← The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
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- [00:00]
Jordan Peterson
The first thing I would say is that the story that you told painted you too clearly as the villain. You don't want to bear the burden of the children that you serve so intently that it just drives you into the ground because then you're another person in need of care. Driving yourself into the ground is not a good solution. You have less time for many things than you think. You should be aware of that and grateful and awake and minimize the stupidity and unnecessary suffering. You focus on making the pathway that you have to walk, painful as it is the least, like hell it can possibly be. It's a moral requirement not to lose faith. You try to be grateful for the brief existence of your son despite the pain of his loss. There's an old idea that God walks with us when we're suffering. Although we're called upon to bear the utter catastrophe of mortality and malevolence, the spirit that resides at the bottom of being itself is there with us as we suffer. Thank you to everybody who brought these serious concerns forward in such a thoughtful and revelatory man.
- [01:23]
Michaela Peterson
This episode is going to be tough. We're dealing with people who are experiencing serious levels of tragedy. I'm extremely grateful to be here to help. Hopefully it helps you guys too. We have a serious lineup of callers today. This might get heavy. We're going to start with Erica in Tennessee.
- [01:41]
Jordan Peterson
Erica, hi.
- [01:42]
Erica
Dr. Peterson, thank you so much for the opportunity today to talk to you. A little bit of background for you. My husband was medically retired from the air Force at 16 years and that was due to a stage four colorectal cancer diagnosis at the age of 34. We have been fighting that for seven and a half years now. And obviously throughout that time period there has been lots of surgeries, medical interventions, lots of treatment, and most notably, and I guess the biggest blessing is that we were able to conceive our daughter throughout that time period through ivf. And she's now this beautiful five year old little girl that is very bright and we are looking at how we can talk to her about this. And so the big question is, how do we explain to our 5 year old that her daddy has a significant advanced cancer in a way that she can understand the gravity of that and the weight of that, while at the same time balancing fears and concerns that something terrible might happen tomorrow?
- [03:04]
Jordan Peterson
Well, is she asking questions?
- [03:08]
Erica
So we've kind of phrased it with her that her daddy has an owie, right? So whenever he does go through chemotherapy or have surgeries, the chemotherapy is a three day long process. So he brings the medication home with him. And so her big thing is she just doesn't understand why she can't do certain things with daddy. You know, why we can't, we have to be careful. And she just doesn't really understand what, when it's going to go away.
- [03:36]
Jordan Peterson
The most important, imagine that you have a child and the child is watching a scary movie with you and they aren't sure how to react because the person that they're identifying with is in danger. What you tell them to do is not to be scared and not to close their eyes, but to watch the hero of the movie because they will figure out how to get through it. And so you can explain to your daughter what's going on in the most sophisticated language that she can understand, that people get hurt, that people get sick, that that's the case for her, that's the case for her parents, it's the case for everyone that you love. But that you can face it together and you can cope with it and contend with it and pull out things that are good and enjoy your time together. If you hang together as a family and pay careful attention. See, because you can't hide the truth from her. The truth is the terrible truth. And it's also uncertain. I mean, you've been, your family has been dealing with this for a multi year period. You have an indefinite period of uncertainty interlaced with suffering ahead of you. And she has that to face as well and her understanding of that will develop. What she needs to know is that people's ability to contend with trouble is almost unlimited if they face it squarely, honestly, and have support. And then practically speaking, I would also say that the way that a family can deal with such things when the circumstances become overwhelming is to shorten their time frame of concern. You know, the more uncertainty there is in the future, the shorter the time frame over which you start to perceive. So sometimes when your life is stable and everything is promising, you can think out five years. Sometimes you can think out one year, sometimes a month, sometimes a week, sometimes the next day, sometimes the next minute. And so as the crisis intensifies, the period of time that you attend to shortens. And in real periods of crisis, you shorten your time frame to the next, the next minutes. And you focus on making the pathway that you have to walk, painful as it is, as the least, like hell it can possibly be. You know, and now I've seen. So when, when my wife and I in particular were dealing with my daughter's illness and our own Intense illnesses. We would shorten our time frames certainly to the day. You know, let's get through the day, let's not bring in any other concerns that aren't absolutely paramount and let's treat each other very carefully. And we also did things that, that you might find useful too. Like we had rules, my wife and I, when we were dealing with my daughter's illness, which was chronic, not to talk about it. After a certain time at night, it's like we can't be neck deep in this absolute bloody catastrophe 100% of the time because all that'll happen is we'll burn ourselves to a crisp and we have a long haul in front of us in all likelihood. So I don't remember exactly what the rule was. I think it was we didn't talk about anything that was illness related after 8 o' clock at night. And so, you know, you can set aside times to intense, intently focus on the catastrophe at hand. And then you want to set aside time times with your daughter to spend attentive time with her and schedule that in every day. But most important is to let her know that you can face things. You know, she has a tremendous challenge in front of her, especially for someone that young. The only thing you can do about it is fortify her belief that she can handle it and you can all handle it together, no matter what comes. And that's true, especially if you're extremely careful and you strive not to add additional complication to the situation.
