Beverly Kane (3:35)

Thank you, Warrick. It is so nice to be here.

Warwick Schiller (3:38)

Oh, it's great to have you here. You know, I at the start I would do the introduction and I will have read out your long bio, which has got some really interesting parts to it. But why don't you tell us to share with the listeners what what it is you're doing in the world right now and then I want to kind of maybe unravel some of that and unravel how you got from point A to point B.

Beverly Kane (4:02)

What I'm doing right now is my 23rd year in equine Guided Psychospiritual development. And that's an umbrella term that includes the work I do at Stanford, which the jewel in my crown is a course called Equanimity. It's upon E Q I N E I M I T Y, subtitled Stress Reduction and Emotional Self Regulation in the Company of Horses. And that course uses Qigong, which is a tai chi like moving meditation with and optionally on horses. A second course I do is called Medicine and Horsemanship and it's mostly for medical students, but we end up having business students, law students and engineering students and some doctors and nurses and PA students. Stanford has a good PA program and that teaches communication, teamwork, leadership and self care to mostly undergraduate students. And the final activity in both Equanimity and Medicine and Horsemanship is a meditation ride to music. It's a walk only bareback meditation ride in an arena with our wonderful lesson horses. And the third main thing that I do, which is actually on campus, the other two are on the ranch on campus. I teach medical Tai Chi. It's called Medical because the first part of it is a journal club, but where we study the peer reviewed literature on the health benefits of Tai Chi and qigong. And then the second hour is practice. And in recent years that I teach what I call kind of quantum Tai Chi. And people mean different things by that buzzword. And if there's time, I can explain what I mean by quantum in that setting and that's what I do.

Warwick Schiller (6:27)

I would love to hear about what you mean by quantum in that setting. There's a lot of things you said in there I'd love to actually Unravel. One of the notes I'd had to ask you what psychospiritual development actually means and you kind of hinted at it there, but when it to comes, can you go further into what, what you mean by. Because you've got, you know, you work in equine guided psychospiritual development. What's the full understanding of psychospiritual development?

Beverly Kane (6:59)

Psychospiritual development takes, tries to take. I try to take people from the deepest place that they're willing to go to a place of more peace and quiet and contentment, if not joy. The people that I associate with and that I've met through the work at Stanford, I've been at Stanford off and on for 35 years and I've worked in the corporate world in Silicon Valley here and people have a lot of stress and they don't always. And what gets rewarded is intellectual functioning. Intellectual functioning and achievement. It's a very achievement Stanford and Silicon Valley corporations. I've been at Apple and WebMD and Philips. It's very achievement oriented, it's very intellectually oriented. And the intellect is often what causes our stress. That and the emotional attachment to achievement. And what's happened in the last, I would say 20 years since the dot com bust in Silicon Valley that was an economic downturn. While a lot, a lot of the startups finished down, people have been looking at what's beyond achievement, what's beyond the intellect, what is deep inside them. And as you know, horses tend to bring that out for reasons that aren't entirely clear scientifically. And I, I do hope we get to talk about science and spirit. But people are ready to develop psychologically and spiritually. And what's interesting for me is to figure out where people are at when they come. The going in proposition is stress reduction and from there we can talk about spirit, we can talk about God. It's a feeling out process of where people are at and where people are willing to go. How deep, how sensitive, how high. You know, I've had corporate people that end up asking me for tarot readings, which I've done for 40 years also, and, or crying into the horses. It's, it's a real adventure.

Warwick Schiller (9:49)

You know, it's interesting. I, I don't know much about tarot readings. Well, I've not really had it, I've not really experienced it before. And here probably a couple of weeks ago there was a little, they called it a consciousness festival down just south of us here that we went to. It was just in the park in Atascadero or Templeton, one or the other. It was just a group of little tents, and it was all about consciousness. But there was a tarot girl there. And I'm like, you know what? That's something I haven't done. It wasn't like I was searching for answers. I was almost like, hey, I know where my life's heading. I know what's going on. I wonder, will what she say? Kind of match. And it was insane. Like, I. I've got a weird life that, you know, my life's kind of turned out. It's. It's not the normal. And she nailed every single part of it with the cards. And I was flabbergasted. So I didn't learn anything new, except I learned that, wow, there's a lot to be said for tarot.

Beverly Kane (10:57)

Yeah, the cards do tend to align with synchronicities. They're like a weather report, but it's more about synchronicity. And here again we get into what the quantum universe is like in terms of space and time and telepathy and all these weird kinds of phenomena. People usually come to Tarot with a very specific question. And the thing to remember is that the tarot doesn't tell the future. It's not a fortune telling device. It's not a fortune telling game. But I think, like you found, it synchronizes with things that are going on in your life. And the cards are so visual. Do you know which deck this person used?

Warwick Schiller (11:50)

Sorry, no. I know absolutely nothing about it. So I didn't know. I didn't even know there was different decks.

Beverly Kane (11:54)

Oh, there's hundreds of decks going back to the Middle Ages in Italy. It's quite a collector's item. And people make their own decks through one thing and another. I use the Waite Writer deck because the images are most accessible to people. There are Egyptian images and Christian iconography and kind of very eclectic set of images.

Warwick Schiller (12:27)

What was the name of the deck you said you used?

Beverly Kane (12:29)

The Waite Rider deck.

Warwick Schiller (12:32)

Weight as in heavy.

Beverly Kane (12:33)

Rider as in no W a I T e rider. R I D E R. Or is it R Y D?

Warwick Schiller (12:43)

Was that someone's name? Is that.

Beverly Kane (12:45)

Yes, it's two people's names, I think. Okay, wait, was the. I think Waite is the card person. I think Patricia Ryder might have been the. Now I've got that wrong. Some people know that is the artist.

Warwick Schiller (13:01)

But yeah, okay. Yeah, so I've had. Okay, it makes sense now. I've had several people in the podcast. One who created her own deck and someone else who did the artwork for the deck of the other person who did the. I think Kim McElroy did a deck and then Nika Quinn, who was on the podcast, she did the artwork for actually this thing on the wall behind me up here, that's one of Nika Queen's.

Beverly Kane (13:25)

Oh, beautiful. Yeah. So, yes, Kim McElroy did Linda Kohanoff's deck, her original way of the horse deck, which was beautiful. And then Kim and another woman, Sandra Wallen, who's an equine assisted therapist in Canada, just recently put out another absolutely gorgeous deck with a book of interpretations. It's all horses. Both decks are horses. And the interpretations are very, very deep, psychologically deep explorations.

Warwick Schiller (14:12)

Yes. And now, well, I don't understand more about them than I did before, but after that experience, I'm like, holy cow, that was spot on. And it's, you know, if you didn't know me, it'd be very hard to spot on where I'm at in life right now, because it's not the average sort of thing going on. So that was super cool. The other explanation I was going to ask you about, because I asked you about psychospiritual development. The other explanation, you said you wanted to talk about what the word quantum means to you.

Beverly Kane (14:43)

Right. So quantum, which, as you know, is a word that gets thrown around. It's kind of a buzzword. Not as bad, not a little bit worse than AI, I would think. People, people, AI is a little bit more accessible, but quantum reality, quantum physics, Quantum theory has three important meanings for the way that I think we can actually live our lives. One is that in quantum reality. And at this point, I'd like to recommend the book Quantum Reality by Nick Herbert, who is a physicist and tantric poet living in this area.

Warwick Schiller (15:32)

A physicist and a tantric poet. Okay.

Beverly Kane (15:35)

Yeah, yeah. He's 87 years old and so into his sexuality, it's amazing.

Warwick Schiller (15:42)

What's his name? Nick Herbert.

Beverly Kane (15:44)

Nick Herbert. He did his doctorate in physics at Stanford and then he was part of our San Francisco parapsychology research group, which.

Warwick Schiller (15:57)

Is another thing I really want to uncover because I kind of looked up that a little bit and I'm like, I really want to hear about that. But, sorry, let's quantum thing first.

Beverly Kane (16:08)

So the quantum universe for me is a few things. One, it's. Everything is in a state of possibility, and it only becomes an actuality when there's a measurement made. And that measurement can be an observer. There's the parable of Schrodinger's cat, which is both dead and alive until somebody looks inside the box. So there's. In quantum physics, there's something called the Schrodinger wave equation, which is an equation that describes all these possibilities. Infinite, infinite, infinite possibilities. And in the book Quantum Reality, Nick Herbert's book, where he describes about 12 different theories of quantum reality, there's the many. There's one called the many worlds theory that I grasp on to. Hold on to because it describes these infinite possibilities. The sidebar on that, if we get a chance to talk about it, is the set material that might be too far out. But. But it. Exactly.

Warwick Schiller (17:24)

That's not too far out. Actually. I had a. I had a lady on the podcast named Dr. Alison Brown who is actually a channeler of some sort of alien entity or something. And I actually got an email from her just yesterday. She's writing another book and she wanted me to read it and maybe make a, you know, like, be a little contributor to the front to say something about the book. But no, that's. That is not out of the possibility for conversation on this conversation.

