← The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
557. Balancing Pregnancy, Motherhood and Work | Riley Gains
01:23:53
Riley Gaines returns to speak with Dr. Jordan Peterson about marriage, pregnancy, and what it means to pursue both motherhood and mission in a culture that tells women they must choose. Riley shares how her decision to keep fighting for women’s sports and biological reality has only deepened since becoming pregnant with a daughter—and why she refuses to slow down. The fight was already personal. Now—it’s as deep as lineage. This episode was filmed on June 23rd, 2025 | Links | For Riley Gaines: On X https://x.com/riley_gaines_?lang=en Watch or listen to “Gaines For Girls” on Outkick https://www.outkick.com/shows/gaines-for-girls?_gl=1*2dhubm*_ga*NDY5NDY0Nzc2LjE3NTAxODQ0NjM.*_ga_4PQFY920BX*czE3NTA5NTg0NzMkbzIkZzEkdDE3NTA5NTg0NzQkajU5JGwwJGgw Read “Swimming Against the Current: Fighting for Common Sense in a World That’s Lost its Mind” https://a.co/d/hQOceSV Website https://www.rileygaines.com/
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- [00:00]
Riley Gaines
Our state has changed a lot in the last 140 years. We know because Multicare has been here guided by a single making our communities healthier. That comes from making courageous decisions, partnering with local communities to grow programs and services, and expanding healthcare access to those who need it most. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn more@mycare.org.
- [00:31]
Jordan Peterson
Well, I understand first that you have a big event pending in your life.
- [00:35]
Riley Gaines
We actually just announced we are expecting a little baby girl.
- [00:39]
Jordan Peterson
You've got a busy schedule ahead of you. What'll that mean for you?
- [00:42]
Riley Gaines
Practically full steam ahead. That's how I view it.
- [00:45]
Jordan Peterson
You know, you haven't been doing political work for very long and yet you've had a massive impact.
- [00:50]
Riley Gaines
Clearly now we're not living in 2020 anymore. I would say 2025 has been a total cultural, societal, political shift from then.
- [00:59]
Jordan Peterson
That shows that the system is responsive and maybe that sanity can hold out against insanity.
- [01:05]
Riley Gaines
The family that I have, the home life that I have, my parents taught me to call out an injustice when I see it.
- [01:13]
Jordan Peterson
The claims that are being made to include men in women's sports on behalf of fairness are actually being made by people who, I would say quite bluntly, they hate people like you. They hate people who've managed to move themselves ahead in consequence of virtue display. Centering on fairness is a masquerade hiding malicious envy. It's not that they're upset that you're unfair. They despise merit.
- [01:41]
Riley Gaines
God has a way of laughing in your face when you express any sort of interest in your plans. He very clearly had different plans.
- [02:04]
Jordan Peterson
Munich, Porto, Brussels, Lillestrom, Amsterdam, Berlin, Budapest, Copenhagen, Gothenburg. What do all these cities have in common? Well, that's about a fifth of the European capitals and major cities that I'm coming to from the end of January to the end of March. If you go to jordanbpeterson.com you can find venue information and tickets. I'm bringing my tour an evening to transform your life to Europe, which seems I'm looking forward to it, put it that way. I've got lots of information to disseminate from my last four books on the psychological side and I want to share what I've learned and what I have to say with everybody who attends. And so that's Europe end of January to end of March 2026. Hope to see you there. Today we spoke to Riley Gaines, who made her name as a 12 time NCAA all American swimmers and who in 2022 had to face a male swimmer in a competition. Since then Riley has been an indefatigable opponent of the narcissistic psychopathic bullies who believe that it's reasonable for them to enter female sports competitions and steal the glory and the deserved accolades that they worked so hard to attain. Riley has been instrumental in changing legislation in 28 states, and she's now working to help state legislatures and Congress define the difference between a woman and a man, since we've come to that in our culture, so that this unfair bullying masquerading as progressive virtue signaling can be brought to an end. So join us for that. Well, Riley, you know, it's been just about exactly two years since we released our first podcast. Right. That was May 11, 2023. So the first thing I'd like to know. Well, I understand first that you have a big event pending in your life. So let's talk about that to begin with and then we'll go over the last two years.
- [04:27]
Riley Gaines
Yeah, I do. We are so excited, my husband and I. We actually just announced that we are expecting a little baby girl in just a few months. So.
- [04:37]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah. Well, congratulations. You're in for quite a. Quite a year. Any concerns? What are you looking forward to?
- [04:45]
Riley Gaines
You know, I am. Have lots of siblings. I'm the second oldest, so I would say I'm pretty nurturing in general.
- [04:53]
Jordan Peterson
Great, great. Well, you know, it is true that your life will change drastically. And the thing that surprises me, I guess, is that people reflexively assume that's a bad thing. Assuming as well, I suppose, that and this may be the case for you, that their life is so spectacularly wonderful as single people, as soul people, before they become parents, that any change is necessarily going to be negative. And it's very useful to enter into a situation where someone else is more important than you. It's like the definition of maturity. And so it's a sign of the pathology of our culture. I think that the typical attitude is that a baby will disrupt what. What's important. I don't know what it is that people are doing that's so important that a baby would disrupt it rather than adding to it.
- [05:57]
Riley Gaines
That's right. I know it's. It almost feels like, truthfully, I don't know again, if it's having lots of siblings, being very, very family oriented my entire life, I don't know what it is, but it feels almost as if this was like my purpose. And I think that's almost innate. I think it's something a lot of women feel, especially as they reach a certain age. But motherhood, to me it just, it didn't seem like an option of course, God willing, given that I have been blessed to have the capacity to do so and there was no issues or problems or fer fertility issues. It just feels so right, so natural. And I don't think that's. Maybe it hasn't always been the case, but I think especially once you start getting into your. Your 20s. I'm 25 at this point. It didn't seem like there was another option for me. I couldn't imagine the alternative. So everything has felt led to where we are are soon to be heading so very, very excited.
- [06:57]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, well, it seems to be a progressive trope that when you're in your 20s, particularly if you're female, you have nothing better to do than to serve a large evil corporation and make your way on the career path. I've never been able to reconcile that personally. How the progressives can be radically anti capitalist and pro career.
- [07:23]
Riley Gaines
That's true.
- [07:23]
Jordan Peterson
And of course most people don't have careers, they have jobs. And it isn't obvious at all that a job is preferable to family life.
- [07:30]
Riley Gaines
No, that's the lie that we've been fed. I think largely to blame the feminist movement, which has kind of become a taboo topic. It's become cliche to say that, but I think when you really, really think about it, right, this whole girl boss narrative that's been pushed and fed to young women, it's a total facade. And you're right. I think it's ironic too that these are the same people who, who screech when they hear the word capitalism and what this means. Yet they're same ones who are advancing women in the workplace and what this means and how women can excel and succeed. And of course I am the biggest believer of women putting themselves in positions to, to succeed in the athletic space and beyond. But that's not to say that again there is so much value in being a mom and fulfilling your role as a woman. The only, I guess I mean women can only fulfill this role. It can go the other way around. And there's something really beautiful and again magical to that that I believe serves a major purpose, of course in life and humanity. The sheer essence of humanity.
- [08:40]
Jordan Peterson
And so what's your plan for child care for the first while? How are you going to. Because it's obviously there's while tremendous demand on your time, tremendous opportunity to spend time with your child the first year. So how have you guys. And you've been married for how long now?
