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- [00:07]
A
Journey On Magic lies within the trails we ride. You're listening to the Journey on podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warrick is a horseman, trainer, international clinician and author who helps empower horse people from all over the world with the skills, knowledge and mindsets needed to create trusting partnerships with their horses. Warrick offers a free seven day trial to his comprehensive online video library that includes hundreds of full length training videos and several home Study courses@videos.warwickshiller.com
- [00:45]
B
G' day everyone. Welcome back to the Journey on podcast. I'm your host, Warwick Schiller and my very special guest today is Dr. Isla Fishburne. Her bio says that she's a zoologist, a spiritual ecologist, soul activist, conservation biologist, shamanic practitioner, medicine teacher, and canine wellness professional. So she has a PhD in Conservation Biology and she, at one point in time she spent three years working closely with captive wolves and she says where being in their company taught her about presence, connection, community and seeing life from beyond the thinking mind. It was during this time that Ayla began to realize how nature, consciousness and death has been a close ally for her since childhood and how they've been asking her to know of them since then, which is what she now offers and does. That might sound a little bit cryptic to you, but wait till you have a listen to this conversation with this lady. What an amazing life she has lived, what amazing story she's got to tell. And I hope you guys enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Isla Fishburne, welcome to the Journey on podcast.
- [02:06]
A
Hi Warwick. It's really great to be here.
- [02:09]
B
So you're, you sent me a bio the other day and I just got to go through this. Zoologist, spiritual ecologist, soul activist, conservation biologist, shamanic practitioner, medicine teacher, canine wellness professional, grief tender, ceremonial leader, channeler, award winning author. That's a lot.
- [02:32]
A
Yeah. When you read it, when you read it out like that way, I'm like, is that me? Like, yeah, that is me.
- [02:37]
B
And then on the bottom, you know, we are talking to each other on a platform that we record these podcasts on and it's, it's got my name on the bottom of my screen and it's got your name on the bottom of your screen, but in front of your name is the letters D R, meaning you also are a doctor. So that's not even in your bio there. So what's, what, what doctorate do you have?
- [02:58]
A
My doctor's in conservation biology.
- [03:00]
B
Okay. That's okay. Conservation biology. Okay. Holy cow. That's a lot. I'm not Even sure I want to unravel that yet. Let's. I think I'm going to jump straight back to beginning. So you live on the northeast coast of England?
- [03:14]
A
Yeah, that's correct. Really? It's always really funny me to say that, because all land is sacred and holy and ancient, but, yeah, I live in the very ancient, holy, sacred lands of Northumberland.
- [03:25]
B
Mm. What. What my question about that is, what makes it maybe more sacred? I have a. Have a friend who lives in Wales and the valley that she lives. She lives in Aberystwyth, but the valley, like north of her there. She said back in the day when they were burning witches and all sorts of things, there was a section of that. That there were a lot of Druids, I think, in who they weren't persecuted. And so that, you know, that way of looking at the world kind of flourished there for a lot longer than it did anywhere else. Is Northumberland a little that way or what makes it so special?
- [04:06]
A
Yeah, Northumberland. I feel, you know, I feel the spirit of the land really strong. Like, the spirits are really strong in the land there. And there's a lot of history, like we shared before, of Hadrian's Wall, the Vikings coming across, of the invasions, and we've got very close to us an old stone circle that is older than Stonehenge. So there's a lot, like, you shared of this. This almost pagan druid just way of being with the land that. That felt practiced for so long and for. It's so old that you can. You can just still feel it in the land and hear it in the land. It's like the. The stones have a song. You can hear the spirits. They're really, really strong.
- [04:48]
B
Gives me the shivers thinking about that. I had a. I had a guest on the podcast a few years ago who is a Native American, and I was really interested in, you know, like Native American wisdom, Indigenous wisdom, whatever. And she was talking about cultural appropriation. And I said. I said to her, well, for me, my interest is not really cultural appropriation. My interest is in. Is in, you know, indigenous wisdom. Not just your indigenous, but everybody's indigenous wisdom. But. And she said, well, do you realize that you are indigenous to somewhere and these ways of interacting with the world and the ways of being in the world, you know, you have that back in your lineage somewhere. So most of my ancestors are from Ireland, so it'd be somewhat similar to, you know, what was going on in.
- [05:41]
A
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I really love what you've actually brought into the conversation of the Cultural appreciation, cultural appropriation. Because there's the two different. The cultural appropriation which is not right and shouldn't have happened and should still, certainly not be happening still. And then the other side is the cultural appreciation where we can give back, where we can receive, but we are honoring, we are working with reciprocity, we are understanding and validating and respecting those peoples, those lands, there's cultures, those communities that haven't been lost from, from our, our, our sacredness and yet in its entirety. And that's why for me, I'm, I really aware that the word indigenous is quite charged. It can create quite a lot of charge of people, which I completely understand. And yet underneath everything, which is why I choose to word, to use the word tribal, that we are all tribal people. And, and that's what we understand. That's why when we're out in nature and we're out on the land, we're like, there's, there's a part of me that I recognize, there's a part of me that I feel is a part of me that longs to belong again. And that's the tribal part of that, that we all are. Because we are all genetically ancient beings. We live in a modern day world, but we are genetically ancient humans that are indigenous, that are tribal, that, that understand these tribal ceremonial roots that we have within us.
- [07:04]
B
Did you just say genetically ancient?
- [07:07]
A
Genetically ancient humans living in a modern day world?
- [07:10]
B
I love, I love that because I, you know, a lot of times in the podcast I'm talking to someone about like, you know, we basically still have hunter gatherer bodies, but we no longer live in those types of communities anymore. But genetically ancient. I love that.
- [07:25]
A
And that's what we're searching for and seeking of these tribes again, these communities. It's a really, really big loss for us because as a genetically ancient human, it's, you know, we get conditioned to be in the space of being in our thinking mind. But actually what our bodies, our blood, our bones, our DNA misses is coming together with song, with drum, with dance, with, you know, crying to the bones of the earth. That's what we understand. Our very being understands the sound and sense of a song, of color, of vibration, of music. It doesn't really care about media or data or facts or figures, although that's what we're conditioned to live from. And so it's that tribal aspect of sacred, of soul, of, of really remembering who we are as a, as a connection and a part of the, the ancient sacred landscapes. We're not separate to it Wowzers.
- [08:26]
B
That, that's what I'm on about. So let's. Can we unravel this? Like where were you, where were you born and what sort of family did you grow up in?
- [08:34]
A
Oh so yeah, I was. So I'm in Northumberland now, Northeast England, out was born just an hour south of Northumberland, so in County Durham. And my childhood, you know, it's always when you're going up as a child, you don't know any different. You assume this is how life is for everybody. And I was so fortunate that in the street where I grew up, at the back of our street, there was access to a lovely nature reserve that we nicknamed the Sandhills. Well, that was my playground. So every day in any holiday in after school and not so much in the wintertime I suppose, but I was down in Sandhills and I was conversing with nature. I was aware that nature is alive. Now we understand it as the anima mundi, that the soul of the living earth. Back then I didn't know what it was. I just knew everything is alive. You know, I'm conversing, I'm welcoming the clouds, the plants, the mushrooms, the little beetles, the tadpoles, the waters. Everything is alive. And yeah, that was my family, that was my playground. And in that space of my biological family, who doesn't have family wounds, right? So beautiful, caring, loving parents and yet the instill of childhood trauma from something that happened that kind of led me to the work that I do now. So I always map that back like, oh, this, this, this was where it began, this was the activation. And yet doing my own soul work around the family that I was born into as extended family members, where because I am the granddaughter of a grandmother that was shunned, that was judged, that was blamed, that was shamed by default. Growing up as a child, I am placed in those energies, those senses and feelings. So it brought up as a child, like, what is wrong with me? Like how, how. Why doesn't my own family, like appreciate me, want to spend time with me, like want to hear what I have to say. So it really kind of was that, that stepping stone of what I do now, but that really deep wound of like if my own family don't approve me, then there must be something deeply wrong with me.
- [10:47]
B
You mentioned a word in there I've never heard before, but I want you to want to go back to it because I wrote down the first, what I think are the three, first three letters. It started with A N. Annie something, Anima, Undy. How do you spell that?
- [11:01]
A
So A N, I, M, A anima.
- [11:04]
B
Yeah.
- [11:05]
A
Mundi M, U, N, D, I.
- [11:08]
B
The soul of the Earth. Is that what you said? I've never heard that. That's a real word. That's not something you made up.
- [11:15]
A
Oh, no, I made up. No, I'm joking. It's a real word. Yeah, it's a real word.
- [11:19]
B
I have. No.
- [11:20]
A
Wow,
- [11:24]
B
that's. That's fascinating because I've had a lot of people like you, you know, in sort of genre on the podcast. Never heard that. And what's re. What is fascinating that. This is getting weird already. So I've been taking notes while you were talking. Okay. Just for me later, not for anything else. So I've written down genetically ancient. So I've got a notepad here. I've written down genetically ancient. And then I put a comma. And then you said the words crying to the bones of the earth. Okay. So when I wrote that down, I said crying to the bones of. And I ran out of space on that line, but instead of going back to the beginning of the next line underneath crying to the bones of, I wrote the earth. Okay, you with me? So then you tell me about this Animandi thing. So I'm like, oh. And I start writing it down. So I write down animandi dash, the soul of. And as I get of written the next two words on that line already that are already there are the Earth
- [12:33]
A
your soul already knows, my friend.
- [12:36]
B
Oh, my goodness. I don't want to. I don't want to pry too much into your family unless it's, you know, unless it's pertinent to the story and you want to share, but, you know, you were convert. You were at the Sandhills, and you're conversing with the plants and the animals and the earth and itself.
- [12:54]
A
Yeah.
- [12:55]
B
Did you share that with your parents? And was that. Oh, yeah, of course. Or was. Did you share it with your parents? And it was like. Don't be silly.
- [13:05]
A
Ah, yeah. So it wasn't. Oh, yeah, of course. But it equally wasn't at all. Don't be so stupid. It was. Let's give Isla this space. If. If that's what she's sensing, then that's what she's sensing. So I'm really grateful to my parents to really give me the space and opportunity to be in my. My imagination, my creativity, my connection in that way. And also with that, like, ever since I was a child, and they're still with me now, but ever since I was a child, I always had a wolf and a bear walking with me that were. That were big. They were bigger than what I was, and they were that real. And are that real that as a child, I assumed everybody else could see my wolf and bear and that everybody else had a wolf and bear walking with them. Now, of course, as I've gone deeper into this work throughout my childhood, into adulthood, I realized, oh, they're two of my power animals that really very much walk beside me that I can see. But when I was a kid, you know, you get told, oh, I'd like. We are generally asked as children, what would you like for birthday? What would you like for Christmas? You know, being really good this year, and every Christmas and every birthday, for as long as I was able to talk, I would always ask my wolf and bear to be real, but small enough so they could fit inside a pocket so that wherever I went, they could come. But that's kind of like, you know how. That's kind of how I live my life still. But that's. That's my imaginary. That's how creative my imaginary space is where I'm like, okay, my wolf and bear are huge. And although I could see them always, I couldn't. Like, I couldn't physically grab them. And I really wanted them to be solid but small so that, you know, they. They literally could fit inside my pocket. And so as a child, that caused a bit of confusion around, you know, my sister gets the things she asks for. I'm not getting these things. And yes, of course, I'm getting other things that I love and I've also asked for. But of course, when I got a bit older, I realized, like, oh, it's because it. They're real, but they're not real in terms of. We can't make them as a physical thing to. To make them a physical reality. But they are basically part of the unseen, so they're real in that way. And I, you know, continue to. To have them and work with them. So my parents were. Yeah, I didn't get chastised or shunned or told off, but yet there wasn't a. Like, oh, right, Isla's in the imaginal realms. Isla's seeing the unseen. So there was like, a support of neutrality rather than one end of the spectrum to the other.
- [15:26]
B
That's interesting. That's. You're probably one of the first people I've who kind of view the world the way you do that I've come across that kind of had the neutral one. You know, some people I talked to their parents were hippies and, you know, all over that stuff. And then some people were, don't be stupid, there's no imaginary whatevers. And then they've had to kind of unravel that as their life went along. But I don't think I've ever met anybody whose parents were, you know, supportive in a neutral way, like, oh, that's what. That's what. That's how Isla views the world. Okay, so it wasn't, it wasn't necessarily drummed out of you. So that's, that's interesting. So you ended up with a doctorate in conservation biology. What. What led you to that?
