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- [00:07]
Cara Giroux
Journey on magic lies within the trails we ride.
- [00:13]
Warwick Schiller (Intro/Outro)
You're listening to the Journey On Podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warrick is a horseman trainer, international clinician and author who helps empower horse people from all over the world with the skills, knowledge and mindsets needed to create trusting partnerships with their horses. Warrick offers a free seven day trial to his comprehensive online video library that includes hundreds of full length training videos and several home Study courses@videos.warwickshiller.com.
- [00:45]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
G' day everyone. Welcome back to the Journey On Podcast. I'm your host, Warwick Schiller and my special guest this week on the podcast is a lady named Cara Giroux. Cara is a somatic psychotherapist, transformational couples coach, and founder of Equine Somatic Pathways. Her methods blend somatic psychology, equine ethology and relational horsemanship to help people restore connection to themselves and others while centering on the horse's welfare, regulation and agency. She's also the author of I love your heart and all your feeling Parts, a children's book that introduces families to parts work. Kara's early experiences with complex childhood trauma led her away from herself and into a highly successful corporate career. In adulthood, relationships bought a reckoning. A mind body shift opened the way to a profound spiritual reclaiming, reshaping how she understands the self and connection. Today, her work's devoted to the path of relationship as a guide for restoring regulation, truth and connection between humans and between humans and horses. So if that doesn't get you on the edge of your seat, I'm not sure what will. But yeah, I had a great chat with Kara, an exceptional human being. Can't wait for you guys to listen to this episode of the podcast. Kara Giraud, welcome to the Journey on podcast.
- [02:09]
Cara Giroux
Thank you for having me here Warwick. It's such an honor. And you and Robin and Tyler have made such an impact on my world and horse experience and life. So I'm full of gratitude.
- [02:22]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Well, you're here to tell us about your world, so why don't you share with the listeners what you currently do and then we'll unravel. How did you get there?
- [02:31]
Cara Giroux
Sure. So I currently work with the body and the nervous system and the parts of the self with people in relationship. And so my goal is to help people with connection and clarity and choice. And my healing journey took a long, windy, painful path and, and my hope and passion is how to help and support people and not taking quite so long and painful a route there.
- [03:09]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
I think sometimes it's, you know, it's set up to be long and painful. And that's just part of the, the thing, isn't it?
- [03:17]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, for sure, for sure. There's a lot of gems in that journey.
- [03:21]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
So you are a somatic psychotherapist. Let's unravel what exactly is a somatic psychotherapist for those who may not be aware of what that is?
- [03:31]
Cara Giroux
Sure. So somatic psychotherapy is body led psychotherapy. So when we think of psychotherapy, most people think of kind of talk therapy where you're telling your story, you're narrating, you're making sense in that way. And somatic psychotherapy looks at the patterns that live in the body, in the breath, in, in the posture, in movement and gesture. So a lot of people who know anything about somatic therapy often think of somatic experiencing, which is one small piece of a big branch of somatic psychotherapy. But underneath it all, it's the idea that before we make narrative, cognitive sense of any of the experiences in our life, we have a body lived experience, a mammalian survival response to that. And our, our body is going to remember those experiences to try to keep us safe and react accordingly. And that is going to trigger cognition and narrative later. But if we, if we don't, if we want to change patterns and we're not addressing the core of what's happened in the body, we're not really changing the pattern.
- [04:40]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You guys couldn't see Cara then, but she went into, she closed her eyes and she went into I'm channeling stuff mode. I loved it. So that's one of the things you do. Another thing you do is you're transformational couples coach. I mean, I know a little bit about that with you, but tell me what you do there.
- [05:00]
Cara Giroux
So I used to do long term couples therapy primarily in eft, emotionally focused therapy. And that was really rewarding, but painfully slow for couples. When people come into couples work, they're usually already in crisis, in a really painful place and have been there for quite a while and are looking for relief. And so seeing that pattern happen where people were struggling in long term therapy, I wanted to explore how to accelerate that process for, for people. So I came across relational life therapy, Terry Rail's work, and that just resonated with everything I had learned and integrated in my own STR in my 20 year marriage. And I had been to a lot of retreats as part of that journey. And so I wanted to bring together a lot of elements from relational life therapy with ritual and movement and somatic work. And so that's now looks like two day couple intensives. And they're destinational in that we're really trying to get out of the norm and, and break things up for people. So it's a really deep dive and intensive and beautiful in that people really come out seeing themselves in a, in a different way and, and are generally able to connect quite differently.
- [06:35]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
And so that two day. What was the word you used?
- [06:43]
Cara Giroux
Intensive.
- [06:43]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Thank you. That two, that two day intensive. It's with one couple at a time, isn't it?
- [06:50]
Cara Giroux
One. Yeah, one couple at a time.
- [06:51]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
And the reason I know that is because my wife and I went and did one of your, your two day intensives. And it was interesting. During COVID See, I traveled a lot. I always traveled a lot. So when I was, when I was training horses, I was going to horse shows, I was going a lot of weekends, travel a lot. And then during COVID when Rob and I were both at home, it got, it got bad like the worst had ever been. We'd been married for 25 years and something or other. And so we'd actually did some online couples counseling. And I thought it was great because the counselor took my side. It's like, yes, I was right. She's been a bit, you know, whatever. And so then when we met you and we're like, yeah, let's go up to Currish for this week. You know, this intensive weekend. Oh, it wasn't a. You didn't take sides. And not only did you not take sides, nobody was wrong. The whole thing was not about what they said and they shouldn't have said it. It was like, what, what, what juvenile? What young part of you did that? Did what they said touch like what unhealed part of you did it trigger? And it was. Yeah, it wasn't what I was expecting. I wanted someone to take my side.
- [08:11]
Cara Giroux
That's right. You can be right. But you'll pay. Yes, right.
- [08:15]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Yes. But being right is good. Yeah. So that was. Yeah, that's. That's amazing, that work. And then you're also the founder of Equine Somatic Somatic pathways. Tell me about that.
- [08:25]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, yeah. So very excited about it. So it's a model of work, of integrative somatic work. And it's primarily at its core, first self transformative course. And so I really believe we can do our best work when we've actively worked on our own edges in relationship. So the goal of the model is first exploring one's own edges in relationship with a horse. And so it's working on regulation first. Regulation for self, regulation for the horse. Really slowing down and getting into our tracking body. I become obsessed with animal tracking years ago and read everything I could because I found it so fascinating and regulating. And it's so interesting because all of the somatic psychology theories and work is so related to these things that our bodies knew. And we're just fundamental. Right. In all of these cultures as we know. And so it's slowing down tracking, taking away the idea of the horse's object or tool and really looking at a relational response to what's happening. So once regulation is there, we start working actively on relationship and asks. And that's inevitably where rupture happens in that moment and a lot of projection. And so we step out of that and. And that's when we dig into parts, work and the parts of ourself that come up and take away that reaction from the horse and the myth that's happening there in our story. And then once there's a really solid foundation that's built, we get into what I think is the coolest part, which is the developmental gesture work. And so when you think about developmental gestures, where we're born and we are, we arrive in this sensory body and that's our first kind of known language, and then we start moving into embodied gestures that we yield into our mother. We push up in a way we reach out and grasp, we pull, we release. All of these things are a non verbal relational dialogue. And funny enough, these are the things that come up in groundwork all of the time. These are our embodied dialogue gestures. And so the story is all there in that work. So it becomes this pathway into exploration of what are our pre verbal holdings in relationship and how do we use somatic tools to work through them real time.
- [11:15]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
So you saying a lot of this stuck stuff is actually from when we were pre verbal?
- [11:21]
Cara Giroux
Yeah.
- [11:21]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Really?
- [11:22]
Cara Giroux
Yeah. That's our very first relationship. And the coolest part about that is that it's not a big wild unwinding of can literally be these moments of like a really common one is that we see all the time. Right. When we're working with people with horses, someone asks a horse to back up, that's a push gesture. Right. And you might say, okay, ask the horse to take a step back and the human takes a step back or leans back or like something there. Right. So that tells us that push is inhibited in their history. Right.
- [12:02]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
The push is inhibited because one of the most common problems I see helping people at clinics and stuff is they'll ask a horse to move away from them while moving away from the horse. And they go, look, see, I made space. He got away from me. They didn't. But the problem with that is then when they actually ask the horse to actually move and do something, the horse has already, they've already proven to the horse that, that I'm not worthy of listening to. Because I'll ask you a question I don't want the answer to.
- [12:37]
Cara Giroux
Right.
- [12:37]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
And the thing is they don't. The thing is they don't know they're backing up when they do it. And I really feel like with horses that's where a lot of the mistrust comes from, you know, mistrust in person. Because the horse knows that the person doesn't even know what their body's doing, stuff they don't know it's doing.
- [13:02]
Cara Giroux
Right, right, right.
- [13:03]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
That's the most common one is the backup thing, you know. Yeah.
