← The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
Loading summary
Transcript88 lines
- [00:00]
Advertiser
Did you know that over 85% of grass fed beef sold in US grocery stores is imported? That's why I buy all my meat from goodranchers.com instead. Good Ranchers products are 100% born, raised and harvested right here in the USA from local family farms. Plus there's no antibiotics ever, no added hormones and no seed oils. Just one simple ingredient. That's meat. Best of all, Good ranchers deliver straight to your door for added convenience. So lock in a secure supply of American meat today. Subscribe now@goodranchers.com and get free meat for life and $40 off with code Daily Wire. That's $40 off in free meat for life with code Daily wire Good Ranchers American meat delivered Is your home's title still in your name? With one forged document, scammers can steal your home title and equity. But now you can protect yourself. Home title locks at million dollar triple lock protection provides 24,7 title monitoring urgent alerts to changes. And if fraud happens, they'll spend up to a million dollars to fix it and restore your title. Use promo code daily wire@hometitle lock.com for a free title history report plus a free 14 day trial of free their million dollar triple lock protection. Head over to hometitlelock.com now with promo code daily wire to ensure your title is still in your name. You know what I love about our partnership with Helix Sleep? They understand that better sleep means better days. I've been sleeping on mine for months now and the difference is incredible. No more tossing and turning, just pure restorative sleep. Take advantage of their incredible labor day early access sale. Right now you can get 20% off site wide at Helix. Just visit helixsleep.com daily wireless. That's helixsleep.com dailywire for 20% off sitewide, make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you. Start sleeping better tonight.
- [01:50]
Jordan Peterson
So Megan, how long have you been married?
- [01:54]
Megan Kelly
17 years.
- [01:55]
Jordan Peterson
17 years. And you said you had your children in your later 30s?
- [02:01]
Megan Kelly
38, 40 and 42.
- [02:04]
Jordan Peterson
Right. And that and that. How did that work for you? I mean you have three children so obviously worked pretty well. But that is you're pushing the envelope at my that point. My sister had her child children at later in at about that time.
- [02:19]
Megan Kelly
No, you're definitely pushing the envelope. Yeah, you get the biggest AMA on your chart and then you make the mistake of asking what that means. And it means advanced maternal age.
- [02:28]
Jordan Peterson
Right.
- [02:29]
Megan Kelly
You're still in your 30s. You're not thinking of yourself. As advanced age, anything. But, yeah, I was. And, you know, as I said to you earlier, it. I met my husband when I was 35. We got engaged. I turned 36 a couple months later. We got engaged a year after that. So I was 37. And we got married when I was 37. So, you know, it was a fast turnaround. Once I met my husband, I had a shorter first marriage that ended in divorce. We ended our relationship amicably and thankfully with no children, because that's a whole sticky wicket, right, when you end a marriage and there are children involved. So, anyway, then Doug and I met. We got married pretty quickly, and we tried to have a baby very quickly because we saw that clock ticking and we both really wanted to have children with each other. To be honest, I wasn't feeling that urge prior to Doug in my first marriage. I kind of knew I didn't want to. I just. I think I might have had a sense like this wasn't gonna work out. With all due respect to my first husband, who is a great guy and now is happily married to another woman with kids of his own, in any event. So my husband and I met. We got married pretty quickly and pretty early on in that first year of trying, I went to the OB GYN to see whether I was okay. You know, just before we went down this exasperating path that everybody goes down in their mid-30s are women who wait. And the eggs, as it turned out, were very youthful and fine. My eggs were great. So I wasn't suffering from what you can suffer from at that age, for sure. 37 of, like, old eggs that are really not that fertile. That's a very real risk you're taking. To me, it wasn't even, like, on my mind because I wasn't really focused on children. But I was glad to hear that the eggs were in great shape. But I. Not to get too detailed, but I have what's called a T shaped uterus. It's basically just a smaller uterus. And so the doctor said that'll make it a little tougher for you, really, at any age it would have. And so I did use IVF for all three of my pregnancies, and it worked like a charm. And I had three beautiful babies and it worked out perfectly. So, look, I'm lucky. And I realize that if children are important to you, and hopefully they are, I mean, honestly, like, I too, am alarmed about the birth rate. We're not gonna have a society if we don't start repopulating. But anyway, if they're important to you. You definitely should know you're taking a risk if you wait. And I think people need to be actively searching for partners, and we need to do better about helping connect them. It's one of my missions in life to, in my personal role as a human on this earth, be active about introducing men and women to each other who are single. Like, I make it my mission. My husband hates it. But I just think it's part of our societal responsibility is to connect especially good people with other good people and in my mind, like good Christians with other good Christians and hopefully, you know, let them populate. That's what happens next is up to them. But we can't leave it all to tinder. You know, at some point, actual loving, caring human beings need to help forge relationships the way we used to. So in any event, we had the kids and I left Fox so that I could spend more time with my children who I was not seeing enough of. And that was a career problem of mine and a personal regret. But I rectified it and things have been great ever since then.
- [05:41]
Jordan Peterson
So what, as you pointed out on the YouTube side, you've had a unique and rare career, an archetypally desirable career, you might say. And as you also pointed out, that is a situation that typifies a very small percentage of people. And yet you speak of your children with immense fondness, let's say. And so tell me how you would explain to a younger woman how your priorities changed in the aftermath of having a baby and what that experience was like. Because it's the experiential aspect of it that I'm curious about, you know, because my sense is that we have a category that's something like generic baby, but your own baby is not generic. Right. That's an individual right from the onset. And that's not well explained, especially to young women. So I'd like to hear your experience in that regard.