- [16:12]
A
Oh, you know, I feel it's just always been. Been in me, like, I. Ever since a child again. I remember this, like, my dad would catch me, I'd be watching wildlife documentaries of, like, you know, turtles being killed or eggs being stolen or bulls being killed, and my dad would find me in the lounge just crying. He's like, will you stop watching these things? Just crying, crying, crying. And so I feel it's always been in me to. For all of us to care about nature, about conservation. And so it really led me into this path of I want to understand more about animals, I want to understand more about zoology, I really want to understand more about ecosystems and how we're apart. So I've never considered myself as separate to the anima mundi, separate to the living world, but I want understand more about it so that. How can I teach, share, talk, promote that all of us as tribal people that are connected to the land, like we are all, we should all be conservation biologists in our own right, we're doing something and conversing to the land, protecting the land, hearing the land, caring for the land. We are the land's custodians in that way. But I really want to kind of get an education on that, to go deeper. And that kind of then led me in a path of I want to specialize in wolf conservation biology, which. That I ended up working with captive walls for a few years, but I didn't then go down the route of. Of a wolf conservation biologist because I guess my own soul had had other plans for me that's led me to this path of, of kind of where I'm at now.
- [17:47]
B
So all those things that I read out before your, Your bio, which ones of those would you say came first? So, you know, you ended up with a degree in conservation biology, but say, you know, like, say shamanic practitioner, soul activist, spiritual ecologist, you know, along during Your childhood before you went left school and went off to, you know, university to get a degree, were you drawn to those types of things as well? Or did that stuff sort of come later on?
- [18:22]
A
Yeah, I imagine the, the concept of a shamanic practitioner, whatever word, name, label we want to give it, like that's always been within me, which like mapping my life back has always been within me because I would go down the sandhills and converse with the earth, I'd have my wolf and bear power animals with me. From 8 years old I had this obviously not deep teachings, but I am, I had this understanding of the concept of the medicine wheel. I'm like, I know what the medicine wheel is. We use it to explore our life, to connect our life to. Although I didn't know the deep, deep teach things, I from 8 years old kind of did my own little kind of morning prayer for better word. But it was a prayer of connecting to the lands, connecting to the earth, connecting to spirit, connecting to nature, connecting to things that I can't even see in this realm. So I suppose that that has always been at the forefront, which again is I always say, you know, it's special because it's sacred and it's a privilege, but it's not special because it's in all of us. Like we all have this connection because we're all consciousness. But still with that, and I suppose with that of the concept of, of shamanism is it's a connection to land, it's connection to nature because I'm connecting to spirit and spirit. Nature is spirit, spirit is nature. So then my, my love for nature, for conservation, for getting people to really care, like this is also our family, like the trees are also our family, the tadpoles are our friends, the stones are our ancestors. So really it's kind of been a. But it's, it's all been connected.
- [20:04]
B
So as an 8 year old and you had these practices, did they just, did they just come to you, You know, intuitively or, you know, did you read something that suggested that, you know, how, how did all that come about?
- [20:28]
A
It's a really curious thing. So some, in part, some of it just came right because I'm an 8 year old kid, like I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like, I'm, I'm doing this because, well, it's normal and it's right and like why would I not do it? Because at that age I'm still, you know, I'm kind of moving into age where I'm starting To be conditioned of what's right or wrong, or you should think this and not think that, and that's good and that's bad. But I'm still also in the dream realm of the magic of life, of I'm being guided by my own soul and my own spirit, of how I want to converse and what I want to do and how I want to be. So I'm like, in that sense, like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I know what I'm doing in that way. And this is where it gets really. It's a really peculiar one. It's peculiar for our brain mind, our thinking mind, but again, in the expandedness of how life is supposed to unfold. I had. Do you have fake aunties? You know, fake aunties and uncles? They're not blood aunties and uncles. So one of my fake aunties, and they're always, you know, for me, they're always like, better Auntie Knuckles, actually. But my. One of my fake aunts, she was a neighbor that lived, like, a few doors up in our street, and she had some friends that came that were Native American. And I distinctly remember as a child, just, like, in awe, but I'm like, I know who you are. I know every word that they spoke. I'm like, I know this. It was like, as they were speaking to me, I'm just like, I'm home. Like, I recognize you. I know who you are. And it. And it's really funny because, I mean, I'm 8 years old, so I can't quite remember the things that were shared. But my parents, they can vaguely, vaguely remember them visiting, but not really much what we did. And I remember I spent a good few days with these two. There were a couple, husband and wife, but they were dressed in regalia, really. But I remember they were, like, speaking wisdom to me that in some way my thinking mind can't remember, but something was placed within me. And I've always held that as a. A really poignant moment in my life, but yet a recognition of, like, I recognize you as my people. Like, you're. You're making sense to me how you speak. And then from that, I mean, I remember what. Maybe I was 13 years old when I read Bury My Heart, Wounded Knee. Not really understanding, like, I was too young to really understand the. The. The torture, the sadness, the torment. But, yeah, I felt it. So in that I was crying, like, so much crying and reading this book, and that kind of took me on a path. Want to know more? I want to Know more, I want to learn more. I want to go deeper. I want to go deeper, I want to go deeper. So it's kind of again, been a, a weave of just what's come intuitive to me of like, this is normal to me, even though I'm not like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I feels normal. Meeting the, the two Native Americans. My first introduction, I guess, to, to two Native Americans. And then from there, this, these, this trail of reading, studying, learning, traveling, going. My first teacher in that sense was actually when I was, this was when I was doing my masters. And he's transitioned now, but medicine Grizzly Bear who was in California, Sir Bobby Lake Tom. So I then had correspondence with him. And this was in the really early days, right, where Internet was kind of new, emails were quite new. And so he was like one of my first teachers of kind of taking me deeper beyond reading the books. I kind of got to a point where, like, I'm reading and from that reading I'm implementing. I'm being guided intuitively what feels right for, for me, I'm dreaming. But I feel like I, I also want to meet a teacher that can, you know, take me deeper.
- [24:01]
B
So as a. Do you say you were 13 when you met these, this couple?
- [24:05]
A
No. Oh, sorry. No, I was eight when I met.
- [24:07]
B
Oh, sorry. The 13 was when you read Sorry, Bear My Heart at Wounded Knee and you said, you know, they were speaking wisdom and you were, you were getting what they were saying. Do you have a sense of like, were your parents in the room as well? And they were kind of like, that's weird, you know, like.
- [24:27]
A
Yeah.
- [24:27]
B
Do you get the feeling that you were picking up stuff that others in the same room were kind of like, these people are kind of strange.
- [24:36]
A
But anyway, and I wish I could remember and I, I, I just, the only. But I remember is I was going to say a lot of it. I don't remember how, how much time there was, but I distinctly remember there being points where it was me and them outside. So we were outside and they were, they were just sharing with me, talking to me, and it was just them talking to me. I do remember, like, at some point, I guess we were in the room with my parents, but whether that was general conversation rather than wisdom, like that part, I just don't remember. I, But I do remember being in the garden and it was just me. And if you've seen Mary Poppins, like the original, when she comes down the banister and she comes up the banister, sorry. And she's like, close your mouth, please, Michael. Not a codfish. Because he's like. And she closes his mouth for him. Like, I remember just being in this awe of, like, every word I understood, but I needed to hear. I needed to be reminded. And I felt in some way that was whether they recognized me in this way of a one that could receive, that could understand, that could. I don't know. I really don't know. But it was. Yeah, it was like medicine for me. I was like I was receiving medicine.
- [25:52]
B
That's so, you know, serendipitous that you are. You kind of have that bent about you. You have that way about you. And you're in. You're in. You're in England. And just down the street, this Native American couple who fully embrace that earth wisdom and want to share it with those who are ready to hear it just happened to show up in your life.
- [26:15]
A
I know. And it almost, you know, sometimes I have to go, am I making this up? And I know I'm not because it was, you know, my fake auntie, My fake Aunt Dorothy, who before then were like, you. We never even thought you'd left England, let alone left the country. But these were like, friends of hers. But she was, you know, in her 80s. We'd never even met them before, heard of them before. And then she was like, oh, no, my friends are coming up from Canada. And then there they are. So it is also a bit dreamy of, like, did that actually happen? And it completely did, but it's kind of also a bit crazy that. That it did in that way. Particularly, you know, an 80s kid. I'm growing up in the 80s and. Yeah.
- [26:51]
B
Do you. Do you have any. Did you ever hear the story of how your fake Aunt Dorothy knew these people?
- [26:58]
A
No, my mom and dad can't remember. I've asked them, but they. Yeah, they can't remember.
- [27:02]
B
Interesting. So then. So now you're interested. And it's. This is pre Internet, so you've gotta. You've got to do your own kind of research. You read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. What other sorts of things were you looking into at the time?
- [27:19]
A
Wow. So do you know, at that point, as a young child, like, anything and everything that I could on indigenous knowing way of life, living, connecting, like, I really. At that time, it was Native American and Aborigine, like Aboriginal art, the didgeridoo, the music, the connection, the understanding, anything that I could. So that's been such a long walk for me as well, of any bit of resource I Could get. I was, I was there. I mean, I remember just down. I've got it still. So one of my very first rattles. It's Navajo, but I got that for my 13th birthday. You know, my parents are like, you, you want that for your birthday? Oh my goodness, of course. Like, why would I not want that for my birthday? And so yeah, anything I could get my hands on that I could understand that would take me. Just give me like more richness into. I want to know more. I want to know more through it from a curiosity, but also just. I want to know more as a. Remembering this like this, this makes sense to me. It really, it makes sense to me. But I'm. I can't remember it and I want to be able to remember it.
- [28:28]
B
Wow. What about. Did you ever learn to play the didgeridoo?
- [28:32]
A
So yes and no. I've got my didgeridoo that I got for my 18th birthday is just in front of me. So it's behind my laptop. And that is. Yeah. From an aboriginal tribe. So yes and no. So I, I have got my didgeridoo, but I. Trying to master circular breathing, man. It's having my life and finding that really hard.
- [28:54]
B
Yeah, the circular breathing. You know, I've read that when you can master that circular breathing, it basically increases like your nitrous oxide in your blood. And the, you know what the sound of the didgeridoo is like, like it, it almost takes you places. But the, but the person playing the didgeridoo, I think that type of breathing actually sends you off on a journey as well.
- [29:21]
A
Completely. Yeah, it's like you go into a trance like state and I would call it non ordinary reality and all its state of consciousness where yeah, you're. Then you are in, you are in the unseen as you're playing it for sure. You're receiving as you're playing. Yeah. So that's my, that's my life's mission of like mastering that circular breathing so I can, I can play the didgeridoo.
- [29:42]
B
Well, have you, have you spent much time playing with it, like trying to remaster that circular breathing?
- [29:51]
A
So I, I do have moments so I can kind of go a few weeks where I'm doing solid blocks of like, you know, every morning for half an hour, practice, practice, practice, practice. And then, you know, my life gets life, things in life happen. And then I kind of like put it to one side for a while and then I hear it's called. Because for me, like it's alive. Like the, like I wanted to sit with it for a long, long time and just meet it, rather than going, right, I'm gonna pick you up and play you, because I bought you. I'm like, wow, who are you? And. And how do I honor you? How do I meet you? Do you even want me to play you? Like I've chosen you. Yeah, but do you. And particularly, I mean, this. Did you do? I mean, I'm looking at now, but it's, you know, it's. It's. You can feel it alive. It's got a lot of. It's. It's decorated. I mean, you can really feel how it's been decorated. The pride, the prayer, the. The focus, the intention of. Of what the didgeridoo offers. So for me, I'm like, wow, I really respect you. So almost like I'm. I want to be at a level where I feel worthy enough to play you. So, yeah, it's. It's a, A reminder for me to, to factor that into my diary, because I do. As I say, I go through pockets of weeks, weeks, weeks, practicing daily, and then it goes by the wayside. And probably then, you know, if I just kept practicing daily, there'd be a point where I'm like, oh, I've got it. But then I put it down for a while and then it's like, I've got to start again.
