548. Jordan Peterson Takes Your Call: Advice, Mental Health, Family Dynamics | Mikhaila Fuller

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
Episode 548: "Jordan Peterson Takes Your Call: Advice, Mental Health, Family Dynamics | Mikhaila Fuller"
Release Date: May 19, 2025

In Episode 548 of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, renowned psychologist and author Dr. Jordan B. Peterson engages in a compelling dialogue with his daughter, Mikhaila Peterson, as they tackle pressing audience questions surrounding relationships, mental health, and family dynamics. This episode delves deep into societal norms, personal growth, and the complexities of modern relationships, offering listeners insightful perspectives rooted in psychological theory and practical wisdom.

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1. Navigating Age Gaps in Relationships

The episode opens with a pertinent question from an audience member regarding the dynamics of relationships with significant age gaps.

Audience Member [02:19]:
"What is your opinion or feedback about what you've seen about relationships being successful? If there is a substantial age gap of, let's say, 10, 15 years, what has been your understanding as to the overall satisfaction of those relationships and the ability for them to be long lasting and satisfying when compared to relationships with, you know, less than a 10 year age gap or so."

Dr. Peterson [02:53]:
"First of all, that's generally a situation with a younger woman and an older man. I'm not going to comment on the reverse situation because it's very rare."
[04:00]

Key Insights:

• Social Norms: Dr. Peterson highlights that culturally, women often prefer men who are slightly older, typically about four years their senior. This preference is attributed to a woman's desire for a partner who is mature, stable, and capable of providing support, especially during periods like pregnancy and early child-rearing.

• Advantages of Maturity: Older men generally bring enhanced competence, broader social connections, and greater resources to a relationship, which can contribute to its longevity and satisfaction.

• Balance and Compatibility: When both partners are of compatible ages, especially beyond the initial years where maturity levels stabilize, the relationship tends to face fewer insurmountable challenges compared to those with significant age disparities.

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2. The Challenges of Polyamory and Family Dynamics

A subsequent question addresses the complexities of polyamorous relationships and their impact on traditional family structures.

Audience Member [20:31]:
"We have been a traditional family for 50 years... our son helped a woman who was in an abusive relationship and she and her son became part of their family. It became apparent last year they are now in a polyamorous relationship... We have taken a different road and we can't seem to find a middle road to gather with them. Any help would be appreciated."

Dr. Peterson [20:31]:
"First of all, polyamory... simply put, monogamy is a universal norm and ideal. Not because people don't have proclivities in other directions, but because the human race hasn't found a solution that's stable."
[23:46]

Mikhaila Peterson [24:07]:
"Maybe they just said, we don't agree with your lifestyle and we need a boundary here. But should the boundary be as far as we don't talk to you anymore, or should it be like, we love you, we don't think this lifestyle is good for you or the people around you or potential children you're going to have?"
[24:45]

Key Insights:

• Deviation from Norms: Dr. Peterson emphasizes the risks associated with deviating from societal norms, particularly in the context of family structures. He argues that monogamy provides a stable framework that simplifies interpersonal relationships and reduces complexity.

• Challenges of Polyamory: Entering into polyamorous relationships introduces significant challenges, such as managing jealousy, negotiating time and resources, and maintaining trust—all of which can destabilize familial bonds.

• Parental Boundaries: Mikhaila discusses the difficulty of setting boundaries with family members who choose alternative lifestyles. Dr. Peterson suggests practical steps, such as initiating structured and neutral meetings, to navigate these new dynamics without causing further estrangement.

• Importance of Communication: Effective communication and clear agreements are crucial in mitigating the disruptions caused by non-traditional relationships within a family.

---

3. Building a Meaningful Life and Assessing Productivity

An audience member reflects on their journey from a truck driver to a law student, expressing concerns about the future of Western civilization and the importance of creating a stable environment for children.

Audience Member [11:23]:
"...I am less and less optimistic about the future of Western civilization as it seems that a lot of what gave it meaning is evaporating in front of our eyes... Do you have any words to rekindle my faith that we are still in fact able to create a world that is suitable for children to inherit?"

Dr. Peterson [12:07]:
"You are bringing children into an uncertain world. You're coping with the uncertainty in life by picking a challenging and responsibility laden pathway forward in your private life... Find someone and take the risk and then the same with children and figure it out as you move forward."
[16:14]

Key Insights:

• Embracing Uncertainty: Dr. Peterson acknowledges the inherent uncertainty in life and parenting but encourages embracing responsibility as a means to create meaning and stability.

• Future Authoring Program: He introduces the concept of the Future Authoring Program, a tool designed to help individuals clarify their goals and plans, thereby reducing anxiety and providing direction.

• Goal Setting and Adaptability: The discussion underscores the importance of setting clear, motivating goals and being willing to adapt plans based on feedback and changing circumstances.

• Mikhaila’s Reflections [35:34]:
  "I've been so surprised because every year I'll look at my goals again. I'll be like, you know what? I got through, like, 80% of these... It's because when you do make a plan, it's like your vision changes and you can see these open doors."

• Cybernetic Self-Correction: Dr. Peterson explains the concept of cybernetic self-correction, where individuals iteratively adjust their plans based on outcomes and feedback, similar to how large language models are trained.

---

4. Relationship Issues and Personality Traits

The conversation transitions to the intricacies of personal relationships, particularly focusing on the impact of individual personality traits.