- [06:55]
Megan Kelly
I mean, it's cliche, but it is a before and after moment in your. It is the before and after moment in your life. And it's not just when you give birth. It's when you find out you're pregnant and you have a human life growing inside of you. That's when you become a mother. I don't care if you're pro life or not. There's no disputing that's at least a potential life in you. Even the pro choicers have to admit that. And that's when you become a mother. That's when you start nurturing Another human with your body and your energy and your, and your chemistry and your aura. All of it, you know, your love, your faith, all of it starts nurturing that little being from that moment forward. And for me it was like, okay, so I had the babies, I gave birth to the babies. And then you have this extraordinary moment where ideally you breastfeed your child. And that's too completely a Mother Earth moment where you are like back in connection with one of your core reasons for being like that, nurturing, that ability to nurture, grow and take care of another human being to the point of independence. Like this is one of the first steps and here he is, or here she is, completely dependent on you, completely in need of you, and only you can solve it. It's a beautiful feeling where you feel incredibly needed, important, and bonded to this incredibly beautiful creature who knows nothing other than love for you. That's it. They love the dads, they put them on the dad's chest and the dad loves holding the babies. But let's be honest, that baby only has eyes for his or her mother. And there's just no fulfillment like that. There's just nothing.
- [08:38]
Jordan Peterson
That's the issue. You know, I think that's the crucial issue because, and this is a pathological reflection in part of the immaturity of our society, but also its consumerist element. People look for meaning, significance, purpose in the pursuit of self centered gratification, happiness, so to speak. But that's not where you find it. Now it has to be that way because first of all, we have this immense dependency period. And second, we're unbelievably social, right? Like you can punish psychopaths by putting them in solitary confinement. That's how social human beings are. You can take the most antisocial people and you can torture them by not letting them around other people. Okay, so we're social to the core. So what does that mean? Well, it has to mean that we find ourselves being in relationship to others. And the relationship that you're describing is one of opportunity and necessity. And that makes sense.
- [09:55]
Megan Kelly
It's not just limited to the infancy year. I'm like, that's what, that's just the first experience upon arrival. But I will say now my children are 15, 14 and 11. And it only gets better and more profound. I mean, for some women, the toddler years are the peak and they get, they're very sad when the kids age out of the toddler years. For me, I was excited about, I couldn't wait until I could have conversations with them. You know, back and forth that were more meaningful. And we're in that stage now, and, you know, you just. Whatever. I went to see my daughter at a talent show, and these girls were out there having the time of their lives. Many of them were just being silly, happily and intentionally making fools of themselves, like in big costumes that bump into the other girls, and then they fall down into fun music. And I cried like a small school girl myself because it was this feeling of camaraderie and they were rooting for one another. And you see your child get up there, whatever she's doing, and just give it her all. Just stand in front of a microphone and try and ask the world to give her a shot, right? To give her a chance to see what she can do. It's just so bold and optimistic. And so when you have children, you're around that bold optimism all the time. Not whatever. Your kids have vulnerable moments, too. It's not all uniformly positive and wonderful, but the vast majority is. And so you're just immersed in such a happier, more promising world. My whole outlook on life got more positive as a result of my children. It brings into your life such positivity and promise and possibility and socialization, for sure, because you're going to be not just with your kids, but with your kids, friends, parents, and interacting at school in the same way a dog gets you out into the world times X by a child and then more and more children, and you'll have even more and more of it. So even though people know me as a career woman, and I am, and I love my career, as we talked about on the. On the other part of the interview, I love my career. It completely energizes me and excites me. And some days, coming out in front of this microphone is like a therapy for me. It's just the chance to say what's real and correct the record. For people out there who are being misled, there's zero competition. If you said MK, you can go back and live these same 54 years over again. But one thing's not gonna happen, either your children or your career. There's no decision to be made. As much as I adore this career, it doesn't hold a candle to my motherhood, my relationship to my children, my family, the Core 5, as we call ourselves, and the experiences we've had together through these last 15 years. Since I was 16, technically, since I became a mother for the first time as I got pregnant with my eldest. So I want. My thing is, Jordan, I want people to know that. I want young women to know that. They need to know that. But I also want young women who feel that budding love for their career, whatever it is, whether it's journalism or as a doctor or whatever it is that's really grabbing them, that that's okay too. You know, I worry about the conservative movement not making room for those women who've got that thing that I had which is like, I've got to do this. This is amazing. I love it, you know, and I am a better person, and actually I'm a better mother too for the fact that I did become a journalist and I did all the things that I've done over the past, whatever years before I had them. So I, my, my main point in speaking like to young conservative women today is, yes, valuing motherhood and understanding it alone is a valid choice and a really fulfilling one. But if you are somebody like I was, who does feel a fire lit under them to pursue a career, that's okay.
- [13:39]
Jordan Peterson
These are questions that take cultures thousands of years to answer. During Answer the Call, I take questions from people just like you about their problems and opportunities, challenges, or when they simply need advice.
- [13:52]
Advertiser
How do I balance all of this grief, responsibility? How do you repair this kind of damage?