- [08:24]
Michaela Peterson
Mick, I don't know what this lady's faith is, but the only way I really managed to handle your illness was through faith. And I wouldn't, I didn't, I wasn't like a Christian at that point, but I had this really strong belief that everything was gonna be okay. Like, and that might have even been a naive belief. It might have been what I needed to believe in order to get through it, but that's what got me through it. And now I would say the only way to deal with how horrible illness can be. And like life, sometimes when you are trying to figure out how to survive the next hour is having some sort of faith. Because it is, at least for me, it is too heavy. Like this world is too.
- [09:14]
Jordan Peterson
I think part of that that isn't naive is the idea that if you're, if, if you're facing upward and trying to do the right thing, even under very difficult circumstances, that you maximize the possibility that you' find a path that isn't like the ultimate hell. At least that. And I think that's right. You know, the, the, the deep stories that I've looked at. The story of Job in particular, which is a story of intense suffering, is predicated on the idea that under the worst of circumstances. So that would be unjust suffering, because that's the worst of circumstances. Unjust, intense suffering, or even worse, unjust intense suffering directed just towards someone who's been conducting themselves well, is that you are called upon not to lose faith in yourself and your value and not to lose faith in the spirit of being right in God. Here it's a moral requirement not to lose faith. So that's actually a form of courage rather than a form of naivety, you know. And so you can have a naive faith in the future, but if that's disrupted by tragedy or malevolence, that tends to be traumatic. If you have a courageous faith, what you understand is that there's more to you than has yet been revealed and that you don't know the future. And so despair is a sin. And I think that's right. And you can think about it. Just, you can just think about it practically. You know, if you're suffering and suffering unjustly and then you lose faith in yourself and the world, you've taken the unjust suffering and multiplied it. And if you confront that instead with the faith that a pathway can be found, or at least the least terrible pathway can be found, well, then you're in a position to, to take whatever offering comes to you in the midst of the suffering. And there can be lots. Like I saw when your mom was dealing with the death of her mother and her father, her family pulled together. I've seen that in the aftermath of my parents death. Like my, my brother and sister and I, who were pretty close, have been working to be even closer afterwards. So you can do that. You can pull together. And so. And that's what you look for. And you practice your gratitude even in the midst of catastrophe, and you aim up and trudge forward, you know, and the fact that you and your mom didn't lose faith when I was so ill and was wishing that things would just come to an end for years, that was certainly a huge part of what got me through it. Good.
- [12:07]
Michaela Peterson
I knew you were going to pull through. I don't know why. Yeah, but I did.
- [12:10]
Jordan Peterson
Well, your mom said the same thing.
- [12:13]
Michaela Peterson
Faith.
- [12:14]
Jordan Peterson
Yep.
- [12:17]
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- [13:16]
Michaela Peterson
Okay, next, next. So on the line now we have Carl in California.
- [13:22]
Carl
It's funny that you're talking about faith because my father just passed and before he died, you know, you don't really realize when your last conversation is going to be. And I didn't know that this would be the one. But I asked him, he a strong Christian and I asked him that he'd been throwing up from esophageal cancer, he'd been really in bad shape. And I asked him, dad, have you been praying and how's your faith? And he looked at me and kind of shook his head and I just had this calling to pray with him. So I asked him if I could pray with him and he said yes. And I'm not necessarily the best prayer in the world, but I prayed with him and he held onto my hand so tightly and looked at me and with these eyes that I'll never forget. And it was like almost like God or the universe looking back at me. And he said thank you.
- [14:17]
Jordan Peterson
And.
- [14:19]
Carl
Anyway, I just wanted to share that I have a question. But that was maybe one of the most powerful moments of my life besides my daughter being born. Yeah, My question is recently lost my father and he was an actor and a huge reason I became a filmmaker and an artist. Now as a husband and a father of a two year old daughter, I'm stepping into a new role both as a leader of my family and the leader of my work. My first feature film is actually coming together right as I'm grieving. And all this loss and all this loss is happening at the same time with this amazing opportunity to tell a story. And how do I balance all of this grief, responsibility, health issues with my family, creative purpose without losing my footing.
