

[Andrew Wilson]

So it's like, if I'm going to be ruled, can I at least be ruled by people who have my ethics.

[Jamie]

Or really who really believe in that they're trying to make the world a better place and they're not just trying to acquire wealth and help their donors acquire more wealth. It's spooky. It's spooky because people that have power, it scares the shit out of everybody else. And it should, because historically it's never been good. It's almost always when people have power, they want more power and they want to also support the people that help them acquire that power. And then they want to make sure they got that power locked down. So what's the best way to do that? Well, you restrict people's ability to express themselves, restrict people's ability to travel. You take away as much money as possible, tax them as highly as possible. So they're always in this like state of constantly struggling to pay their bills. You keep them, no one's comfortable ever. And then, you know, have this problem that we have to solve this is why you have a problem. It's these people.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah. And we're the solution. The causers. Yeah, the causers are the solution.

[Jamie]

Do you. You know, one of the things that I. You. You engage in so many fucking debates, man. I've watched. I've consumed a lot of your content online, and I always wonder, like, what does that wear on you after a while?

[Andrew Wilson]

Constantly. Oh, yeah. All the time. All the time. Well, the thing is, is it. So I argue from a worldview. My worldview is Christian ethics, and this is a foundation from which all other arguments are starting and ending. Now I'm happy to meet people in the middle. A lot of people want to argue in the middle. Right. We're going to get past all the foundational stuff and we're going to go to the menu or the middle of the argument and start there. And I'm kind of happy to do that, to kind of move everything backwards or forwards. So we can either get to the end or we can get to the beginning and get this figured out. Yes. What wears on me the most about it is there's a lot of people who I debate with, who I know don't believe what they're saying. I know. I know for sure. And there's moments where I catch myself, where I recognize it right then that moment in the debate, and then I'll hammer them. But it happens all the time where I'm like, you don't believe that shit. There's no way. And then they'll come back with a. You know, with a, I do. And you could just tell it's disingenuous. Right. I can't logically show it. There's no way for me to logically show necessarily your motivation. Maybe in extreme context. But, yeah, man, there's people who are pretty disingenuous about their view, and there's times where it comes out and the whole audience can see it and you can see it, and you're just like, just why? Just why are you. Like, you don't even believe the shit yourself, and you're propagating it on other people and, you know, people follow it. You know, there's some cash there. You know, there's. But you're doing it anyway. You're doing it anyway. Like, I've always thought in my head, you take a guy like Destiny, right? The Coomer Gremlin, as I like to call him.

[Jamie]

Okay, what do you call him? The what?

[Andrew Wilson]

The Coomer Gremlin.

[Jamie]

What's that mean?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, like, Coomer, like, he Just all he does is he dates. That word. He's like a sexual degenerate. Right.

[Jamie]

Is that what a coomer is?

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, well, a coomer, it's a. It's a little more mild than that. Coomer's just like kind of one of the higher values is just kind of having sex with everyone, right? That's around, like, that's what you do.

[Jamie]

He's, like, bisexual.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he's all kinds of sexual, apparently. But the thing is, is, like, I've often thought that there's times when I'm talking to the guy where I'm like, you don't believe that. Like, you just. There's no fucking way you believe that shit. You're making it up. And I know you're making it up. Right. And you'll catch him at times. He'll be like, whatever I got to say to win the argument.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

And it's like, yeah, I believe that. Yeah, I believe that. But it's like there are people who genuinely believe their view and are excellent debaters backing their view. And I love those engagements. You know, I live for those engagements. The problem is, it's like it's 5% of them, right.

