A (3:10)

I don't think so, no. Unless. Unless someone else has given you.

B (3:13)

Unless somebody else did. But no, I have a. I have a signed copy of this book.

A (3:19)

Okay.

B (3:19)

So anyway, the reason you're here is because I've read this book and it is fascinating to say the least. But. And we might. We might want to get into the book here in a second, but in this book, there is a girl and a horse.

A (3:39)

Yeah.

B (3:40)

And the wisdom that this horse tells the girl is some of the most profound stuff I've ever read. And you wrote that. And so what I want to know is how many years did you spend in a cave in Tibet? You know what I mean? Like, how did you. This is what I want to figure out is how did you, living in the Shropshire countryside, come up with that? Because it's absolutely profound.

A (4:13)

Thank you. I mean, it wasn't so much a case of coming up with it as having so many experiences crammed into a relatively short space of time that I couldn't contain at all, and it all just kind of poured out. That's the best way of explaining it. Hence why in my comment earlier, I didn't ever intend to be an author. I just found myself in a situation where I had so much, so many experiences, and I think writing actually helped me to make sense of all those experiences that I'd had. And I just found myself in a situation where I couldn't contain them all. So it all came pouring out. And those influences were living in a haunted house, having quite severe health issues that I researched and found alternative explanations for rather than a conventional explanation for which I wasn't really satisfied with. And the third influence was spending time with my amazing horse Pie, who was.

B (5:25)

You are the. You're the perfect guest for the Journey on podcast with those three things right there. And I want to get into those experiences here in a minute, but can you. Can you. Was. Was the Horses know your first one?

A (5:37)

Yes.

B (5:38)

Okay. Can you kind of give the. The listener a bit of a rundown on the book?

A (5:47)

So it's about a 16 year old girl who. She's living in a post apocalyptic quite a long way past where I kind of feel we could as a society be heading towards. So humanity's destroyed itself basically. And those who are left are growing in, are living in small self sufficient villages. And the reason that they've found a way to survive after leaving all of the insanity behind that caused humanity to destroy itself was by being guided by hors. And the horses choose individuals that they call to them telepathically, they call to them and form bonds so they. You have a horse and humans become bond partners. And these horses communicate with their bond partners and provide wisdom and education that helped the rest of humanity to survive after all of the kind of the way we live today had ended. And it's about this girl's journey because all of the horse bonded, they're called the people who are chosen by horses. All of the horse bonded who have gone before her have literally just formed that function really where they've been chosen by a horse. They've lived their lives together and they've passed on the horse's wisdom. They travel around these villages, passing on the horse's wisdom to help people to survive really and to rebuild communities, that kind of thing. Amarilla is her name. She's a 16 year old girl. She's very young to be bonded. And it soon transpires that her reason for being chosen is slightly different from the horse bonded that have gone before her. Because not only is she going to be a vessel for her horse's wisdom, but. But she's the one that the horses have been waiting for because she's young and flexible and open to challenging the way the horse bonded have done things up to that point and being able to help the horses in return. So the horses up to this point have just been there and been prepared to compromise on not being wild horses anymore. Compromise on the way they've, they've kind of lived separately from one another in order to be with their bond partners. They've compromised aspects of themselves. And they've been doing that all of this time, which has been great. But then they reach this point where they would like to find a higher level of balance for themselves. And in finding that, and in asking a human to help them to find that, they help humanity to evolve one stage further.

B (8:51)

You know, before we got on here, I asked Lynn, have you, do you know anything about the podcast? She goes, oh, I listened to one episode recently just to get the gist of how it all works, and that was Cara Giroux. But I had a view. Lynn, I had a guest on a couple of years ago now from Sweden, a lady named Emily K's daughter, and she is, she runs a, she runs a sanctuary there. She's the closest I've ever met to somebody from your book. Okay, okay. She runs a sanctuary in Sweden and it's, it's a, it's a sanctuary for inter species Empathic interbeing.

A (9:28)

Okay. Yeah, that sounds like it.

B (9:31)

One of the things, you know. So she's a. She is a. Like a naturopath for horses. She does bodywork, but she also is. I wouldn't call an animal communicator, but that's the closest I can get to it. But she actually had an experience as a very young girl where she actually inhabited the consciousness of the horse.

A (9:55)

Wow.

B (9:56)

And she can do it these days. But anyway, she can give you messages from the collective consciousness of horses. She will say, this is what the horses are trying to tell us. And it's amazing. Your book and what comes out of her mouth are very, very, very similar. Very, very closely aligned.

A (10:16)

I have a theory that Booth finds its way out from lots of different directions.

B (10:23)

Oh, yeah, yeah. Most certainly. But, yeah, it's just uncanny how not similar her experience is, but similar her. The stuff that comes out of. Out of Emily. So this. Can we talk more about the book?

A (10:39)

Yep, sure.

B (10:42)

Because it's, you know, it's this post apocalyptic. And it's really interesting that we're talking about this right now because the world is kind of crazy, right this. And I don't mean in this decade. I mean in this period of 10 days sort of thing. You know, it's. It's getting pretty wild out there. So it's in this post apocalyptic thing. And you said that the horses are kind of leading people in the right direction. But can we. Can we talk about some of the other things that people do? Because I find this almost prophetic. Like, yes, we could do this. So one of the things is the healers in the people who are drawn to be healers in your book, we can give a bit of the plot away, can't we? You got 13 books, so. Yeah, okay. You know, like the girl that ends up being drawn to the horses, she starts out wanting to try out as a. Is it a. Are they called healers? Is that what it is in the book or.