- [31:09]
B
I know a horse trainer from Shropshire who can play the didgeridoo really, really well. Oh, he can play it on a. You know, he can play a piece of PVC pipe and it sounds just like a didgeridoo. Yeah, it's interesting that, that, you know, before you even started telling me your stories, you, you know, I, I mentioned the Native American woman, Dr. Jessica White Plume, I had on the white. On the podcast. And then you. Then you've got the people from down the street from Canada, and then you are talking about the Australian Aboriginals, which I happen to be Australian.
- [31:44]
A
I know all these thoughts, right? All these, all these threads. There is no separation is just an illusion.
- [31:49]
B
Right? So early on, it sounds like, you know, you're a teenager and you. You're trying to read all sorts of books. Were there any of those, you know, did any of those books at the time give you, like a big perspective shift? Or were they kind of all just adding to things? Or did you read one that was like, oh, I can never view the world the same again.
- [32:14]
A
So, you know, it was. It was almost like the other way around of like, oh, I'm never going to be this. I'M never going to be this. So one of the first ones. There are two of the first ones that I really remember. Lewis. Oh, Lewis. Mil Madrona. That could be quite a mispronunciation. So coyote medicine. Coyote medicine was a big influence for me and as was medicine Grizzly Bear's autobiography, but that was in his book. So his story is about how he finds a traditional doctor. So like a shaman doctor. And because he was really, really sick, physically, physiologically, he thought he was going to die really early. He's like, there's. There's something wrong with me. And it's a really beautiful story because he goes to find the shaman in it. And for me, growing up as a child, like, they're the stories that I'd read. It's really deep about you're carrying something because you've, you know, you, you, you've done something that has, I'm going to kind of say, angered the spirits. But in terms of his culture, you know, you ate bear meat, which is a sacred animal, and you ate bear meat that was prepared by a woman that was on her mensahs, so on her moon time, on her period. Like, that is. That's disrespectful. We don't do that. So of course you've got these physical issues and. And he does. He describes meeting the shaman, working with the shaman. And the shaman was like, you know, two days ago before you arrived, I knew you were coming because I saw these two birds and these two birds and you were assigned to go. You're going to be trouble in that. You're going to be hard to doctor. You're going to. You're going to take a lot of my time. So I then have to consider, do I want to doctor you? Am I? You know, is it going to be. Because at this point, the, the doctor was. It was an old man. And I'm like, that's how I expect myself to be. Which, I mean, maybe I will be. I. I don't know, but I know I'm not. But that was kind of like the level of expectation I put on myself to then be like, so I'm never going to be like that. You know, I'm a white British woman living in the 1990s now in the UK. But that's why I expect myself of. How do I read these signs? And it's, yeah, a really fascinating book to. To go. Actually. Spirit is speaking to us all the time. It's just that we have forgotten how to notice those signs and read those signs and that was a fascinating book for me, just because of. Of the story of. Of how these different medicine signs that come in. Like, he got bitten by a snake, and that was snake medicine, but the snake is, like, the most poisonous snake in this particular area. And, yeah, it kind of brought me into this space of, like, that's how we should be. That's how I want to be. But I'm never going to be like that. Like, I'm. I'm never going to be able to read these signs. But it really also inspired me to go. But at least I can try, and I can do, and I can practice to a way that is, like, the best of my ability and also knowing my limits. But it was, for me, just a really fascinating book of how he describes this shaman just noticing the signs, and then he does this doctoring for him. And then, like, spirit bear comes in. And so it's like the spirit of bear comes into the house. But it's very physical and very aggressive and very, you know, he has to do a lot of work around it. And it's a real good understanding for me of, you know, how sickness, how being unwell does have not just a physical, physiological, or mental, emotional component, it also has a spiritual, sacred component that we are carrying from the things that we do in our life or that are done to us in our life.
- [35:49]
B
Yes. Dis. Ease.
- [35:52]
A
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
- [35:55]
B
So what was, you know, what was, say, your high school years, like? Because I can't imagine you're at school in the playground, talking about this sort of stuff to. To the other kids, you know, do you. Do you talk about this openly and you're the really weird one, or you kind of keep this to yourself to. To get along with everybody else?
- [36:18]
A
Yeah, so a little bit of both. So again, like, really, really young age, I'd be like, guys, let's go down the sandhills and speak to the stones and everybody like that. No, Isla. Because that's just weird. Like, nobody does that. And I'm like, you know, but we can go and speak to the stones. Like, the stones are really cool. Like, let's go speak to the stones. No, Isla. That's just weird. And so I kind of realized that what kept happening is you get that look. And then I realized, oh, that look is judgment. Or that look is like, are you crazy? Or that look is disapproval. So then I'm like, okay, I do this privately. I do this in secret. I don't talk about it because I'm not allowed. Or it means that there's something wrong with me. So, yeah, very early on in my childhood, there was very much the, like, guys, this is so exciting. Let's do this. Like, why would we not do this? But then. And still equally, that acceptance of, like, it's just Isla, you know, it's. It's just Isla's a bit crazy. It's just Isla. But, yeah, as I grew and certainly my teenage years, where more people are more interested in, like, you know, girls getting your eyebrows, like, plucked and let's now start to experiment with alcohol and, like, be all over the boys, I was like, okay, I can't talk about this stuff because I'm already, you know, a little bit different. And so, yeah, I'm going to, like, isolate myself more and more and more. But my, you know, my family, my friends, it really was going to the Sandhills. That's where I really felt accepted, welcomed. Like, this is. This is my family, this is my friends in this space along. I've got to say, like, it is a bit sad. Like, I didn't have. I have some lovely friends, but I didn't have many. And. And also, you know, I always forget this part of my childhood. So I'm 6 foot now and I'm 44, but when I was 9, I was 5 foot 11 when I was 9. And so. Yeah. Yeah.
- [38:07]
B
And wow. So you were not just the weird kid, you were the tall weird kids.
- [38:12]
A
Yeah, exactly. So that already kind of made me different, right? Like, because there was a lot of problem. Like, I always joke that I've got bus trauma, which I kind of have, because I'd get onto a bus as a child and be like, can I have a half into town? And they'd be like, well, you can get on the bus if you pay full. I'm like, I'm. But. But I'm a child. Like, I'm not paying full. And they said, you're a lie. Like, so everyone thought I was older than what I was, which caused a lot of problems because then there was the assumption I was all. Than what I was. And so Isla's immature. Isla's. So when I look back on my life, I'm like, yeah, these things happened because nobody even asked how old you. They just assumed how old I was because of my height. But I'm kind of, like, ostracized and kept out on the outskirts because of, you know, my height at that age then trying to kind of talk about these things. So I. I really. I really started to keep them as private and sacred. But what happened Was well, when I was seven, was my absolute best friend. Was. Was my first animal. So Snowy. That was who's a rabbit? So I always wanted a dog and fortunately I didn't get dogs. My parents were really hard, so that wouldn't have been fair, but they got me beautiful. This beautiful New Zealand white rabbit called. And as a 7 year old, I'm like, well, you're a mammal. You, you've got four legs. I can walk you. You could be my dog. You could totally be a dog. So I would take Snowy down the sandhills, right. Like not even on lead. We were just him and me playing together. He would hop off a little bit, I'd call his name, he'd hop back to me. And I mean, thankfully, because this is just a nature reserve, so it's not mine. Thankfully. I guess I lived in the area where there was less dog guardians than what there are now. But we'd meet a dog guardian and I'd either quickly pick him up or he'd go and hide some. Something drastically didn't happen that we may expect. Like he wasn't eaten by a dog, thank goodness. But it would then just be like me and Snowy down the sandhills a lot. Or my dad would take me down the sandhills and we'd do, you know the program the Crystal Maze. Have you ever seen that? We have it in the uk. It's kind of like this, this fun like game show that was in the uk. My dad would like take me down the sandhills and we play the Crystal Maze. And so I kind of had a. How do I fit in with people of my age? Yet I'm a little bit different. I'm also really tall and also I kind of have this way of being. And knowing that is like that, that's what I want to connect to that. That's what brings me joy, what brings me a sense of knowing, of belonging and connection.
- [40:44]
B
So when would you say was the first time you found another, like someone else who you viewed the world the way you did and you didn't have to hold back. Like you could be completely authentic about the way you saw the world.
- [41:02]
A
Yeah.
- [41:05]
B
Or have you ever.
- [41:06]
A
Yeah. You know, I was thinking, you know, and you know that in my animals, the very first one. So in Snowy, my rabbit. Oh, he gets me. Then in my wolf dog, Tunkasila, she get, she gets it, she gets me. So I. In terms of who was the first life form, I would. Well, even before that I would say, well, nature, the animals, the first human Yeah, I mean, other than the mentors that I've had that get it, that would be much, much later on in my life. That would probably be what happened when I was around 30. And I'm like, I'm ready now to go deep, really deep into. What is this connection? How do I connect deeper? How do I go deeper into the invisible realms, into the unseen, into the kind of this spirit connection? And so that was, I suppose, then really more my shamanic training, where you're kind of meeting those people that are having their own experiences but are kind of getting it, or you're able to talk about it without people going, yeah, what? Even though they might not have had the same experience as you. So I would probably say that happened in my 30s.
- [42:16]
B
Oh, wow. Much later on.
- [42:18]
A
Yeah, much later on.
- [42:19]
B
So tell me, after high school, you. You. You go. Where'd you go to university?
- [42:26]
A
Sheffield.
- [42:28]
B
So you go to university. What was it like? What were you studying there?
- [42:32]
A
Zoology. So my undergrad was zoology.
- [42:35]
B
Okay. Yeah. What was it like having this connection to nature and then studying zoology? And was there. Was there like a disconnect between what you knew and what these teachers and textbooks were telling you about the natural world? Did you. Did you find there was a disconnect there? Like, they'd say something, you'd go like, you know, under your. Under your breath sort of thing. Did you. Was there.
- [43:11]
A
Was.
- [43:11]
B
Did you have that disconnect?
- [43:14]
A
So it's. It's such a great question because I always remember, so when I was at uni, I'm in my room, and I. I mean, for many years, just in a way that felt right for me, I. I had a makeshift altar. And so again, every morning, I would say my own little kind of sacred prayer. And I was, at that point, I mean, from 12 years old, you know, I was. I knew what smudge stick was, and I was smudging, so I would be doing that. But because I kept it so secret, and really, at that point, I was very much into my thinking mind by then. Of. Like, this I do, but I keep it secret. But that's it. You know, I can't be no Bobby Lake, Tom. I can't. I'm a white British woman living in this era. Like, that's it. Maybe. Maybe in a time before. Maybe that's what it is. In a time before, I knew all of these things. And, okay, I honor that. Maybe in the future. But, you know, this is it for me now. And also at the same time, I was very much in my thinking mind, so I'm at uni going, I have to listen to what my peers tell me. What my peers tell me is right. I am wrong. There's something wrong with me. I'm not good enough. I now need approval. I now need to get top marks. I now need to impress. I now need to be good little Isla. Well done. You're deserving. And so it started in that sense to really spiral. And that's kind of. Yeah. Where the next part I mentioned came about this spiring of like, I'm not good enough. I don't deserve. And so I was really. I was more disconnected at that point and more shut off, but in that space of like, I need to be, you know, good little Isla. How do I get these marks? Marks make a. Marks mean that you're successful. Marks mean that you're approved. And, you know, I remember much, much later on in, like, my own kind of soul work I was doing, this question was asked to me about what. When we. When were you made to believe you were successful and how did you feel? And I'm gonna. Is it all right to drop the F bomb, by the way? I don't know if it's okay.
- [45:04]
B
You're British. It's perfectly fine.
- [45:06]
A
Thank you. So I literally wrote, okay, what. Where was I in terms of achieving success? And I literally wrote, getting my PhD. And I was miserable because. And I laughed because I'm like, I worked my ass off to get my PhD, and it's something that I loved. It was in conservation biology, but I was soulless. I was so disconnected. So I'm like, is this that. Is this what life's all about? Is this really it? And so I was miserable. I was confused, I was lost. I was really. When I was in academia, I was really separated because I was so conditioned. And even before that, you know, A levels, education, the thinking mind. The thinking mind, the only thing that's right is facts and figures and proof and. And evidence. And it really removed me from, like, the tenderness of my own soul was like. But that's just. That's just part of it. There's. There's also this part, but it was. No, like, that part's irrelevant. That's part's not true. That part doesn't exist. And so it really. It really cut me off for a while.
