Is Florida Still the Place Where ‘Woke Goes to Die’?

Summary

The Josh Hammer Show — Episode Summary
Episode: Is Florida Still the Place Where ‘Woke Goes to Die’?
Date: May 28, 2026
Host: Josh Hammer — Newsweek Senior Editor-at-Large
Special Guest: Dr. Stuart Bell, incoming President of the University of Florida (former President, University of Alabama)

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Overview

This episode examines whether Florida, once heralded as the place “where woke goes to die” under Governor Ron DeSantis, remains a bulwark against progressive “woke” ideology—specifically in the realm of DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) policies in higher education. With recent controversy surrounding the appointment of Dr. Stuart Bell as the next president of the University of Florida, Josh Hammer explores the future of the state’s anti-woke stance and engages directly with Dr. Bell to discuss allegations and expectations.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Florida’s Anti-Woke Reputation

• Hammer opens by reaffirming his personal and ideological commitment to Florida’s political direction:

  “I made a great decision to move here... I moved here for many reasons, but among them was how Governor Ron DeSantis was leading the state through the pandemic and his entire governing philosophy of using mild state power... to... send to the ash heap of history the toxic pernicious DEI ideology.” (02:00)

• He frames DEI as “a quasi-Marxist hierarchy” that “means discrimination on the basis of race” and lauds efforts, including recent bans in Florida and other red states.

2. The Stuart Bell Controversy

• The Board of Trustees at the University of Florida’s unanimous nomination of Dr. Bell raised concerns, especially due to headlines around his alleged support or expansion of DEI at the University of Alabama.
• The failed nomination of Santa Ono, former president at the University of Michigan, is referenced as a precedent.

3. Hammer’s Guiding Principle

• Hammer states his uncompromising view on racial discrimination:

  “Discrimination on the basis of race is here, there and everywhere wrong. It is here, there and everywhere evil... manifestly contrary to the nature of human beings...” (09:05)

• He critiques affirmative action and DEI as failing to help and, instead, creating “zero sum games” through “mismatch” in college placements.

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Interview with Dr. Stuart Bell (14:00–33:18)

Addressing the Allegations (14:02–15:45)

• Dr. Bell denies being a “stooge for the DEI agenda”:

  “Certainly not... DEI maybe became [segregation or harassment] at some places in the country. That certainly was not our focus at the University of Alabama...we really focused on serving our state... making sure they see opportunities for higher education...without lowering academic standards.” (14:02)

• Emphasizes focus on recruiting in-state and rural students (across all races), highlighting Alabama’s high (15%) poverty rate.

Contextualizing DEI Metrics (15:45–18:51)

• Hammer cites data: 30+ DEI personnel, DEI deans in most colleges, $2M annual cost, and 36% “diversity”-labeled courses at Alabama.
• Bell attributes large personnel to outreach efforts:

  “It takes a lot of folks... going into rural areas, homes... encouraging [bright but disadvantaged students] they can attend university.” (17:03)

• Explains that “diversity-related” courses often mean language or geographic diversity (e.g., international law, world history), not anti-merit or racial quotas.

Recruitment Philosophy & Race (18:51–21:05)

• Hammer queries intent, especially regarding black student enrollment given Alabama’s history.
• Bell responds:

  “We were after really recruiting all students... doesn’t matter what the race is... If in doing so we increase [black student] numbers, that’s a win for all in-state students.” (19:30)

DEI’s Connotation in Practice (21:05–21:57)

• Hammer: “I presume that’s not what the DEI deans under your tutelage Alabama were doing, right?”
• Bell:

  “Oh, absolutely not... Our focus is... merit. Those other things are foreign to me as a core belief... quite frankly, I think they’re a disservice... we would never do that.” (21:05)

Outlining DEI Personnel Activities (22:07–22:25)

• Bell reiterates outreach and encouragement as the DEI teams’ core effort.

Discrimination & Affirmative Action (24:06–24:20)

• Hammer: “Is there ever any situation in which discrimination on the basis of race is right, even for so-called benevolent reasons?”
• Bell:

  “No, I don’t think so... the long-term implications... that’s not a good value.” (24:06)

DEI and Anti-Semitism Post-October 7th (25:40–27:50)

• Hammer references University of Florida’s large Jewish student body and anti-Semitism concerns.
• Bell describes Alabama’s response after October 7th:

  “If you came on our campus, no encampments... strong outpouring from our Hillel... invited the Consul General of Israel... [She said:] ‘What you guys do... is a model for everyone across the US.’” (25:40)

Purpose of the University (27:50–30:23)

• Hammer and Bell discuss the university’s role.
• Bell:

  “It’s also down in the building blocks of what we do... If we get very far away from that, we forget who we serve... focused on a better society... creating jobs... and the right mindset.” (28:45)

On Institutional Neutrality (30:23–32:07)

• Hammer highlights the University of Florida’s adherence to “Chicago Principles” of neutrality.
• Bell:

  “What I would do is more of that, I think more investment in that... The Hamilton Center ... amazing college ... we've got to invest in that.” (30:54)

Final Word to Critics (32:07–33:18)

• Hammer asks for Bell’s response to critics.
• Bell:

