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- [00:07]
Caleb Degen
Journey on magic lies within the trails we ride.
- [00:13]
Warwick Schiller
You're listening to the Journey on podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warrick is a horseman, trainer, international clinician and author who helps empower horse people from all over the world with the skills, knowledge and mindsets needed to create trusting partnerships with their horses. Warrick offers a free seven day trial to his customers comprehensive online video library that includes hundreds of full length training videos and several home study courses at videos warwickshiller.com just because you see what he shows.
- [00:45]
G'day everyone. Welcome to the Journey on podcast. I am your host, Warwick Schiller and in this episode we are coming live from Aquatana in Melbourne, Australia. And if you guys, you listeners at home don't know what Aquitana is, it is Australia's biggest and best horse expo. They have it every two years and I've been presenting at Etana since the first time was 2008 and I believe this might be my seventh one. They missed one during COVID I think and I didn't make it to one somewhere in there. But I believe this is my seventh one. And you know, I'm always excited to be coming back here because it, it's a fun time. I catch up a lot of people that I haven't seen for a while. I get to meet lots of new people and this year I'm getting to do something really special which is record a live version of the podcast at Aquitana with terribly interesting people. And my special guest today is Caleb Degen.
- [01:42]
Caleb Degen
G'day guys. How you going?
- [01:44]
Warwick Schiller
I am good. So Caleb is the lead performer in Australia. What's the full title?
- [01:52]
Caleb Degen
Australian Outback Spectacular.
- [01:54]
Warwick Schiller
Thank you. Australian Outback Spectacular, which is on the Gold Coast. And so we're going to talk a bit about what Outback Spectacular is because some people may have never heard of it. Let's, let's go with the overview. It's owned by Village Roadshow, the movie company, isn't it?
- [02:07]
Caleb Degen
Correct. Yeah. So it's owned by Village Roadshow. As you were saying, it's a thousand seat indoor arena and we have 80 horses, 20 cattle, dogs, even an eagle in a live arena dinner show. So we run about four to six nights a week, totally dependent. And yeah, it's a, it's a massive operation and a team of people that.
- [02:26]
Warwick Schiller
Come together daily to make it work and outpect Roadshow. But they also own movie world there, SeaWorld. What else do they.
- [02:34]
Caleb Degen
Wet and wild, paradise country, Topgolf. It's a, it's a big company right and that's like.
- [02:41]
Warwick Schiller
That's village roadshow that pops up on the. The front of the. You know, one of your. Back when you used to get VHS video and put on the village road.
- [02:48]
Caleb Degen
Show thing had come up and you had to rewind.
- [02:50]
Warwick Schiller
Yes, yes. You probably don't remember that because you're in. So how long have you been. I would tell us about your role. You're the. You're the lead performer there. What, What. In the show, what is your role? What do you do?
- [03:03]
Caleb Degen
So in the show itself, this current show, I play one of the lead roles. His name is Jimmy. And I get to work with a liberty horse, an eagle. I ride a few different talented stock horses. And it's about a hour, 40 minute show that portrays the tale of drought in the Australian bush. So the hardships that the farmers endure to kind of get through that with a whole lot of cool bits of action thrown in the middle.
- [03:27]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. And not only do they have, you know, cool live action, but they have a light show that just. The first time I saw it amazed me. Like the start. There's a big wall at the back of the arena that they project stuff onto. And like one of the opening scenes is. It's like a. It looks like a rocky outcrop in Arnhem Land and all that stone country. And a waterfall comes down the wall and along the floor of the arena. And if you didn't know, you'd think it was real water.
- [03:57]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, it's pretty incredible what our tech team do. They can transform the arena into all sorts of different landscapes. You know, it can rain. In the last show, it snowed. We can have thunderstorms, lightning, the works. It's. It's pretty incredible.
- [04:09]
Warwick Schiller
And I know at one point in time they actually turned the floor of the arena into an ocean. They project. You know, they don't put water in it, but they project the lights on it. And there's an ocean and there's a whale and he's swimming under the water. And halfway up the arena, you guys have got a pipe buried in the arena. And that whale gets there. And right as his spout gets there, water shoots out of the arena floor.
- [04:29]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, yeah. There are so many different little things that make the arena come to life and sort of transport you to the outback.
- [04:35]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. And they even, you know, when you said they have brain, like it actually rains in the arena too.
- [04:39]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, the system. Yeah. There's sprinklers up in the roof there that make it. We stay dry in the middle because they don't like the microphones to get wet. They don't mind about us. But the tech equipment has to stay dry. So we have a channel around the outside of the arena that sprinkles rain. So from the audience's perspective, it looks like it's. Yeah. Raining.
- [04:57]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. And how. So how long have you been there?
- [05:00]
Caleb Degen
Nine years tomorrow.
- [05:01]
Warwick Schiller
You don't look young and you don't look old enough to be doing anything for nine years.
- [05:06]
Caleb Degen
I started there when I was just 18.
- [05:08]
Warwick Schiller
Really. And well, so I, I first went out back spectacular last year. They have a thing once a year called the Mastery of the Horse and it's a, it's a three day event where there's five of us, different presenters and it's a ticketed, you know, an exclusive kind of ticketed thing. But so we have the arena during the day and then we get to see the show at nighttime. And what amazed me for you listeners at home, the first year I was there, I had a booth set up. I was selling my book, things like that. But lunchtime, the first, I think was the first day. I've got a line of people at the booth wanting to buy books. I'm sitting in there signing books and this, this fellow comes up and he's like, hey, can, did you have lunch there? Can I get you some lunch? And he goes and gets me some lunch. But it wasn't just a fella, he was the lead role in the night show. It was Caleb. And so that was pretty cool. Like it's the whole thing, it's like a big family. I, I what? I didn't feel like how many, how many staff would there be?