- [46:08]
B
Tell me about this soul work you did later on. What. What led you to that?
- [46:15]
A
So I was so. I kind of realized that through what was sharing about my family. So not my mom and dad. Mom that are beautiful people, but in both My dad's family and my mom's family and not my grandparents either, but we're kind of from a large family or were. There was a lot of disapproval. So, like, a lot of my dad's side, the family didn't like my dad. A lot of my mom's side of the family didn't like my man. Because you're, like, you're the daughter of the grand. Of the. Of the grand grandma that we don't approve of. And so I actually realized, tracking it back, that although I was loved by my parents, there is. There was always this holding of, I'm not good enough. My. If. If I was a good person, my family would love me. And like, they wouldn't. They wouldn't kind of shun me or show me disapproval, but, you know, I'd walk into a family party and instantly, you know that the eyes. The eyes looking up and down, I'm like, so if I was a good person, then my own family would accept me. And clearly they don't, so I must be a bad person. So I kind of realized that I held this echo of I'm not deserving of love. And that. That kind of. It chased me just, I'm not deserving of love. And for really, again, mapping it out, I'd wake up every day going, I'm not deserving of love. I'm not deserving to be loved. I'm not deserving of love. I'm not deserving. I'm not deserving. And so I ended up being in an abusive marriage. And so during that abusive marriage, again, like, in terms of what I'm attracting, of course I'm going to attract that relationship, which I now know, because I'm like, oh, I don't deserve love. Or here's somebody that says they love me, and actually they. They don't. But I'm. I'm like, oh, this is perfect relationship because I don't deserve love. And here's someone telling me that they love me, and what they're giving me is the love that they're not. They're not love. They're not deserving of love. So I was in this abusive marriage, and the first thing that happened was I. I went five days with a burst appendix, so I nearly died. Like, I. The. My. My abusive married husband at the time didn't care. Yeah, just. He just wasn't bothered that I was that unwell and didn't even think I was that unwell. So I went five days with a burst appendix and then basically got rushed to Hospital. Very, very close to death.
- [48:37]
B
You'd have been septic by then when you.
- [48:39]
A
Oh, I. Well, I was septic. My. My bowel perforated. I. Like, I was a mess. I was a complete mess. And that's where I had a near death experience. So in this near death experience, you know, it wasn't anything in that sense profound. It wasn't like, isla, you must go back to earth and announce this. It was. I was in this river of golden light. But whilst I was on this river of golden light, rather than the river, river moving, I was the one that was moving up it. And I distinctly remember going, huh, well, this is me dying. And it. It's all right. Like, it's. It's warm and there's nothing. There was like. There was no noise. There was no. There was just nothing. I'm just like, wow, this is all right. This is so peaceful. And then I heard the words, Isla, Isla, Islay. And so I came. I came back down into my body now, years later. So I was left with a lot of, like, scar issues. Scar tissue. I can every now and again have a flare up, but when the flare up comes, it's really painful for a good few days. And so I did a deater with a particular plant many, many years after. But I really wanted to be with this flare up of like, you know, for me, everything has consciousness, including each individual cell that makes us up. We can go to the conscious of that. So I wanted to go to the consciousness of my burst appendix. And so when I did, oh, the message that I got was, to this day, I could still ball, because it was. It was said with so much love and so much beauty. And it came from my body, which was, it was safer for you to die than stay alive because I wouldn't leave that abusive marriage. But my own body as a sacred vessel goes, you might not love yourself, but we do. So we're getting ourselves out of the situation if that means death. Because death isn't the end, it's just you're coming out of this body to go back to spirit. But you've been a body before, you might be a body again. But we. We're leaving because we love ourselves full stop, even if you don't. And I was like, that's so true. Like, it was safer for you to die than stay alive. And that was kind of. That message shared itself to me when I was kind of deep in my own soul work, I suppose. So I kind of was recovering from this burst appendix still in that marriage during that relationship. And a point came in my life where then I was. I was going to end my life. And like, I'm. I just. I like this, this marriage, this. This way of being treated is just awful. I just can't go anymore. Like, I. I don't know what to do except end it. That's. That's where I'm at now. And what stopped me was two things. So at that time, I had my dear wolf dog called Tunka Sila, who had been through a lot of trauma herself. So she was very, I don't know, some people would say reactive. I just say in that situation that animals struggling to cope. So she struggled to cope in many situations. And I was like, you know, if I take my own life, chances are her life's going to be ended as well. And that's not fair to me to do. That's just not fair. That's not right. And at the same time, as I was kind of contemplating this, there was a woodland. So at this point, now I'm living in Devon, and there's this woodland that I visit every day. And in this particular place of the woodland, there was a tree. But rather than growing up like a trunk would straight, it grew out in an angle. So when I sat on it, it bounced like a bit like a baby bouncer when we were a kid. And I would just sit on this tree and bounce and just get so much comfort. So this day I'm on this tree about crying like a proper Hollywood movie Bridget Jones movement. Like the snot, the tear, just like my life is done. I just. I don't know what the answer is. And then I heard as clear as day, you are enough. So much so, like I heard it in a human voice that I stopped crying immediately because I'm like, oh, my God, this is really embarrassing. The farmers behind me in his field, he. He's taken pity on me, seeing this woman cry. And let's just say something nice to her. So I turned around to expect to see the farmer. There was nobody there. Go back to crying. And I hear those words again. You are enough. And I'm like, what? Who's saying that? And then I'm like, it's the tree. It's the tree that's speaking to me. You are enough. And it wasn't like, you know, an epiphany. I didn't. In that moment, I didn't get, oh, this is. This is now what I have to do. But it was enough for me to feel something surge through my body, to go there Is something else. I don't know what that something else is yet, but there's something else because the Trida spoke to me. And I'm also not quite ready to take my life because that's not fair on the uncertainty of Tunqua Sida's life if I take my own and that. So then I, not long after that, left my abusive marriage. But that kind of started this soul work going deeper into like, who am I? What am I carrying? What is my soul work? What am I here to do? How the animal consciousness is speaking to me, what our animal friends are here to ultimately lead us into, started to then slowly reveal itself to me as well.
- [53:51]
B
Wowzers. Let's, let's back up a bit because there was a lot, lot going on there, especially the wolf dog bit. One question I had for you, and you don't have to share it, but I just want to know, yes or no, do you know what your grandmother was shunned over? Over.
- [54:10]
A
Oh, it's hilarious. I mean, yes. So this, this is, this is the hilarity of soul work. So. Well, I know some and I don't know it all because there was a point when my grandfather was dying, another story of a beautiful information of spirit. But when my grandfather was dying, he said to my mom, there's more to this than what you know, do you want to know? And mom was like, I'm done. Like, I, I literally don't want to know anymore. So I, I. There is an element of. My grandmother was engaged to another man, and then she met my granddad. Now my granddad was actually due to go to Australia, had the paperwork and everything. He was due to literally go to Australia to live. And he met my grandma, and my grandma left her fiance to be with my granddad, which, you know, in this era we're like. And, but in that era it would be like completely, you know, shunned, like, just not done. But, but, but much, much, much, much earlier than that, which we only kind of got told relatively recently, which I'm just like this, you know, this is, this is the hilarity, but the, the danger of a wound that is carried. So when she was young, she had her own wounds and circumstances that were, were horrific. And there was, you know, we're still, we still struggle to understand being trauma informed when most of us still aren't trauma informed. Now, way back then, we weren't trauma informed, but she was coming home, going home from school, and she witnessed someone get run over and, and die in front of her. She got Home to tell her mom, which would be my great grandmother. And her mom was like, oh my goodness, that's horrific. Go and tell your dad. And whilst you tell your dad, go and go and tell him that he's got to get ready for work. Yes, it's time for him to do his work shift. So she went into the bedroom to tell her dad, found him dead. So she's like witnessed two deaths in that same day as a young girl. And then because my grand was like one of 13, she now is my great grandmother's now trying to look after all these kids, which she can't do, so that the kids were shipped off to different relatives, different family. My gran was the only one that kind of got sent down like to Bradford area. The rest of the family kind of got to stay more local and she became the family she was in. Actually wasn't that. There was something a little bit unusual that kind of went on. So she played up, she was naughty as the word that would be shared. And then so she was brought back home and then she got like a job again. I think she was like 12 or 13. And then this is the hilarity. So a 12, 13 year old, like she, she stole something from that shop. I think it was a handkerchief. So she stole a handkerchief. But now we're fast tracking to this family that are in their 50s, 60s, that are like damnation and casting of shame onto you because you stole a handkerchief and you brought shame on the family. I'm like that. Have you heard it? Like, really? Have you heard the hilarity of that story? Like it. But that is the, you know, that's the danger of the wounds that we carry of, oh, no, don't like them because, you know, as simple as, oh, well, Warwick, you're wearing a cap. And I've been told don't trust people that wear caps. You're not very nice people. So I automatically hate you. Like that's where really it starts, which in one way is hilarious, but is not hilarious because that's how dangerous it is, just that simple. So that's kind of, yes. The biggest shame of like you were, you were engaged to someone that you left, but way, way, way before that when she was a kid. We're already shaming you because you stole a handkerchief life without going like, how do you feel that you witnessed two deaths in the same day? How do you feel separate from your family? Like, yeah, you know, these things that we, that we need to be sharing and talking about because they affect us.
- [57:59]
B
Yeah, that's the thing, you know, you're talking about soul work before, which to some people might sound like that's kind of a lot of weird stuff. But if you really think about that soul work, you were, you were, you were questioning the stories you had about yourself that had been, you know, drummed into you. And I really feel that one of the most important things in life to do is to understand why you do the things you do. Like the decisions you make, like, understand it and then you'll. You go underneath that and then you. Then you learn the stories you have about you, the things that, the self talk that you have. You know that that flies below the surface. You don't even know that. You don't think you're worthy or whatever. And then below that and below that. But I think it's. It's just unwrap, you know, I really feel like, yeah, understanding why you make the decisions you make and do this, make the choices you make. I guess soul work is a. A great name for it. But that, that, that might scare some people off, thinking it's way too deep. It really is just understanding yourself. I imagine I've actually eventually gets to soul work. Yes. But I mean, the first thing is, you know, why do you make those decisions? Why do you get mad when that person does that? Well, you know, what. Yeah. What are you. Why you emotionally charged about things and where does that come from? And that just leads into some inquiry. That leads into more inquiry. That.