Beverly Kane (17:49)

No job too small. All so. So the world of possibilities where when we do what's called collapsing this wave function, we create an actuality. And so, for instance, things aren't. Aren't linear. The second implication of this theory is that time is not linear. It's linear because our physical human brains are built to experience time as past, present, and future. But that's not how the universe is, according to quantum theory and theories that go way back to time reversal diagrams. So according to quantum theory and according to Seth, we can change the past as well as the present and as well as the future by collapsing the wave function with our consciousness to some other probable past where maybe we didn't have trauma and we didn't have sickness and we didn't have whatever happened to us. And more accessibly, probably for our linear human consciousness, the future is plastic like that, too. The future exists as all these possibilities. And by visualization, by intention, by the emotion, particularly of love, we can collapse the wave function for the future events that we would like to attract. And lots of the new age literature talks about the law of attraction and visualization and intention and the power of positive thinking. And it's all more or less explained by quantum theory. And here I want to note that quantum theory doesn't prove anything. It doesn't prove any of the things that I'm saying. It's a model. It's a model for things that we translate into our experience, translate into consciousness. But so far, nothing's been proven, certainly not quantum entanglement, which is a very poetic thing to talk about, but it's not been proved in macro systems like people and horses. So there's the world of possibilities, the world of time reversal, and this notion of the quantum leap between states. And that's kind of a subset of the idea that time isn't linear. So, for instance, miracle healing isn't. And I've seen so much of it in. In. In my career as a physician. Some of it. I can't say so much. I've seen some. It's not necessarily a linear process where things slowly get better and then the person is cured, but it's a quantum leap into that possibility, that probability described by Schrodinger's wave equation, where the person is cured. And if you look at the research on the miracles at Lourdes, I think there are now 93 authenticated miracles that the church has authenticated through medical records, through scientific means that represent that kind of miracle healing, that kind of quantum leap.

Warwick Schiller (21:28)

I have lots of questions not that. And I don't have questions about that because you're preaching to the choir here. I have a bone to pick with the. The term New age. You mentioned, you know, new age stuff, because everything I read that people say is part of the New age movement is like indigenous practices. It should be called the old age movement for me, not the new age movement. It's like, I don't. I. I can't figure out how it. How it ended up being called New age when all of those practices are, you know, indigenous or shamanic or both in. In nature, you know, that's. They're not. They're not new. They're old. So anyway, that's. That always totally agrees me, totally puzzles me how it got that name. And you were talking about quantum, you know, quantum physics, quantum mechanics, quantum theory. And you say it's not provable. But don't you think things like. So they're like the double split experiment kind of make us kind of go, well, there it is.

Beverly Kane (22:35)

Well, it's proven Quantum theory and quantum mechanics are provable. There are many experiments. There's the double slit experiment. There are all. Quantum entanglement has been experimentally shown for. For subatomic particles, not for humans and horses. What my little bone to pick is people who extrapolate that research on particle physics to the human experiment, experience and claim that those experiments prove our experiences. And you can't really make that leap because quantum theory is a model for telepathy, for miracle cures, for the closeness that we feel with horses. But. And this gets into my biggest bone to pick is how we use science.

Warwick Schiller (23:44)

Well, let's hear it. You're surrounded by scientists, you're at Stanford, So let's hear. Let's hear your bone to pick about. How are you science?

Beverly Kane (23:51)

Well, let me preface that since you said I'm surrounded by scientists at Stanford, last two weeks ago, we had a little dinner conference meeting party with the integrative medicine physicians at Stanford, and I have very little contact with my colleagues there because I am literally out in the back 40 doing the courses at the ranch. So I was delighted to be able to meet with these colleagues who are doing integrative medicine at Stanford. And I was even more delighted to see how far integrative medicine has come at Stanford, where two of the people there headed up a division of pediatric integrative medicine. And I thought, way to go, Stanford. So, but, you know, science isn't everything. Are we talking about science and spirit now?

Warwick Schiller (24:58)

We can talk about anything you like. You were the one that. You're the one that said that you have a bone to pick about something to do with science.

Beverly Kane (25:05)

Well, yeah. And the thing that connected me to you, work. I had heard about you kind of peripherally with some horse friends that had gone to one of your clinics. And then my favorite aunt in upstate New York sent me the New York Times article on paper, which I liked. And then I listened to your. The podcast that you did for Rupert Isaacson, and you said, I want to read you something. I took notes from that podcast.

Warwick Schiller (25:49)

Is this the one when I was on Rupert's podcast?

Beverly Kane (25:51)

Yes, March 18th. March 18th of this year. And you said, I tend to come to the science from the back direction, figure out things empirically. And then I read stuff that explains scientifically why that works, unquote. And then work. You, you mentioned, remember the mustang who fell asleep in the clinic and how later polyvagal theory seemed to explain that behavior?

Warwick Schiller (26:21)

Yes.

Beverly Kane (26:22)

And you go on to say, quote, it's kind of like these days, scientists, you know, like quantum entanglement and all that sort of stuff can explain religion and shamanic things in scientific terms. But, you know, Drumroll. There were empiric things first. And that when I heard that, I said, amen and hallelujah. Somebody who doesn't need science to justify what they do, much less pseudoscience. And so in integrating science with spirit, what I see that dismays me a little bit is People trying to validate what they do using science and using it pseudoscientifically. And what I'm reminded of, there's a line, there's a film called the Treasure of the Sierra Madre with Humphrey Bogart. And a famous line from that film is that the banditos are facing off with Humphrey Bogart. And they say, I don't gotta show you no stinking badges. And I say, we don't got to show you no stinking science to validate and justify the things that we do and the things that we feel with horses, because you ain't going to get there. One of the, you know, I mentioned the journal club that we do for Taiji and it's very hard to study Tai Chi using Western scientific methods. So first I introduced the students to conventional gold standard Western science for doing medical research. And there are all these stipulations, like it has to be prospective, double blind, case control, objective, replicatable, measurable. And usually you have a single variable. So you have, if you're testing like a new pill or say you're testing penicillin, so you have a pill with a single ingredient called penicillin and you have a condition like an infection, say blood poisoning that you're looking at. So you give somebody penicillin and you have a placebo group and then you test, you do blood cultures on them and you see if the infection went away. One ingredient, one outcome, one test. With equine assisted learning and horse training and all the work we do, and Tai chi, it's a multi component intervention. There are so many active ingredients. The model that we use is from Harvard Medical School, the Harvard Bagua Model for studying Tai Chi as a multi component complex intervention. And you can completely apply that model to equine assisted psycho spiritual development. Everything that you do in a clinic, everything that we do in our classes and clinics, it's very hard to study, much less justify scientifically. There have been a few studies, specifically those funded by the Horse Human Research foundation, that are pretty well done and quantitative. Those tend to be studies in therapeutic writing where you can take X rays and measure, you know, make measures on, on joint angles and things like that. But, but the psychological stuff is really hard to measure. And you don't need to. What I'm saying is I don't need to. People need to have that attitude of yours that I just read that they have the confidence in what they do in the series of their own experience and what they know in their hearts. And they don't got to show nobody no stinking science.

Warwick Schiller (31:02)

I wanted to circle back around to. You were talking about the possibility of there being infinite possibilities all going on at the same time.

Beverly Kane (31:14)

Right.

Warwick Schiller (31:16)

And I've had some experiences to where I feel like I know exactly when we change from one possibility to another. At the time, I didn't know. And then I was listening to a Tim Ferriss podcast. He was talking to a guy, and a guy had a similar experience and he explained it like, right then I made a decision that made the Blu Ray disc of life skip to a different track. You know what I mean?

Beverly Kane (31:42)

Exactly. Good visual.

Warwick Schiller (31:46)

And it's kind of like if people are having a hard time wrapping their head around it. So imagine. No, I would explain it. Imagine everything in the world right now is doing what it's doing at exactly this moment. But the next sentence I say to you, Beverly Kane might change you. And I might switch to a different track on this Blu Ray disc of life, but everybody else might stay exactly the same because there is infinite, infinite possibilities to it. I don't know if that's a good explanation, but I have had some experiences to where I know exactly when I. And it was about surrendering, surrendering fear. And that moment, I feel like it was a test. And if you choose option A, this happens, and if you choose option B, this happens. Actually, I'll tell you. I'll tell you the quick story, the one not my experience, because I don't need to go into that one, but one that I heard. So Tim Ferriss had a guy named Boyd Varti on his podcast. You know who Boyd Varti?

Beverly Kane (32:59)

I don't.

