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- [00:07]
Robin Schiller
Journey on Magic lies within the trails we ride.
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Warwick Schiller
You're listening to the Journey on podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warrick is a horseman trainer, international clinician, and author who helps empower horse people from all over the world with the skills, knowledge and mindsets needed to create trusting partnerships with their horses. Warrick offers a free seven day trial to his comprehensive online video library that includes hundreds of full length training videos and several home study courses at videos warwickshiller.com just because you see what is sure.
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Robin Schiller
Welcome back to the Journey on podcast. This is your host, Robin Schiller. I have hijacked the microphone from Warwick while he's away and you know, I've been seeing so much about menopause in my feeds lately. I think just the algorithm has me targeted. And I started thinking about the demographics of who is listening to the podcast, who is tuning into the video library, and I thought, well, you guys who are doing that are mostly women, and if you're not, maybe you're a man who loves a woman. So, you know, this topic I thought we could talk about was generally menopause, including perimenopause and post menopause. And So I asked Dr. Heidi Hook to come back on the podcast with this topic. And if you haven't listened to our first podcast, it was episode 156, and it was, if I say so myself, a very, very worthwhile episode to listen to. And so if you are a woman or a man who has a partner or a mother or a sister or a friend who is a woman, this is a good podcast to listen to because it will give you a lot of information about what's going on and what we have to do to figure it out. And as Heidi and I were talking right in the middle, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is just like horse training. I've come to you with all these symptoms for you to figure out. And, and it's not like that. It's like you have to, you have to start at the beginning and you have to work through the process. So, spoiler alert. It's a lot like horse training. And we had a really great conversation and I did address all of the symptoms and all of that, but she also talks a lot about mechanism and what's going on in our bodies and how to get to the bottom of it. And it was super helpful. Even though I've been working with her for a long time, it was a really helpful conversation. I thought maybe I would start by giving you a little bit of my Journey through menopause. And. And it was so interesting because she kind of, she. She said, yeah, and when you start perimenopause, you might have, you know, more stronger, heavier periods. And this is why. And I'm like, oh, my God, that happened to me. And so she explained why that happened. So it was awesome. But so for me, I was about 43 when I started having symptoms, and the main symptom, I would say, was anxiety. I was having panic attacks at work and I was having to go home. I was in the ER thinking that I was having a heart attack. I had all the heart. You know, I had all that stress test. I had all the heart, the EKGs, all of that stuff, you know, just to prove that my heart was okay. It wasn't my heart. And so, you know, the doctor I was seeing at that time, he just. Just like, well, here's an anti anxiety pill. You just have anxiety, so here's a pill. And I just, I wasn't happy with that. And then two people in my life shout out to Ann Marie, thank you, because we were working together at the time. And she sat with me in the bathroom through a few of those panic attacks. And then another, who was working at Gilroy Gates at the time, Martha Springer. Thank you. Who actually, they both said, have you had your hormones checked? And of course I hadn't. Or if I had, they were not well done. I don't know. I had not. So I had not had any hormones checked at this point in time. I was 43. So Dr. Or Martha referred me to Dr. Renee Young at Young Naturopathic. She's in Los Gatos. Super fun, fabulous. Started working with her in 2012. So we're talking, you know, 13 years ago. Yes, I'm 55, almost 56 now. But that was the first time that anybody had checked, like, hormones, food sensitivities, nutrients, heart, just. She did, you know, like a naturopath would they take in the whole person. And so, you know, I had all. I had all my genetics done. So of course, found out I had all the bad genetics for Alzheimer's and heart disease and all that. Of course, I knew that from my family, but it was confirmed through these testing, you know, that naturopaths do, because they treat the whole person. They don't just treat a symptom. So they look at your whole being. And so Dr. Renee was awesome. She got me through. You know, she got me through. When I was 50 is when I, you know, you have that. You call it a year without having A cycle, and then you're considered postmenopausal. And for a couple of years before that, my numbers were showing postmenopausal, But I still had a cycle. It was wacky, but I still had one. And then just when you think you're almost out of year and then you have another cycle, and I'm like, okay. But Finally I was 50 or 51 when I finally hit that year. And so, you know, she kept. She kept me going, and then I moved, you know, And I know I could have kept going on online, but then I was introduced to Dr. Heidi Hook. And when I first talked to Heidi, she came to our 2023 podcast summit. And after the summit, she said, I'm. I've put together this course, and I'd really love to share it, and would you be a part of it? And so I went and I met with her on Zoom, and she immediately convinced me that I needed to do this course because what she was saying made so much sense. And what she was saying, which is the whole first podcast, is that we are all toxic. We live in a toxic environment. Most of us have parasites and worms, and, you know, we're horse people. We're out. We're out in the dirt. We're out with our horses. Most of us have dogs. You know, probably you have that kind of. Of thing going on in your gut. And so I started my journey with Dr. Heidi last year, and it's been. It's been an incredible ride. And what I love about her is that she explains things so well, and she goes deeper. She's done a few. And I talk about this in the podcast, though. She's done a few tests that. So I work. I worked with Dr. Renee, and then the. The naturopath in town in Paso Robles is actually. She actually does. She does my yearly, like, gynecological exam. So that's great. Um, and so I have. I have had those resources, but until Heidi. Heidi went farther. She just looked farther. She looked at more. She looked at. And she'll explain this with the thyroid. Like, I've been on thyroid medicine now for about eight years, maybe not that long. I guess it's only been about six years. But Heidi looked at things even deeper into the thyroid, and she looked at things even deeper into my hormones. Hormones. And that's what I love about her, is that she. She really, really explains and searches and. Yeah, she just goes really deep. And I really appreciate that with her. And the other thing I really appreciate is that it's not just the physical, she's really into the mental and emotional and spiritual aspect, and she's a horse person. So that also is a huge benefit, I think, for us. And, you know, it gives us other commonalities. But I hope that you, whether you're a woman or a man who has, like I said, a sister or a partner or a daughter or, you know, listen to this because it will give you some insight into what's happening during this, you know, portion of our life. And I do love. There's some really great nuggets in here that I'll take with me and I hope that you take with you as well. And so, without further ado, here is my conversation with Dr. Heidi Hook. All right, well, thank you, Heidi, for coming back onto the journey on podcast. For those of you who didn't listen to the first podcast that we did, it is episode 156, and it was in May of 2024. And if I do so myself, it was a very, very informative, good podcast. So I think everybody should go listen to that, too. And we decided only yesterday that we were going to do this podcast on menopause. And I posted something on my personal Facebook, Facebook wall and asking, just saying, you know, okay, friends, got any questions for Dr. Heidi? And what you said there were 72 by this morning.
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Dr. Heidi Hook
Last. Last I looked. Yeah. Yeah.
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Robin Schiller
So I guess we hit on a. On a topic that needs to be talked about because we got tons of questions. So. But before I get to their questions, I want to make sure I get mine answered. No. And they're pretty much, you know, in line with what they asked. But maybe you could start by explaining, like, the mechanism going on, like, what is menopause and perimenopause and post menopause maybe define them for us.
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Dr. Heidi Hook
Right. I will start with a bird's eye view and then kind of jump in. But first, Robin, I just want to say I am so grateful and appreciative of being invited back. This is a huge topic, and it's life changing when you have your hormones balanced or not. And there's so many things that are so intricate. I think a lot of us think of hormones as very simplistic. And again, we are divine beings, and everything is interconnected and interdependent on everything. And so I've been a naturopath for, like, 30 years. And so this is my love because I am a woman and I am in my 60s, and so I've gone through this, and so I have firsthand experience with all of it. And so it is, it's a huge thing. So just, I'm so grateful and appreciative of being invited back and I think you're an amazing voice to collect everybody to have, have this information out. So thank you so much.
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Robin Schiller
My pleasure.
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Dr. Heidi Hook
So what we're talking about is perimenopause and menopause. And even there was a question about, you know, people that have had, they're having periods, but they're having PMS or having pmdd. And in my world, anytime you have symptoms around your menses, that means there's an imbalance you should not have. Anxiety, depression, cramping, heavy periods. When you are having periods, and that tells me there's an imbalance whether you're not breaking your estrogen down quick enough or you're not able to make enough progesterone. And usually I would say 90% of the time it's estrogen dominant, too much estrogen. And that is what's going to make the cramping, the periods, the depression, the all of the symptoms around pms. We should be able to just, you know, wake up and feel a little pink. Pink. And we have a period and sometimes we might feel more intuitive around those times, around, around pms. So we're more sensitive, more intuitive. But that's kind of the, the gist of it. And in a, in a perfect world, so if you're having periods and you're having issues, then that needs to be looked at because if you're having issues in pre menopause, we have, there's like, basically there's having periods, there's pre menopause and there's menopause. So menopause is officially, you've gone a whole year without having a period. Perimenopause can last a decade probably. It can start in your 40s and it can be a roller coaster ride. And it's, it's really the time when your ovaries may not be producing enough estrogen or progesterone and so your periods are all off. It can actually get heavier because usually when you get through, go into perimenopause, it's the progesterone that drops first. And so what we see is that people get heavier periods.
