Democrats Have Made Patriotism a Partisan Issue

Summary

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The Josh Hammer Show

Episode: Democrats Have Made Patriotism a Partisan Issue
Date: June 19, 2026
Host: Josh Hammer (Newsweek Senior Editor-at-Large)

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Episode Overview

Josh Hammer tackles the troubling trend of patriotism becoming a deeply partisan issue in America. Drawing on recent polling and cultural analysis, Hammer exposes how national pride is now significantly more common among conservatives than liberals, analyzes what this means for national unity, and connects it to the rise of the left-wing movements within the Democratic Party. In the second half, Hammer discusses the latest developments in Middle Eastern geopolitics, especially the Iran memorandum of understanding (MOU) and U.S.-Israel-Iran relations, with expert guest Rich Goldberg. The episode concludes by tying together themes of gratitude, national purpose, and the importance of civic holidays, foreign alliances, and enduring lessons from Jewish tradition.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Stark Partisan Divide Over Patriotism

• Recent Polling Data
  • NBC News poll: Only 56% of Americans say they're extremely or very proud to be American ([02:00]).
  • Among those: 90% of Republicans express pride, but only 29% of Democrats do ([02:45]).
  • Context: In 2001, nearly 90% were proud; by 2017, it had already dropped to 75% ([03:00]).
• Interpretation
  • "Patriotism is not in good shape in America." – Josh Hammer ([02:38])
  • The sharp drop and partisan gap suggests national unity is worsening.
• Holiday Reflections
  • Discussion of Flag Day, Juneteenth, and the approach to America’s 250th Independence Day.
  • Juneteenth recognized as a worthy holiday, but Hammer sees its politicization as part of post-George Floyd "racial reckoning" ([01:30]).
  • Civic holidays are increasingly seen as apolitical days of rest or socializing, especially among Democrats, rather than celebrations of American ideals.

"So even on the basic question of what July 4th means to you, we have Republicans on one end saying celebrate America...and Democrats on the other end saying that it means more to them to have time with friends and family." – Josh Hammer ([04:01])

2. Meaning and Importance of Civic Holidays

• Hammer argues these holidays should have more substance—embodying gratitude and reverence for America:
  • Thanksgiving: About being thankful to God for the country’s blessings ([05:20]).
  • Independence Day: Prefer the term “Independence Day” over “July 4th,” as it highlights the nation’s founding ideals ([05:45]).

"These are the purpose of America's civic holidays. But more generally speaking...how do you maintain national unity in such a scenario?" – Josh Hammer ([06:20])

• Hammer considers the lack of gratitude as “ingratitude,” calling on Americans—especially Democrats—to recognize the structural blessings and liberties they enjoy ([07:15]).

3. The Uniqueness of American Partisan Patriotism

• In other nations, patriotism unites citizens across political divides (e.g., Japan, Israel), with left and right both displaying national symbols and pride ([08:15]).

• In the U.S., left-wing protests display rainbow or BLM flags but rarely the American flag: "You definitely will not see the American flag. If anything, you might see the American flag burning..." ([09:25])

• Hammer attacks what he sees as hyperbolic claims by some leftist politicians:

"There is not a single person who believes that the current treatment of the Rainbow Agenda here in America is equivalent to Jim Crow. That is an outrageous, outrageously insane thing to say." – Josh Hammer ([11:01])

4. International Affairs: Iran, Israel, and the MOU

• Shifts to discussing the day’s big international story: the proposed Iran-U.S. MOU and Israeli security ([13:15]).
• Context:
  • Recent violence from Hezbollah; ambiguity over the MOU signing; U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance’s criticisms of Israel ([13:30–15:20]).
  • Hammer questions the effectiveness and strategic value of the MOU, noting that Israel and Hezbollah are not parties to the agreement ([16:00]).
• Polling Insight:
  • MAGA Republicans prefer regime change in Iran over negotiated settlements ([17:21]).

interview with Rich Goldberg (FDD Senior Advisor)

• Goldberg’s Assessment of the MOU:

  • The Strait of Hormuz blockade is reportedly ended; Iranian oil is flowing ([19:19]).
  • There’s uncertainty about the scale and terms of sanctions relief and access to frozen Iranian assets ([22:23]).
  • The MOU may be non-binding, much like a business Letter of Intent; much depends on follow-through.

• Broader Perspective:

  • U.S./Israeli actions have devastated Iranian military capabilities and economic strength ([24:57]).
  • Key ongoing questions: Will Iran’s regime be allowed to recover? Is the deal a “band-aid” or a "tourniquet" that allows them to regroup? ([28:45])
  • Goldberg urges continuing pressure, warning against paying into an “extortion racket.”

"We should celebrate that. The US and Israel destroyed the [Iranian] missile program, destroyed the nuclear program, and now it's about making sure we don't allow the situation to hurt us in a strategic way..." – Rich Goldberg ([32:40])

5. The Energy Market and Political Calculations

• Oil market stability is framed as critical to economic health ([34:41]).
• Hammer suspects the MOU is at least partly driven by domestic U.S. political interests leading up to the November elections.

"Ultimately, I still do think that this was driven by domestic political calculations when it comes to November..." – Josh Hammer ([35:12])

6. U.S. Foreign Alliances: NATO in Focus

• Cites War Secretary Pete Hegseth’s criticism of NATO as a “paper tiger” in need of reform ([36:20]).
• The original purpose of NATO is argued as outdated post-Cold War; its new mission is unclear ([37:45]).
• Hammer doubts its contemporary relevance, questions who the true adversary is now (Russia, China?), and suggests NATO’s function needs reevaluation.