- [13:06]
Cara Giroux
Oh, interesting. That's really interesting. And so if we think of that, where that goes sideways for people, where it becomes inhibited. So our first gesture is the yields where we really melt right into our parent or mother. The second gesture is the push. So you can think of you push up and against. But then that develops further into an example, as a toddler might be, you're tired, it's past your nap time, whatever happens, and somebody goes to bring you your yogurt and you push it away. I don't want it, right, that like 2 year old and your parent has a reaction to that in the moment you just dumped your yogurt all over the room, right. And it might have been big or it might have just been stern, but you, your, your body saw that and maybe saw the anger or the upset, or maybe you made your parent cry or something happened in that moment that became a threat for the connection in the relationship, right? And so your body is going to learn that that movement and that gesture sacrifices safety in your body. And so then when you are, when you go to embody that gesture, there's going to be a mammalian response in your subcortical brain that says, do you want to invite a cougar into the room or do you want to be safe? Right. So someone says push. And you're like, I did, I pushed, but I, we didn't. And so what we want to do is slow that down, bring the body into the here and now where it is safe. And so we can titrate and pendulate, meaning we small doses of increase and a lot of Grounding to complete that movement and gesture. And so with horses, the two really cool things that happen are once that shift happens real time in the person, miraculously the horse does exactly what they ask. There's an instant relational shift and then that reinforces the loop of connection and updates the body of like, oh, actually now in the push, I get connection instead of rejection and pain.
- [15:29]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
It's taken me 10 years to get to a point to where I now understand that that's a big part of my problem. That, that particular piece right there. I didn't, I didn't figure it out while you were talking. We've figured it. We have figured it out. But there was a. Yeah, I've, I've got, I got one of those going on. So that's, that's, wow. Fascinating. You know, the. Let me talk. I was going to go to your book, but before we do, it seems that from what you sent me in your bio and stuff with the equine assisted work that you do, you're also very aware of making sure it's enriching for the horses too. Yes, because I've had a number of horses at clinics where the person who owns the horse isn't it, you know, equine assisted something or other therapist or whatever, and they used the horse in their work and they were the weirdest horse. It was some of the weirdest horses I've worked with. Like, and, and I would think, oh, these are the, these are the horses of the therapist. Like these horses are going to be really. And Noah, they weren't, they didn't tend to be highly anxious or whatever, but they just had some weird behavior patterns that were like really odd sort of a thing. And so I feel like sometimes, sometimes the horse might be a tool in, you know, might be a tool in those type of therapies, but they, they might be getting the wrong, you know, the short end of the stick.
- [17:11]
Cara Giroux
Absolutely. And I think that's common in a lot of trainings. Using the horse as a projective object and, and tool and, and it feels like such a missed opportunity to me in that the relational gold that's there in the. I don't think there's another place where we can be in our embodied non verbal language and get such gift and clarity and feedback and then so to use that in a way as actual feedback to shift and support and understand the horse's regulation, which will tell us so much about our own patterns of thought and insight and clarity. My hope is that it becomes more and more essential that the Horse has agency in the process.
- [18:06]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
That's good stuff. And the other thing you do is you're the author of a children's book called I love your heart and all your feeling parts. Tell us about that.
- [18:16]
Cara Giroux
Yeah. So I had found in my work with children that I was surprised there wasn't more of a central use of parts work for children. I find even really young children kind of more so than adults because they're in their unconscious imaginative world so easily respond to parts work and parents respond to parts work. And it really takes away some of the trigger. When you look at, there's a part of you that hates me right now and is angry and I know this other part of you is here. Let's look at what your angry part is saying. Right. It takes the heat away. Or your worry part is doing this. Let's push back on that. Let's not join it. So I wanted to create a story that was accessible for both kids and parents as a place to start to explore parts work.
- [19:14]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You know, it's fascinating. Think about that book. Think about if that was, you know, instead of reading Clifford the big red dog, you read that to your kid and so you become aware of this stuff from the beginning and you never forget it.
- [19:35]
Cara Giroux
Yeah.
- [19:35]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You know what I mean? We had some visitors here last weekend and we're sitting around and one of the, one of the two was a breathwork coach. And we did a breathwork session on Saturday night, which was absolutely insane. But we were talking about what if in school, like say grade school, primary school, you'd call it in Australia, we taught kids how to meditate and do yoga and that was just normal.
- [20:05]
Cara Giroux
Yeah.
- [20:08]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You know, think about, instead of trying to fix the problems later on, if we inserted practices that stopped the problem from actually occurring and a book like that for kids would be one of them. So you're aware of that part stuff.
- [20:23]
Cara Giroux
Right.
- [20:24]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You don't have to be 50 years old and then have someone tell you about that. And you're like, what?
- [20:28]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that's what parents that I work with, their children, their children will come home and explain to them some things that are happening. They'll reflect to me like I'm Learning from my 7 year old about parts of myself.
- [20:44]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Well, that's the thing. Like when they're that long. What was the term? You said they're still in their imaginative. What? What? What?
- [20:51]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, they have such access to their unconscious self through imagination. It's so accessible.
- [20:58]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Yeah. Have you ever heard that? You probably would have done that like infants, like toddlers at that age. You know, newborns sort of thing. They're in the same place you are when you're in psychedelics. You're like tripping.
- [21:14]
Cara Giroux
I hadn't heard that. That's amazing. And makes sense.
- [21:17]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
And so I was in Australia recently. I did a horse expo, New Zealand. But then I went to Australia to visit my parents because they're in their, you know, mid-80s, and so you never know when it's going to be your last visit. So you get there as much as you can. But anyway, my niece has a newborn, and I was looking at that baby, thinking about that, and I'm thinking, this baby's tripping balls. You know, like, just like they look at, they. They fixate on points around the room. They seem to be watching things moving that I don't see.
- [21:46]
Cara Giroux
Yes.
- [21:46]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You know what I mean?
- [21:48]
Cara Giroux
I know exactly what you mean. They're really present with a detail. Right. Or a movement or a color. And it's so alive for them. And you can see it in their eyes. Yes, yeah, yeah.
- [22:01]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
When babies look in the eye, they look into your soul, don't they? Like that.
- [22:04]
Cara Giroux
Yes.
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Warwick Schiller (Host)
They don't hold anything back.
- [22:06]
Cara Giroux
No. It's very cool. So connected. Yes.
- [22:09]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Yeah, very much so. Okay, let's unravel. How did you end up. How did you end up doing all this amazing work? And let me have a guess, because I've had a number of therapists on the podcast, and there seems to be a pattern that appears over a period of time, is that they had some issues, got some help for those issues and were like, that was amazing. I want to do this for others.
- [22:37]
Cara Giroux
Bingo.
- [22:37]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Bingo.
- [22:41]
Cara Giroux
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I grew up in Rhode island, which. In a very small mill town, blue collar kind of place.
- [22:53]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Mill town. So wood mills, it was.
- [22:58]
Cara Giroux
Textile mills. It had all these old mills, like on the rivers and that sort of thing. Pretty gritty place. And very east coast in that the only form of false intimacy or emotional intimacy was how brutally you could sarcastically destroy one another. Right. Like, that was the art form of how you related.
- [23:24]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You know what? You know, think about the East Coast. You know, that's where all the immigrants from England came to Australia, was settled by the English. And sarcasm is an art form in Australia. It's. It's the main method of communication.
- [23:41]
Cara Giroux
Yeah.
- [23:41]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Like, you're in Australia, your worst enemy is a bastard and your best friends are bloody bastards. You know what I mean?
- [23:48]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, that's absolutely. Yeah.
- [23:52]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
So I. Can we riff on that for a minute because.
- [23:54]
Cara Giroux
Yeah.
- [23:55]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
In the, in the unraveling of me or figuring out who I am underneath all that stuff. When you live in a sarcastic environment, it's just, it's just normal. You don't think anything of it. But later on when you look back you go like, yeah, that stuff, it gets under the skin and you don't even know it's getting under there. And yeah, it's.
- [24:24]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, you have to exile. For me, my experience was, well, it's two things. You've got to be pretty hyper vigilant and attuned to what's happening because in that, at least in that world, for me, if you're making fun of the other person brutally and everybody's laughing at someone else, you're not the but of the joke. Right. Your vulnerability is not as exposed. So there's a hyper vigilance. You're certainly not going to reveal things that are, are going to be made fun of. And so there's a unconscious group exiling of vulnerability and need and then a false empowerment that happens around how good you are at kind of breaking somebody else down in a hilarious way. And so it's a like cultural agreement around. And then the other flip side of it that I think is really interesting is there is a weird intimacy in it as well. Like you're really being seen by people in this way. And I think it replaces other intimacy. It's like the backwards way of stating closeness or having some emotional connection.
- [25:45]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Yeah, yeah, sounds, sounds very similar to how Australia at least worked back when I was a kid. Anyway, sorry to interrupt your story. So Rhode island sarcasm is a form of communication. It's an art form.
- [25:59]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, very Catholic place.
- [26:01]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
So lots of, lots of shame about.