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Robin Schiller
That happened to me. Yeah. What happened to me?
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Dr. Heidi Hook
Right. They get heavier and heavier and heavier. And what a lot of us, the MDs will do, they'll put people on birth control or they'll say, let's just take your uterus out. And what really is happening is the progesterone is driving is diving. And so the estrogen is unopposed. And so you get this thick endometrial lining and you're having these heavy periods and women are just going crazy. You can also have fibroids. Those are all estrogen dominant. And those push even heavier periods and cramping. And so it's kind of a mess. And there is everything you can do for all of it, for having PMS or having irregular menses when you're young, having perimenopausal symptoms and having menopause. Having the symptoms of menopause.
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Robin Schiller
So let me ask you. You. Sorry to interrupt, but okay, so you mentioned if you're having periods and. And they're a lot heavier than they really should be.
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Dr. Heidi Hook
Correct.
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Robin Schiller
It's usually estrogen dominance.
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Dr. Heidi Hook
Estrogen dominant.
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Robin Schiller
And the same with. Yeah, so this. And the same with perimenopause when it gets better. So you said that. Well, what. What testing would they do and is that. I know we're going to probably get to that, but just to put it like a bookend on, because I think most of it we're going to be talking about is past that period of time. But what kind of testing would they do?
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Dr. Heidi Hook
Yeah. So in my office we use. It's called the Dutch and it's this dried urine system. And it is an amazing test because it's not just looking at estrogen, progesterone or fsh, but it's looking at your testosterone. It's looking at your cortisol because that's from your adrenal glands. It's looking at your three estrogens and progesterone and how well you're breaking them down. So it's not just about estradiol, it's about all of the hormones and what your body is doing with it. It's interesting. I can see two people with exactly the same symptoms and they have. They're breaking their estrogens down differently and so the treatment is different or they're, you know. And so this test. It's an easy test.
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Robin Schiller
Yeah, I've done it. It's easy.
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Dr. Heidi Hook
Get it on our website. And it looks at the whole picture because we're not just estrogen and progesterone and testosterone. It's so much more than that. And we're going to get into all that. But there is that test that just I've been using for a decade and it just. It's an amazing test.
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Robin Schiller
Yeah, I think I've done it more than once. I think I've done it two or three times with You. So, yeah, it's pretty easy. You just pee on some stuff.
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Dr. Heidi Hook
And if you're doing, if you're having periods, you'll do it on day 19, 20 or 21. So I know exactly what's happening in that second half of the cycle. And then postmenopausal, if you're not having periods and you just do it anytime. And it really gives me a deeper understanding. And if you're a candidate for hormones. And so a lot of people are like, oh, you know, I have estrogen linked cancers in my family, but I'm having all of these side effects, these hot flashes and I'm going crazy. And so we can see if that person is a candidate for estrogen and if we do give them estrogen, then how well they're doing on it. And we can, I, I have to have that good gut pleasing feeling when I'm suggesting that someone take an estrogen.
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Robin Schiller
Yep. So I'm sure we'll get into. Yeah, we'll get into more. I just wanted to. Yeah. Kind of bookend that part.
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Dr. Heidi Hook
Yeah.
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Robin Schiller
Okay. So, so the, the, you were mentioning the ovaries stop doing their thing.
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Dr. Heidi Hook
Yeah, yeah. So what happens is a lot of people think that when, you know, menopause or perimenopause, you're going to have zero hormones, and that's not true. So when you go into menopause, the ovaries stop producing first progesterone. And so then you get this estrogen dominant, you get this myriad of symptoms and then eventually the ovaries stop completely and the estrogen drops. Now what happens in a perfect world is that our body would be healthy and our adrenal glands would be healthy and our adrenal glands would take over. The adrenal glands make the dhea, which is the precursor. It can make the testosterone, the estrogen, the progesterone. And so our adrenal glands can make a perfect postmenopausal level of hormones. And so obviously when we're having periods, our hormones are higher. Right. We have estrogen and progesterone and those are on the upper end of the ranges. And then they vary between the time of the month that it is. And then we have testosterone. And when we get into menopause, both of the estrogen and progesterone drop down to a, and they don't go to zero, they go to a post menopausal level. And it's a steady state level. There's not the rhythm of estrogen coming up and then progesterone coming up and estrogen falling. And so it's a steady state of hormones, of estrogen, progesterone, and the testosterone can stay just about the same, the DHEA can stay the same. And so that's the fallacy. So, and there's everything that affects those hormones, and that's the big thing. It's not just this simplistic thing of, oh, I'm going to take an estrogen, an estradiol and a progesterone, and some people in my world will give them that, and they still don't get better. And so it's everything else, because there's this triad that I talk about. The hormones, thyroid and adrenal glands, and those are interdependent, and they're connected, and they're interdependent on each other. So if you have a deficiency of cortisol or adrenal fatigue, or you have low thyroid, and we're going to talk about that because that's a huge thing, or if your hormones are low, then those affect each other, and then those affect the neurotransmitters, and the neurotransmitters affect the hormones. The neurotransmitters affect the gut. The neurotransmitters affect everything in your body, and that's serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine. So that's where we get our zest for life and the feeling of wellness with the serotonin. So, and then all of those affect the hypothalamus and the hypothalamus, and then basically, because that's part of our brain and the hypothalamus is what regulates everything. And so there's this huge long list of everything that affects the hypothalamus. And this is where I think it gets really, really interesting. And this is where we can kind of do a deep dive. And I'm going to do a deeper dive about the hormones and the adrenal glands and the thyroid. But just to give you an overview of everything that affects the hypothalamus is insulin and blood sugar. So if your blood sugar is high and your insulin is high, then that's going to negatively affect your hormones. And again, you know me from the other podcast is that if you're toxic and you can't get your blood sugar, you can't get the sugar into your cells because you have all those toxins around your cells, the cell membrane isn't working very well, then you're not able to utilize your glucose quickly inside the cells. For energy. And your blood sugar goes up, your insulin goes up. And then basically a lot of times what we see is that glucose goes to triglycerides and then to LDL cholesterol.
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Robin Schiller
So your cholesterol's up too.
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Dr. Heidi Hook
So your cholesterol's up too. Right?
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Robin Schiller
You're just explaining me this whole thing. It's like, I'm textbook.
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Dr. Heidi Hook
And then there's leptin and ghrelin. And we're going to get into that because that's all about food and satiety and fat. And it has. It regulates your temperature and your, Your temperature environment. If you have a fever, you have an infection, that affects it. Your sleep affects the hypothalamus, blue light affects the thalamus. So anytime you're in front of a computer or a TV or a phone, that will affect your hypothalamus, which can have an effect on your hormones, nutritional deficiencies. And there's a test to look for those that we have on our website. Being dehydrated, having too many processes, food processed over processed foods, and exercising too much. So over exercising, having obesity and antidepressants and alcohol, marijuana and cocaine, all of those things can then really affect the hypothalamus. And there's some big ones in there that I really want to jump into because they're huge. And it gets really, really interesting when we start piecing all this out.
- [24:18]
Robin Schiller
One of the things that I had on my list was alcohol, because I noticed that I am. As I've gotten older, I've never been a huge drinker. And, well, when I lived in Australia, I was a huge drinker. But I've noticed as I've gotten older, my tolerance is just. And now my. As, you know, the. Recently, I. I mean, I just. I can't. I can't, I can't. I can't drink. I feel so bad after. And now I feel bad right after. And so what's that about?