A (11:43)

Yeah, there's the healing skills. Yes, there are the skills that are all done mentally. Energetically.

B (11:51)

Yeah, right. Energetically. So in order to find out if she's going to be a healer, the healer, doesn't she, like, pick plants and then have the girl imagine she has an ailment and then hold her hands over the plants and see if that makes. Makes that feeling go away.

A (12:05)

Yeah, exactly.

B (12:09)

So she doesn't even have the element, but she is to imagine she has a cold or whatever, or arthritis or whatever, and then put her hands over the plants.

A (12:20)

Yeah.

B (12:21)

And So I feel like. I feel like that's like hunter, gatherer, indigenous, wisdomy. Where did that. Where did that part of the story come from? Did that just come to you, or did you read something one time? I'm like, oh, yeah, that.

A (12:38)

That came to me. So much of what I've written I can't really take credit for. I just kind of ask myself a question, so how could that happen? And then whatever comes to me, I just write it down. I don't question it. And then very often, I read it back and think, oh, yeah, that could work.

B (13:01)

Okay. The plots thickens. Oh, wow, this is so cool. Okay. All my podcast guests are coming together at once right now, because I had a lady in the podcast a few years ago who's a Sufi mystic poet. She's a young lady from Oregon or Washington. Oregon, I think. Okay. She's probably in her 30s, blonde girl, but she had an experience, and now she downloads Sufi mystic poetry. She'll just feel it coming, and it comes through her just like this.

A (13:31)

Yeah.

B (13:31)

Wow. Okay. So another part I found was really interesting was the stone singers. Are they called stone singers?

A (13:39)

Rock singers? Yeah.

B (13:41)

Rock singers?

A (13:42)

Yeah.

B (13:42)

Not Mick Jagger rock singers. So these are people who can make. Is it. Give me, tell me if I'm ready? Make noise at such a high vibration, they can actually elevate, so they make

A (13:55)

a sound that resonates with the rock they want to move. And then once that sound, once, like they're resonating, they send their intention along that pathway made by the sound and send their intention. It's almost like the sound is creating a pathway to send their intention down, to then use their intention to move it. That skill was the only one where I started off with inspiration, because I didn't know if I'd read it or seen a documentary. It was just something that had lodged in my brain about how the pyramids may have been built, the great pyramids. And it was that and that. I'm sure I remember a theory being put forward that possibly there was some mystical way they'd done it and they'd use sound. So I just asked myself the question, okay, if I was going to use sound, how would that work? And then did what I do and just wrote, wrote. And there's that. Oh, yeah, that might work. Like, I.

B (14:56)

Have you ever heard the idea? Because in the. Under the pyramids and all the big, you know, chambers and stuff under the pyramids, there is no. I think it's in there. There's no residue of smoke. And if there's no residue of smoke. That means they didn't have lit, you know, burning bundles of sticks or whatever to light the thing or wax candles or anything like that. And the theory I've read somewhere was that they could create light through sound.

A (15:26)

Okay.

B (15:27)

And so, you know, that's why I was. That's why the. The rock singers and. Yeah, that's why the rock singers. I wanted to ask you about that. So if you guys listening in the book, these rock singers, they're the builders. So they build stone buildings, but they don't lift the rocks. They.

A (15:45)

With the mind. Yeah.

B (15:47)

Yes. With the intention. Yeah, the vibration. The intention. It's so fascinating. In. When you were. When this was coming to. All this stuff was coming to you, did you have any idea of what this apocalyptic thing would look like? Or is that just. It's just post apocalyptic? You don't know.

A (16:10)

I wrote it, I think, think really thinking back to when I wrote it, in terms of a way of living that I would be. I would love to live in. I like to walk everywhere. I prefer to walk than use, transport or do anything else. I obviously love to live alongside horses. The thought of being able to tune into skills that are possibly been lost, you know, that as you were saying with the hunter Gatherer way of using intuition to know which plants might be, you know, in the first instance, which plants to use for what, that kind of thing, that way of living appeals to me. I'm. I'm a bit of a technophobe, I'll admit to that. I'm not very good. I'm slightly repelled by technology and all that kind of thing. I much prefer being out in nature and living like that. So when I thought about how these people could live and come together and live in a. In a positive, harmonious way, that was what I envisaged.

B (17:18)

Well, I think, you know, reading the book, I was like, wow, this is a possibility. Like we could. Because, you know, the question I think of a lot is, where do we go from here? Like, how do we get ourselves out of this show we're currently in.

A (17:37)

Yeah.

B (17:38)

And, and, and, and what would it look like afterwards? And we're not, you know, it's not like we're back to this in this. In your book. It's not like we're back to the Stone Age.

A (17:49)

No.

B (17:51)

But we are back to living in small, you know, because we evolved to live in groups of like. I think it's 150 is as big as they get before they'd split off sort of thing.

A (18:00)

Yeah.

B (18:01)

And books that I've. Have you ever read Sapiens by?

A (18:06)

I started to read it and got distracted. Somebody lent it to me and I started to read it and then I think I had it too long because I'd got distracted and had to give it back. But I know the book you mean,

B (18:16)

you know, like in there, he talks about, you know, a lot about that sort of thing. And, you know, I think it was in that. How they, you know, how we. They would split off into groups of 150. Because you cannot. You cannot maintain social cohesion and. And all that sort of thing with more people than that. Yeah, it kind of gets lost in translation. And then he gets to. Later on, he gets to talking about organized religion and things like that. And that's. That kind of helped because now we have a common. Yeah, we don't know each other.

A (18:52)

Yeah.

B (18:52)

That we have a common belief.

A (18:54)

Yeah.

