Julie Velou (4:33)

Oh, thank you. I'm so honored and excited to be here and chat with you today.

Warwick Schiller (4:36)

I'm excited to have you be here and chat with me because you do a lot of stuff in. In Mongolia. And as listeners would know, I'm. I went there one time. I had a grand adventure. And so it's a. Yeah, it's.

Julie Velou (4:48)

So did I.

Warwick Schiller (4:49)

It's one of those places I. I hold dearly the time I had there because it's amazing people. So why don't we start out having you tell us what it is you. You do these days? And then I want to start to unravel. How the hell did you get to be doing that?

Julie Velou (5:04)

I'm from Canada originally, but now I live in Mongolia, by and large, and I have a charity, so I work with kids who scavenge in the garbage dump. So we have two kindergartens and two community libraries. We're in the process of opening a medical clinic. We have a summer camp and a sewing center. Excuse me. And it's all to benefit children and families who scavenge to survive in Ulaanbaatar. And that's the coldest capital city on the planet. And one of the ways That I do. Excuse me. A lot of my fundraising for the project is by leading charity horseback rides across, across all of Mongolia. So I. This year in, on May 6th, we're heading off for the longest charity ride in history. It's 4,000 kilometers, 120 days. We're going. There's nine or ten of us that are going off with the great crew from Horse Trek Mongolia that I work with. And we're going to go and ride across and around pretty much all of Mongolia. And separate from that, every year I do the Gobi Gallop, which is the longest annual charity horseback ride on the planet. So we do 700 kilomet in basically 10 days of riding with two horses per person. So that's pretty much what takes up all of my time is working on the project, helping the kids and putting together these horse adventures.

Warwick Schiller (6:25)

So for people at home listening who might not have a full grasp of what living in the coldest capital in the world is like, living on a garbage dump in the coldest capital of the world. Currently it is minus 21 degrees Fahrenheit, which is minus 30 degrees Celsius.

Julie Velou (6:44)

And it's a pretty warm day for January.

Warwick Schiller (6:47)

Yeah. What time of the day is it in Ulaanbaatar right now?

Julie Velou (6:51)

It's nighttime.

Warwick Schiller (6:52)

It's nighttime.

Julie Velou (6:52)

Early, early morning. Like three, four in the morning. I would guess.

Warwick Schiller (6:56)

Four in the morning it is.

Julie Velou (6:57)

See, there we go.

Warwick Schiller (6:58)

It's gonna get to -32 Celsius by 7am Yep.

Julie Velou (7:02)

That's more than I get.

Warwick Schiller (7:04)

I remember going to. When we were there, we went to the. There's a, there's a place in Ulaanbaatar called the Black Market.

Julie Velou (7:10)

Oh yeah.

Warwick Schiller (7:11)

And we went there one morning to, you know, we went down there pretty early actually. And there was a guy standing outside there. I think he was homeless, but he, you know, I think he was an alcoholic, but he had a big, probably a 750 milliliter bottle of beer under his jacket. He was hugging it because he was trying to thaw it out so he could. So he could.

Julie Velou (7:33)

So he could drink.

Warwick Schiller (7:35)

So he could drink it. Yeah. Do you want to tell us, explain to everybody what is the black market there in. In Ulaanbaata?

Julie Velou (7:42)

The black market, other than them being the coldest place on. In the entire planet, I'm sure. So black market is actually, it's funny because it's one of my absolute favorite spots in Mongolia in Ulaatar. So it's the largest open air market in all of Asia, apparently, which I find shocking. Considering that Mongolia only has three and a half million people, but each of the, it's acres and acres and you can buy anything in there. Like I've, I've taken dares from people who like, oh, you know, somebody said, you know, find me a motorbike. I was like, that's easy. You can buy like lots of Chinese motorbikes in there. Anything that you can think of. And I love to go in there to get. Well, our sewing center, we buy a lot of our fabric from the black market.

Warwick Schiller (8:20)

They have so much beautiful fabric in there.

Julie Velou (8:22)

Oh, the silk. Oh my gosh, the silk is amazing. And you know, because Mongolian traditional clothing is so brightly colored and so beautiful that there's a big market for, for really rich and beautiful silks. And so because there's a big market for it, people cater to it. And so in the black market there's like each little stall which is Maybe sort of 6ft by 6ft is, is owned and operated by a different person, a different family and so, and many, many of them have been there for a long time. I've lived in Mongolia for 16 years coming up and the, there's people there that I know, I've known since, since the beginning when I first like, I've got my boot person so I, you know, when I want to go and when I need to go buy new boots, I go to my boot person and I. Fabric person and I have my, like.

Warwick Schiller (9:08)

Do you have, do you have the boots with the curled up toes?

Julie Velou (9:10)

I do.

Warwick Schiller (9:11)

You do. Can you explain why the toes are.

Julie Velou (9:14)

Curled up so the, the toes are called up. Legend goes is that the Mongolians don't wish to harm any of the grasslands that they walk on. They really do revere the earth in a way that we could certainly all learn something from them about. They're very careful and always have been very careful sort of culturally and historically to make sure that they don't damage the earth. And in fact, traditionally Mongolians don't even like to make a hole in the earth to stake down their ger, so they, they weight it down with large rocks rather than making a hole in the earth. And so it's one of the reasons why like when you go traveling across Mongolia, you know, you're going across lands that have been very well traveled there. You know, the Silk Road went across there. There was a, it's not that nobody's ever been there, but it's the, the land still looks as pristine and as beautiful as it did, you know, when Genghis Khan was Riding across or before, like. And you know, the, the, they have these beautiful historical things like the deer stones and the people stones and the Hercules, which is like the Bronze Age monuments that are on the land everywhere. Anywhere else on the planet they would be behind a big fence. But you just ride up to them and, and it's still exactly as pristine as it was, you know, when the earth was created. And I think that's something that is just, it's, it's incredibly rare and special on the planet today. And it's one of the reasons why I just love being out there so much on horseback in the wilderness. And it's certainly, like I said, it's certainly something we could all, we could all learn from them about.

Warwick Schiller (10:47)

Yeah, most certainly. So you mentioned they, you know, don't like to even stake holes in the ground. And you mentioned a thing called a gear.

Julie Velou (10:54)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (10:54)

Which is what most people would know of as a yurt. So the Russian word is yurt and the, the Mongolian word is gear. And it's that. That circular. Circular tended to have.

Julie Velou (11:06)

In fact, just as an aside, one of the, one of my things that I haven't mentioned yet is I actually co. Own a gear factory in Mongolia and we manufacture gears for the international market and we ship them around the world and we. The profits from that. So my share of the profits basically go to fund Value foundation. And then for every gear that we sell internationally, we also give one to a homeless family in Mongolia. So at the moment we have, we actually have gears in stock in America, in Seattle. So Plug for Moonshift gers. If anybody's out there looking for a ger, we can, we can fix you up.

Warwick Schiller (11:41)

Yeah, let's plug away. What did you say it's called? Moon One.

Julie Velou (11:44)

Moon's Gift Gers.

Warwick Schiller (11:46)

Moon's Gift Gears. So the gers is G E R S?

Julie Velou (11:50)

Yes.

Warwick Schiller (11:51)

Wow, that's. That's pretty cool.

Julie Velou (11:54)

It is quite cool.

Warwick Schiller (11:55)

So I want to. Let's talk a bit more about actually. Well, I gotta ask, how did you end up in Mongolia? What were you doing? What led you to Mongolia in the first place?

Julie Velou (12:02)

The very. It's a very traditional story. I went to Mongolia with my husband for his work. So he's a mining and mineral process engineer and he was in on the very, very early stages of developing the Oyutolgo mine, which is down in the South Gobi. And so we went there for that.

Warwick Schiller (12:18)

What do they mine?

Julie Velou (12:20)

Copper primarily. They have a bit of gold as well. So.

Warwick Schiller (12:25)

So before he went there for that job where were you guys living?

Julie Velou (12:29)

We lived in Salt Lake City and again with mining and then before that we were living in Australia in Melbourne for four years.

Warwick Schiller (12:36)

I was gonna, I was gonna say because you, you know, you're from Canada.

Julie Velou (12:40)

Right?

Warwick Schiller (12:40)

And when you said he went to Mongolia as a mining engineer, I was wondering, well, where else did you go as a, as a mining engineer? What were you doing in Australia?

Julie Velou (12:48)

He was working for Rio Tinto in Melbourne.

Warwick Schiller (12:50)

Not a lot of Rio Tinto mines in Melbourne though.

Julie Velou (12:53)

Well, it's the, the, the technical service center is there. So he did a lot of traveling around the world to different Rio Tinto mines and advising them on how best to improve their processes so that they could maximize the recovery of the mineral.

Warwick Schiller (13:06)

Of the ore. How, how long did you guys live in Australia?

Julie Velou (13:10)

Four years. We were there and. We were there. We were there for Y2K.

Warwick Schiller (13:14)

Oh really? You know, it's funny is, you know, if everybody remembers the whole Y2K thing, like the computers are going to reset and the world's going to stop and all that sort of stuff. We actually went to Australia for Christmas to be at my parents place who they have a cow to milk, they have chickens that lay eggs.

Julie Velou (13:33)

Right.

Warwick Schiller (13:34)

You catch the rainwater off the roof.

Julie Velou (13:35)

Right.

Warwick Schiller (13:36)

We actually went to White and Winter to my parents place for Y2K in case the world came to a halt.

Julie Velou (13:44)

Right, right. We were down on Phillip island for Y2K with a bunch of friends of ours and their neighbor. Strangely enough, it was an American guy who had sold everything in America and moved to Australia and bought this place entirely to be self sufficient because he was convinced that Y2K was going to happen. And so we were all like, we were all just waiting and of course nothing happened. And so then he, I don't know what he did afterwards actually whether or not he sort of sold up and went back to the States, but he was convinced it was going to happen. So we had this, the extra level of drama of watching the neighbor to see, you know, how he was going to respond to it all.

Warwick Schiller (14:18)

That's funny. So your husband's moving around these different places when you, are you moving with, are you living with him most of the time?

Julie Velou (14:27)

All the time? Yeah, we.

Warwick Schiller (14:28)

And so what are you, what are you doing to keep yourself busy?

Julie Velou (14:31)

So. Well, lots, lots and lots of things. The, you know, of course, you know, we had children and so I was, I was momming it and so we had two children, two boys and our oldest son passed away 14 years ago, 15 years ago yesterday. And Our youngest son is living in Japan and is married, and he is doing very well. We. But, you know, in those days, we were. We were traveling around, and so my job was basically to do sort of all of that when the boys got a little bigger. And when we moved to Salt Lake City, I was a real estate agent. And then I became an ESL teacher. My. My. My degree is in French, so I sort of was a degree in French with a minor in Spanish. And I, I had like, a big fondness for languages. I love language and I love how when you speak a different language, you understand the different culture. Like, it's really remarkable how much language contains the culture. And so, so then I became an ESL teacher, and that's kind of what I was doing when we moved to Mongolia.

Warwick Schiller (15:33)

An ESL teacher is a what?

Julie Velou (15:36)

Oh, sorry. English as a second language.

Warwick Schiller (15:39)

Ah, English, second language. Okay. So then you guys moved to Mongolia. And when was that?

Julie Velou (15:44)

We moved to Mongolia in 2010. So September 2010. The first time we went there was 2009 in December. We went for Arlook C. Which companies will do for you. It was kind of funny, actually, because we were 100 committed to going already. The company paid for a free trip, so we went to check it out. So I got to go in December in the middle of like, cold, cold weather. And I'm from northern British Columbia originally, like far, far north. So the cold wasn't really an issue for me. It was fine. No, actually I was quite a far. Quite a bit further north, but.

Warwick Schiller (16:13)

Right. They probably. Are they probably similar distance from the equator.

Julie Velou (16:16)

Are they in British Columbia? Is because Mongolia is basically just about the. Half of it's in America in the States and half of it's in Canada kind of if you put on the parallel. But it is. It's just because it's such a. The altitude is high. It's a high Central Asian plain, and it's so far away from any. Any ocean, which is why it makes it the coldest capital city in the world. And so that's why. I mean, that's why it's so difficult for the people in the garbage dump is because, you know, when I was a kid in northern Canada, we would spend every summer out, you know, getting wood because we. I grew up with wood heat and we didn't have any electric backup. It was just wood or. Or freeze to death. So, you know, a dad would take us all willing or not. And generally it was the. Or not out to, you know, cut down trees and buck them up. And pile. I've piled I don't know how many cords of lumber of wood in my life. But like in Mongolia, because it's only 6% treed, you know, the traditional fuel is dung from the animals out in the countryside. And most of the people that are in the city that, people that we, that we work with at the foundation is, you know, they're displaced herders. And so most of them don't have their animals anymore. So they, they've not just lost their livelihood, they've lost their fuel. And so when you're living in a ger, a yurt, as you would, you know, yurts are really, really wonderful dwellings. If you have a fire in the middle of them, when it's minus 50 outside, if you have a fire and two or three layers of felt, they're cozy, they're warm, they're fantastic. If you have no fire in about two or three hours, they're the same temperature inside as it is outside. And so the urgency for these people is to have something to burn. And so it's more important than food or water, actually. You'll die faster by freezing to death in the winter. So the, the whole, the whole thing, you know, the. I know that there's trash pickers around the world and certainly, you know, we've had the Value foundation for quite a long time. We started in 2007 and we've done lots of work in different places. But you know, in Mongolia, where you have the, the people that we work with, they spend about 60 of their time year round gathering things from the garbage to burn in the winter so they don't freeze to death because they can't afford to buy coal, which is what most people use in Mongolia, which is why it's the. Also the most polluted capital city in the world in the winter.