- [15:07]
Jordan Peterson
Okay, well, I'm going to address both of the things that you said. You know, one of the things that I recommend to people when they're dealing with, when they're facing the reality of their aging parents, is to count. So When I was 50 and my parents were 70, we lived a fair distance from them, and we. We spent some time together every year. And I counted the remaining times, and there was, like, 25 of them, and 25. That's not a very big number. And that was 25 if everything went well. And so one of the things you do have to understand is that you have less time for many things than you think, and you should be aware of that and grateful and awake and maximize the time and minimize the stupidity and unnecessary suffering, because you do not know when that's gonna. That opportunity is gonna disappear. And then, you know, you're. So there's that. And so you touched on that at the beginning of your story. And then the prayer issue. The. The right way to pray, so to speak, is to ask for faith and strength and resilience and courage in the face of catastrophe, to set your sight so that you can conduct yourself with a certain amount of nobility and. And to ask for the strength to share that with people when they're suffering. And, you know, and you saw that. You saw that with your father. You know, you were able to unite with him and to see to the bottom of his soul, you know, and there's an old idea that God walks with us when we're suffering, and that Christ on the cross, for example, was simultaneously suffering from all the suffering in the world. And the idea there is that although we're called upon to bear the utter catastrophe of mortality and malevolence, that the spirit that resides at the bottom of being itself is there with us as we suffer. And I believe. I believe as a biologist that that's true. And I think the reason for that, in part, is that if you face what you faced, for example, with your father, then the best part of you is required to emerge, to deal with it. And human beings like we are adapted to our life, terrible as that. Life is bounded by mortality and malevolence. If we don't shrink from it, something can emerge within us that can help us bear it gratefully, even gratefully, which is a hell of a thing to ask for in the midst of suffering. And you had that moment of grace where you saw that. And my wife had a similar experience with her son These things happen. And it's. It's. It's the same thing that happened to Moses when he saw to the bottom of the burning bush, for example, and God spoke to him. If you. If you look upon what's most horrifying with absolute intensity, you can see to the bottom of the world. And you had a taste of that. And so. All right, and then the next. The question, what I would say is that you need to compartmentalize and schedule, you know, because you have this weird, paradoxical juxtaposition of responsibility and chaos and grief and opportunity. And you need to set up your days so that you have opportunity and time set aside to focus on what all of those things. And that way you can keep them straight and bounded and separate. And so you may need time to think about your father and to grieve. You obviously need time to attend to your daughter. You need time to do your creative work. And look, I'm a big fan of scheduling. And most people don't like schedules. They don't like using a Google Calendar, for example, which I use, like, religiously. And that's because they use a schedule like it's a prison. They write down all the things they have to do, and then they fight against that because they put themselves in. It's like they're their own worst super ego. They're their own tyrant. You. This is the day you have to have. That's not how you use a schedule. The way you use a schedule is that you produce a contract with yourself to have the day you'd really like to have and to repeat that. Think, well, there are a certain number of things I have to do to keep the world in order around me day by day. So I have to schedule those in because otherwise the chaos mounts and that's not good. And then I want to mix in there a certain amount of leisure so that I get a chance to think and to recover. And I want to lace that with the opportunities that I really want to pursue, and I want to play with that until the balance between that proclivity to order and that proclivity to pursue chaos and opportunity is optimized, so that when I look at my schedule, I think I could do that. And at the end of that, I'll be satisfied that I conducted myself responsibility responsibly and I took advantage, proper advantage of the day. And so this is particularly true. You're a father now. Your responsibilities are multiplying. You have to organize your time intelligently, you know, and there's all sorts of Ways to increase the amount of time you have. You know, if you're finding it difficult to find time to do your creative work, get up at five, you know, it only takes two weeks before you're accustomed to that. Then you might have three hours in the morning before you're, before you have any other responsibilities at all. And, and pay particular attention in your schedule. This is something people never get right to the things that repeat every day. Because the things that repeat every day, that's your life. Get those things right. And if you use your. There's no limit to the number of things you do. If you use your time wisely and also if you build a bit of an organization around you and distribute responsibility, you know, and if you're facing too many challenges on the domestic front, maybe you need some help. But assume that you can do it and pursue your opportunities. Live up to your responsibilities, but optimize your time utilization and put some help in where you need it and then play with your schedule until you think, man, if I did all that in the next month, two months, three months, if I did all that day by day, I'd have the life I'd really like to have. So you can do that.