- [06:13]
Caleb Degen
Including all of our weight staff on a sold out night? The event takes about 100 staff.
- [06:18]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. And what, it felt more like a big family than it felt like, you know, I didn't feel any of that, that tension, the air you can sometimes feel in like work environments. There was, yeah, that, the vibe there was super cool. I loved it.
- [06:31]
Caleb Degen
Yeah.
- [06:32]
Warwick Schiller
So you've been there nine years. How did you get there? Like what, what were you doing before that?
- [06:37]
Caleb Degen
I was polo grooming in the UK and I applied and I never heard anything back, but I put in a date that I was going to be flying back and believe it or not, the day that I landed I got a phone call and the rest is history. I went in for a, went in for an audition and I think it's the first time I've ever had a job interview where the first thing I did was ride a Horse. You know, they didn't even want to talk to me. I just. They just wanted to see if I could sit up on a horse and be able to be a role within the show. And then the actual audition process came secondary to that.
- [07:09]
Warwick Schiller
Now, I want to get back to you in a minute. You auditioning or you're even sending in your resume for the thing. But they. I think I know why they have you ride the horse first.
- [07:23]
Caleb Degen
Me, too.
- [07:24]
Warwick Schiller
Now, because, you know, it's an acting role. It's a. You sing. I mean, are you singing? But do you sing in the show?
- [07:30]
Caleb Degen
Yes.
- [07:30]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. Okay. So it's an acting role. It's a singing role. There's lots of actors and singers. There's not many actors and singers who can ride a horse well enough to be a lead in that show. And I've. We've got a friend of ours, actually, she was on the podcast, and her husband's husband, her son is in some branch of the military in America, and he's going to be. He wants to be a helicopter pilot. And if you're going to be a military helicopter pilot, there is a chance you could be shot down in enemy territory and captured and tortured. And so they put him through. There's that whole capture and evasion, and then they try to break you, all that. You've seen it in the movies, it's a real thing. But they do that first. What they don't do is spend four years teaching you to fly a combat helicopter and then find out you can't pass that test.
- [08:31]
Caleb Degen
Yeah.
- [08:32]
Warwick Schiller
And so they. Because when she was telling me, when Christine was telling me that he was. He'd gone and they were doing that first. I'm like, why would they do that first? And she said, because not everybody can pass that. Why spend all that time. So why go through the interview process with you, show us your singing, showed us your dancing, showed us your acting chops and then get through all that and go, you can't ride a horse. Yeah, start. Yeah, they start with that one thing first. But. But I want to know, why did you apply for that? Because you're a polo groom in England, so obviously you're around horses. Did you have an acting background or acting aspirations or singing aspirations?
- [09:10]
Caleb Degen
Absolutely not I really think of anything further from that. And it was obviously the horses that still draw me everywhere. And what comes with that. I guess I wanted to work in a job on the Gold coast, is obviously where I'm from. So it popped up on my Facebook, believe it or not. And That's, I guess what drew me there was the horses and the ability to have a full time job that was steady on the Gold Coast.
- [09:33]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. Well, so, you know, if you listen to this from other parts of the world, the Gold coast is like Australia's la, you know, like, you know, everybody's an aspiring actor or a model or a singer or one of those. Well, not everybody, but yeah, there's a, there's a lot of it there. But the, the. I remember when I was at Outback's back Tactical the first time, it was. Nothing was going on one day and they were doing a rehearsal and they had three girls come in the arena and sing and they were singing an Adele song. What, what song is that?
- [10:04]
Caleb Degen
Easy on Me.
- [10:05]
Warwick Schiller
Yes. So if you know the Adele song Easy on Me, you gotta have some pipes to sing this song. And the three of them sang different parts of it and they all sang equally well. And I was watching from up in the stands and I thought, oh, they must, they must have brought in these singers. I don't know what they're going to do with that. So then I was out the back not long after that. And they hold these long flowing red velvet dresses on in the arena. So I was at the back afterwards and they all come out the door holding their dresses up and underneath they've got cowboy boots. And then they whip these dresses off and they go and jump on horses. And Heidi that runs the whole thing has said to Heidi, that's the same girl as it sang, and she's like, yeah. And I said, where do you find somebody who can sing that well and can ride a horse and. Yes, it must be hard to fill those roles.
- [10:54]
Caleb Degen
Yeah. Casting for the show is super tricky, like you said. But those three girls, Beth, Sabrina and Casey, they're incredible. And they all play leads within the show now. And you give them a song and they will they run a three part harmony and sit out there and like you said, these beautiful dresses and then two minutes later they're out there picking up horse boot.
- [11:11]
Warwick Schiller
I actually saw a video of Sabrina picking up horse boo in the red velvet dress on. On Instagram. Yeah. Yeah.
- [11:17]
Caleb Degen
So you have a look.
- [11:19]
Warwick Schiller
You have a new lead female role, don't you? Yeah, that's about Jasmine.
- [11:24]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, Jasmine. She's incredible. So she's only started a few months ago, but she's the same. And it's so amazing, like you said, to find these girls that are able to act, sing and ride and do it well enough to be in front of an audience. Every night. So, yeah, she has absolutely flourished and it's a great way for her to culminate all of her talents into one place.
- [11:44]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. If you want to talk about, you know, what sort of talent they have there. I met Jasmine last year at Mastery of the Horse. She came by the booth, introduced herself, hey, how's it going? And she must have shared I should took a picture. We took a selfie together and she posted it on Instagram and tagged me. So I, you know, I followed her. Whatever about, I don't know, three weeks later, turns out she's now Miss Universe Australia. Miss World Australia.
- [12:07]
Caleb Degen
Yeah. Yeah, she's done amazing. Yeah.
- [12:09]
Warwick Schiller
So. So the lead role in Outbeck Spectacular, not only is she a singer and a performer, she's Miss World Australia.
- [12:17]
Caleb Degen
But very lucky. Very lucky, Very lucky.