- [26:06]
Cara Giroux
Everything basically. And. Yeah, and so before I get into the really hard stuff, I think the miraculous start that I had was having a mother who, despite norms at the time being kind of Dr. Spock and don't spoil the baby and you know, those types of things, was extremely gifted with babies and toddlers. And so I know that my first year, couple of years, it was sort of an attachment parenting when there was an attachment parenting at the time we co. Slept and I was held a lot and all of that sort of thing. And so naming that gift and also again, because we're going to get into some hard stuff, naming and acknowledging the ancestral, especially maternal line of what these women were dealing with. My grandmother was very Catholic and had 11 children after the Great Depression because contraception was against the Catholic Church. Right. So like dealing with all of that and the coldness and traumatic history. And her family might own mother was a sister in the convent from ages 16 to 15 to 26. So her adolescent was spent in a convent in the Catholic Church. And so a lot of shutdown and disconnection and rigidity and lack of emotional connection and resource in that family. And then despite that, some very loving things that overcame the oppressiveness. Right. In their history. So, yes. So I'm living in this place where there's not a lot of emotional intimacy and connection and there's not a lot of resource. So people are stressed. And my cousin, who was my age was the. Was one of the people I was hanging out the most. And unfortunately, there was sexual trauma from her father. So my biological aunt's husband was a sexual predator who eventually went to jail for that. And so I have the experience of that trauma over time and as well am living in the fear because I'm told that I'm responsible too, by him and. And that the police will take me away from my family should I tell anyone. Right. So I'm. I remember like, hearing sirens and hiding, thinking like, okay, it's happening. Someone's, you know, someone's going to take me away. So very young and living in that. And as is common with child sexual trauma, there's the trauma of what happened, and then there's the trauma of the family's response to the trauma. And so at some point, I tell my mother what's happened, and it was like the worst fear was confirmed in that I felt in trouble for having told her. Right. And.
- [29:44]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
So you feel very alone at this point in time.
- [29:46]
Cara Giroux
Oh, wildly alone. And this. This miraculous thing happened, though, in that moment that I went to my room after and I heard her go to the phone, and of course I'm like, oh, who's she calling? What's, you know, what's next? What's going to happen? So I sneak. There's landlines then, of course. Right. So I sneak to another landline and I pick up the other phone and I'm listening to what she's saying, and she called my grandmother and she relays to my grandmother what I've told her. And I hear my grandmother say, you need to tell her it wasn't her fault. And my mom says, yeah, yeah. And then like, moves on and never did. And in fact, we didn't talk about it until I was an adult. But I heard it. I heard it. And that changed everything in that moment. I'll circle back to that a bit more. And so I go on and I'M in the despair of what's happened in the trauma, and then feeling this blame. But instead of sitting in the blame of it myself, that echo of what my grandmother told me brings this feeling of fight, of like, hold on, what's going on here? And so I'm made to be around him in church and he was illiterate, so he was coming over for reading lessons with my mother. So he's in my home and I'd be sobbing after and kind of ignored in that. And that part of me was so in despair and started to get angry about that. And so this is going on over time. And the older I'm getting, the more I'm making sense of just how wrong and horrible it is. And then a bunch of other things are happening in my world and life. I switch from Catholic school into public school and go from this, like, kind of naive environment into this pretty tough environment where people are cruel and. And so I feel, like, rejected and alone. So all these echoes of alone are happening and eventually I become deeply suicidal. Like, really dark night of the soul of like, why am I here? What is the purpose? This is just like, all brutal and suffering. And I can remember.
- [32:18]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
How old were you at the time?
- [32:20]
Cara Giroux
I was probably nine.
- [32:21]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Holy cow.
- [32:23]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, really young. Nine or ten. And I can remember this night of being in my bedroom, in my bed and just sobbing with this why, why, why? Like, what is this? Why am I here? And it was the why to God, right? Here I am going to church every Sunday. I'm praying. You know, I'm. There's supposed to be some purpose in this life and it is all. All pain, all loneliness. Like, my only resource were animals and there were very few around, but I resourced in them wildly. And that. That breaking point was this, I think, night of rejection of, like, screw everything and every. Like, there's. There's no God. There's no. Like, there's no family that loves me. There's no right. And so in that moment, that was like this big, really brilliant parts flip within me where it went from. I'm going to feel all of this pain and despair and hope that someone's going to connect with me in it, because that's what. That's what the cries are. Or like this plea of like, someone see me. And then that. The. That part. And later in my life, I saw this as that young part of me being sent, like, deep into a forest, into the fog, and just told to sit and wait there and not wait for a rescue, but, like, wait. Like, it's your job, right? You just have to go and hide here. And this warrior part of me emerged and it was like a absolute manifestation of I will get so far away from here, I will be so wildly successful that I will never have to see this place again. I will never worry about money. I will never worry about being okay. Like, I will, I will be free, so wildly free of this. And it became this truth of knowing I'm out of here. I don't, I don't have to focus on any of this. I don't have to feel any of this. I, I am out. And so this wasn't happening consciously, but this became my embodiment, my truth of I will get out of here.
- [34:55]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
And so, so if this was a movie right about then, like, yeah, like there would be a close up of your eyes and like flames would appear in your eyeballs or something. You know, like, you know, like the warrior spirit.
- [35:10]
Cara Giroux
Exactly.
- [35:11]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Is it working?
- [35:12]
Cara Giroux
Exactly right. And I don't remember after that feeling, like when I was hurt, when the social things were happening, it was just a big screw you. Like, I, I don't care. I'm out, right? This, this doesn't matter to me. And then that's when the, the manifesting happened. It was like in that complete belief. And so, so I would study hard because I knew I needed to get out, right. I would work in that way. Everything I did was about, I'm getting out of here. And I wasn't in a place where people went to college or like, that wasn't normal that you would leave necessarily. Right. What was normal was you got like a retail job and you, you know, something like that. So, But I, I was so sure of it. And so I'm 15 years old and I'm calling my dad who worked at a retail store, and I misdial the phone number. So his phone number was 946-3100 and I dial 943-3100, right? And someone says, congressman Jack Reed's office. And so I say, hi, I'm a high school student and I'm calling to see if you have any internships open.
- [36:30]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
That just came out of your mouth, like right then because you were prepared to talk to your dad.
- [36:34]
Cara Giroux
Yeah.
- [36:34]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
So you weren't thinking internships?
- [36:37]
Cara Giroux
No.
- [36:37]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Really?
- [36:38]
Cara Giroux
Not at all? Not at all. Yeah. So they say, absolutely. When would you like to come in and we'll have a talk and da, da, da, da, Right. So I end up going there the next week and they, they show me how to clip newspaper articles and File them. And so I'm going there twice a week for a couple hours clipping newspaper articles and filing them. And so where is, is this in.
- [37:02]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
The town you live in next?
- [37:04]
Cara Giroux
It's, it's in an adjacent town. Exactly. Yeah. And so I'm meeting nice people there and just hanging out and doing that. And so one day one of the people in the office comes over to me and says, hey, we want to let you know we're going to nominate you to be a page in Congress in Washington D.C. now you have to fill out this application and we want you to know it's so unlikely you will get this. Jack Reed is a first year congressman, first term congressman. It's a big honor for congressmen to get this. Really senior people get this generally. So I don't want, don't get your hopes up.
- [37:44]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
What is a page?
- [37:46]
Cara Giroux
A page is a high school student who is. There's a program where you live. It's no longer, but, but it used to be a program where you live like, it's kind of like a boarding school. So you go to school a couple hours in the morning and then you spend the rest of the day working on the Congressional House floor, helping out congressmen and offices and delivering messages and letting people know when votes are happening. So you're interacting with these congressional leaders, meeting the President, meeting the speakers of the House. Right. It's like this wild thing. And so I fill out the application and I start telling people I'm going, I'm like, I'm going to this, I'm going to go Live in Washington D.C. i'm going to get this thing. Even though I was told it's, you know, it's very unlikely it's going to happen. So a few months later, I get the phone call, can you be in Washington D.C. in five days? And I'm 16 years old and like even I haven't, I don't know, I have like in that town where we lived, you didn't, you actually like didn't drive more than 15 minutes away. Nobody went anywhere. So this was such a wild thing. Wild reality. Right? So I show up there in this place and everyone there is like their families are well connected. You know, they're, these are like this echelon of. Right. That I've never seen or met. And I'm getting to, to witness these people and, and what I saw really quickly was, is sort of like, oh, like most of these people, everything's been done for them in, in certain ways. And so like they can't they can't read the room, they can't strategize. They're like doing all this work they don't have to do because they like, they can't see the system that they're in and know how to succeed. And so that the protector in me, it was like this incredible validation of like, oh, you've got this, right? Like this is easy. Look at, look at it. The game is easy to play, right? You've just got to keep playing. So I spend that year in D.C. and then that helps me apply for scholarships for college ultimately because I, I go on to study political science and, and literature and then, and then I'm really out. Right. I'm out of that world. And after college I work in the nonprofit world for a couple of years and, and where did you go to college? American University in Washington D.C. okay.
- [40:36]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
And why political science?
- [40:39]
Cara Giroux
I thought I would get a scholarship because I, because I was a page and, and that it would be like a really easy bridge and I was interested in it. I had spent a year in Congress, like seeing the ins and outs there, but I knew pretty quickly I didn't really want to be in that game and wasn't sure what I wanted to do. So that led me to the non profit world.
- [41:04]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Who was the president at the time?
- [41:06]
Cara Giroux
The president at the time was. Was it Bill Clinton? Was Bill Clinton? Yeah, yeah.
- [41:20]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
And did you meet him?
- [41:23]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, yeah, he spoke to the page.
- [41:25]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Oh really? Group?
- [41:27]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, yeah, all of the congressional leaders did. Yeah. It was, it was wild and like connected. This thing of like almost like nothing's out of reach. Right. Like if I can go from that to here, like anything's possible.
- [41:44]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Right. It's that validation that anything's possible.
