JRE MMA Show #175 with Shakur Stevenson

Summary

The Joe Rogan Experience – MMA Show #175 with Shakur Stevenson Date: March 6, 2026

---

Episode Overview

Joe Rogan welcomes boxing superstar Shakur Stevenson to discuss his career-defining win over Teofimo Lopez, his approach to the sport, the challenges of being an elite boxer, and the mental game behind world-class fighting. The episode dives deep into technical boxing insights, influences, tactics against brain trauma, experiences with cheating in combat sports, and the differences between boxing and MMA. Notable names like Floyd Mayweather, Terence Crawford, Andre Ward, Lomachenko, and Claressa Shields are discussed in-depth.

---

Main Themes & Purpose

• Shakur Stevenson's rise to boxing’s elite status and his recent victory over Teofimo Lopez
• The mental, tactical, and physical demands of being an all-around fighter
• Perspectives on defense, longevity, and brain health in boxing
• The realities and ethics of performance-enhancing drugs in combat sports
• Mentors and role models who shaped Shakur's growth
• Family, humility, and mindset off the canvas
• Boxing’s business and matchmaking challenges at the highest level
• The intersection and contrast between boxing and MMA

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Shakur’s Win over Teofimo Lopez

• Rogan praises Shakur's “standout performance” (00:12)
• Shakur attributes his skills to "hard work, dedication, and God-given ability," emphasizing his natural fighting instincts (00:45, 01:11)
• Describes fighting Lopez as nearly “out of body,” with instincts and tactical mastery taking over
• Rogan highlights Shakur's rare defensive skills and trap-setting: “You take so few punches in your fights.” (01:45)

On Defense, Tactics, and Longevity

• Shakur's conscious avoidance of brain damage:

  “I want to make sure I’m able to really speak well to my kids and grandkids… so taking punishment ain’t for me.” (03:18)

• Rogan: “You are giving up your brain for some people who don’t give a fuck about you.” (04:04)
• Discussion on judging biases, fighting with “purpose,” and the risk-reward of crowd-pleasing wars (02:43)

The Complete Fighter Mindset

• Shakur: “I just feel like I’m a fighter that could do it all… I’m the most complete fighter in boxing.” (05:37, 06:24)
• Rogan: “That mindset is what you need… you can’t just look at the guys who are your competitors.” (06:24)
• Difficulty finding big fights due to being “too good” and making world-class opponents look like novices (06:41, 06:45)
• Shakur on discipline: “The biggest thing that I don’t get credit for is my discipline.” (08:06)

Discipline, Growth, and the Grind

• Shakur: “I kind of only really shown like 70% of what I really could do.” (11:36)
• Rogan: “It’s a matter of maintaining that over years… That’s so difficult.” (12:21)
• Early career setbacks prepared Shakur mentally for success (13:07)
• Terence Crawford’s influence: “He put my game at a very high level… me just being in the gym, able to watch him.” (14:18)

On Mentors: Terence Crawford & Andre Ward

• Shakur’s respect and gratitude for sparring alongside, and learning from, Crawford (15:13–16:53)
• Rogan praises Crawford’s versatility and all-time great status (15:17)
• Andre Ward's role as a mentor and technical adviser (22:03)
• Difference between Ward’s and Floyd Mayweather’s post-career choices, importance of leaving with faculties intact (21:46)

The Business of Boxing, Fame & Family

• Aspirations of financial security and avoiding the pitfalls of fighting past prime (20:00)
• Shakur contrasts himself with boxers who chase fame: “I'm just a regular person… I enjoy spending time with my family.” (39:15, 39:57)
• Growing up with competitive brothers shaped his toughness and mindset: “They would throw it in your face.” (35:09)

Sparring Stories & Tactical Development

• Shakur’s competitive sparring with Lomachenko and Lopez—why sparring outcomes can impact potential fight negotiations (24:48–27:34)
• Lessons from sparring: “If I’m Lomachenko and I saw what he did as a kid… why would I test the water?” (27:00)

Mindset, Pressure & Performing Under Lights

• Gym fighters vs. fight night performers— the difference is mental (32:22)
• Rogan and Shakur discuss pressure, fear, nerves, how top fighters handle it: “What you thinking and believing… is what’s going to come out.” (33:25)
• Shakur’s competitive drive comes partly from wanting to impress/support family (36:01)

Boxing’s Technical Advisors & Coaching

• Father-son coaching—benefits and pitfalls; importance of separating parent from coach in the corner (58:44)
• Shakur’s grandfather’s major influence: “He allowed me to love the sport of boxing myself.” (38:31)

Comparing Boxing & MMA

• Deep differences between elite boxing and MMA striking (67:03–68:15)
• Admiration for MMA wrestlers: “I want to learn how to wrestle. I feel like they're the strongest people.” (68:42)
• Mutual respect among sports—each sees their own discipline as ‘the best’, but acknowledges other’s strengths (66:28, 66:48)

PEDs & Cheating in Combat Sports

• Extensive discussion on the history of steroids and drug testing in boxing and MMA (115:04–119:48)
• Rogan reveals MMA’s “Wild West” era and how modern random testing (USADA/VADA) cleans up the sport (117:57, 119:48)
• Shakur adamant about VADA testing in all his fights: “I do not play that.” (125:23)
• Risks and psychology of fighting cheaters—"It's life or death." (126:55)

Notable Quotes

• Shakur Stevenson (on defense and brain health):
  “I want to make sure that I'm able to really speak well to my kids and my grandkids and all of that. So taking punishment ain't for me.” (03:18)

• Joe Rogan (on entertaining wars):
  “You are giving up your brain for some people who don't give a fuck about you.” (04:04)

• Shakur Stevenson (on needing a challenge):
  “I'm the most complete fighter in boxing.” (05:37)

• Joe Rogan (on mentoring):
  “Being in the gym with another guy who’s an all time great… that’s better than any coach in the world.” (15:50)

• Shakur Stevenson (on learning from sparring):
  “I could beat anybody. I get in there with Terrence Crawford… I’m in the ring with the best fighter in the world.” (14:18)

• Joe Rogan (on Shakur’s performance):
  “For a breakout performance, you need another dude who’s had breakout performances that everybody respects and knows. Like Teofimo.” (41:51)

• Shakur Stevenson (on avoiding overconfidence):
  “I be scared of being too confident. So I be trying to make guys bigger in my brain.” (30:01)

Influences, Learning & Leading by Example

• Importance of constant learning from every source:
  “I keep my notepad out everywhere I go.” (83:34)
• Shakur encourages younger fighters to self-study and analyze their own flaws (90:02)
• He sees his post-boxing future as a “secret weapon,” using boxing intelligence to elevate the next generation (91:00–92:24)
• Advocates for more fighters to write books and share knowledge: “Boxing knowledge is all word of mouth in the gym.” (92:56)

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:12–06:24: Discussing the Teofimo Lopez fight, mindset, and Shakur's all-around skills
• 13:07–16:53: Influence of Terence Crawford and Andre Ward
• 21:46–23:10: Thoughts on retirement, Floyd, and Ward's post-career paths
• 24:48–27:34: Sparring with Lomachenko, implications for potential fights
• 32:22–34:44: Nerves, pressure, and handling big moments
• 66:28–68:42: Boxing vs. MMA—technical and strategic differences
• 115:04–119:48: PEDs, drug testing evolution, impact on boxing and MMA
• 125:23–127:24: VADA testing, the seriousness of PEDs in combat sports
• 83:34, 92:56, 94:26: On learning, teaching, and the need for written boxing wisdom

---

Notable & Memorable Moments

• Impactful Praise: Joe Rogan repeatedly calls Shakur’s performance against Lopez “a wake up call for boxing” and a “breakout” that showed “there are levels.”
• Candid Reflection: Shakur openly shares how losses as an amateur—and his brothers making fun of him—drove his competitive edge (35:09)
• Mentorship: Profound respect for mentors like Crawford and Ward, and family, as essential to Shakur’s development and mindset (14:18, 22:03, 38:31)
• Technical Introspection: Honest breakdown of training adjustments, overtraining risks, and tactical self-improvement (82:06, 86:08)
• Ethics in Boxing: Passionate discussion on the consequences of cheating and steroids’ potential to be life or death in the ring (126:16, 127:10)

---

Conclusion

Shakur Stevenson’s appearance creates a masterclass in what it means to excel and survive in elite boxing. Listeners are treated to rare candor about the road to greatness, tutelage under legends, the burden of being avoided, and the multidimensional preparation (mental, emotional, physical, and ethical) that defines a complete fighter. The discussion bridges the worlds of boxing and MMA with mutual respect, technical detail, and hard-earned wisdom—ultimately affirming Shakur’s place among the sport’s most intelligent and disciplined practitioners.

---

Transcript

[Joe Rogan]

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night.

[Shakur Stevenson]

All day.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, anyway, thanks for coming down here, man. Appreciate it. And congratulations on that standout performance against Tiafimo. Because that was a. That was a giant wake up call for the entirety of boxing. The level that you're on, was it so high that you could be in there with a world champion. A world champion and make him a guy who beat, I mean, legit guys, including Lomachenko? Yeah, it was a big victory for him and you made him look like he had no business in there.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Honestly, it's just hard work, dedication and God given ability. God given ability.

[Joe Rogan]

I think you have all that plus intelligence, plus you start real young. And there's something about those dudes who start real young. You grow up with that. It's like in your central nervous system as you're a young child. Yeah, I mean, would you start boxing like 5?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I started boxing at 5, but honestly, you could say the same for Teo too. Cause he kind of started at like 7. So we both was kind of similar in like experience. But I just felt like with me, the God given ability of my instincts always kick in. Like when we fought, I felt like my brain just knew how to win. Like, it just. Everything was just like my instincts kicked in and everything just took over. Like, I didn't even. It felt like an out of body experience.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, you're a very tactical guy. Like, you know, there's a thing. One of the things I love about watching you fight is I love watching a guy who sets traps and who avoids damage. And you are one of the absolute, very best ever at setting traps and avoid damage. You take so few punches in your fights. Yeah, there was that one fight where you decided. Recent fight. We decided to stand with that dude. Who was that?

[Shakur Stevenson]

William Zepeda.

[Joe Rogan]

That's right. Zepeda's a tough guy, man.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He is.

[Joe Rogan]

But you fought that in a different way. Did you do that on purpose?

[Shakur Stevenson]

It was partly on purpose and partly to get his respect. Cause I really ain't have a choice but to get his respect. Because if I'd have tried to outbox him and move around the ring, I probably would have made the fight harder than it had to be. So I knew, like, I gotta like make him respect me early. And that's what I kind of like started the fight hot.

[Joe Rogan]

Why would it make it harder than it had to be if you box him?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Because sometimes when you like a guy, like if you watch today's boxing judges give the fight to mostly the guys that's coming forward. So if I done went in there and bagging up and moving around the ring while he was more active, it probably would have looked as though he's winning the fight. So I had to make sure like the judges know who's winning. So I kind of had to take some in order to give something in that fight.

[Joe Rogan]

There was a very unusual fight for you. I saw an interview with you after that fight. We were like, I'm not fighting like that again. Fuck that. Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Cause I know, like, I see like the modern day, like the old school boxers and like the punishment that they taking. And you'll see them today, they can't really talk as well as like the Andre wars and the Floyd Mayweather who can talk good and still articulate things to their grandkids, parents, to their grandchildren, to their children. And for me personally, it's like I want to make sure that I'm able to really speak well to my kids and my grandkids and all of that. So taking punishment ain't for me.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I support that 100%. And I applaud fighters like you for setting an example for young fighters coming up. Like defense and tactics and understanding the game is the most important thing. These guys that want to put on an entertaining fight and just go in there and slug it out like, man, you are giving up your brain for some people who don't give a fuck about you.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Oh my God. That's the God's honest truth right there. I be seeing a lot of fighters nowadays where they stand there like punching bags and let people hit on them. And you'll see them after the fight they marked up and in a few years, I don't think that they're going to be able to speak as well as like somebody like me.

[Joe Rogan]

So no, there's a bunch of examples of that. Obviously we could all see it, but you know, it's a complicated sport and for people that don't understand the sport and don't appreciate the sport, they just see two dudes punching each other, but they don't see subtle movements. And you were doing this like half out jab and then popping them with it and you could tell he had no idea it was coming. It was so frustrating for Teofimo was watching. I was like, I. There was a bunch of times while I was watching, I just was yelling out by myself in my house going, oh, that check right hook. Ooh, it was so pretty. Man, you, you hit him with some Pretty shot, but it was. It was just. You were just tuning him up. It was. It was a beautiful performance, man. Because it was everything that I love in boxing.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Skill, movement, understanding ring iq, knowing what's happening. And every time he would get fired up and try to take it to you, the most he could do is touch your body.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's all he was able to do.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Honestly, for me, personally, I feel like I'm like the best fighter in boxing. And I don't, like, mean this in no disrespectful way. Cause I got a lot of fighters in boxing that I still watch to this day that I like. And I'm like, okay, they. I'm still this Usyk. I love Usyk. I love Useyk. I love Bavar. I love them Eastern European styles. But for me, like, I just feel like I'm a fighter that could do it all. Like, I can do it all. Like, whatever needs to be done to get the job done, I can do that. So some nights you might see, I might outbox people. Then some nights I might stand there and beat a guy up and beat them at their own game. So I think for me, I'm the most complete fighter in boxing.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that mindset is what you need, especially in a sport where you've dominated divisions. Right. So if you've dominated divisions and you're still looking to achieve a higher level, you can't just look at the guys that are your competitors.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because at 135, it was so hard for you to get fights.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

At 140 now, what are you going to do? You just do that to Tiafimo.

[Shakur Stevenson]

It scared a lot of people.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Nobody wants to look stupid. I mean, Tfimo has had some good fights in the past, and he's lost in the past, but he's never looked out of place.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And he looked out of place now.

[Shakur Stevenson]

It's crazy, though, because when I seen him when he fought in New York on the Times Square card, I'm like, man, this dude is nice. Like, I'm sitting there, I'm like, whoa. Like, I couldn't believe, like, how good he was, but it kind of like, just made me get up. Like, I'm like, okay. I wanna.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I wanna see, like, what he can do with me. Right. Cause the way he made Arnold Barboza look in New York was like. He just made him look like he's not on his level.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, he wasn't on his level. But then Teofimo's not on your level. I mean, this is the beautiful thing about competitive sports, especially boxing. This one, which I think is the purest form of competition, boxing and mma, is that you can show that as great as a fighter is, like, people could watch the Teofimo fight and have no idea how good he is.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And I would say, go watch the Barboza fight, go watch the Lomachenko fight, go watch many of his fights. The guy was an excellent fighter. Still is an excellent fighter. But there are levels.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

And the mindset that you have, I am the best fighter in the world, period, is what allows you to beat guys like that in the hard work, for sure.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Like I said, I'm God given and I work super hard. And I think the biggest thing that I don't get credit for is my discipline. Like, I feel like I'm very disciplined when it comes down to making the sacrifices and making the life changes that I need to make in order to be 100% on fight night. And I feel like a lot of people don't give me. I mean, they don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

They don't know. That's all it is.

[Shakur Stevenson]

You know, I be seeing like fans tweet and they be like, oh, get off Twitter or get off social media. But I'll be on social media like right after I just left the gym, I'm like, what's the problem? Like, I'm just talking my talk on social media right now. Like, let me live.

[Joe Rogan]

Like this episode is brought to you by. Momentous Creatine's strength benefits are already backed by tons of research. But what's really interesting is where the research is headed. It's highlighting what a lot of people miss out about creatine, that it's core function is cellular energy, meaning it impacts not only your muscles, but your brain too. Like all supplements, not all creatine is created equal. Momentous Creatine is backed by the Momentous standard, sourced from the highest quality German creatine with no fillers or additives. It's also independently NSF certified for sport, guaranteeing purity and label accuracy. Momentous always does things the right way, not the easy way. You can try Momentous Creatine in their classic clean powder or check out their newest option, Creatine chewable tablets. Momentous Creatine chews are the cleanest way to take creatine on the go. Available in lemon, lime, strawberry and mango. If you want to try it for yourself, shop Momentous creatine@live momentous.com rogan and and use the code rogan for up to 35% off your first order. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. When you want to train your dog, you don't want just any rando off the streets who likes animals. You want someone with the skills to get your pet where you want them to be. Someone who can help you help them. So why wouldn't you do the same? When it comes to hiring for your business, skill based hiring is the thing to do right now. And a good way to go about that is Zip Recruiter. Especially since you can try for free at ZipRecruiter.com ZipRecruiter can help you find the perfect match for your role. Their smart matching technology works fast to find candidates while screening questions help ensure you find quality talent with the skills you're looking for. It even has filters you can use to see who's been recently active on the site. Let ZipRecruiter help you find amazing candidates with the skills you seek. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for [e-mail] Rogan that's ziprecruiter.com Rogan Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Well, people are always looking to criticize, but there's no way you can have the kind of performances that you're having

[Shakur Stevenson]

and not be locked.

