← The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
Answer the Call | Advice for Dealing with Bullies, Big Tech and Social Media
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- [00:00]
Michaela Peterson
You got bullied, right? You talked all the time. Everybody gets bullied, but some people are bullied more than others.
- [00:05]
John
My son Anthony is overweight. His friends used to tease him and ridicule him.
- [00:10]
Victoria
Our 8 year old son has been called fat by a few friends. How can we as parents encourage a healthy lifestyle, knowing when or if to focus on weight?
- [00:19]
Jordan Peterson
The situation that you're both facing at the moment is not optimal by any stretch of the imagination.
- [00:25]
Marilyn
My husband and I are parents to two young adult ladies. When we're asked for guidance about dating, we feel like the generation gap right now is more like a generation chasm.
- [00:36]
Diego
How can parents raise children to value depth in an age dominated by short form content?
- [00:42]
Jordan Peterson
Well, there's an insanely difficult question during Answer the Call. I take questions from people just like you from around the world about their problems, opportunities, challenges, or if they simply need advice. My daughter Michaela guides the conversations as we hopefully help people navigate their lives. All right, fire away.
- [01:12]
Michaela Peterson
Over the next hour, we're going to hit on two topics, bullying and technology, which often go hand in hand. So the first guy we have is John in Arizona.
- [01:23]
Jordan Peterson
Hey, John.
- [01:24]
John
Good afternoon, Dr. Peterson. I'm John, I'm in Northern Arizona. And thank you for having us today.
- [01:31]
Jordan Peterson
It's my pleasure. I'm very interested to hear your question.
- [01:34]
John
Yes. My son Anthony is overweight and he's approaching morbid obesity. This all started when we lived in Utah. As he gained more and more weight, his friends used to tease him and ridicule him. It was pretty horrible. He took the rejection very hard. So my question is, how do you repair this kind of damage? He's 21, approaching 22 status, stays in his room most of the time, lost in video games and that kind of technology. And it's, it's kind of like living with a heroin addict. It's, I, I get as sick as he does, trying to steer him and control him. And I just feel lost as a parent and I don't know how to heal him. I don't know how to heal me. I don't, I don't know how to heal us. So.
- [02:24]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah. Okay. Well, the first thing I feel compelled to say is that, and this isn't exactly the psychological issue is that, you know, my family, my daughter in particular, Michaela, has battled with health problems, very serious health problems, her whole life. And one of the things that we've discovered that's very strange and odd, but that has been verified now by thousands of people, is that a carnivore diet will Strip weight off people so fast that it's absolutely beyond comprehension. And so I would feel remiss in my obligations if I didn't lay that out as a potential practical solution. And you know, that's a long term issue. I guess what I would say more on the forgetting about diet. On the practical side, although there are obviously health concerns as well as social concerns that are relevant here. I would say what is it that you, I would want to find out what you envision for your son and what he envisions. Like we, we know that the situation that you're both facing at the moment is not optimal by any stretch of the imagination. You guys need a joint plan that you agree on, on what would be better. And I, I like people. Human beings by their nature are visionary creatures as we lay out a structure that we wish to make real in the future and we move towards that. Otherwise we're the puppets of our surrounding or the victims of forces that are beyond our control. Vision is the alternative to manipulation and subjugation. Vision is the alternative to slavery and tyranny. Your son is not living a life that is sustainable and productive. No doubt by his own account and certainly by yours as an interested and concerned parent. It would be helpful to help him develop a plan for where he wants to be in five years and for you, for, for him to help you understand what would be best for him from you. You know, because I could imagine his attitude is something like, get off my back, dad, and leave me alone. And you know, fair enough. He's got health problems, he's got social problems, he's isolated. And you can understand that his attitude could well be, don't bug me. However, things are not going in a good direction. And so your conundrum is, well, you have to, what are you going to do? Ignore it and let things deteriorate across time? That's not helpful. And so you guys are in a position where you need to develop a plan and it needs to be one that you're both on board with. And that's going to take some very difficult discussion to convince him. I guess I would start with questions, you know, and because questions rather than statements are a much more effective way to suggest and intervene and, but they have to be non manipulative, you know, they have to be genuine questions. So if your son came and saw me, I would say like, first of all, well, how are you reacting to your current circumstances? And then you want to listen. It's like, well, this is problematic, and this is problematic, but it's like I'm defending myself by hiding. And I don't know what else to do about that. You need to lay out the territory and then you have to ask, well, if this could be rectified, what would a rectification look like? You know, do you want friends? Do you want an intimate relationship? How are you going to pursue your future goals? Do you have any future goals? What do you see as the solution to this? How as a father, you could ask him as well. How do you want me to conduct myself when I see that you're ensconced in a world of misery in a manner that's going to make the future worse than the present? If I love you, I can't ignore that. But I don't want to torture you to death and add to your misery. So what do you, what do you want from me? Given your understanding as well that I can't just stand by and watch you go to hell in a handbasket. And so can I. Yes, you can.