"What is the purpose of NATO? Why are we doing this? I just don't know the answer." – Josh Hammer ([39:30])

7. The Left, Political Power, and Patriotism

• Reports on the rise of Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) in urban politics, linking it back to declining patriotism among Democrats ([40:57]).
• Draws a line from Obama-era politics to current left-wing trends: “Barack Obama was woke before there was wokeism.” ([41:32])

8. Closing Reflections: Jewish Wisdom & Personal Responsibility

• Shares insights from the weekly Torah portion, Parsha Korach:
  • Korach’s downfall is about hubris and the virtue of humility ([43:00]).
  • The “sons of Korach” represent the possibility of repentance and forging a better path, offering a message on agency and renewal ([43:40]).

"We are not our parents. We are not our grandparents. We are all our own individuals. We are all made in our own image of God." – Josh Hammer ([44:30])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On July 4th’s purpose:

  • "If we are not celebrating this country, frankly, what is the purpose of all of our national holidays if we just use them as excuses to just schmooze and to catch up with our friends and to drink a beer and to grill?" – Josh Hammer ([04:33])

• On gratitude:

  • "There's a word for that. It's called an ingrate. Someone who is not grateful for the benefits that he or she demonstrably, clearly has received. Don't be an ingrate." – Josh Hammer ([07:21])

• On left-wing protests:

  • "Here in America, when you go to a left-wing protest, you don't typically see the American flag, do you? You definitely don't. If anything, you might see the American flag burning." – Josh Hammer ([09:25])

• On comparing LGBT rights today to Jim Crow:

  • "There is not a single person who believes that the current treatment of the Rainbow Agenda here in America is equivalent to Jim Crow. That is an outrageous, outrageously insane thing to say." ([11:01])

• On foreign policy & the Trump administration:

  • "It is not an overstatement to say that Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu have saved the world. They did." – Rich Goldberg ([31:40])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:00–06:30] – Polling and the partisan divide on patriotism
• [08:10–11:15] – Attitudes towards American symbols at protests, comparison to other countries' leftists
• [13:15–22:10] – Iran Memorandum of Understanding, immediate diplomatic and security context
• [24:57–33:30] – In-depth analysis of the MOU with Rich Goldberg
• [34:41–36:00] – Energy markets and political strategy behind current foreign policy
• [36:20–41:32] – U.S. alliances, critique of NATO, rise of the DSA, and Obama’s legacy
• [43:00–44:30] – Torah insights and closing messages on humility, repentance, and personal agency

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Episode Tone

• Direct, combative, and unapologetically opinionated
• Woven with cultural references, historical context, and personal anecdotes
• Heavy on conservative critique of the left, with emphasis on gratitude, national identity, and the need for clear purpose—both personally and as a nation

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This episode of The Josh Hammer Show offers an urgent reflection on the fracturing of patriotic sentiment along partisan lines, the challenges of forging national unity, and the complex stakes of today’s U.S. foreign policy in both rhetoric and real-world consequences.

Transcript

[A]

Grainger knows. When you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

[B]

Happy Juneteenth to all who celebrate. It's time for a look at how patriotism is faring in America. The short news is it's not faring well. It's actually gotten quite partisan. What does it say about where we're at, who we are, and where we possibly go from here as America turns 250 years old? I'm Josh Hammer, and this is the Josh Hammer Show. So it was Flag Day last Sunday. Flag Day happens to be the birthday of Donald Trump and also my father. On a personal note, Flag Day, essentially the Diet Coke version, if you will, of Independence Day. It is a holiday in its own right. And now you have this new federal holiday on the calendar, Juneteenth, part of our post. GEORGE floyd, Racial reckoning in America. Juneteenth is a perfectly fine day. The actual celebration of it refers to the final word, traveling for the emancipation of the slaves after the surrender of General Lee to General Guangzhou Grant at Appomatto's courthouse in Virginia. So based on physical geography and the fact that word traveled a lot slower back in the day, Texas was the furthest west of all of the old Confederate states. So it is recognized as the day on which slaves were freed in Texas. And now we have this as a national holiday. But this whole series of national historical holidays, from flag date to Juneteenth gearing up for the America 50 celebration on July 4th is a very opportune time to get our finger on the polls as to how American patriotism is faring. And to that end, there was a brand new poll that was just commissioned. It came out from NBC News. The short news, or the short answer, I should say, is that polling is pretty clear and the answer is quite dire. Patriotism is not in good shape in America. So overall, according to NBC News, in this very recent poll, 56% of Americans, 56% are either very or extremely proud of their. But listen to the partisan gap, 29% for Democrats say they're extremely or very proud. 90% of Republicans. But that overall top line number of 56% who are either extremely or very proud. Compare that to as recently as Donald Trump's first year in office during his first term back in 2017. Back then, that number of extremely or very proud American Patriots was 75% of the American populace. And even that number, 75%, that was actually a historical low at that time. If you want to keep on going back and back to when similar questions have been polled over the years, you can go all the way back to a gala poll in January of 2001 that showed the time that nearly 90% of Americans were extremely or very proud. So from January 2001, 90% to 2017, first year of Donald Trump goes down to 75%. And now it's gone down by roughly 20 points even since then to 56%. But again, this partisan gap is really, really something. So our pal Harry Enton over at cnn, the, the polling maestro over there has some new graphics and some new next level polling on this question. Let's go ahead and listen to Harry Anton over at cena. One of the most stunning divides that we have seen. You know, we're talking about polarization in politics. It even comes down to what you believe July 4th actually is like. What does July 4th mean to you? Celebrate America, friends and family time among Republicans, what do you see? You see the clear majority say it's a time to celebrate America. Sixty Democrats, however, the plurality disagree.