Mikhaila Peterson [50:01]:
"This also might be helpful if people do find themselves in a situation where they have dated a number of people and they're like, it's not working, it's not working... I found another extreme person. I was like, okay, now we can be lunatics together."
[53:12]

Dr. Peterson [51:03]:
"We have this Understand Myself personality questionnaire... it has a couples component."
[50:01]

Key Insights:

• Personality Compatibility: The importance of understanding both one's own and one's partner’s personality traits is highlighted as crucial for sustaining healthy relationships.

• Understand Myself Questionnaire: Dr. Peterson introduces the Understand Myself personality assessment, a tool developed to evaluate personality traits and compatibility between partners.

• Traits Impacting Relationships:

  • Conscientiousness: Significant disparities in conscientiousness can lead to one partner disproportionately handling responsibilities, leading to imbalance and resentment.
  • Extroversion: Misaligned levels of extroversion can cause communication gaps and unmet social needs within the relationship.
  • Openness: Differences in openness to new experiences and ideas can result in misunderstanding and conflict.

• Practical Application: Mikhaila shares her positive experiences using these tools to screen potential partners, underscoring their effectiveness in identifying compatible traits and avoiding relationship pitfalls.

---

5. Concluding Thoughts: Conservatism in Personal Growth

As the episode draws to a close, Dr. Peterson and Mikhaila encapsulate the essence of their discussions, emphasizing the role of personal responsibility and structured growth in leading a fulfilling life.

Dr. Peterson [53:52]:
"Sort your family out, get your career together, educate yourself. Figure out how to resist temptation, serve your community... Take a small step in the direction that you want things to go and build from that."
[55:11]

Mikhaila Peterson [55:14]:
"Thanks for everybody who submitted questions. Hopefully people enjoyed it or found it helpful."
[55:25]

Key Insights:

• Conservative Approach to Life: Embracing traditional structures and responsibilities can provide a stable foundation for personal and familial growth.

• Incremental Progress: Taking manageable steps toward desired goals allows individuals to build momentum and adapt strategies as needed, fostering continuous improvement.

• Interconnectedness of Personal and Societal Health: Personal fulfillment and strong relationships contribute significantly to the broader health and cohesion of society.

---

Notable Quotes

• Dr. Jordan Peterson [02:53]:
  "Monogamy is a universal norm and ideal... it's a way to reduce complexity and provide stability in relationships."

• Mikhaila Peterson [24:07]:
  "Maybe they just said, we don't agree with your lifestyle and we need a boundary here. But should the boundary be... we love you, we don't think this lifestyle is good for you..."

• Dr. Jordan Peterson [12:07]:
  "You're bringing children into an uncertain world. You're coping with the uncertainty in life by picking a challenging and responsibility laden pathway forward in your private life."

• Mikhaila Peterson [35:34]:
  "Every year I'll look at my goals again. I'll be like, you know what? I got through, like, 80% of these... because when you do make a plan, it's like your vision changes and you can see these open doors."

• Dr. Jordan Peterson [53:52]:
  "Sort your family out, get your career together, educate yourself. Figure out how to resist temptation, serve your community... Take a small step in the direction that you want things to go and build from that."

---

Conclusion

In this episode, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Mikhaila Fuller Peterson address complex issues surrounding modern relationships, personal growth, and family dynamics with clarity and depth. They offer actionable advice grounded in psychological principles, encouraging listeners to embrace responsibility, set meaningful goals, and navigate societal norms thoughtfully. Whether dealing with significant age gaps in relationships, the challenges of polyamory, or the quest for a fulfilling and purposeful life, this episode provides valuable insights for individuals seeking guidance in an increasingly complex world.

Transcript

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[Jordan Peterson]

It's very distressing to see people whose families are fragmented because it just curdles your soul.

[Mikayla Peterson]

How far should I go for someone who I care about but who refuses to get professional help?

[Audience Member]

How do I know if I'm actually building something?

[Mikayla Peterson]

There is a substantial issue, it seems.

[Audience Member]

To me, unwise to reproduce things being this uncertain.

[Jordan Peterson]

Well, what are you doing when you're talking to someone, you're thinking, why would you think to specify a problem and to solve it? You know, it sounds to me like you're setting yourself up as someone who could be maybe an excellent husband and father. You know, you've evaluated your life and you've come to some new conclusions and you've developed some new daring and you're becoming more educated. It's like, share that with someone.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Do you like my Jordan Peterson bust?

[Jordan Peterson]

I really don't know what to think of it.

[Mikayla Peterson]

It'd be weird if you owned it.

[Jordan Peterson]

I think it's weird also that you own it.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Okay, let's get this show on the road. We thought it might be a fun idea or an interesting idea to take questions from your audience and have you do what you do best and try to help some people if they need help. And maybe the questions will be applicable to a lot of people. So I think it should be fun. We're going to give this a shot. I hope you guys enjoy it. I'm Mikayla, by the way. If people don't know who I am, that would be.

[Jordan Peterson]

She's my daughter.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Oh, yeah.

[Jordan Peterson]

And a perfectly fine person in her own right as well.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Well, thank you. I think that was a compliment, so I'll take it. Are we ready? Number one, should we just jump into it?

[Jordan Peterson]

Let's go.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Okay.

[Audience Member]

What is your opinion or feedback about what you've seen about relationships being successful? If there is a substantial age gap of, let's say, 10, 15 years, what has been your understanding as to the overall satisfaction of those relationships and the ability for them to be able to be long lasting and satisfying when compared to relationships with, you know, less than a 10 year age gap or so.

[Jordan Peterson]

First of all, that's generally a situation with a younger woman and an older man. I'm not going to comment on the reverse situation because it's very rare.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Women live longer. It technically makes a little bit more sense. That's coming from me.