Warwick Schiller (18:31)

Yeah, the outside, when you go outside, it almost feels like your eyes are burning from the, from the cold smoke in the air. At least I felt that little.

Julie Velou (18:41)

When you have the counters that they have that, you know, count how many parts per million of, you know, pollution there is in the air. And so they have those all over the city. And you can access them, you know, online in the city center is very often 240 or 250 or 400. And that's, I think 25 is the safe level. And so the city center is often that high. And then where, where our kindergarten is, which is up, up in the far northwest corner close to the garbage dump, it's often the readers up there are 999. And I'm pretty sure that's just because they only go to a thousand. And so the. The air quality is shockingly bad. And that's because the people who are finding things in the garbage to burn, it's shoes and tires and, you know, the toxicity is astonishingly bad, really.

Warwick Schiller (19:30)

So it's 999 parts per million that you can. That, you know of.

Julie Velou (19:34)

Right, Right. Who knows?

Warwick Schiller (19:36)

And 25. 25 is the safe level.

Julie Velou (19:38)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (19:39)

Wow.

Julie Velou (19:40)

Yeah. Yeah. It's. It's. It's bad. It's one of the reasons why, you know, for our medical clinic that we're opening is because a lot of the people that we have. Medical clinic has been my dream, like, since the beginning. And just in this last year, it's sort of come to fruition. All the. The moving parts aligned and we're able to do it. And the people. The way that the system works in Mongolia is that it's a Soviet system, actually, that the med. You, they have free medical care, but you only have free medical care where you're registered. And so most of our people, because they're displaced herders who've lost their animals during a sod is those really terrible winters where you will see on news, if you pay attention to Mongolia, you'll see that, you know, 60 million animals froze to death this. This winter and whatnot. And so when that happens, a lot of people lose their livelihood and are forced into the city, and many of them end up on the garbage dump. And that's because they're not registered in the city. And it's very, very difficult to get the registration switch from the countryside to the city. And that's because the city is already burdened with too many people for the. For the infrastructure that it has. So they. They don't. They don't want more people. So most of the people that we help, they could go to the doctor for free in their hometown, but their hometown is, I don't know, 300, 400, 700, 900 kilometers away. And. And they don't have a car. And so effectively, they have no medical care. And so the. One of the. One of the big, big problems is that they don't have any preventative medical care. And so they. A lot of things, as we all know, like, it's the same there as it is anywhere else on the planet. If you take care preventatively, then your health is much better in the long term than if you don't. And a lot of what a lot of people in Mongolia are Working hard is to try to find a solution to the pollution because it is, it is like literally killing people. And the worst part is that the, the really toxic contaminants from the coal smoke which the Ger district is. Two thirds of the population of Mongolia is in the Gear district. So that's what you would call a slum. And some of it very, very impoverished. Some of the Gear district has been there for a very long time and it's very well established as a sort of middle class suburb. But they still all use coal. And so the contaminants inside the coal, the really, really toxic ones, they hang about two or three feet off the ground. And so if you think who's breathing two or three feet off the ground, that's the children. So that's, that's sort of, I mean one of the, one of the big challenges that, that we face. And so, you know, the first time that when I, when I went up there and I went into, oh my gosh, I'll never forget, I went into this little shack where this, this kid was, he was homesick from the dump because he was too sick to go to the dump, which you have to wonder how sick that is. The answer is pretty sick. He had really bad bronchitis and had a fever and he was sort of in this squalid little hut. And the inside of the hut was completely black, like, and it shouldn't have been completely black. It was made of gray brick, gray like cement block thing. And in the, the fire, the wood box which is beside the stove, the wood box was full of shoes. And that's what they told me, that the reason that it was black inside is because when you burn shoes it produces this really black residue. And that was very, very early on. That was before I even built. That was the first time that I went up there and I was just like, this is wrong. You know, somebody needs to do something.

Warwick Schiller (23:07)

Well, I want to get, I want to get to all that stuff in a minute. But I just want to back up about the, the, the gears when you were saying that they're nice and warm if you actually have fuel to burn in them. And when I did that, when my son and I did that, that Gobi cold camel expedition, we were rode camels across the, you know, along the parts of the old Silk Road in the Gobi Desert. Yeah, we had, there's, you know, we're paying for it, an adventure. But it's, you know, we, we have a, a chef who cooks for us all our meals all that sort of stuff, you know.

Julie Velou (23:41)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (23:42)

And when we will leave our camp in the morning and you ride all day and you get to the next camp and your gear's all set up. But what we didn't realize was there was two crews. So when we left and I just thought they were fast.

Julie Velou (23:54)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (23:55)

I'm like, that's how you do them passing yesterday. And so you'd leave, you know, one camp in the morning and you get to the next camp that night and your gear's all set up and all your gears in it and whatever. And, and I thought they were really good at it. I didn't realize it was two crews. Okay. And what they did, they'd leapfrog. So. So the first night our fire was. Was I think they had a wood fire and it burned out about wood. So there's wood in the stove and it burned out probably two o' clock in the morning. And then like you said, it's just as cold inside as it outside. And so when we get the next night, we don't realize that it's a different crew. And we say, oh, it's really cold last night. Can you make it warmer? So they fire that thing up with coal. And there was. We were all laying around in our underwear on top of our sleeping bags. Sweat, sweating like pigs. And the, and, and the, the inside of the gear was. Looked kind of had an orange glow to it because the top of that thing was like glowing red. And then. So the next night we're like, oh, it was too hot last night. Can you make it cooler? Well, we don't realize they're different guys. So they're the guys who had the wood fire the first time. So now they put barely anything in there and now we're all freezing. And it took us. I don't know, maybe I'm just slow. But it took us a while to figure out it was two crews.

Julie Velou (25:19)

Right. Right. That's you. I completely sympathize with you about the, that whole thing about the, you know, too hot or too cold in a gear. And so like the, the secret, the secret to ger heating, if you will, is to put a goodly amount of coal in, but not too much or a really good mixture of dung with just a bit of coal in. It also works really well. And then get up at 2 o' clock and do it again. And if you, if you don't do that either one of those. If you don't do either one of those situations, you will either be far too hot and then Far too cold. Yeah. It's not like central heating, right?

Warwick Schiller (25:56)

Yeah. Now we had. We had both of those and. And it wasn't a extremely cold winter when we were there. I think the first. The first time they did that trip was when you had one. What was the name of that. That word you used when it's really cold and sood. Like they, you know, they woke up in the morning, they were, you know, five dead jeep and a dead yak or something outside.

Julie Velou (26:18)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's sad when this happens.

Warwick Schiller (26:22)

So you mentioned before that that the mining company sent you for a bit of a look beforehand, but you had decided already that you were going to go. Did you know much about Mongolia? Because before I went there, I knew nothing about Mongolia. And if you didn't know much about Mongolia, what was it that drew you? Like, yes, we want to go.

Julie Velou (26:40)

I knew nothing. I mean, the. It was funny, actually, because when we were living in Australia, my husband came home and said, would you like to move to Salt Lake City? And I said, I think what every normal person would say, why the heck would I move to Salt Lake City? And he said, There's 10 ski heels within 45 minutes. And I said, okay. And that was the entire conversation about moving to Salt Lake City. And when he came home, we'd been in Salt Lake City. We ended up staying in Salt Lake City for longer than we normally would just because the boys were at high school age. And so we didn't want to. We didn't want to uproot them in the middle of high school. We had the opportunity actually to move to Alaska while they were like, in sort of grades 11 and 9. But we turned that down and stayed in Salt Lake City sort of for the continuity. And then it was 2007, he came home and said, do I move to Mongolia? And I said, yes. And then I said, where exactly is Mongolia? And it's embarrassing to me now. Like, if I would have had to pick it out of a. Like off a map at that point, I think I probably would have picked like, Kazakhstan or Kyrgyzstan or like one of the stands. I don't think I would have picked Mongolia. It's. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly. It's over there.

Warwick Schiller (27:52)

So if. If you guys at home don't know where Mongolia is, it's tough. It's. It's on the Russia and Chinese border, right?

Julie Velou (27:58)

Yeah. It's only. They only have two. They only have two borders. People think that the Kazakhstan is their third border, but it's not, is they. They're completely encapsulated by Russia and China. So there's no. That, that's. If you're going to leave or if you're going to come, you've got to go through either Russia or China. No option.

Warwick Schiller (28:17)

Well, there's another option, actually, because when we, when we went there, we flew in on towards the end of January 2020, and there was this new virus going around that people were talking about, we didn't know much about.

Julie Velou (28:29)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (28:30)

So we flew through Beijing on the way in, but two days after we got there, they closed the border with China and we actually had to fly through Japan.

Julie Velou (28:37)

Yeah, sure, you can fly in and out. But now, like, Korea is very common.

Warwick Schiller (28:42)

Oh, did you mean. You mean flying? You meant. I mean, like, if you're going to.

Julie Velou (28:45)

Drive anything, you're also, you're coming through Chinese airspace or Russian airspace. Like, there's no, like, there's some, some way, shape or form. But yeah, no, as far as actually coming for a visit. Yeah. Korea, Istanbul, Germany. There's. There's lots of ways to come.

Warwick Schiller (29:03)

So you said before that you started the volo foundation in 2020, I mean, 2007, and you weren't even in Mongolia. So what, what was your idea for starting the foundation then? What were you. What, you know, what goals were you trying to achieve back then?

Julie Velou (29:17)

So we, my husband and I have always. We've always sort of been charitable and we've always donated money to lots and lots of different causes. And so we had a really great financial advisor when we lived in Salt Lake City, and he got me thinking in a different way than I had been thinking. And this is when I was a realtor. And so I had one of my own houses that I. I had a house that we rented out to international expats when they came for work. And I decided I'd done enough of that, and so I wanted to sell the house. And so I sold the house, and I ended up actually getting $50,000 more for the house than I thought I was going to get. And so these were the heady days of 2006, 2007. And so right before it went down.

Warwick Schiller (30:01)

Yeah, right before it went down.

Julie Velou (30:02)

Timing on my part, but because we hadn't expected to get this, this, this money, we had thought for a long time that we should make our own. Our own foundation or our own sort of charity. And the reason for that was just because I feel really strongly, really passionately that governments should be doing the good works that charities do and people should not be doing this. This is all, all of the work that we're doing essentially is stuff that some government somewhere should be taking care of. And so when you have a charity and like, so if you put $10,000 in, you're going to get $3,000 of that back or thereabouts, you know, from the, you know, the charitable tax receipt as part of your tax deduction thing. And so we, we decided that we would make the charity and then the money that we got back from donating to the charity, we would also invest in the charity. So that essentially the government, the, the, the US Government, you know, where it was supporting the charity and, and doing good with that. So because if we're going to give $10,000 and not get a tax receive receipt for it, that's fine. But if you give $10,000 and you get a tax receipt and then the money that comes back, you can give that as well, then you're effectively giving 13 or 14,000 instead of 10. So that was sort of how the foundation started. Wasn't we never meant for it to be anything other than just like our friends and families donate. And we, because we started, you know, we were supporting orphanages and home for the disabled in, in Malaysia and then we did some work with some schools in, in India and we did some stuff actually inside of Utah, you know, for, for some of the kids that were low income there. So we were just basically doing that sort of stuff and engaging governments in, in supporting it. And then when we moved to Mongolia and we found this situation as it was our, you know, our mission for the foundation is to help orphans and other similarly disadvantaged children in the developing world. And so that really, that really matched really closely with these kids who were home alone. Many of the children that we saw when we initially went up there, their parents were up scavenging and the kids were like too, they were too big to be carried on their back anymore and they were too little to be useful in the garbage dump. So they were home alone. So you're talking like sort of 2 years old to 6 years old. Lots of, of these kids. The, I don't know, in, in the countryside in Mongolia it's very, very common if you have to go out to milk your animals, like milk your cows or what your yaks or whatever, but you tie the child to the central pole in the gear. So there's the two central supporting poles. It's very, very common to tie, you know, like the toddler age child to that. And you know, people be all shocked about that. But like if you think about, you've been there, you've seen how far it is and how quickly you can lose sight of somebody, even though it looks flat, that it's like it's undulating the, the grasslands. And so if your child runs off for the 20 minutes or 30 minutes that you're milking the cows, they could just be gone, gone. And so then, you know, when you tie the child to the central pillar in the countryside, you can still hear them. You know, gers are not soundproof if there's a big problem. Even if you're out with the cows, you can hear them. And so this unfortunately, is the, the history or the, the habit, the knowledge that the people have. And so we would go and you would find little kids that were left in the garage tied to the pole while their parents went to scavenge. And so this is a very, very different situation. You know, they're go, you know, you're gone for six or eight or 10 hours and the child is left tied to the pole while you're. It's not the same thing as I totally understand in the countryside, I would do it. If I was living in the countryside in a gear and had to go milk the cows, I, I would do the same thing. And. But it's, it's, it's heartbreaking when you have these little kids. And so we just, you know, that when we, when we first moved to Salt Lake City, I mean to Mongolia, to Ulaar, we organized to bring, so the company pays for a whole container of, you can bring your goods, you know, so that you feel comfortable. We've been doing the expat thing a long time at that point. So we, we, you know, we'd done four years in Indonesia and two years in Quebec, which is like another country. And we'd, you know, been in Australia, we've been in America, we'd been a lot of places. And so we did not need an entire 20 foot container of our stuff to come with us. We are not that kind of people. And so we had about 2ft or 3ft of stuff of our own stuff that we wanted to bring, mostly books actually. And so we filled up the rest of the 20 foot container with donated items which were like mostly jackets and blankets and warm clothing, sweaters and whatnot. And so when we got there and we distributed it all, we worked with the International Women's association, which is a group of expat wives basically, as well as Mongolian women who do good works in Mongolia. And so we, we worked with them and we Distributed. And that's how we. That's how we found the. The situation in the. The garbage dump. And so we normally, previously we had. We had donated. We had supported existing organizations like orphanages and, and handicap homes and whatnot. There was. There were no existing organizations helping people from the garbage dump community to support. So it was sort of like you either become a frontline organization or you. Or you don't help because there's. There's no way to help. And so that's how we decided to build the first kindergarten was just because to become. To have some mechanism to be able to directly help the kids, we had to create it.