- [12:20]
Warwick Schiller
So you wanted to get a job with horses. How hard was the rest of it?
- [12:27]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, I think that that's something that has not been easy for me is to slowly progress into a role where I speak for a living. Um, I guess I never ever expected that to be the case. You know, through school and growing up, I had never been the kind of person who was confident or would like even public speaking. In high school, I was always terrified. You know, I would start dripping in sweat and I would get clammy hands and be terrified of going in front of any kind of audience. But I think that the outback has taught me to be able to regulate that and be okay with it and start to put me in a place where now I am a little bit more confident being able to portray how I feel in those situations, you know?
- [13:14]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah, it's just, it's. I can't. I've, you know, I've known you for a year and a half now. Whatever the times I've been around you, I can't picture the clammy handed public speaking, not want to do it kid that you were. You know, if you think about it, they say that, you know, most people's number one fear is public speaking and number two is dying. It's. Yep, it's that. It's that big a deal. And you just seem, you know, you seem to be, you know, I haven't seen the progression, but you seem quite mature in your, in the role. You know, I think when you end up in a kind of a public sort of a role, and at least for me it was. There's this progression you go through to where you're insecure and insecure and kind of holding back sort of thing. And then the Next thing is you're insecure, but you're projecting and you're acting like you, you know, then you almost get a bit big for your britches sort of thing. And at the time you think you're confident, but when you really look at the whole thing, it's, it's just as insecure as the other one. But you come out, if you stay there long enough, you come out the other side of that and you just have this, this calm confidence in your, not only your ability, but your, your, the, the, the opportunity to, you know, change people's lives and, you know, brighten someone's day.
- [14:50]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, I think that that's the whole basis of what we do there at the show is we're in the business of smiles and we're so lucky to be able to do that. And I think that it has taught me to be able to put on a face and it doesn't matter what's happened in my day or how I'm feeling or what I'm doing. There's a thousand people there that are coming to see me or to see the whole show and I need to be able to portray the best side of that. And sometimes I think that that does definitely make you put on a bit of a facade to be able to then embody that rather than being the clammy handed person. And I still am right now.
- [15:33]
Warwick Schiller
You know. Yeah, it's, it's. Well, let me, let me ask you this. Like, for me, you know, I think you and I are in a similar position to where we are now, in the public eye. You know, maybe have a lot of eyes on you, but that wasn't your plan. Like if you're a, if you're a kid growing up and you want to be an actor or you want to be a rock star or you want to be a footy player or tennis player, whatever. Something that you see it on the TV all the time. Somewhere in your mind you're aware that if I get good enough at this, I'll be, you know, let's call it famous, whatever. You know, I mean, you and I are kind of accidentally famous if you want to, I don't want to use the word famous, but you know, you and I are accidentally in the public eye. Like it wasn't something that we thought was going to happen. It wasn't something we're necessarily looking for. How has that been for you? Because there is no book on, no book on how to navigate your ego when you become a public figure has, that, has that journey Been for you?
- [16:36]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, I think it's been a bit of a progression. And like you said, if you would have asked me 10 years ago, I could not think of anything anything worse. And I guess I still struggle with it a fair bit. Is that I get, for want of a better word, insecure when people talk about me or to me about what I have done. Because I guess it just comes from a place of not always. I think everybody feels sometimes like they're not good enough to be that or imposter syndrome and feeling like, well, that's not me. You know, I'm just little Caleb in my eyes still all the time, every day when I. When I have to go out and perform in front of a crowd or when anything comes up. And I get absolutely terrified still to this day. And people ask me that most of the times before the show. Do you still get nervous? Like absolutely. Like every single show, I still get extremely nervous.
- [17:26]
Warwick Schiller
Do you have a. Do you have like a pre show routine to help, like settle those things, those nerves down?
- [17:33]
Caleb Degen
For me, it's being by myself. I. Because I feel like when people are around, not necessarily all people, but I have my people who are amazing and they understand that. But for me, I feel like I have to be on when people are around. So I reset and I get my own feelings back in check when I'm on my own. And I can regulate because even, you know, if someone sees me when I'm feeling nervous, I then get nervous about that and like someone's just seen me in this state, you know, I have to be this up and on performer. And I think that that's something that has taught me to be my own biggest advocate there and come back into my own body rather than spiraling.
- [18:12]
Warwick Schiller
You mentioned something about like self regulating and you just did a demo on one of the arenas here with the. Some of the horses from Outback Spectacular and one of the dogs.
- [18:20]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, yeah.
- [18:22]
Warwick Schiller
I wandered by and I heard some of it and you were saying it was a. I loved it because it's all the things I'm trying to get people to think about these days. But you were talking about, you were communicating to the horse through your breathing and your heart rate and your body language. And these are the things that when you swat someone, like Caleb worked with a horse, you kind of think he's not doing anything. How is he getting the horse to do those things? But you're doing a lot of things. But they're. They're not the external things. There's the. They're the, the internal things. How do you. Can you talk about that a little bit?
- [19:01]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, I think that that's so hard for me to convey to people. And I, I give lessons and I do that sort of stuff now. And people want to know that A means one and B means two. And it's not like that whatsoever. They ask me, you know, where did you move your whip? And I'm like, it has nothing to do with that. It's that internal feeling. And I think that horses have taught me about so much of what is going on internally. Because if I'm saying one thing, you know, with my reins or my legs or my whips, but my body's meaning another, and I'm wondering why it's not working. It's always what's happening internally with me. And that's taught me so much about that same term I've used about how to self regulate. Because if I'm not present, that horse isn't either. And that's the be all and end all.