[Jordan Peterson]

It, it violates the social norm again, like women cross culturally prefer men who are about four years older. And there's a variety of reasons for that. The major reason is that a wise woman isn't looking for another child. She's looking for someone who, yeah, she can rely on to be productive, generous, loving when she's incapacitated or more incapacitated in pregnancy and with young children. And so women even the scorecard by looking for men who are mature and no wonder. And young men have to understand that a 17 year old male is not a very marketable creature. Now there are exceptions to that. You know, spectacularly attractive people who are outstanding in some manner can leapfrog the game. But basically men gain advantage as they age. There are women who I've met who are looking for someone who's quite substantially more mature. And there are advantages to that, I think for a woman because as men establish themselves, they know more, they have broader social connections, they're more competent and they have more resources. And the other thing you know is by the time you're 25, you're about as old as everyone else until they're like 70. You know, you hit that period of maturity where roughly people are the same age. And so if you're attracted and you're both willing, then I don't see that as a problem that's any more insurmountable than personality differences or the other idiosyncrasies that couples have to contend with.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Do you think it's weird? So I think the difference between say 30 year old woman or 25 year old woman and 40 or 45 year old man, that makes more or if you go up, that kind of makes sense. Do you think it's weird when we see like 35 year old men who refuse to date anybody who's above the age of 22?

[Jordan Peterson]

I don't know if there are experiments of this sort, but they'd be easy enough to run. If you're after a one night stand, then why not have a 22 year old?

[Mikayla Peterson]

No, that totally.

[Jordan Peterson]

Well, no, but that's it, that's the whole story.

[Mikayla Peterson]

But if it's a relationship.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah. Well then, then, then the problems that you just described leap forward madly for anyone who has Any sense I would.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Be concerned that I was being taken advantage of just from being a 21 year old. If I meet other 35 year old guys, I'm like, if you only date young 20s, is it because anybody who's 30 would see through you?

[Jordan Peterson]

Oh, sure, yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Once you get a bunch above like 25, I don't think it makes that much of a difference.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah, well, the predatory tilt. Look, Mickey, we know the personality characteristics of men who tilt towards one night stands. That's already been delineated. They're, they tilt in the dark tetra direction. And so the 35 year old men who won't date anyone who's under, who's over 23, they're not dating. They're looking for sex with no strings attached. And you know, if there was such a thing as sex with no strings attached, then hey, have at her. But the problem is is that that never happens.

[Mikayla Peterson]

I think the argument that they use is, oh, those are women's most fertile years. But you don't see the people doing that, getting married and having babies. They're actually more into polyamory, if anything.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there is a relationship between youth and. There's a relationship between youth and casual sexual attractiveness the same way there is between maybe overuse of makeup and casual sexual attractiveness. Like if you're shallow. I'm not exactly saying that attraction to youth and beauty is shallow, but you know, there are 15, 16 year old models. They're not uncommon at all. They're usually quite made up and that makeup gives them a sexual patina. And it's very easy if you're male to be attracted sexually by surface. It's a sign of lack of maturity and wisdom. And I'm not trying to make a case against beauty. But there are plenty of beautiful women who are 30. There are plenty of beautiful women who are 50. It gets harder as you get older to maintain that your mother has done that extraordinarily well. They're not seeing the whole person. Yeah, and that's convenient if what you want to do is have responsibility free sex. But there's no such thing as responsibility free sex. That's a complete lie. And so then it's immature. And so those men are immature. It's as simple as that. They're immature and they're not having a relationship. They're not tying themselves together with someone for the long run. And that makes that cripples them because life is very hard. It's not something you should undertake alone. You will become you can't be saying alone. I think with regards to the age difference, maybe the one thing you want to ask if you're a young woman with an older man is, you know, are there, are you looking for a father? But then if you didn't have a father and you're a very young woman, like maybe you need that more mature guidance? Maybe that's valuable to you. Why wouldn't it be?

[Mikayla Peterson]

I think as long as you avoid the psychopathic types that are just after naivety, then then you're all kind of the same age after a certain point anyway, so it probably doesn't matter. And maybe there are some benefits even depending on the person.

[Jordan Peterson]

That's, that's a perfectly reasonable summation.

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[Audience Member]

Dear Dr. Peterson, Largely thanks to discovering your lectures as I was going through a very rough patch in 2017, I I am now a former truck driver turned part time security guard and full time law student. You helped me rediscover meaning culture and rekindle the flame that drove me and I am forever grateful to you. I am, however, less and less optimistic about the future of Western civilization as it seems that a lot of what gave it meaning is evaporating in front of our eyes, particularly with wokeness working ever so hard to divide us all. It seems to me unwise to reproduce things being this uncertain. Do you have any words to rekindle my faith that we are still in fact able to create a world that is suitable for children to inherit?

[Jordan Peterson]

Your story implies that you made less of yourself for some substantial amount of time because of doubt and that you shed that and that that's improved your life substantially enough so that you expressed gratitude for that. My first pass take on what you said is that the same problem is plaguing you in relationship to children. It's always there isn't a more uncertain thing you can do than to have children. And so it's always been the case throughout human history that you are bringing children into an uncertain world. You're coping with the uncertainty in life by picking a challenging and responsibility laden pathway forward in your private life. Don't stop. I would say the same with regards to marriage. Find someone and take the risk and then the same with children and figure it out as you move forward. I think that there's a diverse enough range of opportunity and risk in the future so that a generic notion like things are too unstable is not the right level of resolution to address the issue. The question is, would you take on the responsibility and the adventure of producing a micro environment within your own family that enables you to marry and to have children and to produce something for the future in a way that best enables your children to move forward with security and daring into the future? And you already know you can do this in principle because you've already taken radical steps in the last few years to put your life on a new course. Because you could say the same thing about the judiciary becoming corrupt and law schools becoming woke and everything shaking to its foundations. And you could use that as a justification for your refusal to move forward in faith and with courage. But you're not. And you said yourself that things are way better because of your new attitude. Well, so continue with the risk. You know, it sounds to me like you're setting yourself up as someone who could be maybe an excellent husband and father. And you know, you've evaluated your life and you've come to some new conclusions and you've developed some new daring and you're becoming more educated. It's like, share that with someone and pass on the benefits to your children who will love you. Which is a. There's no better deal than that, by the way too, you know, there's no better deal than a family and people who love you. And that's worth a risk and it's worth a risk for them. And there's no better pathway forward than to maintain your faith in yourself and in the spirit of life itself. And if you lose that or let it waver, then it makes even catastrophe worse.