Warwick Schiller (35:47)

Yeah. So you couldn't actually donate to something because there was nothing in place.

Julie Velou (35:52)

Right. Nobody. Nobody was helping these people. And in fact, in the early days, it was really amusing. In the early days, you know, when I would. I would go to whatever social function or networking meeting or whatever it was, and I would speak to Mongolian people and I would tell them, they would ask, you know, what do you do? Why are you in Mongolia? And so I would tell them what I was doing, and they would. They would flat out deny that there were any children scavenging in the garbage dump. They would just say, no, that's not true. And I. I always said, well, let's go then. I've got a driver outside. Let's just go right now. We'll go. Let's just. With no, no preparation. Let's just go and see if we can find any children. Nobody ever took me up on it, but it's.

Warwick Schiller (36:29)

Would they. Would they. Were they. Did they honestly not believe that there were children there or was it like cognitive dissonance? Like that can't be.

Julie Velou (36:40)

I think it was some of both. I think there was a lot of. There was a lot of belief in the early days that they sort of knew that there were people in the garbage dump, but they just. The sort of. The popular story was that they were all just alcoholics and they were in there because they were sort of losers. And, you know, there's a lot of the Buddhist fate sort of thing, that they're in there because they should be in there and whatnot. And so that was. There was a. There was a big public perception that the people who were in there were. It was their own fault. And, and if children were in there, it was their own fault as well. And so this really was a big battle of public opinion to, to educate people that this is not. People are not in there because it's their fault. They're there because the system doesn't support any sort of. There's, there's no, there's no welfare net. If, if you lose your animals in the countryside, like I said before, the biggest thing that you lose is your source of fuel. And so you can't stay there if you don't have animals because you'll, you'll die. And so, so then they, you know, they, then they were coming to the city, and once they got to the city, because they don't have the right paperwork, they can't. They're not legally allowed to work. And so it just, you know, and so people in the city didn't. It was the thing. And one of the reasons I'm so passionate about it is that. And in their defense, it's a. It's a relatively new problem in Mongolia. So when Mongolia was a Soviet satellite, you know, sort of up till 1990 when they, when they kicked out the Russians, this. This didn't exist. This wasn't allowed to exist. This wasn't. You know, there weren't. There were no people on the garbage dump until then. And so this all happened as they changed from, you know, a Soviet satellite and the Soviet system to free market economy and democracy. There's, there's gaps, you know, in the, in the support systems as you change so dramatically from one system to the other. And so this evolved out of it. And so one of the reasons I'm just so passionate about this is because we actually, I saw straight away that we had an opportunity to break this cycle before it became generational. And because once it's generational, you have a really big problem. But, and I, and honestly, I think, I think we've done it. There's. There are. There are still people in the garbage dump, but there are no children. And there hasn't been since 2000. And it goes 2017. No, it wasn't. It was 2019 because we, we had been operating for seven years, and I'd given myself 10 years to sort of fix this problem, if you will. And so in 2000 and in 2017 or 18 or whenever it was, we. We go every year into the garbage dump to interview people because we get a lot of new people coming and people coming and going, right, to make sure that people knew that there was. That their kids didn't have to be there, that, you know, we would take care of their kids. And our kindergarten is. We call it a kindergarten, but it's really a preschool. Like, it's for ages 2 through, through sick, like, until they're ready to go to first grade. And so there's really no reason for any children to be in the garbage dump anymore because they can all come and be with us and be fed and cared for and you know, educated.

Warwick Schiller (39:50)

So how many of them do you have?

Julie Velou (39:53)

So if you combine the two kindergartens this year I think we're at 4, 390 something. And so last year was more. Last year was 430 or 40. We're in the process of building a new kindergarten building like on our existing property. We're expanding. We're building a passive solar kindergarten which is going to increase the capacity. We have six new classrooms and so that will increase the capacity by about 180. There is sadly still much more than that as far as need goes. And so we'll, we'll be up to somewhere close to 600 when that building is completed.

Warwick Schiller (40:32)

So these kids, their parents are still scavenging on the garbage dump.

Julie Velou (40:37)

So here's the really, the really beautiful thing about it is that, I mean you will have met Mongolian countryside people. They're amazing and they are resilient and they are innovative and they're smart and they're hardworking. And so a lot of what's happened is, you know, people in the garbage dump that we've helped, they're the same as you or I. If somebody is taking care of their children, then they have the freedom to, to pursue something, you know, a little, a little different. And so many of them have left the garbage dump. Many of them have gotten, gone and gotten training. They're able to suddenly hold down a real job because their child is being taken care of. And so lots of them went to be like street sweepers, which if you were in Mongolia in the winter, you probably saw the street sweepers like with the broom on the street with the.

Warwick Schiller (41:32)

It's a. But it's not a broom, is it? Isn't it a. It's made out of branches, isn't it?

Julie Velou (41:36)

Oh no, the one. Yeah, it's made out of branches, but it's a broom. And they, they break things up and they sweep it with that. And then. So, so those, those kinds of jobs people have gotten, they've gotten into construction. We had it. We ran a program with one of the mining supply companies. We, we got 20 young people, men and women out of the garbage dump who already had a driver's license and they went for training mining to become heavy duty equipment operators. And they all of them passed with flying colors and all of them went and got jobs in mining. Companies, different mining companies around the country. So you know the, the life changing factor of that is like you can't, you can't quantify it. Mining jobs in Mongolia are the same as mining jobs anywhere else on the planet. They pay well. And so you know, you had, we had a, a couple that they were both in the garbage dump. And so she came, we, we, we trained her. She came and was our cook and he went and through this program and he got a job as a heavy duty equipment operator. And they went from making the equivalent of about 6 or 8 US dollars a day to making about 700 or 800 US like it's not a day. Let me figure that out properly. So they, yes, they make about $6 a day. So that, that gives you what, 180 in a month. So they probably went to about, probably went over a thousand dollars a month. So more than 10 times. More than 10 times. Easily more than 10 times. And so.

Warwick Schiller (43:06)

Wow.

Julie Velou (43:06)

So that it's not just for those two people. That's for their children and that's for their, their whole. That, that, that's just been repeated over and over again that the people who were in the garbage dump, you take them out, you give them an opportunity to give them a. And chance and then they are, they change the future of their family.

Warwick Schiller (43:25)

It's amazing. The knock on effect of. I didn't, you know, I thought you were only helping the kids, but the way you're helping the kids is giving those parents an opportunity to actually they're not in survival mode as much. So how, tell me again how long you've been doing that?

Julie Velou (43:48)

Well, we, we moved, we moved there in 2010 and we, we opened the, the first kindergarten in 2013. So 2012, we built it and. Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (44:01)

Okay. So which leads me to my question. Are you still in touch with any of these kids?

Julie Velou (44:07)

Yes.

Warwick Schiller (44:08)

And do you have a sense of now that they're older how much of a difference you actually made in their lives?

Julie Velou (44:18)

The. Oh, I've just done something.

Warwick Schiller (44:21)

I don't know why there's balloons coming up on the screen. I think the computer just liked the question. So right then I can see Julie, Julie can see me. And we had, on her side of the screen we just had balloons.

Julie Velou (44:33)

Right. So maybe, maybe the computer actually can read my mind because there's like definitely balloons, balloons popping up. So we, we have stayed in touch with quite a few of the, the kids and part of that is because we have the community libraries as well. So the, at the community libraries which the the one is right beside our first kindergarten. The kids come and they, they have access to the Internet and they have access to STEM education and art and like all kinds of stuff. So it's a, a really good support for the children as they go through school. So a lot of the kids that went to the kindergarten, as they went to school and that's one of, that's why we built the library is so that they have the opportunity for academic success moving forward as well. And so, yeah, so there's this. So they all take English starting in seventh grade. And so, so by the time they get like, I can speak Mongolian now. So, so it's, it's different. But the story, like I was at the sewing center and one of the kids came by for some reason and he was like, Julie, Julie, Julie, Julie. And he was like, I think he was in ninth grade at that point and I hadn't, I hadn't seen him actually since, since kindergarten. But you could, you know, some kids, they just look the same. And he, he was one of those. And I was just like, billy, hello. And he was like, I am so happy. I'm like, okay, that's good. And so we went on and he really wanted to speak to me in English. And so I asked him if he remembered being at the kindergarten and he said my kindergarten was too good. It was too good. And he was like. And I said, do you still have friends from the kindergarten? He said yes, yes, many friends. And so I've had interactions sort of on the street and around and about before with kids. And we do have another program which we have, which is, it's very small at the moment. And that's because I wanted to run through a full gamut of it before we expanded it. So we have a scholarship program and we have students on scholarship at private schools in, in Mongolia. So we have one girl who went through the kindergarten program and she's on scholarship at an English language school. And she's, she's a genius. She's really, really smart, really, really lovely girl. And so it's perfectly fluent in English now. And so she's just messaged me the other day to say that she's got her, she's got a full ride scholarship to a very prestigious university in Hong Kong and that she's going to use as a backup if she can't get into the one she want. And so the, you know, it is a case by case basis. Like it's hard for me when I look at the overall, I know intellectually that there's been lots of changes, but on a case by case basis, When I think about these kids, and I think about where they would have been, because, like, the biggest thing, the biggest single thing, to me, honestly, is not the education. The biggest single thing is the nutrition. Because we have kids in our kindergarten, quite a number of them actually, that have rickets and similar sorts of nutritional deficiency diseases. And so, as we all know, it's not rocket science. If you provide adequate nutrition to children under the age of five, Their brain develops. And so if their brain is well developed and functioning, then whatever happens to them later in life, they have the capacity to take advantage of opportunity. And if you. If they're malnourished to that point, Their brain doesn't develop properly and it will never catch up. And they are automatically disenfranchised from future opportunities because they don't have the cognitive ability. And so, for me, the most critical thing is to feed the children up properly. And so. So that's. Initially, that was really all I was about. Like, I just, like, I want them to be warm and safe and fed. And preschool education, you know, whatever happens, happens sort of thing. I'm. I've moved on a little bit from there, like, as our preschool education. Our kindergarten chief is, like, astonishing. She's really, really good. And our kids just do so spectacularly when they. When they go off to school. Like, we got an award from the city as being, like, the best kindergarten to prepare children for. For school in the mongolian school system. Which was, like, amazing. Like, really amazing. Because it's not. Like I said, it wasn't really the original goal. But we have. We have the nutrition well and truly taken care of now. So we get lots and lots of donations in support of nutrition. So I don't have to worry about that. So sort of, it's, you know, the hierarchy of needs. But that's. That's also. That's quite. It's quite wonderful to see the kids. So funny, you know, like. Like kids in north America, in the developed world, you know, that, oh, I don't like that. I'm not eating that. We don't have that problem. We really don't. Like, doesn't matter what you put in front of them, they're just, like, gone. And so it is really. It's rewarding to see. Having said that, we do put good food in front of them. We make it. Like. We actually have a project that we're working on. That's been supported by donations by herbalife. And the thing I love about this herbalife donation is that they don't. They explicitly do not allow us to use any of their products. Like, people think, oh, they want you to, you know, to feed their vitamins. They said, you're not allowed to use any of our products. And what they want is. They want us. We have to do measurable nutritional goals that we. That we meet. And so we have this. This great framework now to. To. To quantify what. What the nutrition is and what the outcome is and growth and performance and everything. And so. And it really is. Yeah, it's. It's cool. It's quite. It's quite fun.

Warwick Schiller (50:10)

You know, I was thinking about that the girl that you said got the full ride scholarship To a prestigious university in Hong kong. You know, from the. From the garbage dump to the. To that. Yeah, yeah, that's like. That's like. That's not two different humans, but those are two different lives. You know what I mean?