- [41:48]
Cara Giroux
Right. And so brilliant in getting me out, but also really reinforcing that protector strategy of you've just gotta not feel. Work really hard and escape. Right. It feels good to escape. It feels good to get further away. So in the nonprofit world could see as I thought it was like maybe a do good kind of place. And it was more kind of like backdoor foundational deals for grants and that sort of thing, which felt like, let's.
- [42:22]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Back up because we've, we've left college. Tell me about. So you, you said you got into non profit stuff. How did you get into that? Like what led you to.
- [42:32]
Cara Giroux
I think I just applied for jobs that were like adjacent to having a degree in political science in, in D.C. i stayed in D.C. for a while and so there were a lot of nonprofit type jobs and what sort of.
- [42:44]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Non profits were you involved in?
- [42:47]
Cara Giroux
It was communications. So it was a non profit that helped strategize communications for kind of startup nonprofits who needed help at the time.
- [42:58]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
So it's a non profit to help nonprofits.
- [43:02]
Cara Giroux
Exactly.
- [43:04]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Is everybody benefiting from this or is this nonprofit just a, just a shell game where it's a tax write off?
- [43:10]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, exactly. That's how it felt. That's how it felt. And then the culturally within the nonprofits, it was, it was not kind and generous, you know, so I was like, what's going on? If I'm gonna, if it's gonna suck to work, why not make money, you know, doing it?
- [43:29]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Let's back up to that though. Like, yeah, this is a non profit. These are supposed to be caring, empathetic people doing stuff for the good of all. And the culture sucks.
- [43:40]
Cara Giroux
Oh, it was terrible. It was mean. Yeah, it was me, it was, it was, and it was so weird because it was mostly women and I expected it to feel a certain like warm way and it was not that way at all. Yeah, yeah. So that it felt like, well, if I'm gonna deal with that anyway, let's make money doing it. And so I, this was, I think the next big manifesting. I was like, I'm going to move to New York City. I had friends there and I think at the time I had 150 bucks or something like in my savings. And I, I just decided I would get a job within two weeks. Like, absolutely, that was going to happen, that I would have a job within two weeks. And so I moved to New York City, no prospects whatsoever, no money, and then just sort of hitting the pavement. And eight days later I have a job and I'm employed. But this time it's commercial real estate at Rockefeller center on Fifth Avenue. Being an assistant to the head of leasing for Rockefeller Center. Right. So crazy. Yeah, crazy. Different environment there and ends up that the person I'm working for is this really established person in the commercial real estate world, lives in la, you know, comes to New York back and forth to meet and negotiate and didn't want to travel as much as he was. So he mentored me and let me take on kind of anything I could do and was capable of doing. And so I learned a lot about commercial real estate. But I think more importantly, he let me sit in on every meeting and phone call that he had. I would dial the number and kind of connect him and listen on the phone. And he was this incredible master negotiator and so talk about a guy who had control of his nervous system. Right? Like, he could read the room, know what needed to happen for that particular person. I would. We would, you know, be in one meeting and he would be one guy. We'd go in the next meeting, and he was a completely different person to get the result he wanted from that negotiation. And so it was like this masterclass in watching how to negotiate from him is incredible. So he let me do more and more. And so all of a sudden I'm, you know, I'm in my early 20s and I'm negotiating deals at Rockefeller Center. I'm. It's my having lunch at Jean Georges with tenants, you know, potential prospect tenants and things like, things that, like, were so wild to me at the time.
- [46:41]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You went to New York with 150 bucks, and now lunch costs 150 bucks.
- [46:45]
Cara Giroux
Yeah. Or 400. Right. It's like. Yeah, exactly. And. And so, you know, my protector has succeeded. Right. I am now financially independent. I am. I have choice around my life. I'm successful. I'm living in New York City. I'm like, doing all of the things. And I am like a through and through New Yorker in that I'm utterly impatient. I'm angry and triggered all of the time. Everything is too slow for me. Humans are stupid. Right. I don't like anyone. I can't trust anyone. Everyone's an idiot. It's like I'm living in total disconnection. But I'm safe. I've escaped.
- [47:37]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Right. And so before you go any further, can we. Yeah, can we. You just talked about your protector was working really well. And that's. That's a reference to one of your parts we didn't talk about. We talked a little bit about parts work. Can you, for the people listening, can you list the. The bit players in the parts? Because I'm sure you. We're going to start talking about those here in a bit, so.
- [48:01]
Cara Giroux
Sure. Yes, yes.
- [48:03]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
What the parts are and why they're there.
- [48:05]
Cara Giroux
Sure, yeah. So all of us come into the world sort of uninhibited and open, and inevitably our family systems have certain capacities and certain limitations. And so from a young age, we're going to experience those limitations as wounding for us. Right. So even if there isn't big T, big capital T trauma, there's going to be relational misses and things that hurt us as a human experience. And so we will learn in order to stay in connection or in safety that feeling those wounds constantly is not good for us. And so we will learn to exile some of those parts which can look like need or want or feeling. And we'll find a strategy to help ourself to not feel those things. So those would be the protectors. Right. And so there's different models around parts work, but you might have manager parts that come in and really drive you. Like my worker part. You might have firefighters that come in and when there's a crisis and the whole goal is to not feel the wound. Right. So they're working really hard so you don't feel the thing. Yeah.
- [49:30]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
So you got, you got. Are you going with managers, exiles, managers, firefighters, protectors? Is that what.
- [49:36]
Cara Giroux
Well, the protect the managers and the firefighters fall under the protector categories.
- [49:41]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Okay.
- [49:42]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, they fall under this.
- [49:43]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Okay. So when you, so when you said before your, your protector parts are working really well. So now you're financially independent, you're successful. What you're saying is that you are now successful and financially independent because of a trauma.
- [50:03]
Cara Giroux
Right, Right. Endlessly driven, workaholic. Yeah. Relentless. Can strategize and be hyper vigilant and see the system really, really well. Right. These are all I'll say to clients a lot, your super skills show you your shadow. Right. So like these things that we're gifted at often are a result of navigating a complex system from the time you were young. And so they become a super skill. But there, there is a cost and.
- [50:39]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Yeah, there's a reason it's there. One of the things I have been told over the years like doing clinics and stuff is that I'm very good at explaining things, explaining things in a way people understand. And what I've come to realize is it comes from a people pleasing tenant. Like I do not want anybody to leave here thinking that guy didn't know what he was talking about or whatever. So it's a super skill I got because I wouldn't want anybody to leave here being confused and maybe that guy doesn't know what he's talking about, whatever, you know what I mean? And it's only been a couple of years now that I've like figured that out. That, oh yeah, there's a. It's there, you know, that. Yeah, I practiced and worked on the ability to explain things from a wounding. Like I don't want anybody to think poorly of me. So I've got to make sure everybody's happy.
- [51:39]
Cara Giroux
Right, Right.
- [51:41]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Yeah.
- [51:42]
Cara Giroux
Fascinating. Yeah.
- [51:43]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
And now, you know, and now I have the, now I have the, the skill of being able to explain things really well. But now I have to make sure I'M not doing it for the wrong reason, you know, now.
- [51:54]
Cara Giroux
Yeah.
- [51:54]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You know what I mean?
- [51:55]
Cara Giroux
Yeah. Right. That's the whole game of. Yeah. Can we use. It's. Yeah. It's not to exile our super skills, but do we use them in choice or are they the unconscious survival pattern of hyper vigilance? Yeah.
- [52:08]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Sorry to interrupt.
- [52:09]
Cara Giroux
So, yeah, no, no, I think it's great.
- [52:11]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
So you're now your. Your protectors, working your success, financially independent. You're successful and you're angry.
- [52:19]
Cara Giroux
Super, super angry, super disconnected. And so what's the answer to that? More work, more success. Right. I need to. I need to be promoted. I need to do more. So you're on the hamster wheel. Yes, Hardcore running. Right. So my boss and mentor, after about five years in New York, helps me to get promoted and get a job with the Gap, which at the time is this big deal. And so I get an interview in San Francisco, I get the job.
- [52:53]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
The Gap clothing company.
- [52:55]
Cara Giroux
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I moved to San Francisco for that job and comically hate it. I mean, I like the job, but. But California, as compared to my impatient, grumpy, like, New York stance and the. How sensitive people are, the whole thing, I just like. I'm like, okay, two years and I'm out of here. This is terrible.
- [53:19]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
What's funny is knowing you now and then you're like, yeah, I don't like these people are all too sensitive.