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Dr. Heidi Hook
So alcohol is one. It's hard on the liver, right? It has to get processed in the liver. And what we see is that the. I mean, we're toxic. We live in a toxic world. And I think in the last five to 10 years, I've seen the level of toxicity rise. And we're at this crescendo where people are really toxic, which means that the nutrients are depleted in the cells. And so the liver isn't functioning optimally. It's not breaking down your hormones, it can't break down the alcohol. And people have a harder and harder time with alcohol. And then that alcohol stimulus is hard on the hypothalamus. And so your body can't regulate things. So it's just. It's like a backpack, right? We're walking around with these heavy backpacks, and every time we drink alcohol, it's heavier in our backpack, and it just puts more stress on our system. And so it can definitely disrupt your hormones and it's stressful. And so your adrenal glands are like, okay, great, thanks. Now I can't make the hormones as well. So I think for women, the dose is like. I think it was like three to six drinks a week. But I even think that's excessive. I think that, you know, when we get to this place where we start feeling really optimal, that we can feel that the. The toxins start to feel. We get more. Almost more sensitive to it. And it's not that we're more sensitive, it's just that we feel the difference. When we go, I feel amazing. And then we put this toxin in our body, we're like, I really feel the difference now.
- [26:39]
Robin Schiller
Makes a lot of sense because I've been feeling that since, you know, we've been doing the cleanse and stuff for. I've been doing it for over a year now, off and on. And I think, like you said, as you get. As you get cleaner, your body's like, don't put that shit in me. And yeah, I've. That. Is. That rings really true for me.
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Dr. Heidi Hook
Yeah. I think that our body starts to really have a voice where it didn't before because it was so overloaded and so stomped down. And now it starts to have a voice, and it's about listening to your body. A lot of people will go, well, can I, Can I, Can I do that? And I'm like, your body will tell you eventually. Your body will tell you if you can or can't. So going back up and really understanding the hormones is, I think, the next place I'd like to go to, if that's okay.
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Robin Schiller
Yeah. And will you explain? I'm sure you will. The different types of estrogen, like the estradiol extra. Yeah. Okay, cool.
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Dr. Heidi Hook
So there's the hormones, though. So we see estrogens and estrogens in a bioidentical is estradiol and estrone and estriol. Now, those are the three main estrogens. Now, estradiol and estrone, we call them E2 and E1. Those are more inflammatory. They're more potent. Estrone is the most inflammatory estrogen. And so when we do The Dutch we really want to make sure that you're breaking that estrone down because it's that estrone that can cause the DNA damage that can be linked to estrogen linked cancers. And so there's three pathways to break estrone down. You need methylation, you need glutathione, and other things can affect the way you break that down. Estradiol is probably the main hormone that we really are aware of that mostly gets prescribed. And there's some really great things with estrogen, right? It helps our skin, it helps our brain. There's so many great things that estrogen can do. And the estrone and estrogen get broken down to estriol. And estriol is actually an anti cancer estrogen, an anti inflammatory estrogen, and it builds collagen. So estriol is like the queen of postmenopause, I think. And a lot of the creams out there, the topical creams that you can buy over the counter, they're mostly estriol. There'll be a little bit of estradiol in there and then they'll be balanced with progesterone. So especially estriol is, you know, it's anti inflammatory. So we can put it vaginally. I have people putting it on their faces because when you low, when you, when your estrogen goes low, then your, your body isn't able to make the collagen and the elastin. So everything starts to thin out and you get vaginal dryness and sex can feel like razor blades and it's not fun. And so adding estriol vaginally can be a life changing event. And I even have on my website a little. It's not a podcast, but some information. And I call it the Vibrant Vagina because I think that we can have really vibrant vaginas in menopause. And there's no reason to have vaginal atrophy in menopause. It's very common. But vaginal atrophy can happen from imbalanced flora. And so there's actually a test to look at the flora in your vaginal area and it can be due to low estrogen. And sometimes women can be doing estrogen systemically and it's still not enough to get the vaginal tissue back up and being optimal. So you actually have to put that estriol cream locally in that vaginal tissue. And so that's really important.
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Robin Schiller
And that's really important because if that is dry and whatever, UTIs are a problem then.
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Dr. Heidi Hook
Right, exactly. As you get older. Because in that dry vagina, the bacteria changes and you can get then pathogenic bacteria that live and thrive and then that seeds the urethra. And as you get older, you get these urinary tract infections that are recurring. And instead of just taking antibiotics which destroy the gut flora every time you take it, you take an antibiotic one time, it takes six months to heal your gut from it. And so we do. Keeping that vaginal tissue really healthy is really important long term. So yes, you're absolutely right. And then there's progesterone. So DHEA is at the top, and dhea, your body will take that and make progesterone, and then progesterone gets broken down and there's two pathways. I don't know how technical we want to get, but there's an inflammatory pathway and a non inflammatory. There's a 5 alpha and 5 beta. And we want the 5 beta. And that's what this Dutch looks tells me. Because there's some people that say, I don't like taking progesterone and most of the time it'll show up that they're breaking it down in the wrong pathway. And there's definitely some things that we can do to support progesterone being broken down correctly. So all those people that are like, yeah, I don't like progesterone, you're probably breaking it down through the wrong pathway. And then the DHEA can go down to make testosterone, and then testosterone goes to make estradiol, and estradiol then can go over to make estrone, and the DHEA can also come down and make estrone, and then those all get broken down to estriol in one pathway. So they're all interconnected. So I can give somebody DHEA and that could actually potentially make testosterone and your estrogens and progesterone. So it just depends on what people's pathways are doing. And testosterone can go to make estrogen. So if somebody is not a good candidate to do estrogens, then I'm a little bit leery of doing any kind of dhea, testosterone or estrogen. Now, this is one of the things that I'm really big on. We have had estrogen and progesterone our entire life. And so there's a lot of doctors. Well, if you don't have a uterus, you don't need progesterone. And I don't believe it. I think that we've. Progesterone balances estrogen out. And so when I do the Dutch, I'm always looking at do you have balanced estrogen and progesterone? And I want a little bit more progesterone than any of the estrogens and that's really a big deal. And what's also really important is that when we're stressed our body needs cortisol and so uses up cortisol and it needs cortisol more than it needs progesterone. And so we call it the progesterone steel. And so when people are stressed they'll pull their progesterone to make cortisol and so then you can be estrogen dominant. So that's how stress can play a huge role in pms. Any menopausal symptom and so really supporting. And so I always usually like it's pretty safe to give progesterone. It's anti inflammatory. It actually helps you feel calmer. It's more of like a GABA like it. It also helps you break down your estrogens. So progesterone is this amazing progesterone hormone. It also I've. I had this one woman who had a, was a diagnosed by her MD a precancerous lesion on her breast and I did her Dutch and her, her progesterone was non existent and so I said we need progesterone. And her doctor said no hormones. And I'm like you need progesterone. And so she listened to me, she did progesterone and it was forgot the time frame but she went back to her doctor. The lesion had completely disappeared and the doctor was like I must have misdiagnosed it because it's gone. And I'm like no, he didn't misdiagnose it. We just balanced your hormones out and your body wants to heal. Absolutely it wants to heal. And so it will do everything it can do by having symptoms to try to get your attention to say hey, I'm not happy.
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Robin Schiller
Is the pregnenolone, is that the precursor to progesterone? What is pregnenolone?
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Dr. Heidi Hook
Pregnenolone is like at the very, at the. Yeah. The pregnenolone comes from DHEA and the dha. The pregnenolone can go over to. It can go down to make cortisol and progesterone because I was on that.
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Robin Schiller
And I because my numbers were really low and then they were sky high. So I've yeah stopped that. I do, I've taken DHEA from the beginning. That's been one. That was one of the first things Dr. Renee put me on yeah. And so the seven keto DHEA, that's. I've been on that forever.
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Dr. Heidi Hook
So yeah, that's a great DHEA is great. It's kind of that. It supports adrenals, it supports thy, it supports progesterone, it supports estrogen, it kind of does, does all of that, which.
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Robin Schiller
Is, and the suppository that I have is the, it has that in it too.