- [07:21]
Michaela Peterson
Please do this one. That sucks.
- [07:24]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah.
- [07:25]
Michaela Peterson
So first of all, and I think a lot of chronically ill, I think every chronically ill person, including people suffering with obesity, are blamed for their health problems. That, that's like number one, not only are you sick, but it's your fault. And then they're left in this position where they don't know the solution. And that's not, that's not fun at all. So, like what I would say, like, my husband lost £300 doing the carnivore diet. It's not a joke, it's not a fad diet. It's an actual like keto good looking person now.
- [08:00]
Jordan Peterson
It's quite remarkable.
- [08:01]
Michaela Peterson
And it's not. You don't have to starve yourself. I would probably, if I was them trying to get on board with trying the diet as a family. Like, hey, we're on your side. This isn't your fault. American foods are hyper palatable. Everybody eats carbs. Some people have a harder time stopping eating them than other people and we don't even know why. So first of all, it's too bad you were bullied.
- [08:24]
Jordan Peterson
Yep.
- [08:25]
Michaela Peterson
And second of all, it's not your fault. But third of all, you can do something about it and let's just all try it as a family for like a couple of months. He's probably depressed. It's not the video games that are the problem. I would say it's the physical ailments and probably depression and brain fog that are drawing him towards video games.
- [08:46]
Jordan Peterson
Right. That's a Very important additional concern because the fact of his obesity is a reflection of an inability to manage a high carbohydrate, high sugar diet, which a.
- [08:57]
Michaela Peterson
Lot of people have.
- [08:58]
Jordan Peterson
Well. Right. And it's clearly the case that many forms of depression are inflammatory.
- [09:04]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah.
- [09:04]
Jordan Peterson
And are brought about by exactly that kind of diet. I like the family approach idea.
- [09:09]
Michaela Peterson
We're on your team.
- [09:10]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah. I should also say, you know, it took me a long time to eradicate all quick judgment from my observations of people that were obese because it's very easy to judge. And I've become completely convinced that the best way of thinking about it is that it's a situation induced illness.
- [09:32]
Michaela Peterson
Oh, yeah.
- [09:33]
Jordan Peterson
It's like, it's like we're, we're wired genetically to gorge on high carbohydrate, high sugar foods because in our ancestral environment they were rare. And so when you came across honey, you just ate all of it because maybe you're not going to find any for the next five years.
- [09:50]
Michaela Peterson
They also set up scientists to manufacture foods so they, that people could stop eating them.
- [09:56]
Jordan Peterson
Right. So they would.
- [09:57]
Michaela Peterson
So they're built like that. So no wonder you can't stop eating them.
- [10:00]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, yeah.
- [10:01]
Michaela Peterson
And I don't think, you know, you need to go on a diet or you need to change the way you eat. It puts the blame on the person and it doesn't even give them a plan.
- [10:09]
Jordan Peterson
Well, and diets don't work because a diet is food restriction. And the evidence is quite clear. If you restrict and then stop restricting because you can't maintain that forever, you gain back the weight you lost and more.
- [10:24]
Michaela Peterson
Oh no, it's terrible.
- [10:25]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, it's not good. And the advantage to this carnivore diet approach or keto approach is that you can eat as much as you want. You don't, you can be satiated.
- [10:33]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah. I also can't tell you like, I had juvenile rheumatoid arthritis from the age of two and I didn't have, I didn't have obesity issues. I gained weight when I went away to college because then I started eating pizza and beer and delicious terrible foods and, and it really impacted my mental health. But I cannot explain how much this diet has changed my life. Like I was on something like eight medications for psychological health and then immune suppressants, antibiotics, sleeping medications so I could sleep painkillers for the arthritis. Like I was a complete mess. The other thing that's helpful too is like your kid isn't very old. He's 21. That's. I turned around my health. When I was 23, I needed to get older and smarter and I actually needed to get old enough to recognize that my health issues were going to kill me. And I don't think I reached that point. And it was obvious I didn't reach that point until I was 23. But I know a lot of younger people who've done the carnivore diet. Like my husband started a keto diet when he was 17 and that's when he lost £300. Like he did it on the keto diet. But the carnivore diet is like, it's easier, you don't get cravings, it's hard to transition onto. But once you're on it, you don't even want those other foods. And I think he'll start dropping weight so fast that he'll be like, okay, wow. Yeah, let's keep doing this.
- [11:59]
Jordan Peterson
Yep.
- [11:59]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah. Okay, next question. Yeah, that was a good one. That's a hopeful one. It's sad, but it's hopeful.
- [12:05]
Jordan Peterson
Yep. So called Peterson Academy. Peterson Academy. Peterson Academy. It's called Peterson Academy.