[C]

Look at that.

[B]

What do you see? Friends and family time at 42% versus just 24% who say that what it means most to them is to celebrate America. So even on the basic question of what July 4th means to you, we have Republicans on one end saying celebrate America, more of them say that, and Democrats on the other end saying that it means more to them to have time with friends and family. Okay, so this raises the obvious question as to what is the purpose of July 4th if we are not celebrating this country, frankly, what is the purpose of all of our national holidays if we just use them as excuses to just schmooze and to catch up with our friends and to drink a beer and to grill. I'm not saying that's not important. It is very, very important to take a pause and to breathe and to stop working and to rest. I do it one day out of every seven weeks cycle. It's called the Sabbath. And it's a very good idea. Charlie Kirk actually wrote a posthumous book that I'm currently reading right now about the importance of rest built into your weekly schedule. I'm not dismissing the importance of rest and all that, but when it comes to our national civic holidays, shouldn't they be about something more than just drinking a Coors Light or firing up a hamburger or two on the grill? And the answer is that of course they should be about much more. Thanksgiving should be about thanking the Creator, the Almighty, himself in heaven, for all of the abundant blessings that this country has been given. You can go back and look at the Thanksgiving proclamation that George Washington wrote all those years ago that was the purpose of Thanksgiving. Independence Day. It's called Independence Day. I prefer that nomenclature over the more, the more vague sounding July 4th for the very simple reason that we are celebrating independence. It's a good day to read the Declaration of Independence, to think about what the founding Fathers pledged when they vowed their lives, their honor, their fortune, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. They put it all on the line. These are the purpose of America's civic holidays. But more generally speaking, just zooming out even from them and focusing on this astonishing partisan divide whereby only 29% of Democrats, give or take, now, say that they are very or extremely proud to be Americans. How do you maintain national unity in such a scenario? It's a question to which I'm not sure I frankly have a particularly compelling answer, because I'm not sure that a particularly compelling answer exists. This simply is not the kind of thing that ever, ever, ever, ever should be partisan. America, whatever its works may or may not be, is by orders of magnitude the greatest country ever conceived by man. The US Constitution is the greatest document for lowercase R republican self governance ever devised by man. All of the amazing political theory, all of that went into this nation's founding that still guides it today. Individual liberty under the rule of law, oriented towards the general welfare and the common good, separation of powers, federalism. It's so great. Natural right. How could you possibly take this for granted? But that's what Democrats seem like they're doing. Because all the benefits of America, prosperity, liberty, your right to speak your mind, your right to go purge a firearm. We covered the second amendment in depth just a few weeks ago. Your right to do so many things, to make a fortune if you have the resources and the ingenuity and the drive, motivation, your right to marry who you want, to live the lifestyle that you want, and this and that and that, to live virtuously in accordance with the dictates of your conscience, freedom of worship. Everyone benefits. So if you benefit, which again, we all do because It's a structural thing. Democrats might call it a systemic thing. And you are still not grateful. There's a word for that. It's called an ingrate. Someone who is not grateful for the benefits that he or she demonstrably, clearly has received. Don't be an ingrate. Gratitude is one of the most foundational virtues of any justice society. Any society that wants to last throughout the generations must be one that appreciates, recognizes that which it has been given and which is in turn grateful ultimately to God, but also to our institutions, to our rule of law, our constitution, et cetera, for all that we have been given. I note also that there are a lot of countries around the world where you don't actually see this partisan divide when it comes to left to right on the question of nationalism or patriotism. A lot of other countries around the world. Japan comes to mind. You think that lefties in Japan are not patriotic to Japan? No, of course they are. Japan's a very nationalist enterprise. Lefties on their political spectrum just have a very different vision for what Japan looks like. But you better believe they're flying the flank. Israel is a good example as well. Before October 7, the Big Issue over there was their judicial reform debate. You had Netanyahu and the nationalists who were trying to reform the Supreme Court over there. And then you had the liberals trying to uphold their dystopian vision of judicial supremacy. Notably, a lot of these lefty even sort of funded protests as some of them were. What did they feature? Oh yeah, the national flag. They were flying the Israeli flag. That was on the left. Here in America, when you go to a left wing protest, you don't typically see the American flag, do you? You definitely don't. If anything, you might see the American flag burning. A so called right that was falsely codified as right in the erroneous 1989 Supreme Court case Texas v. Johnson. You might see the American flag burning. You'll probably see the rainbow flag, you'll probably see the Black Lives Matter flag, but you definitely will not see the American flag. It's not just Juneteenth, it's also June. It's so called Pride Month. We've discussed a little bit this week on the show the outrageous situation with Major League Baseball and the San Francisco Giants putting the rainbow on the Giants logo. And some Christian pictures want to put the Genesis verses about what the rainbow actually means when it comes to God's covenants with Noah to never destroy the earth again. And that whole controversy nonetheless, despite the fact that corporate America that The Biden administration or Biden administration have been all in for so called pride. There are some Democrats who are such ingrates, to use our theme today. They are such ingrates that they actually have the temerity to think that this country's current treatment of gays, lesbians, transgender, etc. Is equivalent to Jim freaking Crow. Keith Ellison of Minnesota actually said just that. Let's go ahead and watch. We now live in an America where it is perfectly legal to say because

[C]

of 303Creative, we don't serve gays.