- [13:57]
Jordan Peterson
My daughter Michaela guides the conversations as we hopefully help people navigate their lives. Everyone has their own destiny. Everyone. Well, let's talk about two things or three things maybe. I want to know what, what you see happening on the government policy side. You were at the bitcoin conference in Las Vegas. There are political figures there. Pierre Poliev in Canada has indicated some interest in bitcoin. Nigel Farage in the uk, Trump in the United States. I'm wondering what you think is going to happen at the state level in relationship to bitcoin. They haven't made it illegal, for example, so that's a good thing. And I know that countries that have tried to go to war, so to speak, with bitcoin have seen damaging consequences for their currency, which I think is extremely interesting and telling. Then I'd like to know what you see for the future in relationship to bitcoin, let's say over a five or ten year period. And I'd like to know what your advice would be for young people, practically speaking, in relationship to ensuring their financial future.
- [15:07]
Crypto Expert
All great questions. I think the last 10 months have been extraordinary for bitcoin and the entire crypto ecosystem. An inflection point was in Nashville last July when Donald Trump, the presidential candidate, showed up, gave a speech, embraced bitcoin embraced the community, told everybody that if he was elected, the United States government would never sell their Bitcoin, and in essence, endorsed it as apex property and legitimate property that he respected. The entire crypto industry and the bitcoin community were extremely active. And there are a lot of people that think that they tipped the election in favor of the red sweep. They were definitely very significant actors in November. And so November 5th, there was a red sweep. The House, the Senate, and the White House went Republican. What followed next is an orange cabinet, and orange is the color of bitcoin. I'm wearing an orange tie. What that means is Robert F. Kennedy is a bitcoin believer. Tulsi Gabbard, Intelligence is a bitcoin believer. Atkins at the SEC is a bitcoin believer. Scott Besant at the treasury is a bitcoin believer. Brian Contes at CFTC is a bitcoin believer. The President is a bitcoin believer. He created a cabinet position for David Sacks, as the cryptos are. Who is a bitcoin believer. And so what you saw was the administration flipped from being, I would say, before this administration. They grudgingly accepted Bitcoin and were hostile to everything else. And bitcoin was accepted under protest because they couldn't stop it. And then after November 5, the administration moved aggressively. They established an executive order to develop a digital assets policy. They struck.
- [17:00]
Jordan Peterson
When was that? When was that executive order?
- [17:03]
Crypto Expert
I guess it must have come.
- [17:05]
Jordan Peterson
Well, sometime in the last hundred days, I guess thereabouts.
- [17:08]
Crypto Expert
It came in the first quarter.
- [17:09]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah. Okay.
- [17:10]
Crypto Expert
And they established a strategic bitcoin reserve. Okay. And they. And. And the most important thing that happened is David Sachs went on public record saying the Trump administration recognizes bitcoin as the 1 decentralized crypto network in the world. An asset without an issuer, digital gold, a commodity special. That's very, very important. Unlock a commodity. An asset without an issuer has. Has legal superiority, ethical superiority. A public company can capitalize on a commodity. Under the Sec 40 Act, a public company cannot capitalize on securities. You can't have more than 40% of your balance sheet invested in securities. So a commodity means it's like soybeans or gold or land. And no one actor can manipulate it, and that makes it global property. So that only happened just in the past few months. But what's happened since is you could say the United States has gone from being very regressive to being the most progressive digital assets nation in the world. And the agenda of the United States is to normalize the Use of digital currencies, digital tokens, digital securities and digital commodities on digital exchanges. Trading 2417, that, that'll be Bitcoin based. Do you think that, that bitcoin is the base layer, it is the reserve asset or the capital base of the entire crypto economy?
- [18:49]
Jordan Peterson
Okay, when these other, when other jurisdictions are speaking, I'm thinking about the WEF types in particular, when they're speaking about digital central bank digital currencies, they're generally not thinking about, they're not proposing that that's going to be founded on a bitcoin standard.
- [19:06]
Crypto Expert
Yeah. That is viewed as anathema by the crypto community. But here we get to this basic philosophical observation, which is, do I want all of the money and power in the world to be controlled centrally by one banker or one politician who will then decide what I can buy, what I can do, what I can think?
- [19:29]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, that sounds like a bad idea.
- [19:31]
Crypto Expert
Or do I want all of the money and the power of the world to be held by individuals apart from a corporation or a bank or a government, where they have privacy, where they have sovereignty, where they have dignity, where they have power? You know, my, you know, my author Heinlein, he said, you know, an armed society is a polite society, right?
- [19:56]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah.
- [19:56]
Crypto Expert
And the idea is, you know, 100 people have guns in the room and, you know, you watch your step, you know, and you show civility. Well, the significance of Bitcoin is, for the first time in the history of the human race, we have found a way to tightly bind economic energy to the individual. Cryptographically bind it. If you know a secret in your head, it could be a billion dollars of power. Thinking about fantasy, I know it. I can cast a billion dollar spell. It's profound. If you want to go back 100 million years, the big breakthrough for mammals was when they could bind organic energy to their frame. And we call that fat.
- [20:42]
Genetic Researcher
Right.