[Audience Member]

So.

[Jordan Peterson]

Consider it a moral obligation to have faith in be fruitful and multiply. It's a pro existence stance. And if you're opposed to your own existence, then who can save you?

[Mikayla Peterson]

You can also create this, like you were talking about, this little microcosm in your home for your kids to grow up in. And then you can help them become extremely competent. Like, this guy sounds competent. He's in law school. He's like, he's obviously gone through a number of jobs and become more and more successful and gotten over some personal stuff like, so he seems competent. But if you raise your kids right and you build confidence in themselves, then, then they can go out into this.

[Jordan Peterson]

Chaotic world and find opportunity.

[Mikayla Peterson]

And find opportunity too.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah, yeah, well. And there's not that much difference between a problem and an opportunity. Like a world full of problems is what you could solve those problems. And if there's a problem and you solve it, then you have an opportunity. And so a world where everything was taken care of would actually be a world without opportunity. So don't underestimate the utility of your children's competence and your role in encouraging that development.

[Mikayla Peterson]

I like that.

[Jordan Peterson]

And good luck. And congratulations also. Seriously, I want to tell you all why my team and I founded Peterson Academy. First, it's because the technology is there. It's now possible to identify and gather the greatest lectures of and thinkers alive today and to put them in a position where they can offer their best to all who are interested. Second, advanced education is far more expensive than necessary. Students who complete a four year degree risk crippling themselves with debt just when they're starting their lives and their careers. Third reason, because of ideological and institutional corruption. I watched that process pass painfully unfold for 40 years at McGill, at Harvard, at the University of Toronto. What's the alternative at Peterson Academy? Well, we have 40 stellar professors on board. We have 34 eight hour courses taught at the highest level of quality with maximum efficiency. And there's much more to come. Find your purpose, sharpen your wit, and bring to bear on your own life the knowledge being offered to you by, by the best in the world. Go to petersonacademy.com for the details. Enroll and change your life.

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[Jordan Peterson]

Ugh, I can't sleep.

[Mikayla Peterson]

What is it now?

[Jordan Peterson]

It's the company. It's chaos.

[Mikayla Peterson]

What's chaos now?

[Jordan Peterson]

The numbers, the expenses, the books. What if we get audited?

[Mikayla Peterson]

No one's going to audit you at 3am Go to sleep.

[Jordan Peterson]

I can't sleep. You could if you used ramp. Who said that?

[Mikayla Peterson]

I don't care. Because they're right. Go to sleep and sign up for Ramp in the morning, Jerry.

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[Jordan Peterson]

Wow. That is exactly what my company needs.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Yes, and exactly what I also need. Go to sleep, Jerry.

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[Audience Member]

We have been a traditional family for 50 years, enjoying the usual family gatherings, birthdays, Christmas, et cetera. We have two children. Six. Our oldest son has been with his partner for 20 years and they have four children, ages 9 to 17. In the last two years, our son helped a woman who was in an abusive relationship and she and her son became part of their family. It became apparent last year they are now in a polyamorous relationship. Also, our 17 year old granddaughter is now a grandson. My husband and I can work around the ladder, but cannot bring ourselves to accept the polyamorous relationship as we have not, and as we have not accepted it completely, we are now estranged from them. They have taken a different road and we can't seem to find a middle road to gather with them. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.

[Jordan Peterson]

Well, the first thing I would say is that that might be useful for everybody listening is that you deviate from the norm, much less the ideal, at your extreme peril. No. When people came to see me who were unhappy and unfulfilled and often didn't know what to do with their lives, one of the guidelines that I used to help me and them navigate was you should do what everyone else does unless you have a really good reason not to. Now, polyamory. Well, first of all, what the hell is that? Just because some dim witted leftist hedonists came up with a new word doesn't mean that anything like that exists. It's already very, very difficult to negotiate a relationship over the long run. Let's call it a marriage if you stay religiously within the normative parameters. Now you want to extend that beyond that? That's your theory? You think you're going to be sophisticated enough to negotiate the jealousies, the split of time, the perilous risks of intimacy with more than one person, and you think you're going to do that well, and that everyone else around you is going to know how to deal with that? Well, every single bit of that's delusional. Monogamy is a universal norm and ideal. Not because people don't have proclivities in other directions, but because the human race hasn't found a solution that's stable. All things considered, balancing the needs of children, men and women, and society, there's no solution to that problem other than monogamy. And I would also say you're doing something that's bad by entering into a polyamorous relationship. You're destabilizing the social norm. And. And for what? For. For your own benefit. For your own hypothetical benefit. First of all, that's a little on the selfish side, I might say. The guardrails are there for a reason, and you hope that your parents can somehow adapt to that and that, what, they're supposed to just say, it's all right, that's what they're going to do? If they love you, they're not going to raise any objections to your strange experiment. And it's not like they knew the rules. Like, what are the rules? Oh, my son has two wives. Well, no one knows what to do with that. And so what that generally means, if you're exceptional, is that people aren't going to have much to do with you because you're too damn much trouble.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Well, what would you do if I had been in that situation? Like, is a bit of it dependent on how old they are? Like, if these are people who are, I don't know, mid-20s maybe, and they're like, I'm gonna give this a shot, I can do it. I'm one of those people that can navigate basically an open relationship. Like, what if I had it in my head that that was me?