[A]

We just.

[B]

We don't serve them. We will not make a wedding cake

[C]

with two guys on it or two women.

[B]

We don't serve them. We live in Jim Crow America for gay people now. And so I think it is important for us as the American Constitutional Society

[C]

to really say,

[B]

if things aren't going to stay where they're at, where are they going? Literally no one believes this. There is not a single person who believes that the current treatment of the Rainbow Agenda here in America is equivalent to Jim Crow. That is an outrageous, outrageously and say, what an insult. What an insult to the black people whose basic dignity was denied when it came to these segregated water fountains, to the separate lunch counters, the separate schools, the entire Plessy versus Ferguson regime. What an absolute insult. On the contrary, in today's woke intersectional adult brains era, it is the Rainbow Agenda that is oftentimes exalted to be the quintessence of what it means to be a just and righteous society. The good news is that this insanity on the left is not attracting a particularly big audience, is it? It was actually Tom Hicks, of all people, the Hollywood megastar who kind of got it in and twisted the knife when it came to one of those particular outlets advancing the left's agenda. Mississippi. Now, here was Tom Hanks on Ms.

[C]

Now Doris Kearns Goodwins is here.

[B]

It's great to see you. What can I do for the 800 people? Jacob Sobroff, we're live on Ms. Now. All right. Add a zero to it if you need. Okay. That is funny. I don't pretend to know Tom Hanks politics. Maybe he's a closet Republican. Maybe it's also closet. But the point is that the audience for people like Keith Ellison saying that the Rainbow Agenda is today is Jim Crow. The audience for people being profound, deeply rooted in greats who do not appreciate what they've been given, the audience is small and is dwindling. That's a silver lining. And ultimately that's something that we should Count on going forward. Folks are going to a quick break. We'll be right back with more.

[A]

When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

[B]

Welcome back. So the big story continues to be not just declining patriotism at home, but the situation with Iran. So today was supposed to be the big day where this highly problematic memorandum of understanding was going to be signed over at some high fluted mountaintop resort in Switzerland. We got word just yesterday over the past 24 to 36 hours that JD Vance was not going to make it. And then shortly after that, we saw the resumption of hostilities in the Israel Hezbollah battle when it comes to Lebanon. So Hezbollah tragically killing four Israeli soldiers and then Israel responding as they obviously were going to do a lot of inflammatory comments, let's call them also yesterday from the White House lectern From Vice President J.D. vance really hectoring and scolding Israel, essentially telling them that they not grateful enough and there is something to be said for that. Look, let's be clear. I have been a critic of this MoU for the very simple reason that I do not think that this MOU actually gets us any of the results that we set out to achieve at the outset of this campaign. So we went to war alongside our allies for 39 days, I believe is the exact number. And then we've gotten this ceasefire for close to 70 days, give or take. And why did we cut the effort premature? And why do we exert so much effort trying to get a deal, any deal, rather than just to keep them with our foot on their throat as we had them. So I still have a lot of questions. I have a lot, a lot of questions and I'm not sure those questions are going to be resolved anytime soon. Perhaps something could happen over the next 60 days of this mou, but perhaps not. In any event, it was supposed to happen today. But Hezbollah being who Hezbollah is, they have decided to try killing a bunch more Israelis. So the, the Israel, Israel hezbol is not going anywhere, nor frankly will it, for the very simple reason that neither party, Hezbollah is a terrorist organization or Israel or the country, neither of those entities is a actual party to the MoU. The MoU is signed by President Trump and by the President of Iran. They are the two countries that are bound by this agreement. Now, you might say, oh, Iran doesn't really take seriously being bound by anything. And sure enough, they don't. But Israel definitely will not take seriously being bound by an agreement that they're not even a party to. Heck, not only are they not a party to it, they didn't even see the text until the text was public. So why in the world would they feel bound? Now, there is language about a ceasefire when it comes to the Lebanese state, but who cares? Israel's not at war with Lebanon. They're at war with Hezbollah. Why? Because Hezbollah is. Because Hezbollah is at war with them. Iran could stop Hezbollah by snapping their fingers. Hezbollah to this day is a proxy whose loyalty is to Iran. So the whole situation continues to be a mess. Will this MoU even have this symbolic signing ceremony in Switzerland or elsewhere over the next day or two? Frankly, I have no idea. A lot of questions, especially in light of the Vice President's somewhat inflammatory and not particularly kind remarks that he said yesterday about the U. S. Israel relationship. A lot of questions swirling, also not just about the binational relationship, but also about the personal relationship between President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu. The Vice president, interestingly saying that Trump is the only world leader who still likes Israel. That's actually factually inaccurate, for whatever it's worth. Not to be too pedantic, but there are any number of other nations and leaders who happen to be big fans of both Netanyahu personally and Israel as a country. Javier Molay in Argentina comes to mind. Narendra Modi, he's the leader of the nation's most populous state, India. He's a big fan of both Bibi and Israel. So a pretty bizarre and just inaccurate dubious statement from the vice president. So a lot of these questions being raised there about the Trump Bibi personal relationship. Trump actually commenting on that just over the past day or two. Here was Donald Trump speaking on the Axio show about his relationship with Bibi Netanyahu. Your relationship with Netanyahu's, it's good, but

[C]

we have to keep him a little bit.

