Podcast Summary: The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Episode 553: Why Do Smart People Double Down On Bad Ideas? | Dr. Gad Saad

Release Date: June 5, 2025

In Episode 553 of "The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast," host Dr. Jordan B. Peterson engages in a profound and intellectually stimulating conversation with Dr. Gad Saad, a renowned professor of marketing at Concordia University in Montreal. The episode delves into the perplexing phenomenon of why intelligent individuals often steadfastly adhere to flawed ideas despite overwhelming evidence against them. Through a blend of personal anecdotes, academic insights, and mythological references, Dr. Peterson and Dr. Saad explore the intricate dynamics of belief systems, academic integrity, and the evolutionary underpinnings of human behavior.

1. The Persistence of Faulty Beliefs

[00:15 - 00:48]

Dr. Gad Saad initiates the discussion by highlighting a surprising aspect of human nature: "the inability of people to change their minds despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary." This phenomenon, Saad suggests, is a pervasive issue across various domains, where individuals refuse to adjust their beliefs even when presented with substantial contradictory evidence.

Dr. Peterson echoes this sentiment, pondering, "Why do people double down instead of changing even in the face of accelerating evidence of error?" The conversation underscores a fundamental challenge in both personal and societal contexts: overcoming cognitive rigidity and fostering open-mindedness.

2. The Impact of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) in Academia

[05:04 - 10:41]

The discussion transitions to the influence of DEI initiatives within academic institutions. Dr. Saad shares his firsthand experiences, recounting his near-appointment to the Harvard Business School position in the 1990s. He attributes his unsuccessful bid to the burgeoning emphasis on diversity over merit, stating, "Because of the DEI statement, I wasn't willing to do."

Dr. Peterson reflects on the shift in academic priorities over the decades, noting, "From the 80s through about 2010, merit was still essentially prioritized, but all that other idiocy had come creeping in." The conversation critiques the current state of higher education, suggesting that the focus on DEI has undermined the traditional values of meritocracy and academic excellence.

Dr. Saad further emphasizes the extent of DEI's influence, citing a study by the Aristotle Foundation which found that "477 out of 489 postings involve diversity, inclusion, and equity" in Canadian universities. He laments the restrictive requirements that DEI imposes on academic pursuits, leading to intellectual stagnation and reduced research funding.

3. Personal Reflections on Leaving Academia

[12:11 - 15:05]

Dr. Peterson discusses his departure from academia, juxtaposing it with Dr. Saad's continued presence within the "ecosystem of infinite lunacy." He articulates the benefits of leaving traditional academic roles, such as embarking on a global lecture tour and establishing the thriving Peterson Academy. Yet, he acknowledges the loss of a robust research career as a significant downside, juxtaposing this with challenges in his clinical practice due to ideological constraints.

Dr. Saad relates by mentioning his leave from Concordia University, attributing it to the untenable environment fostered by DEI mandates. He humorously notes, "They were probably also celebrating," reflecting mutual frustration with institutional policies that prioritize ideology over intellectual rigor.

4. Mythological Archetypes and Institutional Blindness

[16:06 - 27:03]

Dr. Peterson introduces a rich tapestry of mythological references to elucidate the concept of institutional willful blindness. He recounts the Egyptian myth of Osiris and Seth, illustrating how established institutions can become rigid and blind to parasitic invasions. "Osiris can't kill Seth because Seth is a force that usurps and parasitizes never dies," Peterson explains, drawing parallels to modern academic institutions succumbing to destructive ideologies.

He further ties this to Egyptian and Mesopotamian reverence for vision and attention, emphasizing the importance of awareness in resisting parasitic influences. "The deity of the revivification of the corrupt state for the Egyptians was literally the open eye," Peterson asserts, highlighting the symbolic significance of vigilance in maintaining institutional integrity.

5. Sacrifice, Delayed Gratification, and Evolutionary Psychology

[35:04 - 43:32]

A significant portion of the conversation explores the evolutionary basis of delayed gratification and its impact on personal and societal success. Dr. Saad references the "Parasitic Mind," discussing how evolutionary psychology informs human motivation and decision-making. He underscores the importance of sacrificing immediate pleasures for long-term benefits, citing examples like the marshmallow test, which links delayed gratification in childhood to greater life success.