  “I don’t think they know who I am as a person... I believe in meritocracy, working hard, achievement... I’d be open to listen to any questions.” (32:07)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Hammer:

  “Affirmative action is everywhere a zero-sum game... if there is anything that we stand for on this show... it’s that DEI is everywhere wrong.” (09:50)

• Dr. Bell:

  “There’s great students everywhere. And we’re really focusing on building our in-state population... to break the circle of poverty.” (14:32)

• Dr. Bell:

  “We make decisions based on merit... Anything else is foreign to me as a core belief... It’s a disservice.” (21:16)

• Hammer referencing Justice Clarence Thomas:

  “Even so-called benevolent attempts to ‘help’ a certain race ultimately end up hurting a certain race.” (24:23)

• Dr. Bell, post-October 7 Hillel visit:

  “I went over and visited with students... next day their dad wrote that thanks to [what he observed], he felt safe sending his child there...” (26:05)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:30–12:56: Host monologue — Florida’s stance, DEI in America, setup for Dr. Bell controversy
• 14:00–33:18: Extended interview with Dr. Stuart Bell
• 24:06–24:20: Zero tolerance for racial discrimination, affirmed by Dr. Bell
• 25:40–27:50: Addressing antisemitism and university response post-Oct 7 attacks
• 28:45–30:23: Philosophical discussion on the role and mission of a university

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Concluding Thoughts and Final Analysis

• Hammer remains optimistic about Florida’s anti-woke future but notes “your mileage may vary.”
• The show emphasizes the importance of leadership and adherence to meritocratic, anti-DEI principles in Florida’s higher education system, reflecting and shaping national debates.
• Endorsement by DeSantis is highlighted as significant.
• Listeners are left to draw personal conclusions from Dr. Bell’s answers.

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[For listeners seeking deep dives into the issues of DEI, higher education governance, and the future of politicized academia, this episode offers both philosophical arguments and pragmatic insights, with direct answers from a headline-making university leader.]