[Joe Rogan]

And not be locked in. It's not possible, especially over 12 rounds. Because, I mean, you know better than anybody alive that the kind of discipline that it takes to be in the kind of condition that you have to be in to fight 12 hard rounds, they put on a virtuoso performance.

[Shakur Stevenson]

So it's like, it's crazy though. Everybody like, like, y' all love the performance because y' all got to see it that day. But like, for me, when I'm in the gym, it's still levels that I feel like I haven't got to show to the world. Like, I kind of only really shown like 70% of like, what I really could do. And I feel like with that performance, it was just like, okay, this is like an okay day in the gym. Like a okay day. It ain't like my best day in the gym. Like, I have like, days in the gym where I'm like, ooh, I don't know how I just did that, but I'm just like on point. So it was a good day though.

[Joe Rogan]

The thing is, you're getting better.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, for sure.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, that's the thing, it's like those days that you have in the gym and this performance and the mindset that you have, like, it's still not saying I did it all. Not seeing, okay, virtuoso performance, still only 70% of what you're capable of. That's what takes a guy from being a very good fighter to being an all time great. Yeah. And it's a matter of maintaining that over years and years and years. That is so difficult for people.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And discipline is where that comes in.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Enthusiasm and motivation is great in the beginning. A lot of people have enthusiasm and motivation in the beginning, but it's when you've been a champ for five years, six years, you know, the grind of it all, the. The 12 week training camp, away from your family, people don't think about that.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. That's why I'm kind of glad that I got the. All of the things that happened in my career where I had a little trials and tribulations happened early. So when I had my hand problem and I had like a fight where I didn't perform as well as I wanted to, it kind of got me prepared for like now. Now it's like I'm 100% on top of my game. Like, you're not gonna be able to like beat me without me being like fully prepared. Like, you gonna have to be a bad dude to come in the ring and beat me, like, because I. I just don't see it happening with none of these guys.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's like how far you've gone. Right. Like, you started off at 5 and been intensely focused for all these years. How old are you now? 20.

[Shakur Stevenson]

28.

[Joe Rogan]

28, which is prime. Yeah, that's it. Like 28 to like 34 is the best year. But then again, you look at Terence, I mean, he's at an age where a lot of people say it's over. And he put on the performance of his career against Can.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I don't know how he do it. He's like a different human being.

[Joe Rogan]

He's so smart.

[Shakur Stevenson]

If I'm honest. He is like the reason, I'm not gonna say he, the reason why I am who I am today, but he brought my game from like, where it was at to like a very high level. And he don't even realize, like, he done that, like me just being in the gym, able to watch him and pick up on like the little things that he doing. His bad days, his good days, his. I'm seeing everything. And like when he come out there on Fight night. How prepared and how ready, how confident. Like, honestly, that dude kind of. He put me into a whole different world to now, to where I'm like, oh, I can. I could beat anybody. I get in there with Terrence Crawford, and if I could spar with him, I could. How you gonna hurt me? How you gonna. How. How you gonna beat me? Like, right, I'm in the ring with the best fighter in the world.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, one of the best of all time.

[Shakur Stevenson]

You feel me?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. One of the best of all and one of the most versatile of all time.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Because that's a guy who switches up left, right?

[Shakur Stevenson]

There's nothing he can't do in a boxing ring.

[Joe Rogan]

Nothing. Nothing he can't do. And the way he sets people up. We were talking during the podcast I did with him, he did this one sneaky thing where he was throwing a straight left, and then Canelo would go to counter and he would hook it right off of the punch. Like on the extension, Canelo would lean back to counter, bop and catch him on the chin. You could see it. It's like, oh, my God, that's pretty.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I've never seen him throw that punch until Canelo, though. That's the crazy part.

[Joe Rogan]

Being in the gym with another guy who's an all time great, pound for pound best, that is so valuable. And so many guys don't like that because they don't want to be the second best or they don't want to be in there with someone who's as good as them. You know what I mean? Like, iron sharpens iron, for sure. And for you to be a young guy who have a guy. Terrence is what, 10 years older than you?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Have a guy who's further down the path and be able to see him and absorb all that, that's better than any coach of the world.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, but it's been going on for years. Like, it ain't like, just a new thing people don't understand. Like, when I was 19 years old, I was around Terrence and I was at his house playing him in 2K. We go to the gym, argue. Like, he really one of the most competitive persons I ever met in my entire life.

[Joe Rogan]

But you have to be.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I just never, like for me, I just know for a fact my game has up because of that dude.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it has to. It's also, you're seeing this level that is so high in boxing. Like, you can compare it. You could go back and look at Sugar Ray Leonard. You can look at Purnell Whitaker. You look at all these guys. And you can compare Terrence to the people that the pundits sit down and say, all time greats. Terrence is unquestionably all time great.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He might even be better than them.

[Joe Rogan]

He might be.

[Shakur Stevenson]

All due respect to the Legends, I agree with you. He is that good.

[Joe Rogan]

He's that good. I feel like there's a thing that was happening before the Canelo fight where a lot of people were sort of dismissing his previous opponents and saying he never beat anybody. And Canelo's another level. I know a lot of people bet a lot of money on Canelo. I was like, that's not a good bet, man.

[Shakur Stevenson]

It seemed like that's the thing in boxing to where it's like, if they don't know the opponents, if you're not fighting somebody, that's like a bigger name, right? They makes it seem like the opponents is not good. Exactly. Like, not true. Because at the end of the day, it's low level opponents that don't get the type of shine that the high level opponents get, but they will beat the high level opponent. And are they really high level opponents at this point? Like, I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, there's hot, there's high level, and then there's the elite of the elite, right?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, for sure.

[Joe Rogan]

There's always that. There's like some guys that if they're in. Like I always said that about Roy Jones during his prime. Like, everybody said Roy Jones didn't find anybody. Not true. Roy Jones just made everybody look like they weren't anybody because he was. That he was so elite. And that's kind of the problem that Terrence was facing up until the Canelo fight. Because when a guy goes up two weight classes, all the way up to 68, right? I mean, starts his career at 35.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Last fight, he fights at 68 and then puts on a virtuoso performance. Performance, Virtual shutout. Maybe Canelo won one round.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, I mean, then everybody has to shut the fuck up.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, he shut everybody up. Because you had to see, like, he used to say that he wouldn't fight Canelo. Like, he used to be like, oh, Canelo's too big. I wouldn't fight him. Then, like, it's like out of nowhere he had a change in mind. And like, he just went and attacked the situation. And it was a bad situation to be in. Like, you're gonna go fight somebody two way classes higher, punch hard, bigger than you, and you're going to go do that. So for me, he just. Dude is amazing.

[Joe Rogan]

He's amazing. And another amazing example for young fighters, you know, incredibly disciplined, never out of shape, and has all his faculties, doesn't do anything. All his faculties intact. And he's leaving the game with 100%. No undefeated record, no questions asked. Fought everybody. There's no one lining up to fight him right now. He's older and he did it all, and he came out unscathed.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Bye.

[Joe Rogan]

Bye.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That's my biggest goal.

[Joe Rogan]

It's a perfect goal.

[Shakur Stevenson]

My biggest goal is to leave boxing. And when I leave boxing, be good enough. Well, not good enough. Great enough financially, to where I don't ever have to get back in the boxing ring. Like, I don't want to be one of them fighters that's, like, need boxing. Like, I hate that. Like, that's my biggest pet peeve. Like, long as I'm having fun with boxing, I want to be doing it. But once it's not fun no more, I don't want to have to, like, oh, we got this $20 million payday. I need it, and I don't want to feel that way.

[Joe Rogan]

So, like, Floyd.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, the situation that Floyd's in right now, this is crazy. I was having a conversation with a friend of mine right now, and he's like, why is Floyd fighting again? I go, because he needs money. He was like, what?

[Shakur Stevenson]

How?

[Joe Rogan]

Floyd made more money than anybody ever. It's like, yeah, but he spent more money than everybody ever.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I try to stay out of that. Cause I don't know, like, the real situation with Floyd. Cause I'm not really in tune on it, but only thing with Floyd that's kind of weird to me is, like, he loved boxing so much. Like, you gotta actually be around him. Like, he want to be in the gym. He want to, like. So it'd be hard for me to just believe, like, okay, he's just dead broke. Like, I don't know. It's hard to believe that.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, if he's not dead broke, he's definitely got issues. Yeah. Right. So he's got a bunch of lawsuits where he owes money. You know, Logan Paul says he owes him money. He owes money for some other things. I don't know. I'm with you. I don't know. But it's also. It's like, I like a guy like Andre wardrobe. I like a guy who goes out on top. And, you know, they offered Andre a ton of money to come back and fight Canelo after Canelo beat Kovalev.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And he was like, you know what? I think I serve boxing better as a commentator and a spokesperson for the sport. I made plenty of money. I'm undefeated two division world champion, Olympic gold medalist. Bye bye. That's it. All faculty's intact. No worries about his brain health and everything like that. That's the way to go out.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Andre Ward is another dude who helped my career. Yeah, he helped my career a lot. If I had to. If I need something, right. Let's say I need something and I need to figure out how to do it or what to do in a situation with weight or whatever it is. When it come to boxing, if I'm calling Andre Ward, he gonna give you the best explanation, like, out of all the guys. Like, he explains things from detail. Like, he gonna detail it and make me really understand what I gotta do. Like, Andre Ward is somebody who I looked up to since the Kid. So he another guy. I just wasn't around him enough in a gym as I was around Bud. But, like, Andre Ward was my favorite fighter as an amateur. Like, I came in.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, really?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, most people don't know that Andre Ward fought most of his career with one arm.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Which is crazy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But it's crazy that one arm is his best arm. He's left handed. For real. For real. So.

[Joe Rogan]

But it's still crazy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

It is. It is.

[Joe Rogan]

It's still crazy. Think about all the guys he beat. And he beat them with a left hand.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And then finally got shoulder surgery and then had a right hand and still. Still kind of fucked up.

[Shakur Stevenson]

It's not 100%, you know, the misconception about his career. I feel like when he beat Kovalev, people don't realize how good Kovalev was.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, he was good in the day.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Like, he was insanely, like, fucking power boxing length. He had everything. A great jab, a great right hand.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

And for Andre Ward to go beat that dude that put the stamp on, like, his career and got dropped. Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Got dropped and hurt and recovered and still won. I mean, that was big. Yeah. Kovalev. People see Kovalev when he lost to Canelo, he was already kind of washed. Yeah, he was already washed. He'd been drinking a lot. There was a lot of, you know, a lot of these fighters, they get to, like, we're saying it's sustaining that will, that drive, that discipline, that focus. It's hard to do, but if you go back when he had it, man, when he was in his prime and he was a world champion, he was fucking everybody up, man.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Killer.

[Joe Rogan]

And he Was scary.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, he was a killer.

[Joe Rogan]

Scary right hand. Yeah, he was a pistol.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I go back and watch him, too. He another guy that I go back and watch. I like the way he keep his distance. He keep his distance really good. He got that Eastern European like. Them guys are really good boxers. Like, when I watch them, I'm like, okay. Like, I love watching Baval.

[Joe Rogan]

Bivol's amazing.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I love it.

[Joe Rogan]

He's got such an amazing style. I mean, him, Usyk Lomachenko's kind of a cat. That's a fight I really wish would have happened between you and him, man. Was there ever talk about that?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I messed myself up. I kind of did this to myself. So I understand why a lot of fighters wouldn't fight me. A lot of fighters wouldn't fight me because I sparred him and I messed myself up. When I was trying to spar him at that time, I never thought it will be a day of me and him fighting. Like, I didn't think that far down the line. I really was just thinking he was the best fighter in boxing. Number one, pound for pound, I want to be able to go get in the ring with him and see how I can do. Like, they told me they wasn't even going to pay me for the sparring. I'm like, okay, I'm cool. I don't want to get paid. I'm just here to get in the ring with Lomachenko. But years later. Yeah, how'd that go? How the sparring went, I think, see, I don't diss nobody in sparring, so I can't say that.

[Joe Rogan]

We don't have to diss him.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I'll keep it real. With the sparring, I felt like I was out boxing him, but I also knew the level he was on was, like his conditioning. And that's when it made me like, okay, I gotta be in, like, tip top conditioning. Cause the first day we sparred, we did six rounds. I felt like it was like, okay, I can outbox him. The next time we sparred, he made me do 12 straight.

[Joe Rogan]

Real.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. So when he made me do 12 straight for the first eight, I'm good. Like, I'm good for eight. But, like, the last four rounds, I want to say he started, like, picking up the pace and he ain't get off on me, but he got the better of the last four rounds, I was saying.

[Joe Rogan]

And you feel like it was because of fatigue a little bit?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, it was for sure because of fatigue, but it wasn't like, the skills, like, skillfully I felt like I was the better fighter. Like, I felt like my range and my distance and my speed was kind of better than his, but, like, from a standpoint of being in shape and throwing more punches, I felt like he was kind of. But he was getting ready for his fight. I was getting ready for my fight, too, so.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's a very valuable learning experience, right?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You mean better to learn it then. Then to learn in a fight?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, but for referral, it messed me up, because now it's like, if I'm loving Cenko and I know he was, what, £126 at the time, he was a kid. Now I see him all grown up. He bigger, stronger, and I seen what he was doing as a kid, I'd probably be like, why would I test the water with him? Like, I wouldn't really want to see that guy. That's not the guy I would want to see. So.

[Joe Rogan]

That's funny. So you think that those sparring matches were the reason why you never got a fight with him?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, for sure. I was surprised Teo fought me. Honestly, I was very surprised.

[Joe Rogan]

Did you spar him as well? Yeah, yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But when we sparred, we only did three rounds, but he made it seem like he kind of got off on me. But honestly, I felt like I was the best fighter.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, Teal's a very headstrong guy. Yeah, he's very, very tough, very confident guy. I mean, look, when he beat Lomachenko, that was his standout performance. He had that piston jab, man, he was sharp. He was sharp.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I watched that fight a thousand times before my fight.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I just think he knew that Lomachenko was a ghost. He was so hard to hit, and just he came out explosive.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I just think Lomachenko had a speed to, like, get his respect. Like, I feel like Teo was kind of faster, and he knew, like, from a speed standpoint, he was gonna use it to his advantage.

[Joe Rogan]

Also, Teo was a lot bigger, and he was dangerous. Like, he was throwing danger with every punch. Even that jab had danger behind it.

[Shakur Stevenson]

It's crazy. I felt like he was strong when I was fighting him.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, he's strong as fuck.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Everybody think that he wasn't, But I'm like, man, I ain't gonna lie. It was some shots. Like, I would catch on the glove, and I'd be like, I don't know what you. What you doing in your training, bro, but don't.

[Joe Rogan]

Kind of solid, but look at the size of that motherfucker. I mean, he's jacked. He looks great.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He's ripped.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. He's just. But, you know, he's not done. And a fight like that with you is a wake up call for a guy like him, too. It's like, man, I got a tight shit 50.

[Shakur Stevenson]

50, though. It's 50, 50. Cause sometimes they can play with your mental. So some guys don't be the same after getting embarrassed in front of the world like that. Like.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, he's come back before. Like the Kambosas fight. Kambosos dropped him early, and that was a crazy upset.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, but it was different. Cause in this instance, he got really embarrassed. With Kambosos, it was like. It was a 50, 50. He felt like he won the fight. He left feeling that way.