- [12:12]
Peterson Academy.
- [12:13]
If you want an actual education with hand selected professors from top universities around.
- [12:19]
The world, bringing the best professors together, making sure they're not censored in any way, giving them the audience and the remuneration and appreciation they deserve.
- [12:26]
Michaela Peterson
And you were true to your word.
- [12:27]
Jordan Peterson
You gave me absolute intellectual autonomy. I have had it through every course.
- [12:31]
We figure we can offer people a high quality university level education for under $2,000. Well, congratulations, Jordan. It's honestly brilliant. Can't wait to enroll myself. I'll be doing this that straight after this. FJo pretty bad.
- [12:50]
Michaela Peterson
Up next we have Victoria in Louisiana.
- [12:53]
Jordan Peterson
Hello Victoria. Hi.
- [12:55]
Victoria
Thank you so much for taking my call. So this is my question. Our 8 year old son is kind, loving and socially observant. He is also very sensitive, especially in regards to his appearance and his performance. He is taller and heavier than his siblings and most peers and has been called fat by a few friends. How can we as parents encourage a healthy lifestyle, knowing when or if to focus on weight without creating an eating disorder or hyper fixation on his outward appearance?
- [13:25]
Jordan Peterson
Well, I guess some of the discussion that we already had is relevant with regards to stabilization of diet. Is that moving your family's eating pattern to a lower carbohydrate load would be useful. And you know, your comment with the last questioner was that this has to be a family affair and I believe that's the case because eating is a.
- [13:48]
Michaela Peterson
Communal activity and you don't want to isolate a kid. And just cutting, cutting processed foods can make a big difference. If you just focus on a lot of meat, fruit and vegetables, try to get rid of the grains and processed foods, that'll probably help them out. And I wouldn't say like again, that it's his fault. We're kind of set up in society right now to eat hyper palatable foods. And most people, if weight gain doesn't hit them young, it hits them eventually. Nobody escapes it unless they have a low carb.
- [14:19]
Jordan Peterson
Well, we also know that there are radical individual differences in the degree to which people pack on weight. So for example, Pacific Islanders, island people are, have gone through periods of food deprivation. Their cultures very radically in their evolutionary history. And so island people tend to pack on weight like mad. And so the Polynesians, for example, on a North American diet, they just balloon out no time flat. And so there is wide individual variability in the proclivity to put on weight. And it's very important. I really do think it's crucial to stop making it a issue of lack of willpower or morality. First of all, you can't fight your hunger. Good luck with that. Your hunger will win. So if you're on a diet and you're not satiated, you're going to cheat, or when you stop the diet, you'll return to your old eating habits. You have to change the way you eat. And that's very difficult and it's very radical, but it's unbelievably useful. And then I would also say he's sensitive about, about his appearance. More sensitive than normal. That's the other issue.
- [15:27]
Michaela Peterson
Maybe he's conscientious. It's possible that might be a good thing.
- [15:31]
Jordan Peterson
It might be, it might be a good thing. And it might be a consequence of, of some higher levels of negative emotion as well. And so what would I do with a, with someone who's, who's more sensitive than. He was eight, was that right?
- [15:47]
Michaela Peterson
Sorry, he's eight.
- [15:48]
Jordan Peterson
He's eight. Yeah, I guess I would. This is one way of inoculating people against typical bullying responses is to work out a description of all the bullying tricks and phrases and to have the person develop a defense for them.
- [16:10]
Michaela Peterson
Right, so something jokey.
- [16:11]
Jordan Peterson
Yep, something jokey. But at least, at least to expose yourself to it. Like if you, if someone calls you.
- [16:18]
Michaela Peterson
Fat, at least I have a brain.
- [16:20]
Jordan Peterson
What? Right, right. What, what should your response be? Your son needs help developing strategies for dealing with the most common bullying situations and phrases, and you'll have to get from him what people say that hurts his feelings. And then you'll have to work with him to develop strategies of verbal response or attitude that. That help him prevail in the face of that. Now what you don't want him to do is to get down on himself, to isolate, to be irritable, to cry or lash out, because that'll just amplify the bullying. Like what bullies do. Like, first of all, we should understand that every child gets bullied on the basis of their peculiarities. And so if you don't have any obvious aberration in your appearance, well, the bullies will just make one up. They'll. They'll give you a nickname that's derisive. Or they'll, they'll. They'll come up with something that's like a rhyme on your name. Like they're going to find something. And what they're looking for is an emotional reaction. Like in the bully. Bully victim literature, you see that there are stable bullies and there are stable bully victims. And the stable bully victim boys tend to respond emotionally when they're picked on. If they can develop a, like a defensive strategy, say, which. And humor can be very useful in that regard.
- [17:53]
Michaela Peterson
Pretending you aren't bothered.