Warwick Schiller (33:00)

He's a South African guy who. His family has a game reserve in South Africa. It's one of the few places you're guaranteed to go and see leopards. Boyd Vardy has written the Line Tracker's Guide to Life. Him and Martha Beck used to do a lot of stuff together. She does retreats at his place called Londolozi in South Africa. Anyway, he was telling a story about one time he was at his family's house in Johannesburg. He was asleep and he got woken up with a loud noise. And he looked up in the morning and there was this guy had a gun to his head, drags him out of bed. And I think his mother and sister were in the house and they already had them tied up. And they wanted money. And they said, where's the money? And he said, there's no money here. And the guy said, there's always money in the house. And there was three of Them, I think there's always money with people like you, you know. And he said, my father has the money and he's not here. And this guy was so furious, he. Drug boy party either down the stairs or out the door. But got him in the driveway, got him on his knees. He's got the gun right on Boyd Vardy's forehead, and he's furious, and he looks like he's about to pull the trigger. And Boyd Vardy said, I just. Right then I just. I just relaxed, completely relaxed, Just surrendered. And he said, as I did that, the guy looked like he woke up out of a dream. He looked at the gun, looked at Boyd, looked at his friends in a. Like, a very confused, like, how did I end up here anyway? He said to his friends, we need to leave. And he said to Boyd, can you go inside and get my car keys that are on the counter? And it was almost like Boyd Vardy said, at that moment when that guy put the gun to my head, if I'd have been afraid, if I had been in fear, bang, Trigger would have went off. That was where that the universe was going to go to. But he said, I made a decision. Not he made a decision, but he did something. He surrendered. And it was almost like the. The Blu Ray disc of life skipped to something else. And this guy almost didn't know how he ended up there. The bad guy. Yeah, he just, like, snapped, like, popped into this new reality. And he's. He looked like he had no idea why he was even in the driveway holding a gun to a guy's head. And I had not exactly the same experience, but something similar enough to where I'm like, that's what happened. Like, you surrender and it. You know, there's. The other reality shows up. But yeah, that's. That's my story about that.

Beverly Kane (35:33)

Yeah, that's a great story. And it is a good illustration of what it feels like to make a quantum leap between realities there. There are people that have similar stories about almost being in a car accident. And then at the last minute, they don't crash as if they collapsed the wave function to another reality where they did not have the accident. I think probably my feeling is that everybody in their lifetimes makes many, many, many quantum leaps among the different realities. I think if a person looks back, if we look back at times where we can't remember how we got from one place to another or just not a physical place, but there are gaps in our memory that have to do with our schooling, with our families, with our friends with different things in life. And I think those gaps might be where we've made quantum leaps to other realities. The trick, which is the core teaching of a lot of practices like the law of attraction and meditation and intentionality, and a lot of the visual meditations where you visualize the outcome, those are ways of volitionally collapsing the wave function and jumping into that other reality. And I think where people get hung up is they think it has to be a gradual process, like, oh, I want more money in my life. And so I have to do X, Y, and Z rather than just visualizing that place that we're going to quantum leap to. And I need to do that with my horse. I need to get to that place where she's not rushing home. But, yeah, you.

Warwick Schiller (37:44)

You mentioned before about, you know, going back and changing the past. And I have heard of. And I don't think it was an. I don't know if it was an experiment. I think it was an experiment, but there was something that happened. A group of people experienced something, and when they interviewed them all, they all experienced it the same way. But then they had everybody but one visualize the thing happening differently or meditate on it. I forget what it was, and I forget the time span they did it. But when they went back and interviewed the one person who knew nothing about the experiment, you know, their memory had been changed by the other people doing some sort of. I don't know if it was a visualization thing, whatever, but they went back and the person had said, you know, I don't know what it was. You know, I got on a bus and went across town. And when they went back, I got in a taxi, went across. I don't know what the thing was. It could have been something big, something small. But they actually change someone's past through everybody else who was at that place at that time changing this. I just.

Beverly Kane (38:53)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's another example. I think that's a little harder for us to grasp because we put so much energy into reliving traumas and thinking that the past is the past. And, you know, people need to go through those processes. But I think there's room for the other view, that the past is not written in stone like our brains think it is. But there you get into this idea of retro causality, where things from the future actually change things in the present. Some of the best work in retro causality is. Has been done by a man named Dean Radin. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Warwick Schiller (39:39)

I love his. One of my favorite books is Dean Radin's Big Magic. Not big magic. That's Elizabeth.

Beverly Kane (39:44)

Real magic.

Warwick Schiller (39:45)

Real magic.

Beverly Kane (39:45)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Dean. Dean was part of the San Francisco Parapsychology Research Group, and he's up here at the Institute of Noetic Sciences in Petaluma. And he's done amazing work in retrocausality for people that don't know what that is. A simple description of what he does is he shows he's recording skin conductance, which is a proxy measurement for stress, in a way. And he shows people a series of images. Some of the images are neutral and some of the images are disturbing. And what he found is that people's skin conductance changes before they see the images, so that the images that they see five seconds later have actually changed their skin conductance. Five seconds before the image came out. Three to five seconds. And that work has been replicated numerous times. One of my favorite replications is by Roland McCready of the HeartMath Institute, who did it with the heart. He looked at skin conductance, but he also looked at brain waves and heart waves on the EEG and found the same thing. That work has been done in a few animals, notably Bengalese parrots and earthworms. Same thing. These animals responded to disturbing images of their predators. In each case, I think it was seconds before the stimulus was actually given. And so that gives us a whole perspective on changing the past, influencing the present from the future, influencing the past from the present. Very exciting work. And I think. Wasn't Alicia Main going to do something like that with Dean Radin and horses?

Warwick Schiller (42:05)

I'm not sure if she was going to work with Dean Radin or not. I don't recall that. But I was just going to say we are about 40 minutes into this podcast and we're off in weirdo land. But I want to not bring us back to, quote, unquote, normal land, but I want to talk about the San Francisco parapsychology research group that you were involved in, because from what I've read, they were looking into things like telekinesis and remote viewing and things like that. So this is not something we are taught at school. This is not something that the, you know, the powers that be that will tell us about. But there was a government project called MK Ultra during the Cold War that studied this. And the US Government used parapsychology, used remote viewing to figure out what was going on in the Kremlin. And so this is the US military. So you think of the US Military as very straight laced. This is this is real, this is not sort of thing. And I think they, pardon my French, bullshit us into looking at the world a certain way. But they've been using this stuff for a long time. They just don't tell us we. Because if we understood this, we'd be a lot harder to control.

Beverly Kane (43:49)

Exactly.

Warwick Schiller (43:51)

But yeah. So let's, let's talk about this parapsychology research group because I'm fascinated by it.

Beverly Kane (43:57)

That the San Francisco Parapsychology Research Group was a group of mostly psychologists and physicists. The people that you're talking about that worked with the CIA and this has all come out publicly were Russell Targ and Hal Puthoff. Russell is the leading, a leading, the leading figure in remote viewing. And one of his experiments was with one of the missions to the moon. So they looked at extrasensory perception from thousands and thousands of miles away. Dean Radin, as I mentioned, was a speaker and a frequent attendee. And most of these people were involved in some sort of parapsychology research, whether it was ESP or wasn't. I don't remember anybody doing telekinesis. There were some people from I think Mount Sinai in Montefiore in New York that were doing dream research, precognitive dream research. Fascinating group. The guy who did it, was it Stan Groff who did holotropic breathing?

Warwick Schiller (45:21)

Stan Groff?

Beverly Kane (45:22)

Was that Stan Groff? Yeah, he was there, came to meetings, spoke, you know, we had some interesting panel discussions. We wrote a book with a multi author anthology. What was interesting, touching. Back to what you said about the Russians. The Russians and the Americans had two very different theories about what was going on. I don't, we might, I don't want to get back in the weeds again. But the Russians thought it was all fields.

Warwick Schiller (45:55)

We never left the weeds.

Beverly Kane (45:56)

Oh, are we still in the weeds?

Warwick Schiller (45:58)

I just wanted to make sure that people listening knew that the government, the US government is off in the weeds too. Even though they don't tell you they are.

Beverly Kane (46:04)

Right? Yeah, yeah. Our taxes at work. I, you know, I'd rather they go there than certain other places, but yeah, so the Russians thought it was all, it was field, like electromagnetic fields. And the Americans say, no, it's not fields, it's quantum reality. It's the way the quantum universe works. And you know, I, my, how I got involved in that is interesting. So I went to the University of California San Francisco Medical School. And in those days Wednesdays were. It was your elective day. And where that came from is that for decades Wednesday was the Doctor's day to play golf. And so honestly. And so that was why that was our elective day. And for my elective, I had connected with this electrical engineer named Henry Dagon, who's now over the Rainbow Bridge. And he was the scion, the heir to the Dagon stuffed animal fortune. If you look at your stuffed animals, at least from years ago, they almost all say Dagon. And he had a sort of parapsychology lab at his home in Pacific Heights in San Francisco. And I would go over there on Wednesday afternoons and see what he was doing. He was doing Kirlian photography, which is looking at sort of auras around leaves and plants and things. And so I was in one of his experiments where he wired me up, and I don't remember what it was looking at. I remember I held two metal cylinders in my hand, and they put me in a cage called a Faraday cage.

Warwick Schiller (48:04)

Faraday cage to stop any electrical influence.

Beverly Kane (48:07)

Correct. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so. And lots of experiments in those days and maybe still were done in Faraday cages to block any sense that any electrical signals. So no electrical. So. And those experiments worked, whatever they were. It might have been an ESP experiment. I'm not sure if they even told me what they were doing, but they showed that it wasn't an electrical effect like the Russians thought it was. But, yeah, the government, I mean, who knows what they're doing now? I don't think they're doing any of that research, but it was interesting. And that didn't come out for years and years and years that Russell was doing that. But now there's a movie on it.