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Florida during COVID and afterwards became known under Ron DeSantis as the state where Woke goes to die. The question as we stand at a Floridian crossroads is the following. Is this state still where Woke goes to die? I'm Josh Hammer and this is the Josh Hammer Show. Well, I just moved into my new home this week. This is the first show that I'm recording from our new home. So suffice to say that I personally am making a big investment and my family is making a big investment in the present and the future of the state of Florida. And I am doing that because I love this state, because this state has been very good to me. Because I made a great decision to move here when I did in 2021, more or less at the height of COVID 19. I moved here for many reasons but among them was how Governor Ron DeSantis was leading the state through the pandemic and more generally speaking, his entire governing philosophy of using mild state power if need be to crush and extirpate and send the ash trip of history, the toxic pernicious DEI ideology. Dei this anodyne sounding phrase, so called diversity, equity and inclusion. What does it mean in practice? Well in practice all too often it means discrimination on the basis of race or discrimination on the basis of something else such as religion or so forth. Di in many instances ends up being the implementation of a quasi Marxist hierarchy where you have this dichotomy of oppressed classes and oppressor classes there. In short, it is no good in is very bad. The good news is that DEI is losing across America. It's very much losing across higher education as well. Here in Florida where I live along with many other red states across the country, the legislature has banned dei has straight up banned so called diversity equity inclusion from being inculcated or instilled or used in any manner whatsoever at universities in the state. Again, Florida is very far from the from the only state to do that. Now our guest today who's going to join us is Dr. Stuart Bell. We're Getting the first exclusive interview now of Dr. Stuart Bell. Dr. Stuart Bell was recently, earlier this month was voted unanimously by the University of Florida Board of Trustees to be the next president. Now this, this nomination has has engendered some controversy. There have been any number of pieces in right of center publications, including most prominently the Wall Street Journal. In an op ed written by my colleague actually at the Palm Beach Freeman Institute, Paul de Quanau, there was an op ed that was written, among others, casting a lot of on our guest today, Dr. Stuart Bell. Dr. Bell has been nominated to helm Florida's flagship state, which is one of the most highly ranked public universities in America. He's been not, he has been nominated after the failed nomination last year of Santa Ono. Santa Ono was before that the president of the University of Michigan where he presided over an unambiguous DEI discriminatory regime. Santa Ono was also was also nominated by the University of Florida's Board of Trustees and ultimately he was defeated by the Board of Governors of the statewide Florida system. So the story has not necessarily taken national headlines by storm yet, but it really should because it is a, is a crucial story about the future of higher education in America. And we're going to get into all that and more on Today's show with Dr. Bella for Alphos. I wanted to tell you a quick word about one of our sponsors for today's show, which is Hillsdale College's new upcoming documentary film, Revolutionary America. How much are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness worth to you? This is the question America's founders had to answer. You see, for more than 150 years, America's 13 colonies governed themselves until Britain declared they had no right to self rule. So ordinary people had to make extraordinary choices and risked their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor to fight for independence. And against all odds they won. And in victory they built one of the most stable and lasting republics in history. Now experience the American Revolution like never before thanks to our friends at Hillsdale College. Revolutionary America, a new documentary from Hillsdale Studios and narrated by Tom Selleck, brings the founding of our nation to life through the voices of those who lived it. Alongside insights from leading scholars and commentators. Folks, I have seen this documentary from start to finish. I had the distinct pleasure of watching it a few weeks ago. There it is. Absolutely fantastic. I am a total, total, total American history buff. I have read countless books about the American Revolution there and even I actually ended up learning a lot about the revolution. The documentary starts with the French and Indian war in the 1750s into the 1760s. You learn all about, all about those things, some of which you've probably forgotten from your middle school, high school civics courses about the Boston Tea Party, about the stamp, various things of that there. The documentary takes us all through the revolution and post revolution, ultimately culminating with the signing of the Constitution after the convention there. It's a wonderful documentary. All sorts of Hillsdale icons, people like Dr. Larry Arrnd are in it. Eric Metaxas, Michael Knowles, plenty of other big names as well. So at a time when history is often distorted, this is your chance to see the story as it truly happened and ask yourself what you would risk for freedom faced the decisions our founders grappled with in Revolutionary America. A Hillsdale Studios film. It's only in theaters for a limited run May 3rd, 31st to June 2nd. So it's beginning in literally three days. That's just this Sunday. So it's a limited run. Make sure to go ahead and get your tickets right now by going to Hillsdale Edurevolution. I promise folks, you are not going to regret this. You don't want to miss the opportunity to see this on the big screen again. Go to Hillsdale Edu Revolution to locate a theater near you and buy tickets now for Revolutionary America one more time. That's Hillsdale Edu Revolution. Make sure to check out the upcoming Hillsdale College Studios documentary film Revolutionary America. I promise folks, you're not going to revolution. Regret this. So Dr. Bell is going to come on here just a little bit later in the show and we're going to talk about all the allegations that have been brought against him. Did he actually preside over an expansion of DEI policies as the president of the University of Alabama, as his critics allege? The numbers certainly seem to indicate that that is what happened. Perhaps there is more context, though, for those numbers that is necessary. There is one principle that I am absolutely, absolutely unwavering on. I hope that that principle will guide our conversation today with Dr. Bell. And that principle is the following. Discrimination on the basis of race is here, there and everywhere wrong. It is here, there and everywhere evil. It is manifestly contrary to the natural nature of human beings as a species. It is adamantly contrary, vehemently opposed to the very notion of Genesis 1:27 itself. Bazel Melchim in the Hebrew, Imago Dei in the Latin's notion that man is made in go image. That verse there at the beginning of scripture very clearly says that all men is made in God's image. There are not some men that are made or are made better, quote unquote, in God's image. No, we are all the children of God. And all these attempts over the years on a more pragmatic, pragmatic and less moral philosophical level, all these attempts to try to benevolently discriminate the basis of race there, to try to try to give a thumbs up to a black student at the expense of a white student, well, it might look good for the black student, but then the white student is going to lose out. You see, affirmative action is here, there and everywhere. A zero sum game I saw with my own eyes when I was applying for university at the college level, at the law school level. I personally saw any number of minorities on my college campus who presumably would not have gone in were it not for affirmative action, which is kind of the predecessor to dei. And they ended up not being at the right school. This is what the academics long refer to as so called mismatch theory, this notion that affirmative action is actually bringing less academically talented students to superior institutions there where they are then set up to fail, where they whereby they would have been set up for greater success had they attended and matriculated at a university that was better suited for their natural talents and natural capabilities there. So it's wrong, it doesn't work. And if there is anything whatsoever that we stand for on the show, if there's anything whatsoever that we on Team Civilizational Sanity stand for, it is that DEI is here, there and everywhere. Wrong. Now, I have some more thoughts on this before we bring on Dr. Stuart Bell, but I do want to tell you about our other sponsor for today's show, which is Balance of Nature. You know, I typically eat a well rounded meal on a given day there. I am very low on the carbs, very low on the sugar. I typically eat lots of fruits and veggies. I try to do high fiber whole foods there. So I'm typically pretty good. But we're all busy and that's why I've been using these Balance of Nature supplements in recent months. I have been feeling it, trust me there, they supplement my diet. It supports a lifestyle of eating whole foods. These products are all lab tested. They are super, super, super healthy, organic, all MAHA approved. My wife is a total MAHA mom and she loves these ingredients. She gave me the thumbs up and said, josh, go ahead, knock yourself out. Which I have done and I am not regretting it for a second. I can assure you that the Balance of Nature products have no binders, no fillers or flow agents. Balance of Nature uses a process whereby Whole Foods are it's a tailored vacuum pull process and they are powdered and sugared and brought to you. The Whole Health System gives you 47 ingredients of fruits, veggies, spices and fibers. So again, if you go to balancenature.com, check out the Whole Health System today, you can type in hammer for a 10% promo code. Again, that's balancenature.com use promo code HAMMER to get 10% off your order of the balance of nature. Whole Health System Balanced Nature is another sponsor for our show today. So to get back to our opening question there before we go to our conversation with Dr. Stuart Bell. Well, I certainly hope that the answer is that Florida is still the place where woke goes die. That Florida is still the place where DEI goes to die. There are some polls, they are definitely outliers, but there are some polls that show that the gubernatorial race this fall could be potentially a little bit closer here in Florida than some of the more recent statewide elections, such as those in 2024 for Donald Trump and those in 2020, 2022, excuse me, when Ron DeSantis won by over 19 points. But in many respects, Florida is still fool's gold for the Democratic Party at an institutional level. I think the more practical question for Floridians and also really for the country, because Florida is now the nation's third largest state. And if Florida, if Florida is going wobbly on the issue of wokeism and dei, then that does not augur very well, certainly for the rest of the nation. The state has been an absolute and an absolute anchor of the pushback against dei. There, there are a lot of questions at a political level. Will the next governor, whether it is Byron Donalds or someone else, will the next governor here in Florida Continue this Ron DeSantis Legacy of Fighting DEI? It is worth noting that Ron DeSantis himself did come out and quickly endorsed actually the decision of the University of Florida board trustees to nominate to nominate Dr. Stuart Bell as next president of the University of Florida, despite all the naysayers and any statistics that have been making their way through at least my circles when it comes to the expansion of DEI at Alabama under Dr. Stewart Bell. So we're going to bring on Dr. Stuart Bell and he's going to, he's going to answer a lot of blunt questions. Again, this is his first interview, possibly his only public interview. I guess we'll see until he faces a public hearing at FAU Florida Atlantic University. There. University of Florida is one of the top ranked public schools in the country is the flagship of our state university system there. And what happens in Florida, again is oftentimes not going to stay in Florida. The right has been winning on DEI team. Civilizational sanity has been winning and we have been kicking freaking butt on the issue of dei. So the relevant point is that now is not the time to go wobbly. It's not the time to go wobbly for even a smidgen, for even an iota. Is Florida. Is Florida starting to go wobbly?