[Joe Rogan]

But getting dropped by Kambosos, nobody saw that coming.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Nah, I didn't see that coming either.

[Joe Rogan]

I ain't gonna lie. I think it was like, second round, too, right?

[Shakur Stevenson]

It was the first round, but fighting dumb. I never seen Teal even fight like that either. He went in there, like, just trying to knock him out from the first round.

[Joe Rogan]

I think after the Lomachenko fight, he felt like, this dude is not on my level. I'm the best fighter in the world, you know, that could. With your head, too. Overconfidence can. With your head.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. You know, I'll be trying to, like, with. I'll be trying to, like, stay away from that, like, because I'm very, like, confident in myself, so I be scared of being too confident. So I be trying to, like, make guys bigger in my brain. Like, oh, this guy, he's the truth. So that's smart. Yeah, I got to, like, I don't have no choice because I'm very confident.

[Joe Rogan]

We've all seen fighters that go in unprepared and think that a fighter is not on their level. And then that guy puts on, knock him out. Buster Douglas and Mike tyson, perfect example. 42 to 1, underdog. And it was a perfect storm because Buster's mama just died. And Buster was always one of those guys that was known to be super talented in the gym. Super talented, but not dedicated. Just not driven. Just didn't. Didn't make the most of his talent. But for that one fight, he was like, I'm fighting Mike Tyson. I'm not scared of him. My mom is dead. I'm. I'm putting in the fucking work. And he came out throwing that jab with the hook off the jab. Pop, wap, pop, wap. And it was a totally different Buster Douglas, like, the best Buster Douglas we've ever seen. Ever. Yeah, that final combination when he knocked Mike Tyson out. Dude, I didn't even watch that fight live. A friend of mine told me about it, and I was like, are you fucking serious? He told me at the gas station. He's like, buster Douglas knocked out Mike Tyson. I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And then I went home and watched it. And even while I knew I. That Buster Douglas had won, I expected Mike Tyson to get up and kill him. I was like, I can't believe this is happening. That's how much of an upset that was.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, that was definitely one of the biggest upsets, I think. I don't know. Cause I wasn't during that time, but from what I seen, it just looked like Mike didn't expect him to be that good. Like, it was a shocker.

[Joe Rogan]

I think it was a shocker for everybody. Yeah, well, that's.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But that's boxing. That's what could happen in the sport. I done seen that happen plenty of times. And honestly, it be some guys that I see in a gym that I'm like, bro, if you do that stuff on fight night, bro, you probably be champion of the world. Like, it's a lot of gym fighters who really got talent. But, yeah, when the bright lights come on, a lot of fighters be kind of different.

[Joe Rogan]

And what do you think that is?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I think it's pressure. I think it's nerves. I think it's like. It's a lot. It's a lot. Cause I know I felt it. Like, I felt it for my fight with Teo. I felt pressure. I felt all of that kind of stuff. But I'm too tough. Like, I know my mental ain't gone. It's me or that person at the end of the day, my life or your life. And I'mma choose my life when it come down to it. So I was good. But I know it's a lot of fighters that I see in the gym. And I'm like, man, I don't understand how you don't perform like this on under the Lights.

[Joe Rogan]

There's always guys like that. There's always guys that are potential world champions in the gym. And, you know, some people bank on them, and some, you know, you go, this guy just needs a mental coach. Needs something to get him over that hump. But it's always interesting to me because what is the difference between a guy who could just walk out there on fight day and perform at 100% of his ability versus a guy who gets Dwarfed by the moment. The moment comes. The big pressure.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, it's all mental. It's all in your head. Yeah. What you thinking and what you believe in and the things that's going on in your brain is what's going to come out. Like, I'm already telling myself, like I said, I tell myself it's either me or him, so my life or your life. And one of us got to go. Yeah, one of us got to go.

[Joe Rogan]

But what do you think is going on in the. I mean, everybody experiences pressure, everybody experiences nerves. But what is it about fighters that are so talented that let that overcome them versus fighters? Oftentimes they're maybe not even as talented, but they rise to the occasion when those lights are on. When those lights are on, there are fighters that fight better. Like, sometimes they look shit in the gym. And then when those bright lights are

[Shakur Stevenson]

on, I had moments like that. I had moments where I'm like, man, I felt bad in the gym. I don't know what. I had this camp. This was a horrible camp. And then fight night coming. I'm like, on point.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, you know, that's what they said about Ali when he fought George Foreman. They said he looked terrible in the gym and everybody was nervous about him. But he had a strategy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I think with, like, some fighters is fear. Like, I think it's fear of, like, losing, a fear of the negative happening. And I think with some fighters, they allow fear to control them.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

As in some other fighters who, if I get fearful, I'm gonna attack my fears. Like, I'm not scared to even go and give it a try. Whatever happened is gonna happen. At the end of the day, it's all written already.

[Joe Rogan]

So is this something that you built up over time, or is this something someone imparted on you when you were young and you embraced it? Like, how did you learn to have that champion mindset?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I think it's wild to say, but I think it's really my little brother's and my little sisters, but really my little brothers. I used to go to amateur tournaments and if I lose and I gotta come home to my little brothers, oh, they on me, they on me. And it's like, you gotta come home and they remember the name of the opponent that beat you, and they would throw it in your face. Oh, don't make me go get Joseph Adorno. That's a real guy that beat me back in the day. Shout out to Joseph Adorno. But I used to have to hear that in a house. And now I still be with them. So it's like, I know I gotta go home to my little brothers and see them after these fights. And I had that in the back of my head. I'm not coming home to them.

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Without the wind, like, they got us. No.

[Joe Rogan]

Did you tell your little brothers that they do that for you?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Nah, they. I don't even think I ever said it to them. It just was so natural because I used to always get in fights with them and they used to always bring up an opponent that beat me and I'm like, now they. Now if I beat everybody, they can't say it no more.

[Joe Rogan]

That's hilarious. That's hilarious. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. I don't know if you guys know this, but my website, joerogan.com is powered by Squarespace. And it's great because with Squarespace cutting edge design tools, anyone can build a website that that perfectly fits their brand or business. I'm talking a fully custom website in just a few steps, thanks to Squarespace's AI enhanced website builder. Head to squarespace.com rogan for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use the offer code rogan to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. This episode is brought to you by Shipstation. When your company's growing fast order fulfillment can make or break your success. Shipstation's intelligence driven platform brings order management, rate shopping, inventory and returns, warehouse systems and comprehensive analytics all in one place. Saving customers 15 hours per week on fulfillment. Shipstation compares rates across all major global carriers, including USPS, UPS and FedEx. Plus your own discounted rates if you have them, to find you the best shipping option on every order with discounts up to 90% off. There's a reason why over 1 million businesses trust Shipstation. Try Shipstation free for 60 days with full access to all features. No credit card needed. Go to shipstation.com and use the code JRE for 60 days free. 60 days gives you plenty of time to see exactly how much time and money you're saving on every shipment. That ship station on.com code jre well, because different fighters develop, you know, different ways of rising to the occasion, different ways of maintaining a championships mindset. And some of them, they learn it from their coach. You know, Customato famously trained Tyson and even hypnotized him and told them that you don't exist, only the task exists. And he had Mike Tyson just like a fucking machine when he would get into that ring.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I think Shout out to my grandfather too. Cause my grandfather is my coach and like, his energy during fight week, like, they don't even realize, like, it wasn't even just the coaching that he was doing. It's like the energy that he kind of gave off to me. It reminded me of me when like I was a kid and me and him would go to amateur tournaments and like, he just so, like, amped up and like, ready and like, it kind of brought on to me and it kind of got me like, amped up as him, like, okay, I gotta stand on business for my grandfather. I got to. I don't got no choice.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, wow.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But he's definitely a great coach.

[Joe Rogan]

So family's a big thing for you?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, family is everything for me. Like, I enjoy spending time with my family. Like, I'm not like a lot of these boxers. Like, with all due respect to them, they like the fame, the. All that kind of stuff. The cars, the. I'm more so like, I get a big check, I want to go on vacay with my family or go chill with my family. And I don't like doing stuff. Like, I enjoy spending time with my daughter.

[Joe Rogan]

That's great.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Like, I'm different. I'm not like them guys.

[Joe Rogan]

That's so smart. It's so smart because all that other shit just drains your bank account, distracts you from your goals, gets in the way of things.

[Shakur Stevenson]

It's like when I was a kid, I used to want the fame. I used to be like, oh, I wanna be famous. I want everybody to know me. But it's like once you get it, it's like, ah, I don't like this. I don't like this. Like, you go places, people pulling they phones out and like, it's weird. They trying to record you. Like, bro, why are you? I'm just a regular person. Like, that's how I feel. Like everybody bleeds. We all the same. We all human, right? So I kind of move with that kind of thought process. And I feel like a lot of people don't move with that. Like, especially people in my position.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, you can get inflated, your head can get screwy. It's like you gotta balance two things at the same time. One, you are the elite of the elite. You are a world champion and one of the pound for pound best to ever do it. And then on top of that, you're just a human being.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

And we're all just human beings. But what we like, what people love about watching championship caliber fighters and championship performances in any sport is watching just a regular human do something extraordinary and that gives us inspiration. Like, when I watch a great fight, I feel better for the rest of the day. Like when I go to bed, I feel great. Like, I watched that fight, I went to bed, I was like, woo. I felt great. I text Josh right after. Right, right after. It was like right after it was happen in. And that's how we got in touch. Josh Dubin, shout out to Josh. But I remember, I'm like, dude, that was extraordinary. And then next thing you know, we're on the phone.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Definitely was a great, great night. Great night of boxing. I enjoyed it. I'm just glad to be here. Like, all glory to God. I'm glad to be here. I've been here. Like, I've been here. I've been telling people like, I'm the best. I'm better than these guys.

[Joe Rogan]

You have. But you needed that breakout.

[Shakur Stevenson]

You're right.

[Joe Rogan]

You needed that breakout. And the problem is everybody knew you were so good. It was hard to get someone to sign up for that breakout performance. Because for a breakout performance, you need another dude who's had breakout performances that everybody respects and knows. Like Tiafimo.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, that's why that was my main reason in fighting. I'm telling you. I watched him in Times Square. I looked, I said, we fighting him? Yeah, we fighting him. I want to fight him. He looked really good. He looked really good.

[Joe Rogan]

That Times Square card was weird.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He was the best fighter on the

[Joe Rogan]

car 100, no question. It looked like everybody was playing it safe on that card.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, it did. It did.

[Joe Rogan]

Like Devin Haney. The Devin Haney fight was odd.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I learned what I learned from that card. I felt like, I felt like them fighters didn't have enough adrenaline pumping. Like, I feel like Ryan, I know when he got in the ring, his adrenaline couldn't been like too high because it was like sparring. Like, it was like not a lot of people there. It wasn't like that much pressure. You could hear everything somebody is saying. I know Ryan heard me all night. Like, he had to hear me. I was cheering him on, like, telling him, like, man, throw the hook, throw the hook, throw the hook.

[Joe Rogan]

But that was when he fought Rollie, right? Yeah, yeah. That was a wake up call too. Like, that was another fight where people did not expect Rowley to beat Ryan.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I'd be throwing off. I didn't expect it either. That was one of the fights where I kind of like vouch for Ryan. I'm like, man, he got skills. He's a Skillful fighter. Then he got in there. I don't know what he was doing. Like, I didn't understand what was happening.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, it's one of them things where he has the fight with Devin. He beats Devin, gets popped, you know, for whatever he was on Austerene. And then there's like, he's got a long time off. There's a lot of people mad at him. There's a lot of people, you know, which is a such an unfortunate thing if you think about his performance against Devin, because that was incredible. Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But the problem is he got caught.

[Joe Rogan]

He got caught. Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

So, like, I don't know, like, for me personally, if you got caught, it's like, I can't really me. I can't give you the credit for that.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I don't. I don't give him credit for that. They. That night with Devin.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, but steroids don't help you land punches. They help you recover in training. They help you train a little harder. They might give you a little bit more power. But that left hook was on point.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, but that little bit of more power probably wasn't enough to hurt Devin. Because if you really watch the fight and pay attention to the fight and people might not agree with me on this, but I feel like Devin was winning. The moments that was quiet, like when people's not really, ah. Devin is winning most of the, like, boxing match. Other. But the moments where Ryan was so loud and like, everybody got to see him get hurt and knocked down to where, like, I just feel like Devin, if he didn't get dropped by them punches, he could have won that fight.

[Joe Rogan]

But he did get dropped. That's the problem. And also.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But what if the Oster ring was helping his power?

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, was his last fight against Delgado, who was his last opponent?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Who?

[Joe Rogan]

Ryan? Who's the guy?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Mario Barrios.

[Joe Rogan]

Barrios. That's right. Barrios is a guy that was like tailor made for a guy like Ryan. Like, he's a tough dude, he's very durable, takes a good shot, but he's not that fast. And Ryan was super fast in that fight. Yeah, he looked real good.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, he looked good. He looked good.

[Joe Rogan]

Real good in that fight.

[Shakur Stevenson]

And it wasn't just like. Because people think when I'm saying, like, oh, well, you don't know whether he's cheating or not. I'm not saying that in the aspect of his boxing skills. Like, he clearly got boxing skills. Like, you can clearly see Ryan know how to move his feet. He know how to keep his distance. Use his long length, he can clearly box. I've been saying this for years, so,

[Joe Rogan]

yeah, he boxes very well. And also he showed that he has a right hand too.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, that was surprising.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

And he used it like, the whole night. Like, he just kept throwing it. So that was very surprising.

[Joe Rogan]

But I mean, of course, he. If you want to be a complete fighter, he had to develop a right hand and start using it more because that left hook is just world class.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. And he was not only, like, throwing it straight, he was throwing it around the guard. That was kind of like.

[Joe Rogan]

It was beautiful.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, it was nice.

[Joe Rogan]

It was a beautiful performance for him. Has there been any talk about you two matching up?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But like I said, everything gotta make sense. Like, people don't understand that I walk around in my 40s, so if I'm walking around in my 40s, I don't think, like, me going to 147, like, when I fight at 147, I think that would be my last weight class, like, in my career. Like, I don't see myself going past 147 ever. But I'm 28 right now. I got a long way to go, so. So I don't plan on moving to 47 no time soon. So if the fight happens at whatever weight class that I say, then I'm cool with it.

[Joe Rogan]

Can he make 40 again?

[Shakur Stevenson]

He said he could. He the one who came out and said, like, let's fight at 140. He said that. So if he said that, it's like, okay, you could make the weight, then let's do it.

[Joe Rogan]

What weight was the Javante fight? Was that 140?

[Shakur Stevenson]

That fight was at 136.

[Joe Rogan]

That's right. And then he gave him a rehydration clause too.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. £10. Yup.

[Joe Rogan]

Very smart. Very smart. Very smart, right?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I mean, yeah, it was in that situation, but I mean, I just felt like with the rehydration clause at that time, when you already bringing somebody down to, like, a weight class that they haven't fought in years, it's like, you could have not put the rehydration clause. Like, it wasn't necessary at that point in time.

[Joe Rogan]

I think it was necessary. I think it helped a lot.

[Shakur Stevenson]

It did.

[Joe Rogan]

It helped a lot. If you. If you can only rehydrate £10 and you know he's way bigger than that. Ryan's a big guy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He looked weak on fight night. Like, he looked.

[Joe Rogan]

He didn't look weak, but I guess those dollars that. That paycheck was just Too tempting.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. I didn't want to fight. Jeff understood that move. I never understood it, because if I'm Ryan Garcia and I got a big name in the sport and all of that kind of stuff, why would I accept everything into somebody else's favor?

[Joe Rogan]

I think because that's the only way he'd get the fight, you know?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Well.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, this is the same thing when Canelo fought Floyd, right? Floyd made him go down to 152, remember?

[Shakur Stevenson]

But it was no rehydration clause, was it? Nope.

[Joe Rogan]

No.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Even if there's not, Floyd never rehydration clause, nobody.

[Joe Rogan]

But that's good. But if you make a guy get down to 152, even if you give him a rehydration clause, like, that's gonna drain something out of your tank.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But is it right? Because my question is, wasn't they fighting at 154? Wasn't Canelo fighting at 154?