- [17:54]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, well, well, like, that's a simple one. Better even than pretending is to practice not being bothered to the point where you're actually not bothered, because what the bully wants is a reaction. And he'll go around poking at people till he finds someone that reacts, and then that's the person that gets picked on. So your son needs to be trained in resilience. And, you know, one of the things you might even try with him is to make a list of the insults and the, the insults that have been used against him and the insults that he's afraid of and practice delivering them to him so that he can learn to be resilient in their presence. Oof. Yeah, you can do that. You can do that. With his cooperation, though.
- [18:43]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah.
- [18:43]
Jordan Peterson
What are you going to do if someone calls you fat? What should you do? Do you want to get upset? Like, how does that, how does that work for you if you get upset? Does that help? Well, they hurt my feelings. It's like.
- [18:53]
Michaela Peterson
Well, pretend they don't is a good place to start.
- [18:56]
Jordan Peterson
Practice. Practice acting as if they don't. That's so. See, because the pretending you. There's an element of deception in there. There can be an element of self.
- [19:06]
Michaela Peterson
Deception in that, though, when you like, it's hard to. I don't. Didn't you got Bullied, Right. You talked all the time.
- [19:12]
Jordan Peterson
Everybody gets bullied. Everybody. Everybody gets bullied.
- [19:15]
Michaela Peterson
But some people are bullied more than others.
- [19:17]
Jordan Peterson
Yes, they show.
- [19:18]
Michaela Peterson
Usually. They're usually the ones that show weakness. Honestly.
- [19:22]
Jordan Peterson
They're the ones who respond emotionally. Yeah. And so practicing stoicism in the face of provocation is a useful strategy. And you can help your child learn to do that. Yep.
- [19:39]
Michaela Peterson
You. When. This is a funny story.
- [19:42]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah.
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Michaela Peterson
Kindergarten, I think you told us, go find the biggest kid in the class and punch him. And he said this. Weren't you in front of other parents?
- [19:53]
Jordan Peterson
Oh, yeah. They were shocked. No, I said, I think. I think you find the biggest, ugliest kid in the. In the classroom and then hit him on the back of the head with the toy.
- [20:00]
Michaela Peterson
Oh, wow. That's way more in depth and specific.
- [20:03]
Jordan Peterson
That was a joke. Obviously, we didn't do that. No, I know you didn't do that.
- [20:07]
Michaela Peterson
But in grade two, this girl came out of the bathroom. I remember I was standing against the wall, leaning against the wall, and kicked me. Yeah, Just random grade two girl.
- [20:15]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah.
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Michaela Peterson
And I turned around and I kicked her back as hard as I could.
- [20:18]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah.
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Michaela Peterson
That was it.
- [20:19]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah.
- [20:19]
Michaela Peterson
That was the interaction. And she was the bully. Right. It was like, kick.
- [20:22]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah.
- [20:23]
Michaela Peterson
Kick harder.
- [20:24]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah.
- [20:24]
Michaela Peterson
It was like, oh, okay. Not gonna kick you anymore.
- [20:27]
Jordan Peterson
Right. Well, there is some real utility also in helping your children learn to defend themselves and to discussing very carefully with them the conditions under which they are allowed to. Or also morally required to defend themselves or sometimes to defend other people.
- [20:46]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah.
- [20:47]
Jordan Peterson
And so you need a philosophy of that. So if someone is picking on you, if someone hits you and you're a kid, what's the right response? Well, the people who are anti violence, let's say, you should go tell a teacher. It's like, do you remember what it's like to be a kid going to tell the teacher? That can be social suicide. Right. Because it indicates to the bullies in particular that you can't handle your own affairs. That. And that you'll rat them out. That's not good.
- [21:18]
Michaela Peterson
Although I do think pretending or actually just being unaffected by it, like, I don't care what you say.
- [21:28]
Jordan Peterson
Yes.
- [21:28]
Michaela Peterson
Like that'll deter bully.
- [21:30]
Jordan Peterson
Yes, yes.
- [21:31]
Michaela Peterson
They're not interested in bothering someone. That's like.
- [21:34]
Jordan Peterson
So Dan always, who's a Scandinavian expert on bullying, and he reduced the incidence of bullying in scandinavia by about 50%. So he's quite. And there's a book which. Which you could take a look at, everybody who's listening, called Bullying what We Know and what we can do about it. Pretty blunt. Book always did the best analysis of bullies. He thought of them as prototypical fascists, which was why he was concerned with them. And I think that that's correct. Always. His analysis of the bully dynamic is dead on. And one of the things he also helped schools, parents and children work through is the conditions under which you are allowed to seek adult authority if you're a child. So his, his definition of bullying was that bullying was aggression utilized when there was a mismatch in power. So if there's two kids of approximately equal physical size and stature, let's say in development, and they're having an altercation, that's not bullying. Bullying is when there's three 10 year olds against an 8 year old. Right. There's clear imbalance of power. And then if you observe that as a child, you have the moral right to intervene on behalf of the person who's being bullied with an adult, mostly because you're serving the cause of justice. And so obvious was one of these dim witted, like hyper agreeable social worker type interveners who thinks all violence is wrong. It's like that's actually not true. Violence in defense of yourself or of your principles or of someone weaker is often admirable. Your children have to learn how to, they have to learn how to think that through, you know, and you know your response. For example, when you got kicked, what would you. We say in the ideal there'd be no violence. It's like, well, that's not real helpful.