[C]

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[B]

So, as you mentioned in our introduction here for today, we are delighted to be joined today by Dr. Stuart Bell. Dr. Stuart Bell is the presumptive incoming president of the University of Florida. He most recently served as the president of the University of Alabama at Tuscaloosa, a position that he held for 10 years. So, Dr. Bell, thank you for joining the show. We really do appreciate it very much. I want to begin by just addressing the large elephant in the room, let's say. So your nomination has definitely caused some backlash. There have been articles in the Wall Street Journal and various other right of center publications there essentially saying that during your tenure as president of the University of Alabama that you presided over either an expansion or at least a bestowing of legitimacy upon DEI. Diversity, equity, inclusion. And like many others, Dr. Bell, I moved to Florida in large part because our state, led by our governor, Ron DeSantis, has been so prolific in opposing these measures. So before I get any further, I kind of wanted to give you a chance to respond to some of these allegations head on there. I presume that you are not a stooge for the DEI agenda, Dr. Bell, are you right?

[A]

Certainly not. And I think today when we talk about DEI and certainly the criticisms that we all hear and agree with, we think of segregation in terms of keeping students away from certain areas, maybe certain programs. We look at mistreatment, harassment of students on our campus. So those are certainly what DEI maybe became at some places in the country. That certainly was not our focus at the University of Alabama. We really looked at what we're trying to provide is really serving our State and serving the citizens of our state and making sure that they see opportunities for higher education. I mean, look, we live in a state here where I am that has an extremely high poverty rate, 15%. That's over 760,000 people who live below the poverty level and many of those in rural areas who really never dreamed of the ability to attend a university. And so our focus was really to go out and meet students, great students, where they were certainly not lower any academic standards, but there's great students everywhere. And we're really focusing on building our in state population on our campus and giving those students a chance to really break the circle of poverty. Poverty by being great engineers, being great doctors, going into law, being great teachers. And so that was my mission, is to make sure that we do that. Not what I think labels that we would all say, yeah, we're not that and haven't been that. At the University of Alabama, Dr. Stuart

[B]

Bell has been unanimously nominated by the University of Florida Board of Trustees to be the next president. He most recently served for a decade as the president of the University of Alabama. You know, Dr. Bell, I was taking a look at your biological and you're from Abilene, Texas. You got your education at Texas A and M, you're the president of the University of Alabama most recently. And this is not exactly a profile that leaps off the page as screaming left wing racial activist. Let's go ahead, I guess and just say that. Nonetheless, I do feel compelled to cite at least some of these statistics that had been thrown your way. So by 2021, the DEI dean at Alabama, Christine Taylor, had 30 other dedicated DEI personnel. When you were there at Tuscaloosa, there were DEI deans apparently in six of the nine colleges at Alabama, costing upwards of $2 million a year. And at some point Alabama had 36% of its undergraduate courses that were styled or publicized as diversity related. Now, Alabama obviously has a complicated history when it comes to a lot of these topics and I'm obviously more than aware of that there. So in keeping with what we said earlier about how DEI became this horrific craze in leftist academia throughout the country there, can you perhaps contextualize some of the statistics that I just read off there, what you were actually doing on