Warwick Schiller (48:57)

I. I've been listening to a number of podcasts with different podcasters who have guests who were, you know, like, one lady, she was in the. Maybe the MK Ultra, but the remote viewing program, and. And, you know, and she was a. You know, she wasn't in the. She wasn't in the army, but they basically put her in the army to do all the remote viewing stuff. And it was fascinating. And there's another one. Have you ever heard of a guy named Colonel Gerald Alexander?

Beverly Kane (49:30)

No.

Warwick Schiller (49:32)

He was in charge of the whole remote viewing thing, telekinesis thing. He wrote a book called Men who Stare at Goats. They were trying to figure out if they could get soldiers energetically to stop enemy combatants. Hearts and.

Beverly Kane (49:49)

Whoa.

Warwick Schiller (49:50)

But the book is called Men who Stare at the Men who Stare at Goats. They were. They were practicing goats, and these guys could get goats to drop dead by looking at them a certain way with a Certain energy and a certain intention or whatever. But. But that was. That podcast was fascinating because he's like, he was on the front lines of all of that stuff. But he told a great story and I've mentioned on the podcast before, so I rehashed the whole thing too, bit. But he said that the leading lie detector guy for the army or the CIA or whatever lived in New York City and had houseplants like hetero, lived outside in Washington, you know, had house plants. And one day he was watering his house plants and he thought, I wonder how long it takes the water to reach the leaves. So he hooked the plants up to like a lie detector because you've got that galvanic skin response thing, you know, and he recorded, you know, what he thought, how long it took the plants to respond, you know, to get the water to the leaves or whatever. But then he left it hooked up. And he noticed over a period of time that the needle thing on the paper was going up and down and doing things. And he was trying to figure out what are these plants responding to. And it turns out he figured out that they were responding to the emotions of the people in the room. So then he's like, nah, it's gotta be something else. So then he actually put the plants and the thing in a Faraday cage, and still the same thing happened. The Faraday cage didn't stop it from happening. And there's a whole. Then they got white blood cells from people and hooked them up to a thing and they could. The white bloods, they would. The person whose white blood cells were hooked up to this thing were trained like CIA operatives who can pass a lie detector test and they would move them in another room or across town or whatever. They give them a lie detector test across town and they would pass that, but their white blood cell was over here in this Faraday cage, would not pass the lie detector test. And it was like, this is just fascinating stuff.

Beverly Kane (51:51)

I think all that stuff is.

Warwick Schiller (51:53)

Is. I think that stuff is so interesting. One of the kind of topics you wrote to me in your email you wanted to bring up was. And I think this is a. I don't know if you even know the connection here, but you said it was about medical tai chi, slash the TV series Kung Fu and David Carradine. What's that all about?

Beverly Kane (52:20)

That series was very important to me. I watched it as a kid and it. I mean, it was just entertaining. But in the last probably 10 years, my husband and I have binge watched it twice through because here's this guy.

Warwick Schiller (52:40)

I have a question. Sorry to interrupt.

Beverly Kane (52:41)

Go ahead. Sorry.

Warwick Schiller (52:43)

Do you know the connection or not?

Beverly Kane (52:45)

Kansas. Kansas.

Warwick Schiller (52:46)

You know Kansas. Okay, good.

Beverly Kane (52:48)

I don't know her personally, but, but.

Warwick Schiller (52:50)

You know that, you know, I'm, we.

Beverly Kane (52:51)

Have friends through Ariana Strozzi.

Warwick Schiller (52:54)

Okay. Okay, good.

Beverly Kane (52:56)

I just didn't, and I just thought it was, I mean, she just did a workshop with Kathy Woods.

Warwick Schiller (53:00)

Okay, good. So you know, the connection.

Beverly Kane (53:01)

Okay, but, but that, that was much later. I, I, I didn't know about Kansas till, you know, after, after the second pass through the binge watching of this old series. Cause here's this guy, David Carradine, who in real life is a Tai chi master and a horseman. And that made a big connection for me because nobody was doing that then. Back in the day when I started doing qigong with horses, I didn't know anybody else doing that. It turns out that there are a bunch of people out there doing somatic horsemanship yoga with horses and Tai chi with horses and somatic experiencing and emdr. But in those days I didn't know anybody who, who combined those two things. And like David essentially did. And, and the other connection is that the character had sort of the last name, as I do. His name was Kwai Chang Kane and he was too. That's right, yeah. Um, and it's interesting because his character refused to ride a horse, would not get on a horse, would not ride. But as I looked into David, who David Carradine was as a person and read his books, he, he definitely did ride horses out there in, what was it, Topanga Canyon or Laurel Canyon or those. Yeah, so, so I think that's one of the first times or at least a very corroborating time influence on understanding the difference between Tai chi and energy and horses.

Warwick Schiller (54:53)

You know, another really interesting, what's so interesting about that is he played that character, but he also, like you said, he practiced those things. Apart from that, but the other really interesting thing is he has no, he's not Asian at all, but looked Asian enough to pass for that particular character for that TV show. You know, he's Italian.

Beverly Kane (55:20)

Yeah, I think they have a lot of Scotch Irish in that family and English and things like that. Yeah, that's kind of, that was a little bit controversial in those days too. Or at least later, not having Asian actors and Native American actors play those roles in the media. But yeah, he definitely looked the part. And then there was a couple of follow on series Kung Fu, the Legend Continues, where he's living in Canada. No horses there. But it gets deeper into the philosophy. It gets very mystical at that point because there is an old Asian guy playing an old Asian, old Chinese sage, and his son is a cop. But, yeah, the relationship between that kind of energy and horses, I didn't know anybody who was really talking about that back in 2000. Ten, maybe four, maybe at least not, not people around here. And I don't know. When did yoga and horses become a thing?

Warwick Schiller (56:33)

You're asking the wrong guy. We could ask Cathie woods, but, yeah, no, I have no idea when those two came together. I'm just the podcast interviewer. I don't know the answer.

Beverly Kane (56:51)

Oh, but you're a longtime horseman. I would think maybe that kind of percolated into your.

Warwick Schiller (56:57)

No, I mean, I'm a longtime horseman, but I was, you know, I was certainly down a pretty straight and narrow path. And I think way back then, if anybody was doing yoga, I think they were a weirdo, you know? Now we've covered a lot of things, but I would like to maybe start asking you some of the questions you chose, because a lot of times what we do on the podcast is if people have chosen questions like you have, we get to the very end and like, oh, I gotta ask you the questions. A lot of times the questions have already been covered in our conversation. But I'm gonna go through your questions here, and apparently you have a question for me. Maybe there'll be.

Beverly Kane (57:37)

I do. Let's save time. How long do you want to go?

Warwick Schiller (57:41)

Oh, these things are usually two hours.

Beverly Kane (57:43)

I know, I know. I've seen that. I, I, I do have a question for you. So we need to save time for that. Or, or I, you know, I can ask you anytime because there's not really a segue into it. But I, I do what I'm excited to talk about. I want to talk about the bees.

Warwick Schiller (58:02)

Oh, okay. I want to talk about the bees. You mentioned this. Okay. Every once in a while, I will come across something I've never heard of before, and then very soon after that, I'll hear of it again and again and again. But reading about you, I came across the term shamanic beekeeping, and I've never heard that term before, and apparently this, because one of the questions is, what do you do to relieve stress? And one of them is shamanic beekeeping. Tell us about shamanic beekeeping.

Beverly Kane (58:37)