Julie Velou (50:34)

The trajectory and. Yeah, the trajectory is definitely changed. And so we have. It's been a really, really big challenge. So we. We have, like, five kids at private schools. And I stopped at that point. I could have had more. But I thought, let's just. These are real people that we're dealing with. Like, they're not statistics. They're not numbers. Like, let's just see what is this? Like, like, what is. How does this actually work for them? And so, I mean, there's been a lot. A lot of challenges, as you could imagine. And a large reason for the success is the support of the parents. So this young. This young lady's mother is just. She's been. One of the reasons we picked this young girl, actually, is because her mother was just absolutely adamant that her girls were going to be educated. Like, she was adamant about it. She didn't care what it took that was going to happen. And so. And the support of the parent to get through. I mean, I don't know if you have children, but the. Getting kids through private school. When you're a girl in teenage years, it's the same in mongolia as everywhere else. It's not very easy. And so they've had quite a journey that they've been on. And so I'm waiting for it all to come out in the wash to determine whether or not it's. And, you know, I've asked her, you know, if she thinks this was a good idea. And she does. But she has some very. She's very good, insightful things about ways that we could have done it better. And obviously, we'll we'll listen to that. But it is. So one of the things that we're doing as a result of that experiment is that in the, in the new passive solar kindergarten building that we're building, we're going to be putting in an English language stream. So it's going to be, I'm a big fan of Montessori education. So it's going to be Montessori. It's kids esque. So the, you'll have multi age grouping. So the preschool will be like three, four and five year olds. And so we'll just start with 10 children and we'll just enroll 10 more each year until, until we get up to sixth grade. And so it'll be a dual language stream, English and Mongolian. And the part, the purpose of it is not exactly so that the kids will learn English, although obviously that will happen and that will be good. The purpose is so that the parents will start to think about the fact that their child could go overseas on a scholarship and have access to the same educational opportunities that the rich kids in the city center have. And so from building the libraries and seeing how the parents have responded, it's remarkable. Like I said, what these parents will do, they're the same as us. They'll do whatever will make a better life for their children. And so if their children have an opportunity to learn English, so if they, if they go through the English language stream, by the time, by the time they come out in grade six and go to like a state school for grade seven or whatnot, their English will be well and truly foundationally set. And so suddenly the kids will think about, I could go to Canada or America or Australia on a, you know, and because of their economic situation, they'll qualify for lots of, lots of scholarships available, you know, to bright kids who speak English from third world countries. And so, and so the kids that go will make it possible for the other parents whose kids didn't go through the English language school to realize, hey, this is a possibility. And so then it becomes part of their goal to get their kid to learn English somehow. And there's lots of ways to learn it, lots of ways to do it. But like at the moment, nobody in that community is thinking, oh, I can send my kid overseas, you know, on scholarship. And so when this young girl who's on our scholarship program, she's still from the community, when she goes, that's going to be the beginning of people saying, wait a minute, we can do that too. Like, it's not just the rich kids. So that's that's sort of the, the, the, the purpose behind the English language school is to inspire the whole community to dream bigger.

Warwick Schiller (54:29)

That's, that's amazing. Oh, there's so much I was going to ask you about. So why don't you tell us, tell us a bit about. So that's the, the, that's the school. Tell us about this goby gallop and the blue wolf totem ride and then this other 4000 kilometer monstrosity of a ride too. Tell us, tell us, tell us a bit about them then. Tell us. Where did, where did that come from? Like where the ideas for those things come from.

Julie Velou (54:57)

Okay, so it all. The, the whole thing starts the Sarah who was my, she was my Mongolian language teacher. Sarah and Baggy own horse track Mongolia, which is actually technically called sodden motor night, but that means special horse tracks and nobody was going to Google.

Warwick Schiller (55:14)

Can I, can I back up a second here?

Julie Velou (55:15)

Sure.

Warwick Schiller (55:16)

So they taught you Mongolian Sarah?

Julie Velou (55:19)

She was, she's a professional Mongolian language teacher. And so when we, when we moved.

Warwick Schiller (55:23)

So my question for you was you were you, you know, you, you majored in French, minored in Spanish. So you had a bit of a thing for other tongues. But Mongolian language has got a totally different pronunciation than any English, Spanish or French. Did you have any trouble? Well, tell us about your journey to learning Mongolian.

Julie Velou (55:47)

Oh, buckets of trouble. Buckets and buckets of trouble. It's a really challenging language. And it's like you say they have sounds in Mongolian we. That we don't have in English.

Warwick Schiller (55:56)

They're in the back of your throat. Aren't they a little more German like the Germans?

Julie Velou (55:59)

Well, vowels, vowels. They have front vowels and back vowels. So like you can say O, which is o, or you can say oh, which is like in the throat or in the mouth. So, and you have to know vowels have agreement. They're either male or masculine or feminine. The vowels. And so the, the whole process of. And if they're masculine or feminine depends where you pronounce them and how you pronounce them. They have like, if a word ends, you know, like the word same in English where it's M e and the E is silent, but it makes the A say its own name. In Mongolian, if you have a vowel that ends like, if it ends like. People see the word taki and they say taki which is. Or like gorky is like gorky trill. People see that on the map. English speaking people, it's G O, R, K H I. So they say it's Gorky. But what. In Mongolian, the final. The final vowel means that you have to switch the final vowel and the final consonant. So it's not gorky, it's gore. And it's not tacky, it's tak. And so, like, you have to, like, boom.

Warwick Schiller (57:08)

Boom, stop, back up. So if there is a vowel at the end, it means that you switch. What do you switch?

Julie Velou (57:18)

You switch the vowel and the preceding.

Warwick Schiller (57:20)

Consonant, the vowel and the preceding consonant. Only if it's at the end.

Julie Velou (57:25)

Yeah. And only if there's one. If there's two, it's different. But if there's one. Yeah, you switch it backwards. And then they have, like, these signs that called. Which means that if this sign is put after the consonant or after the vowel, it means the preceding consonant. Pronunciation is changed. And so there's. And the word order is very different than English. And so that's the biggest difference is that the word orders and it's a language of suffixes. So the one that I always tell people is, like, they just add things on where we use prepositions. Like, so if I just say, you know, husband is nahur. And so my husband is. And I'm like, with. My husband is nahur, tera. And so, like, the words just get longer and longer and longer as you add prepositions to them and functions in the sentence. So I'm. I'm honestly not perfect at that. The. One of the biggest challenges I had is that Mongolian people are not used to hearing Mongolian spoken badly in English. We are so used to so many accents and so many. So many people from around the world trying to speak English. And our ear automatically, like, helps people because we. We interpret. And so, yeah, we feel in the blanks, but Mongolian people do not. If you do not pronounce it exactly correctly, they don't get it. So there's like the. The word for face is noor. No, wait, I still struggle with this. Word for face is noor. And the word for lake is nor. And so I was on a horse track, and one of our guides from the countryside, we came over a rise, and there's this beautiful lake. And I was like, yeah, Norway. I snob. That's what I meant to say, which means, what a beautiful lake. But what I said was, Yamurgoi Norway, which means, what a beautiful face. And he looked at me, and he was serious. He was like, whose face? Mine? And I was like, no, no, the lake. Like, and even in context, it's very obvious that that's what we. That's what I meant, but they don't.

Warwick Schiller (59:32)

They don't have, they're not used to that. So they would take it at. They're quite literal.

Julie Velou (59:36)

Whatever you say, that's what they understand. Which has got me into trouble a few times. But, yeah, so the, the journey, the struggle was real. But the, the funny part about it is that the, the company, one of the, one of the perks for being a foreign person there is they used to, they used to allow you to have as many hours of language lessons as you would like, and they would pay for it. And Most people did 10 or 20, you know, because they just wanted to get able to say, you know, stop, go. How much is this? Whatever. But I, I'm, you know, I'm different and I love the culture. I'm a bit of a sort of amateur anthropologist sort of person. And so I really wanted to understand the culture. And then, so I, I ended up doing four hours a week for four years. And so now they have a maximum of 50 hours. And I think I caused a company. I, I take credit for that. I do. I, I, for sure. So I ended up getting to be really good friends with Sarah. And then I, you know, we ended up getting a gear. I asked Sarah to help us get a gear, and we ended up getting a gear out on their land and they had a small trekking company, and so we had the gear there and we would go out there on the weekends, which was, you know, a really lovely way to get away from the city and everything. And I would watch these little kids go thundering by. I don't know. I'm sure you've seen the Mongolian children out there. Like, they're astonishing. And so, so the interesting thing is I'd never ridden a horse before I went to Mongolia, so the first time I rode a horse, I was 50. And, and that was, that was as a result of watching these kids and realizing that if I wanted to understand the culture, I had to sit on the back of a horse. And so I did. And I was terrified. I was really terrified of horses. That's why I never ridden. And there was, there was no. The only hidden clue that there was that I was in any way, shape or form. Horse person is my mother. And I used to love to watch the show jump. And so that was, that was a clue. But, but anyway, I got on the horse and then when he started walking, it was like, honestly, I, you know, people, it was like, you know, Tetris, when, when everything is right and it's exposing. I was just like, oh my God, this is how it's supposed to be. This is like suddenly like all of this, like vast expanse of human history with the horses. It just, it just the rightness of it was so obvious to me that I was like, I, I need to do more of this. And I'm at about 50,000 kilometers now. And that's because like you said, for the Gobi Gallop and the Blue Totem Expeditions. So the Gobi Gallop started because when I started to learn to ride. So Baggy, who's he and Sarah own horse track Mongolia. Baggy friends of mine were going riding and I wanted to tag along and I asked him if it was okay and they said sure. So I asked Buggy in my halted, then halting Mongolian if it was okay if I came along. And he looked at me with this very funny look. And he said, do you want to ride or do you really want to learn to ride? And I said, I really want to learn to ride. And he was like, okay. So we went on a three hour ride and we trotted and I was on a lead and he set up my stirrups like Mongolians. So they were like really short, really short.

Warwick Schiller (62:44)

I bet your knees and your ankles were killing.

Julie Velou (62:47)

And I'd never ridden that. And so my knees, my ankles were the least of my problems. I learned how to stand fairly soon into that. And he never once looked back. Never once. And we've laughed about it a lot since then because it's like he was like, he was waiting for me to say something and I didn't say anything. So he just assumed it was okay. And I didn't want to be the one because my friends were there and they were really, really good writers. You know, Robin had been writing for 60 years at this point, and her family was there, they were great. And so afterwards she said to me, you know, like, that was amazing, Amazing what you just did. That was absolutely heroic. And of course I don't, I wouldn't be like, oh, well, no big deal, right? I was like, well, it's not, you know, it's not like everybody wasn't doing that. Like, everybody was doing it. So, like, why should I be special? She said, nobody was doing that. She said, nobody, Nobody trots for three hours. She said. We were walking and then cantering to catch up and, and taking bets on how long you would last. I was like, thanks a lot. So that was the beginning of it. And then I, you know, I, I, like, I said, I just, I became a horse person overnight, which was grossly unfair to my husband, but there you go.

Warwick Schiller (63:46)

And he didn't sign on for that, did he?

Julie Velou (63:49)

He did not. He did not. You see, you know what? Life brings adventures, right? So we. Yeah, I ended up one day the. The following year, we were out riding, and there was. There's a mountain that you can see from our home base that's always covered in snow. And it was. It's just beautiful. And so I asked Boggy one day, you know, is it possible to ride there? And he was like, like, sure, why not? So he set up a trek and we, four of us did this. This trek out into the wilderness and tenting. And it was. It was really, really challenging. But I didn't know it was really challenging at the time because I didn't have enough of a repertoire to draw on to realize how difficult it was. But it was technically very challenging. Lots and lots of bog, lots of steep up and down hills, lots of crazy stuff. And I fell in love with, like, I've always loved the outdoors, but this is like a whole new level. To be able to be, like, out there, there's no people, all of the stars, there's no light pollution. The horses are amazing. The Mongolians watching them with their horses, the horsemanship, the culture, all of it, just unbelievable. And they're so calm and centered and capable, and it's just like, we should all be so lucky as to be as common, centered and capable as Mongolian herdsmen. And so then I. After that trek, I came back to the city and I was sitting around with a bunch of my friends, you know, at the pub, and I was just, like, raving about it, and along with two or three of the girls who had gone with me. And one of the guys that was sitting there worked at the mine where my husband worked. And he said he'd always wanted to ride motorcycle down to the mine, but he was also a great equestrian from Australia. And he said, but maybe we could, you know, maybe we could ride horses. So I went back super excited, talked to Sarah and Baggy, and then, I mean, the story of the first Gobi Gallup. We don't have time for it. It was just. You can just imagine that it turned out, like. So that the. The mine was 706km away from the start camp. That's how we came up with 700km. We did it in nine days. I added an extra day, you know, for logistical issues. And so after we. After we rode down there and like, in the middle, our horses refused to go because they wouldn't well, they kept going, but they wouldn't drink the Gobi water because it's very salty. And so Baggy called me onto the support bus, and he was like, you know, we can go for another day or two, but then the horses will die. I was like, let's not kill horses. That's a bad idea. So we ended up swapping those horses out for Gobi horses. Like, that's. Again, we don't have time for that. But only in Mongolia could you just phone somebody up and say, we need. We need 14 horses and a herder, and we'll pay you when we get back to the city. And they like, okay, that seems like a good idea. And so they did. So we rode these other unknown horses for the second half.

Warwick Schiller (66:33)

So they were. They were horses from that area from the Gobi. It was. See that When. When we did the camel thing, you know, it was. It was 10 days. We. The first day we. We rode 5km down the road to a camel festival and back again. So that wasn't really counted, but so basically it was nine days. And we rode the three different sets of camels. And the area that we rode across in the first three days, that's where those camels came from. And then the same thing the second day and the third day. So, you know, the middle section was mountainous, and so they were mountain camels. So we didn't take Flatland camels up the mountain. You didn't take the mountain camels on the flatland. You sound like you did something similar there. Those horses were used to that water.