[A]

the ground in Tuscaloosa, certainly in terms of reaching students in rural areas and students that again did not have on their radar that they're able to attend a university. It takes a lot of folks to be out in the field and making sure that whether that's speaking at A high school, whether that's actually going into their homes. I mean, a lot of these students, again, they may not have a washing machine and they've never seen one in their house before. We're talking about individuals who, while they have a great fire in their belly and a drive to succeed, it takes touch points of our going there and saying, yeah, you really could come to the University of Alabama. Look, you've done well in school. This is an opportunity. So it does take a lot of individuals to do that. And so that was our focus. We had folks out making sure that we could recruit these students and once they're here to help them be successful so they can get degree, they can get a great job to help serve our state, just as they would be serving the states in Florida. In terms of the number of courses, the courses that are listed as, quote, diversity are really was set up by the American association of Colleges and Universities, and it's really focused on, okay, do you have geographic diversity? Are you talking about international law? Are you talking about foreign languages? Well, a lot of our courses obviously have that and have had that for a long time. It's not, again, what you think about as, as the negative sides of diversity that we hear about. So while we had those, that number of courses that were listed, those were really more geographic diversity, they were language diversity. They were things that you teach students in almost every world history class that would be listed. Yeah, there's a lot of context there for reaching out in diversity. Yes.

[B]

Now, Alabama obviously, again, has a troubled history when it comes to the issue of race. So I presume a lot more time on here when it comes to reaching out to highly impoverished areas. Obviously, a lot of the parts of the state of Alabama have predominantly white populations that are impoverished as well. There's also the black belt, which is known as an area of higher poverty, which is a predominantly black population there. So to what extent were you trying to incentivize more black Alabamians to matriculate at the University of Alabama due to the troubled race history of the state? And is that morally problematic, you think, or perhaps even legally problematic in light of the court's decisions when it comes to affirmative action action?

[A]

Yeah, well, I think really what we were after, we were after really recruiting all students. I mean, we have had great success at the university in recruiting out of state students, but we wanted to do more, as you would expect, to serve your state and have students represented everywhere. So I think that is. It doesn't matter what the race is. It's white students, it's black students, it's Hispanic students. So we're after just growing our in state population now. Does that mean it's going to increase those numbers? Well, obviously, if we're successful and increase in state students and with the percentage of students in our state that are black, we're going to increase those numbers. And I see that as a win, if you will, that we're increasing in state all in state students. We're making those available to all of our students because quite frankly, if we're going to develop our state just as we need to develop our nation, we have to have young people who are ready to go out and be great engineers, who are going to be business leaders and we need to do that.

[B]

I'm sorry to cut you off, but I guess what I'm trying to figure out, Dr. Bell, is DEI nationally has in many ways taken up the connotation and been implemented at some schools, such as University of Michigan, where the previous attempt at nominating University of Florida Santa Ono was previously the president at school, like University of Michigan, DEI has taken on an overtly anti white, anti Christian, anti Asian, anti Jewish, anti Mormon, et cetera connotation there. But I presume that's not what the DEI deans under your tutelage Alabama were doing, right?

[A]

Oh, absolutely not. You know, again, and sometimes I have to think, okay, yeah, wow, no, that's so far from really our focus. Our focus is again to recruit kids, young people from our state who have a fire to be successful, who want to work hard, who we make decisions based on merit. They're going to achieve what they need to achieve and become great doctors, lawyers and teachers and business people. Not all those, those other things are foreign to me as a core belief of what I think we should be doing. And quite frankly, I think they're a disservice when, when you look at trying to create something that's not based on merit, that's not based on hard work. We would never do that.

[B]

Yeah. And I presume that the answer was not. I guess I'm just trying to figure out exactly the what the DEI personnel on the ground were doing. So if you just answer that, we'll hold over this answer too, after the next commercial break as well.

[A]

Yeah, so I think it's going out into those rural areas and spending time with those families and saying, yeah, you really can dream about going to college. We really can break this cycle of poverty. You can be successful at a university. And boy, that's a powerful message.

[B]

No doubt about that. And look, I've traveled all across the south my entire life there. I've spent nights in Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile, athletic, for that matter. I've been all throughout the state of Alabama and there. So I've seen some of poverty for myself. And to the extent that the goal is to incentivize first time college attendees to matriculate there, that is, that is certainly a very noble task. So folks, stay with us through a quick commercial break. We'll be right back on the other side for much more with Dr. Stuart Bell. We'll be right back.

[C]

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[B]

Welcome back. And we're rejoined by Dr. Stuart Bell, who most recently served as the president of the University of Alabama at Tuscaloosa for, for 10 years and has now been unanimously nominated by the University of Florida Board of Trustees to be the next president of the University of Florida in Gainesville. Dr. Bell, race has obviously been an issue in our conversation thus far. It's obviously an issue that you have dealt with countless times in your professional career being the president of the University of Alabama. I guess I want to just clarify and get your thoughts on a very, on a very simple question. Is there ever every situation in which discrimination on the basis of race is right, even if it is done for so called benevolent reasons, as so called affirmative action programs were done in higher education missions for many decades?

[A]

No, I don't think so. And certainly as you think about the long term implications of that, of what you would be instilling in a young person and instilling in society, that's not a good value.