- [22:15]
Michaela Peterson
That seems wise. I think some of the things that helped me when we were going through hell, I did. You reminded me of this. I set aside like worry free hours. So literally scheduled. Okay. From 5 to 8pm tonight I'm just not gonna think about it. And I was like, what disaster is going to befall me in three hours if I just don't think about it for a little bit? So that was helpful. I also, just to wrap it up, I don't think you can be a bad prayer. I don't think God cares about that at all. I don't think there's a way to do it. I think it's whatever is in your heart. So I don't think there's a sacrifice.
- [22:57]
Jordan Peterson
That assumes that you're striving upward. Yeah. What's in your heart, you can strive upward badly.
- [23:04]
Michaela Peterson
Is that even badly?
- [23:08]
Jordan Peterson
Well, it's badly in that your aim and your ability to improve. Your aim can continually improve. Right.
- [23:14]
Michaela Peterson
So you can always.
- [23:16]
Jordan Peterson
Well, that's that, that's. That's what I mean by badly. But the true goodness in the pursuit of improvement is walking the pathway of improvement. It isn't like. So what you need is an. You don't have to be somewhere good. Exactly. Or. And you don't even have to be doing. You certainly don't have to be Doing things perfectly. You have to be aiming up. Right. And then if you're aiming up and you're walking that pathway up, then that's good. Now there's still room for improvement. But, but the thing is you, that's part of it being good. You wouldn't want a situation where you had run out of room for improvement because you'd be out of possibility. The, the, the worry free time, there's a cognitive trick that goes along with that. What happens is if you put aside that time and a worry comes up, what you do is you tell yourself, I will worry about that, you know, at the scheduled time. And the, the alarm part of your brain is the part that produces anxiety. And it's not exactly a cognitive part. It doesn't exactly care what your plan is. What it cares about is that you have a plan. It's like a little kid who's anxious. It wants to know that someone's in control. There's lots of good plans, but, but a very bad plan is no plan. So if you get worried and you say, I will think exactly about that at 7 o' clock tomorrow morning and you train yourself, that'll work. That'll work. Yep. It's very necessary, especially when all hell is broken loose.
- [24:54]
Michaela Peterson
Agreed. I think it, it took me six months after mom was diagnosed, we were dealing with your health problems or a year to figure out that I didn't have to solve. First of all, there are unsolvable problems and then it can just drive you crazy. So it, I think it took me a year to figure out I could take a break and that I needed, I needed to not worry for a lit, like at least a little bit each day.
- [25:18]
Jordan Peterson
Right, right.
- [25:18]
Michaela Peterson
And that's, and you can train it.
- [25:19]
Jordan Peterson
That that's morally acceptable and necessary. Right. Because you can easily feel guilty about like, well, it's like that's a Sabbath, you know.
- [25:29]
Michaela Peterson
Well, and God says, don't worry about tomorrow. He full on tells you that don't worry about tomorrow.
- [25:35]
Jordan Peterson
Well, that, that has something to do with the issue of time frame that we described. So the idea is to orient yourself upward and then to focus on the moment and then you can adjust the size of the moment. But the idea is that if you intensely focus upward and you pay enough attention to what's right in front of you, the tomorrow will take care of itself. And that's in the, in the best way that it can. That doesn't, that doesn't mean it's not going to be a wavy ride, you.
- [26:05]
Michaela Peterson
Know, that's for sure.
- [26:07]
Jordan Peterson
Yep. You're not everything you could be, and you know it. Would you like to develop a foundation of knowledge so solid that nothing could shake you? To learn about music, art, literature, mathematics, history and biology? Where can you find people who want to teach you, at your speed, about the topics you deem crucial so you can become the best that you could be? At Peterson Academy, we have 50 stellar 8 hour lectures already available, 4 more new ones a month. Consider deeply who you could be. Do your future self a favor. Join our thriving, ambassador, ambitious community of 40,000 people.
- [26:56]
Michaela Peterson
We have another caller. Are you ready?
- [26:58]
Jordan Peterson
I'm ready.
- [27:00]
School Counselor
Hello, Ms. Peterson. Hi, Dr. Peterson. How are you?
- [27:03]
Jordan Peterson
Good, good. Thanks for participating. I'm looking forward to your question.