[Jamie]

A lot of people are just trying to win. Right?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, not just trying to win, but I don't even have a problem with going into a debate with a mindset of winning it. If you're representing a view you believe, right, you want to win the engagement, whether it's a conversation or it's a debate, you want to win people over to your side. You want to even win the person you're talking to over to your side. Or maybe sometimes you got to be brutal and destroy the view completely so people don't move towards it. Both of those are completely. I consider them both fine, and I think they're both effective. But the issue that I have ultimately is when you're arguing with somebody and, you know they don't believe what they're saying.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

And, yeah, that wears on you. And it's not just that, but sometimes you hear the same recycled arguments over and over and over. And I'm like, you don't even have to tell me anymore. I can get to the end before you can. I can tell you exactly where you're going to go, what you're going to say, why you're going to say it, what your justification is going to be, and I can just get to the end and take care of this right now.

[Jamie]

It's got to be like, how old are you?

[Andrew Wilson]

42. Just turned 42.

[Jamie]

Weird. Like in your late 30s, early 40s to, like, have entered into this world?

[Andrew Wilson]

Oh, yeah, dude, that'd be so strange. It is beyond bizarre.

[Jamie]

I mean, to be like a normal working class guy doing literal nobody from.

[Andrew Wilson]

Nowhere, no political experience, nothing. I had no entryway, nobody in entertainment, nobody to help me along, nothing.

[Jamie]

And so was it just seeing how ridiculous people were being during the COVID 19 pandemic that, like, motivated you to be vocal about all this stuff?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, and I had time. Yeah, you know, time's a big one, but with the. With the layoff, it's like, oh, well, I don't really have a lot to do. And I'm listening to this and it's like, now I can. Maybe I can engage a little. Maybe I can get involved a little bit, you know, not much. I didn't think. I didn't think anything had ever come of it. You know what I mean? I just wanted. I saw my view wasn't being represented very well.

[Jamie]

But did you have a history of education? Like, were you just reading books? Like, where did you develop these ideas?

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, well, it wasn't just from books, Right. I would listen to long form historic podcasts more than anything. I would be listening to the medium's changed, but I would listen to what people had to say on a variety of issues, and I would watch the news incessantly, and I would be able to. To pick out what's true and what's not true after a while. Political education comes from a variety of sources. You can't get it from the news, and you can't get it from listening to just podcasts, and you can't get it by just talking to people. You have to take a sum total of everything, all of it, in order to at least be even moderately politically savvy and understand what's going on in the world. And I realize most people make commentary on things. They have no fucking idea what they're talking about.

[Jamie]

Right. And so how did you transition to. To doing this as a job?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, it was about two years in to doing this. I was like, look, I sat down with my wife and I said, I'm not making enough money on my podcast to quit my job. There's no way. Or doing debates to quit my job. There's no way. But I think I could. I actually think I could. If I just focused my time on it now, I think I could do it. Replace my income with ease.

[Jamie]

God, that's a big risk, right?

[Andrew Wilson]

It was a Huge risk.

[Jamie]

Because you have a family.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, huge risk. And she said, okay, wow. Gave me a kiss. And next day I went in and quit. And I was like, I don't know what the fuck I just did. You know, it's. In some ways it was like. It's like, oh, I'm gonna go be a big football star. Screw you to your boss. You know what I mean? And it's like, it wasn't the same exactly, but it was a big risk. But I just thought, you know, I really can make a go of this. If I can focus my time and energy on this, I think I'll do really well at it.

[Jamie]

Well, I think you have a very unique mind for it, and I think you're very good at it. And I also think you have really good points that are very valuable for people to hear. And you're really good at pointing out the logical fallacies and pointing out the ridiculous thought processes that a lot of these people have. And that's important, man. It's important for society. I mean, probably don't think of it that way. Probably just enjoy doing it and feel like it's. But it's valuable because there's not a lot of people that are good at it.

[Andrew Wilson]

I get hundreds of DMs weekly from people, and they'll say things, and this again, I'll never get used to it. But what I do, this is my process. I sit down every morning, I have a cup of coffee, and I just respond to every DM that's sent to me.

[Jamie]

Wow.