- [08:58]
Riley Gaines
I've been married for Three years now. My husband is from England. He came over to the States in 2018. He was an athlete at University of Kentucky as well. That's where we met. Started dating pretty immediately. We got married in my senior year of college, so started things off, you know, 21 years old, which is. Is early certainly by today's standards. Been married a little over three years. Decided at the beginning of this year that we would begin to try for children. Praise God. Actually, it was the first month we decided to. To really start trying that we were able to conceive in January. So baby is due in September. In terms of child care, what that looks like for. For me, not overly interested in having my child in someone else's care outside of family. Um, I've just heard too many horror stories. My older sister, she had her first baby, so made me an aunt just about 10 months ago. She works, her husband works. They don't have the luxury of being able to stay home and care for that child on a daily basis. And so he's in daycare. And the stories that you hear and the sicknesses that he comes home with, and I mean globally, really, these stories that you hear of, whether it's. It's preschool teachers or daycare providers, whatever it is, and the horrific acts that you see or the negligence that you see, it's just not something that. A position that I'm willing to put my child into. And granted, we have the luxury. My husband has a construction business, so he pours concrete here in Nashville, Tennessee. So there's a bit of flexibility there. Given the fact that he runs the cruise, he's able to. To control his schedule to a degree. And of course, with the position that I have found myself in and with what I'm able to do, lots of travel, of course, I would say I spend about 260, 70 days a year on the road. But with that also able to stay home, I get to kind of make my own schedule. So all that to say, I just don't think I'm willing to put my child's health or their care into someone else's into. To their reach so long as me and my husband are able to do it ourselves.
- [11:31]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah. Well, years ago, I did a review of daycare and its effects and the conclusions of the research literature at that time, and I don't imagine it's changed much in the interim, was that daycare under three for children under three is really not advisable. And that's particularly true in the first year. And that's fundamentally because There isn't really any form of care that I think it's safe to say that there isn't any form of care that can replace a mother's care, particularly in the first year, but really in the first three. And that's because infants are so dependent, especially in the first nine months. So it is. Well, it is unfortunate that we're in a situation now where it's a luxury for women to be able to stay home with their children. It's quite remarkable that we managed to produce that conundrum for families, for young families over the last 30 years, as if by design. So. Well, I hope you enjoy. Goes by very quickly. Although it seems as soon as you have a baby, it doesn't take very long before it seems like that's always been the case and it's always going to be the case, but it doesn't last long. Hey, so what do you think about. You got married quite young. I mean, 21. What do you think about that?
- [13:00]
Riley Gaines
It has rarer now. It is rare. It has been the biggest blessing of my entire life. What it has been able to provide for me. I think getting married at 21, my husband 22 at the time, it's just a constant throughout all of the ups and downs of life. It is a. I mean, my husband, Louie, he's my rock, he is my best friend. He is my confidant. I mean, anything that I need, you have someone there who can provide for you or anything that he can do to help alleviate any sort of pressure or, I mean, anything. It has been the biggest, biggest blessing. And I was hesitant at first, truthfully, I was. The way this, the timeline of this, of course the incident, the experience that ultimately really gave me the platform that I had, that national championships where there was a man in the pool with us. So we competed. And it was actually the next day that my husband proposed to me. At the time, my life plans were obviously to not be doing what I am doing now. Who could have ever expected that this was the direction that my life would go or that this issue would continue to go. At the time I was set to be in dental school, I had already accepted my seat. I was going to University of Tennessee with hopes to specialize in endodontics, which is root canals. Weirdly enough, I'd taken the dat, which is the dental admissions test. I had scored in the top percentile nationally, could have gone anywhere in the nation that I wanted to go to pursue dentistry, had been awarded tens of thousands of dollars in scholarship funds to, to continue down this career path that I had really prepared for, that I felt like was, was everything that I had ever imagined myself doing post graduating undergraduate that proposed the next day after, after that national championships, again my mindset was dental school. So I told him prior to proposing, like, really don't propose, like, I'm not ready yet, I'm going to school, you'll still be living in Nashville. It just didn't make much sense to do this. But he didn't listen to me and praise God that he did not listen to me. And I think that's, that's the funny thing about it. Our plans. God has a way of, of laughing in your face when you express any sort of interest in your plans. He very clearly had different plans. And so of course I said yes when my husband proposed and, and all of those feelings of hesitation and doubt went out of the, the window immediately and was just so excited for what this future would look like and how we would make this work. But in those months leading up to dental school, I realized of course, the gravity of this issue. How it wasn't going away, how it was continuing to persist with no signs of slowing down, how there were still so few voices, so people, so few people willing to put their name in their face to this issue. Therefore, I almost felt an, an obligatory duty to continue to down this road of activism, if you will. And again, hesitant to call myself an activist at first because I think when you hear the word activist, you almost picture a person with blue hair who's screeching. And that is very much not me. I'm not a provocateur, I'm not an agitator, I'm not an instigator. It's. I try to approach every conversation very level headed. So I was hesitant to call myself that. But of course I realized pretty early on that I am an activist. I'm proud to be an activist. And we need more activists. I on our side. And when I say our side, I don't mean that partisanly, I mean on the side of common sense. And so I realized I couldn't continue doing both dental school and this activism with the efficacy that I knew I wanted to have in each respective field. And so I had to make a decision, do I continue on with dental school? And so I'm asking my husband, what do I do? Looking for advice, looking for an answer. I'm not typically an indecisive person, but it felt like such a, I mean, this decision would predict the rest of my life. And he just says, you know, do what you want to do, which was no help to me. And so, almost in this moment of weakness, I ended up calling the dental school, the admissions office. Bear in mind, the entire time throughout this process of dental school, I had again continued my activism, but not let my peers know who I was. I was very hesitant. I was scared that, I mean, all the things that they told me were going to happen, right? I would lose my friends, I would lose my spot in dental school. The list goes on. You name it. All the different risk and the threats that they said exist. I believed that at the time. And so I didn't let anyone know who I was. And so I called the admissions office, and very vaguely, I just said, hey, you know, something personal has come up in my life right now, and I'm just looking for guidance. And so she stopped me before I could even finish the sentence. And she said, look, Riley, we know who you are, and we know what you do. But it took me by surprise, it really did, when she. The next thing she said was, and we love what you do. She said, I can't tell you what to do. Of course I can't. But I will tell you, you will have far more impact fighting that fight than you will ever have being a dentist. So she said, you know, we'll hold your spot if that's what you choose to do. If you choose to fight that fight, we'll hold your seat. Your all of the money that you've already spent here. Anytime you want to come back, you have a spot here, but you'll have far more impact fighting that fight. And it felt like Jordan. It felt like God winking at me like that was the clarity that I needed to ultimately feel confident and secure enough to take that initial leap of faith. But all that to say the question was about my husband and getting married young. I don't think this process would have looked the same had we not gotten married had he not proposed. The day after that race happened between Will Thomas and myself.
- [19:19]
C
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- [19:48]
Jordan Peterson
Now, you said that you told your husband not to propose and that you had planned to go to dental school, but he ignored you and did anyways. And then you rapidly accepted. And so I'm curious about that. You know, you had a, you had a very fully fleshed out plan, one that would have led to your financial independence and a relatively prestigious professional occupation. And so that was laid out. And you'd also explicitly told your fiance, or your soon to be fiance, not to propose. Yet he did and you accepted. And so how do you make sense of that? This is not a critique, I'm just obviously. But I'm very curious because you had a plan and you were somewhat insistent about it, and yet when push came to shove, you shift change directions quite rapidly.