[Jordan Peterson]

Would it be like, I think I would have fought with you until I knew what the hell was going on. Like, that's my general proclivity. The woman who asked this question, there's not a lot of detail in the question. So I don't know exactly why they're alienated. And it's a terrible thing to be alienated from your children.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Maybe they just said, we don't agree with your lifestyle and we need a boundary here. But should the boundary be. Be as far as we don't talk to you anymore, or should it be like, we love you, we don't think this lifestyle is good for you or the people around you or potential children you're going to have?

[Jordan Peterson]

Mikayla, my. My suspicions are, look, if you stay within the boundaries of the norm, everybody knows what to do. There's A script. You know how to have Thanksgiving dinner together, you know how to have Christmas together, you know how to treat your wife, your husband, your son's wife's children. Everyone knows that. All right? Now if you throw a left curve into that, well, what are the rules exactly? And the answer to that is you have to negotiate them from scratch for everything. Well, people are terrible at negotiating. And so the probability that they're going to come up with a solution for that inside a family is extremely low. You're basically negotiating a whole new social contract. And so part of the advantage to marriage is like a serious reduction in complexity. You know, you, you have someone that you can rely on for the long run. You can make practical and contractual relationships with them. You can chart your course. You don't have to manage the cascading consequences of multiple relationships. And what, all of a sudden people are, they're not going to have sexual jealousy. That's just going to disappear somehow and everyone's going to love each other equally. That's going to happen. That never happens. That's never happened anywhere, ever, even once, to anyone. It's, it's preposterous. Now what would I do if that situation arose with my own kids? I don't know if I'd be the one in our family that would put down the boundary. That might be your mum, you know, because she's probably more capable than me of saying, I'm not going to stand by you while you walk off the edge of a cliff. Now, I would like to think that I would fight it out because I don't want to have anything between us. And if you were doing something seriously ill advised, I'd like to hope that the warning signs of their, of that would have been there early and that we would have worked on it before it became an unmanageable mess. I think for the woman who asked this question, I think probably the problem is that the issue is too vague. You see, now they, now these people in this situation have to think through everything. Okay, how many times a year are we going to meet? Once, twice, three times, four times, five times? How long are we going to meet? Who's going to come? What are the rules for engagement? How should we treat everyone? Like, I'd probably counsel them to try one dinner together and have a pretty decent discussion about one dinner beforehand. Who's coming? How long is going to last? How are we going to treat each other? What I would, what would I recommend? Let's be polite like we would be to strangers that we were Trying not to offend. Right. Because nobody knows what the hell's going on. Everything at the table is anomalous and strange. And so maybe you meet for. Maybe meet at a restaurant, because that's kind of neutral territory. And maybe a meet for an hour or maybe half an hour or 45 minutes, something like that, and you hope that it doesn't go horribly. And then if that worked well, if that didn't work, then scale down. If it did work well, then maybe you could try something a little bit more personal. You know, the problem is, is that something terribly anomalous has occurred and no one knows what to do about it.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Without knowing family dynamics, like, is the person who's in a polyamorous relationship? Why are they doing it? Is it because of the person they're with that's encouraging them? Is it something they want? Or is it to see how their parents will react? You know, like, it could be one of those factors, because maybe they want boundaries, or maybe they want, hey, you know what? We don't agree with this at all, but we love you anyway and have faith in you figuring it out. Maybe that's the direction they need to go, too.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Like, I feel like if I was in the situation where I was like, you know what? Polyamory is what I believe in. It's what I want. I can handle it. It's better for me, which is a delusional way of thinking. But if I had convinced myself that was the right thing and it was in response to my parents, what I would probably want is my parents to say, we don't think this is good for you. You know, it's not about us. We don't think this is good for you and your family, and we're here when you figure it out. We're not going to encourage it, and we don't like it, but we're here.

[Jordan Peterson]

Okay, I have one more thing to say about this. People like false adventures.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Yeah.

[Jordan Peterson]

And false adventures are excitement without responsibility. And what you want to do within the confines of your marriage is find adventure in the marriage responsibly. I mean, there isn't anything better than a sexual relationship with someone you actually love. That's. There's nothing better than that. Period. The end. And so if you're not getting that excitement and adventure within your relationship, that's what you should be working on. And that's going to be hard. Like, in order for that to happen, there has to be nothing between you. You won't trust each other. You won't let each other go, you won't let yourself go if there's anything between you and your wife, let's say, and you're going to reduplicate every single bloody problem that you had with your wife with this new person, in all likelihood, people are indefinitely complex. And if you have put your wife in a pumpkin shell and she's not very exciting, then so you have to find someone new. Maybe you could try being a little more sophisticated and using a bit more encouragement, a little more daring, a little more dreaming some lingerie, you know, clue in. Seriously, all this nonsense. The New Yorker does this all the time. The magazine Polyamory is the new in thing. It's like there's no punishment severe enough for people that stupid except the consequences of their own idiocy. And this is what these parents are afraid of. They're afraid of it and they're and there are children involved. This is not going to work out well. It's never worked out well.