- [27:08]
School Counselor
Thank you for taking my call. So, to begin, I work as a school counselor in a middle school, in a high school setting. So over the last few years, the job has become more and more taxing to my own mental health. You know, I'm navigating these waters of the children and their issues, but I've almost becoming increasingly numb to their issues. My own personal issues and familial issues. To add a little bit more of a background, my parents are getting older. My father is a retired New York City fireman, so he deals a lot of the trauma just from the job. And of course, nine, 11, you know, and my mother, you know, God bless her, you know, she's, she's going through her very own mental health challenges right now. She's, she's struggling a lot and she's in and out of therapies. So my sisters have looked at me as almost like the pseudo parent, you know, to, to parent them, to make decisions for the family, to coordinate events, to coordinate emotions and doctor's appointments. It's simultaneously moving forward as, as this job is becoming more taxing. So I just need assistance in navigating these waters, you know. You know, they're becoming older and I'm not sure I can keep pace with their needs as, as well as keeping a sane mind.
- [28:32]
Jordan Peterson
How many sisters do you have?
- [28:35]
School Counselor
I have two younger siblings.
- [28:37]
Jordan Peterson
How much younger?
- [28:39]
School Counselor
One year younger and four years younger.
- [28:41]
Jordan Peterson
How is your communication with them?
- [28:44]
School Counselor
We're extremely close, whether it's text or phone calls, where, or seeing each other on weekends.
- [28:50]
Jordan Peterson
Okay, let's start with that. Well, I would say, the first thing I would say about your situation is that what you're essentially reporting is that you have too many concerns on your plate. Now that might be situational, and there's a situational element to it. It might Also be that you haven't learned well enough to detach yourself from the suffering for enough, enough. Like one of the dangers of being a caring person is that you're carrying the burdens of other people all the time. Well, you can't do that because you die and then you're useless. And so, so one of the things you have to do as a caring person is you have to, you have to direct some of that care toward yourself and understand that you're in a medium to long term game. You don't want to bear the burden of the children that you serve and your parents and your sister so intently that it just drives you into the ground because then you're another person in need of care. And that addition of misery to the world is not helpful. So you're going to have to determine just exactly how much of a load you can iteratively carry. And look, every person in a helping profession has to deal with this. You know, I don't know how many kids you can see a day. I don't know how much time you need away from that concern. You have to play with this. You're going to need time every day where you don't think about the kids and you don't think about your parents and your sister and time when you do and you adopt your responsibilities and then you have to negotiate with yourself until you find out how much of that you can take so that you're not terrified when you wake up in the morning. And that's a way of discovering who you are. Like there's going to be a load you can carry and there's going to be a load you can't carry. And you might be able to learn to increase the load as you get more efficient and you get more resilient. But it's not unreasonable for you to have a limit. So you, you need to back off from the responsibilities until your ability to move forward in the job and with your parents is re established and you're, you'll have to play with that. And that'll mean training yourself once you leave work, for example, not to think about work. And, and, and to take to yourself not only the moral right to do that, but the moral responsibility to do that. Driving yourself into the ground is not a good solution. It's not an ethical solution. It'd be better if you stayed in the world and were helpful. Okay. Now, on the side with your sisters, how old are you?
- [31:44]
School Counselor
I'm 32 years old.
- [31:45]
Jordan Peterson
Okay, and so your sisters are in their late 20s. Okay. So, you guys, it's possible that you need to have a practical meeting with your sisters for an hour once a week or once every two weeks and parse out the responsibilities. It if you do that well, then you'll learn to work together as a unit, and you should be able to make the complicated situation with your parents as the least amount complicated possible over the next few decades. And you'll be able to work together to distribute the workload in the manner that's most. That's optimized so that you can all do it. If you don't set aside that time, it sounds to me if you don't set aside that time, it's that time is going to be demanded of you when you're least likely to manage it. Instead, you know, you could set up a meeting with your sisters and at their convenience, after you've all eaten, so that you're accustomed to it, and you could learn to work together so that the responsibilities are distributed. People aren't generally that good at negotiating, and so you got to lay down some rules, which is, well, why are we doing this? To have the least amount of hell possible, and so that we can serve our parents and ourselves most effectively and maybe make our relationship grow while we do it. Establish your joint aim. Then the next rule is, everybody brings their concerns to the table, everybody listens, and no one is forced to do anything against their will. Right? So if everyone understands the game and you develop that trust, then they'll be able to do it. Then the next rule is, if you get upset during the meeting, you can leave, but you have to come back. And then the next rule is, everybody accepts the best solution that can be generated unless they can come up with a better solution. And so I would set aside some time right away to start talking to your sisters and distributing the responsibility properly.