[A]

Shane.

[B]

Okay, so is this funny talk or not? Look, your mileage may vary. What the United States and Israel accomplished is a very, very big deal. And that should not get lost in this epic fury. Was very, very successful while it lasted. It was stopped prematurely. And by the way, current polling on this before we get to our guest, Rich Goldberg. Current polling on this is actually highly illustrative. So a brand new poll actually shows that self described MAG Republicans favor full on regime change in Iran over a negotiated settlement by 51 to 25 numbers. So there are twice as many mag Republicans who actually favor regime change over a negotiated settlement. Personally, my goal was actually neither of these two things. Well, it actually was some sort of resolution, not necessarily regime change that actually accomplished our goals. But I just think it's fascinating amidst all the noise, the vice president taking an extremely dovish stance, people like Tucker and Megan who think they've won. I think it's worth noting that actually even MAGA Republicans still favor a more aggressive line there. Will we get that more aggressive line down the line after the mou? Well, I guess we'll see. So joining us today is repeat Josh Hammershow guest Rich Goldberg. Rich is, among other things, a senior advisor at fdd, the foundation for Defense of Democracies. You can follow him on X. Rish Goldberg. Rich, we always appreciate your insights both on the show and out there in the world in general. I want to get into the substance of what's in and just as importantly, if not more importantly, what's not in this memorandum of understanding in just a minute. But for now, can you just tell us exactly where things stand? It's a little hard to figure out. So there's supposed to be a big summit in Switzerland today. There's this grand signing ceremony with President Trump with his Iranian counterparts. And then we got word overnight that Hezbollah tragically had murdered four Israeli soldiers. And the situation in Lebanon is now escalating, as it often seems like it is. Where do things actually stand when it comes to all the moving parts before getting into the substance of the actual MOU itself?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I think the status quo at the moment, obviously including all of the damage that you have to sort of put into your assessment that's been done through epic fury, is that the Strait of Hormuz is supposedly opening up. I mean, we've seen some contrary reports from the Iranians supposedly threatening traffic, saying they won't open it up, trying to tie things back to escalation by Hezbollah against Israel and making that an issue. But what seems to be happening is that we have definitely lifted our blockade. Central Command has announced that Iranian ships are now apparently free to leave the Strait of Hormuz, leave not just Strait of Hormuz but the blockade line that was obviously south of the strait. So there is oil flowing to market from Iran There is supposed to now be more and more oil and gas and petrochemicals and all the other byproducts and products out of the Gulf that's coming out through the Strait of Hormuz that the world needs as well. And then we haven't yet seen the next pieces here we're supposed to see up front. Once we confirm the Strait of Hormuz is open and and that traffic is flowing again, there's no real concrete this hour, this date, this time, but it's sort of commensurate with the step being taken that the United States will then issue some sort of formal sanctions relief for those oil tankers that are leaving Iran that allows them to sell their oil on the open market for some likely market price, if it's legitimate at that point and not illicit discounted sales to the Chinese as they used to do. And there's where we just don't have details yet of what's the extent of that relief look like. Can they repatriate the money? Are the sales supposed to be the revenue put into escrow accounts? Is it backdated? Is it just from the date of the waiver forward? That matters because there is cash in China, especially for all the illicit sales to date. So that's what we know so far. As far as what's on the ground. The rest of it is sort of a business loi, right? Like a non binding loi. If you think of this and think President Trump comes from a business background, he's surrounded by business people who do deals all the time in Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner, an loi can have rainbows and unicorns in it as promises of where this deal could go contingent on a million things that may never happen during due diligence. And all you actually wanted it for was the initial step, the initial having it, in this case, most likely getting Hormuz open and refilling the tank here in the United States, quite literally on the oil market and the gasoline stocks.

[B]

Where do things stand, Rich Goldberg, when it comes to the frozen Iranian assets? I know that you've been all over this. When it comes to the previously frozen assets in Hong Kong and Shanghai, Dubai and elsewhere, where does it stay on that front? Just about a minute left before breaking.

[C]

So that is also supposed to be again, it's not clear in what they've announced when this is supposed to happen, whether that's a sweetener in the Hormuz opening up. But There are accounts, 6 billion, 10 billion here, Oman, Qatar, elsewhere, where there's money that used to be trapped is trapped from previous oil sales that sanctions have locked up and now they're supposed to be made available in some way for the central bank of Iran to send an invoice and then get it paid. What are they allowed to get it paid for? Is it drugs and food? So called humanitarian? Obviously all money is fungible. It's budget support no matter what it's for. But is it much broader than that? The reason I asked that question, we don't know the answer is how many invoices could they possibly have that could get paid that fast in 60 days? Is it a few million dollars, a few tens of millions, a hundred million dollars of food and medicine, or is it billions upon billions of dollars of debt payments that they owe to various parties? We don't know the answer to that.

[B]

Mitch Goldberg is a senior advisor for the foundation for Defense of Democracies. You can follow him on xGoldberg. He's got a lot of smart stuff to say and he joins us for much more after a short break, folks. We'll be right back with more with Rich Goldberg. Stay with us.