- [23:23]
Michaela Peterson
When your daughter kicking me.
- [23:25]
Jordan Peterson
Right. Well, of course, of course you weren't. Of course you weren't.
- [23:29]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah.
- [23:29]
Jordan Peterson
And so that stopped it. And we, you and I and Julian as well, like I practice teaching you how to punch so that you could throw a punch. And we discussed the times when that was necessary. Right. So you remember that?
- [23:46]
Michaela Peterson
I do indeed. It hurt. I had arthritis.
- [23:48]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, right.
- [23:49]
Michaela Peterson
Everything hurt. Childhood was very sad. Every time I talk about it with my husband, he's like, it's like bowling. Yeah, I used to bowl. My thumb used to get stuck in the bowling ball. It's like, why is everything you say depressing? Like, well, it's funny now you're actually.
- [24:02]
Jordan Peterson
A remarkably happy child, so.
- [24:05]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah, well, good y. Partly thanks to you, I'm sure.
- [24:12]
Jordan Peterson
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- [25:02]
Michaela Peterson
Next caller, next caller. On the line now is Marilyn in Florida.
- [25:08]
Jordan Peterson
Hello, Marilyn.
- [25:09]
Marilyn
Hello. Thank you for taking my question. My husband and I are parents to two young adult ladies, 18 and 24 years old. And when we're asked for guidance about, about dating, we feel like the generation gap right now is more like a generation chasm. For example, social media, how the people connect today, different sexual norms. There are situations that have been brought up that we never encountered when we were in the dating life. We're often hard pressed to offer really good advice. I was wondering if you would have any thoughts on that.
- [25:57]
Jordan Peterson
Well, there's an insanely difficult question. Well, this is everything I say is going to get me in trouble in this, on this regard. So. Yeah, yeah. So the first thing I would say is that alcohol is a dating danger that's always underestimated in its magnitude. It isn't unreasonable to point out that there would be zero date rape essentially if alcohol wasn't involved. And so that's, that's a good thing to know when you're, and then I would say as well when you're talking to your daughters that their right and obligation to say no should be exemplified, should be encouraged and strengthened. And here's why I believe this to be the case. So women cross culturally are hypergamous. It's a deep characteristic of femininity in among human beings. It's not the case for all of our primate relatives, by the way, women mate up and across and up hierarchies, cross culturally. They like men that are about four years older. And so you might ask yourself, what's the female mating strategy? Human female mating strategy. And the human female mating strategy is to watch men compete with one another and peel from the top. And it's a brilliant strategy because what women are essentially doing is thinking while the best man will win in competitions with Other men. And she sits back and watches and picks the guy who emerges victorious. And that's a great strategy. And that's. And, and, and so men compete for status in large part to attract women. The, the status that men have among men, the most viable marker of that status is their competence. And men will grant other competent men status. And then women are fortunate because they can use that as a marker for finding a competent man. The question is, what confers status among women in the opinions of men? And that's easy. It's their ability to say no. And so no is a superpower for women. And because the, the typical high status guy, for example, so a desirable guy who faces no is either going to depart because he's interested in exploitation, in which case good riddance, or he's going to think, huh, what's up with her? You know, I'm a high status guy. And she says no. Well, that indicates that she's, that's her indication of status. Now I should also point out, here's something to talk to your daughters about that's very concrete. So imagine there are two mating strategies. One is short term, so that's free love, sexual gratification, um, that's the whole kind of dark hippie ethos from the 1960s. And then there's the more, there's the mating strategy that's more oriented towards long term committed relationships, which you might well define as marriage. Okay, so now imagine that you do a personality assessment of the men who pursue those variables, those variant strategies. So is, who are the guys that are after short term sexual gratification? Well, we know who they are. They're dark tetrad types, they're Machiavellian, so they use their language to manipulate. They're psychopathic, they have a tilt towards psychopathy. So they're predatory parasites, they're narcissistic, they're only concerned about themselves. And just to top it all off, they're sadistic. And so when, when women participate in that easy sexual revolution, let's say that's short term pleasure focused, they throw themselves into the hands of the worst men. And so it's much better to play a long term game. Now if your daughters are having a hard time finding someone who wants to play along, well then I would say they're well advised to not be unhappy. That men who are irritated because they don't get what they want right now have left because that is not a person you want to be around.