I've always loved bees, and I'm not sure why. The story that I told myself, and I'm kind of sticking to it, is that they represent the work ethic and my being a Virgo, I have a very strong work ethic. I'm impatient, I'm busy all the time, busy, busy, busy, busy. But beyond that, I just love bees and they produce sweetness through their busyness. And they only live 42 days. All the worker bees are female. They live on the average of 42 days in the summer. And so it's a short, busy, work oriented life that produces sweetness. So that's the surface story. But I just love, love honeybees. And I semi retired from Stanford in the last couple of years and in the same way I came to horses is like, what do I want to spend more time with now? And it just, I kept getting drawn to the bees and through one thing, another and another. I connected with a bee shaman about two hours north of here who keeps bees. This is sort of natural beemanship. Keeps bees not to get honey, not to she, not to get propolis, not to get wax. Although she does a little, she collects a little bit of the honey when there's a lot. She has bees to have bees, just to be with the bees. Her name is Ariella Daly. I don't think she's written a book yet, but she had a whole table of books. She, she is a beekeeper in the old Celtic shamanic tradition where the, the Celtic tradition has a whole culture of women keeping bees. Think they were called like the melita is a coffee filter, but no, the mellifla something. They were like goddesses, but they were humans and they were shamans, they were bee shamans. And so Ariela is a bee shaman in that tradition where she communes with the bees and tends the bees in a very heartfelt way. She's a bee communicator and on her table were two books that I've since read and, or started to read, which come at bees through two different ways. One is a very shamanic approach, a book called Song of Increase by Jacqueline Freeman. And Jacqueline is in Washington state and I think she keeps bees just to keep bees too. She's a natural agricultural, agriculturalist and her book is full of all these channel transmission from the bees. And they, these transmissions are actually a little, they kind of represent the outskirts of my acceptance of what you can actually get from animals. But I've had some training in animal communication and so I tend to believe them, although they're worded in very sort of intellectual terms. But I believe they come from the bees. And this approach looks at the bees as an organism. So all the bees make up an organism It's a very hive consciousness approach where, yes, each individual bee has a job, but together there's this hive consciousness, this consciousness of an entity, an organism with whom you can communicate. And the other book that my husband just bought me is a book called the Mind of Ab by Lars Chitka. He's a professor in the University of London. And this takes the opposite approach of, you know what. And I just started this book, it's the single bee. And so, so I wanted bees. There are beehives at the ranch, but it's a commercial producer who uses conventional methods of treating with antibiotics and different things like that. And I didn't really have time to become a beekeeper. So I've been taking some workshops with Ariella. And we had had a natural hive of bees on our property many years ago. And I think they disappeared in when we had the colony collapse disorder where a lot of the honeybees died. And I thought, well, maybe I could introduce bees back into that tree. So I had the president of our local beekeepers guild come and look at our oak trees. And she picked one out that has a hollow. I would say it's about a three gallon hollow. And she had her apprentice come and clean out the hollow. And he introduced some comb and some pheromone, some bee pheromone to maybe attract a new hive. And he, he, he boarded up the hollow with some boards, just leaving a hole for bees. And the, the woman from the beekeepers guild said, well, it's past the swarm season. I don't know if we can get you a swarm or not, but we'll see. The next day she gets this call from some guy who had a swarm of bees in his owl house. And he didn't want the bees in his owl house, so he said, come and get the bees. So they got the bees and they transplanted the bees to our oak tree. And it wasn't a given that they were going to stay, but he brought some comb that they had made in the owl house and some more pheromone. And they had the queen. That was the most important thing. They had the queen and they have settled into this hive. They're, they seem to enjoy it very much. And so I spend a fair amount of time with these bees every day. And it's just been amazing for me relating to these bees just physically, not even psychically, although I do that too, because here are these animals that, unlike my horses, unlike the cats, unlike my husband, unlike my friends, I'm not asking anything from them. I Have absolutely no expectations. I don't need them to come in at a certain time. I don't need them. I don't need to feed them. I don't need to train them. I don't need to ask them to do anything for me. And they're not asking me to do anything for them. And I've had fish before, but that's different because they're. They're in an aquarium. These bees go. I don't know where they go, but there's a lot of lavender and bloom, and it's just. It's such a different kind of relationship than what I've had from my, you know, cats and dogs and horses and rabbits. And I'm still exploring that because this. The hive's only been there for about a month, a couple of months, maybe month and a half. So, yeah, they're very active, very industrious, but they don't seem stressed. I don't get any stress from them. As busy as they are, they don't seem stressed.

Warwick Schiller (66:57)

So they've got the sweet spot to where they're busy, but not. But they're busy, but they're present. They're in the moment. Being busy, not busy for the outcome. Like, you know, I like to quote, you know, like karma yoga. Karma yoga. Focusing on a task with no thought as to the outcome of that task.

Beverly Kane (67:25)

Yeah, yeah.

Warwick Schiller (67:26)

And what's the shamanic part, Hans, can you explain some of that?

Beverly Kane (67:31)

They. While shamanism is different things to different people, but it's the willingness to communicate with the bees psychically and also in some sense, to become a bee. A lot of shamanism has to do with shape shifting and taking on the characteristics of the animal, and not just taking them on, but actually there are stories of people becoming the animal. You know, they summon a leopard, and then they kind of go into that leopard and they run off as the leopard.

Warwick Schiller (68:09)

When Rupert was on my podcast, I had him go into that quite a bit.

Beverly Kane (68:13)

Yeah, yeah. Rupert's got incredible. And. Yeah, and that's. I, you know, I came to you through Rupert, essentially through Joel Dunlop and then Rupert and then to you. So, yeah, I haven't become a bee. What's that movie with that big, tall guy who becomes the fly?

Warwick Schiller (68:39)

Oh, yes.

Beverly Kane (68:40)

Jeff Goldblum.

Warwick Schiller (68:41)

Jeff Goldblum.

Beverly Kane (68:42)

Is it called the fly?

Warwick Schiller (68:44)

I think it's called the fly, but something.

Beverly Kane (68:45)

Yeah, he becomes the fly. I haven't become a bee. But, you know, it's interesting to take on that energy and to say, oh, yeah, I can be really busy and not Stressed out.

Warwick Schiller (68:59)

And, you know, the, the buzzing of a hive of bees is almost like a, you know, a sound bath. Like sound therapy sort of thing?

Beverly Kane (69:11)

Yeah, yeah.

Warwick Schiller (69:12)

That vibration, like if you've ever been in a room full of people where they all do B breath at the same time, it's just. But if you're in a room full of people, like several hundred people who all do that at the same time, it just goes through you. It's like a sound bath. It hits you vibrationally, not auditorily.

Beverly Kane (69:41)

Well, one of the things that Ariela had us do in this little group in the workshop was to sit with the bees and hum. Bees don't have ears, apparently, so they can't actually hear the hum. They can hear vibrations. And unfortunately our house is right on a creek and the bee tree is right on the creek. And so I hear the creek and it's hard to hear the bees. I have to get really up close and. And even then I'm kind of closer to the creek. But I. But they hum. They hum on the note of C above middle C. And I found that to be true. I would pick up their hum and then run inside to our piano. And it does seem to be C above middle C. And somehow they all hum at the same. On that same note.

Warwick Schiller (70:38)

Have you looked into what, like what hurts that note is what you know?

Beverly Kane (70:47)

No, I haven't. And actually my husband, who dabbles as a musician of sorts, has a little device that will tell you what the key is. And I keep meaning to go out to the hive with that device and. And see what notes we pick up. So that would be interesting. There's all kinds of work with sound, especially drumming and craniosacral therapy. I did a workshop where one of the participants went out with the horses and played Tibetan bowls. And that horse just went into the zone. I have pictures of that. He was just mesmerized. So rescue Tennessee Walker.

Warwick Schiller (71:43)

Yeah, so with the. I imagine, because I've heard. I haven't heard of shamanic beekeeping before, but I have heard of people who keep bees to get the honey, but they don't use a beekeeper suit. They go into some sort of meditative state where they connect with the bees somehow and they can go and harvest the honey. And the bees don't touch them.

Beverly Kane (72:07)

Yeah, yeah. A lot of the natural beekeepers do that. And there's some wonderful youtubes of these people in like Bulgaria that are 10th generation beekeepers that, that do that. It depends on the season. Later in the year, the Bees get a little bit more what we call spicy or aggressive. And then even natural beekeepers might put on some protective gear. At this workshop, we started out with protective gear because ariologists didn't know how her bees were going to be. I don't think she had done a workshop there for a long time, if ever. I think this might have been actually the first time she was doing a workshop with this many people. And so we went out there all suited up with veils and gloves and spacesuits, and half an hour later we had shed everything because those bees were so mellow. But she kind of warned us that for the workshop in August, that's the season when you see a lot of robber bees and the bees are spicy, very spicy. And so we might have to don our gear again.

Warwick Schiller (73:20)

Imagine she probably had you guys suit up because I imagine your, your internal energy has a lot to do with it. And, you know, if you've never been around bees before, but you're going to go after a hive of bee with nothing on, you're probably going to have a bit of that fear energy, which, you know. So imagine her easing her, you guys in with the suits till you kind of get relaxed and then you could remove the suits. Might. Might have been a part of that, too.

Beverly Kane (73:45)

Exactly. She didn't know any of us or what our energy was. But it turned out that there were a couple of people there who had begun to keep bees, and everybody there had some kind of meditation practice. And so when we went out and sat with the bees and did our humming, we were very, very kind of internally quiet, serene, projected love to these bees. And as long as you don't go and sit in their flight path, that's. That's a big no. No. You want to stay out of their flight path. They will accept you in a. In a mellow state like that.

Warwick Schiller (74:30)

That's interesting. So if you're in their flight path, what do they do?

Beverly Kane (74:34)

They may initially bop you on the head and the flight path is very narrow. It's just kind of a. It's not anywhere they go. It's just kind of a narrow corridor outside the entrance to the hive. Entrance, exit to the hive. You can sit pretty close to that and they won't do anything. But they, they give you. And I've never had this happen because I've never gotten into the flight path. But they will, they will bean you on the head first. They don't want to sting because they die if they sting. The stinger stays in your body so they'll they'll bump you on the head. And that's, that's a message to step back. They will sting if you don't read the message. They'll kind of give their life for what they perceive as a threat. But that's so rare.