- [20:42]
Crypto Expert
If you have fat cells, you can eat a lot and go without food for 30 days, take away the fat. You're a type one diabetic, you know, you last a few days, you're dead. And so this idea that I can bind organic energy is what makes human beings. This idea that I could bind cryptographic, cryptographically bind economic energy that gives sovereignty to the individual. But you know what? Eight billion people could have their own energy, but also 400 million companies. And the traditional central banking system of the CBDC and fiat currency is there's one bank, the US Reserve, that controls everybody, and then there's 100 big banks and if they give you permission, you're allowed to do stuff. And if they take away your permission, you can't. I think the Trump family ran into that when they got debanked. All the crypto people ran into it. There was the Canadian trucker example.
- [21:40]
Jordan Peterson
Oh, God.
- [21:41]
Crypto Expert
You do something we don't like, we.
- [21:42]
Jordan Peterson
Turn off your oxygen with no court intervention whatsoever. Right. No trial, nothing. Yeah.
- [21:50]
Crypto Expert
And if you look at the history of Austrians, they all lamented that the money is broken and that is the source of so many of our economic ills. And if you look at the history of libertarians, they say government intervention, government policy and medicine and commerce and foreign policy and domestic policy and monetary policy and education policy is generally counterproductive. Iatrogenic. It does more harm than good. They both understood the problem. They both had a philosophy. Less government, more civil liberties. More economic liberties, more freedom. We took a shot at that in the United States during the Revolutionary War, and we did it with the Constitution, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. We found out in 2020 that sometimes your rights get suspended because they're inconvenient to someone with more power than you. But the truth is your civil rights have been suspended every 30 years for the last 30,000 years by someone. And that's the story of civilization. Rights being suspended for the. For the normal by the more powerful. The crypto revolution and the bitcoin ethos is Satoshi found a way to give power back to the people by combining cryptography with semiconductors with the Internet.
- [23:14]
Advertiser
Are you tired of spending countless hours and dollars on health and beauty products that promise to make you look and feel younger without seeing real results? That's where fatty 15 comes in. It's actually the first new essential fatty acid discovered in over 90 years, which is pretty incredible. This nutrient, called C15, strengthens our cells and cellular level and has three times more cellular benefits than omega 3 or fish oils. What's really interesting is that up to one in three people might be deficient in C15, which can cause something called cellular fragility syndrome. Basically, when our cells become fragile and age even faster, when our cells don't have enough C15, they break down more quickly. And since our cells age, our bodies do too. The good news is that C15 actually repairs age related damage to cells and protects them from future breakdown. Studies show that 72% of users report seeing benefits within 16 weeks, like better sleep, healthier skin, improved energy, and even smoother functioning joints. It's clinically proven to improve things like liver function and red Blood cell health within just three months. Plus fatty 15 comes in this gorgeous reusable glass jar with convenient refills shipping right to your door. Fatty 15 is on a mission to optimize your C15 levels to help support your long term health and wellness, especially as you age. You can get an additional 15% off their 90 day subscription starter kit by going to fatty15.competerson and using code Peterson at checkout.
- [24:31]
Jordan Peterson
Was it Watson or Crick who proposed an extraterrestrial origin for DNA because he couldn't understand how it could have possibly evolved? I don't remember which of the two co discoverers of DNA it was, but.
- [24:45]
Scientist
Well, there's two interesting papers that came out. One was looking at the half life of DNA complexity as a Moore's Law equivalence. So you know Moore's Law, Right, Right.
- [24:59]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, I saw that paper. Yeah.
- [25:01]
Scientist
And where if you extrapolate in a, in a straight line back to the time at which DNA would have first been evolved, it actually goes back about 12 billion years ago. Between 9 and 12 billion years. And yet Earth has only been around for 4 billion years. So it basically means that we got a jump start because it came from somewhere else. And people say, well how could it come from somewhere else? Well I said just look at your watch. If it's made of metal, every atom in that metal came from an exploded star several billion years ago that coalesced in a cloud and you know, created the planetary ring that eventually became Earth. So you are made of star stuff. You are made of exploded materials. Now what's interesting is the, the about life is that the core components of life are what, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen. Just that those four things are the majority of what you are made of. They were all like the first elements that were available in the universe after the so called big bang. Right. They were the first iteration of the evolution of the elements. It wasn't until multiple stellar explosions later did you get the heavier elements. So life in its most simple form could have happened within a few billion years of the start of the universe as we think of it. So there's plenty of time for things to get around. So that to me is that first question is not is it here? It's can it be here? So yes, the answer is it can be here. Now the question is, is what is here? You know, manifesting itself in a way that it cares about humans in the first place? Right. I mean people, you know, the, the Hollywood trope is they're here to, to take our planet or to take Some natural resource from our planet. I, I, I think that if anything that we see is a manifestation of its capabilities, we are the least of its concerns. If anything, we are, you know, we're a, you know, we're a, we're a zoo. I just came back from Africa, three weeks in Africa, going to the various nature preserves there. So if anything, it's just, they're just watching what we were, what they were billions of years ago, and they have other concerns. That's how I like to think about it, you know, just because I don't worry people. I was on Tucker Carlson once and he says, did it, did it, does it worry me? Why should it worry me? I can't do anything about it in the first place. And if they were going to do anything about us, they would have done it, you know, more recently. But what's interesting though is, and for your viewers, go look up where Most of the UAPs are actually seen. They're seen around our nuclear aircraft carriers and they're seen around our nuclear facilities. Why? Because maybe that's the one thing we can do that might hurt them in some way. And if we are about to break out into the local galactic arm and, you know, and we're a bunch of angry monkeys, maybe they want to basically keep an eye on what the angry monkeys are up to lately and what they can and can't do are those.