[Joe Rogan]

Normally, yeah, but it was a struggle. But you know, that last. You're not a big weight cutter. But if you were, that last two pounds is death.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Oh, for sure.

[Joe Rogan]

When you're already drained out because he was a big guy for 154. And to drain out and get all the way down to 152, that had to be hard. He didn't look the same on fight day.

[Shakur Stevenson]

You don't think so?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I think Floyd was just a virtuoso that night. I mean, Floyd. I don't think Floyd looks so good that night.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I don't think if he was 154, 160, I don't think he was being Floyd.

[Joe Rogan]

I think you're probably right. But I also think Floyd was smart to get him to. Down to 152.

[Shakur Stevenson]

For sure. The business.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. It's like every angle you can get, every advantage you can get is a good one. I do agree with you about the rehydration clause. Like, get out of here with that.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But we gotta understand, too, right? Cause I get Floyd in that. Instincts. If a guy is gonna blow up to. Let's say what we'll just do. Me and Ryan Garcia, for example, okay? I'm gonna blow up, like 148. He's gonna blow up 168 to 170. Now it's like you in a ring with somebody that is like. Like 20 pounds bigger than you. And Floyd still allowed Canelo to get big. Cause he got big after getting down to 152. So it's like, I kind of feel it In a way, like I understand it now, the rehydration clause is kind of crazy, but I will only do a rehydration clause for fighters if I go up to 147 pounds. Cause I'm not a 147 pounder. So why would I fight at their weight class where they're comfortable and just make it easy for them? Like, I don't.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, the thing about a fighter like you is it's just difficult to find big names. I mean, if Gervonta fights again, that's a, that's a big fight. If you. But that would probably be at 135, which you could probably still make. Easy, right?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Easy, yeah, no problem.

[Joe Rogan]

So you have fights at 135, one fight and fights at 140. But it's just going to be hard to get someone to step up that is going to be that big pay per view selling fight.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, that's the problem. That is the problem.

[Joe Rogan]

You're too good. That's the problem. You're too good.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Somebody told me that before I went pro before they was like, you gonna have a hard time in the pros, I'm telling you. Yeah, but I understand it now.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you remember your first pro fight? You remember what it felt like?

[Shakur Stevenson]

It felt like a whole new experience.

[Joe Rogan]

Really?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

How so?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I've been. When I was in the amateurs, guys wasn't as like dirty as the professionals. Like, you don't get introduced into dirty boxing until you turn professional.

[Joe Rogan]

Didn't you get headbutted in your first fight?

[Shakur Stevenson]

He headbutted me. And that's what kind of on purpose, right? Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Not an accidental headbutt.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That's what kind of make me say, okay, I understand. This is a whole different atmosphere. It's not the same amateur and the pros and a lot of guys from the amateurs don't adjust to the pros as well as I did, so.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's all about styles, right? Like there's some guys who have styles that are just much better for point fighting and fighting.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Nah, it's actually you got to develop a lot of things like punch placement. Like punching hard is really a real thing in the pros. Like you got to have something to make somebody respect you. That's why when I hear people say like, I got pillow hands, I'm like, y' all clearly must not be watching.

[Joe Rogan]

Who's saying that?

[Shakur Stevenson]

It'd be a lot of people, they say, I got pillow hands.

[Joe Rogan]

No, you just fight smart.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I don't understand it because it's like if I had pillow hands, Right. Why guys don't just go in there and just knock me out. Like if I'm fighting somebody with pillow hands, I'm just gonna put my, my shield up and just swing for the fences. Cause they can't hurt me, like.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I don't understand why nobody won't do that if I got pillow hands.

[Joe Rogan]

You don't have pillow hands. It's nonsense talk. What you have is a boxing intelligence where you know when to hit full blast and when to just touch them up and crack them a little bit. And the accumulation of blows, the frustration, the mental confusion that a fighter gets when they can't hit you and you can hit them. And then you start ramping it up and then you start tuning them up.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, it's people that, the people that are saying that just don't understand what you're doing.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, for sure.

[Joe Rogan]

What you're doing is just perfect. You're fighting intelligent. Yeah. And that's what I love. I love watching a guy just outbox the out of somebody. I love it. Like I said that, that like you were doing this like half speed jab and then from right there and you could tell Tio was like, Jesus Christ. You could tell he was confused. It was so fast.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Too fast.

[Joe Rogan]

It was so fast. But that accumulation of blows over time and his corner, it was crazy. Did you listen to the fight? Like, did you go back and watch it?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I went back and watched it.

[Joe Rogan]

His corner's like, you gotta hit him. Like, what?

[Shakur Stevenson]

It's so crazy though. Cause like, what I see with his corner is like, he been doing this. Like his dad been getting in the ring and giving him numb type of instructions. But Tio has been always so good to where that the instructions he giving them really does not matter because he's in control. He's winning these fights. He's doing what he's supposed to do. But that night he did need.

[Joe Rogan]

He needed a real coach.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He needed something better than that.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, well, not that his dad's not a real coach, but he needed some tactical advice. He needed some instruction on what this guy's doing to you. And you got to switch it up entirely. You got to do something that confuses you.

[Shakur Stevenson]

His dad is used to like something different. That's why he went in there and said, like, where's your power, bro? He's used to Tio's power showing up and the amazing things that Tio does in the boxing ring. He's used to that. But whenever you going against somebody who's on a different level. Also, you gotta be well prepared within like a game plan. Yeah, all that kind of stuff. And I didn't see no game plan.

[Joe Rogan]

Did you. Did you know anybody that was his camp or ask anybody after the fight, like, what was his game plan? What did he think was gonna be different?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Nah, I didn't actually. I just.

[Joe Rogan]

I'd be interested to know that.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I do too. But I did run into him after the fight. I ran into Tio in the back.

[Joe Rogan]

So was it cool?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, it was cool. It was actually a good conversation. I felt bad that he was by himself. His manager kind of cleaned it up. But during the moment that I seen him in the back, he was by himself. So I didn't like that, man. I didn't like that.

[Joe Rogan]

No, that's a bummer.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, but I mean, they said they was with him all night, so respect to them.

[Joe Rogan]

So maybe he just. You just caught him in a moment when he was alone. Yeah. That's the last thing you want to see is a dude who gets abandoned after a loss, like, oh my God. And then you got to go back to camp with those assholes.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I don't even like how the sport is kind of treating him now. Like everybody acts like he just terrible fighter, but.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that's crazy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I don't understand it when you gotta give him respect. Like, this dude actually stepped up and fought a guy that nobody else wants to fight. So he did it. He got in the ring and laid it on the line. It didn't go his way, but he did, he tried.

[Joe Rogan]

The thing is, I don't know if that guy's ever gonna separate from his father. You know, I don't know if that guy ever is gonna bring in another world class trainer that maybe would be able to recognize some things that he's doing that he can improve upon.

[Shakur Stevenson]

You know what's so crazy? During the fight, he had a coach in his corner, and I know the coach I own, he's from Florida. I want to say his coach was telling him some good advice. I don't think he heard him or was listening to him, but he was telling him some good advice. Really? Yeah. I don't want to say what the advice is because I got future opponents, I gotta make sure.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, someone could go back and listen.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. I can't tell what the advice was, but he was giving him some good advice.

[Joe Rogan]

Interesting. Yeah, it's hard. Those father son teams, there's always. There's a lot of conflict with those.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. Because I done watched it over the years. I feel like dads like stay on top of they fighter and they like, they make it less fun. And I feel like that's why I think my granddad is one of the best coaches because he allowed me to love the sport of boxing myself. Like when I had my football games and my pop won the games, he came to my game, watched them, cheered on, supporting me. But soon as I lost, I'm on the field crying. I'm like, oh. He comes up to me, he say, you know, in boxing, you only could lose because of yourself. And I'm looking, I'm like, what he mean by? I'm like, oh, that is true. Cause like you're the one in a boxing ring doing the boxing. And when I lost that football game, he was basically trying to say it was my coach fault. So like he just allowed me to choose boxing though. Like he, he always supported me when I did other things. But he kinda like, he ain't just stay on top of me, like hound me with it, like, right. He just took me to the gym.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, you gotta let a young man become his own man.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, he allowed me to choose it. And I think fathers in the sport don't allow they sons to choose it too. Like they're choosing it for them.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. And a lot of them are overbearing in the corner.

[Shakur Stevenson]

It becomes a problem and they kind of be. Coaches should listen to what I'm about to say. Father coaches, there has to be a difference between a father and a coach. So when you're coaching your son, you have to be a coach in the boxing ring instead of the father. Cause when you're the father, they gonna reciprocate things wrong. And I feel like with coaches when you coaching, they can hear you a lot better.

[Joe Rogan]

This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Are you a fraud paying American? Well, it's a fact that one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. With LifeLock identity theft protection though, if your identity is stolen, they fix it, guaranteed and you get your money back. Last year the IRS flagged over $16 billion in refunds for identity fraud. That's billions of dollars that could come from your salary, overtime or second job gone. And who pays for that? The fraud paying Americans. But this year you don't need to stay a victim. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats that you could easily miss on your own. And if your information does Fall in the wrong hands. Only LifeLock has US based restoration specialists who are backed by the million dollar protection package. Because this tax season, no one should claim to be a fraud paying American. Visit lifelock.com jre and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail] jre terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. I loved Peaky Blinders. It is one of my absolute favorite shows of all time. I binge watched the entire season, all the seasons. So when I found out that Netflix was dropping a Peaky Blinders film, I was very excited. Tommy Shelby, played by the Academy Award winning Killian Murphy, of course, must face his own demons and choose whether to confront his legacy or burn it to the ground. It's gritty, it's grimy, it's got that epic gangster edge we've been hooked on for six seasons. Trust me, you won't want to miss this. Peaky Blinders the Immortal man is in select theaters March 6th and on Netflix March 20th. Rated R. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's also the relationship with the father and the son where the father wants a son to listen to him. Listen to me. I'm your father. You go out, you're going to do this, you know, off of me.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Fuck off me, dad.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Are you. You doing more harm to your son than.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Doing good for himself?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, especially not giving him technical advice. Yeah. Like that is where he needed real technical advice.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because there was a lot of shit you were doing that he just did not have an answer for.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He didn't understand. Yeah, he didn't understand. He didn't clean up his bad habits. And that's the thing with these fighters. A lot of them got bad habits and things that they do. And I'm going to expose lose it so.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I mean, the environment that you came up in and having a guy like Terence and having other elite fighters that you train with all the time, that's so important, it's so invaluable because all that gets exposed in the gym and it does.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That's where you work on it at.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That's what you work on. If you ain't work on it in the gym on fight night is going to be exposed.

[Joe Rogan]

There's no if and or buts about it.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

How important do you think an amateur career is? Like, do you think a guy like Lomachenko maybe would have been an even better boxer if he didn't have so many amateur fights and went into the pros at an earlier age.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I think an amateur career is important because you gotta have the experience. But I done seen different to where like guys have developed a lot more in the gym. Like, I done seen guys stay in the gym, not go to tournaments, and they'll get better and better and then out of nowhere they'll go to one tournament and then you'll be like, who the fuck is this guy?

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Where did he come from? How did he get so good? And I think like developing in the gym is like the biggest thing, like who you sparring, who you training with. All of that stuff really matters the most. The amateur experience is cool, like, oh, Lomachenko. But if Lomachenko had different things around him in the gym, I feel like he probably would have been a better fighter.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's also already good with Lomachenko. It's so crazy because he really should have been fighting at 126. I mean, he really was never a 140 pound fighter.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

He's a small guy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I don't understand that. I didn't understand that. Cause I think it kind of tarnished his career in a way to where like the way people look at him, people don't look at him the same as they should because he was really, really good. But he was at a weight class that he really wasn't supposed to be at. So of course you're going to have like a harder time with them bigger guys.

[Joe Rogan]

Right? Like Tio.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, like Tio.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that was a perfect example. Tio was huge in that fight.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

He looks so much bigger than Lomachenko and just so dangerous that it like Lomachenko's strategy up because, you know, you got missiles coming at you from a giant dude. I mean, Tio's stacked.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And so you gotta think like, for those guys, I guess it's just about chasing the multiple world titles and the bigger money at the higher weight classes.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, that's what with Lomachenko though. He act like he wasn't really like super money hungry. So I never really understood. Seemed like he's maybe. Yeah, you right about the. He was chasing Undisputed.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, undisputed in world titles. I felt like he got robbed in the Devin Haney fight though. Do you think that to this day?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I do think.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I scored the fight for Lomachenko.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I did too. I watched it three times in a row because I was like, what am I getting wrong here? Am I getting this wrong before I start talking about it?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And I was like, no, no, Lomachenko should have won.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. I thought Lomachenko won.

[Joe Rogan]

That was one of those where I was like, ooh. And I think that fight fucked with Devin Haney's head a little bit. Like, was. That makes you feel like shit? When you win a fight and everybody thinks that you lost the fight and you got like. Like, then you have to carry that around with you everywhere. Everybody, like, Lomachenko beat you. You're like, no, he didn't.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. It's a mental battle.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And then you got to get it back.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I think in that fight, he really wasn't even fighting the best version of Devin, because Devin was fighting at a weight class he really shouldn't have been at.

[Joe Rogan]

What was that fight at? Was that 135? Yeah. I think Devin should have been at

[Shakur Stevenson]

140 at that time. Yeah, he should have been at 140. He's too big for 35.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's. It's interesting, man. That balance of. We're all up in MMA because MMA, this. There's too few weight classes. Yeah. And so there's giant gaps, like, huge gaps, like, at 185 to 205, you know, 155 to 170, those. There's no weight classes in between. I mean, that's nuts.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. That's insane.

[Joe Rogan]

I agree.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That means it's guys that's, like, little fighting bigger guys. Because it ain't enough weight classes for them to be in. So that sounds crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

It's stupid. And it's the one major complaint that I've had with the UFC for a decade. I was like, we need way more weight classes.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And they. They're like, no, we're. Keep it pure. These are the champs. It's only eight champs. Like, yeah. That's crazy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I need to start watching the ufc.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, it's fun. There's one this weekend in Vegas, if you're around.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I'm gonna watch some of it.

[Joe Rogan]

It's a good one.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I'm gonna watch it because I'm. I'm, like, lost. I'm not really in tune with a lot of the UFC guys. And the UFC people be kind of mad at me when I say boxing is better, but it's my sport.

[Joe Rogan]

Of course you're gonna think it's better. It's what your life is based around. Of course. And if you talk to Max Holloway, he's gonna say, MMA is better.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Exactly. And they got good explanations. Like, I understand what they saying you could do. It's more like, skills you gotta learn in mma. But but for me, I just feel like boxing, like the skill level and the talent, for me, I like better.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, there is no question. The skill level and the talent when it comes to punching is way better in boxing. You see some sloppy that people do in MMA with boxing, but you also have to think they're thinking about takedowns, they're thinking about getting kicked, they're thinking about their calves getting kicked out from under them, their legs getting kicked, the body getting kicked, messing up.

[Shakur Stevenson]

They punching, huh?

[Joe Rogan]

Everything. Knees, elbows. And then there's stuff that you do in boxing that you can't do in MMA because, like, your leg's exposed, you know, like there's certain positions that you, you would throw punches in that a guy would just calf kick you and you get hit with one of those and you're like, oh, shit. And all of a sudden your calf is numb and you're not moving good and your ankle doesn't work. Yeah, it's terrible. But that's the beauty of that sport is that it's so diverse. But the beauty of boxing is that it's so concentrated on hand techniques that the boxing techniques in boxing are far superior than what you're going to see in mma. You see a few guys in MMA that could make it as pro boxers, but you don't see your level or, you know, or they can't be elite level. No, there's no way you can.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Impossible. No, you ain't been doing it for long enough.

[Joe Rogan]

Just like you don't see these elite MMA fighters that could compete in Jiu Jitsu tournaments and win world champions championships. It's very, very rare. They used to. The only way that happens is if they were a world champion in Jiu Jitsu before they got into MMA and they still have those skills at a very, very high level.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Then some of those guys can kind of compete in world class levels.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But what you, what would you say is like the best skill in like the mma?