Warwick Schiller (75:24)

But that's, isn't that the thing. So the, the thing, you know, perspectives are interesting and the thing that, the perspective that I have come to from, you know, Rupert talking about hunter gatherers, and I've had a number of people on the podcast who have really got me thinking about horses, not so much differently than I had, but with a deeper understanding is nature's very collaborative and they do things for the good of the whole. So the bee will actually sting you even though they know they're going to die because you're a threat to the whole. Not that you're a threat to, to them.

Beverly Kane (76:01)

Exactly.

Warwick Schiller (76:02)

That's, that's a, that's a huge perspective change from our, you know, capitalistic society sort of thing. That's, that's, Yeah, I feel like for me, that's the message that's kind of comes through the horses, is about how, you know, the, the, the, the thing I'm really on about these days, helping people with their horses, is just having a different perspective. And if you can understand that they do, you know, if they're testing you, they're not trying to dominate you, they're trying to establish, are you still a good leader? Are you still someone I could rely on? You know, leadership is like servant leadership for the good of the whole versus for the self. And yeah, that's, that's, you know, the more you understand about, you think about all the things that we or the general public is more aware of now, like, say, like mycelium, the whole mycelium network and how that works. And, you know, we all grew up on Darwin, survival of the fittest sort of thing, whereas it's, you know, yes, it's the survival of the fittest within the species, but the species themselves are very collaborative with each other way more than we ever really thought. And I think when you can start to view the, and that's pretty much like an indigenous worldview sort of thing. And when you're going to start to look at the world a bit more that way, I think that's what's going to lead us forward out of the, you know, the situation we've got ourselves in.

Beverly Kane (77:35)

I hope you're right. There are studies of altruism in the animal world. There are some studies in primates and what's that bird where the mother will lay down and lie down and play dead to protect her young? Are those killed here kill deer? Yeah, yeah, we have. They build their. Their nests in our polo field. Yeah, yeah, they'll. Yeah, yeah.

Warwick Schiller (78:01)

A lot of them here too. Yeah.

Beverly Kane (78:03)

So. So there is altruism in the animal world. And the bees are the best example of that. Communal and everything for the good of the colony, for the good of the organism. Not the selfish gene and not the survival of the fittest. And.

Warwick Schiller (78:27)

You know, before when you were talking about the, like the colony of the bee as a. As a thing, an organism, you know, as. As an organism, you think about. We think of us as a. I'm a human, I'm a person, I'm a one thing. But if you think about all the bacteria and flora, all the parts of us that if you could look at it on a microscope, we are a colony as well. But we think of ourselves as a thing. But we have a consciousness that all these little bits come together to create this thing. But it's a lot of little things, not just a thing.

Beverly Kane (79:02)

Yeah. I think Western society, industrial society, is a very mechanistic society. It's all about the Newtonian physics of separate entities. And one thing, that one reason people are so enamored of quantum physics is this idea of entanglement, which doesn't really mean everybody's one, but poetically it does, where people are searching for this oneness and, and it's so, you know, it's easier to find it with horses because they do tend to be so forgiving and non judgmental. And they're big. They're just big. And you can have this whole body connection with all your arms and legs and viruses and bacteria running around your body, and then you can take on some of their bacteria, too. I share apples with my horses. And one bite for you. Bite for me. Take on some bacteria. Build up your immune system.

Warwick Schiller (80:14)

Exactly. Let's get to the rest of these questions here. Your first question, because they go in order. What book do you recommend most? Not your favorite book, but the book that you tell others about the most.

Beverly Kane (80:28)

I recommend a book called the Self Aware Universe by Amit Goswami. This is a. Ahmed is a professor emeritus from the University of Oregon, and he's also a Vedic scholar. Ahmed was also involved with the San Francisco Parapsychology Research Group.

Warwick Schiller (80:49)

Okay. Okay. That must have been such an interesting group of people.

Beverly Kane (80:54)

Oh, my God. And, you know, we're all kind of still in touch through Email there, there are various email groups and anyway, so the Self Aware Universe, subtitled How Consciousness Creates the Material World and it reconciles quantum physics with the Veda, the Vedas, the Indian Vedas, which are very spiritual teachings about other worlds, about the afterlife, about. I don't think they specifically mention the Bardo's, but it's very spiritual teaching as we've come to know. Spirit transcending the worlds, transcending past lives, future lives, incarnations, different things like that, some of which may not be palatable or have taken on different meanings and different explanations. But this is a very accessible book. It's not written in a terribly technical way, although I claim to understand only about 90% of what he says because he does get a little bit into theory, into the, the actual physics, quantum physics. But you know, there are two kinds of people in this world. Consciousness first, people and epiphenomenalists. So pretty much everybody in Western society is an epiphenomenalist. They see consciousness as an epiphenomenon of the brain. Consciousness comes from the brain. Consciousness comes from the chemistry of the brain. The neurons, the microtubules, the mitochondria, the physical structure of the brain produces consciousness. Ahmet's point of view and others like him because there are a lot of people that have this same philosophy and in the quantum world, conscious. And through all the research that Dean Radin does, through the research that Roland McCrady has been doing or did when he replicated Dean's work, consciousness exists outside the brain. I think we have to be open to the idea that consciousness goes on after we die, that consciousness exists separate from us now, that consciousness is one of those things that exist in those many worlds, in those multiple realities, into those parallel circumstances. So I really resonated, as they say, with that book, the Self Aware Universe, because finally here was a scientist and I know I've railed against people needing to justify things scientifically, but it was just so beautiful the way he put together the physics and Indian Hindu spirituality to make the case that consciousness exists outside the brain. And in fact, consciousness doesn't just sit there and look at things, it creates the material world, it creates events. There are people that can bend spoons. I can't personally do that, but one thing we periodically had in the San Francisco Parapsychology Research group was spoon bending parties. Kids are great at spoon bending. I can do it. A lot of adults, some adults can.

Warwick Schiller (84:59)

That, that Colonel Gerald Alexander I told you about before, he used to go to these spoon bending parties. And I'm not sure he ever met Uri Geller, but he took a guy to one of these things who was high up in the, in the US Military. He was the guy below who's when Colin Powell was in doing whatever he did in the US Government. What is that job? What is that?

Beverly Kane (85:30)

He was Secretary of Defense.

Warwick Schiller (85:31)

Okay, whoever's the second person down from that, this Colonel Gerald Alexander took him to one of these spoon bending party things. And when he saw it for the first time, he turned to Gerald Alexander and he said, I wish I'd never seen that. Yeah, because once you send it. I actually met a lady, I did a clinic in Maryland a couple years ago and there was a. The lady that ran the place where I did the clinic. We got talking about this the first night I was there. I have no idea how we got onto it. And she said, oh yes, I take, I've taken the CIA's wasn't spoon. They were forks bending course. And she scurries up to the house, she comes back with this fork that's bent over. And I said, did you get that, that fork to just flop over like that? She said, no, I didn't get that far. But like this fork, I can't straighten it. You know, it's solid. She said, I got it to where I could bend it over with my finger. I just put my finger on it and just pushed it over. It was like it was malleable, but it didn't bend. With the spoon bending that you've seen, did they bend without touching them or did they get them soft enough to where they could just bend them gently?

Beverly Kane (86:42)

Excuse me. I've seen people do both. But even they would stroke it and then use their mind, they didn't physically bend it. And these were spoons that you couldn't bend with muscle strength anyway, these are solid. I don't think it was the heat. But the story with Uri Geller, Russell Tart tells this story. Story that they were driving around with Yuri Geller when he was visiting. He visited when Russell was part of the Stanford Research Institute, which I think is who actually contracted with the CIA. Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ. But they were driving around with. With Yuri and Ori, I guess, and he would bend street stop signs. And Russell would never print that, you know, never claim that publicly because he couldn't prove it, but he saw it. They would drive by and the stop sign would. The pole from the stop sign. Oh, the pole. The pole. The pole would bend like a spoon.

Warwick Schiller (87:55)

Wow. Was he Israeli.

Beverly Kane (87:58)

Is he is Israeli, Yeah. He's still alive, I believe. But you know, this brings up something really important which is that we don't know, scientists don't know, neurologists don't know how a thought becomes a muscle motion. When you think I'm going to raise my hand. We don't know the point at which the thought connects with the neuromuscular apparatus. You know, we can look at the, the electroencephalogram when you have that thought. We can look at the electromyelogram when you actually bend your arm. We know all about the neurochemistry, all about the neurotransmitters, all about the synapses, the neuroanatomy. So we can get it down to even the microtubules of the cell. That's the latest theory about where consciousness is in the microtubules of the cell. But that's pretty far fetched in that right now it can't be proved. So we don't know where the thought connects with the body, where we can see the effects of it, but we don't know what that point is or what's really going on. So it's no different from, from not knowing how consciousness connects with that spoon to bend it.

Warwick Schiller (89:35)

Wow. I've talked to somebody who's actually seen it. Wow, you're. You know what, you are such a fascinating human being. I'm so excited to be hearing all this stuff.

Beverly Kane (89:43)

Takes one to no one.

Warwick Schiller (89:47)

Okay, next question for you would be if you could spread a message throughout the world, one that people would listen to, what would that be?