- [53:29]
Cara Giroux
Exactly. It's so comical. Occasionally someone will say to me, you know, people don't change. Really. Like, there's no. It doesn't change. And I just laugh, like, okay, sure, yeah. So I meet my husband, who was also in commercial real estate and worked at the Gap, and a couple years later we get married. And then a couple years later we have our first child. And during that pregnancy is the first time since that initial kind of dark night of the soul collapse that I'm forced to face that part of myself because I'm. I end up incredibly ill during the pregnancy. So I spend four months on and off in the hospital. And so my. I, you know, I can't move. I'm very sick and I'm in bed and living on the west coast, so any kind of community or connection I have doesn't exist. It's just my husband and he's working a lot and traveling for work, and so I'm alone. And so when our protectors are doing their thing, especially when it's for a long time keeping us from feeling, and then inevitably we hit the wall where they can't block us from feeling that exiled part. It's like a flood when you're faced with hitting it. And it's so uncomfortable and painful. And so then we sort of bounce all over the place, right? Usually from fight back to freeze back to fight to freeze, because the being with the overwhelming feeling is too much. And so I went from depression to angry at my husband to, you know, despair. And I'm. So. I'm in this sort of cycle. I get through the pregnancy, and then I'm. I have a newborn preemie. We had to deliver early. And so that had its own complications. So it's kind of like slow. Slowdown after slowdown. I'm hitting all these blocks to my normal protector strategies. And so then the relationship with my husband starts to deteriorate because I. I have no ground. I'm totally dysregulated and then regulated and then dysregulated. And then the answer to that. The answer to all the things I'd known so far was fight, right? Like, if things aren't good, you fight, you push, you drive, you know, sort of thing. And so, of course, that's hooking all my husband's stuff, because that's what we do, right? It's like you're pushing on me, right? And so we get into these loops that are these projective loops and really painful of, like, you're the reason for all of my pain in this moment. And so we do that for a couple of years on and off, until we're at this point of reckoning in. I don't think this is going to work. Right. Looking at divorce. And so we went to several different couples therapists. And I mean, like, the only. At the time, the only thing that worked in the couples therapy would be us both hating the therapist. Like.
- [57:01]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Like, you could. You could band together around the fact you're therapist. Therapist.
- [57:07]
Cara Giroux
That was it. That was. That was like the. The gold. And so I was in my. I'd been since the pregnancy. I'd been doing my own individual therapy. And I said to my therapist, you know, I think I feel like we need, like, we need some kind of radical reset, like a retreat or like something like, big. And she said, you know, I know these people who are doing a retreat soon. You want the info? And so they. We get the info.
- [57:37]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
What happened to the. The uptight New York person you're asking for, I want to go to a retreat.
- [57:42]
Cara Giroux
Well, and I think. Because totally. And I think being faced with the. The pain of feeling the wounded part and and like, being in that despair was like finding help in some way. And probably also being in California for a few years led to normalized therapy.
- [58:01]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
So I just had a thought.
- [58:03]
Cara Giroux
Sure.
- [58:04]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You, you had said, you know, when you were sick, you spent a lot of time in bed, so you're not busy doing anything. It just occurred to me that, oh, that's why this, this stuff came up. Because your protector.
- [58:19]
Cara Giroux
Exactly.
- [58:20]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Keep you busy to keep it hidden.
- [58:22]
Cara Giroux
Exactly.
- [58:23]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Okay, sorry, I didn't realize.
- [58:25]
Cara Giroux
Yeah.
- [58:26]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
When you said so, I spent a lot of time in bed and I thought you were going to make a point about that, but you went on and now I realize, oh, you had to be still not doing things for a long time.
- [58:39]
Cara Giroux
Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So I could not distract myself. I could disassociate into TV or other things for a while, but my known way of fighting wasn't accessible except in my relationship.
- [58:59]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You know, a number of years ago now, when I started doing things differently with horses, especially clinics where I would have people do something and then just stand there and wait. And I was waiting for the horses to process that whatever just happened and waiting for them to actually regular, you know, come back down to homeostasis, like stand, you know, because they're probably a lot of times in a little bit of freeze mode sort of thing after that. And then wait for him to just have a big breath and lick and achieve whatever. And what I noticed was the people, when I made them stand there and wait for a long time and not do anything, they'd start to cry.
- [59:39]
Cara Giroux
Yeah.
- [59:39]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
And I had no idea why at the time.
- [59:42]
Cara Giroux
Yeah.
- [59:45]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Yeah. I mean, I'd had people cry at clinics before because I said something stupid, but this was like, I wasn't even there. I was on the other side of the arena and all of a sudden I look over and this person's. And I'd go, are you okay? And one of them was like, oh, I just. I just thought of something that my mother said when I was 10 or whatever. You know, like stuff started coming up just from having those people not do anything. Yeah. When they were.
- [60:14]
Cara Giroux
Yeah.
- [60:15]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Not being busy. Sorry to interrupt that. Sorry. I was. I went back. No, I think I went back to the bed thing. And it made, Ah, now it makes sense that you're not.
- [60:23]
Cara Giroux
Yeah.
- [60:23]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You're not doing all the time. And that's why this stuff comes up.
- [60:28]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think that the. Not only does this stuff come up, but then we're looking for a place to put this stuff or someone to put it on of like I wouldn't be feeling this thing. So for me it was with my husband. I wouldn't. If you were somehow better or more attuned or showed up differently or I wouldn't have to feel this way, right? I wouldn't, I wouldn't. It's your fault I'm feeling this way. Instead of me having the resource or awareness that oh, I am feeling my 9 year old loneliness and despair and disconnection right now. And of course I am. And I need to care for that self. I need to resource for that self or to even speak to my husband in that way about that of like this is what I'm feeling right now. Can we, can, can you help me or support me in this? It was more. If you were different, I wouldn't be feeling this. And so it's your fault that I'm feeling it. Which is what we do in relationship, right? So, so, so I get the info for this retreat and if we had had more time, if the, if the retreat weren't literally in, in 14 days in Hawaii and we had to just like make childcare arrangements and go, if we had really thought about it, I'm sure we never would have gone. But we just jumped in and so we, you know, we show up and it ends up being this vipassana meditation, Buddhist therapist, teacher. And we walk in and there's you know, dancing and meditation and movement and all of these things. So absolutely my New Yorker self is like I am in a bad movie, right? Like that's the only way I can. I'm in this comical movie. But here we are. My, my marriage is falling apart. Like we've got to get something.
- [62:27]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
I think I've seen this movie. I think it's Vince Vaughn and Jennifer Aniston, I think.
- [62:32]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So we're there, this hippie retreat on the beach. And so the meditating slowed me down in a resourced way. And that was the first look for me at parts work in understanding that parts of myself even existed and that I was absolutely lacking in any accountability and self responsibility for my reactions, my behaviors and my blame. And it was, it was a radical reset to me seeing where my anger came from, where my pain was located or not located within my body. And it really shook us both up to our core and reconnected us in beautiful ways to this place of like, oh, I am like not the person I think I am. And there's so much more possibility in this relationship of this person who's willing to go to this crazy place with me and what does it mean for myself and who I am? So that was the first sort of big opening of curiosity and it led to more couples work in that way and it led to more somatic exploration for me. So I'm going on with my career and at this point I'm going back to work and I get the ultimate job offer at the time which I'm invited to co lead North America at Apple. Right. And back then this is like Apple's still big, but then it was sort of the, the dream. It doesn't get any better, right. For from a success perspective. And I'm like 29, 30 years old.
- [64:39]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
And so when you say co lead North America, is that in the, the property part of the corporate real estate?
- [64:47]
Cara Giroux
Yeah. And so I start working at Apple and it's sort of a trippy experience there, right. Because I worked in different corporate environments and there's something particular to the environment at Apple where everyone is like really capable and smart and eager and present. Right. And you feel that as you're walking around, as you're, as you're working. And then within the department I was in, what I quickly saw were a lot of erratic, intense behaviors that were very unhealthy and extreme and were impacting people's health and well being. And now I have kind of more self awareness and, and I'm getting curious of like, wow, okay, what is happening here? These, they're like all these smart, super capable people who could get a job anywhere and they're looking ill from reactions from this management that's happening and I'm witnessing and they're staying here. Like I was really trying to make sense of it and so I start asking questions of like what's, is this normal? Like what's going on here? And they're like, yeah, yeah, you'll see, you'll see, it's, it's addictive. You'll see. You'll get your first stock drop at six months and then the golden handcuffs come and, and they.
- [66:36]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Okay, so you.
- [66:38]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, yeah.
- [66:39]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
So what? You, you have shares and they become vested or something or.
- [66:43]
Cara Giroux
Exactly.
- [66:44]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Really? Okay, so they're all got the golden handcuffs on.
- [66:47]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, exactly. And, and, and I'm like, but, but like surely, right. Like I, because I'm just watching it like, oh, seeing, seeing this happen. And so then this inner conflict happens for me right where I, I now have this, this awareness of starting to see that this drive and this want for safety and protection is, has, has helped me escape and is also keeping Me from feeling a lot. And then I'm in this environment that feels reminiscent of the extreme situations I've been in in the past. And I'm around three months in and things had gotten more extreme, as they, like, tended to do there. They went up and down. And I think I go on a. Like, there's like a company picnic or like, something like that. And on the bus there in the morning, I, like, turned to somebody and he said, how are you today? And I said, I'm great. How are you? And he, like, looked at me like, and I. And I. So I looked back like, what, what was that? And he said, oh, it's just kind of surprising to hear someone, like, be great. Like the, like, that was the vibe, right? It was so, so intense. And so this, this internal reckoning happened where it was like, okay, this is the, the dream career path, right? It's not going to get any better for me. And do. And I knew that if I waited till six months and I got that first stock drop, that I wasn't going to be able to say no to the next six months and the next six months and the next 6 months. So am I going to sacrifice and live in this? And part of me was like, I'm tough. Like, I'm tougher than these people around me. I could take, you know, like, what comes. I'm good at my job. Like, I'm not going to get as much heat or da, da, da. So I could. It's not that I couldn't do was like, but I do. I want to do. I want to do it. And so that's when the first, like, is this the right career for me? Is this what I'm. What I want to do started to be explored. And so my husband was wildly supportive of me walking away. And it was a really hard thing to do. But ultimately I ended up finding a butterfly post it note and wrote my resignation on that post it note and put it on my laptop and like, dropped it off on my boss's desk on a Sunday. And here, please consider this my formal resignation and left it there for him and walked away from that career.