B (18:55)

And so now. And that. That. Yes, I was. Yeah, your book just fascinates that.

A (19:00)

So to me, in the book, it's the horses that are providing that. That, you know, they're providing the structure that everyone believes in, because without them, they wouldn't have survived. You know, they've left. They've left these highly technological, highly controlled environments, the civilizations, they've left all of that behind where food's provided for them. And it's provided, you know, made in warehouses. A lot of it's synthetic, that kind of thing. They've left it behind because they've got this inner feeling that it's not rice and it's not how they want to live. And this is explored a lot more in the later books. I kind of go back down the timeline and go through that and. But then how, once they're out in nature, how do they live? They don't know what foods to eat. They don't know how to catch fish, they don't know how to hunt. They don't know how to do anything. Build houses. They don't know how to do anything. And it's the horses that help them to tap into the psyche and provide that. Provide the exact wording that helps them to tap it back into the memories that I've said in the book, the humans are stored within the human psyche so that they start to remember how to do these things for themselves and how to do it in a way that doesn't rely on technology,

B (20:18)

really. So in the later books, so the Horses Know is your first book, but it's not the first chronologically, is that correct?

A (20:26)

Yes. I'm so over the place.

B (20:31)

It's a bit like Star wars is. It starts out with Star wars, who've

A (20:34)

been with me since the start, have been all over the place. I wrote three that were in order, then I went back and wrote a prequel. Then I wrote the fourth one after the first three. Then I think I wrote another two prequels, and then I went back and carried on the other timeline. Only in that timeline, they travel back in time. So they've been back. I've gone all over the place. It's a lot easier to start reading them now that they're all done and they're all in water.

B (21:02)

Okay, so if someone was going to read all 14 books, would you. Should they read them in chronological order or order they're written?

A (21:09)

They can either start with the book that you started with the Horses know, which is the first book in the main series. Because following that through it, it takes them through the timeline and back in the timeline and it's kind of. It works. Or they can start with the prequels, which each of the prequels are a backstory of one of the main characters that's in the main series. So you just get to learn why those characters are as they are in the main series, what their story was and how they reached that place. So they're kind of more studies, individual studies, on an aspect of the human experience, really. Like, one of them experiences anxiety, One of them's dealing with loss, one of them's dealing with growing up in an environment where she felt rejected and not the same as her siblings. So they're each dealing with an individual aspect with the help of their horse. And because of that, they then have a big contribution to make to the main storyline.

B (22:11)

So what's that. What's that process like? Because what I. What I have found in, like, making videos about training horses, whatever, that if you. If you. If you go back and do prequels, like, if you go back and do a thing before the thing, do you find that. Because you've already said the thing in the first book, are you saying things that are a bit redundant? Or is it like, is that a. Is that a struggle to not be. Tell the story that you're going to tell later anyway, or is that easy in each case?

A (22:47)

I was curious because I. I've written these books so kind of organically, I'm not a plotter. I tried that once and I came out in hives and it sent my brain funny. And I'm never doing that again. I'm very much. We're called pants as in the author profession. I don't know if you know that, because I write by the seat of my pants and I literally kind of.

B (23:08)

You're a pantser.

A (23:09)

I'm a pants. That's the technical term for it. Yeah. I'm a pantser. I do.

B (23:14)

Hey, put your hand up. Give me a high five. I'm a pantser in everything I do. And it seems to work for me exactly right.

A (23:21)

By the city of Pence, I find it's. The possibilities are endless, being a pantser. Whereas if I plot, I've confined myself already and I'm blocking things out that might want to be. To come through. And because of that process, I've just kind of. I made a rule with myself that when I thought I needed a new character to come along and play this part, whatever their name was that came to me, whether it was a horse or a person, that's the name they were going to have. It was. I was just going to go with that for whatever reason. And what came out, because that wasn't plotted either with some of the characters, I just got curious and just thought, now, why is he like that? Why would he be like that? To the point where it's almost became. I'd finish a book and think, no, I've got to go back and find out why he's like that, what happened to him, that he's come to this point and he is like that. And so it's just bringing. It's taking the reader back to where their particular challenge started and bringing them kind of helping them to know the story of that person so they have a fuller understanding of that character as they take place in the. As they take part in the main series.

B (24:33)

So while you were telling me that bit there, I had a. I had a thought I want to run by you because you just downloaded this from. This all came from somewhere.

A (24:43)

Yeah.

B (24:44)

Okay. That wasn't you. You're a panther. There's a message that came through you. Have you ever considered that you were channeling a future timeline?

A (24:55)

I'm not sure I'm channeling a future timeline. I'm definitely channeling a lot of what comes out. You mentioned my necklace I'm wearing here. I always wear this when I'm writing because it's got a lazuli pendant, which I've always found magnifies intuition. And when I would find, right from writing the first book, if I would ever get to a point and think, what would the horse. What needs to come through? What advice would the horse give there? And hold that and then just write whatever came through. And absolutely, a lot of the things I've written, I'm not bright enough to have come up with that on my own.

B (25:41)

Absolutely fascinating. You know, the thing that really kind of resonated with me, not necessarily just resonated, because the whole book resonated with me, but there was a part, not a part of the book, but a theme through that book where it seems like that society is like hunter gatherers who are collaborative. Like, everybody does everything for the good of the whole. Yeah, it's not. It's not.

A (26:12)

Not.