[A]

Granger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lightsaber to fail, filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[B]

Welcome back. And Rich Goldberg rejoined us. Rich, again, folks, is a senior advisor for the foundation for Defense of Democracies. Among other hats that he wears. You can follow him on X at RichGoldberg. Rich, I do want your broader 35,000 foot altitude level view of this MOU. Just to give you my full perspective, my cards on the table. I've been very critical all week of this deal on the show. I think that it fails to achieve essentially a single one, frankly, of the goals that were laid out at the outset of Operation Epic Fury. Now, the silver lining is that it's just an mou. I suppose this is not a final deal. There is still in theory the possibility of a favorable resolution. But to me, the deal just frankly looks awful at this stage. Is that more or less how you view it or are you a little rosier than I am?

[C]

I'm sort of in a wait and see mode right now because I can see the logic and argumentation of the administration quite clear. And I can present that argument and sort of start from the basis of what was the pre war status quo ante. Iran had 1 and a half to 2 million barrels per day of oil, oil going out to market. Illicitly, the Chinese bought that. They got the money in barter and other ways. Illicitly, they chugged along with that little bit amount of money. But they were on really the brink of what we would call a missile breakout, which is to say their production rate of missile production would have been so accelerated that they would have thousands upon thousands upon thousands of missiles to create just a fortress around them where nobody would dare attack them for fear of all the things you've already seen, plus just existential type of damage to Israel. And then once the intermediate range missiles continue to accelerate, then Europe, and then of course they wanted the intercontinental ballistic missile, so it's coming for us. And then that would give them cover for the reconstitution of the nuclear program by having that missile breakout first. And then you'd have a nuclear breakout to follow in coming months and years. That's all off the table now. So the US Israeli military action means that they can't enrich uranium. That was true last year and remains true now. And they can't build a missile yet, a ballistic missile, as far as we know. I mean, they'll try, they'll start reconstituting, but that rate of production will take a long, long, long time to catch up to where they were once they even reconstitute the supply chain itself, that is devastating to the regime as far as an existential threat to the west, the external threat that they would use to shake us down for cash in the past, the nuclear extortion, missile extortion, that's off the table. And so that's pretty good. And then you look at the actual economic damage of the campaign. There's range of estimates, I've heard $250 billion, and now I'm hearing people say $750 billion or more. I mean, whatever it is, they're circling the drain. Add on the blockade, economic fury, which was the Treasury Department's economic war over the last several weeks. I mean, they are, you know, the ephemeral artery has been cut, they are bleeding out. And so I then asked the question, which is, okay, that's what's happening on the Iranian side of the table, what's happening on our side of the table. Well, can we just continue to move through blockade and let them bleed out? How long will that take? Can we reopen the Strait on our own to relieve our own pressure in the global market? As we're seeing inventories specifically in refined products going down and down and down to alarm levels because of the export of refined product from the United States, along with earlier in the conflict when jet fuel prices had skyrocketed, a lot of our refineries switched over to jet fuel because that's where the money was. And so our own commercial stocks have been draining on gasoline along the way. We are the world's largest exporter and producer of oil at the moment and gas, and yet we just don't have the refining capacity domestically to have enough, if we're also exporting and we're making jet fuel to have enough for our own gasoline stocks here. So those stocks have been drawing down. That's a danger sign for the economy. We do need relief there. So my question is if for some reason the military operation that I favored, Project Freedom to reopen the Strait on our terms alongside the blockade, which I thought would have been checkmate on the regime, for some reason that wasn't possible, was cut off, cut short, and we had to do this mini Project Freedom that at least showed the Iranians we could try and get there, but maybe wasn't fast enough to bring the full relief to the market, and that was enough to at least get us this deal. The question I have then is under this mou, and it goes back to our last segment of how much money is it really that they're going to get? Is this a Band Aid on that mortal wound that's bleeding out, or is this a tourniquet and we're taking the regime to the hospital? If it's a Band Aid and we're getting the real relief that we need in the economy and the energy market, while maintaining enough pressure on them to just limp along, basically, while continuing to slowly bleed out, even if it's a tourniquet, but we're not taking them to the hospital. That's less optimal, but could be what it is. We still then buy ourselves some breathing time to refill the stocks, quite literally in the energy market, reload, get back into a back room with the Israelis and say, what do we know? What are the lessons learned? Where are we going to reattack when they prove themselves to be terrorists and don't actually do anything else because they got some relief now? You know, terrorists, typically, when they're running an Extortion racket. The more you give them, the more they demand and the fewer concessions they're going to make in response. That's usually the logic. We'll see if it plays out differently. If they are truly hemorrhaging and we're only giving them a Band Aid, they might have an incentive to say, we need more. Immediately, we'll give you the enriched uranium entirely. We'll dismantle these nuclear facilities. We won't produce missiles anymore. Here's how we'll prove it to you. We won't take any money ever again and give it to terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas and the Houthis, et cetera. Seems hard to imagine in that at this very moment, at the start, they're trying to save their flagship terrorist proxy, Hezbollah in Lebanon, and push us to push ISRA to allow Hezbollah to grow, metastasize, and attack Israel. One would assume that means they haven't actually detached from the idea of sponsoring terrorism. Just throwing out a wild guess. But in the meantime, at least keep the pressure on them. If, in fact, this is tourniquet, take them to the hospital, basically pay a massive extortion racket to get Hormuz opened, and then allow them to continue to escalate their demands. Because I'm from Chicago, we grew up learning about Al Capone and protection rackets. What happens when you pay the racket is the price keeps going up and the harassment keeps going up to make sure you keep paying. At some point, that will become unsustainable and this will collapse. When that is, I don't know. Clearly, the President's made a decision. He doesn't want that to happen before the midterm elections. He wants to make sure we don't have price shocks in the United States. He needs the energy market refilled. I just hope that we are going to maintain as much pressure as possible, not allow them to push us around or push Israel around in the meantime. And if we're able to keep that pressure on while understanding, all that has been gained by the courage that Donald Trump had to launch Epic Fury. I mean, it is not an overstatement to say that Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu have saved the world. They did. Yeah. I just talked to an Israeli newspaper that called and said, do you feel that this is a betrayal? Has Donald Trump just done a 180? Is this a betrayal? And I said, I've gone to the Passover Seder in the past and read the Haggadah and remember the song Dayenu. I don't remember the part of Dayenu where it says, oh, and if God didn't do that next one, then he would have betrayed the Jewish people. It's like, no, actually, these are incredible miracles that have happened already. We should celebrate that. The US And Israel destroyed the missile program, destroyed the nuclear program, and now it's about making sure we don't allow the situation to hurt us in a strategic way and we maintain enough pressure and get back together and regroup to say, what's next? How do we advance? How do we get more wins out of this? And then for the president, who obviously has a lens that is global in grand strategy, China, Russia, North Korea, you know, what's next in Venezuela, what's next in Cuba, all of these things in addition to global terrorism and cyber threats and pandemics, this is one big, big, big important piece. And he's done a lot. He does have to always zoom out and think about our economic health and our security and how we're gonna be able to continue to move on all the other pieces that are important while not allowing this cancer to come back. And that's the key. We cannot allow the cancer to come back.