[Andrew Wilson]

So I used to do that for me. Yeah. You probably get too many, right? Yeah, I get. I thought so, too. I thought, well, if I start getting hundreds every day, there's just no way. But I still do it every morning.

[Jamie]

How much time does it take you?

[Andrew Wilson]

It takes me hours. About two hours. Two hours. Every morning I'll sit down and I'll go through them, and I can't send back long paragraphs, but usually I'll read exactly what they say. And even I'll just say something like, thanks for the support, or I really appreciate you saying that. That means a lot, because it does to me. It's my privilege to have fans. It's not their privilege to be one. And so when I started to see that, and I started to see, wait, this actually does have a massive effect on people, I also began taking it very much more seriously, because I understood I can also say things that do the opposite. They could move people towards the opposite of things, which are good. You know what I mean, or things which are things which you should be moving towards. And so I do take it seriously. And I understand my job is to represent a worldview. And when I go into a debate, that's exactly what I think. Millions of people are going to see this worldview on display. I'm representing it. I need to do the best I can to represent it well, to be.

[Jamie]

An intelligent, reasonable person who's both well read and has very good points that you can express about social issues, societal issues. It's a massive thing. It's a very important thing that mainstream media is not doing a good job job of filling that role. It just doesn't. You know, there's not a lot of people out there. I mean, Christopher Hitchens is dead. There's not a lot of people out there that are really good at debating against ridiculous people and exposing this. And. And it's. It's so important for people to sit down and see something like that and to. To recognize like, oh, I've heard people like that talk. I've always wondered, like, that doesn't make any sense. Why doesn't someone tell that guy to shut the fuck up? Why doesn't someone. And you do that?

[Andrew Wilson]

That's my job.

[Jamie]

That's your job.

[Andrew Wilson]

My job is to go in specifically and say, why don't you shut the fuck up? Because what you're saying, what you're saying is so detrimental to people, too.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Andrew Wilson]

And it's nightmare fuel for them. Like, I mean, people hear this stuff, man. Like, I. I remember this one guy DM me and he was like, andrew, I hate these fucking people. Like, I hate them. He said, I'll listen to him, man. And I just fucking rage in my truck. I'm like, I fucking hate these bastards. He's like, but I can't stop listening. He's like, his mindset was, I want to know what the enemy's thinking. Right? That's his mindset. And I think a lot of it is maybe that particular guy is addicted to rage or whatever. Whatever. You want to frame it. I don't think so. I think the truth is that when people are trying to get to the bottom of things, they're trying to be like, why is this happening? Why is this going on? Why do these people think the way they do? And then they start listening to them. Sometimes it's way worse than you thought. It's like, you really believe that shit? You really think that that's the case? You really think that we should be doing anything like this? What is wrong with you. And I think that for a lot of people that could be a very kind of like jarring experience for them. And I think that that's healthy though. I think that's healthy for you to be kind of jarred out of complacency a little bit.

[Jamie]

What's certainly healthy for other people to watch it. Because certain people lean in one direction or the other and they're not really exactly sure how they feel about things. And sometimes someone who has bad ideas can be very compelling with these bad ideas because they're not being confronted by someone who's better at it, you know, And I think that's a very.

[Andrew Wilson]