- [20:50]
Riley Gaines
I think when thinking back to again three years ago, over three years ago, at this point in the direction I believed my life to go, the school, University of Tennessee, their dental school is actually in Memphis. My husband again living in Nashville, it's about a three hour drive. There wasn't much of an appeal to me to living three hours away from my fiance or from my husband. Uh, it wasn't something I wanted to do, it wasn't something I, I even felt really willing to do at the time. But it all changed in such a brief instant. When he got down on one knee. Um, my husband would, would maybe be embarrassed if I said this, but it was the most beautiful, like sweetest thing ever. Before he even got down on one knee, he was in tears, just overwhelmed with emotion at the, the thought of a future together. Um, and I saw that and I, I think more, more so I felt that and I saw that vision as well. And so immediately like it, it almost like there wasn't even a question in my mind was I going to say yes. I always knew the whole time he was the person for me. It was more so just a timing thing. But in that moment I was willing to do whatever it took, whatever, however we needed to adapt given, you know, living three hours apart, what I believe to be living three hours apart in just a few months from, from that point, I. Seeing that and feeling that and knowing in that moment he would do anything for me, it changed immediately to where, of course, I was going to say yes.
- [22:24]
Jordan Peterson
So initially you presumed you would still be going to dental school after you said yes, and it wasn't until a little later when you talked to the dental school, for example, that you decided to forego that opportunity. Have I got the sequence right?
- [22:39]
Riley Gaines
Yes. Yes, sir. So when he proposed that was still the plan. And it wasn't until I was already in school where ultimately I decided I just couldn't do both in the way and with the. The again the efficacy that I knew I wanted to have in each.
- [22:58]
Jordan Peterson
Right. So how long were you in dental school?
- [23:01]
Riley Gaines
So let's see here. The timeline was about. We started school, I think in July and I ultimately made this decision in July. So it was pretty early on. Things had just really started to get going. You're buying all of your gear and your equipment and all the things that you need. But before we got super in depth in any of the studies or things that came with the schooling part of it, that, that's, that's when I made that decision.
- [23:34]
Jordan Peterson
Okay. Okay. So now I want to get into the. The direction that your life has taken. Well, since. Since the proposal. Really? Really. Since we talked last as well. Oh, I was thinking too. I don't think you are on. Sorry, what was the name you used? It wasn't agitator. It was.
- [23:56]
Riley Gaines
A provocateur.
- [23:58]
Jordan Peterson
Activist.
- [23:58]
Riley Gaines
Activist.
- [23:59]
Jordan Peterson
I don't think you're an activist, Riley. I think you're a conscientious.
- [24:04]
Riley Gaines
I like that.
- [24:05]
Jordan Peterson
Well, I was thinking about it. I was thinking we needed a different name because people who speak on behalf of their conscience aren't the same people who speak to. For the purposes of narcissistic self aggrandizement and to virtue signal. And the typical college campus activist, for example, fits very well into the narcissistic self aggrandizement category. In fact, there's an increasingly voluminous body of psychological research suggesting, for example, that one of the best predictors of the desire to redistribute income isn't fairness, which if measured properly, doesn't seem to enter into the equation at all, but malicious envy. So George Orwell was correct when he said that the typical middle class socialists didn't love the poor, they just hated the rich, which is a completely different phenomenon. And it's also the case that the activist types tend to be narcissistic, psychopathic, Machiavellian. So they use their language to manipulate and also sadistic. They take positive delight in the suffering of others. So that's the activist crowd. Malicious envy combined with the dark tetrad. And you're not in that situation because you were responding to an unbelievably pathological sequence of events that ended up pitting you and many other women against exactly these dark tetrad types. The Thomas character, Will Thomas, who purported to be a woman so that he could have a competitive chance at a high level, despite the fact that he was, what. How tall is Will Thomas? Six foot four, something like that.
- [26:02]
Riley Gaines
That's right.
- [26:03]
Jordan Peterson
A massive man. Right, right. And so activist isn't right? Conservative activists, generally speaking, of your sort, aren't activists.
- [26:13]
Riley Gaines
Well, I.
- [26:14]
Jordan Peterson
Speaking on behalf of their conscience, I.
- [26:16]
Riley Gaines
Appreciate you saying that because truthfully, it's one of the. And I agree entirely. It's one of the biggest pieces of criticism that I receive from those on the other side is they say, well, you're just doing this. You know, you're being a grifter. That's the word they use, grifter. Which is amazing to me, because, again, you think back to 2021, 2022, when this all came about, it wasn't the cool thing to say that men and women are different. I think back to the risk that I believed I was taking. Granted, I will say a lot of those things, actually, virtually all of those things. Again, I told you how they said, you'll lose your friends. They told us in undergrad, you'll lose your scholarship. They told us awful things about how our rhetoric was killing people, how we were essentially murderers in this equation. Telling us how we were equivalent to the KKK and white supremacists because we were advocating for segregation. All things. Again, ashamed to say it as a staunch. Well, I will say as a Christian, my entire life, of course, with leaving me with staunch conservative views. My entire life, all those things I believed, but none of them have happened. I haven't lost a single friend. But nonetheless, that was the environment in 2020. Clearly, now we're not living in 2020 anymore. I would say 2025 has been a total cultural, societal, political shift from then, but it wasn't the cool thing to say. I believed I was taking a lot of risk at the time. Granted, there have only been opportunities for me. I've only made more friends, developed more relationships, which again, shows. Goes to show you, I think, just how silent the silent majority was only a few years ago. But this word grifter, it's been totally that word. It irks me so badly. No one can give you a proper definition of what it means. And they can't stand the fact when you speak based on your ethics or your moral compass or your conscience, as you said.
- [28:28]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, well, I leaned into that idea very early because one of the things I realized pretty much immediately was that there was almost nothing more comical than making money off of progressives. You know, one of the things we do, which I think is extremely funny when I'm touring and lecturing now. And then there's protests, although they're getting pretty few and far between. And we, we made it a policy to film the protests and to use them in advertisements because I think it's, I think it's reasonable to be. And maybe it was a little different for me than it would be for you, maybe our situation was somewhat different, but I don't think there's anything more comical than making money from progressive idiocy. It's perfectly comical. And so, and that's the idea that, the idea, I suppose, is that you did it for the, for the fame, for the glory, for the money. But as you point out, and this was certainly the case with me as well, the probability that. Well, first of all, your belief that speaking out was likely to lead to disaster would have likely been true four years earlier. You know, you probably just caught the, you just caught the transition, so to speak. In 2020, it was starting to become acceptable to say that things that you were saying. But four years earlier you certainly would have paid for it dearly. And you had every reason to assume in 2020 that the same would be the case. Plus, if you're going to be a grifter, opposing the woke mob is a very, what would you say? High risk, high risk endeavor with a low probability of payoff. So it's not much of a grift. You have to dance pretty hard to make it into something that's monetarily successful, even though it is hilarious if you can manage it. So, so, so much for that. I would also say a fair bit of that is projection. Like I said, I've been following the psychological research on the personality traits of the activist types, and this goes for the nature worshiping environmentalists as well. And it's almost entirely performative and narcissistic. And so when people like that see someone taking a public stance, their logical assumption is that their logical assumption for them to make is that such people must be motivated by the same motivations they share, even, even though that's clearly not the case. So so much for the grift angle. And a fair bit of that's jealousy and spite making itself manifest in social media channels as well. So, okay, so back to your decision to continue with your political work, let's call it that, and not your activism, your political and communication, your political work and your communication, which is what you're doing. So you were in dental school and what sort of opportunities. Tell me, tell me what you're you said you were, you know, traveling 260 days out of the year, which is pretty much all the time. Tell me what a typical week or two week period or month look has looked like. Maybe we can start back in 2022 or thereabouts or even. Well, we talked in, we talked in March of 2023, so maybe we could pick it up there. Tell me what a typical week or day or month looks like for you now.