Dr. Peterson elaborates on the biblical story of Abraham as a metaphor for sacrifice and delayed gratification. He posits that Abraham's journey, marked by enduring hardships and resisting immediate temptations, exemplifies the evolutionary advantage of prioritizing future rewards over present gains. "Sacrifice is the ritual of delay, of work," Peterson explains, aligning this with the broader human instinct to secure long-term stability and opportunity.

6. Trait Conscientiousness vs. Delayed Gratification

[51:41 - 57:26]

The dialogue delves into the relationship between trait conscientiousness and the ability to delay gratification. Dr. Saad recounts his research attempting to correlate conscientiousness with delayed decision-making, which yielded primarily null results. "We couldn't find a relationship," he admits, leading to challenges in publishing his findings due to academic biases against null results.

Dr. Peterson expands on this by discussing the Big Five personality traits, explaining how conscientiousness—marked by orderliness and industriousness—predicts long-term success independently of IQ. However, he notes, "We couldn't find...an actual behavioral task that indexed [trait conscientiousness]." This highlights the complexity of measuring personality traits and their manifestations in behavior.

7. Evolutionary Parasites and Academic Institutions

[64:11 - 72:16]

Dr. Peterson and Dr. Saad explore the concept of parasitism within academic institutions, likening entrenched ideologies and parasitic ideas to biological parasites that drain value without contributing to the host's survival. Peterson ties this to evolutionary theories on sex, suggesting that sexual reproduction evolved as a defense against parasites by promoting genetic diversity.

Dr. Saad underscores the pervasiveness of parasitic ideas in contemporary academia, lamenting the shift from merit-based institutions to ideology-driven entities. "I'm longing for the day that we can go back to those kinds of institutions," he expresses, advocating for a return to intellectual purity and conscientious scholarship.

8. Consilience and the Integration of Knowledge

[72:16 - 76:19]

The conversation shifts to the concept of consilience—the unity of knowledge across disciplines. Dr. Saad praises Dr. Peterson's ability to bridge ancient narratives with contemporary psychological truths, labeling both as "consilient thinkers." He references E.O. Wilson's work, particularly "Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge," emphasizing the importance of interdisciplinary approaches in fostering groundbreaking ideas.

Dr. Peterson agrees, highlighting the necessity of integrating diverse fields to achieve comprehensive understanding and innovation. "You're building a link between science and religion," he acknowledges, reinforcing the value of holistic intellectual exploration.

9. Closing Remarks and Future Discussions

[76:19 - 77:58]

As the episode concludes, Dr. Peterson and Dr. Saad discuss their upcoming topics, including Dr. Saad's new book "Suicidal Empathy," which examines the complexities of maternal instincts and their psychological impacts. They express mutual enthusiasm for future collaborations and continued dialogues on pressing intellectual and societal issues.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Gad Saad [00:15]: "The inability of people to change their minds despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary."

• Dr. Jordan B. Peterson [07:44]: "Merit was still essentially prioritized, but all that other idiocy had come creeping in."

• Dr. Gad Saad [09:07]: "I've been forced out in my ability to pursue my research because of many of these ideological commitments that you have to publicly proclaim."

• Dr. Jordan B. Peterson [16:02]: "It's like maintenance of a frame of reference, a narrow, goal-directed, task-oriented frame of reference despite competing temptations."

• Dr. Gad Saad [43:32]: "If you put people in a state of enhanced positive emotion, they're more likely to discount the future because that's the activation of that appetitive system."

• Dr. Jordan B. Peterson [57:55]: "The biggest breakthroughs in science happen at the intersections of disciplines."

• Dr. Gad Saad [62:51]: "That is a great Predictor of longevity. It's a pretty good Predictor of marital stability."

• Dr. Jordan B. Peterson [70:40]: "Consciousness and conscientiousness is a very good Predictor of long term success."

Conclusion

This episode offers a deep dive into the psychological and evolutionary factors that influence human adherence to beliefs, the challenges within modern academic institutions, and the broader implications for personal and societal growth. Dr. Peterson and Dr. Saad's dialogue provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of why intelligent individuals might cling to flawed ideas and how institutional dynamics can either support or hinder intellectual integrity and progress.

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