530. Failure or Success in the Time of Trump | Jim Balsillie

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

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Published: Mon Mar 17 2025

Jordan Peterson sits down with retired co-founder and co-CEO of Research in Motion, known predominately for the BlackBerry. They discuss how Balsillie helped transition the world into the smartphone age, Canada’s faltering economic performance (well before Trump’s trade war), why America is taking these actions now, and the ideas of Mark Carney (Trudeau on steroids). Mr. Balsillie is the retired chairman and co-CEO of Research in Motion (BlackBerry), a technology company he scaled from an idea to $20 billion in sales globally. His private investment office includes global and domestic technology investments. He is the co-founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking in New York and founder of the Council of Canadian Innovators based in Toronto, the Digital Governance Council in Ottawa, and the Centre for International Governance Innovation in Waterloo, as well as the Centre for Digital Rights, the Balsillie School of International Affairs, the Arctic Research Foundation, and...

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Episode 530. Failure or Success in the Time of Trump | Jim Balsillie

Introduction

In Episode 530 of "The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast," Dr. Jordan Peterson engages in a profound discussion with Jim Balsillie, co-CEO of Research in Motion (the creators of BlackBerry) and a prominent Canadian entrepreneur. Released on March 17, 2025, this episode delves into Canada's economic challenges, the shifting global economy, and the impact of President Trump's policies on the nation. The conversation offers a critical analysis of Canada's economic trajectory over the past three decades and explores potential pathways to reclaim prosperity.

1. Canada's Economic Decline: 1990s to Present

Jim Balsillie outlines a stark decline in Canada's economic performance over the last 30 years. Once a prosperous nation competing robustly with the United States, Canada now ranks last among the top 50 developed countries in GDP per capita growth over the past decade. The gap between Canadian and American productivity has widened, with Canadians earning only 60 cents for every dollar the Americans make. Balsillie emphasizes the dire consequences of this trend, citing high housing prices, strained healthcare and education systems, and increasing food insecurity affecting one in four Canadians.

"We rank at the bottom of the pack with regards to the developed nations and we're now making 60 cents for every dollar that the Americans make in terms of our production." [00:16]

2. Shift to a Knowledge-Based and AI-Driven Economy

The conversation highlights the pivotal shift from a production-based economy to a knowledge and information-driven economy. Balsillie argues that Canada failed to adapt to this transformation, primarily due to inadequate management of intellectual property (IP) and data in the AI era. This oversight has allowed foreign tech giants, particularly American companies like Google, to exfiltrate Canadian innovations and dominate the AI landscape.

"In the 1990s and since then the goods themselves virtualized and Canada signed agreements pertaining to that. But for some reason, this is also what I'd like to understand. For some reason we didn't really understand what had changed or what we'd signed." [19:55]

3. Impact of NAFTA and TRIPS Agreements

Balsillie critiques the 1994 NAFTA and TRIPS agreements, asserting that they marked Canada's "original sin." These agreements emphasized intellectual property rights and laid the groundwork for a monopolized knowledge economy. However, Canada failed to integrate these changes into its economic policies effectively, leading to the erosion of domestic productivity and innovation.

"1994, early 1994, Canada signed two agreements. The NAFTA Agreement with extensive intellectual property provisions, which was new, and the TRIPS Agreement of the World Trade Organization, which was the globalization of the IP system." [14:35]

4. Political Leadership: Trudeau, Mark Carney, and Pierre Poilievre

The discussion shifts to Canada's political landscape, examining leadership transitions and their implications for the economy. Peterson introduces Mark Carney, the incoming leader replacing Justin Trudeau, and Pierre Poilievre, the Conservative contender. Balsillie criticizes Carney's approach, labeling it as an extension of Trudeau's policies without addressing the core economic issues.

"Mark Carney has stepped in. He used to be the governor of the Bank of England as well as the Bank of Canada... we're going to make this country roar if we choose wisely." [11:58]

5. President Trump's Impact on Canada

President Trump’s provocative stance towards Canada, including tariffs and the suggestion to make Canada the "51st state," serves as a catalyst for deeper introspection within the Canadian leadership. Balsillie contends that Trump's aggressive policies have inadvertently awakened Canadians to their nation's vulnerabilities, compelling them to reconsider their economic strategies.

