Podcast Summary: The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Episode 512. "Time, Space, and the Miraculous" | Dr. Brian Keating

In this illuminating episode of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson engages in a profound dialogue with Dr. Brian Keating, a renowned cosmologist, exploring the intricate interplay between science, ethics, education, and the human experience. The conversation delves deep into how scientific pursuits are inherently tied to ethical frameworks, the role of wonder in scientific discovery, and the challenges faced by scientists in maintaining integrity and ethical standards.

1. Peterson Academy and Mass Education

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson introduces the success of Peterson Academy, highlighting its mission to provide high-quality, accessible education in fields like astronomy and cosmology. Dr. Brian Keating discusses his involvement in the Academy, emphasizing the platform's ability to bring expert knowledge to a vast audience at minimal cost.

[00:40] Dr. Brian Keating: "We talked about the utility of the opportunity to bring high quality mass education everywhere at very low cost, very well produced and at low cost."

The Academy boasts approximately 40,000 students, with courses by Dr. Keating receiving significant acclaim for their depth and accessibility.

2. The Relationship Between Science and Ethics

A central theme of the discussion revolves around the intrinsic link between scientific inquiry and ethical considerations. Peterson and Keating explore how science is not value-neutral but is embedded within an a priori ethical framework that prioritizes the pursuit of truth and beauty for the betterment of humanity.

[05:10] Dr. Brian Keating: "For science to exist, it has to not only be embedded in an a priori ethical framework, but that the scientists who are practicing science have to be oriented by that ethic."

They argue that genuine scientific endeavors are predicated on ethical decisions that place humanity's welfare above individual or political gains.

3. Wonder and Awe in Scientific Exploration

The conversation highlights the diminishing sense of wonder in the scientific community due to the routinization of astronomical phenomena. Both speakers lament how familiarity with cosmic events like eclipses leads to a loss of the initial sense of awe and curiosity.

[07:15] Dr. Brian Keating: "We have about 40,000 students and Dr. Keating's offerings are very popular and deservedly so."

Peterson reflects on personal experiences with the night sky, noting how reduced visibility due to light pollution impacts the psychological and existential well-being of individuals.

[08:40] Jordan Peterson: "It's a weird fact really, isn't it? ... It's like, what the hell's going on there. That it produces that experience of awe."

4. Ethical Orientation and the Scientist's Role

Dr. Keating emphasizes that the pursuit of scientific knowledge must align with ethical standards to prevent the erosion of integrity within the scientific community. They discuss the peril of scientists subordinating their quest for truth to career advancements or external rewards.

[20:19] Dr. Brian Keating: "Science is an infinite game comprised of all these finite games. Nobel Prize. It only goes to three people."

Peterson underscores the importance of balancing the embeddedness in scientific narratives with a critical understanding to avoid manipulation and loss of genuine engagement.

[17:28] Jordan Peterson: "If you just go to the gym and work out and you never recover, you can't fully grow to your potential."

5. The Infinite Game of Science

The dialogue introduces the concept of science as an infinite game, where the pursuit of knowledge and understanding is unending. They contrast this with finite games, such as securing tenure or winning awards, which can sometimes distort the true objectives of scientific inquiry.

[20:18] Jordan Peterson: "If you master the finite games, then I will win the infinite game."

This perspective encourages scientists to focus on continuous learning and exploration rather than transient victories.

6. Science, Religion, and the Search for Meaning

Peterson and Keating explore the boundaries and intersections between scientific rationalism and religious belief. They discuss how scientific advancements challenge traditional religious narratives but also how ethical frameworks are essential for meaningful scientific work.

[24:29] Jordan Peterson: "One of the things I've been trying to work out conceptually ... science itself is not science without maintaining its embeddedness in an underlying upward striving ethos."

The conversation touches on the fine-tuning argument and its implications for the existence of a higher power, with both agreeing that while science can inform these debates, it cannot conclusively prove or disprove the divine.

[28:23] Jordan Peterson: "Science itself has to be embedded in an a priori moral framework that is not itself science."

7. The Ethical Failings of Renowned Scientists

A candid discussion unfolds about the personal flaws and ethical shortcomings of some of the most esteemed scientists in history, such as Richard Feynman and Albert Einstein. They argue that while these individuals made significant scientific contributions, their personal lives often reflected a lack of ethical integrity.

[84:04] Jordan Peterson: "You are pointing to an a priori distinction between the things that made them truly great scientists ... and all the flaws that are part and parcel of being a human but aren't in the same category."

This segment underscores the necessity of separating scientific achievements from personal morality and the dangers of idolizing scientists without acknowledging their humanity.

8. The Role of Tradition and Community in Moral Development

Drawing from Jewish traditions, Peterson and Keating discuss how rituals, commandments, and community practices foster a sense of responsibility, discipline, and ethical behavior. They contrast this with secular or atheistic viewpoints, which they argue often lack this structured ethical foundation.

[73:35] Jordan Peterson: "Well, it's the tradition that teaches us ... sacrifice as a foundation for community."

They highlight the importance of traditions in shaping moral compasses and the potential existential void that can arise in their absence.

9. Science Communication and Public Engagement

Addressing the challenges scientists face in communicating complex ideas to the public, Dr. Keating emphasizes the lack of formal training in public communication within the scientific community. He advocates for scientists to take personal responsibility in bridging the gap between scientific knowledge and public understanding.

[32:55] Dr. Brian Keating: "We don't get any ethical training. It's all implicit. It's implicit that you're just going to learn it."

Peterson echoes this sentiment, stressing the importance of authenticity and engagement in lectures to foster genuine intellectual exploration.

[35:20] Jordan Peterson: "I'm engaging in the process of intellectual exploration ... that's exactly like the equivalent of that."

10. Conclusion: The Symbiosis of Science and Ethical Striving

The episode culminates in a reflection on the symbiotic relationship between scientific inquiry and ethical striving. Peterson and Keating advocate for a balanced approach where scientific endeavors are guided by a strong ethical framework, ensuring that the pursuit of knowledge serves the greater good of humanity.

[83:00] Jordan Peterson: "If you can maintain that, wonder if you can maintain that curiosity, and you are undeterred by failure."

They conclude by emphasizing the importance of continuous questioning, ethical commitment, and the harmonious integration of scientific and moral advancements.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Brian Keating [05:10]: "For science to exist, it has to not only be embedded in an a priori ethical framework, but that the scientists who are practicing science have to be oriented by that ethic."

• Jordan Peterson [08:40]: "It's a weird fact really, isn't it? ... It's like, what the hell's going on there. That it produces that experience of awe."

• Dr. Brian Keating [20:19]: "Science is an infinite game comprised of all these finite games. Nobel Prize. It only goes to three people."

• Jordan Peterson [28:29]: "One of the things I've been trying to work out conceptually ... science itself is not science without maintaining its embeddedness in an underlying upward striving ethos."

• Jordan Peterson [84:04]: "You are pointing to an a priori distinction between the things that made them truly great scientists ... and all the flaws that are part and parcel of being a human but aren't in the same category."

This episode serves as a compelling exploration of how scientific pursuits are deeply intertwined with ethical considerations and the enduring human quest for meaning and understanding. Dr. Peterson and Dr. Keating provide valuable insights into fostering a scientific community that values integrity, wonder, and the betterment of humanity.