- [28:43]
Jordan Peterson
Are those areas more surveyed.
- [28:47]
Scientist
Perfect question. I mean, yes, yes. So maybe it's a observer bias, but because they're more, because they're more observed.
- [28:58]
Douglas Murray
With.
- [29:00]
Scientist
Credible camera systems. Right. And with credible observers, then it's more, you know, then it's more credible. Here's an interesting thing that happened. So about two years ago. We pushed to what we call open the filters on the, you know, so the US Defense system has a number of sensors and as it turned out when somebody looked, it turned out that our sensors are only, because we're collecting so much data, are so narrowly focused. We're looking for signatures of rockets, signatures of planes. There's a lot of other information that's being collected, but it's being dumped in the garbage immediately. So we push to say, you know what, maybe there are capabilities of some of our near level adversaries that we need to pay attention to, like hypersonic rockets from Putin. So let's open the filters and guess what they found. The first thing they found were the Chinese balloons. So the Chinese had found a loophole in our sensor systems. But because we in the UAP community said you need to Open your sensors, maybe something's missing. The first thing they find were those Chinese balloons and they closed the loophole. So, you know, for all, for all wants to say that this lobbying has no, has no effect and actually had a perfectly good outcome that prevented the Chinese from overflying these quiet drones, which were basically just high altitude balloons with sensor systems. But all of that data is still there waiting to be processed. And so I'm part of other initiatives to get some of the data processed in a secure manner to look for signatures of uap. But you don't even have to wait for me. Just look at what this guy, Tim Phillips has been saying publicly. And what even Sean Kirkpatrick, the former head of Arrow, has said is that, yes, he's the one who talked about the Mosul orb. We're seeing these things all over the planet.
- [31:23]
Jordan Peterson
And the orbs, is that a standard sighting?
- [31:26]
Scientist
Yes, it's a, it's relative. Well, I mean, it's relatively frequently reported by the military as well as by individuals, you know, the public. But I have less, I don't have less faith in it, it. But it's so much more easily discredited and these days, especially with AI. But here's an interesting one. So there are several, call them legacy photos of UFOs going back 50 or so, 60 years. And somebody noticed that in these legacy photos there's of course the central ufo, but there are three or four round orbs in each of these pictures. So that leads to an interesting problem. Right here you have things that some people claim were hoaxes, and yet they, even though nobody had even thought of it before, they thought to put these orbs in them. Or you have these multiple pictures, each of which have a central ufo, but then they have these orbs. It's almost like a signature of authenticity. And so it's these kinds of things that get me that I just, as a scientist, I hate a problem that can't be solved. And so my mind is like always, okay, how do I solve it? How do I solve it? How do I get there? But then one of the other attributes that I think of myself as having is that I hate to see opportunity lost. And so the opportunity, unprocessed data, the unrealized potential of what these things might mean, I've done enough for humanity with the technologies that I've developed for patients and whatever. So in my spare time, if you will, this is something that none of my colleagues are interested in, or at least fewer previously than they are today, that it's like well, gee, a grain of silicon changed our civilization. Our civilization is based on silicon and germanium. Imagine if any of this stuff is real. It represents thousands of technology revolutions. If we can just scrape one new idea off the top, what could we do with it?
- [34:06]
Advertiser
Remember when bitcoin was under a dollar? Or you could have just snagged property cheap. After 2008, we've all got those what if moments that haunt us. But here's one thing that you don't have to miss out on. Protecting your future for about the same cost as Netflix Selectquote can help you find the right life insurance policy because some opportunities are just too important to regret later. Life insurance doesn't have to be complicated. Selectquote has been helping people like you and me for over 40 years. Finding the right coverage at the best price from the top rated companies. Here's how it works. Their licensed agents do all the heavy lifting. They compare plans that fit your health, lifestyle and budget completely free. You could even get coverage that same day up to $2 million with no medical exam required. Got pre existing conditions like diabetes or high blood pressure? No problem. Selectquote works with companies that cover people with health conditions. The best part? Life insurance rates will never be lower than they are right now. Just head over to selectquote.com and an agent will call you with options tailored specifically for you. They shop, you save. Life insurance is never cheaper than it is today. Get the right life insurance for you for less and Save more than 50%@SelectQuote.com Peterson Save more than 50% on term life insurance@SelectQuote.com Peterson Today to get started, that's SelectQuote.com Peterson.
- [35:21]
Jordan Peterson
I've been thinking a lot about foundational principles and I wrote in my last book a lot about sacrifice and that that catalyzed a realization for me which was that, well, this is what I want to run by you. So Judaism is predicated on the philosophy of upward sacrifice. So you aim at the good, which would be the opposite of hell, let's say. And then you swear vow to shed everything that's not in keeping with that aim. That's sacrifice. And you could sacrifice on behalf of your well being, your own well being. That would be an abandonment of a kind of narrow hedonism. You could sacrifice for your marital partner, for your family, for your community, for your nation, for then what? Then what's above that? The spirit of your nation, let's say, or the spirit of the upward aim of your nation. It caps out in some transcendent Good Christianity extends that by making. It stunned me this realization by making voluntary self sacrifice in the face of death and hell the foundational principle. And then that's laid out in architecture as you have the crucifix at the center on the altar in the center of the church at the center of the town. We've acted out the idea that voluntary self sacrifice is the proper foundation of the world for 2000 years without making it explicit. Right.