[B]

Well, that is the key. And there's now 60 days to try to get some sort of resolution when it comes to the nuclear issue. The ballistic missile issue has partially been taken care of just over the course of epic fury. But there's definitely some infrastructure still remaining. So there's a lot of moving parts here, Rich. But I for one appreciate your rosier take. It's actually a breath of fresh air, Frank and I, and I personally appreciate hearing that very much. One final time post. You can follow Rich Goldberg on X at RichGoldberg. He is, among other things, a senior advisor at FDD. Rich, wishing you a great weekend. We appreciate your perspective as always, my friend. Thank you for stopping by.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Folks, one final break. Stay with us. We'll be right back with some closing thoughts after this.

[A]

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[B]

Welcome back. So genuinely appreciative of hearing different perspectives here on the show. Rich Goldberg definitely offered a slightly different perspective than what I presented to you on the show this week. And recall that Rich served in the White House in an energy capacity. That's not come up in our conversation. But Rich is thinking all the times about energy levels, as he should, because energy is really, really, really freaking important. The price of oil is the mother's milk of the price of literally everything. Because virtually any good or service that you procure over the course of your life is going to be aff affected by the price of transportation. Whether transportation is from an automobile, an airplane, a truck, a ship or whatever, it's all going to come back to oil. So if the CEOs of America's major oil companies, Chevron, Exxon, et cetera, are really, really, really worrying about a supply crisis over the next few weeks, next month, then yeah, that does militate strongly in favor of some sort of short term band Aid while kicking the can down the road to potentially resume hostilities. I still don't love it or anything there. I'm not gonna change what I've been saying all week there, but it is definitely an important point and one that is worth taking very seriously. Ultimately, I still do think that this was driven by domestic political calculations when it comes to November, probably more so than any kind of calculation when it comes to what the oil executives are saying. But it's worth bearing that perspective in mind, that is for sure. So speaking of foreign affairs, Pete Hegseth Pete Hegseth is still the Secretary of War. He's been somewhat MIA when it comes to this whole Iran MO MOU conversation for the very simple reason probably, that he does not actually support it. We believe that Pete Hegseth, Marco Rubio and John Ratcliffe at the War Department, State Department and the CIA respectively, that none of them are particularly big fans of this mou. They have all taken steps to distance themselves. But Hegseth took Thursday, took Thursday to really railing against a different foreign entity. This one is NATO. Now, the listeners and viewers of the show will not be strangers to hearing me go off on NATO either. I've been saying for years and years and years that NATO has outlived its usefulness. The interesting thing, though, is that I'm not alone here. It's President Trump who increasingly is echoing these same points. And Pete Hegseth was doing so in very eloquent, borderline fiery fashion just on Thursday. Hero Secretary of War Pete Hegseth many years and over two administrations, and for too long NATO has Been a paper tiger and a one way street no more. And that's what the Hague summit is all about. That's what defense spending commitments are all about. Transforming NATO back into a real military alliance that's focused on hard power and real deterrence. A NATO 3.0 modeled on the NATO 1.0 that won the Cold War with our allies actually taking the lead in Europe's conventional defense. Eisenhower was supreme Allied Commander then, not yet our nation's 34th president. But he and his allied counterparts, all of them still living in the shadow of World War II, understood that NATO's power did not come from committees or from meetings or from small flags on fancy tables. It came from warriors. And for Europe's defense it had come from NATO allies. So strong stuff from ptex that's talking about the need for a new NATO. NATO that will actually take responsibility for its own self defense, especially when it comes to our European allies. And he cannot be more right on that. I guess the question I still have is what is the purpose? What is the raison d' etre of this transnational organization? Any organization has to have a purpose that justifies it and makes it worthwhile. The founding purpose of NATO was very, very clear. It was explicit. The containment at minimum, or potentially, God willing, the outright defeat of the Soviet Union. NATO was a smashing success of minorization. Why? Because it actually achieved what it set out explicitly to do. That happened with the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 and the dissolution of the Soviet Union into the Russian Federation in 1991. That was a long time ago. I was born the year that the Berlin Wall fell. Gen Z. All of it was born after all of that. So what exactly are we still doing? Who is the enemy that NATO is fighting? Is it still Russia really, this paper tiger? A country that has struggled so mightily to swallow up meaningful swaths of Ukraine over the past four and a half years. Ukraine, which actually just recently has been firing all sorts of rockets deep into the heart of Russia, reaching lots of oil facilities in Moscow. Really, that Russia. That's why NIO still exists. China, Does NATO exist to fight China? Why? Why should the European powers be particularly useful when it comes to fighting China? Shouldn't countries like Japan and India and the Philippines and maybe Taiwan be a little more useful there? So what is the purpose of NATO? Why are we doing this? I just don't know the answer. But nonetheless, I was happy to see Hegseth continue to pound this issue. Continue to pound this issue when it comes to why we are here in the first place, at least at that Berry and looking for a retooled and rejuvenated NATO. Now on the home front, there are all sorts of domestic political shenanigans happening as well. So we haven't covered at great length. Jesse Arm was in us, was on our show for conversation earlier this week. We've talked about this a little bit. There was a mayoral race that happened earlier this week in Washington, D.C. and while all the ballots are still being counted, because that's how it works these days in blue jurisdictions, California, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. So it looks like the next mayor of the nation's capital will be Janice Lewis George, who is a radical, radical, cartoonish leftist. She is endorsed by the DSA just like Zormandani. She will do to Washington, D.C. what Zormandi has done and is trying to do to New York City. She will be trying to socialize as much as possible and basically just try to dictate your life as much as possible from the top down. This is the state of the current Democratic Party. They are electing DSA socialists. They are expanding their campaign infrastructure. They are embedding campaign operatives. The DSA is the heart and soul of the Democratic Party. And to take us back to our opening segment today, when it comes to diminishing patriotism on the left, this has a lot to do with it. The rise of the radical left, the dsa, the Islamo Leftist Alliance. This is the beating heart of the American left today. But before the rise of the dsa, there actually was the rise of a man by the name of Barack Hussein Obama. Barack Obama was the predecessor to all the modern maladies and problems on the current left today. Barack Obama was woke before there was wokeism. He was the guy who was trying to divide America before there were the political assassins who, who are quite literally trying to tear down America today. And yes, it actually was the long overdue, long overdue inauguration of the hideously ugly Obama Presidential library on the south side of Chicago, just a few steps from where I went to law school at the University of Chicago there in Hyde Park. Obama gave a characteristically awful speech. Here is part of what he said.

