The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

Episode 318: Autism, Academics, and Animals | Dr. Temple Grandin

Date: December 29, 2022
Guest: Dr. Temple Grandin
Host: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson

Overview

In this insightful episode, Dr. Jordan Peterson sits down with Dr. Temple Grandin—renowned animal behaviorist, autism advocate, and professor of animal sciences—to discuss the intricacies of visual thinking, the pitfalls of contemporary education for non-verbal thinkers, and the profound impact of practical skills and neurodiversity on both animal welfare and society at large. The conversation weaves together Grandin's personal experience with autism, her practical work revolutionizing livestock handling, and her advocacy for recognizing and cultivating diverse forms of intelligence in education and the workplace.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Visual Thinking vs. Verbal Thinking

(02:22–15:16)

• Grandin's Early Realization:
  Grandin only realized in her late 30s that most people don’t think in pictures as she does. As a child, she categorized animals by assembling detailed sensory information and images—a process now known as bottom-up thinking.

  “When I was in my 20s, I thought everybody thought in pictures the way I thought. I didn’t know other people thought in words until I was in my late 30s.” — Temple Grandin [02:22]

• Verbal Internal Argumentation:
  Peterson explains his own primarily verbal thought process as ongoing internal debates, contrasting with Grandin’s visual associations.

  “A lot of my thinking… takes the form of something like internal argumentation.” — Jordan B. Peterson [05:32]

• Associative and Vivid Visual Imagination:
  Grandin remarks on her vivid, almost photorealistic imagination and associative thinking:

  “No, it’s very, very vivid. It’s completely vivid.” — Temple Grandin [10:40]
  She likens her associational stream of thought to Google Images: given a keyword, she retrieves a cascading stream of related, concrete images.

• Example of Tesla and Mechanical Visualizers:
  Nikola Tesla described inventions appearing fully formed in his mind—Grandin relates, noting many industrial inventors she’s known had similar abilities.

• Ability to Notice Anomalies:
  Both discuss how anomaly detection differs for visual and verbal thinkers. Grandin’s talent is instantaneous in the real world, even fixing on minute details—a single pixel out on a screen—while Peterson’s anomaly detection is primarily conceptual or verbal.

2. The Loss of Practical Skills and Its Societal Impact

(15:16–35:42)

• Decline in Trades and Hands-on Skills:
  Grandin is passionate about how schools have phased out shop classes—the consequences being visible as skilled tradespeople retire and aren’t replaced:

  “The kids are playing video games in the basement on an autism diagnosis instead of fixing elevators. There’s a relationship here between what goes on with industrial things and what’s going on at school…” — Temple Grandin [15:18]

• Overemphasis on Math and Verbal Skills:
  The educational system's push toward university and academic achievement, especially heavy math requirements, screens out kids with mechanical talents:

  "Educators just don’t get it right." — Temple Grandin [17:10]

• Contrast with European Technical Education:
  Grandin praises countries like Holland and Italy, where students can choose between university and high-level technical tracks, fostering both innovation and manufacturing prowess.

3. Types of Visual Thinking and their Cognitive Profiles

(19:56–25:32, 35:37–43:20)

• Object Visualizers vs. Visual-Spatial Thinkers:
  Grandin distinguishes "object visualizers," who think in photorealistic images (artists, mechanics, animal handlers), from "visual-spatial" types who excel in abstract patterns (math, STEM).

  “The visual-spatial type, pattern thinking… do well in math, so they’re going the STEM route. But… the object visualizer… can just see and make mechanical equipment, art, photography, animals.” — Temple Grandin [19:56]

• Educational and Professional Implications:
  These types are often mismatched with educational expectations, especially with the loss of hands-on learning.

• Practical Recommendations:
  Grandin advises hands-on exposure to build both visual and practical skills:

  “Let’s get them out building things. The mistake I see is that kids are super good with Legos, but… don’t introduce tools. I was using tools by second grade.” — Temple Grandin [41:27]

• Dangers of Over-Abstraction:
  Peterson and Grandin warn against policies and education systems that privilege abstraction, neglecting practical particularization and the skills required to maintain real-world infrastructure.