- [69:38]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You resigned on a post it note? Okay.
- [69:43]
Cara Giroux
Yep. That was like, kind of my, like, that's, That's.
- [69:46]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Isn't that really close to ghosting?
- [69:49]
Cara Giroux
Very close. But, but. And I think that was my kind of like, you know, middle finger to the. I'm out. Like, this is. I, I don't agree with this. I don't subscribe to it. It's. It's not healthy. It's not okay to treat people this way. And not saying all of Apple was that way was particular to what I witnessed in my department. But very unhealthy behaviors and sad and disconnected to try to drive and motivate people from a place of control and rage.
- [70:30]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
While you were at Apple, did you have anything to do with Steve Jobs?
- [70:34]
Cara Giroux
He was there, so he was my boss's boss.
- [70:37]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Just because from what I've read about, you were talking about manifesting stuff from early on.
- [70:42]
Cara Giroux
Yeah.
- [70:43]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
And I've heard about. He had a. What do they call it, the distortion field or something or other. But he had such a manifesting sort of mind that. That it was like, this is going to happen sort of thing. And things that logistically couldn't work.
- [71:01]
Cara Giroux
Right.
- [71:02]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
When he said this is going to work, worked, you know, he just had that, from what I've read, you know, so I'm just.
- [71:07]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, yeah, well. And I think the other. So what. What was told to me there was that the management style that was happening in my department was echoed by his management style. And so part of that unfortunate manifesting system there was the relentless, dysregulated driving into. Yeah. Things working. So. Yeah, yeah. Not the best.
- [71:36]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
So then what did you do? You know, now you're unemployed.
- [71:39]
Cara Giroux
Now I'm unemployed and decide I'm gonna go back to school. So I had. When I. When I moved to San Francisco, one of the things that happened for me was connecting with horses. So I had no resources when I was young to explore being with horses.
- [71:57]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
But you did mention animals.
- [72:00]
Cara Giroux
Yes, yes.
- [72:03]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
What were those animals?
- [72:06]
Cara Giroux
So my grandfather had two dogs, and I eventually found a cat, a stray cat that I, like, snuck into my house and adopted as my own. And really, if I was around anywhere and there was an animal, it was sort of my mission to make friends with, that being, because I think it was the only place where that exiled part felt safe and trust and so that young part could actually come out and be curious and present. And so when I started taking riding lessons when I moved to San Francisco, I think that was the part of me I reconnected with in that way. And I think for many of us, that that part of what feels almost addictive about being with horses and that is. Is being with that part of ourselves that horses allow us to be with. And so I was experiencing that. And the horses I was with in those lessons were. Were not happy beings. They were. They were kind of kept in these box stalls and used in lessons quite a lot. And I Could see and feel like their anger there. And I knew nothing about horses, but a relationally wanted. Wanted it to be better for them. So I would volunteer and spend time and figure out how like things that they liked, like, let's go graze or let's go for a walk or let me really listen to what you want. And I could see that change them and their experience, and I could see the way they responded to me. And so that became sort of a fascination and started discovering what at the time was natural horsemanship. And see, I. What I saw was a lot of the somatic things I was working on in my personal therapy. I could see things playing out that I didn't understand at all at the time, but I could see there were relational dynamics happening between people and horses that I thought were very related to what I was learning about myself. And so when I was talking with my husband after leaving commercial real estate, it was sort of like if I could do anything, I would want to figure out how somatic psychology was relating to these things I'm seeing with horses, because I think there's so much there. And so that's what I did. I went and got a master's in somatic psychotherapy.
- [74:55]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
And where did you. Where'd you go for that?
- [74:58]
Cara Giroux
California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco. So it's one of the few somatic psychology programs in the country. And Don Hanlo Johnson, who is the founder. Was. Is sort of the founder of. Not sort of. He's the founder of the field of somatics in that he saw everything that was going on many years ago and thought it was a field and really brought all of those people and theories together.
- [75:27]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
What's his name?
- [75:29]
Cara Giroux
Don Hanlo Johnson.
- [75:31]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
That's three.
- [75:31]
Cara Giroux
And so he.
- [75:32]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
That's three words.
- [75:33]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, three.
- [75:35]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
What's the second one?
- [75:36]
Cara Giroux
He's got some Hanlow. H A N L O W Johnson. So he was. I was the last cohort of students. I was there for his. His last cohort. And so he was such a brilliant mind to learn from. And I remember my first semester talking to him about my interest in horses and what I was seeing. And. And he was like, yes, yes, yes. Like go study that, do that. It's very encouraging. So it was a beautiful, very experiential cohort. And so. So I start there at that program and I'm in my first year. And as part of your learning there, you're required to be an individual Somatic psychotherapy. You have to do a year of therapy throughout the three years at some point. So I am taking a trauma class, and I'm reading a book by Pat Ogden called Trauma in the Body, which is a really great book, Sensory motor psychotherapy book. And I'm somewhere in the book, and there's a chapter on talking about numbness and disassociation. And I remember sitting on the sofa reading this chapter, and it's like one of those movies where you look at the page and a certain word starts just, like, leaping out at you. And it's like, numb, numb, numb, numb, numb.
- [77:15]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
I.
- [77:15]
Cara Giroux
It's. It's. It's hitting me over the head. Numbness. And I had. I had no idea that I was numb In. In the work I had done up to that point. There was no realization that my body was completely numb to, like, pain, exhaustion, sadness, all of it. It had been so exiled. And so I'm sitting there, and the. I would describe the feeling as like, a grief, like. Like when I've had animals die or people in my life die. And there's that kind of, like, weepy, like, slow, tearful grief that emerges, that emerged for me, and this reorganization of, oh, I've got to be with this. I've got to explore this numbness and grief. And so I start with a individual somatic psychotherapist. And this is. This is my first session with this person, right? So I go in to their office, and I sit in the chair, and we're a couple minutes into the session. And as one does in somatic psychotherapy, at some point she says, you know, I'm feeling something in my spine, and I wonder if it's mine or yours. Do you want to check that out? So I know what she means, and I. So I just go inside and sense into my spine to see what's happening for me. And as happens in somatic psychotherapy, I'm kind of narrating. She's checking in with me, and I'm tracking the sensation that's happening in my body. And so I'm in my spine. I feel this kind of, like, spiraling and rising, and I'm tracking that, and it's sort of getting more energetic and feeling bigger and rising. And then I feel my heart start racing in a way I never have before. It was just this kind of crazy racing and deep breathing. And I'm really surprised by what's happening. But she seems fine. My eyes are closed, but she's, like, tracking me really closely, and she seems fine. So I'm like, okay, well, let's see where this goes.
- [79:42]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Are you Almost hyperventilating at this point in time, like you. Is your breathing speeding up?
- [79:47]
Cara Giroux
It's my breathing speeding up, but I wouldn't describe it as hyperventilating, but it's intense breathing. Yeah. And my heart is like racing and then, and I'm feeling these, this like, movement throughout my body and this tingling sensation rising and it's, it's getting bigger. I'm kind of shaking. Not kind of, I'm shaking and it's, it's sort of coming up through my chest. And as it gets up through my chest and enters sort of my, my head and crown and area, this wild state of bliss takes over. Like I've never seen or experienced and, and really I never knew anything like this was even possible. Had no concept of it whatsoever. Right. And so I'm just in this. At this point, my eyes are flashing, right? Like it's like flashing light. My entire body is shaking. And this is probably going on for. It's like a five minute kind of arc or something like that, right. And so I come out of that and look at her, the therapist, and say, do you know what just happened? You know, and she says, I think that you just had a kundalini rising. And what is that? You know? And so she explains, oh, there's this shakti, or creative energy. You know, the yogic traditions believed to be coiled at the base of your spine and that, that can rise and sort of clean out your chakras and that sort of thing. I think that's what just happens for you. It's like, okay, and I'm looking around the room and the objects in the room are full of energy. And what I mean is like when you're near a horse or a dog or a being and you can feel the energy on them or their essence, it's like that, like the wood stove behind her, I'm like that the wood stove is so. Feels so good. It's like, so the floors had their own different energy. Like every object had. It was like it was a being that was there.
- [82:27]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You could somatically feel that. Like, did you feel like you were vibrating in? The air you were vibrating against was touching the stove and you could feel the stove, you know. Was it kind of like that?
- [82:39]
Cara Giroux
It was more like. What was it like? It was more like I could sense like, I'm trying to imagine, like a friend who makes you feel really good and is like in the room with you and you feel like you, you look over, you, like, feel their energy and it's just like Ah, that's like really nice. It's like that. Where it's like, oh, I can like see. It's not that. It's not like a clairvoyance, but it's like a. Just a feeling of like the sense of that inanimate object, but that has like an essence to it. So I'm just sort of. Right. Just like, okay, what does this mean? What is this? I'm kind of blown away. We're about to leave on a week's vacation with my family. So I step out of that therapist office and I'm walking down the street and it was like you were describing the baby on, you know, acid or tripping. Right? It was, it was like that. Where it wasn't like seeing things or like that weren't there sort of thing. But it was more. I remember noticing the trees leave and just being like. Like it would like zoom in on that detail where I feel like I could stand there for 10 minutes and stare at that leaf because it was so beautiful and the energy was so alive and that. That sort of thing you ever go.