- [19:46]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah, it's all the, you know, it's all that invisible stuff that. And I, you know, I don't think it's talked about near enough, especially with horses, is the, you know, that internal, you know, the, your internal energy and your internal dialogue and your inner intentions and, you know, intentions kind of, you know, control your energy and stuff. But it just looks like people are talented or they know, like you said, I mean, this means A and this means B or whatever, but there's a lot more to it than that. And I think, you know, I love what you were sharing over there in that arena. Not so much, because I hope people can go home and audition for the lead role. That's spectacular. But get them to think about how sensitive horses really are and how sentient they really are. And, you know, and I don't really think this is about horses, but I think when people start to learn, be aware of how sentient horses are, how, how sensitive they are, and then start to, to take some steps to, you know, do a little bit of internal work sort of thing, that doesn't just change how their horses, that changes their relationships with their family and their coworkers and their kids and their friends and stuff. And that's, that's, that's one of the things I really think horses are amazing for. You know, this podcast is not a. It's not a horse podcast, but for many of us, the horses kind of, you know, led us to a certain place that we weren't in before the horses. And you could Take the horses out of the equation, and we're still. We're still a changed person.
- [21:31]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, they've taught me how to communicate and like, and not just with other horses, but with people as a whole. And you start to learn then how to interact and notice how people are feeling. And their body language always tells you before they speak. So before a person speaks to you, you have so much of an idea of what's going on with them, just by the way, you know, their eyeline and their shoulders and all of those things that I now can pick up on a lot quicker because horses have taught me to do that. And I think that's the. Like you said, it's not a horse podcast, but they have taught me to be able to communicate and understand and notice the little things, rather than what someone is saying to you is quite often not what they mean.
- [22:12]
Warwick Schiller
Do you find that, you know, in this. In this journey of quote unquote, getting better with horses, which is really getting better with Caleb, do you have. You find that you kind of had to unravel some of the, like, you know, the cultural, societal conditioning that the stories we get told about ourselves growing up.
- [22:37]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, yeah. I think that you have to. If you hold onto that, a horse is always going to see through that. And, you know, I guess humans by design are conditioned to act a certain way. From the minute that we are born to the minute we die, we have this fear. Well, I, speaking for myself, I have a huge fear of judgment and what someone's going to think of me and how I can act in that situation. And I think that as soon as I realized that I couldn't do that with a horse is what allowed me to become okay with being my own person rather than what I've been told I was my whole life. I think that letting go of what your parents told you or what, you know, your peers told you when you were in school, and you eventually believe what they have told you and they condition you to be the person that you told you were, rather than actually finding out that for yourself and working out what you want to be who you are and. And what values you have.
- [23:37]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah, you said, you know, you went to make kind of a broad statement. You said, well, no, no, this is, you know, this is what I kind of feel. But, you know, you said, you know, you know, in society, we're conditioned this way or whatever. Then you said, oh, hang on, it's more what I feel. But you're talking about our society, you know, Western type society, because my wife And I were in Bali earlier this year and most of Indonesia, as you probably know, is Muslim, but the Bali is Hindu and they're animists. So they believe that every solid object, whether it moves or not, has a spirit and they interact with the world that way. And have you ever been bailing?
- [24:24]
Caleb Degen
Yeah.
- [24:25]
Warwick Schiller
So you know what I'm talking about. The Balinese people, they're like, oh my God, I want to show up in the world that way. But they, they're just raised. You said, you know, we're raised and we're, we're raised from an early age to think this. Yeah. In our culture. But going to cultures like that, that, that those things are different. It's a totally different vibe. Like, I kind of want to show up as a Balinese person.
- [24:48]
Caleb Degen
No, I think that I totally agree with that. And like I said, and people ask me, going back to horses that they asked me about conditioning horses and it's all about what you are trained to believe. I feel like it's that conditioning in that environment that you start out with that then builds that foundation of what you are expected to do. So breaking that down, I guess, before building yourself back up is a. Yeah, it's a journey.
- [25:12]
Warwick Schiller
It sounds like the horses have been a bit of a guide in your life, you know, before at Beck Spectacular. You're a polo groom in England. How did you get into the horses?
- [25:23]
Caleb Degen
So my parents split up when I was very, very young and I used to get so joint custody. I used to go to my dad's place on a weekend and he used to pick me up from school, drop me off at the writing school on a Friday afternoon, pick me up Monday morning and take me back to school. So he didn't want to hang out with me, so I would stay at the riding school all weekend. So I would. I hated it to start out with because it was, you know, it was almost like a punishment. Like I got dropped off there and got picked back up in two days and then back to school. Like I didn't even really see my dad. But then I learned to find a release from that and learned to find that that was actually the most incredible thing that's probably ever happened to me because I could use these animals as a sounding block for myself. And there is no judgment. So fear of judgment goes out the window when it's just you and an animal in a quiet space and all you've got to think about is yourself.
- [26:19]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. You talked before about how you, you know, we're not self confident and you're worried about, you know, judgment from other people. And, you know, my wife Robin did a talk here yesterday about anxiety. And one of the things she talked about is your body's always trying to feel, am I safe? And being, you know, being mammals and being, you know, a creature that thrives on connection and community. That, that being worried about what other people think is a very, very hardwired, back to caveman day sort of thing. That if, if you upset the status quo and get kicked out of the group, you're going to die. So it's, you know, I talked to before about public speaking enemy number. You know, people speak scare number one and dying's number two. But you think about, think about that. There's, there's, there's roots to that. So I wanted to ask you if I can about. At the time, I know you've probably, you know, looked back on this, but at the time, did you, did you have thoughts about you? I don't know. We all have those unworthy thoughts. But because your dad would drop, you know, your time with your dad you didn't spend with daddy, drop you off and leave for the weekend. Was there, was there a story you were telling yourself about yourself because of that?