- [59:43]
A
Yeah, yeah. And for me, that's how I see it. Of. You know, I'm. It's really. When we're in this space of soul work, we're beyond. Look, this is not about blame or shame or what did you do? Or judgment or. I mean, there is that space of I'm still healing from the traumas that I was exposed to being an abusive marriage. But the reality is that person that I was married to is that damaged that it makes him dangerous. So it's beyond being the blame, the shame, the judgment. But it's really going to what happened to you? What happened to you to be carrying these charges and then from a place of just naming them, being with them, not judging them, not shaming them, but feeling them when a charge rises. So one of the things that I share is when a charge comes, oh well, it's because they did this or that happened or my animal friend did this. Actually they are soul themselves bringing forward a medicine to go. The experience itself is irrelevant. What's relevant is the feeling behind it. Because that feeling behind it was there long, long, long ago, before that animal or that person or that work colleague or that family member, before they ever brought that charge up into you. What they're doing is actually in that moment, going, we're bringing forward this charge because we want the charge to be felt, felt, to be loved, to be heard, to be tendered, to be spoken to, to be discharged. Like, that's what the charge is. And so for me, that's what this. That's what the soul work is of. Like, God, what happened to you in that first moment? And because of that first moment, we're literally, we collect. Right. Or there's another one there. I've already been told I'm a bad person, so I'll take that one as well. Yeah, I didn't do that. So I'll carry that. And we literally carry these things. So then our soul gets forgotten. Our soul can't be brought forward anymore because it's the charges that we bring forward. And because then the charges are what we get used to, to make us safe, then that's what we throw out. Oh, this person's now having a go at me, right? Well, I need to protect myself. Oh, I want to do this, but what happens if someone laughs at me again? Or I better not. Oh, I'd like to say this, but someone might get offended, and then they're going to, oh, I better not. And that's why I call it soulwork. Because deep behind that, we are like. We are divine expressions of consciousness, just like our animal friends are. And for me, I really feel the very, very first thing that happens to us that creates this deep grief, this deep sorrow, this. This deep searching of. It's something. I'm looking for something, and I still haven't quite found. It is the very, very first time we were separated from Saul and we were separated from sacred because as genetically ancient humans, we know that we're soul, and we know that we are connected to sacred. But things happen in our lives that pull us away, pull us away, pull us away. And then we carry, like, we're just a big bundle of a charge that we carry, like a nuclear reactor waiting to go off anytime. But what we can do is be in that space of the invitation of like, oh, when I heard those words, when this person did this, or my animal friend did this response, this made me feel. And that's why, you know, Carl Jung, I'm sure it was Carl Jung that shared it, that in order to heal, we have to feel. And if we cannot feel, we cannot know. What is real. And so that's why we can sit here now and we can be talking about things and that can be helping us understand and get clarity and shed light on things physically. I could take you to, like, the sacred site of the stones I was talking about. But in terms of our. Our soul work, nobody can do it for us because we've got to feel. And I can't feel for you, you can't feel for me. And that's why it's scary, because it brings up stuff that we've never looked at. Or it's scary because I'm like, oh, I know. But if I talk about this, who's going to shun me? Who's going to blame me? Who's going to laugh at it? Who's going to tell me that I'm not allowed? Because it's bringing back our full self of what our soul is. Our soul knows you are perfect as you are. Like that tree, you are enough stuff. You were perfect as you are. How dare anybody else say otherwise? But other people do because they are carrying their own charges that they then put onto us, which is the very irony that we do to our. Our animal friends all the while. Our animal friends, like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're perfect as you are, just as we are. Come back to sacred. And so that's kind of like the full circle and the full cycle for me, which is why, for me, it's. It is the soul work, because it's coming back to sacred. And we can't think our way out of this. We can't bypass it, but we can't think our way out of it, because the thinking mind does not speak the language of sacred. And sacred doesn't speak to the thinking mind. Sacred speaks to the soul. It's, you know, it's feeling, it's texture, it's song, it's sensation, it's smell, it's not, how do I think my way out of this? So sacred and thinking mind, they don't compute. So we've got to go into the feeling, which is then making contact with soul. Michael Mead shared this beautiful description of the three layers of the human experience. So he shared, like, the first layer is the social layer. And the pleasantries like, hi, Warwick, how are you doing? Great. How's the family? How the horse? Brilliant. Are you going to go to that thing next week? Right, I'll see you there. That's the pleasantries, the social layer. Layer number three is this deep. Like, oh, my goodness, how long have I been Separated from you, it's the contact with soul and the contact of sacred. Now, to get from layer one to layer three, we've got to go through layer two. And layer two is the soul work. The anger, the grief, the jealousy, the rage, the bitterness, the shame that I'm not good enough or I'm too much or there's something wrong with me. All those things. And this is why in itself, it's a journey. You know, people we're so against, so conditioned to think in mind. Got a headache, take a pill, it'll go. Got a bad knee and it's swollen. Rubbing some cream, it'll disappear overnight. This is a long walk. This is a dance. This is an ebb and flow of I'm gonna meet you. That's enough now. Let me step away for a bit and I'm gonna come and meet you again. Each time, like you share more clarity, more clarity. I'm dancing a little bit more intimately. It's like our own soul is romancing us back to sacred ground. It's our own soul is saying, come and romance me again. Come and be in love with me, which is being in love with self.
- [66:11]
B
I am in, not in the middle. I'm partway through a process that I'm following in a book. Yeah, right now that I went to a men's retreat probably four years ago, and this book was like part of the homework afterwards. And of course I did a little bit of it and dabbled in it and didn't do it and whatever. And I have. Funny, my soul has finally got to the point where it. You have to do this work. But one of the things in that he. You get to the point to where. Thing, you know, you connected to your body enough to where things will start to trigger you. And the instructions are to basically don't take it out on the messenger. Like these people that piss you off and do things, they are the lesson. They are. They're bringing the message to you. And so you have to be in that middle ground to where you feel the feelings that they're bringing up, but you don't react to them because they are just the messenger.
- [67:21]
A
Yeah. And, and more than the messenger. I mean, they are the messenger, but for me, they're the medicine.
- [67:25]
B
Well, yeah, it's. Yeah, it's that too. But, but the thing is, it's, it's the, the instructions are that you, you cannot, you know, you cannot blame them. It's, you know, that. So, yeah, I, I, you know, I think there's. It's almost like, you tend to do one of two things. You don't feel the feelings or you react to the feelings, but there's the middle ground to where you feel the feelings and understand that the, you know, the message messenger or the medicine, whatever is bringing it to you. But, you know, there's that. That middle ground where you, you are feeling the feelings. And, you know, I've. I've spent most of my life being quite shut down not feeling anything, whereas my wife has basically felt everything. And for quite, you know, she's had quite a bit of anxiety stuff. And for a number of years, she was always looking for techniques to get it and not feel the feelings. But then she realizes the next level after that is to be able to feel the feelings and. And work through it. So there's you know, there's either the. Make it go away, so I don't have it, or there's the react to it, but then there's that, that middle path. That's.
- [68:45]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [68:45]
B
That's kind of where the healing happens completely.
- [68:48]
A
Yeah. For me, the middle part is like, catch the charge. Like when we're like, something in this moment, something is happening. And, you know, it's like in the movies, a nuclear reactor's gonna blow, we can catch it, or we get better equipped to go, oh, I'm just catching a charge. And okay, right now I'm driving in my car, so I can't be with that charge right now, but I can make a note of it. This is what the charge is.
- [69:12]
B
And then sounds like the book I'm reading.
- [69:14]
A
Oh, great. Did I write it? No, I'm joking. And then when we then have that space to be with it, we go to the feeling of the charge, which for me is like a conversation like, who are so. Because for me, everything is consciousness. So the charge itself is also consciousness. And so therefore it has a voice. So then we can be. Okay, if this, if this charge had a voice, which it does, what would it say and what would it need and how would it be? And this also gets to be a conversation that some of these charges, it would be like, oh, great, perfect. I've got. Right, it's gone. Some of the charges are so deep and so long and so painful and so scary that it, that it gets to be. Thank you, we've got somewhere. I need to end this conversation for now because I need to go back being a wife or a mom or a husband or. But we're going to come back and continue this conversation. And that's where we get More clarity, more clarity, more clarity. And that's where, for me, it's like, it gets softer. I never want to say, gets easier, it gets softer. We reckon, like, we recognize it quicker. We're like, oh, you're back again. Like I thought. Okay, what is it you need this time? Yeah. Okay, come in. Let's. Let's have the chat. And I literally. I mean, this is what I do. This space is my study and also my medicine room that when a charge comes to me, I will sit down and I will literally visualize it, feel it, sense it. It's in front of me. And I imagine, I'm like, look, here's a beer. Here's a packet of crisps. What have you got to tell me? I'm here now. I am so sorry that I wasn't there for you when you were trying to get me this, My attention. I'm so sorry. That wasn't this thing or whatever. I'm here now. And it gets to me. That's why I say it's always it's softer. Because when we're feeling it, it can still be really painful. But then, for me, the first victory is a recognition. You know, sometimes people come to me. I love. What do I do? What there's nothing to do? Because what's huge already is that you're recognizing it now. Like, in the past, what you would have done, you would have tried to start a fight or go home and cry. I'm such a really bad person. Oh, my. Nobody likes me now. You're like, no, none of that is true. But the things that are happening, the things that are showing up are showing up for me. Not to me, but for me as a charge that I'm carrying that was placed in me that is not even mine. That's not supposed to be in me. So how can I be with this charge and feel the charge and tend to the charge and nurture the charge until it gets softer and softer and softer, and it's. It then dissolves. And that, you know, requires different modalities, different practices. For me, that's the power of the ceremony. We go back to. We are genetically ancient humans. We are tribal people being tribal people with ceremonial beings. We know how to do ceremony. We don't know how to do algebra. Teach me. I don't understand that. We know how to do ceremony because we're ceremonial beings. That's. You know, when these really tough things came, that village, like we talked about, the village would swarm around us and plonk us in the ceremony to Go, don't talk about it. There's. You know, I love this statement from Miguel Rivera, who's a medicine man from Guatemala that he shares in his culture. They sing and dance and drum and rattle for 10 hours, and then they talk about it for five minutes, because what is done is done in the ceremony. They don't need to talk about it. But in our society, you know, we might sing or dance and drum for five minutes. It's not working. I'm feeling it. Or. But we talk about it. We don't stop talking about the damn thing, but we talk about it in a way that feeds it. What did they say? What are the. That's really. Well, I would. You know, so we're. We're. We're growing it rather than dissolving it, and we're growing it that is still fueled with hate or judgment or blame or ridicule or protection or feeling unsafe, rather than, how do we hold it? How do we. How do we really feel it? How do we nurture it, how do we tend to it so that it does get softer? And it gets smaller and softer and smaller. As I said, that's not to say some of these things will discharge and completely go. Like. We will laugh at the hilarity of, like, oh, my God, I can't believe I carried that for so long. It's hilarious. But some of these things are so deep from our life experiences, from the trauma from them, from, you know, past lives, from the things that we carry from our ancestors. They're so deep, you know, they've got really long claws, long roots within us that it's tending. Okay, how can I just pluck a little bit and pluck a little bit so they get softer so that when they come knocking again, you're like, oh, it's you again. Yeah, I know. You just need a little bit of understanding and support. Get. Come in. Take a seat. Let's go again. What you need. And sometimes, really, for me, that need is we go to ceremony with it. But that's often the challenge because we are ceremonial beings that don't live in a community that understands ceremony, that care about ceremony, that have the time. So then we're left stranded of, like, the talking isn't working, the therapy isn't working, these practices aren't working. They're just not deep enough because the ceremony takes us into the. The unseen landscapes of sacred. And these charges, they need to be discharged in the sacred landscape.
- [74:23]
B
You know, that approach is, you know, it's very much like, say, inner child work. Where you, you, you know, you greet your inner child like, hey, how's it going? What, you know, what, you know, a lot of those charges, I think, are from. From childhood things to where there was. There needed to be some protection at the time, and we no longer need that. But it's almost the same as, you know, I have. I've done some psychedelic journeys in a. In a healing setting. I've never done any for fun because they were never fun. But, you know, they say, you know, when, when. When scary things pop up, instead of running away from being scared of them, you kind of go, hey, what are you here to teach me? And it. And it changes the whole scariness of the, you know, the things completely different when you, when you approach with curiosity rather than fear.
- [75:29]
A
Yes, curiosity. You know, these beautiful concepts of the, of the child, of the curiosity, the childlike wonder, you know, children to a certain age. Which is why I love spending time with children and also animals because they don't label or define anything. They're like, oh, wow, what are you? Who are you? How do you make me feel?
- [75:46]
B
How do I.
- [75:47]
A
That's what I love about them. There's, you know, this, this share it, this, this teaching that we shared with me, which makes. Makes me want to cry every time I hear it, which is the moment we tell a child a blackbird is a blackbird, they'll never see a blackbird ever again. You know, I know. I work with animals. You with animals. The moment we are told, that's a horse, we actually never see that horse ever again. Because we are given a definition, a description, a label of this is what it can be, and this is what it can't be. Whereas before that, we're like, we're literally seeing it soul. We're seeing its spirit. And that's the landscape where our animal friends live, where they're like, okay, you're defining who I am. And although I'm in this physical form of animal that you've given me a word to, a name to, I'm still living with the dragons and my past lives and the spirit being that I am and, and all those things, but also when we are in the space of, like, when the scary things come, what that can also be particular in these spaces is. Have you come across the concept of the. The ego death? The death of the ego. That's sometimes what it is. It's the consciousness of the, the shadow parts of the ego that are showing in these spaces. And again, we can go, oh, no, no, I'm too. I Don't know what you are. Because sometimes they can show up in what we would say is a spirit form that was like, you know, it was like this really. Even scarier than the devil or this really expl. Demonic thing. But it's the shadow part of the ego going, actually, come and be with me. And when we can recognize it to go, oh, you're the part. You're like the. The conscious of death in the way of the things that need to die within me because they're not serving me, then we can dance with it. And so that's why even in these spaces, we. We can get tested. So we, we do need to be ready for them. Like, if we're not ready, then we're not ready. We. Again, we don't judge that. Like, I completely trust when these things land just because we're ready for them. But when we're in these spaces, we can. We can be with them and recognize them.