B (26:12)

It's not capitalism. It's not. Everybody's out for themselves. Everybody does things for the good of the whole. Which I've had guests on the podcast who spent quite a bit of time with hunter gatherers, and they made me realize, you know, like, one guy was a documentary filmmaker, and he said, if you go to a hunter gatherer tribe and ask him, you know, can you film or whatever, the chief comes out and has a chat to you, whatever. But he said, we only think he's the chief. He's the person who's probably dealt with foreigners more. Maybe they can speak English, maybe they can speak French, maybe they can speak whatever. And we, because of our perspective, we think he comes out because he's the boss, because we have prime ministers and presidents and popes and, you know, that sort of kings and queens and stuff. He said, but that's not the case in hunter gatherer societies. Everybody plays a role. And the best person for that role, for the hurt, for the whole of people, plays that role.

A (27:08)

Yeah.

B (27:08)

So then fast forward a couple of years, and I have the lady from Sweden, Emily Kutter, I was telling you about. And she was saying that she really added to my perspective of how horses kind of work. And she said, it's exactly the same. Every horse in the herd has a role, or maybe there's not everybody has a role, but the ones that do have a role have that role for the good of the. The. The herd. Then I had a lady in the podcast named Kelly Wendorf, and she spent a lot of time. So she's like an executive coach. I think they call her a CEO shaman. But all her wisdom comes from horses. And an Aboriginal elder in Australia.

A (27:57)

Okay.

B (27:57)

And it was. And it's. And the message that keeps coming through is all the same message, whether it's hunter gatherers and the Kalahari, if it's Emily from Sweden, tell me about the horses. If it's Kelly Wendorf telling about the horses, if It's Kelly Wendorf. Tell me Aboriginal, you know, Australian Aboriginal wisdom. Or it's your book. It's like, it's all the same thing.

A (28:17)

Yeah.

B (28:18)

And it's. And it's like this. This is what it's all about. It's about, you know, nature is collaborative. We all. Perspective we have. Have had for a long time is that it's. It's, you know, it's. It's competitive and it's combative. And, you know, if you think about, you know, like, books like the Secret Life of Trees or, you know, what's the one? I don't know if you ever read a book by Rupert Sheldrake, Son. What's his name? Merlin Sheldrake, about, like, the Mycelium Network, and how.

A (28:54)

Yeah.

B (28:55)

You know, it communicates, and the trees communicate with each other. And it's. It's like all this. The thing is, science and wisdom are the same.

A (29:04)

I think. I think what that comes down to is a how you view what you view the point of existence. And I think people who see us all as being separate from one another are going to go down the. Likely to go down the competitive route. Those of us who see that we're all parts of the same hole are likely to want to cooperate because it's. It's like, why would my index finger try and take the top off my middle finger? Because they're both joined to the same hand. You know, my fingers are going to work together because they're all part of the same hand. Why would one try and injure the other? That. It's. And that's something that I learned very intimately with cooperating with my horse. The more we came into balance together and the more in harmony we were, the less of a boundary I could feel between the two of us. It was almost as if we became one being, which, again, is part of the journey in the book.

B (30:11)

Okay, so there's got to be a. So there's got to be a backstory to this. So I didn't explain it to you before we came on, but usually in the Journey on podcast, I interview somebody who has a quite a unique perspective on life, and then I try to unravel. How did that perspective come about? Because we all kind of grew up in the same society where you got the same rules and regulations, and our parents tell us the same story and whatever. Can we go into your backstory now? Because I want to know what are the things that happen during life to, like, help you along this the way?

A (30:47)

So growing up I was anxious, introverted, sensitive to the vibes in the room, to what was going on around me. And I was always felt more comfortable around animals, particularly dogs. And when I came into contact with horses, hugely with horses, and I think looking back, they just grounded me, so I just felt calmer and more connected and I suppose more able to be myself. Growing up,

B (31:21)

they kind of accepted you for who you were. You didn't have to be. You didn't have to pretend to be somebody or.

A (31:25)

Absolutely. And I think being sensitive and I would get quite anxious if I was with people who I could. I would be feeling one thing from them that they would be displaying something else. And I still find that very confusing and unsettling. I find that difficult to be around. Whereas animals, that was never the case. They were always what they. What they were, what they were kind of projecting outward was what I was feeling from them. So there was just that level of comfort always. Not that I would have been able to put that in these terms back then, but looking back, that was how I felt.

B (32:03)

I think, you know, that's really interesting. You know, one of the things I do in helping people with their horses is in the, in the, the training part, the asking of things part is getting. Trying to get people's bodies to, to line up to where their intention, their actions, their energies, everything saying the same thing. Because a lot of times people, you know, the. Their bodies will be very incongruent. And I, I really feel like it weirds horses out. Like it weeds you out.

A (32:38)