- [27:49]
Caleb Degen
Oh, of course. I think that that goes without saying. You always think the worst. And you. It's not about him chopping me off there. I think it was the fact of he didn't, he didn't want me. Like, he didn't want to spend time with me at all, which was, at that point in time, the truth. And I can't speak for him in any way, shape or form, but for me as a kid, getting dropped off at a writing school and picked up three days later, you know, of course I was unwanted and uncared for. And then you've got to find, I guess, that. Find that in something else. And that's what I learned to find.
- [28:22]
Warwick Schiller
And you, you know. And you found it with the horses, I take it?
- [28:26]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, yeah. I still do. Very often. I think that, that they are. There are a way for me to get my emotions reciprocated. There's no, there is no ulterior motive. There's. It's just what you give is what you get. Full stop, exclamation point. Close the book.
- [28:47]
Warwick Schiller
So during, say, high school, were you involved, you know, heavily involved in the horses back then?
- [28:52]
Caleb Degen
Yeah. Yeah. I was lucky enough to go to an equestrian school. So every Friday I got to take my horses to school and I would. Yeah, we'd get to ride every Friday in school. Super lucky.
- [29:04]
Warwick Schiller
Really? Where was that?
- [29:05]
Caleb Degen
Corralbin. Corralbin Equestrian College. Tkis.
- [29:08]
Warwick Schiller
Okay. And when you, when you got out of high school, what was, what was next for you?
- [29:13]
Caleb Degen
So for me, I, I lived my. My mum actually bought a property out near the school, so I was super lucky. And she went off, it was a boarding school and she went off on catamaran and was starting to sail the world. So I would, you know, get myself to and from school and do all of those things. And that was kind of where I started to really flourish and find my own feet with the horses and starting to compete. And I started out in eventing and show jumping and the Olympic disciplines and. Yeah, that's, that's, I guess my high school years.
- [29:46]
Warwick Schiller
And where did it go from there? Because you end up in England as a polo groom when you're. How long? When you're 18.
- [29:56]
Caleb Degen
Yeah. So my, my next door neighbor at the time, Wayne Glennie, he had a string of polo ponies. So I would go there every morning before school in the dark and freezing and I used to work a few strings of his polo pony, so I would take them out on set. So you ride one lead four and you would exercise them to keep them fit for polo. So I'd do that in the morning before school until about 8:00 or as long as I could drag it out before I would be late for school. I'd go to school for the day and then I'd go home and I'd go to my second job working at a little feed store.
- [30:31]
Warwick Schiller
So. More stuff?
- [30:32]
Caleb Degen
Always.
- [30:33]
Warwick Schiller
So were you, did you get into the sailing like your mom or. That was her thing?
- [30:37]
Caleb Degen
No, no, not at all. I never did. I didn't enjoy that side of things. But yeah, she, she was always. That's what she wanted to do. And I think that I'm one of seven kids, so I was the youngest kid and I think that by the time I came around, she was a bit over it, you know, she'd had enough.
- [30:56]
Warwick Schiller
She.
- [30:56]
Caleb Degen
She'd given a lot of herself to the other siblings and by the time I came around and when I was, you know, 14 or so, or old enough to take care of myself, I did. So that, that. Yeah.
- [31:09]
Warwick Schiller
So when did she, when did she head off around the world in the catamaran?
- [31:12]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I was probably 14 or 15.
- [31:16]
Warwick Schiller
Oh, really?
- [31:17]
Caleb Degen
Yeah. So by the time I could, you know, I sorted out at the shops and buy myself frozen meals, she was off.
- [31:24]
Warwick Schiller
And what was the plan? Like to circumnavigate the globe. Was she, was she in like a, was she on like a big adventure like circumnavigate the globe or she was just going to toodle around from place to place and.
- [31:36]
Caleb Degen
No, she was definitely. She, she'd gotten to a stage in her life and she was just, just on 60 and I think that she had realized that she had lived her life for others that whole time.
- [31:48]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah.
- [31:48]
Caleb Degen
So she got to a point in her life where she put her foot down and she spent all of her savings and found a new partner. And yeah, they were circumnavigating the globe.
- [32:00]
Warwick Schiller
Were.
- [32:02]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, yeah, they were. So as of about four years ago, so they were crossing through their channel in Africa and they hit a big storm and yeah, both of them passed away in their boat, capsized. And then a rescue attempt started to rescue them, a big container ship. And then it actually ended up running them over instead. So they were in the middle of the channel between the Maldives and Africa.
- [32:34]
Warwick Schiller
Wow. I'm sorry to hear that. Wow. Run over by a container ship trying to save you.
- [32:40]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, yeah. It's the only thing that was in that area for a hundred kilometer radius. So that was the only thing that was on the, on the two way that could actually have a rescue attempt. And the seas were too high for everything else. So.
- [32:52]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah, and so how did, how do you, how did you get the news from something like that?
- [32:57]
Caleb Degen
Like, yeah, I got a phone call from my sister and I was at work at Outback and yeah, I guess anytime you get news like that, it's working out if it's real or not. And I went into a state of shock and I was like, oh, clearly something's not right here. So I was totally fine, not a problem. Like I was absolutely nothing wrong. And this was before a show and I was mic'd up, ready to go, and then it hit me out in the car park and I just could not control myself. Like I just. It all flooded in in about 10 seconds and I literally felt like I had 5 tons land on my shoulder in a heartbeat. And I had my microphone on and it was 10 minute call and we, we had to get it under control and realized that, you know, my mom and her partner, my, my stepdad at the time had, had drowned in off the coast of Africa. And you're about to go and do a show in front of a thousand people. And I think that that's what's taught me that you can put on a front and do whatever it takes to get the job done. And one of our segment titles here at Ekwatana is the show must go on. And there is nothing that is more true than that. However, at some point it has to come out and the longer you hold on to that and the more that you let it build up, it doesn't matter how long you hold onto it for. It's going to come out in a certain way, whether that is the way you want it to and when you can have a little bit of control over that or when you least expect it. And you're laying in bed at night.