[B]

I think that's well said. It is obviously horrific. And really my citation for that is no better than probably the, the most prominent person who grew up in the Jim Crow south who is still alive and very much in the public sphere today. And that's Justice Clarence Thomas, who in my opinion is the single greatest living American of them all, actually, period, full self. And so I've been saying that for many, many years now and Justice Thomas has certainly been hitting this drum for his entire professional career that even so called benevolent attempts to quote unquote, help a certain race ultimately end up hurting a certain race there. This obviously ends up being very much a zero sum game. Dr. Bell, I also want to get your thoughts. I mentioned that DEI nationally has this connotation and oftentimes it's practiced in a way that redounds against the interests of whites, Christians, Jews, Asians and or Mormons. At the University of Florida, where you've been unanimously nominated to be the next president there, it's actually the single largest Jewish population of any university in America, which, which, which is pretty crazy actually. I, I, it's more than any of the universities in New York or in the Northeast. I've seen photos actually of what some of the, the high holiday services look like there. It's crowded into the basketball arena. It's just like it's a gargantuan, gargantuan gathering. And again, DEI sometimes I would say oftentimes actually as proud as takes on a pretty anti Semitic connotation there. But you obviously stand vehemently against all that, I assume, right?

[A]

Oh, absolutely. And you know, I think the post October 7th was pretty horrific across our country and in many of the responses of other universities. If you came on our campus, were there discussions? Obviously there were discussions. There were certainly no encampments. I mean we just would not allow those to occur. And in fact we had an incredibly strong outpouring from our Hillel and to our Hillel from students. I can recall going over one evening and visiting, it was a week so after October 7, visiting with the students there and making sure they felt comfortable, they felt safe, which I think they did. But what was interesting, the next day I got an email from a father out in California. And the dad said, you don't know me, but my son is there. And you met him last night at the Lao and you talked with him, you comforted him. And you know, I'm a doctor out in California and I felt like I may need to go back over to Israel so that I can use my expertise as a surgeon to help people who maybe have been injured. And he said, I never felt like I could do that after last night, I feel like I can do that. I think that is the story that we create on our campus is that young people through that process felt extremely safe. We invited the Consul General of Israel to our campus and she visited us. Actually took her to a football game, which of course was a fun time as well, but not Sultan Dada. She said, what you guys do and how y' all are handling. This is a model for everyone across the US and so I think we did do that, right? And I, I don't use my, you know, that's not my evaluation. That's evaluation of those students and others who visited our campus and saw what we were doing. And I think that was a real moment, too, for all of us to say, look, there's a better path forward, forward. And that's what we're trying to do.

[B]

Again, folks, Dr. Stewart Bell is most recently the president of the University of Alabama, and he has been unanimously nominated, actually by the board of trustees of the University of Florida to be the next president in Gainesville, Florida, of our state's flagship university system as well. Dr. Bell, let's zoom out a little bit and talk just more about the role of the university. I think this is an oft debated question, frankly. I think it's a question that actually is very much in flux at the moment. As higher education matriculation rates have been declining by most studies for some years now, I think a lot of folks are asking whether or not it is worth it, whether you, whether you get bang for your buck, whether or not some of these universities end up being indoctrination camps. Woke madrasa is a particularly colorful term that I've been using myself for years now. So what actually is the purpose of the university? I personally would define it as sculpting model citizens there who care about family, country and God and ultimately are interested in pursuing knowledge for the sake of truth. But I'm curious how you would define the purpose in your.

[A]

Yeah, and I think that's, that's a great, that's a great purpose statement, I think, you know, and I'm an engineer, so you're gonna have to forgive me. I sometimes think, and I think it also is going out into your state and just finding the young people who can be the fabric of your, of your state in the ways that you just described. But also I'm, you know, to create a great engineer, it takes a lot of work, takes a lot of folks to, to do the math and do all the things to create a great business person. They understand returns on investments so that they can be the leaders in our businesses and be that lawyers, be those doctors. So I think it is aspirationally in what you have described, but then it's also down in the building blocks of what we do. And if we get very far away from that, I think we forget who we serve, and I think we forget what we're trying to provide which is a better society that there's there's just great success and I mean economic success and I mean thriving. We're creating jobs and to do that we have to have those skills and we have to have people with the right mindset, they understand why they have those skills and what they're going to use those skills for. So to me there is nothing. I mean, I think universities and higher education are at the most exciting point of a person's life and society's life. We try to create that truth, we try to create that opportunity that we can be successful by. And I think we'll live and die by that. That's why we exist in what we need to be doing and focused on.

[B]

Now, the last two presidents of the University of Florida, Presidents Sasse and Landry, have really taken measures to make the University of Florida a bastion. As you said, there were no encampments during the post October 7th nonsense. It's become an institution known for neutrality, very much following the so called Chicago principles, not taking stances on emotionally or ideologically intellectually charged issues there. Is this a legacy that you seek to continue and the corollary of that, is there anything that you would do differently than your two presumptive, most immediate predecessors?

[A]

No. And we have adopted both those of Chicago as well as the neutrality here on this campus. I think what I would do is more of that, I think more investment in that. I mean the Hamilton center, which is a amazing college that's been stood there, I mean we've got to invest in that. We have to make sure that that mindset and success spreads and it allows us to create the leaders and the experience of those engineers and doctors and others who are going to be prepared at the University of Florida to be the citizens that we need them to be.