Yeah, absolutely. So I started riding when I was 10. Absolutely lived and breathed horses. I used to help out at my local riding school so I could be there at weekends, after school, all that kind of thing. And as I grew older, I was curious about the fact that I was very, very confident with horses on the ground. But once I was riding, although I loved it, I was unable to hide who I really was. So my anxiety, my insecure, not feeling secure in the world, I didn't have a very secure seat in the saddle. I didn't feel particularly safe. And for somebody like me, you would think that would mean that I wouldn't want to do it, but I just kept going back for more. I couldn't seem to stop myself. And I just felt like I was always searching for something and the answers were with horses, but I couldn't seem to find out what they were. I took some time off from horses to do my A levels and then to go on to university. I went and read a biology degree at university. Because I'm just fascinated by the natural world and drawn in by the idea of science being able to explain everything and give me all the answers I was looking for. So I was very excited to go and study at university. Fast forward three years. I left university with the impression that science is a very small. Has a very small amount of answers to the way we live and exist. And the five senses also don't. Kind of aren't the only receptors to what's going on. So I left university starting to open up to the idea that there was far more to it than just it being as straightforward as going and being educated. And then I'd have all the answers that I would need about how the world works and how everything works. I kind of left with that. I drove myself very hard at university because I wanted to do well. So I'd found it quite stressful. So when I left, I just found myself desperate to get back with horses because they've just that grounding energy of horses. I'd just been away from them for too long. So my main focus when I left university was to find my own horse, which I did. And so I found a job. I didn't really know what I wanted to do, so I found a job that would just pay the bills and allow me to kind of make my horse my focus, really, and just spend as much time with him as possible. And what came up with him was that I would see him moving around in the field and if I was working him on the ground and he'd have this lovely fluid movement. And then when I rode him, I wasn't feeling what I could see. His movement just didn't feel right. And I was convinced it was the saddle. He came with a saddle that had been professionally fitted, but I had someone to check his back. I had his saddle checked again and everyone said it was fine, but I didn't think it was fine because I. That was the only thing that was changing. So I gave up on saddles and I just rode in bareback. I used to jump in bareback and we were having a lovely time. And then I heard of this company called Balance Saddles, who I had heard were making saddles much wider than the conventional widths of saddle and then using a different way to fit them. So their way of fitting was to say, well, if you fit a saddle to a horse when it's standing still, it may well fit when it's standing still, but when it moves and the back lifts and widens, it's probably not going to fit. When the horse is moving, which made so much sense to me. So I had them come out. And it wasn't just the different way they fitted things. It was the fact that at every stage in the process, they were wanting my horse's opinion as to what he wanted from a saddle. So all of the widths that they said were wide enough that would allow him to move underneath easily, and he did. I was just so excited because I sat in one of their saddles and I was feeling what I knew. I could see he was actually moving underneath me in the way that I knew he was capable of. So from that point of view, it was fantastic. But they didn't just stop there. They said, okay, well, that's that saddle. But we want to try him with another width wider, and put more padding in, because he might want even more room and even more padding to make it softer. We need to ask him what he would like from a saddle, because otherwise we're still just saying this is a different idea of what a human thinks a horse wants on its back. So we want to ask him what he wants. And I just love the whole ethos behind all of it. So I had my consultation, I bought a saddle from them, and I decided that was what I wanted to do. So I trained to be a balanced saddle consultant, and they also taught me how to help people riding wise. Because what we'd often find was that people who'd been riding in saddles that were too narrow, they would have got used to riding being slightly tipped back. So when they were in a saddle that was wide enough for the horse and was kind of level, they were having balance issues to start with. So I was taught to kind of help from a riding perspective as well. And it opened my eyes. The more horses I work with, I found that the more we asked their opinion, the more expressive and the more willing they became to give an opinion once they realized that they were actually being asked for an opinion. So I. I love my work, really enjoyed it. Got married to my husband, who I'd actually met working at the riding school when we were 12, and we'd been together since we were 15. So we finally got married when we. I think I was 24 at that point. By the time we got married and he. He had a horse as well. And we both decided then that we wanted to move and find somewhere where we could have our own land, because we each had a horse. But we decided we each wanted a youngster to bring on, and we couldn't afford to keep Four horses in livery down in the south of England. It was just too expensive. And we had friends who lived in the Midlands, so we decided to go and look up there and hopefully find something we could afford with our own land so that we could take our two horses with us and each have a youngster. And as soon as we kind of committed to that idea, and I had in my head that I was going to have a youngster to bring on, I just. Every time I kind of thought about the youngster I was going to have, I would have. Images of a colored mare would just flit into my mind. And by colored, I don't know if you have that terminology there, we mean white and black or white and brown. That's the kind of thing.

B (39:34)

Like a paint horse.

A (39:35)