- [37:06]
Douglas Murray
And so because it didn't need to be made explicit. Well, because it already was explicit.
- [37:10]
Jordan Peterson
Well, it was. We acted it out and that was sufficient.
- [37:13]
Advertiser
Right?
- [37:14]
Jordan Peterson
It was sufficient. But now it seems to me that we have to be conscious of it. And there's alternative foundations, power, but it's unstable pleasure, but it devours itself. Faithlessness, that's nihilism and antinatalism cannot be sustained. So, okay, so then one further issue. One of the sticking points between Islam and Christianity, let's say, is conceptions of the death of Christ and the resurrection. Right. That's the primary sticking point. Christ is that Jesus is a central figure in Islam just as he is in Christianity. But there's a deep theological mismatch.
- [37:58]
Douglas Murray
Yes.
- [38:00]
Jordan Peterson
It isn't obvious to me that in the Islamic world that the spirit of voluntary self sacrifice upward is the foundation. It looks to me more like it's something approximating power. Now I say that with trepidation because I've been watching the UAE and Saudi Arabia and the signatories of the Abraham Accords warn the west about ration radical Islamism which they seem to regard as a form of dangerous psychopathy. And it seems to me that it would be a wonderful thing if the Islamic world, the sane Islamic world, could formulate a definition of psychopathic Islamism that would be applied universally and adopt we're not going to do it in the west. We're too damn weak as far as I can tell. Look at the uk, we won't draw borders. Boundaries in the uk we won't draw boundaries in Canada or on the university campuses were too guilt ridden.
- [38:56]
Douglas Murray
Yes. Well, as I see it, and as you know, I've written about this for many years, principally in the strangest south of Europe. What I've seen happening in our era has been two things happening simultaneously. One is the guilt ridden societies that have effectively slough off their faith structure, which in the which happens in the Jewish world as well. There's a movement within Judaism, many sort of reform Judaism and what I call spilt Judaism, which is something called Tikkunu olam which is effectively that the endpoint of Judaism is sort of social justice. Okay, it's effectively for non believing, non believing Jews, but who see themselves as Jews still and Jews but who they.
- [39:51]
Jordan Peterson
Cultural Jews.
- [39:52]
Douglas Murray
Cultural Jews, but that they can express their Judaism by a support for the downtrodden and so on. There's lots of good to be said for that, but it's just that on its own, it's the question, Douglas, is.
- [40:06]
Jordan Peterson
How do you support the downtrodden? And the answer to that is not necessarily by economic means. I don't believe that. Just as we talked about on the other podcast, is that economic incentives don't increase the birth rate. Why? Because people do not live by bread alone.
- [40:22]
Douglas Murray
Yes, yes, right, exactly. In Christianity, in what T Hume called spilt Christianity, you get it in the language of human rights and so on, but again, it doesn't understand the water in which it's been swimming. And so this has been the case for, you might say, 200 years in the West. You might draw the line at different dates. But the interesting thing to me, which is the dangerous moment for our societies is when these forms of very weak sort of spilt religion encounter a religious fervor that is not weak, is not guilt ridden, loves the fact that we are, is very keen to push it on us where it advantages it, and which in the house of Islam has, to put it, quite frankly, not got its house in order. There are those who've told me for a quarter of a century, as evidenced.
- [41:26]
Jordan Peterson
By the almost, almost complete absence of functional societies in the Islamic world, that's.
- [41:34]
Douglas Murray
That'S one piece of evidence. I would add one more.
- [41:36]
Jordan Peterson
It's a big one.
- [41:36]
Douglas Murray
It's a big one. I'd add one on the more personal level, which is why is it that even in every Western society where there are Muslim reformers who are outspoken as reformers and who are the most virulent opponents of the death cult, jihadists and extremists, even the not at the moment violent, but Islamist movements within their midst. Why is it always the reformers who are at risk?
- [42:03]
Jordan Peterson
You mean like Ayan?
- [42:04]
Douglas Murray
Like Ayan I should vilified by the feminists. Of course you'll get a double whammy.
- [42:11]
Jordan Peterson
Because you're seen something to say because.
- [42:14]
Douglas Murray
You'Re seen, among other things, as bringing the problem, because you identified the problem. So you're bringing the problem. We wouldn't have the problem if you hadn't identified it. Endless end. I mean, I think I have a pretty good grasp of the extraordinarily brave individuals who Western countries, never mind in Muslim countries, who have put their head above the parapet and been shot at a hell of a lot, sometimes quite literally. Why is it the case if the House of Islam is in any decent order that it would be that way round? Why would it be that again and again the men of violence keep on being able to say we have the truth on our side? Now there are countries that have pushed this worst interpretation of Islam for centuries. There are specific strains, but we have seen in our own day that this can also be reversed. The House of Saud in the 1990s was pumping Wahhabist ideology. Now if you speak to the Saudis, they will sometimes admit privately that what happened was that after the Iranian revolution, the Khomeinist shiite revolution in 1979 in Iran, the Saudis got spooked and realized they needed a Sunni fundamentalism equal to it. And they drew up the Wahhabist tendencies that were always there. And then they pushed that around the world.