[Joe Rogan]

Wrestling?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Wrestling. I already knew it before I asked,

[Joe Rogan]

because wrestlers can take everybody down. And if you get taken down, you're fine.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I want to learn how to wrestle.

[Joe Rogan]

It's a great. Well, Terrence, to show you how. Terrence. Terrence is like one of the only boxers that are like, if that guy fought in mma, he could do very well. He would. He would do very well.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Watched him wrestle. An actual, like USA team wrestler. And he was kind of.

[Joe Rogan]

He can wrestle.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, he was kind of. He was good. He was good. He wasn't getting.

[Joe Rogan]

He's not lost.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, he knows what he's doing. And look, his son just won a state title.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, for sure. He's the truth.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I want to learn how to wrestle, though.

[Joe Rogan]

It's a good thing to know. It's a good thing because it's a humbling thing.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I feel like they the strongest people.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Like, I feel like when they come to strength, like real strength. Yeah, Their bodies are like stronger than most.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, it's a different thing when they get ahold of you. You feel like a child. Yeah, you just get rag dolled. You're like, this is embarrassing, you know, that's the most important skill, I feel. But. But every fight starts standing up, you know, every round starts standing up, you know, at the beginning of the round you're standing up again. So that guy's got to take you down again. And in that transition. Yeah, that's when you can catch someone.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I figured that.

[Joe Rogan]

Look, there's elite fighters that aren't great wrestlers in mma, like Alex Pereira, who's a two division world champion, but he's just a destructive kickboxer. He's such a terrifying kickboxer.

[Shakur Stevenson]

What is Jon Jones?

[Joe Rogan]

Jon Jones a wrestler?

[Shakur Stevenson]

He a wrestler?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, he's an everything fighter. He could do everything, but he started out his career as a wrestler.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I like him.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, he's the best ever. Yeah, the best ever. He's the best ever because he's the smartest of all of them. I mean, he's that guy studded.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That's why I liked him. That's exactly why I like him. I seen a video of him saying, like he watches everything, like from top to bottom. He gonna watch your interviews. He gonna watch. Oh, yeah, every single thing until he find a weakness.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That's why I like him.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, he gets inside their head. He knows every tendency they do. He sets traps, he does everything. It's funny. Daniel Cormier, who I love to death, is a great friend of mine. When he fought Jon Jones, they were talking before the fight about tendencies. And Daniel's like, oh, I know what you think I'm gonna do. You think I'm gonna lean towards the right and you're gonna kick me in the head. And Jon did exactly that in the fight. It was so crazy when he landed it. Look, I love both of those guys, but Dan, Daniel, a close friend. And so we landed that head kick. I was like, no, you know, and I'm doing commentary. So I. I've got to like, yeah, I've got to be balanced. And you Know, and I do love both of those guys, but I was like, damn, he did exactly what he said he was going to do.

[Shakur Stevenson]

You said it on the commentary.

[Joe Rogan]

No, I didn't say it on the commentary. I don't want to call it out there, but in, in the pre fight, they were talking to each other and one of the things, like, you have some tendencies, Daniel, and I'm going to exploit those tendencies. He was like, oh, you mean how I dip to the right when I go?

[Shakur Stevenson]

And he did exactly that.

[Joe Rogan]

He got him with that head kick. I was like, no.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Oh, wow.

[Joe Rogan]

But look, that's the goat. That's the guy, man. He's the guy. He's the guy who always figures out a way to win. He figures it out.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I heard it was somebody that he was supposed to fight, though, that, that wanted to fight him. It's like somebody really good.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, Tom Aspinall.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, that's what I mean.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Well, well, see, the thing with that is, you know, Jon is at the stage of his career where he's like, I want to fight legends and I want to fight fights that are like big fights against big names that matter. Tom Aspinall carried a high risk. He wasn't a very well known fighter, even though he's the heavyweight champion. And he was really the heavyweight champion because Jon resigned the title. Right. So he was the interim heavyweight champion. So they had a, like an interim title and John was the undisputed heavyweight champion and they were supposed to fight and they, they didn't make that happen. But now, you know, after that fight, John is still trying to figure out if he's going to fight again, if he's going to fight again. Maybe he will fight because there's a big White House card in.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I heard about that.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And the White House card is a big one. And if that happens, that it won't be Aspinall, probably because Aspinall just went through eye surgery. Yeah, two different eye surgeries. He got poked in the eyes in his fight.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Aren't you like involved in the usc?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah, I'm the commentator.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm one of the commentators.

[Shakur Stevenson]

So are you gonna be doing like zoo for boxing too?

[Joe Rogan]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's Kellerman Andre Ward. You know, they do a great job over there. I'll definitely watch some of those fights though. I think it's interesting. It's. Look, I think it's good to have that are competing to get the fighters because then the fighters get more money.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Money, yes.

[Joe Rogan]

And I Think MMA could use that, too. Unfortunately, the UFC is the big name in mma, and mma, unlike boxing, is all about the ufc. In boxing, it's all about who's the champ. Nobody gives a if it's Golden Boy or Bob Arum. Nobody gives a who the promoter is. It's like, who is the fighter that's fighting? Is it Triple G versus Canelo? Is it? Who is. Who are the fighters?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And unfortunately, with mma, it's not that. It's like, if you are an excellent fighter, but you fight for the pfl. Nobody knows. Nobody knows. Yeah, there's a small audience of hardcore people that pay attention.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I fight for the pfl. Clarissa, huh?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, she fought for the pfl. She's crazy. That lady's wild.

[Shakur Stevenson]

She's the best.

[Joe Rogan]

She's wild. Oh, she's the best. She's the best. She's the best.

[Shakur Stevenson]

There's nobody better.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, she's the heavyweight champ now.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Now.

[Joe Rogan]

It's crazy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I. I just wish she was kind of smaller. So, like, some of the smaller girls who really think that they can be her, right, can see, like, there's levels, man. Yeah, she's the goat.

[Joe Rogan]

She is the goat. But she's. She's not getting. I mean, as much as the love that she does get, she's not getting what she deserves, and it's just because there's just not a lot of competition.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I don't understand it. I don't understand it. It. Two Olympic gold medals, undisputed several times in the sport. I just don't get it.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's just women's boxing does not have the same level of respect and appreciation that men's boxing does, unfortunately.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Well, Clarissa, I respect and appreciate you, and you are my goat, so.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I. I do as well. I've talked a lot about sleep optimization and circadian rhythm. Right. Well, light is the biggest driver of your body clock. When the signal gets messed up, your sleep, mood, energy, all of it gets wrecked. So having the right window treatments, that's actually crucial for controlling light and making sure your home works with your biology instead of against it. That's why blinds.com completely revolutionized the custom window treatment space. You want to do it yourself? Cool. Do your thing. You want a pro to handle measuring, installation, all of it. They've got you covered. It's all online, so you can shop whenever you want, but you still get access to real design professionals and free samples sent right to your door. Blinds.com has been doing this for 30 years, and they back everything with a 100 satisfaction guarantee. So you're not just guessing and hoping it works out. You're ordering with confidence. Right now, you can get an exclusive 40 off your entire order. Just go to blinds.com and use the promo code ROGAN40 at checkout. Limited time offer. Rules and restrictions apply. This episode is brought to you by Tommy John. A lot of people are trying to feel better day to day. Clearer heads, better routines, just making small changes that actually improve how you feel. One thing people don't really think about is comfort. If your underwear isn't right, you're adjusting all day. You don't even realize how much that pulls at your attention. I love Tommy John because their stuff is very comfortable. So comfortable you barely feel it. No adjusting, no chafing, no riding up, up. You honestly just kind of forget you're even wearing it. And when those little annoyances disappear, you're not distracted. They're briefs. Boxer briefs and undershirts move with you. They're super lightweight and they hold up whether you're working, traveling, or just hanging out. It's one of those small upgrades that actually makes a noticeable difference every single day. Look, with over 30 million pairs sold, there are thousands of people wearing Tommy John right now who are way more comfortable than you. Don't settle. Upgrade. I upgraded my day with Tommy John and you should, too. Go to TommyJohn.com Rogan right now and experience comfort perfected. Save 25 off your first order with code ROGAN. That's TommyJohn.com Rogan I've had her on. She's awesome. I've had her on the podcast. I'm a big fan of her, and I'm just the only one that had the courage to fight in mma. I mean, that was crazy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

She's tough, and she really did, like, not bad, but she was fighting against lesser competition, so.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But she definitely was, like, you could tell she was trying.

[Joe Rogan]

She would. She had to learn the grappling from a beginner's perspective.

[Shakur Stevenson]

She was breaking out of them like chokos. They was getting hurt. It's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

She knows how to win, you know, and that's. Sometimes that's enough, you know, at that high a level, as elite a level as she is. But I think she's rightly just concentrating on boxing because I think she realizes that to. To be a world champion in mma, she kind of have to abandon boxing. Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

For sure.

[Joe Rogan]

And it would be a long process journey.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And she'd probably have to absorb a couple more losses and.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, it ain't really worth it.

[Joe Rogan]

These girls up in boxing, and I

[Shakur Stevenson]

know she don't like losing, so.

[Joe Rogan]

No, not at all. She's fun. She's a fun fighter to watch, though. If anybody can get people to pay attention to women's boxing, it's Claressa.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yes. Cause she's exciting. I don't see. That's why I don't understand. I don't get it. I don't get it. She deserve all her flowers. She's the truth. And I never seen nobody. No female as good as her ever in my life.

[Joe Rogan]

No, she's probably the greatest of all time. I think everybody would agree with. You know, you've had a few. There's a few great fighters over the years that have been female fighters, but she's the real standout.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, yeah, no question.

[Joe Rogan]

It's just unfortunately, that sport. I mean, there's not a lot of women out there that want to get punched in the face. If you had a room full of a thousand women, there might be like one or two. Like, I'll try that. You know what I mean?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Now, I think it's some solid female fighters in the sport of boxing.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, there are, there are, but not in comparison the numbers in men. Men's boxing is just this. You know, a lot of kids grow up, they want to be a boxer.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, for sure.

[Joe Rogan]

Not a lot of women are like, let me put the doll down and fuck some chick up. That's an unusual mindset.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, it is.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, it's just, you know, it is what it is. It's. It's. We're fortunate to be able to have her, though, like, because, like, if there's anybody that's going to elevate the sport and bring in new fighters is gonna be someone who is the really the only person in the sport that gets a tremendous amount of attention as a woman.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, yeah. She. She done became a superstar, so. Yeah, it's definitely interesting seeing her in, like, them big arenas and having all the people who walk out with her, and it's amazing to see. So I'm enjoying her process, and I'm glad that I'm here to witness it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, me too. Yeah, I mean. But. But, you know, other than her in the past, there haven't been enough, like, women that have, like, really, you know, Christy Martin, Leila Ali. And there's, like, a few that, like Ann Wolf. And Wolf was a beast.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I like her.

[Joe Rogan]

She was one of the few that could flatline a chick with one shot, too.

[Shakur Stevenson]

She was the truth.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah, And a great trainer, too.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

When she was training Kirkland. Yeah, bro. They. They showed those videos of what she was putting him through and, you know, when he fought Canelo, he didn't have her in his corner.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I was just about to say the fights that he lost, he kind of did not have her, huh?

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly. And the fights, he was a fucking general, dude. She was a general. She. She put him through some brutal shit, but that those were the fights that he was ultra prepared.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. You know, I think that's the, like, people don't realize. I. I feel like the best coaches in the sport of boxing are the people that kind of box.

[Joe Rogan]

I bet. Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Like Robert Garcia. I think he's the truth as a coach.

[Joe Rogan]

Sure.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Bomac. Bomac. Another fighter.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Buddy McGirt.

[Joe Rogan]

Buddy McGurt. Yep. Oh, he was a great fighter.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. I just feel like the coaches that's been in there is kind of like they know.

[Joe Rogan]

Sure. Yeah. I think it helps a lot. I mean, there's a few guys like Emmanuel Stewart. Did he have an amateur background?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I think so, yeah. I'm not sure. I think so, though. I think so.

[Joe Rogan]

Emmanuel just had a brilliant mind for the sport.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I like the way he talked too. I'll be watching some of his old videos. Yeah, he actually, it was something that I was doing in my fight for this fight, but I watched a video of him and he said, fighters over train, like they're over trained. And when I seen it, he started explaining the reasons why, you know, that they over training. And I seen it, I started cutting back on some. Some of the things that I'm doing, I'm like, man, I don't want to over train and don't come out at my best.

[Joe Rogan]

Amateur boxing career, he compiled a record of 94 wins, three losses in the Amateur, including winning the 1963 National Golden Gloves tournament in the bantamweight division. Wow. Bantamweight. That's crazy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I mean, he was small.

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy. But man, what he did with a cronk gym, he also had this gym, like cranked up. He made it like 98 degrees in there all the time. So everybody was like training in the heat.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, he had a lot of boxers that was like top level boxers in there, so they was pushing each other to get better. So. Yeah, that's the cheat code right there.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, it is the cheat code, right? Iron sharpens iron.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. You can't be the best boxer in your gym and have everybody else that's way below you and really get to that world class level.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Impossible. It's impossible. You gotta bring in guys that's on a high level. And honestly, for me, I keep like the young kids that's like up and coming. Like my little cousin, he's a great boxer and he's up and coming. And I just was in the gym with him yesterday and played sparring with him. And I keep a lot of good boxers around me. A lot of good boxers. There's another kid, Emmanuel chance, he's like 19 years old. And like they are so skillful right now to where like when I'm around them, I'm still picking up things from them and they probably don't even know it, but I'm definitely. I got my notepad out everywhere I go.

[Joe Rogan]

That's so important. Right.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Mentally, it's locked in here. Like I'm watching and studying.

[Joe Rogan]

So everybody does everything different.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, and you can just pick up little things here and there from what they do and start incorporating that.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yep. People don't know. Right before the fight with Teo, it was. I'm gonna tell you a fight that I was watching. Okay. I'm gonna give out a little secret. It was a 8 year old kid, Tremaine Williams. He fought a guy named Dusty Harrison. And like they literally 8 years old. But I liked the way Tremaine was fighting in that fight. He was using his jab and he was the shorter fighter, but he was keeping his range and distance. And I was literally watching an 8 year old kid fight right before the biggest fight of my life.

[Joe Rogan]

That's amazing.

[Shakur Stevenson]

And you were studying.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow, that's. That's great. That's such a great mindset. Yeah, I mean, that's how you, that's how you really grow and learn. You could absorb something from everybody.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, you can learn from anywhere.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, I was, I was watching an interview with you once where you're talking about Terrence and you said you really learn more watching Terrence than being in there.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, Terrence, I still feel that way. Like, I feel like I, I learn more from like seeing the things he's doing than like, like being in the ring with him. Now when we in the ring, it's always chess, like we having chess matches. But when I'm watching, I could see some of the things he's doing and I'm like, damn, this dude is just different. Like, I knew before the Spence fight what was happening. I knew before the Canelo fight what was happening. Like, even when I was in the locker room, I'm in the locker Room. I'm looking at him call my Batman. I'm like, yo, put me some more money in. I know what time it is. Is no lie, though.

[Joe Rogan]

But watching him in the gym, you got to see hard training sessions. You got to see when he looked great. You got to see bad days in the gym. You got to see how he recovered, how he came back. Yep.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He. Like I said, he's one of the most competitive human beings I ever met. So I do get to see all of it. Like, I get to see go home with him and. Okay, let me see how he thinking about this. He'll go back and watch the sparring. And when he watching it. Oh, my God, he's adjusting. His brain is just adjusting to the sparring that he just watched. And then we'll go in the gym the next day. And now he's just doing things and everything, just on point.

[Joe Rogan]

So do you do that? Do you watch your sparring?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I learned that from him.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I used to. Really never used to do that. But I had seen him. I forget what sparring session he was watching, I want to say, on his iPad, and he was watching it, and then I seen him sparring next time, and I'm like, we look like a million bucks. Like, the adjustments that he made was just insane. So I started doing the same thing. I'm like, if I have a day I don't like, I go home. Why did I have this day? Oh, my God. I keep doing that. Why do I keep doing it? Okay, I'm not doing that no more. Or. Oh, I could hit him with this. I see that that shot is open. Okay. Now I'm gonna hit him with this shot, and I think that that helps me tremendously.