[B]

Yeah, we actually had Dr. Samuel Goldman of the Hamilton School on the show just about a few weeks ago, maybe a month ago or so to talk about Christian Zionism. He wrote a great book on that for years ago. So the Hamilton School is doing really, really wonderful work there in Gainesville and I very much encourage the audience to go ahead and check out, check it out. Dr. Bell, before I let you go. Just about a minute and change left here before, unfortunately we're out of time. I wanted to say just ask you to respond to your critics again. There was an op ed published in the Wall Street Journal and there have been some other pieces put out there as well. That City Journal, the Manhattan Institute's online publication there. What is the number one thing that your critics, those who oppose you getting this job at the University of Florida, what's the number one thing that they get wrong?

[A]

Well, I don't think they know who I am as a person. And I do think much of our management style, our executive leadership, all emanates from who we are as an individual. And I think the questions that you've asked me now have helped clarify some of those. I believe in meritocracy. I believe in working hard. I believe in achievement. I believe in trying to have purpose and a positive purpose in life and changing society in a better way. So I would be open to listen to any questions that people would have and certainly answer those. Just as I think we've had a conversation today and I hope that this certainly conversation, you know, I had short as it is, that we're able to touch on some of the things that I think are critically important to higher education today. And I'll just say the University of Florida is an amazing, remarkable achievements and I am very excited, very excited to see what more we're going to be able to do. The success. It will be a top public institution in the United States. We're talking about top three public institution. It will be the institution of selection where folks want to be.

[B]

Unfortunately, Dr. Bell, we're out of time. But as a young father here in Florida, there's really no school that is more on my very, very, very early list where I wish my door to go, the University of Florida, the Hamilton School, that there. So again, we really appreciate your time, Dr. Bell. Thank you so much for joining us, folks. We'll be right back after a quick commercial break for some closing thoughts today. Let's be right back after this.

[C]

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[B]

Welcome back. So is Florida still going to be the place where Woke goes to die? Did I make a prudent decision to invest in this state as the home not only for myself but for my, for my family and my growing family, God willing, in the years to come, well, your mileage may vary. I personally remain bullish on the future of the state of Florida. Florida and you, the viewer, you the listener, can deduce for yourself how you thought Dr. Stuart Bell answered our questions here on today's show. I appreciate the fact that Dr. Bell was as adamant as he was in unequivocally saying that discrimination on the base of race is here, there and everywhere. Wrong. That is probably not an answer that you would have gotten in such straightforward fashion from a major university president just a few years ago. Frankly, prior to the students were fair admission decision at the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court case that finally, finally, finally said that so called affirmative action is evil. So look, I'm not going to ultimately put my thumb on the scale here one way or the other. I'm not going to come out agreeing with Dr. Bell's critics or agreeing with the board of trustees in recommending Dr. Bell himself. What I will say is that the endorsement of Ron DeSantis still means a lot to me. Ron DeSantis is a lame duck governor here in Florida. Sometimes it is a little more difficult. Difficult than not to tell exactly what his priorities are in Tallahassee these days other than getting us an amazing new 244 Republican map in the recent bout of iterative redistricting. That was great. But to me personally, as someone who chose to move here in no small part due to Ron DeSantis leadership, to me it goes a long way, frankly, that Ron DeSantis was able to come out quickly endorse Dr. Stuart Bell. We will see how all of that plays out. And again, I am grateful to Dr. Bell for making time here on today's show. Again, this was the exclusive interview for Dr. Stuart Bell before his big public Q and at Florida Atlantic University coming up over the next few weeks or next month or so. So there are other things going on in the world. You may have noticed there is a broader country in a broader world out there besides just us here in the state of Florida. And the Biden family is making the news. Now Joe Biden's made the news himself because Joe Biden has now engaged in a, in a lawsuit, in a lawsuit against the Trump doj, essentially trying to claim vice presidential privilege, privilege to suppress, to suppress this interview that he gave in 2016 to early 2017 with a ghostwriter about his memoir, which included some very emotional anecdotes about Bobin, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And this lawsuit, frankly, does not pass the laugh test. The vice president United States does not really have any kind of major immunity. It's the president who has major, major kinds of immunity. That was the holding in a criminal context of the Trump versus United States case at the US Suprem Supreme Court just two years ago. And the reason that it applies to the President, not to the Vice President, at least in the criminal context, is because the President and the President alone, as we often note, is the one who wields the executive power of which Article 2 of the Constitution speaks. That's it. It's not the Vice President, it's not the Attorney General, it's not the Secretary, it's not the coffee boy. It's no one. No one. No one other than the President of the United States, period. Full stop, end of story. That. That's it. So this notion that you can then take this court case which applies to criminal immunity for the present and then somehow try to apply it for non criminal privilege for the Vice President doesn't even pass the laugh test. The other thing is that, is that the Trump versus United States case had to do with core constitutional authority. They said that there is absolute immunity for conduct that falls within the conclusive and preclusive jurisdiction of Article 2. So for core Article 2 presidential power, you can't prosecute. So holding aside even the, the immunity privilege versus prosecution distinction there, this fails as well, because what Biden's talking about here has to do with talking about the Ghost Rider. Okay. You may or may not feel sympathetic for Joe Biden. I don't personally feel particularly sympathetic, to be honest with you, for the guy, you may or may not feel sympathetic for him. But one thing this is not talking to a ghostwriter about Beau Biden and the tragedy that that was, and so forth and so forth. One thing it is not, it is definitely not core article two authority. Now so called Dr. Jill Biden is actually also in the news. This is a particularly juicy one. Before I get to that, I do want to tell you about our final sponsor for today's show, which is the brand new film, the Untold True Story of D Day. So from Focus Features and the producers of Darkest Hour comes the new movie, the Untold True Story of D day. In the 72 hours leading up to the largest seaborne invasion history, General Dwight D. Eisenhower faced an impossible decision that would determine the fate of the war. As Allied forces prepare to land, two massive storms converge over Normandy. Behind closed doors, with the clock ticking, General Eisenhower must decide. Send 300,000 men into nature's unforgiving fury or delay and risk losing the war itself. There is no safe option, only consequences. One decision would change the world forever. On May 29, that will be tomorrow. Pressure the Untold True Story of D Day will come out. I have seen this film in full again. I know a thing or two about American history. I have actually learned quite a bit more. I had no idea frankly that meteorology and weather forecasting had such an incredible role to play in Eisenhower's decision to go ahead and to make the call that D day would be June 6th and not June 5th or any other dates. And amazing stuff, actually. It's really fantastic film. So on May 29th you can experience this powerful and inspiring story of courage, sacrifice and the mission that gave the free revolution world hope. Pressure the Untold True Story of D day. It's rated PG13. It's only in theaters May 29th with special engagements in Dolby Cinema. Go ahead and check out beginning tomorrow the Untold True Story of D Day. So I mentioned that so called Dr. Jill Biden is still in the news as well. It is not just Uncle Joe who's in the news. The Biden family really, really trying to make the rounds. I wonder why they're trying to stay relevant. It seems like a pretty, pretty desperate plea to me. So, so called Dr. Joe Biden. By the way, she's not actual real PhD doctor. That's why I do the whole cheeky so called Dr. Jill thing. She says now that she was frightened when she watched her husband Uncle Joe in the now infamous late June 2024 CNN presidential debate. She was frightened, she now says, because she was worried that her hubby was having a stroke on stage. Let's go ahead and play this clip.