- [77:42]
B
Do you know who Charles Foster is?
- [77:44]
A
Charles Foster? I don't think so.
- [77:46]
B
I thought you guys are in the kind of the same area and the same. He's a. Maybe he's a trained naturalist or something or other. But he. He wrote a book called. He wrote several books, but one of them is called Being a Man. And the subtitle is A Hundred Thousand Explorations in a Hundred Thousand Years of Consciousness. But in that book. And then you wrote another book called Being a Beast, and it's about animals. But in that book, he lives in the forests of Northern England. I don't know exactly where, but that's what he's described, was. Described it as the forests of Northern England. And he lived like a hunter gatherer for like 10 or 11 months or something or other. So he, you know, he wore skins, he slept under bark, you know, he ate moss and he ate whatever, you know. And he said at one point in time he didn't eat for nine days. And when he ate, he ate a hedgehog. But he was saying that when you don't eat for nine days, you have visions.
- [78:45]
A
Yeah.
- [78:46]
B
Kind of a shamanic experience. But in there, he's talking about the trees and he said, you know what? I've never really seen a tree. As a matter of fact, it's been a long time since I've seen anything because I'm a trained botanist or whatever. He says, when I see a tree, I name the tree. I, you know, I know what type of tree it is. I know if it's deciduous. I know what kind of bugs live in the tree. I Know whether that tree, through the mycelium, supplies nutrients to other trees, or if it's like a black walnut, it sucks the life out of other trees. And I know all these things, but I don't really see. Because I know all these things. I don't really see the tree, he said, I once met a man who could see a tree and he scared me so much, I fled the temple, hitchhiked back to Kathmandu and took the first plane back to Heathrow. And I talk about that a lot with, like, trying to help people with their horses and stuff, because a lot of times they don't see the horse. There's. There's their hopes and their dreams and there's the breed and there's the this and there's that. They don't really. Yeah, they don't really see the horse. But anyway, when what you were just saying about seeing something instead of, you know, you don't see the thing, I just thought maybe you've read that. That book of Charles Foster's, but.
- [79:58]
A
Yeah, no, but it feels like I want to go and read it, but
- [80:02]
B
I don't think you need to because you're not going to learn anything. You already know this stuff. Let me look him up. I've got. He's a. Yeah, He's a British author, academic, veterinarian and a barrister, known for his unique blend of philosophy, natural history and anthropology.
- [80:26]
A
Yeah.
- [80:29]
B
He's famously known for being a beast, where he lived as wild animals to understand their sensory experience.
- [80:36]
A
Amazing.
- [80:37]
B
Yeah. So there's being a beast and there's also. There's also the other one called being. Being a man or being a human, I think.
- [80:51]
A
Okay.
- [80:54]
B
But it says many of his writings and religion have been attacked as heretical by conservative Christians, particularly in the us. I can see that it.
- [81:06]
A
But. But that's also, you know. Go into the horses. Oh, go. Oh, sorry. Go for it.
- [81:11]
B
I was just going to read this little bit before we finish it. It says as part of his philosophic philosophical investigations relating to authenticity and identity, he has tried living as a badger, an otter, an urban fox, a red deer and a swift, and has written about this in his book Being a Beast.
- [81:25]
A
Huh?
- [81:30]
B
Oh, he's written a lot of books, too. Well, and some of it's. Some of it's. One of his books is the Personal Injury Toolkit. So he's a barrister as well as all these other things. Fascinating human. But. Yeah, that. That book. Yeah, some of the things he said in that book have just helped me explain things to people. But that, that, that I've, I've never really seen a tree. As a matter of fact, it's been a long time since I've seen anything. Was a passage that really struck me
- [81:59]
A
like, yeah, and it's heartbreak, you know, it's. Well, that's, that's the sorrow of the heart right there. Because it's this, it's a separation from, It's a separation for the anima mundi. It's a separation of sacred and soul, of like how many times that we're walking the streets going, there's tree, there's a blackbird, there's a ladybird, there's a horse. Rather than going, what, what are you? Like, what if I was just visiting this planet for the first time? So I didn't know words or labels or have conditions about what you should or shouldn't be. Like, who are you? And for me, that's where all of the life forms live. Like, including our animal friends. You know, I always say, like with the canines, with the dogs, like a black Labrador is not running around going, oh, I wish I was a cocker spaniel and I wish I was chocolate rather than black.
- [82:45]
B
Right.
- [82:47]
A
This is, wow, this is me in this life right now. I wouldn't want to be anything else because if I was going to be something else, I would be it. You know, that's what they're asking us to do of like, come back and if you, if I was going to be something else, I would be something else. And I'm not. So I'm me yet with the only life form that is what. Oh, you know, I was, I wish I was a little bit smaller. I wish I was a little bit wider. I wish I had shorter. We're all, I wish, I wish I was this, not this. Whereas the animals, like, you're sacred, you're a tree's not going, oh, I wish I was the Hawthorne and not the Rowan that everything else is in that space of like, this is me and aren't I amazing? So, like, it's so, it's so true, but so sad of like, yeah, I kind of know what a tree is. And then I realized I actually don't. It's been a long time since I've, I've seen a tree. Like, hey, that just really is like, that's a soul. That's a soul loss right there. Soul separation.
- [83:41]
B
Yeah. I think I need to re. Listen to that book again. One of the things in your bio says you're an award winning author. What did you write? A Book about how many books have you written?
- [83:53]
A
Just two. One award in 25. So one of my books that's a medicine story won a silver award of the 2025 Nautilus Book Awards. And they're really simple books. In fact, like I wrote them, but I more co created them. So one of them is a book called Tuncasila's Teachings. Wisdom from the Canine Soul, Medicine for the Human Heart. And it's basically channelings from my wolf dog, Tunkasila. And so it's almost. Well, you can read it like a book, but it's also each. There's 30 channelings. So you can use it almost like as an oracle poll or you can look at like, like the symbol or a word of like the. The channeled message to go. Oh, what message? Oh, I mean she's in. She's still very much alive, even though she's transitioned. She is so alive. She's such a strong force of spirit. And so you can even hold the book and go, tunkasila, like I'm having a bad day today. What, what, what have you got to share with me? And so you can also read the book like that as well. So it's a book of her channelings for us as humanity to kind of come back into our. Our soul and sacred. And so that literally is from her. And then the other one is a medicine story that's called how the Canine People help the Humans return to ceremony. And this again, this was kind of co created with Tunke Sila, but with the animal consciousness, with the plant consciousness, with the star consciousness, with nature. And it's. It's a medicine story. So it's an adventure story. But like a medicine story has the, the mess, the message and the medicine behind the medicine story is this is real, like take the medicine. And so it is really about how we are connected to everything. We are connected to sacred. We are supposed to be in ceremony, but something happens to us as humans that made us separate from the ceremony. And all of life is going like, come back. Like, we need you to come back. You also know you need you to come back, but come back, come back. So it's kind of this adventure story that includes the thunder beings and the conscious of Nettle and the conscious of Mapacho and the conscious of the animals. And you can read it, but it can also be performed. It has prompts to an invitation of like, what. What do you think your sacred symbol is? Or what language would you be speaking? Or so I really love both books. Yeah.
- [86:22]
B
And they're they're channeled. So I, I had a British lady on the podcast recently who is also an author, and she wrote a book called the Horses Know. And it's a. It's a fictional. It's set in a dystopian future. But anyway, this, in the book, this horse is telling this young girl, like, deep wisdom. Yeah, like, like deep wisdom. And like the type of wisdom that you have to spend 30 years in a monastery in Tibet to kind of come across. And so I had this lady on the podcast, and I know she wrote a story where horses are sharing this wisdom. And I wanted to find out, how did you get this wisdom to turn it into a story? You know, did you spend 30 years in a monastery in Tibet or whatever? And it's just like you. She goes, no, my horse channeled it to me. So the story is not just about a horse giving wisdom to this girl because the story came from a horse to this lady. And she wrote the book and it was, it was just like what you're saying that, that she channeled it from an animal?
- [87:34]
A
Yeah, because they know our animal friends, like, this is how I see it. This is how they share it with me. They show it to me, is like everything is an expression of consciousness, including us. So our animal friends, although they're in a physical form of horse, dog, cat, gerbil, whatever name we give it as that animal, they are an expression of consciousness. But they haven't separated from sacred, they haven't separated from soul. They haven't separated from the entirety that they are. So they don't know, oh, I'm a horse and all I should be doing is jumping over this when you tell me to jump over and eating this over here. And they're full of wisdom because they're source consciousness. And so when we are in this space with them, they know that we're hurting. So yes, an animal may be in trauma, they may have pain, but in their entirety, they haven't separated from themselves. They haven't separated from sacred. So they, like, it's for us as the humans are like, guys, like, your hearts are hurting because the only place an animal lives from is from their heart. They don't live from the thinking mind, thank goodness they have a thinking mind. They have a brain so they can problem solve and, and work things out and learn and. But they are, they are. They're purely, fully in their feeling. And so that's why they don't, you know, an animal, a horse is not going, oh, I want to do this, but Are you going to get offended? I better not say it. That's what we do. And that's why sometimes we can, you know, that's one of the reasons why we love them so much. Because actually their reflection of that inner child, their reflection of the innocence that we were when we're child of like, the horse is like, this is the, this is how I feel. This is, I'm going to express it. The dog. This is how I feel. This is how I'm going to express it. So we love that innocence of like, oh my God. God, you remind me so much of me when I was carefree, when I didn't know about being chastised or being right or wrong or not being good enough for being too much. And then that's also consciously or unconsciously the reason why we can get frustrated with them because we then say, consciously or unconsciously, I wasn't allowed to be me, so neither can you. So this is what I'm going to make you do. This is how I expect you to be. This is whereas all the while, because our animal friends are expressions of source consciousness, they're going, no, no, no. We're also here for you to see this charge. So that's why they know your heart is like, guys, your hearts are hurting. And we are here to support you in healing this heart that hurts by going into the charges, by going to the feelings that our animal friends also show up for us so that really we live from an awakened heart. Like, that's where they want us to be back into of like, just, just come and like, come again. Come and remember what it's like to just be five minutes in your awakened heart. Remember what it be in this space because that's, that's who we are and that, that's what we are. And that's why when we're in that space, we can pull into and tap into this innate wisdom of like divine spirit guides, divine ancestors, which is who they are as well, with this wisdom. They really are these wisdom carriers. And so all the animals are holding it, all the stars are holding it, all the trees are holding it. But it's our, our mission to, to drop back into these spaces so we can be like, huh, what, what wisdom do you have for me? For me personally, or that I can, that I can speak, that I can share.
- [91:00]
B
Imagine the captive wolves help with that. How did you get involved with captive wolves for three years?
- [91:06]
A
Yeah, this is like the, the best time of my life and the worst time of my life. So I'd at That point I was towards the end of my PhD, so I had my wolf dog, Tunkasila, and
- [91:17]
B
tell us, what is a wolf dog?
- [91:19]
A
A wolf dog. So. So you have certainly in the uk. Well, I think it's the same in the States. So you would have what's called, in terms of the generation, an F1 would be a pure wolf crossed usually with like a German shepherd or a husky or a malamute or some sort of. Of a northern breed. So that's classed as your F1. And then you would.
- [91:39]
B
So the offspring of that is an
- [91:41]
A
F1 is an F1.
- [91:42]
B
Okay.
- [91:43]
A
So it's classes a hybrid.
- [91:45]
B
Okay, so it's a wolf cross with something that kind of looks like a wolf. It's not a wolf and a beagle.
- [91:50]
A
Well, I mean, there are some. It's not a wolf and a beagle. No, but that could, that could actually still happen.
- [91:56]
B
Yeah, but I mean, but you know, if you think about a husky or a German shepherd or. Yeah, they kind of look, look a little bit that way anyway. Yeah.
- [92:03]
A
Yeah. So that's kind of classed as a hybrid. And then basically, okay, you may cross an F1 with another dog or an F1 with an F1. And so you're kind of diluting the strain down of the wolf content until you kind of get to a wolf dog. So it's had, it's got wolf in it, but it's not as high a wolf content as like an F1 or F2, F3, for example.