[Joe Rogan]

That makes sense. Like watching yourself as an observer the way you would watch an opponent.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. Yeah. You gotta see what you do good and, like, what you do bad.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

And correct the things that you do

[Joe Rogan]

bad instead of just remembering it from the training.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

Watching it. Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. Cause I have, like, a bad habit sometimes when I'm, like, in a boxing gym, I like a fight I don't have. Like, I don't know why I would get in there. And sometimes I just turn into a fighter instead of realizing that I'm a boxer.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Shakur Stevenson]

And then sometimes I get hit with shots, and I'm like, oh, why am I getting hit with that shot? I'm like, I know my mental. My brain was already locked in on fighting instead of being locked in on boxing, then you fight.

[Joe Rogan]

Explain to people, what is the difference between your mentality fighting and your mentality as a boxer.

[Shakur Stevenson]

When I'm fighting, I'm emotional, like, and I don't want to be emotional, but I'm emotional and I'm fighting somebody. I'm trying to, like, beat them up, and I'm having a contest of who's the. The bigger and stronger guy. And when I'm boxing, I'm just on top of my game, and it's like, I'm able to hit you and you not able to hit me, and that's what I do best. So I try to, like, stick with what I do best, and it's gonna be a time to fight, so I have that in my arsenal for sure. But I don't like just doing it for no reason.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you sometimes feel yourself getting emotional, fight and have to pull it back?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I never had it happen in a fight, but I done had it happen, like, in the spar to where, like, all right, bro, you. Your emotions is just taking control instead of, like, you just having fun and enjoying what you doing.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Shakur Stevenson]

So, yeah, I done had no moments in the gym, for sure.

[Joe Rogan]

So it's just like a composure thing. All of a sudden, you're now not thinking as much. You're just trying to beat his ass.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Take the emotions out of the situation and just be you, like, be present. That's really my main thing. I want to be present in what I'm doing and not moving off of, like, feelings.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, right. That probably fucks up a lot of fighters, don't it?

[Shakur Stevenson]

For sure.

[Joe Rogan]

Because so many, especially men, they're so wrapped up in their feelings and their emotions when they're fighting.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, but fighters don't study theyself. Like, I study myself. Like, I gotta check in with myself and see, like, what am I doing wrong and what am I doing right? And I correct it.

[Joe Rogan]

You think that's rare?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I think that's a rare attribute. Cause fighters depend on they coaches. They depend on their coaches to do everything. And I do. I depend on my grandfather when I need him, but I know that I'm the fighter that's in there, so I'm not trying to just depend on them. I want to depend on myself also.

[Joe Rogan]

So, like, do you try to get the other guys in the gym to follow your footsteps and watch footage? You tell them, like, help them out with that?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, like the younger guys that I just mentioned, my little cousin and my little brother down there, Manny. I try to tell them to tune in with theyself and do the same similar things. Watch Yourself see what you're doing wrong and try to correct it. But they younger, so. So as time go on, they will, like, pick up on it. But I can't rush how I feel and my beliefs on them right now.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, the best thing you could do is lead by example.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, always. That's my main thing.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. If you do all the hard work and you put it in, they'll see your success. When they have harder moments, they'll go, okay, what do I need to adjust? Let me follow Shakura. Well, let me see what the champ is doing.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, that's the goal. That's my main goal. Cause like I said, I ain't gonna be boxing forever. So once I'm done, I'm gonna sit back and I'm gonna help them out.

[Joe Rogan]

So do you plan on coaching when you're done?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I probably don't coach.

[Joe Rogan]

Just help out in the gym.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Just call me a secret weapon. Call me a secret weapon. I'll be that guy.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you already think about what you're gonna do when you retire? Boxing is a sport where, when you retire, you still have so much life ahead of you, man.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That's the truth. But I've been trying to, like, figure it out, because I know it's going to be within boxing. But whatever I do, I'm going to do to the best of my ability. I'm going to want to, like, make tons of money for what I'm doing. And if I'm a secret weapon, shit, I might make money just being a secret weapon. So we'll see, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Just someone bringing into camp.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I'm the right guy for it. Yeah, I got all the iq. I watch too much boxing. Like, my life is, like, literally sit down and watch TV, watch iPad, watch. Like, I just live boxing, so I think that'll be kind of easy. But I just see myself, like, taking over the world. I ain't gonna lie.

[Joe Rogan]

In what way?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I don't know. Like, I can't tell you. Like, I don't know. Like, my brain kind of, like, different. Like, I don't feel like I know for a fact I'm not gonna be boxing for long. Like, I don't plan on getting in the ring, doing the wrist and doing all that forever.

[Joe Rogan]

So

[Shakur Stevenson]

when I take over the world, it's gonna be more so, like, me just locking in and using the same focus that I got for boxing into whatever else that I'm doing and take over. Like, whatever I do, I want to be the best.

[Joe Rogan]

So you don't even have a thought of what it's going to be. You'll figure that out when you get out of boxing.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I journal a lot, so I be writing things down. Oh, really? I can't tell you exactly what it's going to be, but I do know that I'm going to be somewhere making millions in a different atmosphere.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's a great attitude to have. I'm glad you say you journal because this is one of the things that I wanted to bring up. I wish more boxers were interested in writing books because I think there's some of the things that you're talking about today and some of the things you're talking about in terms of like, watching yourself analyzing yourself, things you've learned. They'll be very, very valuable if it's written down. But boxing knowledge is all word of mouth in the gym. It's all people who know things, tell other people and they learn things. And you got to go to these gyms and talk to these people. Or you get boxing knowledge from the commentators. Like, Andre Ward will spit it out or Roy Jones will spit it out. Like, that is where boxing knowledge gets sort of recorded. Yeah, but I think it would be great if boxers could sit down and write just on boxing, because you think about, like, what a huge sport boxing is, huge sport. Like, one of the pinnacles of sports, of combat sports. But yet there's not a lot of books written about technique and style and how they learn things and what they learned and why and what changed. And I learned that in this fight. In this fight, this changed. And I adjusted this about my training sessions. And I heard Emmanuel Stewart talk about over training, and so I realized maybe I was doing that.

[Shakur Stevenson]

It is one book.

[Joe Rogan]

What is it, Andre?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Wo book.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that's right.

[Shakur Stevenson]

People gotta read it. But I'm not fully done with it either. But as I read through some of it, he's giving out some free game. Like, it's free game in there that people could go listen to and read it and check it out. Cause it's definitely like.

[Joe Rogan]

Did he read it for the audiobook?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I'm not sure. Sure. I'm not sure. I know I got the actual book, so I just read it, but I didn't finish it. I won't say that I finished it, but.

[Joe Rogan]

But he talks all about those things.

[Shakur Stevenson]

It's a lot of things in there that's like, free game. Like, okay, ooh, I like that. Like, I might take that. Like, if you're training. Even if you're training a fighter, like you're training The Fighter. It's something that I saw that he said that I'm like, okay, I'm gonna take that if I'm a trained fighter.

[Joe Rogan]

Narrated by Andre Ward Perfect Killing the Image A Champion's journey, Fighting and Forgiveness. He's the perfect guy to do that too because like I said, he's the guy that did it. Right. You know, went out on top. What's that?

[Shakur Stevenson]

He helped you understand.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we need more books like that. I'll read that book. I haven't read it, but I'll read it because I think it's just there's so much knowledge out there in certain camps and it would benefit the entire sport if someone would document some of that stuff. Because some of that stuff is only told to the fighters that this guy's training and only told to the other fighters this guy trains with. And it's not, it's not out there and it could get lost. You know, like, I'm sure there's some shit that Floyd knows that only people around him know that have been told that will be lost. This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Recipes, cooking methods, even portioning. It all makes a difference for your dog's health. And the Farmer's dog is pouring a ton of resources into new research studies. They've also just started sponsoring a residency program at the University of Tennessee's College of Veterinary Medicine which aims to contribute new research and help shape the future of pet health. You can see their dedication to science backed dog nutrition in their food. Every recipe is developed by a team of board certified veterinary nutritionists and they offer tailored plans for dogs of all ages, sizes and breeds. They do all this on top of offering a high quality product of real meat, fresh vegetables and essential nutrients. They even portion the food to your dog's specific caloric needs. Because keeping dogs at a healthy weight can help them live up to two and a half years longer. Try the Farmer's Dog today and get 50 off your first box of fresh healthy food. Plus get free shipping. Just go to the farmersdog.com rogan this offer is for new customers only. This episode is brought to you by Visible Folks. There's one thing nobody wants this season and that's getting catfished. And it's not just dating pro that are putting you at risk. It's also big wireless carriers. You know the type. Looks great at first, promises a low price, but once you're locked in, surprise fees and an expensive bill that isn't what you were expecting. Your knight and Shining Armor Visible Wireless. It's one line wireless with unlimited data and hotspot for just $25 a month, taxes and fees included. Now that's a green flag. The best part, Visible is all digital, so you can switch as fast as you can swipe. Don't fall for the trap of getting catfished by Wireless. Visit visible.com to learn more and start loving your wireless carrier terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, for sure.

[Joe Rogan]

You know what I'm saying?

[Shakur Stevenson]

It's something he told me before this last fight that I. I took in, and I'm like, ooh, really?

[Joe Rogan]

What do you say?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I'm using that. It's simple, though. It's very simple. Like I said, it's hard for me to keep giving out the. Maybe when I retire, I'll.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, come on, man. What'd he say?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Nah, he just told me, stretching, stretching, stretching. How powerful stretching is, and I just gave up. It's simple, though. Like, people know it, but do people do it?

[Joe Rogan]

Dude, people don't even do it in mma. You know how crazy that is, where you have to kick and people don't stretch?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, I was having a conversation with this dude who was a world champion, and I was explaining to him a jiu jitsu position. I was like, this is why it's effective. He's like, oh, I can't get my legs up that high. I go, what are you talking about? You can. You just have to stretch because I don't really stretch. I'll go, that's crazy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Every. No, there's a lot of fighters in sports. That's like, I don't see it.

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I don't see it.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, Floyd has always been a guy who did everything right. I mean, if you want to emulate a guy's career. Floyd has been hit hard maybe three times in his whole career. Yeah, maybe. Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He's the truth.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, 100%.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Every time I watch him, he's a wizard. I barely seen anybody, like. Like that good. Like, for me personally. Yes, barely. Like, it's only a handful of people that I could say, like, okay, they're that good. Like, his brain just working at a different level than a lot of people.

[Joe Rogan]

Also just insanely disciplined, always in shape, always took care of himself. Would go out to a club, drink water, and then run home. In jeans.

[Shakur Stevenson]

In jeans. That's tough. I heard he had on like. Like, boots. Boots. I never heard of that like that before.

[Joe Rogan]

I could imagine. I mean, but that's the results, Right. You get a guy who's just head and shoulders above everybody he fights and just a master of pinpoint precision and movement and knowing where you are and hard to hit, but stood right in front of you. That's the crazy thing about Floyd. There's a lot of guys that were hard to hit, but they were like fleet of foot and moving around. Footwork and Lomachenko style, you know, Not Floyd. Right in front of you. Right in front of you. You can't hit him.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Kind of similar.

[Joe Rogan]

Crazy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Kind of similar to me.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But nah, I think he's definitely. He's a chico.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

His mental was just too far ahead of everybody else's.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That's the main thing.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, the one fight between, like, guys who retired and came back that I'm still interested in seeing is him and Manny. And I know they're gonna do that on Netflix. Floyd, I think that's still a high level fight, though. That's what I love about it. Because I think Manny is still a high level fighter. And Floyd, even in these exhibitions that

[Shakur Stevenson]

he's been doing, looking good.

[Joe Rogan]

He looks great, man. He looks great in sparring. You see him in sparring, like, good Lord, man. It doesn't look like he's lost a step.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I honestly, I don't see Manny being able to beat Floyd Mayweather. Like, I don't see it. I think Manny looked solid his last fight with Barrios, but I just don't see Floyd losing. Like, I think it's some guys that he could come back today in the sport of boxing and fight.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I think so.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Like, guys, even though he's Barrios.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, Right.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I think he would.

[Joe Rogan]

He would like Barrios up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, it was like there's levels. I mean, no matter what he's lost being 46, he. They haven't gained that yet. I mean, they're not. They were never there in the first place. Because if he was here and he's lost this much, they're still here.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Even though he's not Floyd that fought Canelo or Floyd that fought Ricky Hatton, it's not the same Floyd. It's not that much different.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, he's still so far ahead.

[Joe Rogan]

Cause he's not drinking, he's not fucking his body up. He's not doing anything stupid. He stays in shape, he eats right. Yep.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I appreciate Floyd too. Cause that's one of the guys that I never did no business with ever. And he still kind of helped me. So I appreciate him. And I think he's a real dude. He got my love and respect.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I always say that if you wanted to. To have a style that you emulate where you want to have a great career. Look at that guy. Like, really. Very few times in his career ever got hurt.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Very, very few. You could count him on one hand.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

You know where he was in any kind of trouble at all?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. That's my goal.

[Joe Rogan]

And then when. In rematches. Oh, my God. In rematches, he's always just like. So, like, Maidana. Like Maidana. The first fight was rough fight.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Second fight, he looked like a master.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I'm not gonna lie, though. He's one of the guys that makes me want to, like, feel the experience of, like, getting hurt. Cause, like, when he fought Shane Woolsley, that moment of, like, he lost his whole balance. Everything almost went to his feet, but he stayed up.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Shakur Stevenson]

And then he fought back harder. Like, I feel like that was, like, a amazing moment of his career. And like, for me, I want to have the experience of that moment. Like, I have never got hit, like, cracked like that yet in a pro. So I actually want to experience.

[Joe Rogan]

You really want that?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Really?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Cause I want to show, like, that

[Joe Rogan]

you could do it.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. Like, you gotta see, like, I got more in me than just being, like, a good boxer. Like, I'm a good boxer, but I'm tough, too.

[Joe Rogan]

The Mosley fight was probably the fight where he got hurt the most.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And the most dangerous. Because it was like. Like, I think it was kind of in the middle of the round, right?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. Yeah. I want to feel that experience. Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

And that was prime.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I told Andre Ward that. He told me. He, like, man, why, why, why would you. Why would you want to. But I'm like, I don't understand why, but I definitely do.

[Joe Rogan]

Who do you think out there could do that?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I don't think nobody. I don't think they're, like, mentally on the level to you. And I think I'm just too far ahead that.

[Joe Rogan]

But that's the problem with being too far ahead is that it's going to be hard for you to get fights. Yeah. What are they talking about right now? Is there anybody that they're talking about right now for you?

[Shakur Stevenson]

No, I haven't really heard none from a business standpoint since my last fight.

[Joe Rogan]

So the problem is the last fight was too good. You know, like, you would have probably got some offers before that fight, but after the. That fighter. But it's like, hold on. I don't know If I want that to happen to me.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I don't. I, I have no clue who I'll be fighting next.

[Joe Rogan]

Who do you have your sights on? Like, who do you like? If you could make the decision, who do you think is interesting right now?

[Shakur Stevenson]

If I can make a decision, interest would interest me, maybe. And this is crazy to say, I may go back to 35 and get that ring back belt. Really, I may. We'll see though. Yeah, I can't promise that I will, but I may.

[Joe Rogan]

What, what, what makes that more interesting to you?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I like the ring belt. Like, I like the ring magazine belt. I don't know what it is about it, but for me to have a ring belt at 130 and then I had, I got a ring belt right now at 140, but I never had a ring belt at 35. And it's like, should I just go get that ring belt just to, just to have it?

[Joe Rogan]

So it's the belt, not even the opponent.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I know the opponent that I would have to fight to get it. I'm hearing this Raymond Moritaya, he's a good fighter. He just beat Andy Cruz. So, nah, this ain't the opponent. It's more so just to have the

[Joe Rogan]

ring belt, that's crazy. Like you're at a position where you're not even thinking about opponents, you're thinking about belts you'd like to acquire. That's pretty cool though. I mean, that's a beautiful place to be in. Yeah, that's beautiful. But what about opponents? Is there any opponents? Like if you had, like, if no one could say no, and you were like, I'm gonna orchestrate my career, who would you like to fight?