- [34:36]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. Robin's mum passed away last year. And it's, you know, when you haven't had a close family member die, you probably don't really understand grief, but it has a part, like, you can buy books on grief and it'll tell you this is going to happen and this. And they're like, there's. I don't know, there's seven. Is there seven stages of grief hunt? Seven. There's like, you know, and one of them is denial.
- [35:21]
Caleb Degen
Yeah.
- [35:21]
Warwick Schiller
And it's, you know, it's. It's really interesting. Robin's mum had pancreatic cancer, which is a very quick sort of a thing. And early on in the piece when. When hospice got called in, the hospice nurse come to the house and sits down with you and she says, okay, it's going to go like this and then this is going to happen and this is going to happen and then this is going to happen. And so we've got. We've got, you know, we've got the morphine, but we've got the heavier version. We won't need that stuff. Do you know what I mean? And then it happens exactly like they said it was going to happen. And I think that, you know, that the grief process is very documented. And, yeah, like, they can tell you how it's going to happen and where. How it's going to come up. And like you said, if you don't have it come through you, you know, if you don't help it come through you, it'll just come through you like a train when you least expect it.
- [36:27]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, it still does sometimes. And I think that that was the biggest thing for me was that there was no preparation, per se. I was never. I've never been very close with my mum. And I guess that was the realization when that happened, that pride always got in the way of me feeling the way that I actually did. And then when it's too late, you can't change anything. And you can't go back and, and you can't say the things you wanted to say. And that's it. That's it. And that realization there, that there's that hole that you never are going to get, that, for want of a better word, closure, that it doesn't exist, you have to then live with yourself. And I think that's taught me to put away my pride at times. It doesn't matter if someone's hurt me or done anything like that. It's up to me to be able to deal and live with the way that I've acted.
- [37:25]
Warwick Schiller
And, you know, imagine, you know, once again coming back to the horses. The horses kind of teach you a lot of that sort of thing too.
- [37:34]
Caleb Degen
100%. Yeah, they do. And they continue to. And I think that that's the beautiful thing about them is that they've allowed me to express myself in ways that I feel comfortable. And then relating it back to humans, you know, they don't hold on to anything and they don't feel, they don't feel an issue with being able to, you know, hold on to a grudge or hold on to something that happened to them two weeks ago. Of course they have trauma the same that way that we do, but they're, they're more in the moment and it's, it's taught me to be present and allow myself to feel the way that I do at that time. Otherwise it's going to circle back and come out in a way that I, I really don't want it to. And it gets ugly.
- [38:14]
Warwick Schiller
See, that's, that's, you know, that's one of the myths in, you know, one of the myths in horses is a lot of people get told to, you know, leave your emotions at the gate and push through or whatever, but you really have to be, you have to be honest about who you are and how you are at the time. And the, otherwise it gets in the way. They're so good at, so good at reading stuff, aren't they?
- [38:37]
Caleb Degen
Yeah. If I left my emotions at the gate, I think that I would never have any kind of connection like I do with my beautiful animals that I do now. I think that that's the, that is the building blocks of the connection that I have with them is feeling those emotions and understanding them more rather than that age old saying of leaving them at the gate.
- [38:55]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. Have you ever heard of a guy named Gabor Mate?
- [38:58]
Caleb Degen
No, I haven't.
- [38:59]
Warwick Schiller
So Gabor Mate is one of the world's leading experts on addiction and trauma. And, you know, he. He thinks there's very close correlations between the two. He says you can have. You can have trauma without addiction, but you can't have addiction without trauma. Like it all comes from somewhere. But he's written several amazing books, but one of them is called the Myth of Normal. And like, what. What's supposedly normal in our society is not normal at all. We had. We didn't evolve to work that way sort of thing. But in this book, and what made me just. Why this is a segue into something that's. You said that you weren't terribly close to your mum. In this book, he was. He said. He was talking to some guy who said that, oh, I didn't have any traumas as a kid. And this guy said, gabor, mate, said to the guy, really, when you were a kid, did you have an adult that you could go to and tell them exactly how you were feeling about anything that might be affecting you? And the guy said, no. And he goes, there's your trauma. And, you know, now, growing up in Australia, for me, you know, I mean, we got along great with our parents, but you didn't discuss, you know, you certainly didn't discuss feelings. And so for me, I think the, you know, the first sentient being that I could sit down and tell them exactly how I was feeling about any particular thing was a horse.
- [40:34]
Caleb Degen
Yep. I can second that 100%. That was the first time that you feel like you could actually be honest.
- [40:41]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. Be honest. And also. But. But also have. Have no judgment come. Come back to you. I was talking about Bali before, and Robin and I were in Bali in February this year. We went to a. A. Well, it's like a yoga retreat that's done by a guy named Michael Franti. He's a singer. I don't know if any of you guys out here have ever heard of Michael Franti's music, but one of the things that they would. They did there, they. They called them soul circles. But we, in the morning we'd meet up in the yoga shot and they would have a topic of conversation for the day. They talk about it for a bit. And then we'd split up into groups and you'd sit around in this group and the question might be something like, you know, oh, I'm going to go big right now. This would be a big one. Would be. And this question didn't come up there, but this would be a great one. What is something that you're holding inside? You've never told anybody those sorts. I'M not asking you that question. Is one of those sorts of questions. We were about to dig deep there. No, we're not. I'm not asking you that question. What I'm saying is there's those sorts of questions and you don't go around the circle. Whoever wants to speak can speak. And if no one speaks, you sit there in silence. But when people share this stuff, the only appropriate response is thank you. And so it's that same thing. It's that, it's that being able to share something that's weighing heavily on your chest and have it not met with any judgment or anything like that. And it's, and it's almost like that's what horses can, you know, in certain points of your life can do that for you.
- [42:15]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And that's, it's still obviously to this day, and I'm guessing for my entire life is going to be my point of call whenever I, whenever I need a sounding board or something to actually regulate me and show me where I'm at. I always, always go to my horses there.