[Mikayla Peterson]

We're dealing with a pattern of misbehaviors with our son.

[Jordan Peterson]

Our 13 year old throws tantrums.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Our son turned to some substance abuse.

[Jordan Peterson]

Rules consistently applied with minimal force and plenty of patience. This is Dr. Jordan B. Peterson. Watch Parenting, my new Daily Wire plus series, May 25th.

[Mikayla Peterson]

We're dealing with misbehaviors. Our son, our 13 year old throws tantrums.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Our son turned to some substance abuse.

[Jordan Peterson]

Go to dailywireplus.com today.

[Audience Member]

So my question is how do I know if I'm actually building something important or just staying busy to feel productive? Sometimes it seems like I'm doing a lot, but I'm not sure with whether the path is right for me. That's my question. And I also want to say thank you very much, Dr. Jordan Peterson, for completely changing my life with his video views, mental models and the book 12 Rules of Our Life. Thank you very much.

[Jordan Peterson]

There are all sorts of markers that you can use to determine whether you're on a productive path. And one is that the goals that you have envisioned for yourself are sufficiently motivating so that you're inclined to work voluntarily or even enthusiastic about it. That would be best. And so that the direction that those goals provide protects you from undue, directionless anxiety. And so you have to negotiate with yourself to see if what you're aiming at satisfies you and fills you with hope. But then you don't have to do this alone. You know, corporations have boards so that people can discuss vision and strategy. And so I would say that it sounds to me like part of what you need is some people around you to bounce your ideas of the future and your strategies against so that you can stress test them and address your doubts. So, number one, negotiate with yourself to see if you believe that your plan gives you direction and hope and constrains direction sufficiently so you're not too stressed. And test that against the world and against the judgments of other people, understanding as well that even if you have a good plan, there's going to be some variability that's temperamentally determined in whether you're still anxious. You know, if you're higher in trait neuroticism, you're going to be more variable in your response to your goals and more prone to doubt. That's also partly why you bring other people on board to further your. Your investigation. I would also say you could give some thought to doing the future authoring program@self authoring.com.

[Mikayla Peterson]

I was going to say that. Yeah.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah. And just why were you going to say that?

[Mikayla Peterson]

Well, I mean, how do you know if you're on the right path? What's your path? So if you have a goal, like maybe this job isn't fulfilling something, but it's making you money while you pursue a larger goal, and maybe that's something you have to do for three or five years while you do something else, or maybe there's opportunity in the job that you're not seeing, but you need an aim. You taught me that. So where are you going? And then see if what you're doing is leading to that.

[Jordan Peterson]

Right, right. Okay. So, you know, is where you're going good?

[Mikayla Peterson]

Yeah.

[Jordan Peterson]

Is it leading away from somewhere bad? Those are two initial questions, and that's how the future authoring is structured. But then this is a way of assessing your aim. Well, what should your aim encompass? Well, we tried to break this down in the future authoring program. You want a meaningful life. Well, let's differentiate that. Well, do you have a plan for marriage? Do you have a plan for children? Do you have a plan to educate yourself? Do you have some sense of how you would or could take care of yourself mentally and physically, how you could be of service to your community? You know, that could be volunteering or it could be political. At all the different levels of political involvement that exist, what if your job.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Is also good for the community?

[Jordan Peterson]

Can you combine those then? Good. Okay, good, good. It's just another place where meaning can be derived. Right. And mentoring people is, is good for that. For example, it's extremely fulfilling for people. How are you going to protect yourself against temptation, drug and alcohol abuse, and sexual misbehavior. Like, the advantage to the future authoring program is that it provides a differentiated vision. And so this is what I would recommend to the gentleman who asked the question. It's like, go do that and do a bad job. Just sketch it out. Do a good first draft, you know, because you're not going to get it perfect and you're going to learn along the way. You can substitute a better plan if you come up with one right now, I wouldn't do that every week, you know, and that's the danger of someone who might be emotionally unstable, high in neuroticism, or really high in openness, or worse, both, you know, but make the best plan. You can discuss it with other people, implement it, then you'll learn. Then you can take what you learn and, you know, maybe every four months, every six months, every year, you can return to your plan and see if it needs some tweaking or some foundation work. It's a very good idea to move forward with a bad plan. It's a very good idea to do that compared to not moving forward and waiting. The problem with waiting is you get disenchanted and discouraged and you don't learn anything. If you implement a plan that isn't perfect, you'll learn exactly why it isn't perfect as you implement it, and then you'll be able to make a better plan. And that is how cybernetic self correction works. That's how complex systems that rely on feedback, true their aim across time. They start out with a fuzzy goal. This is even how large language models are trained. The aim is fuzzy to begin with, and then it tightens as it iterates. That's how. That's the definition of learning. And so with regard to the plan you have now, if you're not fully confident in it, well, flesh it out more, as I said, talk to other people about it. But then also understand that that's your plan unless you have a better one. And so stick to it, right? And if you stick to it and you learn as a consequence of your persistence, you will gather the information that will enable you to make a better plan. For sure, new opportunities will come your way and sometimes that'll mean a radical shift when it's time, and that's fine. But you're not going to do that without a bad plan even. And so if you don't think your plan is perfect, well, that doesn't mean that you're making a mistake. And then if you're really fortunate. And you watch. And this is sort of how you cooperate with your plan and with the divine, so to speak, without becoming hidebound and insistent that your way is. The right way is you have a plan and then you search to see if there's open doors on the way to the goal. Right. And if there's. If it's a good plan, people will spontaneously line up to cooperate with you.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is how you know all those. Well, it's either a scam, but, you know people who talk about manifesting.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Like manifest, it'll work. Those are either scam artists, which I think a good portion of them are, or they make a plan and are amazed at all the doors that open when they have a plan.