Julie Velou (67:13)

Yeah, yeah. Our horses will go with a goby now because they've been a bunch of times because of the goby gallop. But basically, the first go began with this ride to the. Oh, you told guide to the mine was. It was the brainchild of Steve. And we all were like, immediately like, yes, let's do it. And we didn't even know at that point if we could. If it was possible. And there were. We didn't. It was before gps. I mean, the GPS was nascent, was very, very new. And so it was an adventure on so many levels. And what we got there. We got to the. We got to the mine, and they. They did a big party for us, which is where the Gobi Gallop Gala has come from. And we raised about $4,000 for the. For the charity. It didn't start out as a charity ride. It was just going to be an adventure. But Steve was like, we totally should make this, you know, to support the Charity. We were in the process of, you know, building the first kindergarten then. And so then afterwards I was like, you know, that was. That was amazing. And I'm, I'm. It's a good way to raise money. And I wonder if any other crazy horse people out in the world would like to come and experience true, true, like, authentic Mongolian endurance riding and do 700 kilometers in 10 days. So I, like, literally just sort of put it on Facebook. And people wanted to. And so they did, and we have, and we've done it every year. And so this is like our. This is 20, 26 will be our 14th year. So, yeah, 15th year coming up next year. And so it's like, it really is. You know, everybody thinks about Mongolia. They think about the Derby, everybody. And so we have had a bit of a battle to try and overcome the reputation of the Derby, because among horses are not intrinsically as crazy as they are on the Derby. Mostly among the horses are really great, great horses because it's a. It's a great culture. And so safety is a really big deal to us. Well, to me, especially because part of when you learn to ride, I don't know, I'm assuming that you probably learn to ride younger than me. You were probably quite young. And so everybody who's learned to ride as a child, they have this memory of thundering across the paddock, you know, bareback and crazy and doing all these things. And so they have. They have a very different frame of reference when it comes to safety. But for me, because I learned, like, terrified at 50, safety is a big deal. And so, you know, and, and we do have great horses that are ridden red ridden all winter, they're fed all winter, so that, you know, in June when we do the Gobi Gallop, they're. They're fit and, and ready to go. They're. They're still bungling horses. They're still forward moving and, you know, they're not plodding along. But they're also, you know, we don't. We give them the saddles that they're used to with two girths, not just one girth. And, you know, we don't have backpacks on the back and we have a support vehicle so people can carry their stuff. And it's way more about experiencing, like I said, Mongolian culture and traditional insurance. And it's about, like, connecting to the land and to the people, into the history and. But 700 km in 10 days is still a long way. And so it's, It's a big challenge for people. And we have, it's, it's remarkable. I've done it every year and so I've done it fit, I've done it unfit, I've done it, you know, every year as I, as I go on, I, I'm a better writer than I was previously. And so I've done it like the first year that I did it, I bear, I'd barely been riding a year the first time when we went down to the, the Gobi Desert and it was, it was a huge challenge for me. It was actually the same year that our son passed away. And so it was like he'd only passed away a couple of months before. So I was emotionally and psychologically like a complete wreck. And I'd only been riding for less than a year or just over a year at that point. And so. Huh.

Warwick Schiller (70:56)

So I have a question about that. Because you had only been riding a year, you probably at that point in time couldn't just ride a horse on autopilot. So you think about the, the, the grief stricken mental state you would have been in. Do you find that doing that ride was actually helpful? Because hugely you had to stop thinking about your son and focus on what you're doing was if, if you did it now, if you did it now, you could probably do the whole ride and still have your mind somewhere else.

Julie Velou (71:38)

It's like I always say like horse, horseback riding's like saved my life. It's my, it's my safe place and my happy place. And you know, I am so lucky that like when I get on my horse and go, I tell everybody I learned to ride in a 12 million acre arena. And so it's like it's a big one. And yeah, we've had, I've had, you know, lots of adventurous sort of situations with horses because when you ride 50,000 kilometers, you know things are going to happen. But you're 100% correct. That and I see it over and over again with people who come and go on. A lot of people who come on the Go Big Gal do it because they're going through a difficult time in their life and they need something like a complete reset. They need a big challenge. They need something that will take them outside of their own treadmill or a cycle or circle or you know, whatever spiral, if you will. And to get them like it's a hard reset in many ways to. And you know, the thing is everybody who does the Go Big gallop, and I do mean everybody gets really, really tired. So even people who are in really, really good riding ship. Very few people have done like 10 days of, you know, 45 kilometers in 45 miles. Very few people have done that. And so at some point we had, we had one lady come who was sort of like a professional marathon runner. Actually she came out on the date on day six and she was like, this is like running a marathon and then getting up the next day and running another one and then getting up the next day and running another one. And I'm like, yes it is. And so you, you actually, you, you kind of with that the complete fatigue and exhaustion that you, that you go through, you access parts of you that you know, many people maybe have never accessed or haven't accessed for a long time. And so there's like when I interview people because people have to apply to go on the goodby gallop. When I interview people, one of the things that I tell people is that, you know, everybody breaks on Kobe Gallop. Everybody. Some people do it loudly and publicly, some people do it like quietly and privately. But everybody breaks. And it's just because you're in this very unfamiliar situation, very, very vulnerable through like fatigue and you know, you all, everybody. When you're riding a horse, it's not your horse or that you haven't ridden before that you don't know. There's a, that there's a degree of anxiety and tension about what, what is this horse like you're, you're super on your guard. And so there's like all of these things combined. And also the other thing I think is really critical is that because on the go together we ride for 10, 10 to 14 hours a day basically the occasional day we're finished in eight hours, but usually it's, it's usually 10 and sometimes as much as 14, sort of depending on, on Mongolia, on, on the weather. And what happens one time, one time part of the scouted route was that we were supposed to cross a bridge. And so we got to the bridge and there was a very nice car sized hole in the middle of the bridge. And so we were like, we're not going to go across that. So that meant we had to like then go to a crossing place which was 15 kilometers down and then we had to come 15 kilometers back. And so as things happen, but the, the one of the things that happens I think is that you have all of this time and silence to think about things that, you know, modern world doesn't allow us time to think much anymore. You know, nobody, nobody gets bored anymore. Like you got the TV you got the phone, you got the screen. You know, you don't. You just don't have time to think and so to be able to do that. And, you know, like, I. I can really wax lyrical about it because it's like you just feel this connection between the earth and the sky and the horse, and you can feel the conduit between all of the elements going through you and this, like, this rightness of being part of this unbroken history of horse and people. And you can really. You really feel this connection. Horses, in a way that I think a lot of people in the world really struggle. They want to find this connection. They want to feel this, like, sort of oneness with the horse as a, you know, as a. As a partner, as a. As a, you know, as a species, if you will. And when you get to Mongolia and you're out there and there is nothing else, and the horses are astonishing. Like, I am completely blown away. We have. We have so many of our horses that have done this 10, 15, 10 or 12 times, and you can find you. They know it too. So Baggy, what he does is, like, he brings along young horses just on a lead or running free with a herd, because when. Because we have two horses per rider. Like, there's also a free herd that runs along with you, which is really, really beautiful when you're tired and your knees hurt is just to watch these horses in their natural environment being horses and doing what they do and, like, thundering along beside you. It's spectacular.

Warwick Schiller (76:03)

My wife and I went to Iceland last year and rode horses in Iceland. And it's the same thing. You have about 70 loose horses going with you. And like. Yeah, it just is.

Julie Velou (76:14)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (76:14)

It doesn't matter how many times you see that.

Julie Velou (76:17)

It's just right.

Warwick Schiller (76:19)

Oh, inspiring. You know, it's. Yeah, it's amazing. Like, you don't. You don't get sick of watching no herds of horses move along. No, no, no.

Julie Velou (76:26)

My retirement plan, when I'm a little old lady, I've told Psych and Zola, who are Sara Magi sons, and they. They've come and lived with us in Canada as. And, you know, they all spent time with us, and we. We took care of them and stuff. And I've told them that the only payback they have to give me is they have to get my backside on a horse as long as I'm able to, you know, and so. But the. The ultimate plan, when I can no longer do it, is just to sit and watch. And so I have. I have a Bunch of horses in Mongolia and so that I could sit and watch horses all day long. I mean, it's not as great as riding, but it's close. And so, you know. Yeah, I know. So, you know, the thing is, like, so people, when they're. When they're in this environment, so foreign from their. Their day to day people, there's a lot of personal growth that happens. There's a lot of opportunity for. It's not just a cool, exciting adventure. It's certainly that. It's certainly like. It fills up your horse riding bucket for sure. And so, so anyway, so the. The Gobi Gallup is also fundraiser for the foundation. So pretty much everything I do, if you talk to me long enough, you will figure out pretty much everything I do is like, chib to take care of the kids. It's a fundraiser. Yeah. So people carry on. No, no, I was just gonna. I was gonna go into the funding.

Warwick Schiller (77:36)

Scheme, fundraiser for the foundation, and you were talking about the personal growth that happens on that. And, you know, I imagine most people don't sign up knowing that's gonna happen. They're gonna sign up for the adventure. But, you know, there's a lady I had on the podcast, Stevie Delahunt, and so she cruised for the Mongol. Mongol Derby, and she cruised for the Gaucho Derby, and at the start of the Gaucho Derby two years ago when I did it, you know, Stevie makes a speech at start camp the day that you're starting about. I've met all of you pre Gaucho Derby. I'm really excited to meet you again post Gaucho Derby because you will not be the same human.

Julie Velou (78:22)

Right, right, right. True. Really true.

Warwick Schiller (78:25)

And I think she makes the same speech at the start of the. The Mongol Derby too. But yeah, it's like that. You. You. I. We actually had. I had a podcast guest. We've had some podcast summits. So we have guests come and present on stage over, you know, three days until story, whatever. But there was. There was a lady, she was a marine mammal trainer here in the US but she moved to England to become a Buddhist nun. We had a. She's fascinating. Jennifer Zeligs, but we had a podcast summit in England, and I was sitting with her on stage at the podcast summit, and we're talking about something, and she looked at me and she said, you will not survive this conversation. I was like, what? She goes, at the end of this conversation, this conversation will have changed you in some ways. So you will not survive this conversation. And I Was like one of those, wow, you will not survive this conversation. Well, it's the same thing with the Gabby Gacha Derby. Whatever. Like, you will not you. The current incarnation of you, right, the.

Julie Velou (79:28)

You that is you today will not be you.

Warwick Schiller (79:30)

Yes, you will. You will not survive this.

Julie Velou (79:33)

No, no, that's a, that's a very good way of putting it. That's a very good way of putting it. So the, yeah, so the Gobi Gallop is, is, is my baby. And we have. So people pay. It's, it's just, it's right around $5,000 to come and do the go Big Gallop. And then they have to raise 4, $500 for the foundation and then there's a 500 registration fee. So it works out to be about $10,000. But the. We, you know, and how many do you have? So we normally, we normally have. So 20 is sort of the maximum, but we've reduced that over the last couple of years because we started a sister ride, which is the Steel horse Gallop. So the steel horse Gallop is a motorcycle ride. So what we do is like, and because we, we had so many requests for this, honestly, so many horse ride back riding people, they have a, like a friend, a sister, a brother, a father, an aunt, uncle, somebody who doesn't ride horses, but rides motorbikes. And so it's like, so we, we started to do that basically so you could have a really great vacation together, but separately, because the motorbike riders do not come with us, I always have to tell horse people that is, we camp together, we share a campsite. They do 140km off road, give or take, every day. Well, while we do our 70 and so you meet at night. Yeah. Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (80:47)

That is cool, right?

Julie Velou (80:50)

It is, it's super cool.

Warwick Schiller (80:51)

Steel horse ride is what's cool.

Julie Velou (80:52)

No, Steel horse gallop.

Warwick Schiller (80:54)

Oh, you still have scallop. Wow.

Julie Velou (80:55)

Yeah, so we have, yeah, so we do the, that we use Royal Enfields. So we have Royal Enfields.

Warwick Schiller (81:02)

Really?

Julie Velou (81:02)

Yeah. Himalayan bikes. And so we got get this amazingly great guide who has been like a wildlife photographer for National Geographic and whatnot. And so he's gone all over Mongolia on a motorbike. And so he's a big supporter of the foundation. And so he, he comes in as the guide and helps put together these absolutely stunning routes for the, for the motor motorcyclists. So. And then at the end of it, at the end of all of it, we do the Gobi Gallop. And now it's, now it's The Gobi and Steelhorse Gallop Gala. And so there's a big, there's a big party, sort of the event of the season, if you will, in Ubatar. And so.

Warwick Schiller (81:39)

Oh, it's. When you get back.

Julie Velou (81:40)

When you get back. Yeah. So there's a big. We get 300 people or 400 people come and we have a, you know, it's a big charity gala, as you would imagine. And so the stars of the gala are the, are the riders. And so they get their awards and all the rest of it. And then there's like tons of entertainment and you know, charity auction. We auction off. Everybody who comes and does the Gobi Gallop has to do at least 20km in a Mongolian saddle. The, the wooden one. And so, yeah, like the one behind.

Warwick Schiller (82:06)

Me, they put the little studs in it. So you got to stand up.

Julie Velou (82:12)

You don't have to stand up. Like, honestly, if you are you not.

Warwick Schiller (82:15)

We're holding yourself with those.

Julie Velou (82:16)

You do not. You do not feel them. You do not really. No, it's like I actually ride exclusively in a Mongolian saddle. So the one behind me is actually kind of a fancy saddle. So the one that I ride in is a working saddle. So the back of it is a different shape. It's not as high and it, and it's different. And so yeah, you don't, you don't feel those conchos or whatever you would like to call them. You don't feel them. And actually so the, the people on the Gobi Gallop are required to do at least 20km in this so they can learn how to ride Mongolian. And I have one made that is like for western people's size, you know, this, this one here is Mongolian straight. It straight from the black market we were talking about earlier, which, the horse section in the black market. I'm sure, I'm sure you got to the horse section in the black market when you were there. It's like mind blowingly fabulous. And we have.

