538. South Africa: What the West Needs to Learn | Dr. Ernst Roets

Mon Apr 14 2025

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with South African filmmaker, author, and activist Dr. Ernst Roets. They discuss the genetic and cultural hyper-diversity of Africa, the early settlement patterns of South Africa, the origin story of the Boers, how forgotten history breeds rhyming conflicts in the present, and the complex needle that must be threaded for shared prosperity. Dr. Ernst Roets is an Afrikaner activist, author and filmmaker from South Africa. He serves as Executive Director of the newly established Pioneer Initiative, which seeks to promote a more sustainable political dispensation for South Africa, based on the principles of decentralization and self-governance. Dr Roets is the leading expert on the topic of farm murders in South Africa. His book, Kill the Boer: Government Complicity in South Africa's Brutal Farm Murders is an international bestseller on Amazon. He is also the producer of several documentary films. He regularly appears in the media - both in South Afric...

Transcript

Dr. Ernst Roots (0:00)

I mentioned this story about the vow that was made in 1838. And he went to negotiate with the Zulu king, King Dingaan. They signed a treaty. The king said, we need to celebrate this, but leave your weapons outside. And so during the celebration, the Zulu king chanted, kill the wizards. And they slaughtered him. We need to retaliate. We need to attack back. And so they had a commander of about three to 400 people. They were completely surrounded by about 12,000, a man named Sahl Salih. He was the religious leader. And he said, we need to make a vow to God. Some people say that's the origin story of our people.

Jordan Peterson (0:32)

Let's flip to the modern time. What was the relationship between the apartheid state per se and this notion of separate homelands?

Dr. Ernst Roots (0:40)

The argument was that South Africa should be thought of as Europe. The single biggest problem in South Africa, it's a triangle of unemployment, poverty, and inequality. Ironically, they've gotten to a point where they can only think about inequality.

Jordan Peterson (0:53)

It looks to me like the cost of innovation is inequality. Okay, now your book is entitled Kill the Boar. There's a reason for that. Hello, everybody. I've watched, over a very long period of time, the political and economic situation in South Africa both heat up and destabilize. And that's taken somewhat of an accelerating turn in the last few years. And because of that, I've become increasingly interested in delving more deeply into the history of South Africa to understand the context and then also the political situation on the ground in that country now. And I came across the work of Dr. Ernst Roots, who wrote this book called Kill the Boar, this book which was published in 2018. Now, he's also a filmmaker. He made a film called Tainted Heroes, which is about the apartheid era in 2016, and another one called Disrupted Land. And I hoped to talk to Dr. Roots about South Africa about its history and about. Well, about its current situation and about hopes and concerns for the future. And that's exactly what we did. And so the first thing I wanted to do was to delve a little bit into the history of the origin of South Africa, because there's a narrative in the west that the evil white Europeans came to a land dominated by black Africans and colonized it in their brutal and murderous fashion. And, well, any territorial dispute has its bloody edge, let's say. But the truth of the matter is that the settlement of South Africa is a hell of a lot more complex than that, and that the two primary racial groups that exist there today weren't the original inhabitants of the land. Whether they're black or white. And so just knowing that is useful. And we spent the first half, really, of the podcast talking about the history of the settlement of South Africa. The original people there were Bushmen who aren't particularly related genetically to the Bantu, the black people who live there now, and obviously not to the Europeans. So the. The situation with regards to ethnicity and race in South Africa is a lot more complicated than it appears on the surface. And so, well, that's what we're trying to puzzle out in this podcast. So join me and my guest, Dr. Ernst Roots, for that discussion. So this is likely to be an unsettling conversation, so we might as well dive right in. The first thing I think that people who are watching and listening should know is more a somewhat more detailed history of the settlement patterns in South Africa, because the presumption, first of all, what most people in the west know about South Africa, you could put in a very small thimble with enough room left over for another thimble, and that includes me. And so it's not like I studied that in high school, for example. And so people know nothing about South Africa, like really nothing. And they certainly don't know anything about its settlement patterns. And so I suppose people use the analog of the European settlement of the Americas, which, which is also a very complex story. I mean, by the time the pilgrims got to the eastern coast of the United States, there are estimates that 95% of the native Americans had already died from measles, smallpox, mumps, et cetera. And so the settlement story is extremely complex, but it's even more complex in South Africa, and they're not the same. So. So could you enlighten everyone who's watching and listening about the settlement patterns, the relationship between the land and the Europeans and the black Africans, and let's just lay that out so we know where we stand first.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Episode 538. Dr. Ernst Roots

Title: Understanding South Africa's Complex History and Current Crisis

Host: Dr. Jordan B. Peterson
Guest: Dr. Ernst Roots
Release Date: April 14, 2025
Duration: [Summary based on provided transcript]

Introduction

In Episode 538 of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, host Dr. Jordan B. Peterson engages in a profound discussion with Dr. Ernst Roots, a historian and filmmaker specializing in South African history. The conversation delves into the intricate settlement patterns of South Africa, the legacy of apartheid, and the nation's current socio-political turmoil. This episode provides listeners with an in-depth understanding of how historical dynamics continue to shape modern South Africa.