- [37:15]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Oh, right, right, right. The ovals. Yeah, that estriol and the dhea, because that can be a pro, a precursor to the estrogen and testosterone which sometimes is really nice. So the, and then testosterone. So we talked about estrogen, we talked about progesterone, we talked about all of those. Now the adrenal glands make cortisol and cortisol can go to cortisone and if we're stressed it's going to go more to cortisol and have more of a stress like effect as opposed to cortisone which is more anti inflammatory. And if your adrenals are tired and we live in this world where we go stress, stress, stress. If we have, which is one thing I think is really interesting, if we have a stressful thought, if we have stress in our life one time, it changes the flora in our gut. It lowers our Bifidobacter, which lowers our immune system and has a huge effect on our adrenal glands. And so our cortisol can be high and we will gain weight if it's high and eventually if the stress doesn't leave, then the cortisol can go low and we then still have a hard time losing weight when our cortisol is low. It's unfortunate that it always has to be balanced. That's all about balance. And then when the adrenals are tired, they'll pull progesterone to make cortisol and then you have low progesterone, which causes more stress, which you can get stuck in this vicious cycle just with that little circle. And then the other is the thyroid. Now the thyroid is that gland that sits in your throat and in the front of your throat and it makes 90, 80, 90% T4. And that T4 isn't really very bioactive and it has to get converted to T3 and T3 is very bioactive. And thyroid is your metabolism. It tells how fast everything should function in your body. And it's run, it's balanced by the tsh. So the TSH is a thyroid stimulating hormone that comes from your pituitary to tell your thyroid how much thyroid hormone to Make. Now, I am a stickler on thyroid. TSH isn't that important to me. So a lot of MDs that just look at TSH, they're missing the boat because there's so many things that can dysregulate your tsh. If you have stress, the TSH can be low and it can be high. So I don't. I look at tsh, obviously, but it's not. I have to look at the whole picture. And so T4, I want it. I think the reference range, I want a very. I think it's 0.7 to like 4. I want it between 1. For the T4, I want it between 1 and 1.2. I have a very narrow reference range. And when I'm testing, I'm always looking at free T4, not total or anything, because that doesn't tell me anything I want to know because it's the free T4 and the free T3 that give us activity. So it gives me a really good idea of what's happening. Now. This is really, really important. So you have to convert your T4, which isn't very bioactive, to T3, free T3. And that conversion happens in the liver. And you need vitamin A, you need methylation, you need vitamins and minerals, and you need the right amount of cortisol to make that conversion. So if your liver is overworked and underpaid because of toxins and parasites and blah, blah, blah and nutrient deficiencies, then what we see is we're not going to make that conversion. And your body doesn't like to run around with a high T4. So what it does is it converts it to reverse T3. And reverse T3 is not very bioactive. It's not bioactive at all. And what it does is it's kind of like an escape route for T4. And what it does, though, is it hinders. It covers up the receptor sites of the circulating T3 that you have. So then the T3 that you have doesn't make an effect, which then makes you low thyroid. So you can look like your T4 is good or your T3 looks good, but if your reverse T3 is high and high for me is over 12. So if it's over 12, then you're going to be fillow thyroid. And most doctors, if you feel low thyroid, people go, I want more T4. And I would say 90% of the thyroid hormones that are prescribed are Synthroid and levothyroxine. Right? It's just T4 only. And for some people that Works really well. But for others that are not converting, they feel crazy because they have all the thyroid symptoms and their doctor says you're fine. Now, the reason why thyroid is so important is because if you're low thyroid and even just a little bit of low thyroid, you're not able to make your hormones, you're not able to detox estrogen, and you're not able to make your progesterone, and you're going to feel tired and you're going to have weight gain and you're going to have depression and feel cold and constipated and dry skin, and you feel like you're going crazy. And so it's, it's really looking at balancing that. And so I will park people on a lower dose of T4 and give them T3 and let them get rid of all that reverse T3, then find the dose that's right for them. And the T3, the free T3, I want to see that between 3 and 4. I mean, it has to be between 3 and 4 for optimal metabolism. And so, but what I've seen is that, you know, there's a wisdom of the body. So when the body is, has a lot of inflammation or infection or nutrient deficiencies, the metabolism then is creating inflammation. And so the wisdom of the body is says, let's lower the metabolism, let's lower thyroid so we can dampen that down. So if we just come in and start giving T3, people then tend to get side effects. They can get heart palpitations, they can get jittery, they don't feel good on T3. And I'm like, okay, well, we need to do some more adrenal support. We need to do some more detoxing. We need to do, you know, get this up and then slowly start to add the T3 in. So it's definitely this, you know, dance that we do with the T3 and how people feel. But I have seen a lot of people reverse their thyroid where they don't need as much or they can actually get off completely. And we are getting people off, you know, healing any autoimmune, the, you know, the Hashimoto's, where your body is making antibodies to your thyroid, because that really comes from a gut issue and an upregulated immune system. So thyroid absolutely regulates your detoxification and it regulates your hormones. So if I'm looking at thyroid or looking at hormones, I absolutely want to look at thyroid. And so you're going to ask your doctor for a TSH, a free T4 a free T3, reverse T3 and thyroid antibodies. That is, for me, a complete picture. And I'm going to validate your feel like when you go, my doctor is not listening to me. He's just doing a TSH and a free T4. I feel like there's still something going on. I'm going to tell you. Look further because I see thyroid issues all the time and it can be very validating for patients.
- [45:30]
Robin Schiller
And this is a good place to say that you have to advocate for yourself. Like, my dad went in and he did. You know, he's 86.
- [45:40]
Dr. Heidi Hook
So.
- [45:41]
Robin Schiller
Okay. Does. The blood panel. Did. Just. Tsh says you're. You're low. So let's give you some level, whatever that one is. So. So they've got my dad, who's 86 on this. He did nothing. I tried to tell him, but then I didn't know enough to say. I just said, dad, I really don't think you're getting the full picture. But he's one of those that will just listen to whatever the doctor says. Of course, he's of a. He's of that era where they just blindly trust. And he did have a doctor save his life. You know, they. He caught the heart attack before it happened and did quadruple bypass. So he. He has a reason to trust the doctors. But you have to advocate for yourself if they're. You know, there was a question on the Facebook group who. And I felt so bad because she said I went to my doctor and, you know, they don't know anything. And then they, you know, they don't. They're not listening. Two of them said that, like, two of them said your numbers look fine. Well, what numbers? Like, you need to advocate. You need to arm yourself with information. And. Yeah, between this podcast and probably Mary Claire Haver's new book. I haven't read it yet, but apparently it's a really good book. The New Menopause. Yeah. Do. Do some more research and. And advocate for yourself because nobody. The doctor's not going to. We know they don't get much. You know, they don't get much education about this, so. Yeah. So thank you for saying that because that's important and you've had me do that. My. My thyroid. And actually we've seen a change in my thyroid.
- [47:17]
Dr. Heidi Hook
We're seeing a change. It's coming back around.
- [47:19]
Robin Schiller
Yeah, it.
- [47:20]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Right.
- [47:20]
Robin Schiller
I'm sorry it took palpitations to figure that out, but. But I haven't been lower on my T4 medication. Right. The armor. Thyroid's T4 and I've cut it in half.
- [47:32]
Dr. Heidi Hook
T3.
- [47:32]
Robin Schiller
Yeah, I've cut it in half. And, and yeah, so things are changing for me now that I'm less toxic and.
- [47:40]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Right.
- [47:41]
Robin Schiller
You know. Yeah. So.
- [47:42]
Dr. Heidi Hook
And it takes time.
- [47:43]
Robin Schiller
Yeah.
- [47:43]
Dr. Heidi Hook
And yes, it's the toxicity. Things are starting to work. You don't need it. You know, that's what I see. It's like when you start having these symptoms of high thyroid, you know them, you have to educate yourself because when you start getting better, you have to lower your dose. I was also tell people, you know, I have been a thyroid patient. So I was on much, you know, I was on thyroid meds. And so I know this inside and out and I know what it feels like. And so I tell people if your doctor prescribing you thyroid is not a thyroid patient, I really wouldn't listen to him because he doesn't understand. They don't understand to the degree that somebody that a doctor that has thyroid issues or really understands T4, T3, reverse T3 antibodies, all of that. And if you have metals and then those muck up the receptor sites and so you can have perfect looking thyroid hormones but you're still feeling low thyroid because you have heavy metals because they're like blocking. They're blocking the receptors.
- [48:51]
Robin Schiller
Yeah.
- [48:52]
Dr. Heidi Hook
So it's just huge. Okay. So that is the thyroid and I see low thyroid all the time. So it's really important to be to look at that. And then the other I wanted to touch on are the neurotransmitters. So that, that is the main ones are serotonin, dopamine, GABA and acetylcholine. So serotonin helps with mood, sleep, satisfaction. Serotonin also is a precursor to melatonin and melatonin. I'm now looking at, I think melatonin is a new vitamin D. Melatonin is, I call it the, it's magic because it helps you sleep. And you have to have high cortisol in the morning to stimulate your body to make melatonin. And you have to have high melatonin at night to stimulate your body to make cortisol. So it's this diurnal rhythm that you're going to get. And serotonin is that main. Is the precursor to make melatonin and melatonin. I see people when they take melatonin, they're calmer the next day. And it is a precursor to a lot of some of these, what we call like these benzodiazepines, these gaba like hormones that makes you feel calmer. And I always tell people, if you're not sleeping, you're not healing. It's very stressful to your body. If you're not sleeping, you're not getting that good REM sleep. If you're not dreaming, waking up refreshed. So serotonin and melatonin are huge. And then dopamine is the motivation and the pleasure, and the GABA is calm and relaxation. And the acetylcholine is memory and cognition. So the hormones have, like, progesterone is more gaba, like, and you actually need a little bit of estrogen for serotonin to work. So if you're ser. If your estrogens are really dropping, then you can really lead to the mood swings and anxiety. You know, all, some of the symptoms that you're experiencing with menopause.