- [32:11]
Riley Gaines
Well, I think it looks very different now than at the beginning. But I think the beginning has ultimately led me to where I am now. Again, going back to 2022 or even when we spoke in 2023, I very much had this mindset of just saying yes to, to whoever and whatever the opportunity was, so long as it gave this issue more, more credibility or credence. Things to talk about. So oftentimes that would mean getting in front of different legislative bodies. One of the things that honestly I think to be one of my greatest passions throughout all of these, these, the different aspects and realms that come with this position that I have found myself in. I have loved the state policy side of things and so travel all over, I know, traveling all over the nation to help draft legislation, to speak with lawmakers, teach them how to talk about these issues, to testify, to be there for any sort of ceremonial signings on bills that I helped work on. And of course none of that is paid work. It's just being willing to lend a helping hand when and where it's needed. So that's taken a lot. You mentioned the campus activism. That's something that I've truthfully loved, I think for a couple reasons. I think number one, you're able to push back on the narrative that's out there of you. Again, I'm so often people in my comments on social media, whatever it is, I mean, they act like I'm this big scary monster. Jordan, I'm 5 foot 5 and like 130 pounds. Like I'm not this, this evil, scary being. I'm just a girl, a woman at this point who was desperately wanting fairness and a chance to compete and to succeed. That's it. So to be able to push back on the narrative that's out there, but also to engage and mobilize the younger generation, the youth. I feel so passionately about that. I think we're a demographic that's often left out of these important deemed political conversations.
- [34:30]
Jordan Peterson
So which demographic are you speaking of specifically?
- [34:33]
Riley Gaines
College age kids. I would say first time voters, Shopify.
- [34:38]
C
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- [35:36]
Riley Gaines
I think are you.
- [35:38]
Jordan Peterson
Speaking more to boys or girls or men or women?
- [35:41]
Riley Gaines
I would say it's a pretty good split. Although, you know, maybe thinking of some of the different audiences I found myself in, I think it's natural to assume maybe there are more women there, given this is an issue that of course you and I know affects all of humanity. But you see the, the statistics, how women are being more adversely affected, whatever it is. So I, I would say it's a lot of, it's a good mix, but maybe more so women. So I have, I've really loved that aspect of it. Something I feel very passionately about. Just, just. I think part of it's being an athlete too. Growing up an athlete, competing at the highest level, almost that mentorship, if you will. I love that and I feel like that's what I'm able to provide on these campuses. So been to about 80 or probably upwards of a hundred now, different campuses, both colleges. And then I would say last year I really started going to high schools too and wasn't, wasn't overly in, you know, I didn't know if this was a good idea at first, getting in front of high school students. They're so young. We have, you know, there's not a lot of, we're not on the same maturity level. We're not at the same stage of life anymore. Me being a 25 year old woman at this point. But I realized the other side, they don't have an age to which they're not willing to talk to. Therefore our side shouldn't either. We should be able to feel comfortable being raw and being vulnerable and speaking the truth to all ages, I think especially high school kids. Again, such an impressionable age. So much life ahead of you, yet you're in that position, 16, 17, 18 years old, where you're making decisions that will impact the rest of your life, what that looks like. So that's been a large part of what I do. That's what's kept me on the road a lot of times as well. So for a while it was totally like flying by the seat of my pants. But I will say now, I think especially after Donald Trump winning on November 5th of last year, with a little more stability, a little more coverage too, more people who are willing to say what you and I have been saying for a long time now, it's almost like there's a little army that's been deployed. So with that, you can kind of take a step back, observe and see where you're really, really needed. And of course, I'll be there if that's the case.
- [38:21]
Jordan Peterson
So let's talk about these state legislative bodies. So how many state legislative bodies approximately have spoken in front of and how would you describe and gauge your impact on the legislative side? And, and I know it's what about half the states now have legislation either in place or pending regulating the participation of, of, well, really men in women's sports because you very rarely see the reverse. So walk us through that.
- [38:49]
Riley Gaines
Yes. So I couldn't even tell you how many states, but I there are 28 states now that have passed some sort of fairness and women's sports bill, ultimately, as you said, preventing men's participation on women's sports and vice versa. Nebraska being the most recent I've been to virtually and testified in front of virtually all of these, these state legislatures. And of course, this doesn't include the states that have not passed legislation, states like Maine, for example, or Connecticut or California. So, so lots of work being done.
- [39:29]
Jordan Peterson
Where they still think, where they still think it's fair for men to, for narcissistic men to steal the accomplishments of hard working and diligent young women in the name of fairness. Right. They're going to reward these narcissistic psychopaths and, and let them and often they're what they're even more narcissistic and grasping parents who push them forward into these sorts of competitions.
- [40:02]
Riley Gaines
You say where these Democrats and I hate to make it partisan, but again, that's the reality. I hate this is a partisan issue, but it's fallen entirely on party lines at every level, local, state and federal. So you say these Democrats, they, they do this out of what they believe to be is fair. I don't think that's a fair characterization. I don't think they, they're doing this because they think it's fair. I think they're, they're advocating for this position because they believe it to be necessary. They're willing to compromise on the fairness piece and the safety piece if it means inclusion is prioritized.
- [40:38]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah. Well, Riley, the, the data that I was describing to you, if you add, imagine you use three variables to predict support for these sorts of policies. One is malicious envy, one is fairness, and the other is compassion. Compassion does predict somewhat, but malicious envy is the best predictor. Fairness, as it turns out, doesn't enter it into at all, even though that's the claim. And so I would say, and I think it's useful to be realistic about this, is that the claims that are being made to include men in women's sports on behalf of fairness are actually being made by people who, I would say quite bluntly, they hate people like you. They hate people who've, who've managed to move themselves ahead in consequence of, to some degree, their good fortune because you were, you know, you were fortunate to be healthy. But it also takes a tremendous amount of discipline to be a high level competitive athlete, even a moderate level competitive athlete. And so all of this virtue display centering on fairness is a masquerade hiding malicious envy. And that's partly why you get the kind of resistance that you get too, and the anger. It's not that they're upset that you're unfair, it's that they despise merit. And it's the story of Cain, you know, it's the biblical story of Cain. Malicious envy as a mode of adaptation. And it's very necessary to unmask this and to call it what it is. And the fairness is nothing but the camouflage of Pharisees. And so, okay, so, so 28 legislative bodies have passed legislation now. And so what does that mean? And, and then you, you, you name some major states, including California, where all the pathology of the United States seem to fundamentally emanate from, are still too, I don't know what it is lost in 2016 to understand, understand that the tide is viciously turned. What has it meant for women's sports now? The fact that 28 states have passed legislation? And can you give us some idea of what that legislation like, what's a typical piece of legislation that you've been involved with what does it look like?
- [43:07]
Riley Gaines
Absolutely. Well, to speak from the federal level first, as it's, that's what's garnered a lot of attention recently with how President Trump has responded to people like Governor Newsom or like Governor Mills of Maine. What they've done at the federal level, of course, with Title nine, which as we are recording right now Today is the 53rd anniversary of Title 9. So it feels very timely, this conversation. But what that looks like is, is stripping of federal funds at the state level. Truthfully, there's not federal funds from what.
- [43:41]
Jordan Peterson
Federal funds from what, what disappears from.