- [33:58]
Michaela Peterson
So I think, and this is something I had to figure out because I realized when I was 25 that I was becoming resentful by doing too much for other people, because I thought that was the right thing to do. And this was having you as a dad who had told me that this could happen to people. But it took me a while to realize that it was happening to me. And it took a number of years to figure out. I really had to internally listen to the little voice that goes, I don't want to do that.
- [34:31]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, right.
- [34:31]
Michaela Peterson
You know, I don't want to do that. And for agreeable people who are compassionate in the beginning, it feels extremely selfish to say, I don't want to do that.
- [34:41]
Jordan Peterson
Y.
- [34:42]
Michaela Peterson
But you have to listen to that little voice and you have to tell people, I don't want to do that and I can't handle it. And I think it's reasonable that if people are coming to you, this is more family related than the kids. But if your sisters are coming to you because they don't want to do it and you also don't want to do it, then you have to negotiate. How, like how to figure that out. But it's not immoral to say, I don't want to do this. You have to listen to that.
- [35:09]
Jordan Peterson
Well, the right attitude to take to that is that you should listen to yourself like you would listen to someone that you care for that you're taking care of.
- [35:19]
Michaela Peterson
Like your sister.
- [35:20]
Jordan Peterson
Exactly. And so that's how to calibrate. If you're an agreeable person and you're dealing with the problem that you just described, what do you. What simulation do you run? Pretend you're someone you care about. Right. And then you say, well, if I was my sister, if I was dealing with my sister and she had this concern, how would I treat her? Well, treat yourself that way. Yeah, right. Like there are narcissists who are selfish and then there are agreeable people who are like reverse narcissists. Everyone else comes first and there is being selfish in the self centered way, that's not good. But taking advantage of yourself counterproductively and becoming bitter and resentful in the service of others, that is not hurting yourself. Yeah. It's not a moral accomplishment. And some of that voice that says, I don't want to do this can be immaturity and you have to deal with that. But some of it can be, that's.
- [36:14]
Michaela Peterson
Too much or I can't do this.
- [36:16]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, well, that's it. I don't know how, but it's also, I can see that that will be too much for me across time. Well, then it's not an acceptable solution. Now, that doesn't mean the acceptable solution is obvious. But a fair bit of that often has to do with negotiation and distribution of responsibility.
- [36:32]
Michaela Peterson
We have another caller. Are you ready?
- [36:34]
Jordan Peterson
I'm ready.
- [36:36]
Michaela Peterson
This is Brian from New York.
- [36:38]
Jordan Peterson
Good to see you.
- [36:40]
Brian
Thank you. The question I have. Several years ago, a severe back injury led to an opioid addiction, failed surgery, a major heart attack, deep depression. Depression and undiagnosed bipolar disorder that destroyed my career in higher education. My marriage survived because of my loving wife. And my faith in God was ultimately restored through wrestling with scripture and countless hours in prayer, however, my teenage sons witnessed everything. My addiction, instability, and the downfall of my career that had built over. Over the years. They've rejected both faith and me in many ways, and they've both become bitter atheists. My greatest heartbreak is knowing that struggles caused their pain and drove them from a close relationship with God. The question I have is, how can I rebuild a trusting, meaningful relationship with my teenage boys while gently encouraging them to reconsider their rejection of faith without alienating them any further?
- [37:38]
Jordan Peterson
How old are they?
- [37:40]
Brian
14 and 19. 13 and 19. Excuse me.
- [37:43]
Jordan Peterson
Are they living with you? Yes, sir. Okay. Well, the first thing I would say is, be. Be careful in your proclivity to attribute all of that to yourself. Like, everyone has their own destiny. Everyone. And that's true even of young children. And the pattern of reaction that your sons took to your situation is a dance between you and them. It's not to be laid at your feet. So. So they are participating in this as well. So I would say it's not obvious to me that this is your fault. It's pretty obvious that it's a catastrophe. That's not the same thing. And if you reflexively assume that it's your fault, then you validate their presumption that it was a failure on your part. Now, I imagine you failed in some ways, and you succeeded in some ways. You're still here. You're still married. You're still aiming upward. You've managed to maintain some faith. You've had a hell of a miserable time. Like, those are accomplishments. One question that emerges for me right away is that, like, why. Why is it the case that the story in your family isn't that you prevailed somewhat heroically over horrible circumstances and odds? Lots of people end up with an opiate addiction in the aftermath of chronic pain.
- [39:30]
Michaela Peterson
I did.