- [43:45]
Jordan Peterson
Oh yeah, as a bulwark.
- [43:48]
Douglas Murray
Since 9 11, the Saudis started to get some pressure on that from the west and others, but that had always been there. But they can diminish it, they can suppress it. They can, instead of propagandizing for the worst versions of Islam, they can try to do something different. You see that, I would argue in the Emirates, you see a very dangerous example of a 1980s 90s era Saudi Arabia in Qatar at the moment, which, although putting out a very materialistic pro Western face, certainly with a lot of money to pump into the west and pollute. A lot of people are playing with.
- [44:26]
Jordan Peterson
Money our idiot industry gives them.
- [44:28]
Douglas Murray
Absolutely. But they are not just playing with, but pumping out the same type of.
- [44:34]
Jordan Peterson
Islamist back to the universities, back to.
- [44:36]
Douglas Murray
The universe, same ideology that the Saudis were pumping out in the past. But I would come back to this central thing which is that the big problem for Islam as a faith is can they deal with this problem within the House of Islam or not?
- [44:54]
Jordan Peterson
Well, that's a very old problem. You know, it goes on. Psychopaths are defined as predatory parasites. And the problem of parasitism is so profound that sex itself evolved to deal with it. So one of the measures of the robustness of a system is its ability to contend with predators and parasites. And if the system is overwhelmed by those forces, then it's become pathological.
- [45:23]
Douglas Murray
But it does go back to the roots. And I always get myself into trouble when I say this, but I say it anyway because it's true. Everybody in the west who looks at this problem can identify endless examples in our own history and in the Western past where religious fundamentalism has erupted and gone very badly wrong. The history of Europe shows that. But if you ask a Christian today, or Even in the 16th century in Europe, if you throw them a verse like he who is without sin casts the first stone, you have got the texts on your side, you have got Jesus on your side. If you want to talk about voluntary self sacrifice for the highest possible good, you do have the Christ on your side.
- [46:25]
Jordan Peterson
So it sounds like the findings from the genetic research, correct me if I'm wrong, are complex, like the genetic findings in relationship to intelligence, that there's a plethora of contributing factors. There's no simple one to one correspondence between a genetic marker. It's more like a symphony of notes than a single causal factor.
- [46:55]
Genetic Researcher
So I mentioned over 100 rare genetic variants. So that already tells our listeners that autism isn't a single gene, it's polygenic. But when we factor in the common genetic variants or variation in the population, where autistic and non autistic people may simply differ in the frequency of particular forms of a gene and the combinations of those genes, we may be talking about hundreds or thousands of genes. So very complex. And even then we know that even if you have identical twins where one is autistic, the other one may not be. And even though they share all of their genes, that must mean that there are some non genetic factors that also play a role in autism. So genes operate in an environment, and it's the interaction between genes and environmental factors that may be changing brain development.
- [47:53]
Jordan Peterson
For example, are there differences in androgen exposure prenatally in the twins, the identical twins who differ in expression of autism? Do we know?
- [48:04]
Genetic Researcher
That's a great question. I mean, back in 2015, our group was the first to demonstrate that autistic people are exposed to higher levels of prenatal testosterone. And then later we found estrogens too, prenatal estrogens. So in all likelihood, the hormonal environment in the womb that the baby is exposed to is interacting with the inherited genetic predisposition that the fetus or the baby is born with. So it's a gene hormone interaction. But that's just the kind of beginning of the research. I mean, you're asking, would it be possible to look at discordant twins where one is autistic and the other one isn't, to see whether hormones might explain hormone exposure, might explain why they're not both autistic? Those kinds of Experiments or studies could be done, but they're challenging because twins themselves are quite a rare occurrence. I think it's about, it's like 1 in 80 in the population. You know, autism itself is not completely rare, but it's only like 2 or 3% of the population. So it's kind of looking for needles in haystacks.
- [49:22]
Jordan Peterson
Right. And what do you make of the claims that. Well, certainly rates of diagnosis of autism have skyrocketed. Now my understanding as a clinician is that decreases in the diagnosis of other so called developmental disorders account for at least some of that. So many people who would have been classified using the archaic terminology of mental retardation are now shunted into the autism category. And so I can't make heads or tails out of the claims that the, the, the, the prevalence of autism is increasing. What do you think about that?