- [43:44]
Riley Gaines
The education K through 12. That's why we have seen really a lot of this, this Title nine even they have now a special investigations unit that is the Department of Education kind of coupled with the Department of Justice, but a lot of it is managed under the Department of Education or the Office of Civil Rights. So that's a lot of what the, the federal funds issue being stripped. So, so for, take California, for example, a very different demographic than that of Maine. Well, let's look at Maine first. Maine, a very small, a very poor state. I, I don't know the exact number of how much they receive in federal funds annually every single year. I think it's somewhere 250 million ish dollars that go to education K through 12. Governor Mills is willing to risk all of that. That's like what covers school lunches. Like, okay, like this is important funds in Maine, a very small state will not survive without federal funds. They just can't. Yet even still, knowing this, you have Governor Mills, who I think thought she had this mic drop moment, the interaction went viral, where she, you know, looks at President Trump all defiantly and she says, well, I'll see you in court. To which he's like, yeah, okay, sure you will. California, on the other hand, they receive, I think, $8 billion in federal funds. So again, that's a huge chunk of money that you have a guy who's, who's willing to risk that to continue to allow for this to happen so much.
- [45:25]
Jordan Peterson
So actually for what to happen? That's, that's to have boys playing in girls sports in K through 12 competitions and.
- [45:32]
Riley Gaines
That's right.
- [45:33]
Jordan Peterson
Intramurals.
- [45:34]
Riley Gaines
That's right.
- [45:34]
Jordan Peterson
Okay.
- [45:35]
Riley Gaines
But it doesn't just stop there. I think it's different statutes, different laws that are being violated. But nonetheless, Donald Trump has issued executive orders barring men from entering into women's prisons. Of course, bear in mind these are oftentimes violent sexual offenders. These, these male in my inmates who are Realizing that the quickest way to get into a woman's prison, which sounds awesome to a rapist, by the way, is to say I am a woman. That, that's the only qualification in states like California.
- [46:05]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, I think that's, that's actually one of the, that, that's one of the most egregious examples of progressive insanity that has made itself manifest in the last 10 years. You remember Nicola Sturgeon, she used to be Prime Minister of Scotland. Oh yes, she's quite the piece of work. So her presumption was any man who says he's a woman is a woman. And as a psychopathologist, I look at that and I think any man, hey, Nicola, what do you know about psychopathological men? Like, what do you know about the psychology of serial killers and rapists? Are those the sort of men that inhabit your worst nightmares? Or are they victims in your progressive thinking? And these are the sort of victims that you don't want to find under your bed at night, that's for sure. So you get this weird extension of compassion as well as malicious envy and a fair bit of underground malevolence that expends itself in the presumption that all men, bar none, who say they're women, are women. Well, that did in Nicola Sturgeon, because of course what happened in Scotland was that the serial rapists and killers, exactly as you pointed out, thought. Well, you just think about how foolish you have to be to assume that someone who's a serial rapist is going to have moral qualms about claiming that he's a woman when really he's not. Right, Rape is fine, but he's going to all of a sudden be 100% honest when he defines his gender identity. None of that's convenient. And that's why. Because these absolutely malevolent men are victims. Is that the hypothesis or. I, I just, I, I truly struggle to understand it. It's so viciously naive that it's a miracle of, of inverted, inverted thinking. Anyways, it did in Nicola, thank God, because she so deserved it.
- [48:11]
Riley Gaines
That's the way you see it. And that's the way 90 plus percent of Americans see it. They say it's a 70, 30, 80, 20 issue. I believe it's more drastic than that, actually. And 100% of people with any a shred of honesty or a moral compass or any amount of common sense see it that way too. And again, I think a large part in why we saw the shift that we did in November, even amongst we talked about the younger demographic Even amongst younger people, I don't think. Well to be. Let me clarify. I do believe that people turned out to the polls to embrace Donald Trump and to embrace his America first agenda and to embrace, you know, his cabinet picks. But Jordan, more so, I believe that people turned out to the polls to reject absurdity. And that is absolutely and entirely, I mean thoroughly, what the Democratic Party has become from top to bottom again, every single there's no such thing as a moderate Democrat anymore, at least not an elected Democrat. Look at the way that mainstream media is framed. There's no such thing as moderation. Preborn's network of clinics are on the front lines nationwide on standby for women deciding between the life of their babies. Preborn seeks these women out to help them choose life not just for their babies, but for themselves. By introducing mothers to the life growing inside of them through ultrasound, her baby's chance at life doubles. $28 a month could just be the difference between life and death of so many lives. To donate securely, go to preborn.com dailywire that's preborn.com dailywire a single heartbeat can echo across generations.
- [49:43]
Jordan Peterson
Well, there's no moderation. If the insistence is that a man can become a woman. I mean, anybody who swallows that will swallow anything. That is literally, that is literally the biggest lie that you can foist upon people. You know, even creatures without a nervous system can tell the difference between the sexes. I think it's the most fundamental perceptual category is sex differentiation. So if you violate that, there's nothing you can violate that's more fundamental than the distinction between male and female. And so to the degree that to be a Democrat, you have to support the trans phenomena, gender affirming surgery, and the right of psychopathic narcissistic men to compete against deserving women in their own sports competitions, then you've sold your soul 100% to the devil and there's no way back. And I don't think this is a partisan issue exactly because it isn't a classic left right split. I don't think that classic left right split even exists anymore. I think it's nihilistic, deluded, nihilistic Machiavellian hedonists versus everyone else. And unfortunately, there's a fair number of the former. And so, you know, when, when the election shifted, I had thought for a while about inviting some prominent Democrats onto my podcast and I had reached out to a number of the people that I know in the podcast world to see if they would platform some Democrats given the presumption that having a sane opposition to the Trump Republicans might be good for everyone, given that it's useful in a, when the kind of political system that we inhabit to have a credible opposition. And I worked with one of my compatriots who has superb connections within the Democrat Party and Democratic Party and who knows everyone, I would say of note, and is well trusted. And his conclusion was that he couldn't think of anyone at the federal level who was capable of having an unscripted two and a half hour conversation that wouldn't be a catastrophe. All of them have sold their tongue to their junior staffers and, you know, test everything they say for its reception. Are political actors right to the core. And I don't think there's anyone in, in the Democratic Party who is capable and competent. Not no one. Maybe that's a bit of an overstatement, but you can see in their dearth of leadership, you can certainly see that.
- [52:33]
Riley Gaines
It's funny you say that because I, I can recall the first time I testified before Congress again, being what, maybe 22, 23 at the time. Naturally, you're so nervous, right? Like I, I was a nervous wreck sitting in front of these people who are incredibly intimidating, whether, regardless of, of their political affiliation, understanding. These are our, our, our lawmakers. These are the people who, who, you know, hold the purse strings, even, if you will. So took me all of five minutes to realize what a silly perception that was to have going into this. I realized if you get them off of their little piece of paper that their staffers prepared for them, they really know nothing. Like, they're the least intimidating group of people that I've, I've sat in front of. Truthfully, I mean that because it is also scripted. So I realized there were several, I mean, moments in these, these back and forths that we had that you can just stop them in their tracks. They don't have a response for you so much. So to the point where the Democrats stopped asking me questions entirely and they would just go to only their witnesses. I think they thought they could trip me up in several cases. One was with. I can think of a few. There was one interaction between a Democrat who said something to the effect of, you know, well, Serena Williams could beat a lot of men in tennis. To which my response is, okay, if you're referring to people like Senator Kennedy from Louisiana, of course, Serena Williams can beat him in tennis. But if we're looking at this honestly, Serena Williams lost to the 203rd ranked male player who played 18 holes of golf before drinking and smoking in between sets, and said verbally that he played like a 600th ranked male tennis player. So is that the argument that you're making? I mean, I can think of several of those moments. Again, they're, they're, they're the least intimidating group of people.