- [84:05]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Into like say Costco or Best Buy or something or other, and they've got all Those high def TVs there and you walk past and you look at whatever they're playing and it looks more real than real. Was it a bit like that? Because I had an experience in Topanga Canyon in LA a couple years ago. I went and saw a Native American shaman he called himself, but he did this, had me standing outside in the sun and did this some sort of energy healing session thing. But when I. In the end it goes, now open your eyes. When I open my eyes, it was like I was looking at stuff through one of those TVs. Like everything was clearer and sharper and looked more real than real. Like it was like that 4K HD TV sort of thing.
- [84:48]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And like zoom. Right, zoomed in. Right. Of just.
- [84:54]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Yeah.
- [84:54]
Cara Giroux
And like. And very present where there's not other things. And so I leave and we're traveling. We take an airplane and are this cabin in the woods. And I'm trying to make sense of, you know, what's just happened.
- [85:10]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Does it. Does that feeling stay?
- [85:13]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, so the. Well, so the feeling stayed to some degree, but then over the next couple of weeks it happened every day. So it kept really repeat repeating. Yeah.
- [85:26]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Were you doing any practices to bring it on or just would appear?
- [85:30]
Cara Giroux
Well, I wanted. I was really drawn to meditating and. And so I. My youngest daughter at the time was taking these long Afternoon naps. And so I would lay down with her and listen to music, and it was so wild. I was not, you know, I like, meditated at group retreats and things like that. I was not a meditator, but I could meditate and stay with the sensation in my body for hours. Like, for hours, just. And it was. It was like watching a movie. Like. Like the. It just felt so interesting and cool to see and, like, follow the waves of energy and things like that. So, yeah, so. So every day that was happening and so wild, and I was so not myself in. In the way of, like, what I was feeling and seeing that. I was really glad that my husband was witnessing what was happening because it felt so surreal to me and wild things were happening. Like, when we drove in to this place where we were staying, this cabin, we. My youngest daughter was asleep, and on this long road we were driving in, there were a lot of deer in this place. There were, like, I don't know, 30 deer or something kind of wild. And so when we got to the house, we were talking about it. My daughter had woken up, and she was upset that she missed seeing the deer that were there. So later that day, we are walking in the woods, and I said, well, maybe we'll see the deer, you know, and we weren't seeing any. We're walking along and. And she's like, I. You know, whatever. She's upset about it. And so I just say, let's ask them if they'll show themselves to us. And I finish saying that, and we turn and there they are, Right. Like, boom. So things like that were happening as well. And so in retrospect, when I look back at it, I think it was very connected to my realization around the numbness and the lack of feeling. And I connected also to that. That dark night of exiling my connection to spirituality for that protector to come on. And now in. In sort of reclaiming and actually having enough resource to tolerate and be with. The numbness and the pain associated with. Was like. It felt like this candy from the universe of. It was undeniable the other unknown layers of connection and what was happening to me that I was not creating in any way. This was, like, coming through me. And it was undeniable that there is more connection, energy, just so mystery, so much that I don't know. And this really beautiful coming home, I think, to curiosity and spirituality and mystery. Right. That I had exiled for so many years.
- [89:05]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Wow. And so this is. This is during your. Your Semitic psychotherapy training.
- [89:18]
Cara Giroux
Exactly, yeah.
- [89:20]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Do you Talk to other students, you know, other people that you're studying with. Are they having similar experiences?
- [89:27]
Cara Giroux
Well, what was interesting was the person I was closest to in the program within a couple of months of my having had that experience and I talked to her about it, she had the same experience. She had a spontaneous kundalini rising. And so we were like, why is, what's going on here? Is this contagious or what's happening? And so that was, it was really resourcing. Obviously to be able to talk about in our experiences were different and similar in all of it. But it, but what was fundamental is it felt like we were both on the path of reconnecting to our bodies and selves. And then that this spiritual element arose unprompted was pretty wild.
- [90:15]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
It's almost like, it's almost like it's a reconnection to who we are as a species. You know, it's like, yeah, hunter gatherer energy, you know, the, the senses and the human have been able to sense things and detect things. And it's interesting you said you got interested in tracking before because tracking is almost like a, you know, really good trackers. They're more than just reading the signs on the ground, you know, they're, they're very somatically based type things.
- [90:49]
Cara Giroux
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And that and the. I think what stays with me all these years later is the capacity we have to tap into that energy. Like, I don't think it's unique or special in me. Right. It's this universal thing that we've abandoned and I think more than ever so desperately need in our reconnection. And so, yeah, I think the slowing down has been a theme today. And I think that, right. Like that there's so much possibility in the slowing down on every level and that reconnection is part of that possibility.
- [91:38]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
So you get done with your, your masters in somatic psychiatry.
- [91:46]
Cara Giroux
Psychology.
- [91:47]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Sorry. And so then, then where does it go from there?
- [91:52]
Cara Giroux
And so then I want to practice and I want to do equine facilitated work and I want to do couples work. And everyone says you can't do those two things like that. Those don't go together. You've got to pick a niche and you've got to do whatever. And at this it's like, no, I can do with the history I've had and all of that, it's like, no, I can make it work. It's fine. I'm going to do sort of what I'm going to do. And so I start exploring those two areas of work. And all of the trainings in equine facilitated work that were available at the time didn't resonate with the way I wanted to work with horses relationally. And so I started working with a former professor and mentor, Therese Journess, in developing my own way I wanted to work with horses and people. And so as we started to witness what was happening with clients and then particularly as we got into the developmental gesture work with children who had attachment trauma, severe attachment trauma, and saw these like, kind of, you know, hair on the back of your neck standing up moments where they would find repair. She was really encouraging and like, you've got a method here, you've got your own thing, like do something with it. And so she's been so encouraging and, and wonderful and empowering to support taking this further. And so I've kept refining the. The transformational couples work, taking that from couples therapy into a more direct coaching container and then refining the equine work and lecturing and teaching that method. And that's where I am now.
- [93:55]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Wowzers. What a story. I might ask you some of your questions that you chose, and this actually might. This actually might be good because a lot of times I wait to the end to ask the questions, but during the conversation, the questions have already been answered, but I don't think. I don't think any of these have. So this is good. What is your favorite quote?
- [94:15]
Cara Giroux
My favorite quote is a roomy quote, which you might. No. Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, so I am changing myself.
- [94:29]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
That's the. It all starts there, doesn't it? Yeah, but think about, you know, we were talking earlier about your children's book and thinking about, you know, like I said, if. If what? If children were made aware of all this sort of stuff from an early age. It's like I had a. I had a podcast guest named Philip shepherd who wrote a book called. Oh, what's Philip Shepherd's book called? I forget what the book. It's about somatic stuff. But in that book, he talks about a. An East African tribe named the Anglo Eva tribe. And I think we have 12 senses and one of those senses, and I think this is what you experienced. They called Cecil Alami, which translates literally into English as feel. Feel with the flesh from the inside out. It's almost like you're your. Your body's a tuning fork. You're very. You know, and it feels like that's like you. Kundalini Rising thing was almost probably a bit like that, but that, but that's normal in their society. You talk about it. You, yeah, you, you know, it's, it's mentioned. It's not, you know, think about all the, the Catholic shame, upbringing, blah, blah, blah stuff that you had. Think about if all that was replaced with this sort of thing. You know what I mean?
- [95:59]
Cara Giroux
Yeah.
- [96:00]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Who would we be as a species?
- [96:03]
Cara Giroux
Right.
- [96:03]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
If everybody was aware of this stuff.
- [96:09]
Cara Giroux
Yeah. Yeah. Who would we be?
- [96:13]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Love that Rumi quote. Next question. What have you changed in the past five years that has helped shape who you have become?
- [96:23]
Cara Giroux
I have really shifted relationally around false intimacy. And I think for particularly women who are, who have a history that made them self reliant relationally and exile, need and care and those things I have been particularly good at like being in friendship with the sturdy one, the strong one, the one who like brings the soup and shows up for the things and anticipates the need and all of that.
- [97:02]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Don't they call it over functioning?
- [97:04]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, over functioning, exactly. And there's an intimacy in that, Right. Because you're the caregiver, the nurturer that is brought into someone's world. But at the same time there's no vulnerability on your end, right. And so you're safe and there's no vulnerability until there is, you hit the wall again with the protector where there is an actual moment of need. Right. And then the pattern I noticed in myself was I, I would like whisper that need in some way or the request, and when it wouldn't land with the other person who I had wildly showed up for, my protector would be enraged, like, are you kidding me? Or you know, Right. And then I would distance and go through this whole thing. And so I worked on this in therapy and like I was curious about this, could see the pattern there, wanted it to change. And so initially the work looked like, okay, well you're not being vulnerable enough. You're not staying stating your need clearly you're not coming forward in a way where people can't even see there's a needer. Right. So that was the shift initially. And the same sort of pattern was happening not in, and it wasn't in all my relationships. It would be these like few always. And it was still stuck there. And so I had to get really curious about, okay, what. It's not about me presenting my like communicating in the right way or saying what's happening earlier, that's setting up this dynamic. And what I came to is self abandonment. And so it was, it was what you were pointing to the in the over functioning. There was not my own listening around my capacity and needs about how I was showing up. So then I was blaming my resentment on others for my overdoing which they never asked me to do to begin with. Right. And so it's that that has really changed my care. And it's not that, it's not that. Still the inner critic voices show up around like saying no or judging. And I, and I welcome them now because it's inviting them in closer and sort of celebrating like okay, but this means we're not self abandoning now. If I'm hearing this voice, I'm actually taking care of me.