[Jordan Peterson]

That's exactly right. That's exactly what manifesting is. And there's. And you got that right. There's two parts to it. There's the scam part and the other part, which is doors. You know, it's like you're standing somewhere and there's 30 hallways in front of you, and down each of those hallways there are sets of doors. And so you choose a hallway and then you test the doors. And if you stay at the beginning of that, if you stay at the. On the landing, you go nowhere and no doors open. If you pick a pathway, you forego the other ones, at least temporarily. But then you start to see the doors, and then you can push and see are they opening. I would also say generally with the plan, generally the amount of your plan you're going to change should be proportionate to the magnitude of the opportunity, which means you can make a radical shift in your life now and then if the benefits are clear and overwhelming. Right. Or the risk is worth taking in this adventurous way. But other than that, you should tilt towards conservatism. Don't change anything in your plan that you don't have to change. Right. It's a tight. It's a tight balance to manage because you need to be able to pivot when circumstances have genuinely changed. But you don't want to upset yourself too badly by becoming a new person every 15 minutes, which is the curse of someone who's very high in openness.

[Mikayla Peterson]

And not very high in conscientious.

[Jordan Peterson]

Well, that's. Yes. Right, right, right. Yep.

[Mikayla Peterson]

That was good. I was. I've been super surprised every year. I've been doing, like, I like New Year's resolutions and things, but. So once a year I'll make a plan for. And I shoot pretty high because you always taught me to shoot high. Who knows what you're capable of? So I shoot way further than I think I can get. I'm like, okay, this is my plan for 2025. And then I don't really look at it. So it's different than future authoring, which is really detailed and it's really helpful. But I also grew up with you as a dad, so I have that going for me. But I've been so surprised because every year I'll look at my goals again. I'll be like, you know what? I got through, like, 80% of these. Way higher than I was expecting. And it's because when you do make a plan, it's like your vision changes and you can see these open doors.

[Jordan Peterson]

You look at where you're headed. I mean, this is literally how perception works. You look at where you're headed. Okay. You need to be headed somewhere that also works in abstraction. Okay. Now that you're headed somewhere, the world divides itself into pathways forward. Right. Things that help you along your way, things that get in your way, and irrelevant things. Most things are irrelevant once you've specified a pathway that also controls anxiety. Right. There's lots of things you don't have to look at when you're going that way.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Definitely.

[Jordan Peterson]

Okay. Things that help you, things that get in your way. That works socially. Friends and foes. So pathways, tools, obstacles, friends, foes. And then agents of magical transformation. And agents of magical transformation change your aim. Right. And that's the role they play in fiction, for example, wizards and magical beings change the game. And that's the world. It really. That's how you see the world. That's how your vision works. That's how you hear things. That's how the world presents itself to you. So no goal, no doorways. No goal, no pathway. Right, yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Or random, horrible doorways.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah, sure, sure.

[Mikayla Peterson]

That lead, like, upside down.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah, right.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Yeah.

[Jordan Peterson]

Right, right.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Yeah. That was helpful.

[Jordan Peterson]

If you hear a baby screaming, uh, she's hungry.

[Audience Member]

But how does one distinguish between a.

[Jordan Peterson]

Relationship that requires personal growth and sacrifice to thrive and one that is fundamentally.

[Audience Member]

Misaligned with one's deeper values and should be let go.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

If that person is going through that and also just had a baby, I would say wait a little bit, because you're in baby mode right now and it's pure chaos for at least a year.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah, fair.

[Mikayla Peterson]

If that's the case.

[Jordan Peterson]

It'S very hard to deal with a partner that lies.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jordan Peterson]

That's. Now, if they're lying, and that's improving?

[Mikayla Peterson]

I don't know.

[Jordan Peterson]

Well, look, people don't start out 100% trustworthy. You know, the more lies there are, the harder it is by a lot. But you can see a trajectory of improvement. That's, that's really important. If you're negotia, can the person negotiate? Do they negotiate in good faith and do they implement the consequences of the negotiation? You know, you can, you can take a relationship that's got quite a bit of, quite a number of kinks in it and straighten it out across time. If people will commit to the process and tell you the truth. If, if it's a downhill slope, continually no improvement whatsoever, then. Then you're playing a game that you probably can't win.

[Mikayla Peterson]

I think that's a pretty good answer. I think the lying part is key too. Like, that's. I don't. There's nothing more important than that, right? Otherwise you can't sort out a problem. You'd be like, can we fix it? Sure, we could fix it. That's a lie.

[Jordan Peterson]

You know, it also makes you question your own sanity.

[Mikayla Peterson]

That's. Yes.

[Jordan Peterson]

You know, if you're, if you're with someone who insists that the way you see things when you're trying to see them as accurately as you can, is a delusion or faulty. It's insanity making.

[Mikayla Peterson]

How often do you think that happens in relationship?

[Jordan Peterson]

A lot.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Isn't that pathological, though? Like, isn't that a disorder of some site, some sort, if somebody does that? Or, or is it not pathological and lots of people experience it?