- [51:00]
Robin Schiller
It's so funny, as we're, as we're talking, I'm getting this like, duh, this is just like horse training. Like, all these people came with, with symptoms, right? They come with symptoms and they want, they want to know how to fix it. And we want this quick fix. We want, like, give me the pill. Give me the pill. And what you're explaining is exactly what Warwick explains. Like, it's not just a pill. It's like this whole ecosystem of stuff. You need to like, start at the start and go through the process. This is like, I'm just. It's like this huge light bulb. It's probably like with everything in life, but it's just so interesting that, yeah, we want, we want, like, tell me how to fix it. Tell me how to fix it. And it's like, well, you gotta look at everything. And that's the same thing with the horses.
- [51:53]
Dr. Heidi Hook
It's just. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. People ask me. I have this. So what should I take for it? I'm like, I have no idea. Because just because you have that one symptom, you could have a myriad of reasons of why you have that symptom. And I don't want to waste your money and your time throwing darts at what it possibly could be.
- [52:14]
Robin Schiller
Yeah, yeah. And that's what it is. Like, at some point you are going to have to come back and start at the beginning. And it's actually quicker if you just do that right then to throw the darts and to spend years throwing darts and seeing if they're working. And when, if you had just, when you said so, started at the start, got the whole picture, it would, would have been quicker and cheaper and. Yeah, because. Yeah, the cost that you would spend on all the darts, you might as well just figure it out at the beginning, right? I mean, not that we're not gonna address some of these things, but.
- [52:53]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Oh, absolutely.
- [52:54]
Robin Schiller
But what I'm hearing is like, yeah, you gotta. And I think I probably started with the symptoms and I've probably thrown a lot of darts. And I think it was, you know, bless her, Dr. Renee got me through menopause. She did. I mean, and I was relatively unscathed, you know, as far as symptoms. But it wasn't until you and I started working together that we. That you were like, you went deeper. You did, you, you talked more about the thyroid. You had me do the Dutch. You. The nutrient test that you do. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I had taken so many nutrient tests, but until you got me to do the micronutrient panel to tell me what was actually getting into my cells, the ones that I've done for 10 years have only told me what's in my blood. It hasn't said what goes in. So. So I really appreciate that you've taken, you know, you take the approach that you do, because I think I've gotten a way more complete picture. Again. No, she, she did me, right? Like, I, I absolutely, I. She did a great job. But. But I feel like I have a bigger picture now of what's going on and I think the toxins were a huge part of it. But, yeah. So I really do appreciate the full picture and the deep dives that you take.
- [54:21]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Thank you. And again, I do think that our body wants to heal and it wants to be optimally healthy. And we have forgotten what optimal health is. And that is why I did. Not that I'm going to plug, but not intentionally, but the, the program that I did. The path to sacred ground. Because sacred ground is where you heal and it is a path, but in that you find the core vitality program where you can do that deep detox at a cellular level. It's a four month detox. And it's really just a start, but you really get to see how toxic you are. And you're like, oh, okay, my brain is coming back, my energy is coming back. If you break a bone, it takes huge forces to keep that bone from wanting to heal. It's gonna heal. And so that is that intelligence and the energetic power of healing that our body wants to do. And so it's just about removing the obstacle to cure, which are the toxins. So your body can go back to its original version of its biochemistry, which means you're going to have balanced hormones and you may not even need to take them. But sometimes when you come in and you're toxic and the adrenals are low and you're hot flashing and you can't sleep, then absolutely we're going to come in and hold your hand and give you the right hormones and support your adrenals and then when you feel more stable then we can start doing some detoxing.
- [55:58]
Robin Schiller
And I'll plug it because it's on the courses site, so. Courses.warwickjiller.com um, yeah, it's the path to sacred ground. And what Heidi did was she, she, she has a four month program that is very extensive and, and it, she walks you through and you meet twice a month and you get all this incredible support. But she also, she, she kind of pared that down for a self paced self study course that we put onto the courses site and it, it's really good. I've been through it a lot. Even though I went through the four month course, I, you know, I've, I've gone back through and yeah, it's, it's very helpful.
- [56:39]
Dr. Heidi Hook
It's a lot of common knowledge that is, that's really easy to do. Right. There's so many things to do out there and then what's really works but.
- [56:47]
Robin Schiller
This and it puts it all in one place like, and puts it in an order and yeah, it's really good. So. Right, anyway, I'll plug it.
- [56:53]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Yes. And so thank you for that. And there was something I was going to say and it left my brain. Sorry, I should have written it down.
- [57:06]
Robin Schiller
We were talking about all melatonin and serotonin and that was before we got kind of off the track.
- [57:15]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Oh yeah. Oh, and some of the symptoms of menopause. And so what is so interesting to me is that when people are having hot flashes during the day that usually tells me that they don't have enough estrogen. When people have hot flashes at night, it's usually low progesterone. And progesterone, you can do it topical and the company that I really like is called Bezwecken and you can get, I think you have to go through a doctor to get it but we have it on our website. But they're, they're really great products. It tells you exactly how much estrogen and progesterone are in the, they have oils and they have topical creams and they have suppositories and, and everything and So I use. I use that because they work really well.
- [58:08]
Robin Schiller
That's what I'm on. Yeah.
- [58:10]
Dr. Heidi Hook
And so progesterone is usually pretty safe. I can pretty much give that to just about anybody. It's the estrogen that I want to see. Make sure that you can break it down. And there's just so many things to say about all that. But Bezwecken is an amazing company, and I've been using them probably for 30 years. They've been around since that long. Dr. David Schifrin, he's a naturopath, and he's done a really great job putting everything together. I think it's the cleanest product out there, and so I really like them. And so hormones can be really important. So there was a question that was on Facebook, the different ways to get your hormones.
- [58:56]
Robin Schiller
Yep. Well, let's back. Can we back up to one before that and address the whole bad science? Right. Bad research that was done in the 70s and that was it, 70s or 80s, that really scared women, you know, away from doing hormone therapy. And how now it's come out that that was really flawed research. Right.
- [59:23]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Yeah, it was. Well, it was because they were not using bioidentical hormones. They were using. They were using synthetic estrogens and synthetic progesterone.
- [59:35]
Robin Schiller
Okay.
- [59:35]
Dr. Heidi Hook
And your body, Premarin. Right. It's horses urine. It's from horse's urine, and it is very inflammatory. When we break it down, it's very powerful. And I try to get every woman that comes into my office off any kind of Premarin and any other synthetic estrogen. There are some patches, like the Vivelle, the Chlomyra, that are decent. But your prescription, if you get a prescription, it needs to say estradiol. That is then bioidentical. If it doesn't say estradiol, it's not bioidentical.
- [60:13]
Robin Schiller
And then you can have that inflammatory thing that then you're. Then it could, like you said, damage the DNA. And then you're looking at some cancer situations.
- [60:24]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Correct.
- [60:24]
Robin Schiller
Possibly.
- [60:25]
Dr. Heidi Hook
And then it's the progest. So the studies were using progestins, which is a completely. It's a progesterone, like hormone, but it is not our bioidentical progesterone. So it has a plethora of side effects. And that is where women were getting, you know, blood clots and heart attacks, and they had to stop the study because they were using synthetic progesterones. And so I am on the other side going, no bioidentical progesterone is amazing. We've had it all of our life. And bioidentical estrogens balanced with progesterone and making sure you can break them down are amazing. It can fill the gaps and make you feel great. So that's the study that was not done correctly and they were using the wrong, they were using the wrong hormones.
- [61:21]
Robin Schiller
And I admit that I had heard of that study and I'd always heard hormone therapy bad, don't do it. So poor Renee, she tried to get me to do. And I'm just like, I am not doing hormone therapy. Just, I want to do it all natural. And she just was, you know, she had too many people to fight to argue with. So she just, you know, she didn't need to argue with me. She had other people that, that was probably, you know, like, yes, please give them to me. And so anyway, but, but Robin, I.