- [30:55]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah, for sure.
- [30:56]
Jordan Peterson
No, yeah, for sure, for sure. The, the, the, all of the all of the evidence converges on this very solidly.
- [31:08]
Michaela Peterson
I have like just a loop in technology. Yeah, so this is. I went through this kind of thing 10 years ago, so it's still kind of recent. And the dating experience has changed since then, but not, not a ton. I would say that you've told me this before and this was very helpful. Figure out what your kids want as a life plan. Like this is probably more relevant for your 24 year old because your 18 year old is 18. But does she want to get married? Does she want to have kids young? Does she want to be a stay at home mom? Does she want to work at the same time? Figure out those serious questions and make sure they know the answers to those questions. Then they can utilize technology. So what I found helpful is you can download a dating app. So back in my day, it was Tinder. Now there's hordes of them. But Tinder was pretty rough back then too. But you can meet people online, generate a rapport to see if you get along. Then you can say, I want to go for a coffee date. So coffee date doesn't have the alcohol problem. A half an hour coffee date, you can tell right away, especially if you don't have alcohol to numb yourself, if you dislike or like the person. And then you can get up and leave, which is totally fine. But if you like the person, you can pretty much have the conversation about what you want in life right off the bat. And if that scares that person away, then it's good that they're gone anyway. So you might as well encourage them to go out and meet people. They might have to go on like 20 of these coffee days to meet someone who goes, hey, we want the same light, like same things in life. And then you can take it from there.
- [32:46]
Jordan Peterson
That's very. Okay. There's a bunch of things about that that are very important. So talk to your daughters precisely as you said, about what they want.
- [32:53]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah, you taught me that. Make a list of what you want.
- [32:56]
Jordan Peterson
Precisely that. You do that when you're shopping for a house, you know, what do you want? Okay, so now you know. Well, now you have a criteria by which to judge potential partners. They either want that or they don't. If they don't, well, maybe they have a better offer. Probably not, but maybe they do. And if they don't, it's like, don't be upset that they leave. You're thrilled that they leave because the last thing you want is the wrong person. Okay, so that's the first thing. Talk to your daughters. So they have a plan that gives them a template for acceptance and rejection. Encourage them to reject. Right. Not arbitrarily and meanly. And, and, and maybe even to look beyond their immediate reaction at things more fundamental like shared goals. Right. Because there are people you meet that you're not necessarily so attracted to immediately, but you learn to like them. And that's because they're of good character. So that shared vision of the future is extremely important. Then the next thing is slow, safe situations to mutually get to know each other. And certainly the initial coffee date in the daytime, somewhere public. Yes, exactly. And then care with each step forward. Here's another rule of thumb for women, I would say, and I also think it's true for men, but it's more desperately necessary for women. Don't do anything physically with anyone that you wouldn't have a conversation with them about. Right. Because you might say, well, at what rate should we pursue intimacy? Well, if you're pursuing physical intimacy before you can have a conversation about what you're doing, you're probably putting the cart before the horse.
- [34:40]
Michaela Peterson
So that's for sure.
- [34:43]
Jordan Peterson
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- [35:50]
On to the next.
- [35:52]
Michaela Peterson
Next we have a more general question about AI and we're joined by Robert in California.
- [35:59]
Robert
So let me ask my question. First of all, thank you for having me here. My question is a quick two parter. The first part, they're both actually about LLMs like ChatGPT and stuff like that. I was wondering, first of all, whether you use them yourself and if so, what you make of the experience and if you don't, why you don't. And second of all, I was wondering what you thought the social consequences of their widespread adoption would be. Do you think people are basically going to offload lots of their thinking to these devices, or do you think there's going to be some kind of rebellion?