Yeah, you call it paint. And there was something about blue eyes. And I don't know to this day. Well, I kind of do know where it came from, but then I had no idea where this was coming from because I had ridden a few mares, but generally I was riding geldings and stallions at the riding school. And then when I was old enough to, they had show jumpers there to exercise them. It was mainly gelding and stallions. So why I suddenly had this idea, it was all a bit strange, but I just kind of went with it. So we found a small holding that we could afford, mainly because most of the buildings were falling down. So we left all our family and friends behind in the south of England and moved. It was just into Wales, actually, from Shropshire, and the house was livable but needed an awful lot of work. And most of the outbuildings were falling down. But it was an amazing location in the Welsh hills for riding. And it came with just over eight acres, which is perfect for four horses. But we were strapped for cash moving there. We were right at the limit of what we could afford. So we thought, we'll just move there. We won't have. We won't get the new horses straight away. We'll work on gradually doing the outbuildings up, so we've got stables for all of them. We're both working and just take it as it comes. And really, from day one, it became absolutely clear that that was not going to happen, because I. We packed our belongings up down south and into. We couldn't afford a removals company, so we borrowed a big truck off someone Darren worked with and we family and friends all moved us out and into this truck and Darren was going to drive it up to Wales and I'd gone on ahead in the car with the dogs and the saddles because I had to divert to go and get the keys for the house. So I went and bought the keys for the house and I knew I was still ahead of him. And our small holding was three miles up this. This really narrow lane that kind of wound up into the Welsh hills. And I still remember where I was. I was about a mile up that lane and I thought, oh, I'm nearly here. It's taken forever driving and it's hot and the dogs need to get out and I need to give them water, but we're nearly there. And I thought of the house. And as soon as I thought of the house, I could feel these beings there. And don't ask me how I knew because I've never had any experience like that before, but I just felt this complete adrenaline rush of, oh, my God, I've bought a haunted house. I can feel them from here. And I. Having always been quite sensitive to kind of the vibes around me, I knew it was an old house. It was built in the 17th century, I think. Yeah, 17th century. And I'd always said I wouldn't have an old house because I knew if there was anything lingering there, I'd feel it. But when we look round it, I didn't feel anything. So I just thought, no, it's fine. But two miles down the lane, I could feel them from where I was. And I was just absolutely terrible. I thought, what am I going to do? Well, I need to carry on, but I'm going to get there on my own and I need to go in there because I need to get water for the dogs. I need to open all the windows because the lady had moved out sometime before. I need to get fresh air in. It's a nice hot day, I'm just going to have to do it. So I got there trying to pretend to myself and actually convincing myself that I'm just imagining it. It's not happening. This isn't how it is. But even so, I took the dogs with me all the way around the house while I was opening windows and that kind of thing. And I. It. I didn't. Over the months that followed, as it became very clear that I wasn't imagining it, I didn't tell anybody else because I didn't want it to be real, if that makes sense. I kind of thought that because Darren waltzed in, no reaction whatsoever, friends and family came to stay. No reaction whatsoever. They all seemed perfectly happy. So I just thought, as long as they're like that they're keeping me sane. And I can convince myself that all of this, that I can feel happening and the events that are happening, I can convince myself that there's an explanation and it's just my imagination. So I didn't tell any of them. Even as they were. I could feel five of them. I knew there were five there. I only ever had like a strong mental image of one of them. And it was. He was an elderly gentleman who always had a maroon colored cardigan on. And a very distinctive knobbly walking stick. But the other four were almost like kind of shadows in my mind. I couldn't picture who they were, but I could feel them there. The radio would switch on and off by itself. They were focused in one of the big. One of the bedrooms. Upstairs was their main place. And we had chosen that to have as our bedroom. Cause it had the best views. But we quickly. I think I made the excuse. It was when I wasn't very well. I said to my husband, no, I need to be near the bathroom. We need to move down the hallway. Cause I just couldn't be in there. And I could just feel them watching me all the time. It was. It used to make my skin crawl. And once when I went to put some fresh sheets in there, I think we'd had guests and I went to put some fresh sheets in there. I'd gone in the room. I was busying myself trying to ignore what I could feel. And there was a key that the old owner had left on the inside of the bedroom door with a big fob on it. And the fob just started swinging from nowhere, just by itself. And there was no draft, there was nothing. It just started doing that on it. So. So I just started singing really loudly. As if that was going to, I think, just to distract myself and stop myself screaming, to be honest. Finish what I was doing. And then ran down to where the dogs were. It was always a case of when this kind of thing happened. I need to be back either near the dogs or the horses or something, just to ground myself again. I think I remember one time I was sitting in the living room. And I felt them enter through one of the doorways, all five of them. And at that point, both of my dogs who'd been asleep on their beds, both of them woke up at that exact moment. Looked to where I could feel these entities. I could feel them moving around the room and leaving through the door behind me. And the dogs watched them all the way around. And then once they'd left, just put Their heads down and went back to sleep, which made me feel better that they didn't bark and they didn't seem overly bothered by them. They clearly knew they were there, but they didn't seem bothered by them particularly. And so gradually these things are starting to happen where they saw them. So it's like, right, well, I. I'm still going to find a way to say it's just an imagination. Maybe it was a fly. Maybe it was a fly that buzzed over there and flew behind me. It must have been something like that, even though I know it's not a hot fl. And then I was looking after my friend's toddler who just started to speak. I had him for the day. And obviously children of that age don't know that things like that aren't supposed to exist, do they? So he's in his push chair because she didn't bring a highchair. So I was feeding him in his push chair. So I crouched down in front of him in the kitchen, just spoon feeding him. And he looks over my shoulders. Hi. That's one of the words that he learned to say to say hello to people and to wave. And so he's quite cheerfully saying hi to one of them that's standing behind me. And I can feel the shivers go down my back thinking, how do I do this? What do I. What explanation do I find that this is not happening to me? And I'm thinking, please stop, say hello. And I can't tell the child off because I know what he's saying is real and I'm not going to make him uncomfortable. What do I do? How do I. How do I pretend this isn't happening? So again, I think I started singing again just to try and kind of distract myself. And then finally it got to the point their piece de resistance that I could no longer argue with. Darren had been working out on the yard just outside the back door and I'd been cleaning inside and I'd washed the kitchen floor and washed it and washed myself out of the kitchen door. So I kind of left the floor to dry and left the mop and bucket just outside the door and went to help Darren just the other side of the door. We were just doing something on the yard there while the floor dried. Came back in half an hour later by myself. Darren was still working out there and there are footprints all over the floor where I've just washed it. So the floor is dry but covered in muddy footprints. And I'm suddenly thinking, okay, I'm just going to do this. I'm just going to find another explanation. There is a reason for this. And it was a good 10 minutes I stood there. I couldn't move. And I thought, I'm not moving because for my sanity, I need to find an explanation as to why this has happened. So as I'm looking at these footprints that have been walking all over my kitchen floor, I noticed that there's a very distinctive star pattern in the middle of the sole. I know that pattern. And it's my Doc Marten boots that are sitting just inside the back door covered in mud. It was my own boots that had somehow walked themselves around the kitchen floor and then gone back to where they were. And at that point I just thought, I'm really scared now because I actually can't. I can't find an explanation or anything that I can convince myself has happened other than what's happened. So I shake myself off into town into a bookshop that was kind of like a quite a spiritual place. They sold kind of books on ghosts and animals, spirits and all that kind of thing. And I was determined to find a book that would tell me how to help these spirits to move on. So I picked one off the shelf, and I'm just having a look to see if there are any others. And this man came up to me. Unbeknownst to me, he was a psychic doing readings there that day, and he was on his break and he came up to me and he said, you can feel them, can't you? It's just like ice went down my back. I was like, please don't make this any more real than it's already been made. But he was determined that was what was going to happen. So I kind of stammered that yes, I could. And he said, yeah, one of them, he said, he's got quite a distinctive walking stick. It's like he described the only one that I had had an image of. He described him exactly. And I kind of stood there thinking, I'm becoming more scared by the second. I don't actually remember what else he said to me. I was so scared, I paid for the book and left the shop. And I just thought, I can't go home. I just can't, because he's made that. He's even described the same one that I had the image of. To me, there's nothing I can do now, and I'm too scared to go home. So I actually went. I drove to my friend's house who I knew would believe me because she was renovating her house. She was Living in a mobile home while renovating her house. And various people had gone to see her and said they'd seen somebody waving from an upstairs window. Well, there was no floral in the house, so nobody could have been up there. So. Because those kind of things had been happening to her, I knew that she would believe me when I. So I just went and spilled it all out to her. And she just said, all you can do is just do what that book says. Just go back there and do what that book says. Sorry about the book.