- [39:31]
Jordan Peterson
You know, this happens all the time. And this manic depressive disorder, like, that's a serious physiological illness. That's not. Manic depressive disorder isn't psychological. It's not like it's a consequence of your flaw. Yeah, I mean, I know there's a physician at Harvard who's treating bipolar successfully with a low carb diet. You know, so the. The first thing I would say is that the story that you told me when you asked that question painted you too clearly as the villain. And like, I'm not saying there was no villainy involved. Everybody's flawed. No doubt you made mistakes. But the. The notion that this is a story of your catastrophic moral failure and the consequence of that is that your Sons have been disabused of their faith. That's not the only story that can be derived out of these circumstances. And so, you know, I have a program that you might want to try online@self authoring.com called the Past Authoring Program and helps you write an autobiography. And you like, you got a lot of things to sort through because your situation is really complex and you might want to write that, do that program and try to give yourself the benefit of the doubt. And once you have that inkling that a lot of what happened to you was situational, you can start to have that discussion with your sons. You know, and then I would say more practically, if you want to re establish the relationship, well, first of all I would say sit down and tell them that you really want that. It's like, look kids, it's like we've had a bitch of a time. We don't want to propagate this hell in our family for the next 20 years. We want to find a way we can get back together. It's like ask them, do you have some ideas? How about we go have coffee or go for lunch together once a week for half an hour and just see if we can be happy we're with each other. You know that that's a good, good way of starting, is like start with something simple that you can do together. But, but don't be assuming that you're the villain here. You know, I mean, look, lots of people don't take enough responsibility for their actions, but it's very simple to make the opposite error and to paint yourself. And this is something conscientious people are likely to do by the way. Like if you are the sort of person who is somewhat self sacrificing and who is responsible and industrious and things go wrong, the, the automatic tendency is going to be to assume that you're some sort of moral failure. But you know, you laid out the sequence, you had a pretty nasty medical occurrence. Look, most people who become depressed, by the way, most people who become depressed, the depression is precipitated by some catastrophe. It isn't just, doesn't just come out of the blue. So you know, begin by cutting yourself a break and thinking about what you did right and understanding that you are still here and there's hope for the future. And then invite your boys to put the family back together and have them contribute their ideas about how that can be done. You can ask them, it's like, do they want to be alienated and miserable and angry for the next 20 years, or do you want to all work together and pull yourselves back together? So. And then you can help negotiate. You can help them negotiate and find their way to do that. Once you guys have set a joint aim, the joint aim should be Jesus, you know, we've been through enough. How about we don't torture each other to death unnecessarily for the next 10 years and maybe we can find our way together. They're old enough to participate in that.
- [43:41]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah, I agree with everything you said that it sounds situational. Injury, opiate addiction. Opioids are addictive. So, I mean, I didn't take. I took them for a year. I had miserable withdrawal for about six weeks. Miserable. It was oxycontin. And then it took me a couple years to recover from taking them, and I only took them for a year. So that's not a moral failure. They are addictive. You can't do anything about that. Right. And then the mental health things like, who knows how much of that is either diet related or because of the opiates. Like, that's a lot going on.
- [44:17]
Jordan Peterson
Or the pain. Or the pain. Yeah.
- [44:19]
Michaela Peterson
Who knows? I would also say, like, those kids are still young, they might just need some time. And I know in regards to faith, what helped me was just witnessing what it did to people. So when mom had cancer and got saved and was like, God saved me, I could see the change in her.
- [44:39]
Jordan Peterson
And.
- [44:39]
Michaela Peterson
And it stayed. It wasn't like a month long thing. That was a trick or something. It stayed and I walked.
- [44:44]
Jordan Peterson
No, it stayed and it improved.
- [44:46]
Michaela Peterson
It stayed and it strengthened. Yeah. And then when I met my husband, I was like, okay, this is a. I could feel. It felt like safe, loving, warm. And so I think if. If you can manage to be a source of safety for a while, this will just go away, you know, Might need some time.
- [45:07]
Jordan Peterson
Well, that, that's also why it's useful to have these events together, to go out for lunch, to do small things together that are without crisis and just re. Establish those islands of stability. So. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, good luck with that. Good luck with that. I. I think you should face this with the assumption and you can bring your boys into this discussion. Why don't you guys all move forward with the assumption that you should do this, that you can do it, that there'll be bumps along the way, but that, you know, if you guys put in. They're still pretty young teenagers. If you guys put in a couple of years of diligent effort, I see no reason why you couldn't put your family back together.
- [45:49]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah, agreed. Last but not least, we have a pre recorded call from Alex in the uk.
- [45:55]
Jordan Peterson
All right.