- [36:27]
Jordan Peterson
Okay, the first. Let's answer the first part of that question. I use LLMs all the time. I use Chat GPT, I use Grok, and I have a system that one of my compatriots built with me and for me that's based on the King James Bible and that also incorporates a bunch of the things that I've written and lectured on that I can use as a conversational partner when I'm trying to figure out what I think. They are insanely helpful. They're like having a research team at your fingertips. You have to torture the woker models ChatGpt and Grok to some degree into telling the truth by specifying your questions very carefully and laying down rather impolite restrictions. But you probably have to do that with people when you're trying to get the truth out of them too, rather than some just polite and agreeable response. I think they're stunningly remarkable machines and they've been ridiculously useful for me while I'm writing. So I use them all the time when I'm writing. I have like three LLMs open and I'm just conferring with them all the time. I asked them for advice on how I'm formulating paragraphs. They're ridiculously useful. Now, having said that, I have this program that I've worked on with my son called Essay, and we're trying to use Essay to teach people to write. And when you teach them to write, you're teaching them to think. And when you're learning to write and think, you're learning how to move your way through the world without falling into a pit. And if you offload that all to a LLM and then you're just a hollow shell and you have no idea who you are, where you're going, or what you want. And that's a huge danger. I mean, I was just talking to my son the other day about his experiences communicating about ESSAY in general, and he talked about a situation that One of his friends was involved in where they were taking a course where they were required to write essays and to give feedback to one another. And everyone who was taking the course used chat GPT to write the essays and to provide the feedback. And so all you really got from the course was bots communicating with one another. And so people can use the LLMs to evade their responsibility and to lie and to deceive and to look smarter than they are. And that's just like, that's just rife with catastrophe. So I would also say that the, the LLMs in my experience have been very useful in precise proportion to how carefully you specify the question and assess the answer. And so they can also teach you to ask extremely careful and well formulated questions and to hone your, your capacity for critical thinking. Look, it depends on your intent, right? If your intent is to rely on technology to look smarter than you are and to gain a bunch of undeserved rewards in the short term, it's going to be a complete bloody catastrophe. If your aim is to sharpen your thinking, to learn to interrogate, to question properly, and to make the sharpest and most well informed arguments you possibly can, then that's open to you too. And I don't think that's much different than most technologies is like the more powerful the technology, the more you can use it for good and the more you can use it for evil. And one of the things I've noted for and tried to teach people for 20 years is as our technological prowess increases, the consequences of our morality or immortality or immorality expand. And that's the curse and the benefit of technology. Now there's an additional issue that we should address too, which is the alignment problem. How do we know that the LLMs are operating according to the proper moral principles when they're formulating their answers?
- [40:42]
Michaela Peterson
We just assume they're not.
- [40:43]
Jordan Peterson
Well, well, part of that is, part of that can be dealt with by extremely careful questioning and, and critical thought. But this is also why we've been experimenting with our own large language models. Because my guess is, is that we're going to have to train them on something like the Western canon for them to be aligned properly. Like there's not much difference in training an LLM and educating a young person. Like, if you train the LLM on broad consensus across every possible source of information, you're going to tilt them towards a present focused view and something that looks quite woke. So, and that's exactly the same with young people. So what do you do about that. Well, a classic humanities education, a classic education in the, in the deep works of the Western tradition provides them with a defense against ideological possession. Well, why would it be any different with the LLMs I want, and I've talked to people who develop LLMs, although we haven't made enough headway on this front yet to train systems on classic works and to make that the core of their ethos. And so, you know, with any luck, we'll work that out over the next five or six years.
- [42:13]
Michaela Peterson
That's what we're trying to do with Peterson Academy. Yes, We've talked about this a lot, is people are probably gonna be split into two camps. There's gonna be the people that know how to utilize LLMs because it reduces your work, depending on what you do, to like 10% or eliminates your job. It's a crazy difference. It is not Google. Google. I thought Google was great, just being able to Google. I was like, the Internet, we all have access to the Internet. That's crazy. You can research basically whatever you want. And Grok, I use primarily grok just squishes three days of research into like 15 seconds. It's crazy.
- [42:51]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, it is.
- [42:52]
Michaela Peterson
So if people aren't using it, they need to start using it and learn how to use it because you're going to be left behind. That's what I think.
- [42:58]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah.
- [42:58]
Michaela Peterson
So you need to incorporate that. But there was this funny. I'll send it to you after. But it was this video going around Instagram and it's this guy and he's like on his chair like a monkey going like E E, like typing things into Grok and then. Or, or an LLM and it's spitting out a really nicely worded email. And then he sends that and then he gets a response and he's like all happy about it and goes like eee and types it in. Unfortunately, I feel like there's probably going to be a group of people that use it to enhance themselves and a group of people that won't learn how to write or communicate that'll just use it, which is. That's the dangerous thing.
- [43:37]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, well. And your comments about Peterson Academy are relevant with regard to classical education. If you're going to use an LLM intelligently, you better be well informed and morally grounded properly. But, but of course that's the case because the more powerful tools you have at your disposal, the more your stupidity will magnify itself in consequence of the misuse of those tools. You know, and I've known this for years, one of the reasons I got attracted to Carl Jung's thought was because in the aftermath of World War II and our development of the hydrogen bomb, he pointed out that the true danger that confronted humanity wasn't the bomb itself. It was the ideological foolishness that would lead us to use it. And that the development of the psyche, the development of wisdom, was as, as, as your technological power increases, the requirement for you to be wise increases proportionately. Well, yeah, that's even more the case now. And I think the LLMs have really, they've been another tremendous example of the necessity of that moral grounding. And that's a very. You find that moral grounding in consequence of being properly educated. And that is what we're trying to do on Peterson Academy. Last question, last question.