[A]

Were you horrified as you saw it unfold? I wasn't horrified. I was frightened because I had never ever seen Joe like that.

[B]

Before or since.

[A]

Never or since? Yes. Or never seen him like that.

[B]

Never? No.

[A]

What happened?

[B]

I don't know what happened.

[A]

I mean, when I, as I watched it, I thought, oh my God, he's having a stroke and it scared me to death.

[B]

Okay, there is one word to call this woman and that is liar. Actually, I have a second word. It's called Macbeth because she is also Macbeth. Let's take these one at a time. So you might ask to tie these two pieces together, why would Joe Biden be trying to suppress, suppress this conversation that he had with his memoir Ghost rider back in 2017. Now the other reason besides just trying to stay in the news is because presumably those transcripts, those audio tapes would show that this dude was losing his mind. Well, well, well, before even 2020 when he ran for president and ultimately defeated the Donald Trump. That really is the reason there. And I think that that's pretty obvious there. That takes us then to so called Dr. Jill. Dr. Jill is lying through her teeth. She is saying that this was not like Joe anytime. First of all, Joe Biden was an infamous, an infamous gaffe machine. For decades, dude was literally best known in the public light as a gaffe machine. Every other thing out of his mouth was just a misstatement or misattribution or, or some sort of, or some form of other. Just, just blatant misstatement. But it clearly got worse in recent years. We did see this on the campaign trail as recently as the 2019, 2020 Democratic presidential primary, on that Democratic primary debate stage. But I think we probably saw it a lot earlier. That's the whole point of this new Joe Biden lawsuit. Even more to the point, after that infamous CNN debate, after that debate, that very evening, that very evening, Joe Biden and Joe Biden went to a local Waffle House, believe this debate was in Atlanta, Georgia. They went to a local Waffle House house and Dr. Jill was saying, oh, Joe, you did so well. You're wonderful. So how to square this circle? You can't have it both ways, lady. Either he did wonderful or you thought he was having a stroke. So which is it? Pick one. You can't have it both ways. But it's even worse than that. We know for a fact, it is undisputed, that in the very, very shadowy cigar smoke, proverbial or literal backrooms where the Democratic elite was deciding ultimately to do the bloodless coup whereby they swapped out Joe Biden for Kamala Harris at that time, we know that Joe Biden was the number one booster for Joe Biden. You have Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi on the other side, among others. You basically had Joe Biden because she's Lady Macbeth with this ever, ever, ever lustful zeal and yearning for power. She was on the other side. She was pushing for Joe until the very, very last don on day. Why? Because she loves power. And she was willing to lie through her teeth about her husband's mental and physical state in order to try to get that power. What does that say about a wife? What does that say about a woman? What does it say about a human being? Nothing good. This woman, frankly, should be with her husband in a nursing home, tending to him, making up for the years and years of abuse, the elder abuse that she put him through. Instead, she's doing these kind of interviews with CBS News lying through her teeth. The good news that America is not buying it. Folks. Have a great rest of your evening. Josh Hammer signing off. We'll be right back. As always, tomorrow,

[C]

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