B (51:17)

Can I. Can I interrupt real quickly?

A (51:19)

Yep.

B (51:21)

How did it feel? Let's go back to the bookshop. When that guy said that.

A (51:28)

Yeah.

B (51:30)

Was. I know you said you were really scared, but was there any relief to it? Like, I'm not going freaking crazy? Like, none.

A (51:40)

No, no. None whatsoever.

B (51:41)

Okay.

A (51:42)

I knew it was real, and he. He just broke down the last of my barriers to admitting it to myself.

B (51:50)

And when you told your friend, was that because you think about this, you're married to someone that you cannot tell this stuff to.

A (51:59)

Yeah.

B (51:59)

Did you find that when you told her, there was a. Like a weight came off your shoulders?

A (52:04)

Yeah, it definitely. It helped. It helped. And her talking it through with her gave me the strength to go home. I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't been able to go and talk to her. And it was needed to be somebody who didn't live there, because if I told Darren and he had felt scared and I'd seen any fear in his eyes, I wouldn't. Just wouldn't have been able to go back in there. It just frightened me too much. Oh. What I. I remember. Just remembered. And what the psychic guy, he said to me when he described that. That the elderly gentleman, he said, they're not there because of the property. They're a working group, and they're there because of you. Which actually made sense as to why I didn't pick them up when we went to view the house. I didn't pick them up until the day we moved in, but actually didn't help me at all because it didn't make me feel any better.

B (52:57)

Right. So did he give you some idea of what their purpose was? To be there for you?

A (53:05)

No. That's all he said, was that they're a working group and they were there for me. And so I went back, I read the book, and the two pieces of advice that I took away from it were. The first piece was to play music really loudly, almost so loud it would shake the building. You know, so that if there was anything stuck, it could help it to shake loose and leave. And the other thing it told me to do was to mentally go round each room in the house and fill each room with white light. So I thought, right, I'm going to do that. So every. Every night when I went to bed, before I went off to sleep, mentally, I would go around each room of the house and fill it with white light. And I could do it with every room in the house except for the main room that used to be ours and we'd moved out of. Because I couldn't bear it in there. And what would happen, I'd fill it with light and it would just. It was almost like it was sucked into a black hole straight away. It would disappear again over time. I kept doing it over days, weeks and into months. I got to the point where I could fill more of the room and for longer until it got to the point where I could actually fill the room. One night I would actually manage to fill the room and keep it there. And it didn't disappear. It was either the night or two nights after that I'd gone to bed, done the same thing. Darren was just falling asleep beside me. And I just had the most horrible feeling. It was almost like insects were crawling on the inside of my skin. And I thought I was going to be sick. And I had this awful feeling of foreboding, just terrifying. And I just rolled over and put my arm across Darren's chest. I don't know how I thought I was going to protect him, but I kind of felt a need to try and protect him. And he kind of murmured. Cause he was just about awake, still hadn't gone off to sleep. And about 10 minutes later, there was this almighty crash in the loft above us, which is empty. It sounded like there was a wardrobe up there that had fallen over and landed on the floor. The crash was that loud. Darren almost jumped out of his skin. And because my arm was over his chest, I could feel his heart hammering. So I thought, okay, well, it's not just me. I didn't imagine we were. We both just heard that crash. And I then realized what it means to be paralyzed by fear. Because I literally couldn't have moved if I'd wanted to. I couldn't even feel my body. I was so frightened. And neither of us talked about it to each other. We both felt it. And it frightened both of us so much. It was two or three days before I spoke to my friend that I told about who I'd gone to after the bookshop incident. And she said, darren just rang me from work and told me about that so we could both tell her because she didn't live there. But we hadn't been able to tell each other for the same reason, probably because it was making it real. But after that happened, that was it. They went, Everything disappeared. And the first that I knew that anybody else had had any of that experience was my sister came to stay probably three or four weeks after that with her little bo. And she went to put her bags up in that main room, the guest room, because I had people staying there, because as far as I knew that no one else was aware of it, so it wasn't frightening them. But she came downstairs and said, oh, my God, thank goodness. I don't know what you've done, but that room, I hated staying in that room every time we've come up here. I hated staying in that room because I felt like people were watching me all the time. But she said, it feels fine in there now, so whatever you've done, thank goodness. And so she'd. My sister had been aware of it as well. And he also not said anything, probably for the same reason as me.