- [45:57]
Alex
Hi, Jordan. I have a three year old son who unfortunately has been very sick since birth. He was given an initial life expectancy of two years and so we've done well to get to this point, but we recently had a three month long hospital stay with a period in intensive care in the middle of that and we were told that he may only have weeks or at best months to live in. 12 rules for life. You described how you and your family managed with Michaela's health struggles. And that was very helpful for me and my wife when things weren't as bad as they are now. But I feel like this situation is far more acute and in a few weeks or months from now, life will never be the same for us. My question is, do you have any more advice on how to navigate life during this period and manage a very high stressful job, interpersonal relationships, and to try to make the most of the time that we have left with him?
- [46:56]
Jordan Peterson
Well, we spoke earlier in the episode about the utility of narrowing your time frame. And so you are in for a period of intense suffering. And one of the only ways I really know how to ameliorate that is to focus on the moment, on the increasingly small moment you and your wife would do well. And this might be the case with the friends and family around you that are supportive to attend to each other's comfort and concern with more attention than usual. And, you know, instead of you being concerned about your suffering, which you can be properly concerned about, and your wife being concerned about hers, she could be concerned about yours and you could be concerned about hers and you could practice taking care of each other. And with any luck, this is a very tricky thing to negotiate, you know, because a lot of couples collapse as a consequence of the loss of a child. It's a very severe situation that you're facing. And if you can orient yourself so that you're doing what you can to ameliorate the grief of your wife and vice versa, you'll serve each other during this time. And with any luck, that will strengthen your love. Now, that'll also be useful for your child because it's necessary for him to see that you two are a unit that's solid while he's in distress and chaos. And so that'll also be the best way to serve him. And then I would say, what next? What next?
- [48:52]
Michaela Peterson
Next I can jump in.
- [48:54]
Jordan Peterson
Yes, do that.
- [48:55]
Michaela Peterson
Well, I was going to add on to your. I don't think anybody can handle that situation. I don't think there are psychological tricks to handle that. Like, that is going to be a mess because it's a. It's a disaster. Right. So.
- [49:13]
Jordan Peterson
Right.
- [49:13]
Michaela Peterson
So you have to figure out how to suffer and have it not take you out, you know?
- [49:18]
Jordan Peterson
Yes, that's right.
- [49:18]
Michaela Peterson
That's right. I think your suggestion of focus on your wife and try to keep the relationship intact is key, because even in. Not that I've gone through something like that and I have three kids and I've thought about that. Cause I think that's every parent's fear. And I have thought about that, I guess, because it's every parent's fear. But when thinking about that, I figured, okay, what I would do in that situation is focus on my relationship to make sure the relationship stays intact, because I. I'll survive this, you know, so you guys can survive this. You guys can survive this. It won't feel like surviving while it's going on, and that is completely normal, but you guys can survive this. And if you focus on each other, then your relationship can survive this, and.
- [50:08]
Jordan Peterson
Then you'll have a foundation for the future as well. Yeah.
- [50:10]
Michaela Peterson
And that's about as good as it gets, you know.
- [50:12]
Jordan Peterson
And the other thing I would say is that you can also you said of your son's life that you implied that you'd been blessed by the fact that his life has been longer than was originally predicted. And so one of the things you do when you grieve that's worth noticing is that the fact that you grieve is a celebration of the person's worth. Right. You wouldn't grieve if you didn't appreciate at a very deep level that the existence of the person that you're grieving for was a blessing, even in its truncated form, you know. And so one of the things you do, this is very difficult thing to manage, is that you. You try to be grateful for the brief existence of your son despite the pain of his loss. And that's. That's hard. But you wouldn't be grieving if you weren't grateful. And so you have to remind yourselves of that. You have to try to make the most of the time you have left with very acute focus on the comfort of your partner and faith that your relationship can strengthen and triumph through this and that you're young enough so you don't know yet what the future will bring. And then, as Michaela implied, give yourself a break for your suffering because it's going to be rough, then that doesn't mean you're doing something wrong.
- [52:00]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah, so that was rough. Thank you so much to our callers. I know how hard it is to be vulnerable with those experiences and I think they exemplified human suffering extremely well, unfortunately. So hopefully those people suffering can help you guys watching. So thank you for watching.
- [52:22]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, well. And thank you to everybody who brought these like serious concerns forward in such a thoughtful and profound and revelatory manner. It was those are very good questions and very serious discussions and so appreciate the fact that you brought them to our attention that we had a chance to discuss them and I hope wish for all of you the best. Do you have a question you'd like us to explore? Share it with us at the link in the video's description and let's face life's challenges together.
- [53:06]
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