Or even as good. Yeah, you know, even, even some. If you just draw a stalemate, it's like sometimes even that's good enough. Because it's like maybe I was leaning towards this or I was leaning towards that, but I'm not sure. Again, sometimes that's the best thing, right? Maybe you shouldn't be too sure on this side or that side, but before you commit, at least maybe I can stop you from making a committal to this. Tons of people are like, man, I was on the fence about Christianity, I was on the fence about orthodoxy. I was on the fence about this. I was on the fence about that. This debate did it for me. Listening to what these people had to say. This debate did it for me. This debate did it for me. Different fans have different highlights that they like because they're all coming from different walks of life, but they're all very similar in one aspect. Most of my audience are married men or marriageable age, late 20s through 30s, early 40s. That's about the demographics, but mostly like 32 to 45. And so these people, they have some life experience, they're not dummies and they're listening to and they're like, it's about time someone told that somebody let them know what was going on. Somebody challenged those ideas, somebody buried them. And yeah, that's what I'm effective at doing and that's what I'm going to keep doing. Because these people are. And here's what I've learned. The higher I go in confrontation with the higher level people, the dumber they get. Really the dumber they get. Back in the old twitch bloodsport days when it was 50 live viewers and me against two leftists and we were slugging it out, they were smarter. These were much smarter people than the high level academic. Like it took on these two academics recently at DeBacon. Both of them are Ivy League Graduates. Right. It was nothing. I could have easily destroyed them while enjoying a hot bowl of soup. It would not have. Like. It was just. It was. It was inconsequential.

[Jamie]

Why do you think that is?

[Andrew Wilson]

Well, I think it's because of there's a degree of ass kissing and there's a degree of people around you affirming over and over and over how great you are. That's where that egotism comes in. Where I was saying earlier in the podcast, you have to be make sure you're grounded, make sure that your ego never takes over. Make sure that you don't become the thing that you hate. Right. And it's so easy to do. But it's also, I think that as they go, things become more cerebral and academic rather than applicable. And those kind of old debates that I was doing was people living in it, not external from it. And so they, you know, it did. They had real emotion behind it. This wasn't just a thing on a chalkboard. And the other thing is, I think a lot of people get where they are in media through connections and not because of merit. I think a lot of people who are in media and are political pundits have no fucking business being there at all. They're dumb as a box of rocks. And they're there because they had connections or they had friends who assisted them in getting in the position they are. And when they are actually confronted on their views, they fall apart. They totally fall apart. I've seen comedians, comics who were on the road for years do better in academic debates than academics. And I go, well, how is this possible? Well, it's possible because that guy has real world experience. He's probably just as well read as you had a lot of downtime, right? So he educated himself, but he can do the thing you can't. He can apply it. That guy has a way to apply this knowledge in a framework that works because he's part of the apparatus of the world. And there was nobody there where he was like, he tugged on their shirt sleeve and said, hey, Daddy, or hey, Uncle Bucks or whoever, I want to be on Fox News. And now they have an in. And I think a lot of that in media happens. I think it's a lot of nepotism there. And a lot of people just really got no business being there at all.

[Jamie]

Don Lemon.

[Andrew Wilson]

Don Lemon. Not just Don Lemon. I mean, no, there's so many of.

[Jamie]

Them to pick on him because he's picked on me.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, well, I don't know what Don Lemon's doing, picking on anybody. Like you would. You would. Same thing. You would destroy Lemon while enjoying a hot bowl of soup. It would just be nothing. Because Lemon's biggest problem is he had never had any business. He was. He was a token. Literally, a token. He was the token gay black guy. He was not valued for his great insights and wonderful political takes and the fantastic way in which he broke down the issues of our time. He was valued because he was a gay dude who was black, who was like, liberal talking points. Yeah, that's it.

[Jamie]

Yeah, I agree. Hey, listen, man, I enjoyed this. Let's do it again sometime. Absolutely. And tell everybody your show, the Crucible, where they could find it.

[Andrew Wilson]

Yeah, my show is the crucible on YouTube. You can also make sure you go and grab a copy of my wife's book, occult Feminism. It's fantastic. I brought you a copy, Joe.

[Jamie]

Cool.

[Andrew Wilson]

And then I know you love feminists. That's why I brought that copy. And then you can also catch me, Debate University. It's a thing that I've done for years. It'll teach you how to debate. You can go check that out as well. Debateuniversity.com I really appreciate the time.

[Jamie]

Hey, I appreciate you being here, man. I think what you're doing is great. I really do. I enjoy it.

[Andrew Wilson]

Thanks.

[Jamie]

All right, bye, everybody. It.