Podcast Title: The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
Host: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson
Guest: Dr. Corey DeAngelis
Episode: 529. Public Schools and the Battle For Children | Corey DeAngelis
Release Date: March 13, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 529 of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson engages in a profound discussion with Dr. Corey DeAngelis, a respected education policy expert specializing in school choice. The conversation delves into the systemic failures of public education, the monopolistic structures that sustain these failures, and the transformative potential of school choice programs. Throughout the episode, Peterson and DeAngelis explore empirical studies, policy implications, and strategic avenues to reshape the educational landscape in the United States.

The Problem with Public Schools

Monopolistic Structures in Education

Dr. Peterson opens the dialogue by highlighting the various monopolies entrenched within the public education system:

• Geographic Monopoly: Families are compelled to send their children to schools based solely on their residential location, eliminating genuine choice.

  Jordan Peterson [00:09]: "There's a geographic monopoly and there's a state mandated monopoly because you have to send your kids to school, and then there's a teacher certification monopoly."

• State-Mandated Monopoly: The legal requirement to enroll children in public schools restricts alternatives.

  Corey DeAngelis [00:09]: "And that trickles down from the university level into the K12 system."

• Teacher Certification Monopoly: The educational faculties maintain strict control over teacher qualifications, stifling diversity and innovation.

Consequences of Monopolies

These monopolistic structures result in several adverse outcomes:

• High Costs and Low Efficiency: Public schools are extraordinarily expensive yet deliver disappointing educational outcomes.

• Ideological Indoctrination: The dominance of progressive ideologies within educational faculties leads to ideological warping of students.

• Lack of Accountability: Without competition, there is little incentive for public schools to improve or innovate.

School Choice and Its Benefits

Empirical Evidence Supporting School Choice

Dr. DeAngelis presents compelling data from various studies demonstrating the efficacy of school choice programs:

• Reduction in Crime and Teenage Pregnancy: Participation in voucher and charter school programs correlates with a significant decrease in crime rates and teenage pregnancies.

  Corey DeAngelis [00:17]: "We found a reduction in crime, but also a 38% reduction in paternity disputes, which could be caused by out of wedlock births or teenage pregnancies."

• Increased Graduation Rates: Students in school choice programs exhibit higher probabilities of graduating from high school.

  Corey DeAngelis [00:13]: "The findings were less pregnancy, less crime, and higher probability of graduating."

• Case Study – New York City Charter Schools: A lottery-based experiment showed that male students who entered charter schools had a 100% decrease in the likelihood of committing crimes during the study period.

  Corey DeAngelis [00:17]: "A charter school experiment... decreased the likelihood of crime for male students by 100%."

Economic and Parental Rights Perspectives

Dr. Peterson and Dr. DeAngelis discuss school choice from both economic and parental rights angles:

• Economic Efficiency: Competition introduced by school choice leads to better resource allocation, reduced administrative spending, and overall improved public school performance.

  Jordan Peterson [09:39]: "There's no competition, there's no real incentive to do the hard work that produces improvement."

• Parental Rights: Emphasizing that parents are best positioned to make informed decisions about their children's education, advocating for funding mechanisms that empower parents rather than bind them to underperforming public schools.

  Corey DeAngelis [01:14]: "Children should be watched over by those who have their best interests most firmly at heart, and that's inevitably going to be parents."

Critique of Faculties of Education

Leftist Dominance and Ideological Control

Dr. Peterson criticizes the faculties of education for their radical leftist orientations, which he argues undermine educational quality and promote ideological conformity:

• Marxist Orientation: The Department of Educational Reform at the University of Arkansas, where Dr. DeAngelis earned his PhD, is cited as an exception to the predominantly Marxist educational institutions.

  Corey DeAngelis [05:05]: "I didn't. It was actually the Department of education reform... 99% of education PhDs are Marxist institutions."

• Influence of Teacher Unions: Teacher unions wield significant power over state budgets (up to 50%) and educational policies, stifling reform and perpetuating inefficiency.

  Jordan Peterson [05:30]: "Republicans don't have a hope in hell of ever winning the culture war if they allow faculties of education to maintain their hammerlock on teacher certification."

Implications for Educational Quality

The monopolistic control of educational faculties leads to:

• Low Standards for Teacher Certification: Extremely low SAT scores among education faculty indicate a lack of rigor and competence.

• Increased Administrative Overhead: A disproportionate increase in administrative positions without corresponding improvements in educational outcomes.

  Corey DeAngelis [35:34]: "Administrators have increased by about 95%."

Impact on Low-Income Families

Access to Quality Education Through Choice

School choice programs are particularly beneficial for low-income families who are often confined to poorly performing public schools:

• Equalizing Opportunities: By allowing funding to follow the student, low-income families can access higher-quality private or charter schools, breaking the cycle of multi-generational poverty and educational underachievement.

  Corey DeAngelis [80:28]: "There's a really interesting story about how DeSantis actually won in 2018... it's benefiting over 100,000 kids at the time."

Case Studies Supporting Benefits for Low-Income Families

• District of Columbia Voucher Program: Studies indicate significant benefits for predominantly low-income and minority students, countering narratives that school choice primarily aids affluent, white families.

  Corey DeAngelis [52:06]: "The average household income was about $30,000 per year... about 95% of the kids were black or Hispanic."