[Shakur Stevenson]

If it was no opponents, I mean, and I was orchestrating, I probably.

[Joe Rogan]

Because the fight that I would think that would generate the most amount of interest at 135 would be tank. Now, I know Tank's got some legal issues now and I don't know what his status is currently, but when in terms of big names, Tank is the big name at 35.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I would love to, for it to happen, but the way that he went on like social media and kind of like bashed me in a way to where it was like he made it seem like I need him. And I just feel disrespected about it because at the end of the day, I'm a grown man, I make my own money, I'm living a spectacular life. I don't need nobody. So if he feel as though I need him and if it's that kind of stuff. Then it's like, whatever, I'm not in need of that fight.

[Joe Rogan]

The thing is, like, Tank had gotten a bunch of those high profile fights. He KO'd Ryan, he's had some big high profile fights, look great. And so for him to say that, he's probably, you know, he's talking shit, obviously, but he's like looking at you as like you haven't had. Had before the Lopez fight, you haven't had that big breakout fight, but now you have, now you have, and it was more spectacular than you. I mean, if you wanted to write out a perfect result on paper against a world champion like Tiafimo, that would be the fight. You would say, yeah, so that's it. If I had to think of like a big fight for you, if I was the guy with the magic wand, that'd be the fight that I would set up.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I would love to fight. Fight. I would love for that fight to happen. So.

[Joe Rogan]

Ooh, that would be a big fight. Especially after you just beat Lopez. That'd be a big fight.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I would love for the fight to happen.

[Joe Rogan]

That might be the only big fight that I could think of other than you going up. But 47's like you said, that's a big jump, man.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I'm not. I'll make it though. I'll make it soon. Soon. I mean, later than sooner.

[Joe Rogan]

But do you think if you did that you would want to, to prepare and put mass on or would you just stay at the weight you are and just get accustomed to fighting bigger guys?

[Shakur Stevenson]

If I was to go to 47, I would want to like, prepare. Like, I would want to do it slowly. I wouldn't want to just jump to 147. And

[Joe Rogan]

you would want to put on weight, you think?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, some type of weight.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep. Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Cause I'm little. Like, I can't just jump in the ring at the size that I am at 147 pounds. When I know guys, it's going to be a lot bigger.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. Especially when you're talking about Ryan being 170 when he gets in the ring. He might even be bigger than that. He was big and ripped in his last fight. He looked great.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, for sure.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, but it's like, that's one of those things too, is if you do go up, going down gets real hard going back. Like if you go up.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I always say that I don't understand the, the reason with that, because your

[Joe Rogan]

body gets accustomed to being bigger and then. Yeah, yeah. And Then. So if you put on mass, right? So if you put on muscle and you go up to, like 147, and so you're walking around at 155, 160, something like that, you drop down to 47, you've got more shoulder muscle, chest muscle, back muscle, leg muscle. If you stay at that weight and then you gotta cut down to 35, you're gonna feel like. And the example that I always use is Roy. So when Roy Jones went up and fought John Ruiz, won the heavyweight title, then he went back down to light heavyweight, he never looked the same because he was 200 pounds solid at a heavyweight. Ripped, like, muscular. 200 pounds. For him to lose 25 pounds of weight and go back down to light heavyweight, that is fucking hard.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I get that. I get that. I feel like when Rory did that, Rory was like. I think he must have been trying to set up a big heavyweight fight, maybe. Or was he just trying to just win the title?

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, I think he was just trying to be, like, the only guy to go from middleweight to win the heavyweight title, which he did.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. I don't understand why he did that, because you right, when he fought Tarver, it was like. I don't know what was happening. Like, I didn't really think Tarver was as good as Rory, but Tarver beat Rory.

[Joe Rogan]

Tarver's a bad motherfucker, though. Tarver's a very good fighter, and I

[Shakur Stevenson]

think he beat Roy.

[Joe Rogan]

I think Tarver in that fight. First of all, they had fought before, right? They had had a real close decision, loss. Tarver lost. And then Tarver got in his head at the beginning of the fight. So. You got any excuses tonight, Roy?

[Shakur Stevenson]

That was crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

That was crazy. That was crazy. Like, to hear that, like, right when you're about to fight.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Any questions for the champion? Any questions for the job? Got any excuses tonight?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Oh, my God. Right? Man, I don't know.

[Joe Rogan]

That was one of the wildest things anybody's ever seen.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That would have turned me up, though. Like, if he would have said that to, like. I'm trying to picture somebody saying that to me right before we fight. Now, I'm gonna want. I already wanna beat you back. Right now I'm gonna want to beat you even better. Like, then after the fight, I'm gonna get on the mic and. What did you say? Did you say something?

[Joe Rogan]

But when he dropped Roy and knocked him out, I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe it.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But I was worried about him because I know what that does to people when they drop weight. And dropping down from £200 to 175 was. Will really wear your body out.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. So you think it was more so the weight than the skills of Tarver?

[Joe Rogan]

I would never say that because I think Tarver has elite skills. I mean, Tarva's elite. I think he's elite. Oh, come on. I think Tarva's an elite fighter.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Elite?

[Joe Rogan]

You don't think he's elite?

[Shakur Stevenson]

No, no.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, he's.

[Shakur Stevenson]

With all due respect to great performances

[Joe Rogan]

and not as good performances, but I think in the performance against Roy, he looked elite.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, he looked good that night, but.

[Joe Rogan]

Cause he rose to the occasion.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I just don't know about elite. Elite level.

[Joe Rogan]

I get it.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Me personally, I'm not the biggest harbor fan, so.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, well, I defer to your championship knowledge, but I mean, in that fight, you can't say that he didn't look spectacular in that fight.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He did. He looked on point. He looked like he was the better fighter at that moment.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Awkward southpaw.

[Shakur Stevenson]

When I watched the first fight, I thought Roy was a way better fighter than him. I thought Roy just stood on the ropes for way too long. I don't know why he did that.

[Joe Rogan]

Was the first fight before or after he fought Ruiz?

[Shakur Stevenson]

It was after.

[Joe Rogan]

Was it after the first fight? They had too. That probably wore his ass out too, I think. I just think once you go all the way up like that, you should probably stay there. Yeah. And I don't know how we went up. I don't want to. You know, it's hard for a guy in his 30s to put on that kind of muscle.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And generally you have some help.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So generally some Mexican supplements involved. And so the problem is he took oster. Once you have taken that stuff and then you stop taking it because you want to go back to your normal weight, your whole endocrine system gets up. This is the problem with juicers, guys who take juice. The thing that happens, man, don't tell me this.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Hold on.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm not saying this about Roy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay. We just talk in general, fighters that gain weight and. And have lean muscle and put on that kind of mass.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Generally they're doing it with some kind of supplement, some kind of either steroids or something that juices up your endocrine system, whether it is Peptides. Yes.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Damn. I never heard of this.

[Joe Rogan]

You didn't know?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Nah.

[Joe Rogan]

What? Come on, man, you know, for real.

[Shakur Stevenson]

No, I didn't know.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, come on. There's a lot of fighters that took stuff.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Oh, I know. No, I know that.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I know that people is cheating.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, well, in the older days, before they were testing.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, come on, man. Like in the 90s, who knows how many guys were on steroids?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Damn. That take away the credit of them guys? Cause I feel like when I watched them guys, they was the truth.

[Joe Rogan]

Now you tell they are the truth. But I don't think, I think. Well, here, let me use what I know for an example. An MMA, MMA is a better example. Because in MMA, fucking for sure, I could tell you 100% people were juice juicing. 100. Because I knew guys who were juicing. Yeah. They would tell me what they were on and everybody was juicing. So then they started implementing. So then the UFC starts getting sanctioned by athletic commissions and they test day of the fight. Yeah, the day of the fight test is an intelligence test, it's not a steroids test. It's like, were you intelligent enough to cycle off right before the fight with the right kind of steroids so that on the weigh in day when you get tested, tested, you don't test positive? Yeah, that's all it is. And a lot of these camps, like big MMA camps, they have scientists working in the camps helping them cheat. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Now not so much anymore because then the ufc, it is scary, but the thing is everybody was doing it. And then on top of that, you had an organization like Pride. And I don't know if you're aware of Pride, but Pride was the big organization in Japan. I mean, they were selling out 90,000 seat arenas in Japan for these promotions. They were huge. And everyone was juiced to the tits. I don't know if everybody was, but a lot I don't think Rampage was. Rampage told me he never took steroids and I believe him. But a lot of guys were juiced up. And I know for a fact they were juiced up because they told me. They told me. And they also tell him like Ensign anyway, who fought for Pride, told me that on his contract. Yeah, Ensign Inua. Yeah, like not the, like not related, but same last name. Ensign. He was a great fighter, a pioneer at mma. Ensign told me that on his Pride contract it said in all capital letters, we do not test for steroids like they incur. I had a friend of faun Japan, they encouraged him to take steroids.

[Shakur Stevenson]

See this, this scared me because I gotta get in a boxing ring and I know that people be cheating, like some people cheat. I know it's be like low level fighters that you'll go there and you'll be like, why do this guy punch way harder than a lot of people? Like, Right. I don't understand it. And it's like, I don't.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, there's a few fighters in MMA that when steroids started being tested for their. Their body shrunk, and then their power went away. Like, there was guys that were knocking everybody out, and then also they couldn't knock anybody out. It's crazy. I mean, there's so many stories in MMA where you see fighters, physiques just deflate, like. Yeah, like they're a balloon that got air let out of it.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Like, I seen it in boxing, though. I see guys, they kind of, like, get caught with steroids, and then they have a fight after that, and it's like they look like, where did the power go?

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly.

[Shakur Stevenson]

All of your power.

[Joe Rogan]

But that's a fact. That's a fact.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I get it.

[Joe Rogan]

That does happen. And then there's also ways that we can't figure out what they're doing yet. I mean, this has happened all throughout sports, right? This was the whole thing with Barry Bonds and the BALCO scandal. In baseball, they had developed a steroid called the clear. And what the clear was, was a steroid that was undetectable. They hadn't figured out, but eventually they got caught, and so who knows what kind of shit. It's not like they stopped trying to innovate and come up with ways to get an advantage. There's definitely people doing it now, but the way the UFC works now, first they brought in usada, now they have a company called Drug Free Sport that does the same thing, and they just show up and test you. You don't get a notification, it's going to happen next Tuesday. So you can take a bunch of shit that clears it out of your system. So they just show up, knock on your door, hey, it's time for a test. And then you guys, that's what vada do. That's how they should.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Vada do the same thing. They just show up and.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's how they should.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Urine, blood.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Just anytime. Actually, my last camp, they tested me like, four or five times.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, well, that's the only way to know. You got to show up randomly and. And test guys. That's the only way to know with

[Shakur Stevenson]

it, though, because I ain't never, ever really did anything when it come to cheating, so.

[Joe Rogan]

But if you go. And this is, again, not casting any disparaging remarks about Roy, who's one of the greatest of all Time. But if you went back to the Ruiz fight, do you think they were testing him? I doubt it. I doubt it. There was no Vada testing back then. There's.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But then Usado was in boxing.

[Joe Rogan]

No, I don't think so. No, No.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I could have sworn they was in boxing.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, let's find out. Was the Roy Jones, John Ruiz Jr. Fight, did they utilize Vada testing? I don't think they did.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Usada.

[Joe Rogan]

Usada.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Usada.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay. Usada. I don't think they did. I don't think. I don't think that. Look, that was always a thing about Manny. Like, people always said that about Manny.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I heard that too.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Only reason why it was believable though, Cause I never went up eight weight classes. I never seen that in my life.

[Joe Rogan]

And kept the knockout power.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I'd never seen that in my life.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I never. In the history of the sport, you go from 1, what, 109, whatever he started at, to 154. And you're just knocking guys out. I know, that's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

And his physique, you know, I mean, he looks fantastic at every step of the way. And he also had that. Dude, what did it say? Was not held under a modern UFC style USADA program. There's no record of being part of any independent year round USADA VADA scheme like we see today.

[Shakur Stevenson]

So they just depending on the athletic commission.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, but again, the athletic commission, it's just fight day. It's an intelligence test. Yeah, I mean, I will show you. Show him. Alistair Overeem when he fought Brock Lesnar, like at the weigh in. Now, Alistair Overeem is the greatest example in MMA of a guy who, when he was on the juice, he was unstoppable. Unstoppable. They called him Ubereem when he was unstoppable because he looked like a comic book superhero. He was so jacked. And then when they started doing USADA testing, he looked completely different. I mean, completely different. He got softer. He still looked good, but he didn't look like Ubereem when he. There's an image of him flexing on the scale. Like, look at him right there. Come on, son. I mean, come on. Look at that girl. Look at Arianny's face. And she's looking at his back. She's like, what the fuck? And that was. I mean, come on, man. He was a fucking monster.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He was knocking guys out.

[Joe Rogan]

He was destroying everybody. He was destroying everybody when he was juiced up. And he started his career as a light heavyweight, so he started his career as a 205 pound guy who is thin and skinny.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That's light heavyweight.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's light heavyweight. The UFC's weight classes are all up like. Well, I know it's stupid. They have the same names but different weight classes. So like welterweight is 170 in the UFC. Yeah. Look at him. So that's the difference between how he was when he was juicing versus how he was. You see the difference? It's crazy, right? Isn't it crazy? It's crazy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Damn.

[Joe Rogan]

So the guy on the right was just. He had to move more, right. He was still very skillful. He's a very skillful kickboxer, Very skillful MMA fighter. But I mean, when that guy was fully jacked up and juiced, man, he was almost unstoppable.

[Shakur Stevenson]

See, that's why, man, that's why I be. I don't like that. Like, that's my thing. I do not want to get in the ring with somebody that's cheating. Like, I feel like that's. But I'm so good to where it's like, even if you are cheating, you ain't gonna hit me. You won't be punching on me.

[Joe Rogan]

Imagine if you're fighting a guy that's at your level, but he's cheating. Yeah, that's the problem. That's the problem right now. There's not really anybody in your division that's at that level that's like really compelling. I mean, other than at 135 tank. But imagine if there's someone that's at your level and you're pretty sure they're cheating. That's gotta fuck with your head.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Honestly, I feel like it's some competitive guys at these weight classes they just not know, right? But it's some names that's like, okay, like even Lamont Roach.

[Joe Rogan]

Lamont Roach is very good. That fight with Gervonta was crazy because that was a knockdown. That's a knockdown.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He won. He won for sure.

[Joe Rogan]

The fact that he took a knee and the referee didn't call it a knockdown, that's. That's crazy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, he won. But to say, like, I'm just saying, it is guys out there.

[Joe Rogan]

For me, Lamont is a great example.

[Shakur Stevenson]

It be big fights and competitive fights and I done spar Lamont. So I know Lamont is.

[Joe Rogan]

He's legit.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, a lot of people did not know about him before that fight, but after that fight, I mean, look, that sucks, man, because that goes down on his record as a loss and that's Was it a draw?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Draw.

[Joe Rogan]

Draw, that's right. It was a draw. And he won the fight.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He clearly won.

[Joe Rogan]

He won the fight.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I thought he won the fight anyway.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I did too.

[Joe Rogan]

But the knockdown, like, you can't say I got shit in my hair and it got in my eyes and that's why I went down. That's crazy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That was very amateurish.

[Joe Rogan]

It was weird, right?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Amateurish. I didn't.

[Joe Rogan]

It was weird.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I never saw the none like that.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's like Gervonta just looked like his head wasn't totally there in that fight.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, maybe.

[Joe Rogan]

So do you require vata testing for all your fights and do you have that ability to do that?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

So in negotiations, you make sure that

[Shakur Stevenson]

everybody's getting tested when they come down.

[Joe Rogan]

Good for you.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I do not play that.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, good for you, man. Good for you. I mean, it's. We're very fortunate that we have these testing bodies like that now available because again, like, if they had who knows what a lot of fighters legacies would be. If they were testing them at every step along the way.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, they get caught.

[Joe Rogan]

They get caught.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. So with mma, it was the wild west for a long time. For a long time. It was the wild, wild west. Everybody was doing all kinds of shit.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I wouldn't be able to do that. Like, I would not be able to get in the ring, lose to somebody and then know they cheated me.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Because I don't know how I will react to like, that would be like one of the moments I may crash out. And I don't do crash out things. So I might crash out about like, ain't no way you just cheated me, bro.