- [61:51]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Think it was the Dutch that really turn you around. Well, yeah, yeah, like let's do the Dutch and I'll show you. And then if you do hormones, we can redo the Dutch and we can make sure that any estrogen you are taking is good.
- [62:04]
Robin Schiller
Yeah, I'm going to actually go on and get. I think it's time we've been on. I've been on it for like six or eight months. So.
- [62:10]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Yeah, so that's the whole thing with that. And so I, I love hormones. I think they can, they can make and break you. And especially so in a perfect world, if our body is healthy, our adrenals should and our hormones start to fade, our adrenal glands should kick in, make the post menopausal levels of hormones. There's a steady state and we should feel fine. It's the kind of more of the, like, our body doesn't like high hormones, it doesn't like low hormones and it doesn't like to change. So it's, you know, if we have a really healthy adrenal gland, then we can go through that menopause pretty easily, that perimenopause really easily. If we don't, it's kind of like a roller coaster ride, a space mountain. You have no idea what's happening that day. It's a twist and a turn and up and down and you know, and it's like it's space mountain.
- [63:06]
Robin Schiller
Yep.
- [63:07]
Dr. Heidi Hook
And so that's where doing progesterone can really be calming. Doing some estrogens, low steady state and doing some adrenal support and making sure your thyroid is good can be night and day for that Transition time to get into menopause. And I'm going to say menopause is a powerful time. It is. You know, we come from more wisdom, we're steadier, and it's where we create our community, where before we were creating babies. And the amount of power it takes to create babies is enormous. And I think women are magic. And now the menopause, we're actually pausing in our power to create at a whole different level. And that is where I think menopause is really beautiful and really empowering. And it's all in that second chakra. And so that second chakra holds all of our emotions. And if we have traumas, sometimes that can really show up in menopause. And so really being able to do some dialogue around any kind of traumas and emotions and being able to get to the other side so we can release that energy and our hormones then can balance out, because we are spirit, mental emotion, body, and a synchronicity and an orchestration of all of that which makes us human. We're not just a physical body that we can slap on a hormone and have it act a certain way. I think that the emotions and the spirit and any traumas that are stuck in our body changes everything. And so looking at that whole piece is really important.
- [64:57]
Robin Schiller
So it's no wonder that menopause. This is like when people are taking the time to figure themselves out and to, you know. Yeah, because you were so. All the energy was going into babies and raising babies, and now we have the energy. Well, maybe some of us have the energy to take a deeper dive into ourselves and. Yeah, that makes sense.
- [65:24]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Yeah. And so some deep traumas can come out and people can have, you know, yeast infections. You know, all of these symptoms can be linked to traumas that are like, hey, come out. And so depending on the trauma and what your signs and symptoms, there's everything we can do to get in and start pulling that trauma out so your body can come back and. And work optimally.
- [65:57]
Robin Schiller
Okay. We were getting into the different ways to get the hormones into us.
- [66:04]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Oh, yes, the different ways. So the way I like. So there's oral. So a lot of people can take oral estrogen or oral progesterone. Now, estrogen is harder to break down. And so it. And when you take anything orally, it goes into your stomach, into your. Into your liver, and then the liver processes it, and whatever's left over goes to the rest of your body. And so it's all a little bit harder on your liver when you Put. Because right when your body is making them, the hormones are just released to your bloodstream and then whatever's left over goes to your liver and your liver breaks it down. So when you do a topical or under the tongue, then that were injections, which I don't really like injection because it's a big dose all at once, and then I don't like that. Or pellets. I know somebody was asking about pellets that gets released into your bloodstream and then whatever's left over goes into your liver and the liver doesn't have to work so hard. So I prefer sublingual and creams, and whether creams or oils, I prefer those. And because the pellets, some people love them, you have to really know your dose. And it's, you know, they, they put the pellets under your arm, under your skin, in your arm, and if it's the wrong dose, you have to go surgically, have them taken out. And so that's why. And because naturopaths, we can't do that. So I don't do those. But I also have had a lot of women come in that are on the pellets that are on the wrong doses, and they have to go back to their doctor and they have to either take them out and put it in a lower dose. And so it's just kind of a bigger deal. And that's why I like doing the oral or sublingual or topical on that. And so that works better to me. Now, that being said, I like progesterone topically. I also, if you're having a really hard time sleeping, sometimes doing oral progesterone can be, for whatever reason, you either get higher doses of progesterone and you can do 100 milligrams. I've taken people up to 400 milligrams of progesterone at night to get you sleeping. And sometimes it takes that kind of a dose because their progesterone was so low that it takes that kind of a dose to get it back up, and then you can titrate back down.
- [68:41]
Robin Schiller
That was a big. A lot of people ask that question on the Facebook. How do I sleep?
- [68:47]
Dr. Heidi Hook
How do I sleep? So sleep is a perfect orchestration of your hormones, your cortisol, your melatonin, your neurotransmitters, inflammation, histamine, and parasites. Because if you have bugs and parasites, I guarantee you it's going to affect your sleep. And so again, it's everything. And so the progesterone is amazing. I think that most people are running low in progesterone because we live in a stressful world. And so and progesterone is for me anti cancer, it's anti inflammatory, it's incredibly safe. And then the injections, we usually just do testosterone for injections. I don't really like testosterone in injections because it's usually have to do a high dose and then it takes the week for it to roll down and then you hit it again and that's just not as natural. Usually I like to have more of a steady state and so I like that. Now again, men and women, right xx XY we all have estrogen, progesterone, estrogens, progesterone and testosterone. Men have much more testosterone than estrogen and progesterone, but they still have estrogen and progesterone. And when I start a woman on testosterone I'm going to do like 2 milligrams, a very, very low dose and probably not go any higher. I'll start men on 10 where Western medicine puts men on 100, which is a really big dose and can shut down their ability to make testosterone. So I like to just supplement instead of layer it on so thick that it shuts things down.
- [70:39]
Robin Schiller
And how do you do that? Which you said the shot is really big.
- [70:43]
Dr. Heidi Hook
What are the other so topical or sublingual? Okay, there is topical or sublingual and testosterone is a prescription. So that is a prescription only from a compounding pharmacy. But there's a supplement out shilajit.
- [70:59]
Robin Schiller
Oh yeah, I take that.
- [71:01]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Which can help your body make testosterone. So you know it's come from Russia. So all the Russian athletes are.
- [71:10]
Robin Schiller
I saw that at the biohacking conference last year. So that I bought some. Yeah. And I've been on it ever since.
- [71:15]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Yeah, yeah. So that can help make some testosterone is if you don't have access to compounding pharmacy or somebody who will write you a prescription for testosterone then the shilajit is a really great way around that.
- [71:33]
Robin Schiller
So another of the questions maybe we'll just get through and I and it's not like I guess I've switched to like how to fix this to what is actually happening when we have these. Because you've been really good about if you have night, you know, if you have the hot flashes during the day it's this and if it's that. So maybe answer these questions that way. I don't know the dry skin. You somebody asked or somebody mentioned that they have been putting the estrogen on their face and that it's been working. So what. What form? So the estradiol.
- [72:09]
Dr. Heidi Hook
No, not estradiol.
- [72:10]
Robin Schiller
Okay.
- [72:11]
Dr. Heidi Hook
So we're only going to be putting estriol.
- [72:13]
Robin Schiller
Estriol.
- [72:16]
Dr. Heidi Hook
So there's actually from Bezwecken, they have a product called Transitions, and it has estriol, I think it has progesterone in it. And you can put that on your skin and it builds collagen.
- [72:27]
Robin Schiller
Oh, cool. Okay.
- [72:28]
Dr. Heidi Hook
And so you can put it on your skin, on your face, and we can look 10 years younger.
- [72:33]
Robin Schiller
Do you have that on your site?
- [72:35]
Dr. Heidi Hook
We do.
- [72:36]
Robin Schiller
Okay, awesome. I'm ordering that too. Okay, so good. Tick that one off. What about hair loss?
- [72:44]
Dr. Heidi Hook
So hair loss comes from lots of different sources. It can come from stress, it can come from toxicity. So low cortisol, it can come from low thyroid, and it can come from low hormones. So usually progesterone. When you're pregnant, your progesterone is off the charts, and you get this huge full head of hair. And then when women deliver, all that hair sometimes disappears. And in menopause, it's both estrogen and progesterone. And it's mostly the progesterone that then can cause the thinning hair. But I also see people when their body is so depleted, their body goes, you know what? I don't need anything extraneous. I have to take care of my core. So get rid of hair. We don't need any energy going to hair because we can't. It's not worth our. We're not getting anything from it. So those are people that can be losing their hair because they just are so depleted. But it's adrenals, it's thyroid, and it's hormones. It's all three.