1. Historical Settlement Patterns in South Africa

Key Discussion Points:

Early Inhabitants: The original inhabitants of South Africa were the Khoi and San peoples, commonly referred to as the Bushmen, who have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. They are genetically and culturally distinct from both European settlers and Bantu-speaking groups ([00:00]-[07:50]).
European Settlement: The Dutch East India Company established a refreshment station in Cape Town in 1652, attracting Dutch, German, and French settlers who became the proto-Afrikaners. Over approximately 400 years, they developed a unique language and culture distinct from their European origins ([07:07]-[13:34]).
Bantu Migration: Concurrently, Bantu-speaking groups migrated south from central Africa, pushing out the Bushmen and establishing dominant communities like the Zulu Kingdom. This migration was driven by inter-tribal conflicts and the search for fertile land ([07:07]-[14:39]).

Notable Quote:

Dr. Ernst Roots emphasizes the complexity of South Africa's ethnic landscape:
“The situation with regards to ethnicity and race in South Africa is a lot more complicated than it appears on the surface.” ([07:50])

2. The Great Trek and Afrikaner Identity

Key Discussion Points:

The Great Trek (1830s): Approximately 2,000 Afrikaners embarked on the Great Trek to escape British rule, seeking autonomy and fertile land in the interior. This migration led to significant conflicts, notably the Battle of Blood River in 1838, where a small Afrikaner force defeated a much larger Zulu army.
Formation of Identity: The Great Trek is considered the origin story of Afrikaner identity, marked by vows of resilience and religious commitment. This historical event underpins the Afrikaners' conservative and land-centric culture today ([17:26]-[30:36]).

Notable Quote:

Dr. Ernst Roots recounts the vow made before the Battle of Blood River:
“We make a vow to God that if he protects us in the battle that lies ahead... we will commemorate this day as a Sabbath.” ([28:45])

3. Demographics and Population Growth

Key Discussion Points:

Population Dynamics: South Africa's population has grown to approximately 60 million, with white South Africans constituting less than 5 million, including about 2.7 million Afrikaners. The majority of the population is black African, with significant "colored" communities and smaller groups of Indian and Asian descent ([31:13]-[33:27]).
Apartheid and Its Aftermath: The apartheid system, which enforced racial segregation and economic disparity, is often misconstrued as a genocide. However, Dr. Roots clarifies that while apartheid was oppressive, the black population actually doubled during its implementation, emphasizing a complex demographic evolution rather than outright extermination ([32:18]-[33:27]).

Notable Quote:

Dr. Roots challenges the characterization of apartheid as genocide:
“Genocide is not the right term because the black population in South Africa doubled...” ([31:29])

4. Modern Political Climate and Challenges

Key Discussion Points:

State of Infrastructure: South Africa faces severe infrastructural decay, exemplified by frequent power outages, water shortages due to poor maintenance, and deteriorating transportation systems. These issues disproportionately affect impoverished black communities in townships ([71:00]-[75:53]).
Rise of Radical Politics: The Economic Freedom Fighters (EFF), led by Julius Malema, advocate for radical land reforms and have incited violence against white farmers through chants like "Kill the Boer." This rhetoric fuels ethnic tensions and threatens societal stability ([78:57]-[84:22]).

Notable Quotes:

Jordan Peterson on the impact of infrastructural collapse:
“Once your infrastructure starts to deteriorate, the poor people... die from the bottom up.” ([73:50])
Dr. Ernst Roots on radical political rhetoric:
“We are not calling for the slaughter of white people, at least for now...” ([84:18])

5. Prospects for the Future and Potential Solutions

Key Discussion Points:

Economic Policies: The African National Congress (ANC) has struggled to address the triangle of unemployment, poverty, and inequality, often resorting to socialist policies that have exacerbated economic disparities without fostering production or reducing unemployment effectively ([65:01]-[66:31]).
Call for Decentralization: Dr. Roots advocates for decentralizing political power to allow for cultural autonomy and mutual respect among diverse communities. He suggests that solutions lie in recognizing and respecting different frames of reference rather than enforcing a monolithic Western perspective ([93:44]-[97:53]).
International Support: There is a discussion about seeking refugee status for Afrikaner farmers in the West, highlighting fears that loss of this community could lead to further societal collapse in South Africa ([90:35]-[91:42]).

Notable Quote:

Dr. Roots on the necessity of decentralization:
“We need to find a way where there's mutual recognition and respect between different perspectives.” ([94:09])

Conclusion

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Dr. Ernst Roots provide a comprehensive exploration of South Africa's historical complexities and current crises. The dialogue underscores the importance of understanding nuanced historical contexts to address modern challenges effectively. The episode serves as a critical reminder of how deeply ingrained historical conflicts and policies continue to impact contemporary societal structures and highlights the urgent need for thoughtful, decentralized solutions to foster stability and prosperity in South Africa.

Disclaimer: This summary is based on a provided transcript and aims to encapsulate the key discussions and insights from Episode 538 of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast. For a complete understanding, listening to the full episode is recommended.