Summary of "The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast" Episode 531: What Can’t Be Undone | Detransitioner Clementine Breen

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
• Host: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson
• Episode: 531. What Can’t Be Undone | Detransitioner Clementine Breen
• Release Date: March 20, 2025

Introduction

In episode 531 of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson interviews Clementine Breen, a 20-year-old UCLA theater student who has undergone detransition after initially transitioning as a child and early adolescent. The discussion delves into Clementine's personal journey, the medical interventions she underwent, the impact of her childhood trauma, and her subsequent legal actions against key medical professionals involved in her transition.

Background: Early Life and Trauma

Clementine begins by sharing her traumatic childhood experience:

[10:27] Clementine Breen: "So just to give, like, enough context, when I was about six years old, I was sexually abused."

This abuse by an older classmate profoundly affected her mental health and her perception of her own body and gender identity, setting the stage for her later experiences with gender dysphoria.

Onset of Gender Dysphoria and Transition

As Clementine approached puberty, she experienced significant anxiety and discomfort with her body:

[00:06] Clementine Breen: "In my referral, it says that I had held a male identity since childhood."

However, her medical records indicated no prior signs of gender dysphoria during her childhood, which Dr. Peterson challenges:

[00:21] Jordan Peterson: "Discomfort with your body and feeling disconnected with girls, that's called puberty."

At age 12, Clementine was prescribed puberty blockers by Dr. Joanna Olson Kennedy, the medical director at Children's Hospital Los Angeles, despite the lack of a prolonged history of gender dysphoria.

Medical Interventions: Puberty Blockers, Hormonal Therapy, and Surgery

Clementine underwent a series of medical interventions:

• Age 12: Received puberty blockers.
• Age 13: Started testosterone therapy.
• Age 14: Underwent a double mastectomy, referred to as "top surgery."

She recounts the initial social benefits of testosterone, such as increased confidence and improved social standing, but also severe side effects:

[29:04] Clementine Breen: "Pretty quickly my voice started to deepen a bit and I started to grow facial hair. My stature changed. I got a bit more confident and I was very restless and angry all the time."

These interventions eventually led to significant mental health challenges, including psychosis and severe depression.

Experiences During Transition

While testosterone initially alleviated some of Clementine's anxiety and depression, it also brought about negative side effects:

[09:21] Dr. Peterson: "You don't have any framework of reference or any philosophical tools to understand what happened or."

[29:04] Clementine Breen: "Pretty quickly my voice started to deepen a bit and I started to grow facial hair. My stature changed. I got a bit more confident and I was very restless and angry all the time."

At age 17, Clementine experienced full-blown hallucinations and psychosis, which she attributes to a combination of testosterone therapy and unresolved trauma from her childhood abuse.

[30:49] Clementine Breen: "It was like hearing voices and whispers and shouting from the other side."

Realization and Detransition: Addressing Trauma

Through dialectical behavioral therapy (DBT) and cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) at age 17, Clementine began to confront and process her childhood sexual abuse. This therapeutic journey led her to understand that her initial transition was a coping mechanism for her unresolved PTSD rather than a true reflection of her gender identity.

[75:31] Clementine Breen: "I would say that there is nothing physically wrong with you and anything that you think is physically wrong with you is because something external is making you feel like there's something wrong with you..."

This realization prompted her to detransition and embrace her female identity once more, recognizing that her earlier medical interventions did not resolve her underlying mental health issues.

Legal Action: Lawsuit Against Medical Professionals

Clementine is currently initiating a lawsuit against key medical professionals and institutions involved in her transition, specifically Dr. Joanna Olson Kennedy, Dr. Scott Mosser, and Children's Hospital Los Angeles. She alleges malpractice, citing inadequate psychological evaluation and the rapid administration of gender-affirming treatments based on unfounded claims of suicide risk.

[83:04] Clementine Breen: "She doesn't believe in gatekeeping, and she's very open about how she doesn't think it's possible that mental health comorbidities could ever affect someone's gender identity."

The lawsuit seeks damages for the medical costs incurred, including breast reconstruction surgery and future medical needs related to hormonal imbalances.

Current Life and Public Impact

Now a UCLA student, Clementine faces challenges on a politicized campus where her detransition has drawn both support and hostility. Her public disclosures, including interactions with activist Billboard Chris, have amplified her story, leading to increased awareness but also personal stress.

[85:24] Clementine Breen: "I am hoping for change. I don't want to demand anything. I'm not a lawmaker or a doctor, so I can't make any broad assertions, but I definitely think the standard of care where it's at right now is pretty abysmal."

Conclusion: Key Takeaways

Clementine Breen's narrative underscores the complexities of treating gender dysphoria in adolescents, particularly when compounded by unresolved trauma and inadequate psychological support. Her experiences raise critical questions about the standard of care, the role of medical professionals in addressing underlying mental health issues, and the long-term implications of early medical interventions in gender identity.

[94:56] Jordan Peterson: "So, you could imagine two models of unhappiness... treatment for depression and anxiety directly."

This episode highlights the importance of comprehensive mental health evaluation and the need for a cautious approach to gender-affirming treatments, advocating for the principle of "first do no harm."

Notable Quotes:

• Clementine Breen [10:27]: "So just to give, like, enough context, when I was about six years old, I was sexually abused."
• Jordan Peterson [00:21]: "Discomfort with your body and feeling disconnected with girls, that's called puberty."
• Clementine Breen [29:04]: "Pretty quickly my voice started to deepen a bit and I started to grow facial hair. My stature changed. I got a bit more confident and I was very restless and angry all the time."
• Clementine Breen [30:49]: "It was like hearing voices and whispers and shouting from the other side."
• Clementine Breen [75:31]: "I would say that there is nothing physically wrong with you and anything that you think is physically wrong with you is because something external is making you feel like there's something wrong with you..."
• Clementine Breen [83:04]: "She doesn't believe in gatekeeping, and she's very open about how she doesn't think it's possible that mental health comorbidities could ever affect someone's gender identity."
• Clementine Breen [85:24]: "I am hoping for change. I don't want to demand anything. I'm not a lawmaker or a doctor, so I can't make any broad assertions, but I definitely think the standard of care where it's at right now is pretty abysmal."
• Jordan Peterson [94:56]: "So, you could imagine two models of unhappiness... treatment for depression and anxiety directly."

This detailed summary encapsulates Clementine Breen's harrowing journey through early medical interventions for gender dysphoria, the exacerbation of her mental health issues, and her eventual detransition. It highlights the critical need for thorough psychological evaluation and a more measured approach to gender-affirming treatments in adolescents.