Beverly Kane (89:58)

So when I answered that question, I sent you a picture of a bumper sticker that came out of Apple computer in 1980 and it was a slogan, changing the world one person at a time. And at a certain point I had to content myself with the idea that I wasn't going to be really famous. I wasn't going to be an Elon Musk, a nice Elon Musk and do all the things that he's done. I mean he's, I don't want to be him or be near him anyway, but he's accomplished a lot and you know, realize that it all comes down to the people in our lives and the people that we influence one on one. And that the line from the Beatles and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. And I guarantee we're all taking as much love with us as Elon Musk for whatever he's done. But you know, I teach a lot of undergraduates, these 20 something kids. And I love, love, love, this is who's in my tai chi classes. I just love these kids because they're so open in some ways and they're so fresh faced and, you know, Zen mind, beginner's mind. But they're very stressed out by what they're supposed to do, who they're supposed to become, what they're supposed to achieve. And I think a lot of people are that, that doesn't go away necessarily in adulthood where we want to, you know, people want to have 6 million followers on TikTok or something. And I think the message, the most valuable thing that I've learned is that it all comes down to the people that you're with, the people that you can really get involved with deeply, you know, one on one or small groups or whatever. It. You don't have to be the world's greatest inventor to feel really fulfilled. Is that. There's that quote from Janis Joplin I sent you. You can go all around the world Looking for the end of the road. This is from the song Cry Baby. You can go all around the world Looking for the end of the road Trying to find something to do with your life, baby when you only got to do one thing well, to make it in this world all you ever got to do is be a good man One time to one woman and I have in parentheses or one horse and that'll be the end of the road.

Warwick Schiller (93:05)

Yeah. And, you know, I think it even comes down to, you know, like the waiter at the restaurant, you know, I just like to spread that love everywhere, you know, or, oh, poor people at the airport. I travel quite a bit, you know, like the people checking your bags at the airport, they're dealing with every stressed person in the world. So I try to be as nice to them as possible too.

Beverly Kane (93:28)

Yeah, yeah. Speaking of waiters, if I can be a little tangential again, this need for people to have to use science to justify what they do and to, you know, to look at things. It's. It's like if you go into a restaurant and the head waiter suggests, well, we have this really incredible special on Dungeness crab and something. Something in some other dishes. And you say, well, I'd kind of like to try that, but I want to know all the ingredients and all the chemistry and all the structure of the, of what's in the food instead of just enjoying it as a somatic experience.

Warwick Schiller (94:19)

Yeah, that's a good analogy. The next one was the unusual habit that was the shamanic beekeeping. What have you changed in the past five years that has altered the course of your life or changed who you've become?

Beverly Kane (94:32)

One thing that's really changed that's significant for me, other than finally accepting that we're here to change the world one person at a time. Just in the last couple of years. It's the way I look at horses. There's. If you go to the websites of half the people that do this kind of work, there's always a section on why horses, horses are prey animals, horses are herd animals, horses are mirrors. And I'd like to hear your take on this idea too. And I came to horses really late in life. Later I was 52 before I started with horses, and that was 23 years ago. And I came to them in the dot com bust in Silicon Valley when the, a lot of the startups crashed and failed. And because I came to horses really late, I never really trusted my instincts with them. I always trusted people who had been around horses since they were children and the various clinicians and the various trainers. And when I came to equine assisted learning and psychospiritual development, I tended to trust everybody in that field because most of them had been around horses since they were young too. And I was parroting those dogmas, those assumptions for a long time. Horses are herd animals, horses are prey animals, horses are mirrors, you know, the whole catechism. And there was an increasing disconnect between those concepts and what I felt with my horse and with other horses. And I'm like, I would go out to the ranch and I would say, well, you're not behaving like a herd animal. Unfortunately, the horse that's really my horse has to live in a paddock. And that's a long story. But, but I do have the lesson herd of 70 horses which live in a pasture. And those, those things just kind of weren't what was coming front and center in my interactions with them. And so I had to step back nine yards and drop back nine yards and think, well, you know, what is it for me? And for me, you know, horses are big. It's the total body connection that I feel that I can't feel with other animals or other people. One reason that I came to horses is because at the age of 52, my body was starting to get a little not so fast, not so flexible, not so strong. And I had these centaur like projections on horses that if I got on a horse I would be all of them things again. And I was, you know, it does do that for you and it did that for me. But I, but you know, horses are more instinctual than a lot of other animals and the herd, horses are certainly allowed to be that way. Our domestic dogs and cats are much more tied to our schedules. I love dogs, but I won't even have a dog because of the leash laws in our city. I'm not going to have an animal that I have to tell them when they can go potty and when I can be with them. My cats are outdoor cat in and out cats. And it was this idea that horses have no shame. Cats and dogs, domestic cats and dogs, if they steal a steak off the counter, they're going to, they know they've done the naughty thing. The horses I've experienced, they, you know, unless they're, they're over trained, if they're just kind of allowed to hang out with you, they don't have any shame. They, they shit where they please and they, and when they please and that then they don't care. Which is true of all animals. But you know, it was, it was a real shift for me coming to my own with horses. If anybody, if you're familiar with the Myers Briggs at all.

Warwick Schiller (99:19)

Yep.

Beverly Kane (99:20)

So what are you?

Warwick Schiller (99:23)

Oh, I know what Myers Briggs thing is. I don't.

Beverly Kane (99:26)

You didn't take the test? Yeah, well after.

Warwick Schiller (99:27)

I did years ago. But you know.

Beverly Kane (99:29)

Yeah. After the age of 40 it, it pretty much, you're pretty much balanced in every which way. Although it's interesting, my husband took the test as each other and it was interesting what we came up with. But back in the day I was an entj and entj, the, the inferior function for entj E is extroverted, is introverted feeling. It means, I don't know, it's hard for me to know what I feel for myself. There's the people pleasing aspect and it's hard to really have that internal test of one's own values, one's own beliefs. I mean I have strong ideas but when it comes to really feeling, it's hard to know what's there. And that, you know, that actually touches on the question about what I most admire in other people. And it's the idea of being able to do that to know one's own mind. My husband is exactly opposite to me. He is his own man. He is just, he's a brother from another planet, pretty introverted, you know, brilliant artificial intelligence guy who like you is a renaissance man with so many interests in physics and linguistics and music and he Wouldn't know what anybody's thinking about him. And if he did, he wouldn't care. He's so self motivated. So horses have helped me sort that out and kind of where I am at with my horse now is really, really trying to dig deep, deep, deep because there's so many conflicting. There's so much conflicting input to the problem. Some issues that I'm having with her, there's this, there's the conventional trainers, there's what I call the third wave horsemanship, which people like you and Lockie Phillips and Beth, what's her name? Beth Lauren. I can't think of her name now. So I'm having to dig really deep and use what I felt is the shift into what I think I understand about horses to work this problem out.

Warwick Schiller (102:16)

You know, it's interesting, you come into horses so late, you know, and it sounds like you had to navigate the dogma of other people who've been around horses for a long time. And I find that sometimes helping people with horses, the easiest people to help are the ones who have the least amount of experience because they don't have the, the, you know, that ingrained dogma about horses are. Whatever, you know what I mean? And I've just come back from a clinic. I was in Kanab, Utah on the weekend at a clinic. But one of the first things I said was I look at horses completely differently now than I have in the past and this is my next best guess. I said, no one knows the answers. Like it's either working or it's not. If it's working better than you used to, okay, it's your next best guess. But I don't know what my next best guess is going to be after this. But for right now, you know, it's like I've topped the hill and I can see the, you know, I can see the valley down in front of me. I know where I'm going to now, but when I get up the next hill, I don't know what's going to look like over there. So, you know, no one knows the answers. The horses kind of give you the feedback whether this is a good idea or not. And then, yeah, the more you understand about especially reading their emotional states, you can really read whether they're liking things or not and whether they're dealing with them or not. But no one knows the answers. You know what I mean? It's just your next best guess is all it is.

Beverly Kane (103:49)

Well, you know what, that's a segue into the question that I wanted to Ask you.

Warwick Schiller (103:56)

Okay, can we do that?

Beverly Kane (103:57)

Yeah, the timing seems right for that. So I'm not sure exactly how to pose this question. I might have to approach it from a couple of different sides. But, you know, you're. Like I said, you're such a Renaissance man. You had so many experiences and so many interests, and you've been so open on your podcasts. And now my curiosity about just about everybody, but especially somebody like you, is, what is the frontier of your life right now? What are you exploring? What is the question that you're dealing with that you haven't all the way answered? Where. Where are you at? At the fringes of your life? What. Does that make sense? Does it?

Warwick Schiller (105:11)

I'll see if I can answer it and see if that's the kind of way you're going to. At this point in time. I have a. Excuse me. I have a really good therapist who is really getting into the. The hidden places and so doing, like, inner child work. Going back in and changing some of those. Well, it's almost. Let's back up to the very start of this conversation when you're talking about quantum physics and, like, going back and changing things in the past or whatever. And it's almost like this inner child work as you go back and you. You kind of reparent yourself. You go back to that inner child and you go back and you change the story about what happened then. Maybe you didn't have the support you needed at the time, and how would your life be different if you had the support at the time? It's almost a bit like that. I have struggled with it because it's almost like when you do the work to go back. I couldn't find a younger version of me. Like, no, I've got nothing. Whereas lately it's just. It's been a while, and my therapist has been really working on this with me. But lately it's kind of like, oh, I can go back and I can reconnect with that younger version of me and kind of be the adult I wished I'd had sort of thing. And so I don't know, for me, my journey of, you know, introspection or whatever, it seems to always influence all the other things I'm doing in life, you know, so that's kind of.