- [54:40]
Jordan Peterson
And it didn't take you very long to figure that out, eh?
- [54:43]
Riley Gaines
No, five minutes.
- [54:45]
Jordan Peterson
Well, that's quite impressive. I mean, I've been to Congress a number of times and it is very intimidating. It's not only the, as you said, the, the, the, it's, it's not only the people who are there and whatever residual belief you have in their competence, but the history of the place, the, the architecture, it's. Yeah, and, and the hopes you have that, that it, that it functions credibly, incompetently. You know, I had, that's part of the violation.
- [55:17]
Riley Gaines
I suppose I had a lot more hope then than I think compared to now. And I say that even with a new administration seeing firsthand again, you hear it all the time where people say just how corrupt it is. I think seeing that firsthand again on both sides, I hate to say you lose hope, but any logical person, again with any amount of reason and intuitiveness I think would naturally lose hope. When you, when you see it the way that I imagine even yourself, people like me, I've been in D.C. i mean, I can't even tell you how many times for different events again, testifying before Congress and the Senate. There's an event today at the White House actually that of course I couldn't make it to, but being in all those different settings and seeing the behind the scenes, I think it's, I think you would be silly to not lose hope just a little, you know, you.
- [56:21]
Jordan Peterson
Know, I've, I've met a lot of good people in D.C. i must say, and so there is that side of it. And, and the other thing too is that one of the things we always have to remember is Churchill's dictum, right, that democracy is the worst form of government imaginable, except for all the others. And I know the US is a republic and not a democracy, but the point still holds. And at least what we have in the United States is ordinary incompetence with a bit of corruption thrown in, whereas most of the world is governed by the utterly corrupt to the point where nothing can ever get done and everything's working at counter purposes to one another. And now we should also point out on the positive side that you have gone to all these state legislative points bodies and have had a real impact. And so despite the fact of the corruption, let's say, and the incompetence and the ideological possession that you encountered federally, you know, you haven't been doing political work for very long and yet you've had a massive impact. So let's switch to the state level. And, and, and you talked about Trump's pulling of, of aid, of funding through the education system. Let's talk about the state level and what's happened there. And, and point out that 28 states in what, three years, two years. That's quite the, that's quite the remarkable. Well, that's remarkable. Right. I mean, that shows that the system is responsive and, and maybe that sanity can hold out against insanity when push comes to shove if a few people stand up and make their conscience known. So talk us through the, talk us through the state side and then switch to the campuses and tell us what it's been like to, to speak on campuses because they're generally hotbeds of utter insanity.
- [58:11]
Riley Gaines
Yeah. To put it mildly. And I think, just as you mentioned, largely why I say I appreciate and value state policy, why I feel that that's where my passion is, is because you can see real impact happening, which is pretty special. It's a pretty remarkable thing to be a part of. Your first question you asked prior to, to going kind of down this, this road that we just did was what does that impact look like? Right. How do you, as one person, like how do you measure that impact? I see it all the time where I'm testifying. Again, these legislators have the opportunity to, to ask questions, whatever it is. So often actually, in every legislative body that I've, I've been to, again coming from the Democrats, they say this isn't really happening. It's not really an issue to be concerned about.
- [59:06]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, I know all the things the Democrats disagree with aren't happening. No one's getting their breasts cut off and no one's getting castrated. And there's no such thing as gender affirming butchery.
- [59:17]
Riley Gaines
Well, I find when I'm there, granted, it doesn't always, of course, actually hardly ever does it change their vote necessarily. But I find when I'm there and I'm able to testify to, of course, the unfairness of it. I mean, I don't think we need me there to testify on, on that behalf because kindergartners seem to understand the differences between boys and girls, men and women. But I think more so when you start talking about the locker room in the violation as a, I mean 17, 18, 19, 20 year old girl. Being in this intimate space where it's already not comfortable, right, Like a locker room in general is not a comfortable place. But growing up a swimmer, at least you, you learn to almost be comfortable being vulnerable in that environment. But to have that vulnerability stripped from you without even a blink of an eye, as a 6 foot 4 man, fully intact, undresses himself inches away from where you're simultaneously undressed.
- [60:18]
Jordan Peterson
Well, fully intact and, and ambivalently motivated, let's put it that way. It's like what the hell is that guy doing in the locker room? Whatever story he's covering himself up with is not the real story. You have every reason to be utterly terrified, I would say, of anybody pathological enough just out of sheer rudeness to put themselves in that position. How selfish can you get? I mean, let's, let's play devil's advocate for a moment and imagine some poor unfortunate soul who truly does believe he's a woman. The mere fact that he's making all the other women highly uncomfortable should be enough so that he's willing to forego his own desire in the interest of protecting their. Protecting their interests. Like if it's his interest versus the interest of 20 girls, he has to be narcissistic and self centered to the core to put himself first. And if he's willing to put himself first in that manner, then you have no idea what else he has up his non existent sleeve at the moment. So there's real reason, I think you'd have to be a damn fool to be a woman with a man like that anywhere near you, especially under those vulnerable circumstances, and not be like thoroughly apprehensive and wonder just what the hell is going on.
- [61:50]
Riley Gaines
Here at Capella University you can learn at your own pace with our Flexpath learning format. Take one or two courses at a time and complete as many as you can in a 12 week billing session. With Flexpath, you can finish the bachelor's degree you started in 19 months and under $19,000. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu. fastest 25% of students. Cost varies by pace. Transfer credits and other factors. Fees apply. I believe the same level of apprehension should apply to those who attempt to normalize this or even celebrate it in many cases. Again, maybe they don't get to see or fully be a part of the. The repercussions, the circumstances that they're creating again, that they're advocating for. Oftentimes that they're celebrating, but even still, any attempt to normalize that, I believe that same sort of apprehension should be for those people who create and enforce the policies as well. But again, being in those settings where I'm able to describe this, to give them a little of that background, to allow them to understand fully what they are advocating for, it puts them, you know, it takes them back a place like I imagine, especially if they have children, especially if they have daughters, that this is something they're considering with their own daughter. Would they be okay as a democratic lawmaker, mother or father for that matter, with their young daughter being fully undressed next to a naked man? And if their answer is yes to that, I think there's a separate conversation that needs to be had involving cps, because again, it doesn't get more disgusting or sick or morally indefensible than that position right there. But nonetheless, you can see the thought process at a state level. I think the people at the federal level, again, I think they believe they're untouchable. They're oftentimes not even listening to what the person on the other side of the witness stand is saying. They're on their phones, they're doing other things. But at the state level, it's a different environment entirely. And so to. To be able to see that and witness it and to see the impact, it's pretty powerful. And it negates the whole argument if it's not happening, because it certainly is. And oftentimes I can give them, of course, statistics or instances of this happening in their own state or in their own district, if you will.
- [64:21]
Jordan Peterson
Okay, two things there. The first is it's. It's unfortunate that so much public attention is directed towards DC and not the state or the municipal levels of government where most of the power should be and all of the real action takes place. I mean, the fact that so much attention is devoted to D.C. or even higher up the chain, so to speak, to organizations like the WEF is an indication of the pathological centralization of power in our society. Right. We'd hope for those local organizations to be the movers and shakers, as they should be, because they're closer to the problem. And so it's really good that you've actually seen that happen. So walk us through a typical piece of state legislation. What's being required or forbidden now in these 28 states, typically.