- [42:32]
Warwick Schiller
But having beat it up, expect you get a pretty good crew around you. I'm pretty sure you can, you can share with those guys too. I was going to say about those, what they were called soul circles there. So we have a podcast summit every year and at the podcast and we have podcast guests like yourself come and present on stage. It's over three days and they do like a TED style talk, we call them Tick Talks. Teach, inspire and Connect. And the first summit we had was a few years ago and it was just an amazing experience. But people went from that back to their other life sort of thing. And so we decided we wanted to have an integration day. So we kind of added an integration day to the next one afterwards to kind of get people back into it. But then this year we started in the, we had a summit in the UK this year and one in America this year. But the one in the UK we started out, we added these connection circles at the end of every day. And what was amazing was in two of the connection circles that I was involved in there I had people, they shared something and then they paused and they kind of looked around the group and they went, huh, I don't think I've ever told that to a soul in my entire life. And one of them, it was 10 year old girl stuff when I was 10, this happened or you know, whatever, she got this upper chest and she's my mum's age, she's like 80 something. And so you think about, you know, that book, the Myth of Normal that Gabor muttered. You know, one of the things we evolved to do was live in communities and sharing stuff like that would be just completely normal. You know what I mean?
- [44:13]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, I think you're exactly right there. And I think that like we went back to with that grief that if you don't share, it builds up inside no matter what. And whether that's good, bad, ugly, and there's so many things in my life, I feel like that I, I felt like I had to hold on to because like you said, there's always that fear of that you are the only one who does feel like that or that you are going to get judged if you do feel like that. And I think that the realization of understanding that there are so many people out there that can understand and feel the way that you do, or that may have even been through the same things that you have been through is something that has slowly, I guess, gotten me more comfortable with sharing and understanding myself.
- [45:05]
Warwick Schiller
Most certainly. So in the podcast, on the podcast, usually I email my podcast guests and I give them a list of 20 questions that actually stole from Tim Ferriss's Tribe of Mentors book that I haven't choose, you know, five or six, four or five or six or whatever. And I. And then I ask them on the podcast and I haven't done that with you. But one of the, one of the questions is what that I offer people is what's been your biggest mistake and how has it helped you? Have you had one of those kind of moments?
- [45:39]
Caleb Degen
I think that I am my biggest critic and I think that understanding how other people might see you is not always how you see yourself. And I think that I used to hate seeing a video of myself or hearing my own voice or anything that had to do with me. But I think that once you start to communicate and realize that people don't often see you in that same light, and then you can start to grow and understand yourself a little bit more to the point where then you can, like you said before, have that little bit more self confidence to then push forward. Holding on to things for me has always been my biggest issue because they come out, like I said, at the worst times, when you don't want them to. And when you're on a public forum like this, like the show, like I had to do this morning in those demos, and you know, people only see that 45 minutes or the same with social media, I think that everybody will understand that social Media is a portrayal of how you want people to see you in this world. And I used to be so scared to post absolutely anything for the fear of judgment. Again, we always come back to that. But I think that understanding that everybody has these emotions and everybody has. Everybody has this process that they go through and everybody has their own issues, and once we find that connection with horses, for me, but then people as well, it allows you to feel, I guess, a weight lifted off your shoulders and a bit of freedom to. To feel like you're truly yourself and not having to hide all of these things under a little blanket.
- [47:20]
Warwick Schiller
Right? Yeah. And the. The great thing about. I think about the great thing about vulnerability is if you ever get brave enough to do it and share some things you may not have shared before, and if you can do it in the right place, you're always thinking you're going to get judged. And in my experience, what you get is, yeah, me too.
- [47:42]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, I'm super comfortable with it now. But my sexuality growing up was a huge, huge, like, one of the biggest inhibitors for me to ever be confident. Confident and comfortable with myself. So for. For a long time growing up, I was terrified of being gay, and I was so scared of not being, for want of a better word, normal. And that was something that always, always terrified me and that I held onto because I was so scared of the judgment and the fear of what other people were going to think. And now I think I'm. I'm so okay with it because I've learned that the people that are going to treat me differently, I don't necessarily want their opinion to adjust mine in any case.
- [48:29]
Warwick Schiller
Yes, exactly. You, to me, you just seem like you're very comfortable in your own skin.
- [48:36]
Caleb Degen
On a good day.
- [48:38]
Warwick Schiller
On a good day. No. And you have this cool vibe about you. I remember when I first met you and I went back to America and I was telling my wife Robin about you. There's a. There's a podcast guest and a horseman, he's from Canada named Jonathan Field, that, that, you know, I'd met. I've known Jonathan for quite a long time, but he's. He's one of those people that when I'm around him, I kind of. In the back of my mind, I'm kind of thinking that's how I want to show up in the world. Like, I want to have what I used to call Jonathan Field. Enemy. Enemy. Enemy. Jonathan Field energy. Now it's going to be to Jonathan Field slash Caleb Diggin energy. But, yeah, you have this. You Know, one of the questions that I would ask podcast guests is what. Not attribute. What word like attribute, I can't think of now. What quality do you admire in other people? And for a while, for quite a long time, my life was. It was, you know, it's always the thing you think you don't have. And for a long time, it was like courage, you know, bravery. But then I got to realize a lot of people that I'd looked up to who were courageous was. That was their insecurity, just the shadow of manifest, just projected sort of a thing. And then, you know, in however long it's been now, like, the quality I admire in other people is I don't know what I call openness. And you really exude that. Like, you are just. You have this vibe about you that. That not only makes me feel good. If anybody in the audience here is. Has interacted with Caleb, that you've, you know, you've got this. This light that you have, and you just go around, you sprinkle that everywhere. It's good.
- [50:31]
Caleb Degen
Little dust pen and brush after, make sure we clean it up.