[Jordan Peterson]

Well, I don't really think there is any difference between personality psychopathology in its most disruptive guise and the proclivity lie. You know, all of the psychotherapeutic schools are predicated on the assumption that truth redeems the collaborative empiricism I was talking about before, it's like, put it to the test, watch what happens. That assumes truth in relationship to the analysis of the outcome and, and iterate psychoanalytic free association. That's just truth. Say whatever comes to your mind. Well, that's what you do when you're telling the truth. You just say you can get. Become a master at that. Like, I try. Am I a master at that? I'm not perfect, but I do say what comes to mind. That's the manner in which I direct my words. I'm not trying to. Well, I have an aim. Hopefully the aim is to make things better. And no, it's more differentiated than that, but that's the overall aim. Do I want to make things worse? No, I'd rather make them better. For how many people? Well, for the people that I'm primarily responsible for, first and foremost, but then everyone else that can be managed. And then I try to say what aids that I'm not manipulating towards some determined end.

[Mikayla Peterson]

You think? There are some things that you should figure out early, though, uh, where they just don't work. Like if one person is extremely organized and extremely high in conscientiousness and the other person isn't, like, is extremely low. Well, but those things you should figure out early.

[Jordan Peterson]

We have this Understand Myself personality questionnaire.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Yeah.

[Jordan Peterson]

Right. And it has a couples component and.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Which is great, by the way. And everybody should do it.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

That's like, my favorite thing. Other than Peterson Academy. That's my favorite thing.

[Jordan Peterson]

Why?

[Mikayla Peterson]

Developed. I've been using that since we had to score it on paper.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Like, I was obsessed with that. I was the one that said we should do a couple's.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Version.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Was using it to screen people. I don't know. You know what it does? It sorts through extroverts, too. Because you meet an extrovert, especially if you're an extroverted person, you're like, I like this person. This person is great.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

And extroversion just coats every other part of their personality. And you're like, this person is super fun.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

I had that problem with hiring for a while.

[Jordan Peterson]

Right.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Like, are they awesome or are they extroverted? And a lot of the time it was like, oh, they scored 94th in extroversion. Who knows what they're really like.

[Jordan Peterson]

Right.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Because it can hide low conscientiousness. So they can be a total slob and not care about it.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

But really be really charming.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

That, like, that can be hidden or neurotic. Like high neuroticism. So they're extremely volatile, but also very charming.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

So just figuring out your personality and your partner's personality and being like, okay, are there things here that we have to discuss to see if we can work through?

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

And one of those has got to be conscientious.

[Jordan Peterson]

Oh, well, all of the. All of the traits, I would say, is the. The wider you are apart on a given trait, the harder it is to bridge the gap. Now, there can be some advantages. Like if you're your. Your grandmother. Your mom's mom was pretty introverted.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Yeah.

[Jordan Peterson]

And your grandfather was really extrovert, and she valued that in him. And it helped her a lot because it opened up the Social space. So that's on the extroverted side. Conscientiousness. That's a rough one. If there's a huge split in conscientiousness, I suppose it's all to the advantage of the unconscientious person.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Yeah, you just end up. If you're the conscientious one, you'll just end up cleaning for the rest of your life.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

And time management is a hard one. Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan Peterson]

Openness is another tough one.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan Peterson]

You know, if you. One of you is very, very open, interested in ideas, interest in aesthetic experience, and the other is very low in openness. It's like you' speaking different languages.

[Mikayla Peterson]

This also might be helpful if people do find themselves in a situation where they have dated a number of people and they're like, it's not working, it's not working, it's not working. Am I a narcissistic, horrible person and is that the problem? Or maybe you've got some extreme personality traits that are kind of rare. Because I think that's part of what happened to me with being. I just wasn't. I'm an extreme person. And I was like, is it me? I'm the problem? I mean, technically that would make me the problem. But then I found another extreme person. I was like, okay, now we can be lunatics together.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah, well, I was fortunate with your mother too, because she's a lot like me, but not quite so much so. You know, your mum would be in the upper echelons of extroversion among a hundred people. Right. She'd be more extroverted than say 75 of those people, or 80 even. But I'm like more extroverted than 10,000 people.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Yeah.

[Jordan Peterson]

So I've always been that way. Right. I talk ever since I was. Could talk. I never stopped.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Yeah, that's pretty funny.

[Jordan Peterson]

Got any concluding thoughts? I can wrap up a little bit.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Yeah, you. You go for it. I thought that was fun.

[Jordan Peterson]

We started by talking about conservatism in. In this non political sense. If your life is a mess, you should think hard about doing what other people have always done. And what does that mean? Well, we kind of outlined that with the future authoring program. You know, get married, have some friends that you value and think about what that's what that means. Sort your family out, get your career together, educate yourself. Figure out how to resist temptation, serve your community. Right. Do all those things. See what your life's like if it's not still what you want. Well, maybe you're some or open lunatic. And you have to do something, Something, you know, really different. But even then, binding that within the confines of all those other things, that's a. That's a good idea. Take a small step in the direction that you want things to go and build from that. And that's. That's always a good exploratory tech technique. Something minimal in the right direction. Right.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Okay. Well, that was fun. Thanks for including me.

[Jordan Peterson]

Well, thank you for setting it up and for agreeing to do it and for finding the questions and.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Yeah, and thanks for paying attention. Thanks for everybody who submitted questions.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Hopefully people enjoyed it or found it helpful.

[Jordan Peterson]

Yeah, yeah. And I. I definitely enjoy this sort of thing and. Which is why I'm a psychologist, not a politician. Seriously, it's. It's the right level of analysis for me, and it's a more fundamental level anyways, because the fundamental way people put the world together is by putting themselves together and, and working to fortify and improve the relationships they have at hand. If everyone did that, there'd be no reason to even have the political.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Agreed.

[Jordan Peterson]

Right. So for everybody who's watching and listening, we're going to now go over to the Daily Wire side of things and do another half an hour, take probably two more questions, and so give some consideration to joining us over there. Much appreciated.