- [65:20]
Riley Gaines
So the problem, and, and truthfully, why I mentioned the federal portion of this when we began to talk about this, this topic, there's a level of enforcement. You can see at the federal level, at the state level, it's oftentimes there's not a good enforcement mechanism, if you will. Oftentimes they resort to things like a physical. Right. A standard physical that any athlete has to have prior to being able to compete on a high school team, whatever it is. Some states resort to things like birth certificate, which I believe to be a very lousy way of determining sex, because your birth certificate can be changed in 44 states. And of course across the world, we saw that with the Olympics, even just this past year and prior to this past Summer Olympics. So not a great enforcement mechanism. At the state level there are threats, of course. They say, you know, there will be a punishment if you, if you allow for this. But oftentimes they don't really even clarify what that punishment will be. That's why you have so many states who are, who, I mean, blatantly ignore even state law. Even in West Virginia right now. Right. West Virginia, which had 100% of their counties turnout in support for Donald Trump. They've got a little boy throwing shot put track and field there. Granted, I believe this is a bit different because it's being held up in a legal system somewhere. He's allowed to compete. But all that to say the enforcement mechanism is not as easy to maneuver at the state level as opposed to the federal level, which is why so many states are thrilled to see the federal government get involved.
- [67:14]
Jordan Peterson
Right, right. So you bring up the enforcement issue. What is the legislation done practically to women's sports then? I mean, you made a positive case for the fact that these laws have been changed, but then a critical case with regards to enforcement. It's not that surprising because it isn't as if systems have been set up according to historical norms to ensure that boys only compete against boys and girls only compete against girls. That was a social norm. We didn't need enforcement mechanisms. And it isn't even obvious what they would look like once the norm has been disrupted. So, you know, I, I have some sympathy for the states.
- [67:52]
Riley Gaines
I think the practical part here is it gives cover to those, you know, specific state athletic interscholastic governing bodies who say, oh, sorry, we're just following federal law or state law because ultimately they want they know the right thing. Right. Just like the Democrats do. They know what the right thing is. Now they're able to do it. They're able to say, oh well, look, we're just following state law, which I believe they have wanted to do from the beginning anyways. But because you have different, whether it's different activists, again in certain positions of authority who are pulling the strings, whether it's, it's being controlled by different, I mean, groups, lobbying groups, any sort of, you know, pro trans agenda activist groups who, who control some funds that go to, whether it's lawmakers, whatever it is. Now none of that has any effect anymore. And they're able to say we're just following the law, which they've wanted to do from the beginning. So I think that's the practical side is everyone knew what the right thing was initially at the beginning of this, since its inception, but now they can say they're doing it, have no accountability, no responsibility, and just say, well, we're just following what they're doing. And that's what this issue has become, Jordan, is a big finger pointing competition. But we're just following this person. And this person will say, well, I'm just following the IOC. The IOCs will says, well, I'm just following, you know, what, what each specific sport governing body wants to do. It's a big finger pointing competition. And so if they can point a finger and say, well, they said to do it this way, that's exactly what's going to happen.
- [69:30]
Jordan Peterson
So why do you think? Let, let's, let's, let's. Let me ask you a personal question, then we'll turn to the campus issue. You just made a very strong case that people want to defer the responsibility or the authority to someone else. And that's like, that's a herd animal or a fish school mentality, right? To hide in the, to hide against the crowd. And so why do you think, why do you think you decided that you were going to speak out? And what have you learned from your interactions with other people who have done, who've taken similar steps to you? Let me give a little bit of background here. You know, like, I had studied totalitarianism and herd behavior for a very long time before things blew up around me in 2016. But I gotta tell you, even with all that preparation, which was like three decades of study, the staggeringly high disproportion of people who will remain silent and hide in the herd compared to the tiny percentage of people who will follow the dictates of their conscience has really come as a shock to me. So I'm curious about, I know that's a leading question now, but I'm curious about your experience and why you think it was necessary for you or possible for you to stick your neck out when you could have Remained silent like, well, like most of the girls did, whose rights were being like brutally trampled upon.
- [71:08]
Riley Gaines
I, I think of a couple things and maybe even a couple defining moments. I think back to that national championships and the events that ensued. And of course we raised me and this man and we tied and, and ultimately I was denied the trophy as they said it was necessary when, when, you know, photos were being taken, that he was holding the trophy. Of course I recognize all this to be wrong in that moment, prior to that moment. But I think it took that happening to me, it took that negative and direct and personal being impacted in that way to ultimately take that initial leap of faith, which I'm ashamed to say it granted, I think it does give you a sense of credibility and it gives you a story and people are more willing to listen if it's something that has, has impacted you. But I'm ashamed to say it took me, it took that for me. Had that not happened. Truthfully, I am a very self aware person, again, all the while knowing it was wrong. Had that interaction not happened, I imagine I, like everyone else, would have just swept it under the rug and figured it was someone else's problem. But it did happen to me and again I say I'm ashamed to say it. And really what it was, those feelings that I had, the feelings of just conviction and guilt, like I felt so guilty in that moment, having even gotten in the pool that day, having jumped off the block and swam. I felt just as bad as the people who created and enforced the policies because I was participating in the farce just as much as they were at that point. And it just reached this point where it was an overwhelming sense of guilt. So I think that was ultimately what led me to be there. But I think since then, and partially on the front end, of course, what has given me the stability and I think the security to say what I've been saying is of course my faith. It's just central to my life. It's central to how I operate, to how I approach conversations, to how I conduct myself on a, on a daily basis, whether it's this conversation or, or any conversation. I always try to remember, number one, to live a Christ like life. And so I think knowing which, it took a while again, I think you have to, you almost have to be tested in that way to have a testimony, if you will. I think having the influx of negative comments or whatever it was took a little bit of time. Not a long time, actually, I would say probably a few weeks of reading these pretty harsh Critiques of myself, things I knew not to be true. But I realized pretty early on I'm not fighting for anything of this world. I'm fighting for the promise and the hope of eternal life. Once I was able to frame it in my mind that way, it's made it easy to withstand all of the negativity, all of the pushback, all of the hatred that comes with it. And to that I will say the support in comparison to the hatred is tenfold, of course, so keeping that perspective as well. And I think my family. I've got two fantastic parents who raised me to be a leader. My dad has a pretty remarkable story of his own college athletic story. He was also an SEC athlete. He played football. There was one game where there was a long pass thrown to my dad. A player from Ole Miss tackled. My dad, ultimately ended up severing his spinal cord and passing away from that hit. And I saw the other player, of course his name was Chucky Mullins, the player for Ole Miss. But I saw, obviously this happened before I was born, but even since, the impact that that has had on my. My dad and my family and just the devotion that I've seen from my dad following this. He lived for several months prior to passing away, ultimately succumbing to a blood clot, I believe. Paralyzed, of course, in the meantime, really horrific. But in those. Those months that Chucky was alive, my dad and him became best friends again. My dad overwhelmed with the guilt that you feel, knowing it's a. A situation that you were doing everything you were supposed to be doing. He was doing everything that he believed he was supposed to be doing. Granted, this was before a lot of the targeting calls and protocols and precautions they take now. So that guilt my dad still carries with him. But even still, how my dad leads his life, visiting his grave three times every year, one of those days being Christmas Day. So I've never had my dad home on Christmas because he believes no one should be alone on Christmas morning. I think all of that, that to say the. The family that I have, the home life that I have, how my parents taught me to call out an injustice when I see it, how they taught me to be a leader. And I think a lot of that's to a credit to playing sports. I'm the biggest advocate for every single person playing sports at the highest level that you can, that you can possibly reach. Being team captain of my team taught me how to set goals and work to achieve those goals. It taught me the greater good of, of, you know, doing something for larger than just yourself. And that's very much how I see this, this fight, if you will, that we're a part of now. It's, it's not a matter of, of me, of any sort of. Of, of my personal ambition. I, I take that out of the equation entirely when I do what I do, regardless of what it is. I, I really do feel like these past few years, I've approached this pretty selfishly. Wherever I need to be, whatever I need to do, even if it's in the belly of the beasts, I'm there because I know it's the right thing. So I think once you can frame it that way, makes it easy, really.