[C]

A belief in the peaceful transfer of

[B]

power after the peace.

[C]

People have spoken in fair and free

[B]

elections, recognizing that in a large, complicated society like ours, no group or faction gets its way 100% of the time. And a belief that qualities of character, honesty, integrity, kindness, compassion. Okay, so Barack Obama is criticizing the free transfer of power. I just find it notable and a little ironic. Barack Obama spied on Donald Trump during the first transition to power. That was the origin of the entire scandal with Comey and Mueller and Russiagate. It all went back to Obama era spying on the 2016 Trump campaign into the transition period before Trump took office on January 20, 2017. He's not the guy to talk about a smooth, respectful and constitutionally appropriate transfer of power. This taxpayer funded or taxpayer. Jason Boondogo came in way, way over budget. It is way, way overdue. It is old, but it's a reminder that Barack Obama is who he was, much like the mullahs of Iran. I go back to Herm Edwards, the old NFL coach who said, they are who we thought they were. Barack Obama is who we thought he was. Finally, I wanted to end with a very quick word about this week's Torah portion. This week's Parsha. So we are well into the Book of Numbers at this point. This is the fourth of the five books of the of the books of Moses and the Parsha. This week, the Torah portion is Parsha Korach, named after the character Korach who leads this rebellion against Moses. And there are two things that I want to point out here. So the one thing is that I think it is worth noting that Korach ends up getting swallowed up by the earth. So the earth actually opens and Korak and his fellow mutineers, those who are trying to mutiny over Moses, are literally swallowed by the earth. And one of the questions that gets raised by this Parsha is why does that happen to Korak? And the answer is that he was trying to be extremely, extremely high. He was criticizing Moses for not being as connected enough to God as Korach thought that he was there. So when you think that you are so high and so high and all you have is hubris and conceit, then the logical remedy is to go really low. That's the symbolic nature of Korach's particular death. The other thing that's worth briefly noting is that Korak's sons, his sons actually end up repenting. In Hebrew, we say they do teshuva, to actually repent for the sins of their father. In fact, if you look at the book of Psalms today, you will see a lot of the Psalms are actually in the name of the sons of Korach. B' nai Korach in the Hebrew. That's a very valuable lesson. No matter what happens to one's parents, the children can oftentimes repent and strike out a new course. We must always honor our parents there. We must always honor them for sure. But. But we are not our parents. We are not our grandparents. We are all our own individuals. We are all made in our own image of God. Per Genesis 1:27 folks, have a great rest of the weekend. We'll see what happens in Iran and elsewhere, and we'll be right back. As always, on Monday morning. Take care until then.

[A]

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