- [50:34]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah, yeah. But no, I love it. And I bet that's, you know, like, you mentioned your sexuality before you. I bet you weren't the same person when you were, you know, holding things back. But you, to me, you feel like you. This is me, and I love it. And I invite you to love it, too. That's kind of what I get from you.
- [50:54]
Caleb Degen
Well, yeah, I think that once you. Once. You actually take into account that you are only here once, and I know that there's so many more things, and that's a totally different subject. But fear of death, like you spoke about before, you can either be scared of dying or you can be grateful that you're alive. And for me, I take. Try to. I try to take every single day as a. As a gift. Like, I'm here. I'm. I woke up this morning, and I've got 24 hours to spend it the way that I want to. So the only person that can affect that is myself. I can't control how other people are going to react around me. That's never going to happen. So I can control how I feel in that situation. And if I'm. If I'm getting down on myself, the only person that that affects is me. Yeah, it might have an effect on people around me, but it's me. It's. It's my life. And. And I can choose. Happiness is a choice. It truly is. You can be happy in the worst situation or you can be sad in the best situation. And I think that if, if you have that perspective that then you can take on situations and achieve a lot more inner peace and find that within every situation rather than, rather than searching for validation.
- [52:06]
Warwick Schiller
Do you do like out back Spectacular there? Do you ever, you know, you said your, your, your pre show routine is to kind of be off on your own, but do you ever go in there when nothing's going on and just, I don't know, sit in those stands and just look around that place and kind of consider this is my life?
- [52:35]
Caleb Degen
Like, yeah, yeah, I had one of those moments actually. Well, not here at, Sorry, not at Outback Spectacular, but two days ago in the Grand Pavilion here at Ecuatana and I had my beautiful horse Rocket with me and one of the show horses, Striker, and we walked into the Grand Pavilion and I honestly just stopped, took the biggest breath of my entire life and realized that, hey, this little kid's not a little kid anymore. And we're here at the biggest horse event in Australia and we're here to perform and educate and do all of these things. And I just felt this overwhelming sense of. I don't know if gratitude is the right word, but yeah, yeah, gratitude. I was so grateful that all of those things that had happened in my life had led me to a place where now I'm able to be here with the animals that have taught me about myself and hopefully share a little bit of that with all the people here.
- [53:33]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah, that Grand Pavilion, like I walked.
- [53:35]
Caleb Degen
Incredible.
- [53:36]
Warwick Schiller
I walked in there the other day. Like, the place is completely empty. No one's in there. And I was walking with my son Tyler, I think it was with me. And I looked up and I said, this place has an energy about it when no one's in it. Yeah, it gets an awe inspiring like, wow. And then like, you know, come tomorrow night during the night show when the stands are full of people and that. Yeah, it's, it's like, it's like out Spectacular. The energy is just focused on the arena and it's. Yeah, it's, it's pretty amazing. So what's next for. I know you're busy at Outback Spectacular, but do you, do you foresee you want to stick there? That I think that's like, what's, what's next for Caleb?
- [54:17]
Caleb Degen
I've never been huge on funneling. I like, I have goals, of course, but I don't. I'm open.
- [54:24]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah.
- [54:24]
Caleb Degen
I'm open to wherever this road leads. And if you would have told me that I had to focus a year ago on coming to Aquitana. I would have been like, well, that's not on the cards. It's not happening. So being open to opportunity is what has led me to the awesome places that I've been able to go and see and do. And I feel like going in, into things with that open mind. Like, yeah, I have my goal of, you know, my biggest dream in life is having my own bit of land with a white picket fence and my 100 acres with my horses. That's since I was a kid. That's all that I've ever, ever, ever wanted. And that's a physical goal for sure. But for me, I, I don't know if it sounds tacky or not, but I'm so content with being open to whatever happens.
- [55:08]
Warwick Schiller
That's how I got here. So I think it's a good plan. You know, you said something about, you know, 12 months ago you someone told you were going to be here. I forget exactly what you said there, but I want to, I want you to think about something. I don't know if It'll be in 12 months, but at some point in time we're going to have another podcast summit back in Australia. So just plan. You're going to have to do a 20 minute talk on stage to a bunch of very open hearted people. So you can start planning that now if you like.
- [55:36]
Caleb Degen
I'll get my clammy hands ready.
- [55:37]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah, get your clammy hands ready. So how can people follow you? Like you got social media.
- [55:44]
Caleb Degen
Yeah, for sure. Caleb Deegan on Instagram, the same thing on Facebook and it's not often always so serious. I try and have a bit of a laugh on there as well. Life's too serious at the best of times so I try and lighten it up. But yeah, feel free to jump on and say good day. I'd love to hear from you.
- [55:59]
Warwick Schiller
And what about Apex Spectacular? They on Instagram?
- [56:03]
Caleb Degen
Instagram and Facebook the same thing. And you can have a bit of a look about what Warwick was talking about in that transformative experience of the arena and check out their socials and see what it does as well.
- [56:13]
Warwick Schiller
It's Australian Outback Spectacular.
- [56:14]
Caleb Degen
Just Outback Spectacular on Instagram and Australian Outback Spectacular on Facebook.
- [56:18]
Warwick Schiller
Okay, well thank you so much for joining me. It's been an absolute pleasure having you here and I hope you guys live in the audience here. Certainly appreciated Caleb sharing is some of his life story with us. So thanks mate.
- [56:30]
Caleb Degen
Thank you, thank you for having me. Thanks guys.
- [56:34]
Warwick Schiller
And for you guys at home, thanks so much for listening and we'll catch you on the next episode of the Journey on Podcast.
- [56:42]
Thanks for being a part of the Journey on Podcast with Warwick Shiller. Warrick has over 850 full length training videos on his online video library@videos.warwickshiller.com Be sure to follow Warrick on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram to see his latest training advice and insights.