[Joe Rogan]

Right?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Ain't no way you just cheated me, bro.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, the thing is that with combat sports versus every other sport is your goal is to hurt your opponent. And if there's a thing you're doing that's cheating, that helps you hurt your opponent. That is a different kind of cheating. Yeah, it's not like cheating in baseball. Like, who gives a fuck if you hit another home run? I think they should all cheat in baseball. I think they should all get on steroids, make it more exciting. Like. Because the only thing that's exciting about baseball is home runs, right? Yeah, that's the number one thing. If you got a way that you guys can hit more home runs. Give it to him. What are you stupid?

[Shakur Stevenson]

It's like harmless. Like, it's not really going to hurt nobody.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly, I get it. Exactly.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But in boxing is like, it's life or death.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, Boxing is real life or death.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That's why I don't know how, like, I would react. Don't you? Anybody watching this, please don't cheat me. I am not the guy to be cheated. So just understand that.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I mean, whenever people are looking for shortcuts and people want to win, there's always going to be someone that's willing to do something that they're not supposed to be doing.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That ain't it, though. Like this. Like you said, it's life or death.

[Joe Rogan]

Like life or death.

[Shakur Stevenson]

See, you could cheat and hit somebody with the wrong shot and then they dead. What's the guy that killed somebody? Sabrio Matias.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He killed the dude and now he just got popped for cheating. So it's like, oh, he did? Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I didn't know that. What did he get popped for?

[Shakur Stevenson]

I don't even know.

[Joe Rogan]

He lost recently, right?

[Shakur Stevenson]

He lost right before the loss. They had popped him for cheating. I wanna say Dalton Smith, fifth.

[Joe Rogan]

So they. He lost. So he. He got popped and then he lost the next fight?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, they let him fight. Wow. Y. But it's like, I wonder if he's

[Joe Rogan]

the same guy after he got popped.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That's what I was saying too.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know either, but because he was killing everybody. I mean, yeah, he actually only killed one guy, but.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, but he actually killed somebody. But if I'm the family of somebody that he killed and now, right, he comes out as cheating, I will be like, hold up now, bro.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, can you see what Matthias got popped for? That's crazy. He was. Who's the dude who just beat him? Dude, just stop.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Smith.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes. Yeah. That was a crazy fight.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That was crazy. They were going. They was going to.

[Joe Rogan]

They went to war. I mean, that was not an easy fight for him. And Matthias is a dangerous dude, man.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. That was a great performance by dog.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

People don't know. Back in the day when I was in the Junior Worlds, me and him went to the worlds together.

[Joe Rogan]

So, ostarine. Everybody's on ostarine. What is it about? I don't even know much about osterine. What does ostarine do, Jamie? Let's find out what it does. Ostarine. Selective androgen receptor modulator. Designed to treat muscle wasting conditions and osteoporosis by promoting muscle growth and bone density without the severe side effects of anabolic steroids. Popular amongst bodybuilders for enhancing muscle mass and fat loss. It's not approved for human consumption by the fda. Banned by wada and linked to side effects like liver toxicity, testosterone suppression and cardiovascular risks. So it helps you keep muscle and bone density. Yeah, well, it makes it sense. Makes sense that that would be a good supplement for boxers. What are you showing me here? Before or after? Look at that guy, the one you got your link on. Jesus. Well, he looks like he's faking it in the third picture. But I mean, you're always going to have certain people that are going to cheat.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I hate it.

[Joe Rogan]

Are there any, like world title fights that take place that don't have vata testing?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I think it is. I think people fight without it, but I don't, I don't play that. Yeah, I don't play that. I be thinking, man, I done sparred a dude in the gym that was like not good one time. Like, he's not good at all. But I'm sparring him. Like, man, this dude punched harder than everybody I ever been in the ring with. I wonder, like, dude, did that dude, do he be cheating?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, some dudes just have natural God given power too.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But when you like fat, not kind of like you out of shape, then you just punch super hard and it's slow, but it's like, boom, boom. I be thinking people be cheating.

[Joe Rogan]

They might be, but they might just have the gift.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, that's true.

[Joe Rogan]

The thing about boxing is punching power. You can enhance your punching power, but that crazy punching power, that's a gift. Yeah, you're born with it. Like Ernie Shavers type punching power. Or Deontay Wilder. Wilder, the greatest example ever.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Oh, my God.

[Joe Rogan]

One Shot with Teddy Atlas is the best example. He called it the eraser. All the mistakes you made, it doesn't matter.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, because I sit there and watch Wilder and I'm like, dog, it's some fights that I see him not punch at all until the shot is there.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Shakur Stevenson]

And when the shot is there, he got you, it's over.

[Joe Rogan]

It's crazy how hard he hits. I mean, he might be the greatest one punch knockout artist in the history of the heavyweight.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I think he is. I think he's like, no question. Like, he's probably the hardest puncher that ever box.

[Joe Rogan]

He's up there. I mean, Ernie Shavers back in the

[Shakur Stevenson]

day punch harder than Wilder.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow. They all said Ernie Shavers was the, like, even Ali said nobody hit harder than her.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Shavers, Wilder.

[Joe Rogan]

I know, I know. Wilder too is. He's not big. He only weighed 209 when he fought Tyson Fury the first time.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That right hand, he got crazy. I Don't think nobody could take it.

[Joe Rogan]

It's crazy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I don't think nobody could take it. I'm not gonna lie. I saw Fury take it. But you know what?

[Joe Rogan]

He's like. He's like giant Tommy Hearns. Yeah, that's what it's like.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Long leverage, just torque, the width of the shoulders, the snap of the punch, just blap.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I wish he retired, though. Like, I feel like he. What else is there to do? Like, you done did a lot in the sport. You done made a lot of money. I just wish, like, certain guys just

[Joe Rogan]

like, okay, I know, I know.

[Shakur Stevenson]

What am I doing this for now?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, he's gonna fight Derek Jora, which is interesting because they're both the same age. They're both. They both have 50 fights. They're both kind of in the same.

[Shakur Stevenson]

But, you know, I like Derek Chisel. He a cool dude, too.

[Joe Rogan]

He seems cool.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I mean, it's a great time for boxing. There's a lot of talent, a lot of very, very compelling matchups. Are they gonna do a B. Vol. Better BF Rebatch? Are they gonna do a. I don't want to see a trilogy.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I want to see bvol versus Benavidez. Oh, that's the fight. Like, I don't.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, the fight was Benavidez versus Canelo. Well, that never could get made. For some reason, that dude is just

[Shakur Stevenson]

too big for Canelo, though. Like, I. I'm not. I see both sides. Like, I, I. I love Benavidez and I'm a fan of him. So I see the side of, like, like, fight me, bro. You the. You the guy? I'm the guy. We number one. Number one. Let's fight. But then I see Canelo side. He's like, man, this dude is 200 pounds on a regular, right? And I'm nowhere near that weight. So it's like, like, why would I fight this guy? Like, I don't think it's fair. Like, that's how he feeling.

[Joe Rogan]

So, yeah, I understand it. But Canelo went up and fought Bival, but he knew.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He didn't. He didn't. He didn't think Baval was going to be him.

[Joe Rogan]

You don't think so?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Nah. Well, he didn't think. He thought he was going to beat

[Joe Rogan]

Bavar after Bival beat him. You think that killed the chances?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, he knew. Like, it's time. Like, I cannot fight these guys. That's super big.

[Joe Rogan]

And I love watching Benavidez fight.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, He's a truth.

[Joe Rogan]

He's a marvel.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He's a killer.

[Joe Rogan]

He is a fucking.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He did something that helped my hands. He told me to put on the gloves that I be wearing on fight night, and they helped my hands, so I appreciate him, too.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you do anything to strengthen your hands? Do you do, like, exercises to get.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, it's a. I can't tell everybody. I can't tell everybody.

[Joe Rogan]

All right, tell me later.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I'll tell you later.

[Joe Rogan]

There's a bunch of different things people do. Like, buckets of rice is a big one.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Oh, yeah, for sure. You do that, too.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah. Moving your hands around in buckets. What is it? Benavidez targets to beat you. Bivol. Oh, there we go.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That's the fight.

[Joe Rogan]

That's the fight.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That's the best versus the best. I think that's one of the best fights to make in the sport of boxing.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, he's fighting Ramirez at cruiserweight, right?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And then he's gonna drop back down to light heavyweight and fight Bival. I like that. Yeah. I want to make the biggest and the best fights happening. Fuck, yeah. Yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

That's one of the best fights in the sport.

[Joe Rogan]

Arthur. Better be, but better be of is like, 40 now.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. He's the truth, though, too.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, he's a truth. He was a crusher forever.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He punched too hard.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, my God.

[Shakur Stevenson]

He. Another one.

[Joe Rogan]

He bangs dudes out. He's got a crazy style.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, it's funny. When people sparred him, they have these. These stories.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, he hits you and you're like, what just happened?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. I could see it, though. And I watched him fight Bavar. I'm front row and, like, Bavar like to catch shots on his glove and, like, I could see, like, how hard he was punching his glove. Like, damn. I don't know how Bavar is taking that, but I know.

[Joe Rogan]

And he was 39 back then. Yeah, that's what's crazy. It's like we missed his prime. Yeah, unfortunately.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. We seen one fight where he fought the overseas guy, Gavar something, and he beat. He beat him up. Oh, my God, he beat him up.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, he was at one point in time, wasn't he? Like 39. 0 with 39 knockouts, which is just nuts at that level. That is just punching too hard. It's just nuts that he stopped everybody.

[Shakur Stevenson]

And it looks natural, too. It don't look like he's like steroids.

[Joe Rogan]

No, it looks natural.

[Shakur Stevenson]

No, it looks very natural.

[Joe Rogan]

But didn't he get in trouble? Caught with something?

[Shakur Stevenson]

He got caught with something.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Put that Better be ev.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Not better be ev.

[Joe Rogan]

Man, I feel like I might be wrong, but I feel like maybe there was a tainted supplement.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Man, come on.

[Joe Rogan]

Not better, B. I think so. I might be wrong.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, you gotta.

[Joe Rogan]

If I'm wrong, I apologize.

[Shakur Stevenson]

You gotta be wrong. For Betty, b.

[Joe Rogan]

This was 2024. Is that atypical? Yeah, this is what it was. Atypical drug test result Adverse findings May have threatened. Now, what does that mean? What does it say? Look at Conor McGregor. Conor McGregor screaming and yelling. What does it say? What did he get caught with? Atypical finding is not a violation. Requires more testing. Better be have underwent those examinations at VADA request. VADA reported negative results from the follow up test. So what was the. The positive test? What does that mean?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, what do that mean?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, here it goes. He received atypical findings for human growth hormone and 5D Andro. Both occur naturally in the body. When an atypical finding is received, further testing is required to determine if an athlete naturally produces the substance in his or her body at a greater level than the average or elevated levels, which were signs of anti doping. Interesting. Okay, so it could just be that he just has naturally high levels of HGH and this 5D androstenediol. So that might be what it is.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Or he was cheating.

[Joe Rogan]

Could be some sneaky shit, you know, I mean, and did you ever see the documentary Icarus? There's a great documentary about the, the drug scandal in the Olympics in Russia. And so this was. What was this? 2016? Which was it, Jamie?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Was that the Olympics I was at? Yeah, I was there. And they banned the whole Russian team.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly.

[Shakur Stevenson]

I thought that was 2020.

[Joe Rogan]

They banned the Russian team, the follow up Olympics, I believe, because of the 2016. So this guy, Brian Fogel did this documentary. It's a crazy documentary. And the documentary was not supposed to be 2014 Winter Olympics. So what happened was Brian Fogle was doing a documentary. So he, he was a. He's a cyclist and a documentary guy. And so he said, I want to do a cycling event, a race, completely natural. And then I want to do it on steroids and I want to document it all. And then, you know, make this documentary on what is the difference and just show. Because cycling is a very dirty sport. Yeah, like Tour de France. Those guys, they put engines in their fucking bike to make it like easier to pedal. They do a lot of crazy shit, blood doping. So he does this naturally. And then he gets this guy. What was his name again? Gregory Rodchenko. Who was Rachenkov who was the head of the Russian Anti Doping Federation, but it was really a doping federation.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So what they were doing at the time was. So he starts working with this guy. This guy's telling him what steroids to take and how to get better. At the same time, the Russians get caught, like while he's filming all this, and that guy has to leave the country and that guy spills the beans and he tells them exactly what they did. And what they did was they took the clean urine, they made a hole in the wall. So the place where they stored all the urine, they made a hole in the wall where they could swap out the Russian urine and swap it in for good urine. And they found these micro abrasions on these supposedly unopenable jars. And so when they looked at it with a microscope, they said these. They figured out a way to open these jars. So they would pass it through the hole in the wall, open the jar, empty it out, put in clean piss and give it back to them. So essentially the entire team was doped up.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah. So basically that's why they said in the Olympics they wasn't sure if Russia was going to be able to compete.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, exactly. And so in Brazil, the follow up Olympics, the next Olympics, the entire team couldn't compete.

[Shakur Stevenson]

The cycling team?

[Joe Rogan]

No, the entire Russian team. All the. So the cycling thing was just this guy that was doing this documentary and he was using the head of the Russian Anti Doping Agency to help him do it, like openly. So it was just for a documentary. It wasn't like trying to win a race and cheat. He was like saying, let's see what you would give me and how much better my performance would be. So in the middle of doing all this, this scandal gets exposed and this guy who he's using is at the head of the scandal and then this guy tells him everything.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And it's nuts.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Russia did compete in the Olympics though.

[Joe Rogan]

They did compete in 2016.

[Shakur Stevenson]

They must have didn't compete in 2020 then.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it was one of the, the. I think they allowed individual athletes to compete whatever the subsequent Olympics was, but they didn't allow them to represent Russia.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Russia, okay. Yeah, because it was a guy from Russia in my weight class.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah.

[Shakur Stevenson]

And on 2016 Olympics, he definitely was kind of strong too.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, the Russians, I mean, they were, they were the beginning of all this stuff, like the Eastern European women weightlifting.

[Shakur Stevenson]

So they came up with the cheats.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, they figured it out. They figured it out early on. They've been doing it a long ass time yeah. So who knows? With better BV or any of these guys, it's. You've got to always assume that without something like vada or drug free sport or Usada, there's always going to be someone who's trying to figure out a way to get a competitive advantage.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Yeah, I hate it.

[Joe Rogan]

It's gross.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Hate it. It comes with it, though.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it comes with it. It is what it is. So anything else you want to cover before we wrap this up?

[Shakur Stevenson]

Nah, I ain't got nothing else. I think we good.

[Joe Rogan]

Listen, man, congratulations on everything. It's been beautiful to watch you fight. I'm a Giant fan and I'm happy to see after the Lopez fight, you get all the respect and the credit you deserve. And. And I can't wait to see what happens next.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Thank you. I appreciate you and I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to come on the podcast, one of the best podcasts in the world.

[Joe Rogan]

Thank you very much. My honor. All right, bye, everybody.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Jackson Hewitt handles your taxes and your stress. Inhale our no surprise price of 1:49 or less. Exhale. Paying more for complicated taxes you won't inhale. New tax law knowledge. Exhale. Missing out on your biggest refund? Certainly not. Don't miss paying 149 or less. Rest easy. Jackson Hewitt's got your taxes. Guaranteed limited time offer for new clients on the drill turns participating locations only.

[Joe Rogan]

[e-mail] 14930 years ago, blinds.com broke the

[Shakur Stevenson]

mold and made custom window treatments easy for everyone. Over 25 million windows later, we're celebrating by giving our customers up to 50% off site wide during our anniversary sale.

[Joe Rogan]

Whether you DIY it or want a

[Shakur Stevenson]

pro to handle everything from measure to

[Joe Rogan]

install, blinds.com has you covered. Shop online, access real design professionals and get free samples.

[Shakur Stevenson]

Thank you for 30amazing years.

[Joe Rogan]

Shop the anniversary sale now through March 11th and get up to 50% off site [e-mail].