Podcast Summary: The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Episode 541. "Why We Stopped Progressing" with Peter Thiel

Introduction

In Episode 541 of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, host Dr. Jordan B. Peterson engages in a profound conversation with entrepreneur and investor Peter Thiel. The discussion delves into the intriguing proposition that humanity's material and technological progress has significantly decelerated since the 1960s. Through an exploration of cultural transformations, scientific advancements, and philosophical underpinnings, Peterson and Thiel examine the complexities surrounding modern progress and societal development.

1. Thiel’s Thesis on Stagnation in Progress (00:00 - 03:44)

Peter Thiel opens the discussion by asserting a critical viewpoint on the state of progress:

Peter Thiel [00:00]: "We've stopped moving faster physically the last 50 years. We feel like we are in an apocalyptic age."

Thiel suggests that while digital advancements—such as AI, software, and the internet—continue to surge, progress in the tangible, material world has plateaued. He identifies a palpable sense of apocalyptic fear associated with scientific and technological endeavors, which may be creating self-imposed traps for humanity.

2. The Nature and Measurement of Progress (03:44 - 19:44)

Peterson explores Thiel's perspective on measuring progress, highlighting the complexities involved:

Peter Thiel [03:44]: "We've continued to have progress in the world of bits, computers, software, Internet... but there's been much less progress in the world of atoms."

Thiel contrasts advancements in digital realms with stagnation in physical sciences and engineering. He reflects on historical trends, noting a significant slowdown starting around the 1970s. This period marks a transition from the rapid innovations of the post-Enlightenment era to an era characterized by moderate or negligible material advancements.

Thiel also touches upon economic indicators, pointing out that younger generations, such as millennials in the U.S., may not enjoy the same economic prosperity as their predecessors, despite technological growth. He critiques hyperspecialization in modern academia, making it difficult to evaluate progress independently across diverse fields.

3. Apocalyptic Fear and Regulation (19:44 - 32:43)

The conversation shifts to the societal and regulatory responses to technological advancements:

Peter Thiel [19:44]: "The singularity was maybe more in the past than in the future... we feel like we are in an apocalyptic age."

Thiel argues that the development of thermonuclear weapons and other dual-use technologies has instilled a profound sense of risk aversion within society. This fear has led to excessive regulation and a general hesitancy to pursue aggressive technological progression. He likens the late modern era to an intensely regulated "pin factory on steroids," where specialized expertise obscures the broader picture of societal advancement.

4. Christianity and the Scientific Revolution (32:43 - 43:53)

A significant portion of the dialogue examines the relationship between Christianity and the scientific revolution:

Jordan Peterson [32:43]: "Much of the early science was done in the monasteries that turned into universities."

Peterson posits that Christianity played a foundational role in the emergence of modern science, providing metaphysical presuppositions that fostered the belief in an intelligible cosmos. Thiel adds depth to this argument by suggesting that Christian anthropology, rather than solely theological metaphysics, was instrumental in shaping scientific inquiry.

The discussion delves into historical narratives, contrasting the progressive drive of early modern scientists with the post-war era's shift towards introspection and abstraction. Thiel emphasizes that the development of nuclear weapons marked a turning point where the unbridled pursuit of scientific progress began to face significant ethical and existential challenges.

5. Mimesis, Imitation, and Social Dynamics (43:53 - 58:57)

The topic of imitation and its implications on societal behavior is explored through the lens of René Girard's theories:

Peter Thiel [44:57]: "Human beings being imitative is very deep, very important, very underexplored."

Thiel and Peterson discuss how imitation drives cultural transmission and social hierarchies. Thiel raises concerns about the dark side of mimesis, where unchecked imitation can lead to violent competition and societal instability. He critiques contemporary forms of status competition, suggesting that without transcendent references, mimetic desires can spiral into chaos.

6. Sacrifice and Human Development (62:58 - 80:12)

The conversation transitions to the concept of sacrifice and its role in personal and societal maturation:

Jordan Peterson [63:00]: "Another radical characteristic is the willingness and ability to make sacrifices."

Peterson defines sacrifice as the ability to forego immediate gratification for long-term stability and success. He argues that maturity involves regulating short-term impulses to achieve harmonious cooperation within social groups. Thiel challenges the language of sacrifice, advocating for a more rational interpretation of behavioral regulation without necessarily framing it as self-denial.

They discuss the application of sacrifice in academic and professional contexts, with Thiel praising Peterson’s decision to prioritize truth and personal integrity over career advancement. This segment underscores the tension between societal expectations and individual moral choices.

7. Christianity’s Anti-Sacrificial and Anti-Mimetic Intuitions (80:12 - 89:28)

Thiel elaborates on Christianity’s stance against sacrificial norms and its influence on modern socio-cultural dynamics:

Peter Thiel [85:54]: "Christianity was the first person to actually do that, really, and started that whole process where you can think so much of it was calling into question the social institutions."

He argues that Christianity introduced a unique metaphysical framework that discourages blind imitation and unrestrained sacrifice, emphasizing voluntary self-sacrifice instead. This philosophical shift, according to Thiel, mitigates the dangers of mimesis by providing a transcendent reference point that stabilizes societal behavior.

8. Conclusion and Future Topics (89:28 - End)

As the main conversation concludes, Peterson hints at continuing discussions on related themes, such as the "faith of a child" and deeper explorations into Christianity's impact on personal and societal transformation. The episode ends with acknowledgments and a tease for an extended conversation to further unpack these profound topics.

Notable Quotes

• Peter Thiel [00:00]: "We've stopped moving faster physically the last 50 years."

• Peter Thiel [03:44]: "We've continued to have progress in the world of bits, computers, software, Internet... but there's been much less progress in the world of atoms."

• Peter Thiel [19:44]: "The singularity was maybe more in the past than in the future... we feel like we are in an apocalyptic age."

• Jordan Peterson [32:43]: "Much of the early science was done in the monasteries that turned into universities."

• Peter Thiel [44:57]: "Human beings being imitative is very deep, very important, very underexplored."

• Jordan Peterson [63:00]: "Another radical characteristic is the willingness and ability to make sacrifices."

Conclusion

Episode 541 of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast presents an intellectually stimulating dialogue between Peterson and Thiel, challenging listeners to reconsider the trajectory of modern progress. By intertwining historical analysis, philosophical discourse, and sociological insights, the episode offers a comprehensive examination of why material and technological advancements may have slowed and what cultural and metaphysical factors contribute to this phenomenon. For those seeking to understand the intricate balance between science, culture, and societal values, this episode serves as a compelling resource.