- [50:08]
Genetic Researcher
Yeah, so if we just take the prevalence data from the year 2000 up to today, so that's the last 25 years, the prevalence of autism has increased over 800%. So that's massive. So when I started in this field, autism was considered relatively rare. All the textbooks back in the 80s said that autism was 4 in 10,000 and today it's 1 in 30. Right. So, you know, our listeners would be quite, quite reasonably asking what is causing the increase in the prevalence? I don't think it's just the explanation you gave, which is that people that we used to call learning disability or having a learning disability or an intellectual disability, we no longer use words like retardation because they're stigmatizing. You know, is it simply that they've been reclassified as autistic? That turns out not to be the explanation because the rate of autism in autistic people with a learning disability or an intellectual disability hasn't increased that much over 25 years. Rather it's the other group, autistic people without a learning disability. And that can be explained because back in the mid-90s, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, DSM, that's the American Psychiatric Association's classification system, they introduced a new diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome that was DSM 4, you might remember that. But suddenly there was a new diagnosis that was available, Asperger's syndrome, which was basically autism without a learning or intellectual disability, autism without a language disability or delay. And suddenly that diagnosis became available to people in the general population. Prior to that, we tended to diagnose autism with an intellectual disability. What you, in our previous conversation you referred to as more severe autism in the US they're using a term called profound autism to describe individuals who are autistic, but who've also got many other disabilities like intellectual disability and language disability and motor disabilities. But the real increase seems to be in people whose IQ is in the average range or above, but who are seeking a diagnosis of autism. That's where the increase has come from. And I think that's because of things like social media. If we think about what's happened over the last 25 years, the Internet has really taken off and social media has really taken off. People can learn about autism. 25 years ago, autism was still not very well known about. There's been this huge increase in awareness and recognition and particularly amongst people without a learning disability who might start thinking, I wonder if I'm autistic or I wonder if my child's autistic. So there's been kind of just an interest in pursuing a diagnosis if a child is maybe having social and communication difficulties, or even in an adult who was overlooked in their childhood, never received a diagnosis at the age when it might have been particularly useful, but they struggled right through their teens and have made it into adulthood. But feeling. I've never really felt like I fitted into social groups. I've always had difficulty making friends. But maybe those are individuals who show the other side of autism, the very positive side of autism, which is that laser focus on understanding how things work, understanding systems. So they may be doing very well in music or drawing or chess or activities or domains that are very predictable and highly structured and rule governed, even if they find it very stressful to have a conversation.
- [54:37]
Jordan Peterson
So is there a generalist specialist dichotomy there as well? Is it that the. Because it seems to me that the systemizer types, their advantage is derived from a proclivity to hyper specialize. And you could think of social intelligence in the way that we've defined it, with its focus on high order abstraction in the social domain and a tendency to what to operate in the social world primarily. It looks like a social generalizer, proclivity compared to a thing oriented. Yeah, and that's also that systemizer empathy dichotomy. How is that associated with interest in people and interest in things?
- [55:34]
Genetic Researcher
Yeah, I mean, it broadly splits along those lines. Yeah.
- [55:38]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah. Okay.
- [55:39]
Genetic Researcher
Okay. Yeah. So. So someone who's a systemizer who wants to understand systems has a preference for the specific. We talked a little bit about this in the, in the first segment. You know, if you're, if you're trying to build a bow and arrow, imagine when you were a kid and you were fascinated on could I make a bow and arrow? It's this specific bow and arrow. Why does the arrow fly further if I have a, you know, a bow that's longer or shorter? So you're trying to vary the parameters to try and make a new tool, but it's this specific one. You don't want to generalize it to all bows and arrows. It's just this particular one. And you know, so when we think about autistic people, they do prefer detail rather than generalities. And it's, you know, and, and these different kinds of brains or minds. It's not that one is better and one is worse. We, we need people in the population who are good at the detail. You know, that's, you know, that's why the cameras that are, you know, we're talking through right now, that's why they work, is because the engineers have made sure that every component are fine tuned in this particular system to work. Engineers famously say that when they're developing a new tool, they put it on repeat a million times to make sure that it works reliably. Think of a plane taking off and landing. A million takeoffs and a million landings happen without anything going wrong. And that's how they, so that's the standard that engineers want for this, this very specific plane. You know, will it repeat the operation a million reliably? Reliably, yeah.
- [57:28]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah. Well, you can, you can see there that that proclivity to be sensitive to abnormality, to, to anomaly is actually very useful in that regard because it has to work. Well, many of our systems are like this. They work so reliably that it's truly a kind of miracle. I mean, in a reasonable country, the lights are on essentially 100% of the time, right? Your car doesn't blow up a hundred percent of the time. Your natural gas fittings and pipes don't ever leak. It's not 99.99%. It's way better than that. Right.
- [58:09]
Genetic Researcher
And so, so engineers will accept a failure rate of one in a million and that's considered to be near perfect. And that's when they'll release something into the market as being safe and reliable. Whereas if you take something like empathy, where I'm trying to figure out what you're thinking, at best, all I can do is a guess. You know, I can guess that Jordan is feeling a little bit tired. I can guess that Jordan is interested in what I'm saying. But these are just guesses because other people's mental states are not transparent. I can use your facial cues, I can use your body language, I can listen to your words. But I'll never know for certain. Whereas in the world of systemizing, I can know for certain. I've checked all of the variables that this particular tool will work, you know, 999 times out of a thousand, or, you know, there'll only be one failure per million. So there's a, you know. So specificity and understanding a system can lead to control over the system. In the world of human relationships, there's very little control. There are too many unknowns. And it may be that that's why many autistic people find the social world too confusing.
- [59:53]
Advertiser
Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, supporting everyone from established brands to entrepreneurs just starting their journey. You can create your professional storefront effortlessly with Shopify's extensive library of customizable templates designed to reflect your brand's unique identity, boost your productivity with Shopify's AI powered tools to craft compelling products, descriptions, engaging headlines, and even enhance your product's photography, all with just a few clicks. Plus, you can market your business like a pro without hiring a team. Easily develop and launch targeted email campaigns and social media content that reaches customers wherever they spend their time online or or offline. If that's not enough, Shopify offers expert guidance on every aspect of commerce, from inventory management to international shipping logistics to seamless return processing. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period and start selling today at shopify.com jbp go to shopify.com jbp again, that's shopify.com jbp.