Podcast Summary: The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast – Episode 502: "Angry and Red: Color as Emotion" Featuring Mark Changizi

Release Date: November 28, 2024

In Episode 502 of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson engages in a profound discussion with evolutionary biologist and psychologist Mark Changizi. The conversation delves into the intricate relationships between perception, emotion, language, and social behavior, offering fresh insights into how these elements shape individual and cultural identities.

1. Introduction and Background

[00:14] Jordan Peterson kicks off the episode by announcing his new book, We Who Wrestle with Perceptions of the Divine, which explores biblical stories and bridges abstract ideas with practical life applications. He introduces Mark Changizi, author of Expressly Human, highlighting their shared interests in evolutionary biology and psychology, particularly concerning perception, emotion, language, and mass group behavior.

2. Evolutionary Biology and the Function of Perception

The discussion begins with [03:15] Mark Changizi outlining his background in mathematics and cognitive science, emphasizing his focus on why certain traits—like vision—have evolved to serve specific functions.

a. Design vs. Teleology in Evolution

[04:01] Changizi expresses frustration with the evolutionary biology community's resistance to functional explanations, labeling them as "just so stories" and equating them to teleology. He argues that understanding the function of traits is crucial and that rejecting design undermines the foundational principles of natural selection.

[05:06] Peterson adds that this rejection often aligns with far-left ideologies that promote radical social constructionism, denying inherent human nature and making behaviors seemingly infinitely malleable.

3. Visual Perception: Beyond Traditional Theories

a. Ecological Perception vs. Functional Purpose

[14:01] Peterson introduces pragmatic philosophy's influence on his understanding of perception, referencing Gibson's ecological approach. He posits that perception serves as a navigation aid, focusing on pathways, tools, and obstacles.

[15:30] Changizi distinguishes his perspective as a "lowercase ecological vision" advocate, emphasizing that perception cannot be understood without considering its evolutionary function. He challenges the traditional frugivore theory of color vision evolution, arguing that the close proximity of color sensitivities in human vision suggests a different purpose.

b. Color Vision as an Emotional Sensing Mechanism

[17:45] Changizi presents his hypothesis that trichromatic vision evolved primarily to detect emotional signals reflected in skin coloration, such as blood oxygenation levels indicating health and emotional states.

Notable Quote:

“Our color vision, our primate color vision is an empath sense. It's only by virtue of that that we can see these blushes and blanches.”
– Mark Changizi ([19:00])

[20:38] Changizi acknowledges the difficulty in empirically testing whether colorblind individuals are less adept at emotional processing related to skin tones but notes anecdotal evidence supporting his theory.

4. Emotion Detection and Social Signaling

a. Honest Signals and Reputation

[27:15] Changizi defines "honest signals" as involuntary displays of emotion that convey genuine states, such as blushing indicating embarrassment or anger, which help in building trust and facilitating honest negotiations.

[28:52] Peterson connects this to genuine emotional expressions like laughter and smiles, emphasizing their role in signaling true intentions and fostering trust.

b. Social Capital and Negotiation

[34:16] Changizi uses the analogy of poker to explain how confidence and humility serve as stakes in social negotiations, balancing reputation and fostering long-term cooperative relationships.

Notable Quote:

“The emotional expressions that we have are exactly what's needed to engage in exactly the kind of generalized poker game that social animals need to communicate and stake things.”
– Mark Changizi ([55:30])

5. Evolution of Language and Cultural Technologies

a. Language as an Extension of Emotional Signals

[60:25] Changizi challenges the notion of language as a purely propositional system, arguing instead that it is deeply rooted in emotional expression. He contends that language evolved by adapting existing emotional signaling mechanisms to facilitate complex social interactions.

Notable Quote:

“The real language that we speak... is ultimately all of these emotional expressions being done in very complicated ways.”
– Mark Changizi ([61:09])

b. Reading and Writing as Cultural Evolution

[86:53] Changizi discusses how writing systems evolved to mimic natural visual patterns, leveraging our evolved object recognition systems to make reading intuitive. He argues that cultural evolution has harnessed biological predispositions to develop complex technologies like writing and music.