- [92:24]
B
Oh, so there's far down. Okay, so if you think about an F1 is 50% wolf.
- [92:28]
A
Wolf.
- [92:29]
B
So then an F2 would be 25 wolf.
- [92:33]
A
Yeah, you know what I mean? Theoretically speaking. But this is where the genetics gets really. Like, the genetics is really weird. Then when you kind of breaking that down, it's, it's something that I just,
- [92:44]
B
I'm just wondering how far away from wolf is a wolf dog?
- [92:47]
A
Like, is it 10, like Tungas. So Tunka Sila was F. She was F4. So as you work the generations that. So she was fourth generation from that, from an original wolf cross with a dog.
- [93:00]
B
So 50, 25, 12. So I'm thinking 6%.
- [93:06]
A
So like, you want to get. This is what she. That was her and her.
- [93:11]
B
Okay, she still looks like a wolf.
- [93:15]
A
I mean, she looks like for, for me, I can see a difference. But if you don't, if you don't work with wolf dogs or wolves, you're like, okay, that's a wolf. Yeah.
- [93:23]
B
And so how did. So you said that you're working with these captive wolves for three years. But you already had Tunker Sila. How did you end up with her?
- [93:30]
A
How did I what, sorry?
- [93:31]
B
How did you, how did you. What was your introduction to Tonka Sila?
- [93:35]
A
Yes. So I was, I was. Towards the end, so I was kind of completing my PhD and at that point I'm like, right, this is the rest of my life now I want to be a wolf conservation biologist. So at that point I was. Because I was at uni, I literally read every paper I could get my hands on while I was at Unique because you have access to all the journals, right? So everything from wolf behavior, wolf ecology, wolf mythology, wolf symbolism, like everything to do with wolves. I like just couldn't get enough of it. And then I was really curious about this concept of a wolf dog. And the reason why I always wanted to live with an animal, even when I was a child and then certainly now when I'm like, do my PhD is it wasn't about, oh, I want a dog to live with, to tell her what to do and to be a dog. I was really curious to know what it's like to live with another animal that's not human. And like, how do they see the world, how do they process the world? What can they teach me? And then it would just so happened that I just so happened, you know, the, the synchronicity of it was supposed to happen that I came across someone like not that far away from where I was living at the time that had. Had had a litter of wolf dog pups. And that's kind of where, yeah, where I met Tunka Sila, how she came into my life. Life. And at that time, that's when I was then wanting to be a wolf conservation biologist. And this was also, again, the part of you're not good enough. Because I'd finished my PhD, you wanted to be a wolf conservation biologist. So I'm granted my PhD wasn't in Wolf biology or ecology or conservation, it was just in conservation biology. But I applied for around like 15 postdocs. I got interviews for 10 postdocs. And at every interview I was told, can't fault your interview, can't criticize your interview, can't even tell you where you can improve. We just gave the job to someone who had more experience. And so of course I'm already holding. Because I wasn't aware at the time, I'm already holding this. I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough. And I'm like, right, well, I've got a PhD and I'm still not good enough. So I became really depressed. Like, really just like, what's the. Like what is the point of doing, you know, told. Go to school, get an education, work really hard. The highest qualification of the land. Which just makes me laugh now. The number of times I heard that, I'm like, it actually really doesn't matter. So many other things in life that are more important, but I'm still not good enough. And then through then my connection with Tuncasila, with the wolf dogs, I found like a wolf dog breeder and. And that ended up, like, I ended up meeting someone and then working with the wolves, but then that was. They became my abusive husband. So it's like the best time of my life, but also the worst time of my life. A very well, a part of the soul work that I was, you know, without it, I wouldn't be where I'm at now.
- [96:19]
B
Did you, I might have this wrong. Did you meet your husband through the wolf dogs? The abusive husband?
- [96:27]
A
Yeah, through the wolf dogs in the wolves.
- [96:28]
B
Oh, wow. Okay. They, they, they led you to him to. Obviously you had to. You were supposed to meet him and go through that to come out the other side.
- [96:40]
A
Yeah, completely. Yeah. It's like, you know, it's. I call it the Awakened Warrior, but it's that classical wounded healer. Like, yeah, if we didn't go to our lowest of, lowest of low that I don't want anybody else to go because I know what it's like. But if we don't get there, then, like, it's almost like we have to get to that precipice to go, there is something else. Like, I'm, I'm done. I'm. I'm. I'm done living this way. I'm done believing things about myself. I'm done people treating me this way and that. That's where our medicine gets awakened. And then we start to work with our medicine, which massively includes us to do our soul work. That's what I'm really aware of in many spaces now that we are. And these spaces may be being held or made or created, but we have to put our hand up to go, I also have to do my own soul work. We can't do these things without looking at the things that show up in ourselves.
- [97:30]
B
Well, so cool. I'm going to get to your. The questions you chose now.
- [97:35]
A
Okay.
- [97:36]
B
And the first one is, what book do you recommend the most? Not necessarily your favorite book, but ones one that you recommend to others. And if you have More than one on all ears.
- [97:50]
A
Yeah. I mean so whilst this is my medicine room, it's like, it's, it's also a library. Like I am surrounded in books because these books also my medicine. So I feel like as I'm here, I'm just staring at them and I'm like, it's just, just, oh, I'm, I'm receiving from them as I'm just in this space. So I really love this question because it was really difficult for me because I'm like just one book and I, I mean there's so many. I can list of many, many different ways, but in this moment the one that is, is not necessarily like my favorite or a go to but I'm like, actually it's so beautiful. It's by Anita Muajani and it's called Dying to Be Me. And it's a really beautiful book because it's just so relatable, like has. I mean I don't want to give too much of the story where people want to read it, but not, not too dissimilar to like, oh, how my near the near death experience was about, you know, love yourself. My own body wanted to love itself or loves itself more than what I did. She had, she got a cancer and she basically had a near death experience from that cancer. And she got a message very similar of, you know, love yourself. But she shares from her childhood. How so? She was born like, she's Indian and so she was born into a family that is a particular. Like this is our Indian culture, this is what we expect. This is how you expect you to be. And she was, you know, again, someone may say rebellious, but she was like, I don't, I don't fit into society. I don't, I don't, you know, I don't want an arranged marriage. I don't want this, I don't want that. And so it's kind of like all the things that happen to her to make her realize there is something wrong with me. I'm not good enough. And so I just feel it's such a relatable book because in this era, who isn't walking from a charge or charges in some way? Who isn't walking from a hurt or hurts in some way. So it's a real, you know, it's a real deep book in that way, but a real nice read that is really relatable and just so true of like, like God, I am just dying to be me. And that was like her message from her soul of like, just be you like not what people expect you to be or how they expect you to be or what you think you should be for them, just be you. So it's. I really love it as a book.
- [100:07]
B
I just looked it up and it's on audible. It says. In this truly inspirational memoir, Anita relates how after fighting cancer from her four years, her body began shutting down. Overwhelmed by the malignant cells spreading throughout her system as her organs failed, she entered into an extraordinary near death experience where she realized her inherent worth and the actual cause of her disease. Upon regaining consciousness, Anita found that her condition had improved so rapidly that she was released from the hospital within weeks without a trace of cancer in her body. Wow. Yeah, I mean, I, I'm really of the belief these days about, you know, the, the thing about disease being dis ease. You know, I mentioned that before. Yeah. Wow. Do you have any. Sorry, go ahead.
- [100:59]
A
It's a disturbance. I mean, that's exactly what it is. It's, you know, in my PhD, Conservation Biologist, Conservation biology. It's looking at ecosystems. We are an ecosystem as an individual, connected to the ecosystem as a whole. But there is a disturbance in our terrain, there's a disturbance in our ecosystem that when an illness comes, there is a physical component, a physiological component, a mental, emotional component, but there is a spiritual component. And very, very often that physical manifestation of the dis ease is created because of the spiritual component. The things that we are not listening to, that we say about ourselves that we deny. And we can even then go to the consciousness of, you know, an injury to a shoulder, an inflammation of the knee, a cancer of like, what are you? Who, who are you? What are you trying to, to get me to understand? And so, yeah, I very much feel like that's the, the disease now, even when I'm, you know, starting to feel unwell. I'll change the wording. Go. Huh. My body knows there is a clearing out needed. So it's clearing out that's making me feel unwell because it's trying to get me to go, stop, stop, stop work, stop life, just stop and be with me right now. And so I'm like, oh, I'm feeling unwell because there's a clearing out needed. So let me, let me be with the intelligence of my body, the consciousness of where I'm feeling unwell.
- [102:21]
B
Yeah, I'm really, I'm really of the belief of that these days. Do you have any other books? I know you've got a lot that you'd like to recommend. Like what's your, what's your number two.
- [102:31]
A
My number two. Have you heard of bread and sweetgrass?
- [102:33]
B
Yes, I have it right here. Shelf. Yeah.
- [102:36]
A
Yes, definitely. Bread and sweetgrass. I love, like, every word is almost like a spell in itself. I really. Yes, it is.
- [102:45]
B
Yeah, yeah, no, that's. That. That one has popped up before from different guests. Okay, so if you could spread a message throughout the world, one that people would listen to, what would that message be?
- [102:58]
A
Oh, yeah, I feel like we've already talked about, but let me drop it in a nutshell so it's heard. And let's be in ceremony through your awakened heart. Really simple. And there's a statement that came to me a long time ago that is, I teach to raise the vibration of the planet, guided by my respect for all of life, to bring more ceremony into the world. And for me, that's what we're being called to, is we're ceremonial beings and what we're longing for and what's missing is the. The medicine of the ceremony and. And our longing for ceremony. So, yeah, find, make, be, do whatever, practice ceremony to awaken the heart and live for an awakened heart.
- [103:43]
B
Very good. What's an unusual habit that you have or something out of the ordinary? And I don't know if this. The unusual part of this is you think it's unusual or other people would think it's unusual, but anyway, what's your unusual habit?
- [103:59]
A
Well, I have two, actually. So the one that I think is unusual, but it's not that unusual, like, is that I'm so bad at it, but I. I do kickboxing, so I'm not a kickboxer. So many people are like, you're a kickboxer? No, no, I'm not a kickboxer, but there's something about kickboxing that I guess there's a. It is more a martial art. So there is something about it that brings forward this sense of presence, of paying attention, of discipline, of feeling. But there's just something about kickboxing that for me, like, loads of people are like, isla, you do kickboxing, but isn't that quite violent? Doesn't that quite hurt? So there's that. And also what might be a little bit more unusual for people, which I love, and though it's also becoming a big thing now, is that I'm a firewalker, so I hold fireworks for people to, as well as. As an example of ceremony for them to. To go into.
- [104:50]
B
Really?
- [104:51]
A
Yes. And I love it.
- [104:53]
B
And how did you get into the fire? Walking.
- [104:56]
A
So I love this question. So the Fire. The fire told me so. For two years before I re. Listened to it, the fire was like, we're to work together now. And I'm like, oh, no, no, no. I respect. No, I respect you too much. I'm not. Who am I to work with you? No, no. For two years it was like Pac man chasing me. We're to work together. We're to work together. And then I eventually went, all right then. And so I.
- [105:21]
B
Was there a thing, was there a thing that made you go, all right then? Because it's almost like, I think, I feel like the universe, if it's trying to send you a message and you don't take. If you don't pick up the message, it'll send you the message in a different way that you will listen to. Did you. Was there something that come to you a different way?
- [105:37]
A
So I really get what you're saying when it's like, okay, there's. There's medicine coming. And it's like, if you. The universe will just keep shouting at you louder until you get it. It. But with this, it was just, it was almost like the fire knew, like, she'll. She'll fold. She'll fold. And so not, not that I remember. There was just a day when I'm almost like, right, I'm ready now. Like, I'm okay, I'm ready. Like, let's just explore. And when I was training, you know, I, I got there on the Friday night, training started on the Saturday. And I literally, on the Saturday morning was just like, now I'm going home. I'm con. You know, who am I? Like, I'm not, I can't. I'm not. I'm not ready to work. Who am I? And the fire just went, you sit your ass down and let us have a conversation. And it just shared this. I mean, the way that I teach a fire walk is actually through a day. It's a one day ceremony called Conversation with Fire. I didn't create that. The fire said, this is what we're going to call it. This is how it's going to be. This is what it's going to include. It then shared a song with me. Like, this is the song we're going to sing. And so I was just like, you know what? I am terror. A little bit like we said about the fear. I am terrified. I am completely terrified about this. But okay, if you trust, if you keep telling me, then we're gonna do it. And so, yeah, the fire. That was the fire that, that kind of brought me to the fire and. But now I love it. I love bringing people into ceremony with the fire.