Warwick Schiller (83:04)

The whole black market's fab. I mean you could buy, you could buy a whole kitchen, like, like prefab cabinets for kids. Oh, you could buy a washing machine. You could buy saddles. You could buy anything.

Julie Velou (83:17)

Anything that you can think of, you can buy it there. I know. And so, but I have a, I have a saddle maker who makes them, like sort of for the western, for the western body. And then at the gala, everybody has to do at least 20 kilometers. And it's, it always amazes me. Part of it is because it's not for torture. It's so that people will understand and appreciate Mongolian endurance culture and they will see. Mostly it's because so many people said that they're like instruments of torture. And I was like, if you, if you actually ride one, you will see that it actually is pretty great. And I learned to ride in a different. Like a sort of a normal settle. But now I only ride in my motherly saddle. It's like so much better. But the. But so then everybody rides in it, and then we auction it off at the gala and make some money for the foundation. And then some people are just like, they just fall in love with it. There was one guy actually, the first time he came to do the Gobi Gallup. He's been a couple of times now. He. His uncles heard about this and they. They said that they would donate an extra $10,000. They would get together and donate extra $10,000 if he did the whole whole thing in a Mongolian saddle. So he did, which is that. That is a superhero effort, like if you've never ridden in a Mongolian saddle, just to arrive and do like 700km in 10 days in one. And then he came back the second time and he wanted by. By the end of it, he loved the saddle, and so he. He did the second one entirely in that as well. And so then the. The Blue Wolf Totem Expedition, which this, the. The one that we're doing this year, the 4,000kilometer one is called the Blue Tunnel Totem Expedition on the trail of the ancients. And this is going to be the last one that I do. The last long one. The last is 120 days. And it takes a lot of time and effort to. To get the route, you know, set out and marked and the logistics figured out. But I put it out there to people who are joining us. How many of you would like to do this in a traditional saddle? And almost everybody is doing it in traditional saddle. So I have. I have five or six saddles being crafted for this Blue Wolf Totem Expedition.

Warwick Schiller (85:13)

So It's a. 120 days.

Julie Velou (85:16)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (85:17)

And how many people go on that?

Julie Velou (85:20)

We. We have. We have nine. We have nine people. There's. So one of the ladies who actually did the first Blue Wolf Totem Expedition, which we did in 20, 22. That was three months. That was 3,600 kilometers. She, one of the ladies who did that one is coming back for the, the long ride. But, but, you know, for a variety of personal circumstances, she's not able to do the first. The full ride. She can only do the last half of it. So we opened up the beginning to two people for a one month section, which we don't. We. We don't normally do and I wouldn't normally do if it wasn't Betsy. Betsy's like, she's become a really grand, great friend and she's a huge part of the foundation now. And she's just, she's in the middle of having. Writing her memoir and when you need to read it, she's an amazing human being. But so because of that, we have a couple of people that are coming just for a month at a time. So that. So the number is. We have. I think it's nine, eight or nine people for the full ride. And then there's a couple of spare people that. Spare people. Sorry, if you guys hear this, you're not spare.

Warwick Schiller (86:19)

How many, how many of these heads have you done? The. The Blue Wolf. The.

Julie Velou (86:23)

We did the. This is only the second one, so.

Warwick Schiller (86:25)

The second one.

Julie Velou (86:26)

Yeah. So the Blue Wolf Totem expedition, the first one in 2022, was an experiment kind of same like the go being out to see what it was like to go on a really long ride. And so we mapped out the route. So I like, I said I'm sort of anthropologically inclined. So the route, when we mapped it out, the first, the first ride, it was like zigzag, zigzag. And it was because we sat down, we decided we're going to do this long ride and we sat down with the guides and said, what is one place among you that you've never been to that you've always wanted to? So they said where they wanted to go. And then we made a route that would fit that. And then for me, like, the thing is, like, I want to, I want to make it as awesome and amazing and extraordinary as I can. And so as we're scouting the route, every time, like where we were going, we would, every time we saw an old guy on a horse in the field, we would stop and ask him, like, what's cool around here that people don't know about. And so as a result, we found so many things. So it's all about the history and it's all about the fact. What I love is like when we go past like deer stones, for example, I don't know if you got to see deer stones while you were in Mongolia. You should have. Deer stones are like. So they're Bronze Age monuments that are, they have stylized deer on them. They look like stone pillars. Basically. They range Sort of. Sort of between 4 and 10ft tall. And they have stylized years on them. And so the deer stones are. They're this beautiful, beautiful message from the ancestors, if you will, that nobody really knows who built them or why exactly. But most of them have deer on it. And then there's a line above the deer demarking like heaven from earth, they think. And then above the line there's this sun on one side and a moon on the other. And often below the deer there's another band and underneath there's like the underworld. And so they are. They don't exist only in Mongolia, but what, 90 or something of the deer stones on the planet are in Mongolia. And they are. They're not just beautiful, they're like mystical somehow. The work that the people went put in to make these, these are not small things, I think they're not as big as Stonehenge, but they're sort of shaped like Stonehenge or the standing stones that you have like, you know, all over Great Britain. And so. But the carving that is in them is remark. They're not all the same. They're different artists had different, you know, abilities or it was done for different reasons. And they're often. They're often found together with herixers. So herixers are the Bronze Age monument which depending on where you are in Mongolia, they have different functions or different uses. So in the north they were burial sites for no noblemen. But in the rest, they think they were. They marked the place where the clans would gather. And so they were largely ceremonial. You know, like you can't, you know, if you're going to meet. If you're going to meet your other. Your other tribe, you need. There's. There's no marker, so you have to make your own. So they are these huge piles of stone and then they have either a circle or a square around them. About depends on how big the head exterior is. Some of them are quite small, but some of them are like 70 or 80 meters across. And then they, they're like. And then at the corners or they have like the out parts, like there's like a little pile of stones at each of the corners that when they've excavated them, they have offerings in there, often a horse head or feet. And so probably there was feasting and all of that sort of stuff done. So all of this stuff. One of the things that I love, I love that when you ride past the deer stone and you. You see it and you're just like, oh my God, this is Amazing. I wonder what this is. And you know, you know that Genghis Khan, most of your people would call him Genghis Khan, but I just can't anymore. You know, he rode past there as well. And when. I wonder what this is. It's cool.

Warwick Schiller (90:08)

So there's this like, think about that. It's been there so long that.

Julie Velou (90:12)

Right.

Warwick Schiller (90:12)

Genghis Khan. Let's talk about the Genghis Khan thing real quick. So the, I think the Anglicized version of his name is Genghis Khan, but it's actually Genghis Khan. And in Mongolia he is. You know, the rest of the world thinks he was this marauding guy who killed and raped and pillaged or whatever, but the Mongolians think he's what? What?

Julie Velou (90:34)

Like he's, he's, he's is like one step removed from God and, and it.

Warwick Schiller (90:39)

Yes, that's what they think. Yeah, it's a very small yes.

Julie Velou (90:44)

And you know, to be fair, from the reading that I've done, most of the really horrible atrocities were, were committed by his children. He wasn't a friendly guy. He was perfectly capable of committing atrocities. But he gave people at least the option of not being killed, you know, and so, but he every, everybody's grandpa, everybody is. It's hard to overstate. Ching Ashana. So like even I don't know if you've, if you've been to or you heard about the Nadams ceremony that they have the celebration of the three men the arts on the 11th, 12th and 13th of July every year. So the Nadam is amazing. Like so the Nadam is. Well it's just what I said, it's the celebration of the three manly arts. So this is like the big horse race. And so all of the little students, all of the little villages in town, they will all have their own mini naadam, their own little local naadam. And so they will have horse racing where the jockeys are the children and they're supposed to be 12 and up and they're all supposed to wear helmets. Most of them are, most of them are five or six. And very often the helmet ends up being a whip to hit the horse with. It's like it's not really. They're not used as well in the national anatom. They do enforce the helmet wearing rule, but they still often take them off halfway through. The national Anatom is basically anybody can enter. So you would think that it would be, you know, you have to win a local race to be able to enter in the big race that's not true. Anyone can enter if you have the entry fee. And so there's a. There's a whole huge subculture of like, horsemen who are training their horses to become natum horses. It's like everywhere with horse racing, there's gambling and money.

Warwick Schiller (92:17)

How long is the nadam? How long is the horse race?

Julie Velou (92:20)

So it's like depending on how old the horses are, it's between 28 and 32 kilometers. And so it's a long way. So the, they, they trot out and then they race back. So the 32km includes the trotting out and the racing back. So it's like 16, like galloping, but before the 16 galloping, you have to do the 16 to get out. And.

Warwick Schiller (92:40)

But the race starts when they come back.

Julie Velou (92:42)

Yeah, the race starts when they come back. Although there's a, there's a whole, there's a. There's a point at which they drop the, the, you know, the start, the start gate or they drop the rope, the start line or whatever. And if you haven't made it to the start point at that point, you still have to get to the start point. So there's a lot of jockeying to be at the start point first without tearing out your horse. So there's a lot of tactical part about the getting out and then the racing. Is it coming back?

Warwick Schiller (93:11)

So I have seen. I don't know if they're all anatom, but I have. When we did the camel thing, we went to the first day, went to a camel festival and camel races.

Julie Velou (93:22)

Sure.

Warwick Schiller (93:22)

And so we got in, all the camels left.

Julie Velou (93:24)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (93:25)

We headed off in a direction and a while later we got in cars and we drove out there to where they got to where they turned around and then the camera race started.

Julie Velou (93:31)

Yeah, yeah, Similar thing. So. So that, there's that and then there's archery and then there's the Mongolian wrestling. So these three manly sports. The. This celebration started with Genghis Hannah. So he initiated the original Nadam, I think, basically because he had a lot of bored soldiers. And so if you have, I don't know, 20,000 or 30,000 or however many young soldiers that he had, you know, you put them to. Put them to work fighting each other or racing each other, you know, doing something. And so when you go to the national Nadam, it's like they bring out the standards of Genghisan. So the standards like that, I don't even know. I guess you call them standards, you know, I don't know if you've seen A picture of them on a pole with. With, like, the horse hair. They're circular, and then they have, like, a crown at the top, and then the horse tail hair is on the bottom. And so Ching, his Han very famously had white one and a black one. And so if he put the white one out in front of his gear when he was marauding, it meant he wanted to have a conversation with you, and you had the option to come and talk and. And basically surrender and be spared. And then if you put the black one out, you. That was bad day. That was a bad day. That was, we're going to kill all of you. And so the white standards, I think there's nine of them. The. The Them. And they're supposed to be the ones actually of Ching Ashan. I don't know if they are or not, but people tell me they are. So they. They come up with great pomp and ceremony, and they say, on the 806th anniversary or 12th anniversary or whatever of the great Mongol Empire, we celebrate this. And so, like, it's. It's enshrined into everything. Everybody knows how many years it's been since Genghis Khan was elected or, you know, was called Ching Ashan before he, you know, when he went from being Temujin to being the Hannah. That was 800 and however many years.

Warwick Schiller (95:16)

Ago, I heard a story when I was in Mongolia that Genghis Khan died when his horse spooked and he was thrown from his horse. Is that true?

Julie Velou (95:30)

I've. I have heard. I have heard that version of it that he was injured. I've also heard that it was a jury like that. I think it's true that he was injured falling off a horse, but there's. There's various stories as to whether or not it was because the horse spooked or because he was in a fight or in, you know, army, whatever. And the interesting thing that I. That I love about Mongolian horsemen is this. You know, you would think that this would somehow be, like, shame that you fell off when your horse spoke. But it's not like they. The. They're like horsemen, like those of us that came to horseback riding late in life, expected, expect, you know, I. I'm not anymore. But in the beginning, I was like. I was always kind of mortified when I fell off, like I'd done something terribly wrong. And they're just like, no, no, Julie, you're gonna fall off. Like, there's no. There's no not falling off if you're riding. And so I've Seen them fall off, you know, in a few different circumstances and whatnot. And they, they're. I don't know how to describe how little they care about it then how much they understand that this is just, just a normal. It's just part of it, right? Actually, when I was learning to ride, when I decided I was going to learn to ride, I did, I think what most people do, I googled it, learning to ride a horse. And there was a website or blog or something by some old cowboy somewhere in America. And big headline across it said, so you want to ride a horse? And underneath it said you're going to fall off. And then underneath that it said, if you don't want to fall off, don't ride a horse. And I actually, literally, I sat and looked at it for a couple of hours because I was like, like I'm 50. I don't, you know, I don't want to fall off. But the good news is in Mongolian, falling off a horse, the way the expression basically means being born onto the land. And so you, their, their tradition or their culture is that you own the land that you, wherever you fall off, that's your, that's. That piece of Mongolia is yours. I'm, I am land barren in Mongolia. I have a lot of, I've got a lot of really small spots, a lot.

Warwick Schiller (97:33)

You're a land baron. I love this amateur anthropologist part of you because that's. All that stuff about different countries fascinates me. Tell me more about the, Some of the cool stuff you've learned about Mongolia being this. Having this amateur anthropologist bent about you.