- [73:45]
Robin Schiller
Okay, what about. Oh, go ahead.
- [73:47]
Dr. Heidi Hook
The frizzy hair. Yeah, that is also not enough estrogen, not enough progesterone.
- [73:53]
Robin Schiller
Okay, what about frozen shoulder?
- [73:59]
Dr. Heidi Hook
So when you don't have enough estrogen, it causes not enough. Like, when you don't have enough estrogen, you're not making your elastin, you're not making your collagen, and not enough progesterone, it puts a huge stress on your system, and it creates inflammation. And so that can then end up as that frozen shoulder because your estrogen is. I mean, it's a beautiful hormone. We need to have the right amount in our bodies. And if you either don't have enough of the estradiol, but you have too much estrone, which is very inflammatory, then it's like too much or not enough does the same thing.
- [74:47]
Robin Schiller
Yeah. So that would also be that gluteal tendinopathy.
- [74:51]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Exactly, exactly.
- [74:53]
Robin Schiller
I've got that especially because I sleep on my left side and I know that hip is just always. Yeah, that's, that's gotta be part of it.
- [75:02]
Dr. Heidi Hook
So the, the tendons get stiffer, the elastin like we, the crepey skin, you know, and that's all hormone related. And so topically like short term you can do some mild hormones, but it's really about getting to that underlying reason.
- [75:20]
Robin Schiller
Yeah. And that's, I, I now I'm like, why am I bringing up all these? Because that's the thing. It sounds like you got to figure out what, you got to figure it out. You got to go figure out where you are, what's what, you know, what your system looks like. You have to see what's in there. Yeah. But I guess knowing the, knowing the mechanisms. So I do want to talk about palpitations because that's been my recent situation and I know it's more than. Yeah, mine's a whole slew of things and I've got it under control thanks to you. But that can also be a symptom.
- [76:02]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Absolutely, absolutely. So the low estrogen and I think the low progesterone I think puts a stress on your adrenal glands and, and we get more reactive and so our body can make more epinephrine and if you're not able to break epinephrine down then it's like, you know, fight flight and it can lead to heart palpitations. So heart palpitations are really, really common. And when estrogen goes down, it actually, you know, we get back on the level. You know, we can have more heart disease more along the lines with, as men do. And so estrogen is very cardio protective. So having the right amount of estrogen can be very helpful to our heart. It can be very calming. But then if we have too much, it's not good either. So it's all about the balance.
- [77:01]
Robin Schiller
Yep. Okay, let me look at these other questions.
- [77:05]
Dr. Heidi Hook
I think we've covered one of the tests that one of the questions that I kept hearing over and over was menno belly. Right. Is the gaining. So there's a thing that when your hormones start to go down, your adrenal glands should pick in or should kick in and start making the hormones. But also the adipose and the fat cells start to, you can gain 10 to 20 pounds because that also helps you make estrogen. But there's this whole thing with leptin and ghrelin and that's the other thing I wanted to talk about. Because when we. The estrogen can. When the estrogen goes down, that can change the hypothalamus and it can change your leptin and ghrelin. So leptin is that satiety hormone. I used to get a mixed stat. What's which is which. Which is leptin. What does that do? What does ghrelin do? And leptin? I think about a little leprechaun who's giving goodwill and he's this, like, little thing and jumping around and he's happy, so he's satiated. Ghrelin is like a gremlin. And it's like, I'm hungry. And then. So I always remember leptin and ghrelin, leprechaun and gremlin. Right now, leptin is interesting. So it. It's produced by the fat cells and it signals the hypothalamus that your body has enough. Has enough fat for energy. And the leptin suppresses the appetite and it promotes fat burning it also. And the thyroid and all of the hormones that we just talked about interact with leptin. So if you don't have enough estrogen, your leptin goes down. And when your leptin goes down, your ghrelin can go up. And so because estrogen increases leptin sensitivity. So if your estrogen goes down, then you're not as sensitive to the leptin, and it makes you feel, let's see, it increases the leptin sensitivity, estrogen does, so it helps you feel satisfied. Estrogen also lowers your ghrelin, and so it reduces your appetite. And so that's where you know, when people, when their hormones go down, they're like, I'm hungry, but I'm gaining weight. You know, it's like I'm trying to satisfy myself and I don't feel like I'm overeating. If I'm hungry, I'm eating. But they're gaining weight. It's because your estrogen dropped, your leptin sensitivity changed, and your ghrelin came up and you started eating more. Progesterone also stimulates your appetite, especially in that second half of your cycle. But when it's out of balance, then it can promote more emotional eating and cravings. So it's. That's when you know the pms, if you're not breaking your hormones down adequately, then your people get hungry and they have the cravings. So the progesterone and the too high of Hormones can do that. So it's really important that estrogen can have a really. Estrogen and progesterone can have a really great way of kind of balancing that, the ghrelin and the leptin, so we can not gain that mental belly. And sometimes I think about, well, if your adrenals are working and you still have that ten pounds, then maybe you do need a little bit of hormone so you can get rid of that 10 pounds, 10 to 20 pounds. So that doesn't have to make your estrogens, you can make it. Although I still think that there's some deficiencies somewhere where if your adrenal glands were really working, right. If we all lived in a place of no stress or very little stress, where the stress was the lion, right. Not the chronic stress, then our bodies would be able to make it. I think there was a question about what did the. Not the aborigines, but the people that don't have access to hormones, what did they do? They had better adrenal glands and they weren't toxic, so their bodies worked in a whole different way. And so we're trying to get people back to that, right. To the non toxic and the no stress, where our body can make hormones optimally because I bet they didn't have all these symptoms.
- [82:01]
Robin Schiller
Right, right.
- [82:04]
Dr. Heidi Hook
So because elevated chronic stress lowers your leptin sensitivity and so, you know, your thyroid lowers your leptin sensitivity, increases your ghrelin, so you know when your thyroid is off, when your stress is off and your hormones are off, it all pushes us to eat more, gain fat and you know, it's crazy. It's like I feel like we, you know, are on an uphill battle, but we're not because we can detox, we can support our adrenals, we can support our hormones until our body can do it itself and then we can feel great.
- [82:43]
Robin Schiller
I'm going to ask just a couple of specific questions if that's okay. Yeah, just to give them an. I give them a. Like, check this out. I have a friend in Arizona who asks about. Let me see where that was. Somebody who has estradiol and progesterone didn't help. She's sleeping like 12 hours a day. She said her doctor says all my numbers are normal, which. Okay, we already know she's probably not getting all the numbers, but. So she's not. Not sleeping. She's sleeping a lot.
- [83:16]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Yeah. So sleep has to be this perfect orchestration. It may be that her adrenals are totally tanked and she's not making cortisol to help wake her up. And also histamine can add to that. And so it might be that her adrenals are really tired. And so you're not getting that rise of cortisol in the morning to wake up, like, okay, let's start this day. Let's have energy. And if she also isn't having quality sleep, then she's getting quantity to get the amount of sleep that she needs. And so taking, you know, making sure your epinephrine is low, your cortisol at night, epinephrine is low, cortisol is low, histamine is low, melatonin is high. You have enough serotonin, you have enough gaba, you get some progesterone, and you're able to get down into that quality sleep where you're dreaming, then your sleep hours can start to come back down to 8, 9, and more of a regular time. But if the sleep is not restful, is not dropping down, then she may not be. And so her body is like, I need more.
- [84:33]
Robin Schiller
I think that makes sense, knowing who it is and knowing she's had a rough year. So, yeah, she's been stressed, I'm sure.
- [84:40]
Dr. Heidi Hook
So sleep is a perfect orchestration of hormones and neurotransmitters and inflammation to be able to sleep and get the quality of sleep that you need.
- [84:51]
Robin Schiller
Awesome. Okay. Another very specific question. Post menopause, she's got high testosterone, hair, low hair loss, which we already talked about. Her voice changed, but she also. I think she's had an ovary removed.
- [85:10]
Dr. Heidi Hook
I saw that.
- [85:11]
Robin Schiller
Okay. Yeah.
- [85:13]
Dr. Heidi Hook
So testosterone should get broken down to estradiol. And if there is some things that are inhibiting that, it can go and get broken down to this five alpha hydroxy testosterone, which is a much more androgenic inflammatory testosterone. And so this is where people are breaking things down through the five alpha pathway. And she could be breaking down the progesterone, which is adding to that down the five alpha and this testosterone. So this is where the Dutch comes in handy, because if her testosterone is high, she's not breaking it down, and she needs some support to be able to break it down, but it's going down the wrong pathway, and so it's much more androgenic.