- [45:10]
Michaela Peterson
So up last, we have a recorded message from Diego in paraguay. Cool.
- [45:17]
Diego
Hi Dr. Peterson, thank you very much for this opportunity to ask a question that is very important for me. How can parents raise children to value depth, purpose and delayed gratification in an age dominated by short form content, endless distraction and dopamine chasing media? What practical steps can we take to protect and prepare our children so they aren't psychologically hijacked by the algorithm before they even have a sense of who they are?
- [45:52]
Jordan Peterson
So the most terrifying element of the algorithm, and you can really see this in the degeneration of YouTube, especially over the last two years, is that the algorithm maximizes for grip of attention. And fair enough, because why wouldn't you want to be given things that you want to attend to? But the problem comes as the maximization of grip of attention becomes shorter and shorter duration. Right. Like pathological addiction is actually the hijacking of attention by short term considerations. So the shorter term across which your attention span is being manipulated, the more pathological the outcome. And you can see a race to the bottom. You in the social media world and TikTok probably really kicked that off.
- [46:41]
Michaela Peterson
You're not a fan of Tik Tok. Swipe swiped.
- [46:45]
Jordan Peterson
Swipe right, right, right. 15 second bursts. Right. And so, okay, so how do you fight against that? Well, look, you fight against that the same way you fight against immaturity as you socialize your children. What you're actually doing when you socialize children is you expand the time frame over which they calculate reward. Right? So they're able to maintain attentional focus for longer and longer spans of time while they're doing effortful things that culminate in a delayed reward. It's the definition of maturity. So how do you practice that with them? Well, you listen to them, that's helpful. That's why regular dinner times, meal times together are very useful without phones so that people communicate. And you can encourage your children to attend for long periods of time by listening to them formulate their thoughts and engaging in conversation with them. You can do the same thing by reading to them. Right. I mean this is dependent on the individual child. But there are four year old kids who can listen to a story for an hour and who can handle a pretty complex juvenile novel by the time they're four. Interact with your children in a manner that requires sustained attention for longer and longer periods of time. And so board games can do that too, especially more complex board games. So you want to engage as a family in sophisticated enterprises that don't fragment attention down to the smallest possible unit.
- [48:40]
Michaela Peterson
And there's tech now too you can use. So I found this machine. There's some practical things too. So I have a seven year old, she has a phone already because she's split between two houses, otherwise she wouldn't have a phone. I would say delay the phone for sure. I haven't given my kids screens before the age of three, like including movies and things. Just because you can see a 2 year old glued to a screen and you're like, that cannot be good for their brain. So like no screens. There's this player, it's called a YODO player and it's this little machine that little kids can operate by themselves and you get these cards that are either music or stories and you can stick the card in the machine, a little graphic shows up, but it's not a screen. It's like some lights that move around a tiny bit. It's not hyper stimulating. And then they can listen to stories and things. So just as a practical tech piece, I really like the yodo. And then for hyper stimulation too we use kind of a Montessori approach. Just it's just limited toys. Don't overrun them with toys, just a couple. And you can swap them out every couple of weeks. So they get new toys every couple of weeks. But I think avoiding the hyperstimulation when they're really little helps a lot. And then delaying like you just talked to Jonathan Haidt, right? Delaying social media, delaying phones, delaying screens.
- [50:04]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah. And Height has talked a lot about too about the fact that many states, I think he said 13 states already, maybe it's more than that. Have decided to make schools phone free zones. Good. Yeah, Brazil has done that and many more states are planning to do it.
- [50:21]
Michaela Peterson
All the way up to grade 12. Just no phones.
- [50:24]
Jordan Peterson
That's my understanding. No phones in schools.
- [50:27]
Michaela Peterson
That's good.
- [50:28]
Jordan Peterson
It seems like the right thing to do. The evidence for its utility is not in yet, but. But that constant fragmented attention. The fundamental problem is that the, the AI algorithms are going to optimize for the grip of short term attention. And that's just, that's there's no difference between that and addiction. That, that's just addiction by a different definition. And so encourage your children to pursue processes, pursue activities that require the investment of attention and do that jointly. So.
- [51:09]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah.
- [51:10]
Jordan Peterson
Yep.
- [51:10]
Michaela Peterson
Well, thank you, dad. That was fun.
- [51:14]
Jordan Peterson
Thank you to everybody who asked questions. Much appreciated and thanks, Mick. Yep, it was great.
- [51:19]
Michaela Peterson
Thank you guys so much for watching or listening. Today, hit the like and subscribe button so you can be sure to catch all the episodes. If you enjoy these answers to these questions, it's us answering the call. We'll have many more soon. Thank you.
- [51:35]
Jordan Peterson
Do you have a question you'd like us to explore? Share it with us at the link in the video's description and let's face life's challenges together.