Julie Velou (97:50)

Oh, man. How much time do you have? So the, so one of the things that you know, the study of, of peoples when you, when you go riding as much as I've gone riding and you see the spots where big important things happened and it's a hundred percent guaranteed if there's a long valley with a little river down it and a lot of grasslands that if you hunt around in there, you're going to find petroglyphs or deer stones or herrick sores or, you know, stuff from the Turkey, the Turkic people. Stones. The. What's a good campsite now? Was a good campsite then. And it is so like when you, when you do it enough time, you can start to actually see like there's a, there's a place where, I know historically this place Genghis Khan gathered the tribes to talk to them about uniting. You know, it's like, it's one, like one of the sites where it was sort of the birthplace of the Mongol Empire. And you look at it and you can see that, the geography of it. And like, you think about these guys came. They didn't come in there, you know, in their Land Cruisers. They all came on horseback. They, they were coming a long way. They brought their herds, they brought their gears, they brought their families. There's dogs and they need some, you know, like, there's just. So they spread out across the whole valley and they had sort of the parlay about it. And so they're at this particular point that I'm thinking about the place where Ching has parked his. His gear, which, I'm sorry, now you've got a.

Warwick Schiller (99:22)

Now you get a thumbs up. So before when I was talking about something, the balloons came up on the screen. And right then when you tell me about where Chingus parked his gear, some thumbs up came on the screen. So the computer's liking the game. The Genghis Khan story.

Julie Velou (99:37)

Okay, well, this is good. This is really good. But they like, so they, they have like. So the, the over overwhelming religion during the time of Genghis Han was shamanism or, you know, it was animist religion. And so the Buddhist religion actually was brought to Mongolia sort of by the Chinese to try and make Mongolian less warlike. And so it didn't work. They just made the Buddhism warlike. But anyway, it was a good, it was a good effort. It could have worked, but it didn't. So, but so the shamanistic point of, you know, like, so the blue wolf totem, why the blue totem is called the blue totem is because the, the Mongolian creation myth is that Genghis Han, that he. He is family, sprang from the union in the heavens of a blue wolf and a red deer. And so it's really interesting when you start connecting that to the deer stones and whether or not the deer stones have some play as to why that is the creation myth, don't know. But so. And then he took the blue wolf for his personal totem. And the shamanistic belief is really deeply ingrained into their. Their culture and their histories. And so the shamanistic belief that in Mongolia at least is that they believe that the spirits of the land actually live in the land and that they have these like, ley lines, basically, where the spirit of like from one place can go to the other place if there's a ley line through the earth for it. And so I don't know if you saw awas when you were in Mongolia, people, Western people call them ovos.

Warwick Schiller (101:11)

Yeah, the piles of stones.

Julie Velou (101:13)

It's pronounced awa. So. But the. Yeah, the piles of stone. So the. So the piles of stone are either shamanistic or Buddhistic. The Buddhist also adopted this policy, and so the. They. This is.

Warwick Schiller (101:27)

Most ones I saw had like, blue flags hanging off them. So I'm not Buddhist.

Julie Velou (101:32)

The shamans also you. But the shamans usually use a variety of multicolored flags on it. But it's. It's more to do with the shape. If there's a lot of. If there's a lot of trees piled up around it, then it's probably. It's probably shaman. And if it's just a pile of rocks with a single pole, it's probably Buddhist. But not necessarily. I'm not even like a hundred percent. I'm always asking my Mongolian friends, is this Buddhist or shaman, because, well, I.

Warwick Schiller (101:56)

Didn'T see a whole lot of trees in Mongolia where it was.

Julie Velou (101:58)

No, no. And that's why it's a big deal if there's one in there. So. But the. The tradition originated actually as a. From. From King Son. So the. The armies. When the armies left, each man would go to his spot, like his shaman spot. So the families and communities will have their own sacred spots that are their shaman spots. It's basically where they go, you know, to speak to God. And I think it's quite wonderful that there. It's often on a ridgeline or up close to heaven. And so, you know, the land of the eternal blue sky tingri is a big, big part of their. They worship the heavens in a very real way. And so they would go to the spot and they would leave a stone in a pile to show that they were gone. And when they came back from the wars, they would go and take a stone away. And so you could always tell how many men were missing from a community by how big they. The pile of stones was. And so that. That was a. A very big part of their prayer for all of the things that men still pray about. And women now a lot when they go off to war, you know, the. You know, the. Be well that my family is safe, that I'm safe. And one of the things that also has happened is from. From the time of Ching Chan, is that, you know, he really empowered women to run the whole place while he was off marauding. And so Mongolian women became. They're. They're very, very, very strong culturally. And, you know, in the community, the. The women have a very prominent and significant role. And in fact, you know, with our charity thing, when we have, you Know, some people want to donate to, for women's education. And then I have to tell them that, you know, in fact, traditionally women are better educated in Mongolian than the boys are. And this all goes back to Qingzhan and to this whole equality thing. And then, and part of that I think is rooted in the shamanism that anybody who's lived off the land understands the great equalizing factor of the land and mother nature and so the things you have no control over. And so, so then, yeah, so the, that the AWA system, you know, the people with their AWA system now it's. It. Every time I see it, I, I think back like to Genghis Han. And then also like the, the, the Herix source, which is a, it's a similar thing, but that's from the Bronze Age. The headaches are the big pile of stone with the, like with a circle or a square around it. And a lot of the deer stones were actually built on top of the, or in conjunction with the. The headaches are complex. And so you look at, you know, there's. When we did the Blue Wolf ToTEM expedition in 2022, the last bit of it, we ended up at Altitudenbogd, which is the big glacier and the farther and most westerly point. And that last valley, when you go, there's a, there's a person stone. I never know if you should call people stone, person stones when there's only one of them. But there's a deer stone and a person stone up together at the entrance to the valley. And so the person. And it's set in a hedixer. So the hedixer is Bronze Age. And then the deer stone is later than that. And the Persim stone is the 5th century from when the Turks before they left to go to Turkey. And then you ride up this astonishing valley that just gets narrower and narrower and narrower as you approach the glacier. And then there's the Milk River. So it's. Think of it as milk. It's white. I know the geology behind it all. But if you think of it as the Milk river, especially given the fact that milk is, is so venerated like, so the color white is really important. And that's the Mongolian Buddhist history as well as, as well as the shamanistic history and then milk products. I'm. I'm sure that when you were on your, your camel riding expedition that at the beginning somebody was throwing milk to the heavens for use of this blessing of travel is.

Warwick Schiller (105:51)

Well, it happened one time during the thing I'M not sure they did at the start, but I do remember leaving one camp one morning and the lady I think was Mayor's Milk. The lady was.

Julie Velou (105:59)

Yeah, so that, that's very common to start. I don't think we start any track without somebody throwing milk. And so sort of all of this together, the Milk river is a big spiritual deal. And as you go up this valley with these soaring, soaring mountain at the top of the valley getting narrower and narrower and right up at the end there's this big high rock. I mean you would call it a plateau if it was bigger, but it's just a really big rock that has a flat surface on it. And you go there and it's completely covered in petroglyphs like from the earliest man. And you know, from riding up here, like you can feel it from the earth. But you just know also from the scientific evidence people have lived here for forever, right? This is, this is the seed of, of humanity, if you will. And so these petroglyphs are all like all super cool petroglyphs of, you know, snow leopards and all sorts of wild animals and people riding horses and people shooting arrows and just all sorts of things. And then when you go from there a little way over, there's all of these burial sites from the 5th century with the people stones marking the nobleman's burial. And then from there that just is narrower and narrower and you get up to the, the, the glacier and it is, it is awe inspiring in the true sense of the word. And you just know that you have just ridden the same pilgrimage that people have been doing since the beginning of time. And so there's this very eerie like, I know for a fact, historically I know Genghis Han rode up there to meet with generals and spiritual advisors and whatnot, you know, at different times in his life. Because the, the road that Genghis Han and his army made, which goes all across Mongolia, which is hard to find some of it now that, but, but we are, this spring we're in. I think it'll be, I think it'll be somewhere around like May 22nd. I'm going to be riding along Chingis Hans Road. But it's just, you just, you feel not just small in a global scale, but in a historical scale. It's kind of like 3D. So you feel like you're, you know, like the, the Harry Potter books where there's like a, a painting and something's moving in the painting. And I just feel this all the time when I'm out There, like, that's me that. This is. It's too spectacular to be real. This is some kind of magical, otherworldly space that had been created by the gods, and I'm lucky enough to ride across that. And so then. And when you add the dimension of time to it, that, like, I'm. I'm only one. Like, you feel like you're the only person that ever. That's ever been there. But, you know, tens of thousands, maybe millions of people have ridden along here for the same reason for a spiritual enlightenment and, you know, for prayers to the gods for good weathers, for good crops, for. For, you know, for good animals, you know, to go. There's a. There's a site where people go to, you know, for, For. For fertility, you know, like, they want to have babies, can babies. So you go pray over here. And so you've got like, the evidence of, you know, from the Bronze Age prehistory with the, The, The. The petroglyphs and then the Bronze Age with the head I. And the deer stalls and then the, like the. The burial site of Turkic noblemen there, like from the 5th century. And it's just. It puts you in a perspective on the planet that broadens your view of everything. And I think that for me, at least, it's been the most complete encapsulation of. Of what it means to be human on this little tiny blue ball that is hurtling through space.

Warwick Schiller (109:40)

Yeah, I, you know, it's. I think it's different seeing something like. Like, so there's petroglyphs. Seeing them there instead of the, like the museum in London or something. Rather, you know, like when we went on the camel thing, we saw there was one place we went to, there was a lot of petroglyphs, and they were mostly camels, like the Bactrian camels. And are they big? Not bighorn sheep? What are the ones with the beer?

Julie Velou (110:05)

Yeah, yeah, it is. Big orangey. Yeah. Bighorn sheep.

Warwick Schiller (110:10)

Yeah.

Julie Velou (110:10)

Yep. Big circles. Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (110:12)

Well, no, no, they're not. They're not the circles. They're the ones. It's just. It's one horn. Thank you. That's what they. So there was a lot of camel engravings. Petroglyphs of camels and engravings. Petroglyphs of the. Of the ibex. And I don't remember call seeing arrow. You know, humans with arrows. But yeah, think about seeing those things. And I, you know, it's on this windswept hill and the wind's freezing cold, and you just sit there and think about who carved this back then and why were they carving this and what were they thinking and what was their day like? And. Yeah, it really makes sense.

Julie Velou (110:50)

It's weird to be like, exactly in the same spot because it's, you know, it's like, you know, reading about in a book, like you say, or seeing it in museum. It's, it's, it's. It lacks the depth of being in the spot and being really able to imagine, like, these. Carving these things did. It's not a. A job of 25 minutes, you know, it's.

Warwick Schiller (111:10)

That's. Well, that's the thing. Like, if I saw this petroglyph in a museum, like, that's cool.

Julie Velou (111:15)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (111:16)

But when I saw this petroglyph where it was cast, loved, and I've got an icy wind blowing up my ass.

Julie Velou (111:22)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (111:23)

You know, and. And the view from up there, you can see for me and Mars. And like, it's just a totally immersive experience. It's totally different.

Julie Velou (111:31)

And you really start imagining, like, why. Why did he do this? Or she. You know, what. What drove them? You know, was it cultural? Was it personal? Was it family, familial? You know, were they just bored? Was, like, whether good? And so they had. Had nothing to do. And, you know, so they thought they just go and, like, leave something for, you know, posterity or invoking to the gods or whatever. And so it really makes you look at and question humanity, you know, and, and what it is and how it's going to be. So. Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (112:02)

Yeah. Very, very, very interesting stuff. You mentioned before that when you guys moved to Mongolia, you didn't use up a lot of the container, but you said that you had a lot of books. One of the questions I sometimes ask people is, do you have. What is. What is your favorite book you recommend? Not necessarily the favorite book you've ever read, but the one when you meet people, you go, hey, you need to read this book. Do you have one of those.

Julie Velou (112:29)

It's gonna. It's gonna be the Secret History of The Muggle Queens. 100%. Because this is like, when I talk about how empowered the women are and how. How strong they are, this explains why they were this strong. And it is really. It's a really good outlay outline of. Not. I mean, not. It's not just because it's Mongolia and Genghisan. It's. It's really, really well written. And anyway, so that. But the, you know, the. The Secret Life of the Mongol Queens is such a good look at the history that people don't Ever think about or see about. And part of that is just because, you know, history is historically told from the viewpoint of the men and the females part in it. And part of this, again, this is the anthropology me. When you see the women now in Mongolia and the herders like the women and the men, the division of labor is, is. Is complete. There's certain things that men won't do, certain things women won't do, but like sort of historically growing out of the time of Genghis Khan. So traditionally, the men are the heads of the household. Absolutely 100. But the women own the GE and so they. Women sort of control the finances. So yes, the man is the head of the household, but if he wants to do something with his money, he sort of has to ask his wife. And so this, this, this grills into it like this, this equality, which is one of the reasons that as help mates and workmates and actual partners that, I mean, it is very difficult to survive as a nomad in the wilds of Mongolia. And for them to do it with the grace and cheer that they do, this evolution in the relationship between men and women and the roles has been really significant. And again, there's so. But there are so many things that I think we could learn from Mongolian and Mongolians. And, and this is one of them, is that every. Everybody needs. Everybody does work together. And if everybody works together, then it, then it works really well. And there's, There's. Yeah, there's a. There's a lot about it. But I also, I also just, I also just love that.

Warwick Schiller (114:46)

I've not heard of it, so you'll have to look that one up. Do you want to give us a quick. Because there's a lot of. You're talking about the women owns the, the gear. There's a lot of gear rules that you have to learn when you go there. Like, so the doors are always unlocked, aren't they?

Julie Velou (115:03)

Not always, but traditionally, yes.

Warwick Schiller (115:06)

And then you don't knock.

Julie Velou (115:07)

No, you don't knock. You just walk in.