- [77:27]
Jordan Peterson
Right, right, right, right. Okay. Okay. So look, let's close this out by talking about what you think is going to happen with you in the future. And I'm kind of curious about how far out in the future you're looking practically. I know you have a baby coming, and so that's going to bring many changes into your life, but I, I'm, I, I don't look out more than about a year because I just can't see things being predictable past that point. I'm curious about your time frame and what you're, what you're planning, how you're going to juggle and balance that with the baby and what you're hoping to accomplish as you move forward. And then I think when we move to the daily wire side, I think we'll turn our attention to your experience on college campuses and with high schools. I'd like to hear more about that. So everybody watching and listening, you could join us for this to continue after we close out on the daily wire side. So, yeah, so, Riley, what's, what's up? What's. What's next for you? Where do you see this going? You've had a lot of success, especially at the state level. There's a lot more work to do. What are your plans?
- [78:39]
Riley Gaines
Certainly a lot more work to do. You say a year? I really approach this on a, on a daily basis, and, and I, I really mean that. So I think being a mom, of course, is, is the next big thing. But I will say again, knowing that it's a little girl, it only reinforces the necessity and the urgency, really, the urgency to fight this fight. So there, there is no signs of, of me slowing down or stopping this. Sorry to all the liberals out there who desperately hope that's the case. It's absolutely not it. Again, it really only reinforces the need and just how vital this issue is so full steam ahead. I, I think looking at this from the state policy level, what the next thing is, As I said, 28 states have done this. As you could probably imagine, all of the states where this was a guarantee. Your states like Tennessee, Texas, Florida, they have already done this at this point. So now it's targeting other states that are a little more purple, where this is not a guarantee, where you have to get some Democrats to cross the line, states like Minnesota, states like Pennsylvania. So working in those legislative bodies to, to get this over the line hopefully gives some set the precedent for other purple states and of course would love to see some blue states follow through, although I don't know how, how realistic that is for the time being. One other piece of legislation at the state level that I feel very passionately about, that we've been working on across the board is similarly to President Trump's executive order that he signed on day one, declaring there are only two sexes, male and female. And then further going on, I believe the important part for the state level is defining words like man, woman, girl, boy, mother, father, male, female, defining sex itself. Again, words we never knew we would have to define, but have ultimately become entirely conflated. They use these words, sex and gender identity interchangeably, although they mean different things entirely. So there are now, as it stands, 16 states that have passed what we have dubbed as the Women's Bill of Rights. Some states call it something different, but most states call it the Women's Bill of Rights, Texas being the most recent. Governor Abbott just signed that this past week. So lots of work to do there. Lots. I mean, states like Florida have not done this yet. So you can imagine there would be some, some easy wins, although I don't know if anything is necessarily easy. No win is easy anymore. So that's probably the next big push, I would say, of, of this battle because you have things like the protection or fairness in women's sports bill. Well, what longevity does that have if we can't define the word woman in state? Statue. And that's in total contrast to what you see in states like Wisconsin, where Governor Evers attempted to change the word woman in a 1,000 page budget bill. Of course, very sneaky. To insim or actually it was the word mother to inseminated persons like that is just the most ridiculous, dehumanizing thing I've ever heard in my entire life. We've seen words like cervix, haver or uterus, owner or menstruator or bleeder or chest feeder or bird, birthing person or the list goes on?
- [82:14]
Jordan Peterson
Birthing person.
- [82:14]
Riley Gaines
Yeah, but people, common sense people know what these words mean, so I believe it's time our laws do too.
- [82:23]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, it means that the speaker and writer hates women. That's what it means.
- [82:29]
Riley Gaines
Reality more so.
- [82:30]
Jordan Peterson
Well, yes, yes.
- [82:31]
Riley Gaines
Objective truth.
- [82:33]
Jordan Peterson
God, women and reality. Maybe in that order. Hard to say. All right, well, what does that mean practically? Like how you're, you're. You're going to give birth in two months. You, you've got a busy schedule ahead of you. What'll that mean for you practically? Do you think in terms of traveling over the next year? Are you going to keep. Maintain the same pace and we.
- [82:58]
Riley Gaines
That's the plan. Actually. I've already.
- [83:00]
Jordan Peterson
Well, babies are pretty portable, you know.
- [83:03]
Riley Gaines
That's what I think too. They make these awesome baby carriers. And of course strollers are so compactable now. So I'm already. She's due in September, so already have things on the book end of October, so four or five weeks and I'm good to go. I'm ready. I know a lot of moms out there listening to this like she has no idea what she's in for. But truthfully, the way that my mindset is, is I think this will be just the greatest blessing. Of course. And I don't think, granted having the help of my husband, I have all my family lives close by. I just don't think this will be much of a hindrance on what I personally. But more broadly, what we as a movement are able to do surrounding this issue and beyond. So full steam ahead. That's how I view it.
- [84:01]
Jordan Peterson
Great, great. Well, best of luck. I hope that things go very well. Like, I'm sure you'll be in touch with Michaela or maybe directly with me in the next two month period. I, I hope that, as I said, best wishes for that. I think that your plans can be realized. It takes some managerial juggling to continue Moving ahead at 150 miles an hour when you have a baby. But if you have people around who help and you can distribute the responsibility so you take care of yourself, then, well, you can have a baby and have a life, as it turns out, and in fact a richer life. So congratulations on that front. So for everybody watching and listening, we're going to turn to the daily wire side now. I'm going to talk to Riley about her experiences on university campuses and high schools and what she sees happening there. And so join us for that. Riley, any last words for people watching and listening?
- [85:02]
Riley Gaines
No, Grateful for you. I will Say, I have a podcast, podcast with Outkick. It's called Gains for Girls. So doing great stuff over there as well.
- [85:12]
Jordan Peterson
Right, right. How's the podcast going?
- [85:14]
Riley Gaines
It's fantastic. Talking to, I mean, some just incredible minds. This week we had on Senator Hawley, Senator Daines from Montana, talking to people who have been impacted, people who. Who maybe don't have as much as a name out there, but real people. Again, that's what I value. That's what I appreciate. That's what most everyday Americans appreciate is hearing from real people. So it's. It's going great. Doing awesome stuff. So.
- [85:44]
Jordan Peterson
All right, well, great talking to you, Raleigh, and congratulations on all your success on the familial side, on the marital side and on the political side. The tides have turned, and that's a huge. That's a huge victory. And it's one. It's. It's making waves that will have an effect throughout the Western and the broader world. And so thank God for that because maybe we're a little less insane than we were five years ago, and that's in some, not so small part due to you.
- [86:21]
Riley Gaines
Well, thank you. And you. I appreciate it.
- [86:23]
Jordan Peterson
Y. Y. All right, so everybody, you can join us on the Daily Wire side. I'm going to continue to talk to Riley about her experiences battling it out on the university campuses at high schools. Join us, and thanks very much for your time and attention.