• Political Endorsements: High-profile endorsements from political figures underscore the program's impact on diverse demographics.

  Corey DeAngelis [76:07]: "Trump endorsed the book... my senator from Texas... she sends her own kid to a private school."

The Role of Competition in Improving Public Schools

Competitive Pressure Enhances Public School Performance

Introducing competition through school choice leads to substantial improvements in public schools' performance by fostering accountability and encouraging efficient use of resources:

• Resource Allocation: Studies show that in competitive environments, public schools allocate more funds directly to classrooms and educators rather than administrative expenses.

  Corey DeAngelis [37:02]: "26 of the 29 studies on this nationwide find statistically significant positive effects of private school choice competition on the outcomes in the public schools."

• Examples of Success: Florida, with its robust school choice programs, has seen public school rankings improve dramatically while spending remains below the national average.

  Corey DeAngelis [37:44]: "In places like Florida, there is a control group... now they spend 27% less than the national average but have school choice for everybody."

Mechanisms of Improvement

• Cost-Effectiveness: Lower administrative costs allow more funds to be directed towards instructional quality.

• Teacher Retention and Motivation: Competitive pressures necessitate better compensation and working conditions for teachers to retain high-quality educators.

  Corey DeAngelis [37:44]: "They're going to allocate those additional dollars instead of towards administrators, they start to allocate them towards the classroom, towards the teachers."

Head Start Programs: A Historical and Contemporary Analysis

Historical Context and Long-Term Impact

Originally, Head Start programs aimed to provide early educational opportunities to disadvantaged children with the hope of long-term academic and behavioral benefits:

• Positive Behavioral Outcomes: Early studies indicated that children who participated in Head Start showed reduced crime rates, lower instances of teenage pregnancy, and higher graduation rates later in life.

  Corey DeAngelis [07:58]: "Head Start accelerated cognitive performance... by grade six, there was no effect, but there were positive behavioral outcomes."

Recent Challenges and Negative Findings

Contrary to earlier optimistic reports, recent randomized control trials (RCTs) have presented unfavorable outcomes:

• Tennessee RCT Findings: A recent study found that participation in Head Start was associated with worse academic and behavioral outcomes by sixth grade.

  Corey DeAngelis [52:16]: "They found that those who won the lottery were worse off academically and behaviorally by the end of sixth grade."

Implications for Early Childhood Education

These conflicting findings suggest that while early interventions might offer temporary cognitive boosts, they may not sustain long-term academic or behavioral improvements without broader systemic changes.

Strategic Approaches and Future Plans

Terminology and Framing

Dr. DeAngelis emphasizes the importance of framing the school choice debate in terms of "funding students, not systems" to shift the narrative and place the onus on public schools to justify their funding:

Corey DeAngelis [48:39]: "Funding students, not systems."

Bipartisan Strategy and Political Mobilization

Leveraging bipartisan arguments and strategic communication efforts has been pivotal in advancing school choice:

• Bipartisan Arguments: Combining libertarian ideals of limited government with civil rights perspectives to appeal to a broader audience.

• Political Endorsements and Movements: Collaborations with influential politicians and participation in state-level policy changes have amplified the movement.

  Corey DeAngelis [58:34]: "Trump won the parent vote by nine points... education voters."

Expansion of Educational Options

Innovative models like micro schools and education savings accounts are emerging as viable alternatives to traditional public schooling:

• Micro Schools: Small-scale, flexible educational settings that cater to diverse learning needs and preferences.

• Education Savings Accounts (ESAs): Vouchers that parents can use for various educational services, including private schooling and homeschooling.

  Corey DeAngelis [72:48]: "Education savings accounts... making available to everybody... families signed up right when they opened up the gates."

Addressing Certification and Teacher Quality

Reforming teacher certification processes and reducing bureaucratic barriers are essential for enhancing educational quality across all schooling options.

Conclusion

The episode underscores a critical examination of the U.S. public education system, revealing its inherent inefficiencies, monopolistic constraints, and ideological biases. Dr. Corey DeAngelis provides robust empirical evidence advocating for school choice as a transformative solution that empowers parents, improves educational outcomes, and fosters accountability through competition. The discussion calls for a multifaceted approach, combining policy reform, strategic communication, and grassroots mobilization to dismantle the existing monopolies and cultivate a diverse, high-quality educational ecosystem.

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Peterson [12:09]: "And you have competition, you don't have a monopoly, you have to do something efficiently."

• Corey DeAngelis [13:24]: "Professors there... Patrick Wolf did a lot of the early evaluations of voucher programs."

• Jordan Peterson [30:31]: "We found that the best predictor of being a politically correct authoritarian... was low verbal iq."

• Corey DeAngelis [37:02]: "Public school teacher salaries slightly go up... allocate those additional dollars towards the classroom, towards the teachers."

• Jordan Peterson [74:17]: "If you're going to spend the money, we might as well fund the people as opposed to."

This comprehensive discussion between Dr. Peterson and Dr. DeAngelis illuminates the urgent need for educational reform through school choice, backed by rigorous research and strategic advocacy. It presents a persuasive argument for dismantling entrenched monopolistic practices and fostering a competitive, choice-driven educational system that serves the best interests of all children, especially those in underserved communities.