Warwick Schiller (115:09)

You just walk in and you have to yell first.

Julie Velou (115:11)

You have to yell, which means like, is your dog okay or is your dog tied up? And so then they know that there is somebody there and coming in and, and they often. When you, when you yell, they will often come out, but if they don't. Yeah, you just, you can just walk in.

Warwick Schiller (115:24)

Just go in and you, you only walk around inside clockwise, correctly.

Julie Velou (115:32)

You had good lessons.

Warwick Schiller (115:33)

And that's got to do. Yeah, and that's got to do with. That's the way the world turns around. You don't go against nature, you go with nature.

Julie Velou (115:40)

Right. The sun. We are following the sun.

Warwick Schiller (115:42)

And the altar is always on the opposite side of the door. So the doors on the south side.

Julie Velou (115:50)

Is always on the south side.

Warwick Schiller (115:51)

Alters altars on the north side. What don't you do? You don't. You don't allow the soles of your feet to face towards the altar, Is that.

Julie Velou (115:59)

Yeah. And you don't allow the soles of your feet to face anybody, really.

Warwick Schiller (116:02)

Oh, okay. So you.

Julie Velou (116:03)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller (116:03)

When you sit down, you're not. You don't. You wouldn't have your legs flat with your. Your soles, your feet out. Okay. What else? You don't go between the two poles in the middle. Is that correct?

Julie Velou (116:13)

Really don't. Yeah, you really don't. That means you want to break up the marriage of that. Of that. The man and woman. Because the. There's so much. There is so much artistry and history and culture in the ger itself. And that's the two support columns. They're often decorated even like with the male and female symbol. And so they are the pillars of the family. And then the center taunt of the crown at the top, that is the gateway to heaven. And so the. The. The man and the woman hold up the family, which is the gateway to heaven. And so the decorations that. On the inside of that are often very meaningful as well. And so they. That's why they have a huge veneration for fire as well. So you can't, like, if you blow your nose, you cannot put that tissue on the fire because the fire has to be clean, what it takes up to the heavens. And so they have a. They have a lot of rules about what you can, can or can't put in the fire. And so essentially nothing you can put in the fire. It's basically. Basically the rule. The biggest one is really don't whistle in a gear.

Warwick Schiller (117:12)

I'd not heard that one.

Julie Velou (117:14)

Yeah. If you whistle in the garret means someone's gonna die. So whistling and singing is. Is bad too, but not. That's only in certain circumstances. Usually. Usually singing is fine, certain circumstances not. But whistling is bad. Don't whistle. Never whistle. And don't stand on the. The lintel, like on the doorway. Don't put your foot on that. And you never ever like speak from outside to inside. You have to have your body fully in or fully out. And so you. You can't. If you have one foot over the lintel and one back and you're speaking to people. It's because your foot is, you're in two worlds then, and it's, it's bad. So you have to either, if you want to speak to somebody, you have to come in, close the door and speak to them. I think it's actually just, it's grown out of the fact that it's really, really silly to have the door open in Mongolia, you know, because. Cold.

Warwick Schiller (118:00)

Right.

Julie Velou (118:00)

So I think that evolves that way. But, yeah, Mongolian people will, they will tell you there's, yeah, there's a, the rules about in a gear. There's. They're legendary and legion. The good news is because you're like a visitor and not Mongolian people don't hold you to account too terribly much. I, however, get held to account all the time now because people think I know all of them and there's still ones that I've been finding out that I didn't know. And I, I, I have a gear factory, I should know all these things, but I haven't, I haven't learned them all yet.

Warwick Schiller (118:30)

And then when you're in there, I'd, you know, when you, when they pass you the silver bowl with the shots of vodka, the camel vodka, you take, you receive it with your left hand while supporting your right elbow with you. Sorry, with your right hand and you're supporting your right elbow with your left hand.

Julie Velou (118:45)

That's, that's a very traditional way. And then there's rules about, like, the lip of how you can hold the bowl if you can't put your thumb. You can put your thumb on the lip but not in.

Warwick Schiller (118:55)

And so, yeah, there's, yeah, that pretty much. I think that goes without saying. You've got, you've, you don't have any toilets. It's just outside and there's no running water. So. Yeah, I probably wouldn't want you sticking with them in my. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Julie Velou (119:13)

That's definitely true. Well, I mean, traditionally, though, like on the Mongolian belt, for their dowel, for their traditional Mongolian long coat, which is just as an aside, it's the best riding habit on the planet. And I will go toe to toe with anybody about that. The, the traditional belt, they carried a silver bowl or a wooden bowl and their own chopsticks and their own ear picker, of all things. And so when you would go to somebody's house, they would serve you in your bowl and you would be responsible for the hygiene of, of everything associated with that. So, which, and then also, this was obviously a system, I think, invented by the Women, because now they, nobody, they're not doing the dishes right. You, you clean your own, clean your own bowl and chopstick. So that part's quite cool, I think.

Warwick Schiller (120:00)

You know, something I noticed there, and I've noticed it in other third world countries. You know, like we were in Kenya a few years ago and you went to a Maasai village and they're perfect. They live in a dust bowl and everybody's clothes are perfectly clean. And in these, you know, we were in Mongolia in the winter, so there is no water that's not frozen, but everything's clean. Yep, it was, I just, I just, it was mind boggling.

Julie Velou (120:31)

Like they're very clean, clean, very, very clean. And I, I, I also don't know how they do it. It's still magic to me. Like when I was talking before about the Ger district, sort of the slum area that the, the established part about the part that is close to the city center, that is considered very middle class, lots and lots of people come out of there and go to work in an office every day and they don't have running water and they don't have flush toilets or any of that sort of stuff. And they come out and they are a hundred percent more put together than me. And you know, they, they look fantastic, very professional, all the rest of it. And you would think that they've either they've been in, had a, you know, a full shower and all the modern convenience and they do not. And so it, again, this is one of those things where we all, because we were so reliant on it, now we don't realize that it's not really necessary to have running water. Like it's not really necessary. There's, there's systems in place in a large part of the world and certainly for the overwhelming portion of history where people didn't have running water and they were perfectly fine. And I think that we all think that they weren't, you know, that it was just like a dirty, grubby time because that's what the history books say. But my experience with Mongolian herders is different. And I think that lots and lots of people have misunderstood how dirty it was in the past just because, you know, I think humanity is quite normal to want to be clean. I don't think this is something they learned. I think this is something they've always had. These guys, when we go to trek, honestly, they get up every single morning and they go down to the river or wherever or if they don't have the river, like from we take a, a truck with what, like a big thousand liter water tank with us for the horses. Well and for people. And so they'll, they'll get a bucket of water or they'll go down the river and they'll wash. They'll strip their shirt off with the man and they have a full wash every morning. And this is not because they're traveling with us, this is what they do every morning regardless. And so it's like, you know, it's just, it's, it's interesting when you, when you observe how people and societies and cultures function and start to see that, you know, our, our culture, society is not necessarily the be all and end all. It's kind of, it's good, it's good on a personal growth level.

Warwick Schiller (122:43)

Yeah, I think so. So before we started this podcast you said how much time we're doing this for? Because I could talk from this stuff about about 14 hours. And I do believe what you said was true. But we have to pull it up here somewhere. So tell us, how can people find out more about the Value foundation and all the different philanthropic things you guys do?

Julie Velou (123:06)

So I mean the, the obvious one is the Value foundation website which is the foundation.com and so it's V E L O O and so that's, that's the easiest one. And then there's lots of, of the, we also have flu foundation on all of the social media that you would think of. Facebook, Instagram, whatever. People can email me if they have questions or you know, need more information. And that's the leaffoundationmail.com becomes me the, the horse tracks. So if you look up Gobi Gallop it's, it's. Well so the, the main information about the rides is going to be on the, the Horse Track Mongolia website. And so that's Trek T R E K. Sometimes people can't find it because they think it's ck but it's T R E K Horse Track Mongolia or you can just look up Gobi Gallop or Blue Wolf Totem. So the Blue Wolf to Them expedition, the four month long one, we still have two seats available. We would like, we would like to have, we would like to have 10 full time people.

Warwick Schiller (124:03)

I don't know that when is, when is it?

Julie Velou (124:05)

It's May 6th. We're leaving and we, we finish up on September 5th. And it is so, and it's so people are always like but how much does it cost? And so I personally, I mean I get that this is gonna, I'm gonna Give you a big number here. Personally, I think for what it is, it's quite cheap. It's, it's $28,000 to do it and, and then you have to raise 7,000 for the foundation. So 35 altogether.

Warwick Schiller (124:30)

You know, if you think about what a 10 day adventure thing might cost and think about that's three months. Four months. Sorry, four months. Yeah, you know, four months. It's, that's pretty cheap for four months of that sort of adventure.

Julie Velou (124:48)

Wow. That's what I think. So you want to come?

Warwick Schiller (124:50)

Why didn't I have you on the podcast before we scheduled my next. Before I scheduled 2006. I'm, I'm. Right now I'm thinking how could I get to do that? But I, I've got so much stuff in those four months.

Julie Velou (125:00)

Come to the one month section. There you go. But we, yeah, so there's, so that's, you know that, that's the Blue Wolf Totem Expedition and it's a. Basically, if you look up Blue Wolf Totem Expedition, it'll take you to the web page or the Facebook page or the Instagram or whatnot. And the same with Gobi Gallup and all of those things. You can just, you can just like message me or email me. I'm quite happy to talk to people and explain what it's all about and how it's all going to work. And so, yeah, that's pretty much how people can do it.

Warwick Schiller (125:33)

Great stuff. Well, thank you for joining me and, and sharing your stories and also thank you for what you're doing in the world. I think you're doing amazing work out there.

Julie Velou (125:43)

Thank you so much. It's like I tell Everybody, like I'm 65 now and so I tell everybody like the goal is I just want to ride the horses and play with the babies. That's, that's, that's what I want to do. And so the modeling team from foundation is stepping up and taking over and same with some of the young people. But I'm still going to be out there like leading tracks and doing stuff or for quite a long time. And it's, I'm a hundred percent aware of how extraordinarily lucky I am that my life gets to be. I mean I have, I've got eight or 10 Mongolian horses and I can choose from which horse I'm going to go ride and ride as far as I want because there's like literally no fences and you could, if I would like to go if I'm. When I'm in Mongolia, If I want to go for a 10 kilometer ride or a 30 kilometer ride or 100 kilometer ride, I just have to just do it. Just have to decide to do it and go do it. It's not, it's. And that is obviously not something everybody gets to do. So I'm aware of how lucky I am and I love, really love to share as you can see with people. It's kind of, it's, it's kind of what I, what I do, what I love to do. And so we have like with the, the horse trick Mongolia. One of our hashtags is hashtag we live here. And that really is the case. We, we live there, we love it. And yeah happy to talk to people.

Warwick Schiller (127:02)

About it whenever and however amazing amazing stuff. I just realized that. So you, you said you're 65 and you started writing when you were 50. That means you've been riding for 50, 15 years but you've done 50, 000 kilometers.

Julie Velou (127:16)

Yeah. Lucky, right?

Warwick Schiller (127:18)

That's a lot of riding.

Julie Velou (127:20)

Lucky. Well, you know, we did the, we did the 3,600kilometer ride and every year 700km with a Gobi gallop and spend very often 700km scouting the route as well. So very often I have a default of 1400 kilometers a year. And then the year that we did the, the Blue Wolf, that was, we did, I did the Gobi Gal on top of that. So did 3, 600 there and then another 1400 was 5000. Like it doesn't take long to get to 50,000 when you are, when you're.

Warwick Schiller (127:53)

Doing that kinds of numbers.

Julie Velou (127:54)

Yeah, it doesn't. And so the thing that I'm particularly proud of is that the, the Gobi Gallop and the Blue Wolf Totem, certainly by the end of, by the end of this Blue Wolf Totem expedition, we will have crossed a million dollars that we've raised for the kids by from horse people from around the world coming and riding with us. And that's, that's awesome. And the one, the only one last thing I would like to say, and I only say it because people are often surprised by it, is I don't take any salary from any of this. So all of the money that people pay for the ride guides or donate to the foundation, it all goes to the Mongolians. Everything stays in Mongolia. It's all, it's all there. Nothing leaves the country. It all, it's all either profit for the company or pays for guides or businesses or the foundation. None of it leaves the country. So that's also a nice feeling when you're booking an adventure to know that, you know, you really are making a difference in the country where you're riding at the same time as having this adventure.

Warwick Schiller (128:45)

Well, okay, so I got to look at my. I'm going to look at your calendar for next.

Julie Velou (128:50)

Yeah, there we go. Next year, 2027. 2027. Looks like I'm just. It's not 100 guaranteed yet, but it looks like we're having the Equus Film Festival come to Mongolia to kick off the Gobi Gallop and there's going to be some filmmakers coming along on the Gobi Gallop to make films. So, you know, it's a good year.

Warwick Schiller (129:07)

Sounds like quite the adventure. Okay, I'm gonna let you go. Thank you so much for joining me, Julie. It was amazing.

Julie Velou (129:11)

Thank you. My pleasure.

Warwick Schiller (129:11)

And for you guys at home, if you guys at home, thanks for joining us and we'll catch you on the next episode of the Journey on podcast. Thanks for being a part of the Journey on Podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warwick has over 850 full length training.

Julie Velou (129:26)

Videos on his online video library@videos.warickschiller.com Be.

Warwick Schiller (129:31)

Sure to follow Warrick on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram to see his latest training advice and insights.