- [86:01]
Robin Schiller
Nice. Perfect.
- [86:03]
Dr. Heidi Hook
And that's why I love the Dutch.
- [86:05]
Robin Schiller
Yeah. So here are you. Okay, You've answered a lot of these. Why do you think that this topic has been so taboo? Why isn't there, like, I did notice, like, it's starting to become, at least in my algorithm, it's, it's hitting every day, but it's only showed up recently. And this, I just, you know, nobody. When we're not talked about, you know, it's not talked about. My mom went through menopause at 50 and she just said, I'm not doing menopause. And she didn't, she just, she just stopped her periods and seemingly didn't have any symptoms. But it's just interesting that it's. Yeah, the question was why, why has it been such a avoided subject?
- [87:07]
Dr. Heidi Hook
I, I think there's lots of different answers for that. I think one is, you know, getting over the stigma of those bad tests of bad studies and realizing, you know, so I've been doing this for 30 years. I've been doing bioidentical hormones for 30 years. So it's, you know, it's always been.
- [87:26]
Robin Schiller
A topic for you.
- [87:27]
Dr. Heidi Hook
It's always been a topic for me. And it's, you know, I think that women, we tend to be caregivers, we tend to be there to support others, and so we don't put ourselves first on the list. I mean, if you ask how many women that are listening to this are first on the list, that's why this isn't an issue. This, this hasn't been brought up sooner. And, you know, I'm. And so when we really put ourselves first, I mean, women do seek out medical care more than men, but the level of training in our, in our, in our MDs just isn't there. And naturopaths are the ones. And I'm going to say it, Big Pharma doesn't make money from having healthy women, and so they make money off of pharmaceuticals. And that's what I see all the time. And I think women are beyond powerful. I think we've forgotten, and especially the postmenopausal woman, I think that we are beyond powerful and I think we've forgotten our power. And I think that if we all stepped in and we found our healthy adrenals, cleaned ourselves out and balanced our hormones, we could make some huge changes in the world and probably lower a lot of hospital bills. So I think part of its finances, part of it is we like to help other people and we don't put ourselves first. And there's a lot of misinformation, a lot of not really well educated. And so, you know, we, and we tend to look on blinders at hormones instead of looking at the whole picture, right? Adrenals, thyroid. And I mean, there are so many, even naturopaths that don't know, reverse T3 and free T3 and how important that is. And so I think it just comes from this grassroots of getting the information out. People writing books and people saying, hey, wait a minute, I'm not optimal and that's not okay. And I'm going to keep looking for the answer to help me feel awesome. So. And there's probably other, other reasons for that, but those are the ones that I come up with.
- [90:02]
Robin Schiller
Yeah. What other resources? So we've obviously this podcast is a great resource and the testing, so the Dutch test for sure and then thyroid testing. So those are resources. What about other. I'm, I mean, if somebody wanted to go read more about menopause or have you, have you had any exposure to Dr. Mary Clair Haver? Have you watched her stuff? Do you agree with it? Do you?
- [90:34]
Dr. Heidi Hook
I haven't, I haven't. I haven't looked at her stuff. There's. I'm kind of been going down a different avenue right now of learning about all the back, all the gut flora in your gut.
- [90:47]
Robin Schiller
We'll probably have to do another podcast.
- [90:50]
Dr. Heidi Hook
About that too, which is like, I feel like I'm back at call. It's mind boggling the bacteria in our gut. So I've been going down that road. I think Christiane Northrup, I love all of her stuff. I think that she. Ann Northrup. Christiane Northrup, Dr. Christiane Northrup. I think she, you know, she was one of the very first people out there putting out books about menopause and doing things differently. So I like her stuff. And if this other woman is, I mean, I haven't looked at her, she.
- [91:30]
Robin Schiller
Was an OBGYN or she is. And yeah, she's just started to make, you know, she's just started to have the conversation about it. And she's a, you know, she's a social, she's a social media person. And so she's been, now she's making the rounds on all the podcasts and Oprah and all of that. And it's good because it's getting the word out. It's getting, yeah, it's shining a light on this. And if you think about a lot of the, you know, celebrities and stuff are coming of this age, like Gwyneth Paltrow, she's starting to talk about it on goop and you know, so it is becoming, because we are becoming of that age, I guess. You know, it's getting more exposure, which is good. I mean, I wish I had had somebody to talk to about it. Now. I do it Is.
- [92:25]
Dr. Heidi Hook
And you know, I think also that, you know, the media has, I mean, the social media has really exploded. And you know, I'm not really good at self promoting. I don't really like the spotlight. I really like the one on one. And it's hard to access a big audience when. When you don't want to. Although I love the message. And so, you know, you definitely, Robin, have gotten me out of my comfort zone doing these pod podcasts. But I'm just talking to you right now, so.
- [92:59]
Robin Schiller
Yeah, that's right.
- [93:00]
Dr. Heidi Hook
It's all good.
- [93:01]
Robin Schiller
You're going to probably be, I mean, at least what. We had 72 comments, so you might have like 72 new people. So remember, I'm going to say what I said before. Remember me, always have appointments for me.
- [93:14]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Please, Robin, I will always have appointments for you. You have taken me out of my comfort zone. And, you know, just because I don't like to do social media, I still am passionate about this message and I am definitely getting better. My office manager is always pushing me and I'm getting better at it. But I am very passionate about this message and hormones and thyroid and gut health and detoxifying and really redefining what it means to have this really great optimal health. And there's everything you can do.
- [93:54]
Robin Schiller
Yep.
- [93:55]
Dr. Heidi Hook
And, you know, even just drinking enough water, right? Just drinking enough water and having affirmations instead of going to those negative thoughts, if you have a negative thought, you can just go, okay, well, what's good about this? What's good about that thought that I have? What's good? And focus on the gratitude. Focus on what's good and that calms your body down. Having belly breath, doing belly breathing, going out and grounding and walking in the grass and getting back into the earth or hanging out with your horses. I've been doing the meditations with some horses, my horses. And I have a mare who is very feminine and I have a gelding who is very, come on, let's do it. And it's really interesting when people aren't. When they're like, she'll stand in front of them kind of glowing like, come on, love, open your heart. And he'll be there, like, almost biting them, like, come on, be bold, be magnificent. Do it now. And just that, like, he gets fed up with people, like, come on, come on already. And when they finally go, okay, I'm gonna release it, he'll just drop his head and start chewing and like finally, you know, and then they go over in the corner and lay down because they're like, finally, she did her work. She let go of that stuff and became who they are. So I think that the horses are amazing and connecting to our partners, to each other, to the earth, to the trees. And that helps us all be healthy and calm our nervous system down so we can use that energy to make optimal hormones.
- [95:51]
Robin Schiller
That sounds like a great place to stop. Thank you so much. Yeah, I hope that this has been helpful for everybody. It's been helpful for me and I've been working with you, but I still, like, I learned that's what I do love about working with you too, is when we meet after a test, you know, you explain things and you explain. Yeah, I have a deeper understanding of what's going on inside of me and I don't feel so alone and I don't feel so misunderstood. And so it's been really, really great. So thank you so much and yeah, I really appreciate it.
- [96:28]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Well, it's all right. Back to you, Robyn. Thank you so much. And I have to say that the reason I love naturopathic medicine so much is because there's so, so much to learn. And when I get a test back and I'm like, that doesn't make sense. I'll call the company and go over the test with one of their experts who does that test all the time. And then I learn a lot. And then I'm going to a conference now for three days, four days, and I'm leaving next week. And I'm so excited because I know I'm going to come back with a whole nother installation of information. And so I tell people, if you haven't seen me in a year, you haven't seen me because the information is just, you know, I just can't keep up on it. There's just so much to learn. So, yeah, I don't have time to read all those books because I'm off on these other paths and so. But I appreciate you so much. Thank you so much for having me back. And this is a huge topic that needs this light shone on it and so thank you for doing this.
- [97:31]
Robin Schiller
No worries. I'll post every, all of your links in the, in the show notes and everything.
- [97:35]
Dr. Heidi Hook
So until next time, thanks, Robin.
- [97:41]
Warwick Schiller
Thanks for being a part of the journey on podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warwick has over 850 full length training videos on his online video library@videos.warwickshiller.com Be sure to follow Warrick on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram to see his latest training advice and insights.
- [98:01]
Dr. Heidi Hook
Sa.