Podcast Summary: The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast – Episode 562: What Do We Actually Know About Autism? | Sir Simon Baron-Cohen

Introduction

In Episode 562 of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson engages in an in-depth discussion with Sir Simon Baron-Cohen, a renowned clinical psychologist and director of the Autism Research Centre at Cambridge University. Baron-Cohen is celebrated for his groundbreaking work on autism, empathy, systemizing, and the concept of the "extreme male brain." Their conversation delves into the complexities of autism, exploring its multidimensional nature, the interplay between empathy and systemizing, sex differences, and the broader implications for society.

1. Understanding Autism: A Multidimensional Disorder

Jordan Peterson begins the discussion by addressing the complexity of autism, emphasizing that it is not a singular condition but rather a spectrum with multiple dimensions.

Peterson [00:30]: "The things we might want to do is lay out the cardinal features of autism. How would you characterize autism?"

Simon Baron-Cohen concurs, highlighting the various factors that constitute autism and cautioning against a simplistic deficit model.

Baron-Cohen [00:37]: "Autism isn't just a single thing. There are multiple dimensions to autism, multiple factors."

They explore how focusing solely on the challenges faced by autistic individuals can obscure the core features and unique strengths associated with autism, such as enhanced pattern recognition and system understanding.

2. Theory of Mind and Empathy: Cognitive vs. Affective Empathy

The conversation transitions to the concept of Theory of Mind (ToM), which pertains to the ability to understand another person's beliefs, desires, and intentions.

Peterson [06:28]: "I've been very influenced by J.J. Gibson and Jeffrey Gray... our perceptions are guides to navigation."

Baron-Cohen introduces Daniel Dennett's "Intentional Stance," explaining how humans inherently attribute mental states to others.

Baron-Cohen [06:55]: "Daniel Dennett... the intentional stance is that when we look at people... we try to imagine what's going through their mind."

They differentiate between cognitive empathy (understanding others' mental states) and affective empathy (sharing others' emotions), noting that autistic individuals may exhibit strengths in the former while facing challenges in the latter.

Baron-Cohen [15:34]: "I call that cognitive empathy... the affective part should be... kicking in very, very quickly..."

3. Systemizing vs. Empathizing: A Dual Framework

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the dual dimensions of systemizing and empathizing. Baron-Cohen elaborates on his theory that these are distinct cognitive styles influencing how individuals interact with the world.

Baron-Cohen [43:24]: "I've written a book called The Pattern Seekers... How Autism Drives Human Invention."

He posits that systemizers excel in understanding and manipulating systems governed by rules, which is a strength often found in autistic individuals. Conversely, empathizers focus more on social interactions and emotional connections.

Baron-Cohen [50:01]: "Autistic people... are looking to understand this particular system... they're not trying to think of what are all the different possible systems I could build."

Peterson connects this framework to human tool use and technological advancement, suggesting that systemizing is fundamental to invention and engineering.

4. Sex/Gender Differences in Empathy and Systemizing

The conversation delves into the observed sex differences in empathy and systemizing abilities. Baron-Cohen references large-scale studies indicating that, on average, females score higher in empathy measures, while males tend to score higher in systemizing.

Baron-Cohen [64:31]: "Women on average score higher on the EQ... Men on average score higher on the SQ."

Peterson discusses how these differences are maximized in gender-neutral societies, implying a genetic component influenced by prenatal hormones like testosterone.

Peterson [68:58]: "Differences in agreeableness and neuroticism are maximized in the Scandinavian countries... maximize the genetic variation."

They also explore how these differences impact career choices and social interactions, stressing the importance of recognizing individual cognitive styles over gender stereotypes.

5. Implications for Education and the Workplace

Baron-Cohen advocates for educational and professional environments that recognize and harness the strengths of systemizers, such as autistic individuals. He criticizes the traditional deficit-focused approach and emphasizes the potential for autistic strengths in areas like engineering, mathematics, and technology.

Baron-Cohen [61:34]: "We should focus on the strengths of autistic people... let the child follow what they're interested in."

Peterson adds that fostering an environment that appreciates both empathizing and systemizing can lead to more harmonious and productive societal interactions.

6. Empathy, Cruelty, and Malevolence

The discussion culminates in exploring the relationship between empathy deficits and malevolent behaviors. Baron-Cohen distinguishes between lack of empathy and active cruelty, suggesting that the latter involves complex motivations beyond mere empathy deficits.

Baron-Cohen [86:26]: "Psychopaths have reduced affective empathy... but they possess cognitive empathy."

Peterson reflects on historical atrocities, linking them to shifts in societal empathy and the dehumanization of certain groups.

Peterson [93:50]: "These social changes and political changes can erode empathy... treat refugees as if they are less than."

They conclude by underscoring the necessity of balancing systemizing and empathizing to prevent the erosion of empathy, which can lead to societal malaises like discrimination and cruelty.

Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of autism through the lens of neurodiversity, emphasizing the importance of recognizing both the challenges and strengths associated with different cognitive profiles. By dissecting the interplay between empathy and systemizing, and examining sex differences, Peterson and Baron-Cohen shed light on how these factors influence education, the workplace, and broader societal dynamics. Their conversation advocates for a more nuanced understanding of autism, moving beyond deficit models to appreciate the unique contributions of autistic individuals in shaping human innovation and social structures.

Notable Quotes

• Baron-Cohen [00:37]: "Autism isn't just a single thing. There are multiple dimensions to autism, multiple factors."
• Baron-Cohen [15:34]: "I call that cognitive empathy... the affective part should be... kicking in very, very quickly."
• Baron-Cohen [43:24]: "I've written a book called The Pattern Seekers... How Autism Drives Human Invention."
• Baron-Cohen [64:31]: "Women on average score higher on the EQ... Men on average score higher on the SQ."
• Baron-Cohen [86:26]: "Psychopaths have reduced affective empathy... but they possess cognitive empathy."
• Peterson [93:50]: "These social changes and political changes can erode empathy... treat refugees as if they are less than."

Note: All timestamps correspond to the positions within the provided transcript.