- [106:52]
B
Were you terrified of the position or were you terrified of the firewalking?
- [106:59]
A
Actually, no, I wasn't terrified of the fire walking. It was not, it wasn't the firewalking. It was, it was the respect that I have for such a powerful element of fire. Not just in its teachings of what it represents from a tribal shamanic, whatever word. We want to give it perspective, what it represents. You know, the. Am I like, how do I even control a fire? Like it was that just like, I'm not good. I'm not good enough for this. I can't. I'm not good enough for this. But yeah, I'm a fire walker. Yeah.
- [107:36]
B
So when you do one of these one day things, do you have to kind of get the participants into a, I don't know, a certain mental state or.
- [107:48]
A
Yes. So there's a, there's a principle. So it, for me, it's like a gradual, but a little bit like a roller coaster. So we're like a gradual build. A gradual build. We're connecting with the element of fire. We're connecting to the spur of fire. We are receiving information, you know, for me, because the fire will always give us what we need. The fire is like nature is. Fire is one of our greatest teachers. But also it's a representation of how is our inner fire like? Is it literally an inferno burning out of control? Is it like an ember? Is it also, in terms of the firewalk, what I love so much? There's a saying. There's a beautiful poet called Andrea Gibson who sadly is transitioned. And in one of her writings she shares the moment. I realized the storms were inevitable. I made them my medicine. And that's kind of what the fire walking represents. We, we carry storms in our life. We carry real fires in our lives, but we can overcome them. And so we can be with the fire of going, like, how is my inner fire? Am I, am I living for my spirit fire? Is it out of control? Is it dead? Do I need to start that? And then we do some work out on the land. We go into ceremony. And for the fire walk, the, the offering is that our energy needs to match the energy of the fire, if not be bigger than it. So we're really calling in actually fire energy, fire spirit to then be able to, to walk the fire.
- [109:12]
B
I had a podcast guest who did a firewalk one time at. Yeah, you know, it's like a personal growth sort of a. Huh Thing. But she said that, you know, they get into this kind of certain mental state, and then it's the last thing of the day, and they walk across the fire and didn't feel anything or whatever. And her husband was with her, too. He did it. And anyway, they go to get in their car to leave, and there's a lot of people at this thing. It's a big event. And so when they. And so she's still in that. Whatever that mental state was, and they're trying. They're pulling out of the car park, and it's kind of like, you know, a zipper. Like, one goes, the other one goes. One goes. Anyway, someone cuts in front of them. And she said she went to. She kind of. Her mental state changed to, like, anger. Like you asked, what are you doing cutting in front of me? And she said, all of a sudden my foot was burning, and I looked down and I had a coal stuck to the bottom of my foot that I could not feel until I felt anger. And when I felt anger and I lost that state that I was in, now my foot's on fire. Yeah. Yeah. So you said it brings out your inner fire. But let's back up to the kickboxing.
- [110:23]
A
Yeah.
- [110:23]
B
Because I feel like they're the. They're similar. Like, do you. Do you. Do you feel in that kickboxing that you. That you connect with? Like, you're like your inner power, your true raw power when you are doing that. And did you feel like you. And my other question is, did you feel like you. You did not have a connection to that before the kickboxing?
- [110:48]
A
Yeah, it's such a great question, actually, because there was something about, like, oh, you know, I want to try kickboxing. Like, I'm. My health's important to me. I kind of, you know, hate exercise, but at the same time, love exercise. I was like, well, I've got. I never. I love you knees. I really love my knees, but have bad knees. And I was like, you know, we'll give it a try. And I'm actually quite an anxious person. So I was very, very nervous for a long time going to these classes. But for the first three months after I would get home from a kickboxing class, I would cry. And my. My husband now would be like, it's like, do you know what? I'm fine. I'm absolutely fine. This is a release of trauma.
- [111:26]
B
That's why I was asking you about the kickboxing.
- [111:28]
A
The first thing I would not. Was not even contemplating. You know, I'm going to this space for, like, I'm gonna learn something. I'm gonna get, you know, bit fitter, a bit stronger. But I'm now moving my body, like, because we stole trauma here. And also, like, very. Because of the burst appendix. Because of. I probably talk for the time now, but, like, marital rape, that's really what it is. I'm very. Like, nobody gets here. And now I'm literally opening my hip flexors, and I could feel, like, this gush of energy, and I. I could literally. I mean, I'm in now the kickboxing class, and I can feel it. I'm like, don't. Don't lose your here, because these people don't know you. But fortunately, I was in a place in my own soul work to go. I know what this is. So I wasn't panicked. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I'm scared. I'm like, wow, your trauma being released. So for the first three months, that's really what was about. Of, like, I'm going and I need to get home and cry for 20 minutes just for this trauma to be released. And now there's that conversion of. Yeah, I'm. I'm. It really works on the energy center, particularly the lower energy centers. That power center of this is where I'm pulling it from. I'm really working with the power center because you have to use your core through the movement. I'm still. I mean, I'm not very good at it because I'm 44 now, and I only started three years ago. So there's a lot of my physical body that is quite rigid and stiff and can't do certain things. But.
- [112:48]
B
But is it really about being good at it?
- [112:51]
A
No, no. I'm not doing it to be a fighter. I'm not doing it to come. I'm not doing it like, oh, I'm a. I'm. I'm doing it for very different reasons.
- [112:59]
B
Yeah. You know how you said, oh, I can't. I can't cry here. I guarantee you, if you talk to the teachers there, that it's probably quite common, people getting in touch with that part of their body. There's a thing that my wife does called sacred rage.
- [113:23]
A
Oh, yes.
- [113:25]
B
And I imagine that the. The kickboxing would be. Do you feel like the kickboxing helped you release, like, some inner angst and rage that you'd held in there for a while?
- [113:38]
A
Yeah. So I feel so, yes. However, before I started the kickboxing, a good few years before that, I'd started boxing, and definitely the boxing did that the boxing, really. Because, you know, it's. Discipline is a techn. But you're in your breathworks year. You're. When you're doing punches and things, it's really helpful to breathe and really, you know, push out that breath. So for sure, it's. It's not just. Yeah. It's not just an exercise or a way to get fit or to move your body. There's. There is this beautiful sacred connection to something like boxing or kickboxing or I suppose, any martial art. Even if the. The holding of. Of the discipline, of the origination of that martial art has disappeared, it's still held as a consciousness because that's not, again, not only just about defense, but there was also a discipline and a sacred connection to it as well.
- [114:34]
B
Yeah, yeah. I thought that might be a part of that, but yeah. So it's, you know, the kickboxing and the. And the fire walking are probably not that far apart that.
- [114:45]
A
No. No. One's One's more sacred and physical. One's more physical and brings forward the sacred without you realizing.
- [114:52]
B
Yes, yes. What have you changed in the last five years that has helped shape who you've become?
- [114:59]
A
Yeah, two things. So absolutely moving from a I'm not deserving to wow, I'm an embodiment of love. Like, I am such divine love that that's where I check in on myself at. That's where I call myself out. That's how I. I see things in life. And with that, how that's opened me up to this deeper soul work and largely saw my connection with ancestors. It's. It's something that, like, I haven't really grasped or understood until relatively recently, the past few years. And it's also because I read something many years ago at the time didn't make sense to me. So I don't know about all kind of indigenous tribes that are living to this day, but I know in some African tribes, they have what's called the house of ancestors. So if something happened, like, I don't know, such and such has happened, I'm really sad. I'm gonna go around my village and get support from them, but I'm also gonna converse with the ancestors on a regular basis. And so in those communities, they're like, are you crazy? What do you mean? You don't converse with your ancestors? Like, there's a whole host of family there that have information for you that you're just not sitting with. Whereas in our society, we're like, what you mean? You speak to your answer. You're crazy. And so really moving into my ancestral work over the past few years. But that coming through the, this, this real deep soul work of I'm. It's not about adore me, look at me, I'm gorgeous, I'm attractive, love me. It's know me deep in my core. Like, I, I am love. I am divine love. And so really deeply moving from as I say that, that, that lack of. Deserving of love to like, well, I am, I am just love. I am just an expression of that.
- [116:48]
B
Wow. Is this, what is your relationship like with fear, senior firewalker?
- [116:58]
A
Oh, man. Piece of piss. I'm joking. So I really love this question because my relationship with fear now is completely different to how it used to be. So now if a fear comes, which you know, I'm. I'm still on this journey myself. If it comes, I'm able to catch it and I go, okay, who are you? So I, rather than running away from it, I go into relationship with it. I'm like, what? What are you?
- [117:24]
B
It sounds like the, the directions for an ayahuasca journey. You know, I mean, it's the same thing. It's the same thing with inner child work or whatever or that soul work. It sounds like it's all kind of the same.
- [117:38]
A
Yeah, I suppose it is. Of like I'm, you know, again, our soul is asking us to, to romance ourselves back to it. The fear we are romancing, romancing it to us. We're sitting in conversation with it. We're like, who are you? What, where do you come from? What do you need to know? And so my relationship now is where, when it comes, I'm like, right not now. I'm driving my car or I'm with a client. Just. I'm going to put you on hold, but I'm going to make space for you. And that's when I do. I'm coming to my medicine room and I'm like, I journey with it. Who are you? What are you? What do you look like right now? What would you like to look like? How do you need to be? How do you need to move? How do you speak? So I welcome it. And then even if the fee is still going. No, no, no. I'm like, but you know what? We've done it before, haven't we? So let me prove you wrong and then we'll know. So then I kind of do. It's my own challenge. We've done it before now, so let me prove you. Let me. Let's just do it and let's See what happens. Because it's never as bad as what the fear tells us because that comes from the thinking mind, which again, is not wrong or bad, but it's a survival strategy. The thinking mind of the fear is, no, no, no, don't do that, because this happened last time and it was a really, really bad thing. Or we had trauma or someone laughed at us, or we got sh. That's just old information. So I'm saying to the fear, like, no, no, no, I understand myself better now. I'm in charge. I am my own counsel. So let me take you with me and let me show you and see, proved you wrong. And so it gets to be. When it comes again, we're like, here we go again. I've showed you last time. Let's do it again.
- [119:11]
B
Yeah, it sounds like the inner child work thing again, you know, like that you're being. You're being the. You're being the adult to your younger self or, you know, or your wise self is. Is. Is talking to your unwise self.
- [119:29]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [119:30]
B
The fever. Okay, and last question. What qualities do you admire in other people?
- [119:35]
A
Ah, I love this question. Because what I look like, what I love, that makes me just go, oh, God, there you are. Which I suppose is also connected to the. The child work we're talking about is when someone is in that space to. To really capture that charge and just own it. To go. Actually, I'm naming it. Like, I've just realized 10 years ago I did this really awful thing and that's. Oh, my God. I feel and. And really be in that space of vulnerability of like, I'm just naming it. Like, I just have so much admiration and. And gratitude to witness that. To go. You know, this is not about blame or judgment or like, you did. What are you saying? This is like, thank you for sharing. I value that. I see you, I witness you, and everything is welcomed here. And so I really love when people are in that space to live from their vulnerability, but then also name it as the. As. As they're kind of in this work.
- [120:37]
B
Yeah. Amazing stuff. That's a good way to finish up because it's been two hours. So thank you so much for joining me.
- [120:46]
A
Oh, Warwick, it. Honestly, it's. Thank you. Such a blessing for welcoming you. Welcome me into this space. I. Yeah, I really appreciate it.
- [120:55]
B
Yeah, it's been. It's been fun talking to you. I've got a page full of notes here that I have to look up things and download books and all sorts of things. So. So, yeah, thanks so much for joining me, Isla, and for you guys at home. Thanks for joining us and we'll catch you on the next episode of the Journey on Podcast.
- [121:12]
A
Thanks for being a part of the Journey on Podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warwick has over 850 full length training videos on his online video library@videos.warwickshiller.com Be sure to follow Warrick on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram to see his latest video training advice and insights.