4. Neurodiversity, Status, and Collaboration

(54:25–61:45)

• Status Competition and Dismissiveness:
  Peterson notes that abstract/verbal thinkers often dismiss the intelligence of practical workers, which is socially damaging:

  “Highly intellectual people … tend to be rather dismissive of the intelligence of more practical people, working people.” — Jordan B. Peterson [56:47]

• Need for Complementary Teams:
  Both agree that successful organizations need a mix of minds: object visualizers, visual-spatial/mathematical thinkers, and verbal organizers.

  “When we understand that different people think differently, they can work in teams where they can collaborate and have complementary skills.” — Temple Grandin [104:20]

5. Animal Perception and Practical Design Innovations

(69:14–96:12)

• Grandin’s Breakthroughs in Animal Handling:
  Her animal welfare insights came from literally and imaginatively seeing through the eyes of the animals:

  “I got down in the chutes to see what they were seeing, and I would take pictures down inside… and people thought that was kind of crazy.” — Temple Grandin [69:51]

• Identification of Stressors:
  Cattle, as prey species, are hyper-reactive to anomalies like shadows, moving objects, or unfamiliar items, often causing logistical issues in meat plants.

• Practical Auditing and Fixes:
  Grandin’s work moved the industry from using “broken equipment, electric prods… and screaming at cattle” to calm, audited, measurable improvements. She established simple but effective audit measures (“no more than 3% vocalizing,” “95% shot on the first attempt,” etc.) that revolutionized animal welfare standards.

6. Activism, Career Advice, and Broader Educational Reform

(93:09–105:11)

• From Abstract Justice to Practical Activism:
  Grandin cautions against vague activism and instead encourages people to focus on practical, achievable changes:

  “I talk to a lot of young people that want to do activism … and it’s way too broad. I want justice in the world… and I say, why don’t you do something more targeted?” — Temple Grandin [93:40]

• Exposure and Mentoring:
  She emphasizes early, hands-on exposure in childhood (tools, crafts, art, animal handling) and the critical importance of mentoring in skilled trades.

• Restoring Hands-On Education:
  Grandin strongly advocates for reinstating a wide spectrum of practical classes (art, shop, sewing, auto mechanics, theater) in schools for all children.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Decline of Mechanical Trades:

  "What's happening now is the little shops are not forming. And that's why we're importing all this equipment from Holland and Italy." — Temple Grandin [34:04]

• On the Dangers of Over-Abstraction:

  “We need all the different kinds of minds. … You need the whole team.” — Temple Grandin [60:37]

• When Faced With Philosophical Abstraction:

  “I really don't understand anything that you just said. I don't know how to associate it with anything practical. And I'm completely unable to answer your question.” — Temple Grandin [Paraphrased by Peterson, 105:54]

• On Her Motivation:

  “I was serving the goal of improving animal welfare. And I bent over backwards to do reverse conflict of interest.” — Temple Grandin [92:32]

• On the Importance of the Practical:

  “Kids today are totally separated in the world of physical things. They're not getting out and observing stuff out in nature. This is part of the problem.” — Temple Grandin [41:27]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:22] — Grandin's realization about thinking in pictures vs. words.
• [15:18] — The link between loss of shop classes, autism, and the trades crisis.
• [19:56] — Differentiating object visualizers vs. visual-spatial mathematicians.
• [35:37] — Importance of early practical exposure; examples from construction and European education.
• [41:27] — Grandin’s advice for developing children's hands-on skills.
• [54:25] — Status issues and neurodiversity in intelligence.
• [69:51] — How visual thinking led Grandin to improve cattle handling.
• [84:40] — Specific process improvements in slaughterhouses.
• [93:40] — Advice for young activists: specificity and practicality.
• [104:20] — Final summary: the necessity of all kinds of minds and practical education.

Conclusion

Dr. Temple Grandin’s unique lived experience and professional achievements provide an essential perspective on the value of visual and practical thinking—not just for autistic individuals but for society’s overall well-being and industry resilience. The conversation is a powerful call to recognize, respect, and reintegrate practical intelligence into our social fabric, especially through education.

“When we understand that different people think differently, they can work in teams where they can collaborate and have complementary skills.” — Temple Grandin [104:20]