- [99:47]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Wow. Next question is what advice would you give for someone about to enter your occupation?
- [99:59]
Cara Giroux
The advice I would share share is to train in a way or learn in a way that pushes your own edges of growth. So, so what is it that that where you most need the, the support or growth and how do you learn from someone who shifts that? Because I really believe that we don't have to have the same experiences to have helped others to help others. But it's in the. If you can transform the trickiest edges for yourself, then you have access to knowing how change and healing happens and you get to support people in that wildly.
- [100:46]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
So on the same vein, what's a common myth in your profession or common myth about your profession?
- [100:56]
Cara Giroux
I think there are two that are connected and one is that regulation is like a calm zen kind of state that it looks like versus having a large window of tolerance where you can be with all kinds of emotions and stay connected in relationship and connected to that is in the couple's work. Just about every couple I've ever worked with will list as their top three things they would like to change or improve is communication. And communication is a wonderful skill that we all need so much work and support in. And the communication can only come after there's regulation work and self responsibility work there. And so it's like, it's like coming in and saying I want to learn a flying lead change but you can't trot a circle.
- [102:03]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You know, I've met that person. Have you had much to do with read much about Marshall Rosenberg's nonviolent communication?
- [102:16]
Cara Giroux
I have. Yeah.
- [102:17]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
I think that is fascinating as like I, I think you know, if I could, if I could embody that meaning, meaning I could communicate that way without having to think about it like oh hang on. Yeah, they said this, you know, just to where that was how I communicated with the world. My world would be completely Different. My relationship with my wife would be different. My son, everybody I come in contact with would, would be different. So I'm a, I'm aware of it. I'm just not fluent at it. But I, Yeah, but it's what that, reading that book, a lot of it made me realize, oh, that's what I'm doing with the horses actually. You know what I mean? It's, it's meeting needs. It's, it's not, you know, it, it gets rid of the conflict and it's just about, about meeting needs. Yes, it's fascinating.
- [103:10]
Cara Giroux
Super fascinating.
- [103:13]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Next question would be what does it mean to you to be a leader and a follower and what constitutes a good leader and a good follower?
- [103:21]
Cara Giroux
To me those are, excuse me, those are nervous system states. And what I mean by that is I think that leader and follower can be interchangeable and a good leader is someone who has a large window of tolerance so they can be regulated in a lot of states and they know how to read others states and meet them and co regulate. And so when I think of conflict, there are two mismatched nervous systems at play where one can't tolerate the other. And I think a good leader knows how to work with a dysregulated nervous system or state and help it to co regulate. And a good follower can take the lead from a regulated nervous system.
- [104:21]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You just mentioned something about. Oh, I know what, yeah, I know what it was. You just said something about a good leader being able to recognize nervous system states. Don't you feel that as a child if you, if your sense of safety is very reliant on the nervous system state of someone else, don't you feel like you become very aware of, aware of nervous system states? You know like you, you, you're looking for that sideways glance or that tightened jaw muscle or whatever and you get very good at recognizing that sort of stuff which later on can possibly become a superpower or.
- [105:13]
Cara Giroux
Yes.
- [105:14]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
What was the term you used for that?
- [105:18]
Cara Giroux
I'm not sure of, of the term but I, I agree with that. It's, I think it's two sided. I'm curious your perspective on this. Where yes, it's a super power but there's a hyper vigilance in, but this.
- [105:34]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Comes back to the, to the, your protector. You know what, why were you so good at what you were doing? Because you were kind of over functioning and you know I'm going to rule the world. But don't you feel like the, the almost the attunement to others like being Aware of those little things of others comes from a not safe place in the first place. And so you've got to.
- [105:58]
Cara Giroux
Exactly.
- [105:58]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You kind of got to get to where you still have that skill. It's kind of like my explaining skill.
- [106:03]
Warwick Schiller (Intro/Outro)
You got to get.
- [106:04]
Cara Giroux
Right. Exactly.
- [106:05]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Or here's a good one. I had a trauma therapist on the podcast one time and I was talking about, I asked her the same thing, I asked you, did you have some issues, get some help and then get into being a trauma therapist because of experiences you had? And she said yes. But she said a mentor of mine in college said the reason you get into it can't be the reason you stay in it. And it was like, oh yeah. So you know, the superpowers you develop from all the, the bad stuff, you can keep the superpower, but you have to work through that other stuff. Otherwise it's kind of like the CEO who's rich and miserable because he hasn't healed the wound.
- [106:56]
Cara Giroux
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I feel like with the going back to the hyper vigilance, I think the other side of the coin there is that you're generally then your neuroception. So your sense of threat is also heightened because of that history of having to be hypervigilant. Which means we're going to be attuning to, or at least my experience meant I was attuning to. Yes, what's happening in the room and reading the nervous systems. But then a look or a tightness or whatever is going to feel more threatening than neutral sort of thing. And so it's always going to feel negatively skewed. So then the work, I think to incorporate the super skill and make it its most powerful is to work on amplifying sweetness and neutral cues so that we're not dominated by a sense of threat when there's subtle cues that are negative.
- [107:59]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Amazing stuff. And the last question you have is, do you have a favorite horse?
- [108:03]
Cara Giroux
I do have a favorite horse and I feel like I need to say that any horse I've worked with could have been my favorite horse in different moments. But my current favorite horse is a liver chestnut Morgan mare named April and she's a therapy partner and a trailer partner and the one of the most self possessed beings I've ever had the privilege of being around. And it's so, it's so humbling to be slow enough and have to surrender to be in her presence of her good ideas, to be with her ideas of all she's actually willing to show me. And in being with those Ideas and that time together. It's been amazing to see how, for example, our trail riding has shifted where I can feel in a way I never have before, the nuance of our conversation in a moment of her uncertainty, or should we go this way or that way or where she's giving me these really subtle, nuanced relational check ins before reacting. And there's something so mystical in that energetic and embodied dialogue together that I feel like will continue to get richer. And so it's pure embodied joy in being with her and feels like just medicine all of the time. So I'm so grateful.
- [109:46]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
She sounds wonderful. I know you didn't pick this question, but I want to ask it anyway. Do you have a book that you recommend a lot? Like not your favorite book to read, but a book that you say to other people, you really should read this book.
- [110:04]
Cara Giroux
It feels like it depends on what they're working on because they tend toward the somatic books. But the ones I recommend most frequently. Terry Real's work was largely based on his work with Pia Melody and P I A M E L L O D Y. And her books, I feel like are direct in a way that most psychology books are not and really helpful to people. And then for those who lean toward the self reliant self, this, a book called Compelled to Control by J. Keith Miller I think is also similarly to Pia Melody's books, very direct and helpful.
- [110:54]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
I haven't actually read Pia Melody's books, but I've got a fierce intimacy by Terry Real that I, yeah, I kind of cycle through it every once in a while and re listen to it and hopefully it'll stick. You know, there's that one and the nonviolent communication. I just kind of, you know, if I'm outside on the tractor or whatever, I'll just put on the earphones and put them on and like keep doing what I'm doing. But hopefully I'll absorb that stuff, you know, subconsciously. But I listen to it.
- [111:21]
Cara Giroux
Absolutely. That's beautiful. And I love that you're in movement and motion like while you're absorbing it. I think there's something powerful to that.
- [111:31]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Yeah, both of those. And Terry Real stuff too. It's like, oh yeah, this is what I'm doing with the horses too.
- [111:38]
Cara Giroux
Yes.
- [111:39]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
You know, there's parts of that I'm like, oh yeah, that, that cross pollinates sort of thing.
- [111:46]
Cara Giroux
Very cool. Yeah.
- [111:47]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Okay, so how can people find out more about you?
- [111:52]
Cara Giroux
So people can find me@equinesomaticpathways.com they can find me on Facebook at Cara C A R A Girou G E R E A and Instagram Equine Somatic Pathways.
- [112:11]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
And where can they find your book on Amazon at?
- [112:17]
Cara Giroux
You can look up I Love youe Heart and all your feeling parts. Oh, and the couples intensives are found@somaticlifecoach.com.
- [112:28]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Wow, you've got lots of handles there.
- [112:30]
Cara Giroux
I do.
- [112:31]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me. It's been fascinating hearing your story. I knew it was going to be a good one and it was. Was.
- [112:37]
Cara Giroux
Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.
- [112:40]
Warwick Schiller (Host)
Yeah. So thank you for sharing all that and really interesting learning the things that led you to, to where you're at and for you guys at home, thanks so much for joining us and we'll catch you on the next episode of the Journey on Podcast.
- [112:56]
Warwick Schiller (Intro/Outro)
Thanks for being a part of the Journey on Podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warwick has over 850 full length training videos on his online video library@videos.warickschiller.com Be sure to follow Warrick on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram to see his latest training advice and insights.