Beverly Kane (107:00)

And that's what I'm interested in. I wasn't trying to dig into your therapy or. Really?

Warwick Schiller (107:04)

No, but I mean, that kind of. That stuff kind of influences where I go with. With. Yeah, where I go with other things. So it's it's almost like, you know, that's, that's what's kind of guiding me right there.

Beverly Kane (107:25)

So that, that's what I'm interested in. Where, where are you going with other things based on that, conversations you've had? I mean, what, yeah, what maybe in your day to day life of doing things on the physical plane is an inquiry for you as an exploration, an adventure. Where does your knowing meet the place of unknowing? I think.

Warwick Schiller (108:06)

Well, the thing I've been trying to do more of is more somatic things like during my day trying to get out of my head and into my body while I'm doing things, I could be on the tractor doing something or other. Instead of thinking about the thing I'm doing on the tractor, I'll try to pause and be aware of the feel of the steering wheel in my hands or the seat underneath me, or, you know, the vibration through the floor of it coming up into my feet, those sorts of things. Because I haven't really had access to, I don't know, the knowing sort of thing. The, the, you know, the messages you get from the universe sort of thing. Because I've always been so much in my head so that I think the work is, you know, the things that I've come to have been very empiric. Do the thing, get the feedback, do the thing, get the feedback. And I've been getting the feedback from the physical world. But I'm talking about, you know how you're talking about tapping into the collective consciousness of bees sort of stuff. I think the things I'm working on now, not that I'm going to be able to tap into the collective consciousness of bees anytime soon, but just being more in my body and I have found that I'll be doing something and I'll go to do something or whatever and there'll be kind of a voice in there that's not a foreign voice, but it'll say, no, don't do that, do this, or whatever. And it's almost like my wise self is showing up. The more of this, I don't know, this inner child stuff I do, it's more like I'll go to do one of the habits I normally have of whatever and there'll be another voice like, no, don't do that. That's not in your best interest and that's not been there before. And so that's. I don't know if that answers your question or not, but that's tapping more into that knowing. I think I've always Felt like I haven't had intuition, but everybody keeps telling me, hey, where your life's end up. Obviously, you had your intuition to guide you in this direction sort of thing, but I think that was intuition I didn't even know I was doing at the time. Whereas this new thing feels more like, oh, there's a wiser self. There's a wiser me that's starting to say, no, don't take that course of action. Take this course of action. And you were talking about. You're talking about Seth before. There's a guy named. I don't know if you pronounce it, Bashir or Basha. You ever heard of him? He's a channel, and he actually. I don't know if the entity is channeling his basher. I think that's who it is. And he'll sit on stage and people ask him questions, and he'll channel his answers. But the other day, there was a lady in the audience, and she said something like, I have this habit of. Or, I have it. No, he said, I have a tendency, too. And he says, you don't have a tendency. Those are decisions you make. And I was like, oh, yes, I have a tendency. It's not a tendency. Those are decisions you make. And it feels like this new or whatever it's come up is like, there's a wiser me who interrupts those decisions I made, which I would tend to think of as tendencies or habits. And there's a thing that kind of interrupts those things and says, that's not necessarily in your best interest. Which is interesting, because I've never really had that. I've never had that other angel on my shoulder telling me what to do. It's almost like there's only been one. And now there's like, hang on, stop. Wait a second. And so, yeah, I don't know if that answers your question, but that's. Unless you need to clarify that.

Beverly Kane (112:07)

Partly. I guess the question is, how has that changed? Maybe how you teach, how you relate to people, how you. What are you not sure of now? What? Well, those are two different questions. But it's like. Yeah, I guess the question is, what are you not sure of that you're trying to find that answer to? My example is working with reality in the quantum world and trying to collapse the wave function in predictable and desirable ways. But that's kind of my exploration. But. But what. How is that. How is your presence in. In the physical world changed or, I don't know, from that?

Warwick Schiller (113:17)

You know, I feel like I'M on the cusp of a bit of a shift. So if you come back and ask me that, maybe in six months time, I'll be able to tell you what it actually.

Beverly Kane (113:25)

No, but I want to know about the cusp. That, that's the question. What is the cusp? That's the. That you said it. What is. Describe the cusp. Ah, I love it. We got there.

Warwick Schiller (113:40)

Well, I'll go back to my very good therapist. She's. She's actually getting me more in tune with me, my body, my interior world, whatever, because I've been quite disconnected from it. And this year I've had three bouts of atrial fibrillation. And I've had. I think I've had it twice in the past, you know, a number of years ago. Okay. Different at different times. But the three times it's happened this year have either been the night before a clinic or the Saturday night of a like Saturday, Sunday clinic. It's happened on the Saturday night. So my body's telling me the way you're doing things or interacting with these horses and these people or whatever is a little unsettling to you. And there's something needs to change. I don't know what the change is, but it's. That's the cuspy thing. Okay. It's, it's like, like telling me there needs be to. There's going to be another iteration of how I do whatever it is I'm doing. It just hasn't appeared to me yet. But the signs have appeared to me that it's time for another iteration. And I probably try not to spend too much time thinking about it. For me, I'm very good at allowing just being in the dao of things, the flow of things. It's going to come to me. I'm not really spending a lot of time trying to intellectualize what it's going to be, but I am open to receiving the message in whatever form it gets delivered to me.

Beverly Kane (115:21)

Right. And thank you. That was a very open thing to do. And I would submit to you that you don't have to think about it. Being open is just the thing to do. A lot of this gets worked out in dreams that we don't even remember. And in the quantum universe, the there out there is the universe where you've got it all resolved. You don't have the ultra atrial fibrillation. You made that shift. And it doesn't have to be a linear process where you think and think and think about it and then slowly something changes. There can be a quantum leap off of a dream that you don't remember and just that your desire now is to go to that other parallel world.

Warwick Schiller (116:21)

Yeah. So it's going to be. I don't know, it's going to be, you know, maybe somewhat of a different path I'm on right now. And I'm not sure what it is, but like I said, I'm. I'm aware that a shift is coming or needed or whatever. I'm just unsure what that is.

Beverly Kane (116:36)

It's that uncertainty that is so vibrant.

Warwick Schiller (116:41)

Yeah, well, for me, the uncertainty live in the question, you know. For me, the uncertainty is not like, oh my God, what's it going to be? I mean, I've got this far just gone with the flow. I'm actually quite good at going with the flow. So, yeah, I'm not sure what it's going to be. But it'll faith it'll appear when the student is ready.

Beverly Kane (117:01)

Right? When the heart is ready, yes.

Warwick Schiller (117:05)

That's probably the one. Speaking of those things, another question for you. What do you feel your true purpose here is?

Beverly Kane (117:13)

Just what we've been talking about, changing that one person by bridging science and spirit. I've always been interested in both science and spiritual things. I had my first lucid dream when I was five years old. It was about a snake and my favorite uncle, who is recently passed. And when I told him, he was telling me to be very afraid of the snake. He was a dangerous snake. And I said, no, it's not. It's just a dream. And he didn't believe me in the dream. He did not believe that it was a dream. And this I've come to recognize relatively recently that this represented the tension between science and spirit, with him being very skeptical and a scientist. He was a brilliant, brilliant chemist. And it's what we were talking about earlier, about seeing where people are at with the scientific minds that I'm surrounded by at Stanford and in Silicon Valley and knowing that when they come to me and the horses, they're looking for something more spiritual, although they may not call it that, they may call it psychological. And so it's being that bridging person that can come with the knowledge and the experience and the credentials of a scientist and also the knowledge and the experience of a spiritualist, somebody who's worked in parapsychology, who's read tarot cards for 40 years, who understands the modeling of the quantum universe as it applies to both science and spirituality.

Warwick Schiller (119:20)

Sounds like you're doing it.

Beverly Kane (119:22)

I believe I am.

Warwick Schiller (119:27)

Wow. Well, I have to say that this was everything I thought it was going to be and a bit more. So thank you so much for joining me.

Beverly Kane (119:37)

Thank you so much for having me. This was fun.

Warwick Schiller (119:40)

Yeah. While you were chatting away there, I'm thinking this is not the last time I'm talking to Beverly Kane. You're absolutely fascinating.

Beverly Kane (119:47)

Thank you.

Warwick Schiller (119:49)

And you guys at home, thanks so much for joining us. And we will catch you on the next episode of the Journey on Podcast.

Beverly Kane (119:57)

Thanks for being a part of the Journey on Podcast podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warwick has over 850 full length training videos on his online video library@videos.warwickshiller.com Be sure to follow Warrick on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram to see his latest training advice and insights.