"Trump has put the cat among the canaries in Canada... He's rampaging around, for better or worse, like a bull in the china shop." [00:04]

6. Two-Legged Race Metaphor: Production and Knowledge Economies

Balsillie introduces the "two-legged race" metaphor to illustrate the dual aspects of modern economies: the traditional production-based economy and the emergent knowledge and AI-driven economy. He emphasizes that Canada has neglected the second leg, leading to economic subordination.

"We become Puerto Rico without a passport... a beautiful country that both you and I love, but it's an expensive country." [29:07]

7. The Role of Intellectual Property and Data in Economic Competitiveness

A critical examination of IP and data management reveals Canada's failure to capitalize on its intellectual assets. Balsillie points out that while Canada houses top AI research centers, the lack of robust IP policies has allowed foreign companies to exploit these innovations without equitable returns to Canada.

"The taxpayers in Canada spent 30 years funding the fundamental artificial intelligence students at University of Toronto and in Alberta... we gave essentially all that away to other US tech companies." [46:56]

8. Policies and Future Directions: Conservatives vs. Liberals

Balsillie contrasts the approaches of current Liberal leadership and the Conservative candidate, Pierre Poilievre. While Mark Carney focuses on environmental policies without addressing IP and AI, Poilievre is portrayed as a more promising leader who advocates for economic sovereignty, IP ownership, and strategic economic policies to reverse Canada's decline.

"Pierre Poilievre is introducing the second leg... we need to own our ideas, we need to control our data to build our companies." [95:30]

9. Building Economic Capacity and Leadership

The conversation underscores the necessity for Canada to rebuild its economic councils and engage with expertise in IP and AI. Balsillie advocates for initiatives like the Public Policy Shield Initiative to cultivate young scholars and thinkers capable of architecting a prosperous future for Canada.

"If Pierre Poilievre or Carney chooses to embrace these true experts to design a proper two-legged race, then I think we're gonna be okay." [104:37]

10. Conclusions and Call to Action

Jim Balsillie concludes with a clarion call for Canada to seize the moment presented by President Trump's policies to overhaul its economic strategies. He warns of catastrophic consequences if Canada continues on its current path but remains optimistic about the potential for rejuvenation through informed leadership and strategic policy changes.

"We actually have the opportunity to make this country roar if we choose wisely." [34:53]
"We have to have democratic discourse, not bullying... Our future can be the best yet to come. But if we fail in that, the failure will be marked. Yeah, really bad." [100:49]

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

Jordan Peterson [00:00]: "President Trump has proclaimed that my country should become the 51st state."
Jim Balsillie [14:35]: "In 1994, early 1994, Canada signed two agreements... the globalization of the IP system."
Jim Balsillie [19:55]: "In the 1990s and since then the goods themselves virtualized and Canada signed agreements pertaining to that."
Jim Balsillie [29:07]: "We become Puerto Rico without a passport... a beautiful country that both you and I love, but it's an expensive country."
Jim Balsillie [46:56]: "The taxpayers in Canada spent 30 years funding the fundamental artificial intelligence students... we gave essentially all that away to other US tech companies."
Jim Balsillie [95:30]: "Pierre Poilievre is introducing the second leg... we need to own our ideas, we need to control our data to build our companies."
Jim Balsillie [104:37]: "If Pierre Poilievre or Carney chooses to embrace these true experts to design a proper two-legged race, then I think we're gonna be okay."

Final Thoughts

Episode 530 of Jordan Peterson's podcast with Jim Balsillie offers a compelling critique of Canada's economic policies and leadership over the past three decades. Balsillie highlights the critical mistakes in adapting to a knowledge-based economy, the mishandling of intellectual property, and the lack of strategic economic planning. He urges Canadian leaders to embrace expert-driven policies and rebuild economic structures to restore Canada's prosperity and sovereignty in an increasingly competitive global landscape. This insightful conversation serves as a wake-up call for Canadians to reassess their nation's economic strategies and leadership to navigate the challenges of the modern world effectively.