[97:46] Changizi further explains that modern abilities, such as reading and music appreciation, are not direct products of our biological evolution but rather results of cultural engineering that repurposes our perceptual systems.

6. Online Anonymity and Social Interaction

a. Impact on Reputation Systems

[68:02] Changizi addresses concerns about online anonymity, suggesting that pseudonymous accounts with stable identities can maintain reputation systems similar to real-life interactions. However, he acknowledges that truly anonymous accounts can disrupt these systems by allowing individuals to act without reputational consequences.

[71:13] Peterson raises concerns about how anonymity online leads to pathological behavior and polarization, as individuals can express extreme views without fear of consequences.

Notable Quote:

“Reputation is another decentralized currency. Social narratives preserve reputation over time, similar to how blockchain maintains transaction history.”
– Mark Changizi ([62:27])

b. Algorithmic Influence and Polarization

[77:34] Peterson and [78:02] Changizi discuss how social media algorithms can inadvertently amplify extreme, low-reputation voices, contributing to increased political polarization and hostile interactions that are uncommon in face-to-face social settings.

7. Future Work and Conclusions

a. Vision Revolution and the Evolution of Reading

[84:26] Changizi previews his upcoming work, Vision Revolution, which explores how cultural evolution has shaped modern cognitive abilities like reading and music. He posits that these technologies co-opted our natural perceptual systems, enhancing our cultural and social capabilities beyond our biological origins.

Notable Quote:

“All of the things that we mistakenly think of ourselves as human today are really human 2.0s, products of cultural engineering.”
– Mark Changizi ([98:54])

b. Final Thoughts

[101:42] Changizi emphasizes that humans remain fundamentally animals, with cultural advancements building upon our evolutionary foundations. He critiques dominant linguistic theories, advocating for an understanding of language as a culturally evolved extension of emotional and perceptual systems.

[102:36] Peterson concludes the episode by highlighting Changizi's conflict with social media censorship and the broader implications for online communication and reputation.

Key Takeaways

• Color Vision Evolution: Mark Changizi proposes that trichromatic vision evolved not primarily for fruit detection but as an empathic sense to read emotional and health-related signals in others.

• Emotion as Honest Signals: Emotional expressions like blushing and smiling serve as honest signals that facilitate trust and cooperation within social groups.

• Reputation and Social Capital: Effective negotiation and social interaction rely on the ability to stake social capital through emotional signaling, akin to strategic betting in games like poker.

• Language and Cultural Evolution: Language and writing systems have evolved by repurposing our innate perceptual and emotional systems, rather than arising from dedicated language instincts.

• Online Anonymity Challenges: Anonymity and pseudonymity online disrupt traditional reputation systems, potentially leading to increased hostility and polarization in digital communication.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Mark Changizi on Trichromatic Vision:

   “Our color vision, our primate color vision is an empath sense. It's only by virtue of that that we can see these blushes and blanches.”
   – Mark Changizi ([19:00])

2. Changizi on Honest Signals:

   “The emotional expressions that we have are exactly what's needed to engage in exactly the kind of generalized poker game that social animals need to communicate and stake things.”
   – Mark Changizi ([55:30])

3. Changizi on Language:

   “The real language that we speak... is ultimately all of these emotional expressions being done in very complicated ways.”
   – Mark Changizi ([61:09])

4. Changizi on Cultural Evolution:

   “All of the things that we mistakenly think of ourselves as human today are really human 2.0s, products of cultural engineering.”
   – Mark Changizi ([98:54])

This episode offers a compelling exploration of how our evolved perceptual and emotional systems underpin complex social behaviors and cultural technologies. Mark Changizi's insights challenge conventional evolutionary theories, presenting a nuanced view of human cognition and social interaction shaped by both biology and cultural innovation.