B (56:57)

And did you then spill your guts and tell her the whole story?

A (57:00)

I did, yeah. And it was from. From going to university thinking science could explain everything. Literally from day one of moving into this property and the months that followed. It's a case of, okay, I'm more open now. I know that the paranormal exists. I know that death isn't the end of things because I've just had intimate experience of that. And also readers of the book will possibly recognize the fact that I learned that pushing white light outside of myself can hold negativity away and actually influence those that I'm sending it to. And that kind of. So that was one of the influences that came. Gave me that idea to put into the story.

B (57:50)

I've had some experiences with psychedelics in a. In a healing setting. I've never. I've never played with them. But one of the things that they will. People, you know, you guys and stuff will suggest is whatever. On your psychedelic journey, if scary things come up, if you become curious and ask them, hey, how's it going? Is there something you want me to know? And I was just. Because I was thinking about the fact that you've had these horses. We're going to get to the horse stuff here in some time, guide you and give you guidance on things. But do you realize you had a toddler give you the same advice that my psychedelic guides have given me. Yeah, you were feeding the toddler and they looked up and they went, hi. Like, hello, how's it going? Instead of. Instead of having this perspective of, oh, they're otherworldly, so thereby they are scary or dangerous or whatever. I just wonder what the experience would have been like if you had. Have embraced and, like, instead of playing loud music, like, hey, how's it going? That's a beautiful walking stick you have there.

A (59:03)

Yeah.

B (59:04)

You know what I mean? I wonder would the experience. How that experience would have played out if that had happened. That's. I mean, that's hard to do, whether you're in the psychedelic world or in living in the house with the beings, you know?

A (59:19)

Yeah. And looking back, it's interesting that if the guy was right and they were a working group there to help me, I guess in that sense, they did help me because I learned how strong I am when I'm being positive rather than being fearful. And they absolutely helped me from that point of view. And it's something that I've never forgotten and I felt was important enough to put into the book, you know, as part of the story, but nevertheless, in real life, it works.

B (59:55)

So when I asked you earlier on about where did all this. Where did this wisdom that you put in the book, where did it come from? You said experiences, haunted house and health issues.

A (60:05)

Yeah.

B (60:06)

How did the. How did the. What part do you feel like health issues played in this?

A (60:11)

So again, the move to Wales just kicked everything off. Haunting from day one. Two months after we'd been there, I had a kidney infection. I don't know if you have had one or know anyone who has, but it's the worst flu ever. It's the only illness I've ever had where I couldn't get out of bed. I was very ill. And then I had another one two months after that. So the doctor sent me to the hospital to have scans and tests and things. And it transpired that I had kidney stones. And they said if it was just loose kidney stones, we could laser them, it would break them up and you'd be able to pass it normally. But my kidney stones were enclosed within a cyst in the kidney. So they said the only way we can get those stones out is to operate, surgically, remove them. So I said, okay, that's fine. But what did I do to cause. Why are they there? Because it's one thing taking them out, but what's the cause of it? Because otherwise that I could just make new ones, you know, and Then I'm always going to have this debilitating situation that keeps coming up. So how do I stop it happening again? And they couldn't tell me. So the scientist in me is thinking, well, that's just not right. I need to find what's causing it. I need to take responsibility for that side of it and find out what's causing it. And I did an awful lot of research, and as soon as I came across the information that emotions can cause physical symptoms, that had a ring of truth about it, particularly the emotions that can cause problems with kidneys, that resonated with me. So I thought, huh, Right. Okay, so now I'm on to something. And in the meantime, while I was waiting for the surgery, I was recommended to have health, to have support, to kind of manage the symptoms from a health professional who happened to be psychic. And he not only confirmed that it was an emotional issue, but he. From nowhere. I was just. I was just expecting to have, like, a treatment that would help my body to kind of stay in some kind of balance while I was waiting for surgery. I wasn't prepared for him to tell. Tell me that not only was it emotional issue, but the emotions were those that I carried into this lifetime from one two incarnations ago. And that just your average.

B (62:50)

Yes, just your average conversation.

A (62:53)

Yeah, I didn't. To be fair, I did know he was psychic, but I didn't know that that was what was going to come in to this, because I hadn't. I hadn't been aware of him showing that level of information before with those who'd recommended that I have help from him. And he. He said that the kidney issue was just the outer layer of the emotional baggage I brought with me. And at some point, the. My heart center had also been affected, and that was going. Sorry, I just knocked it again.

B (63:28)

You just knocked it again. So go back to, at some point, my heart.

A (63:32)

So at some point, there would be an issue in my heart, but for now, we were just going to deal with the kidney. And he said, he chose to enlighten me as to what it was that had happened two incarnations ago. And he said I was at the top of my field academically and in a position to help an awful lot of people with the knowledge I had. But I wasn't confident enough to get that knowledge out there. I kind of have a sense of what happened since then. I allowed myself to be shouted down, and I didn't get that information out there. So those people didn't have access to that information. And I literally Took that to heart to the extent that I brought that emotion with me, and it was affecting my heart in this incarnation. And because of the. The heart issue I had, I was slightly tilted internally down the right hand side, which was putting pressure on the kidney. So the emotions affecting the kidney were kind of the first layer to deal with. And the heart issue would come up at some point. So that was fine. So he supported me while I did the emotional work. I went to have the surgery, and when I woke up the morning after the surgery, I didn't have a drain in my kidney like they told me I was going to have. And I appeared to be in considerably more pain than any of the others on my ward who'd had the same surgery on the same day. And it wasn't until the doctor came to explain what happened. And he said, I'm very sorry you're in so much pain because you were on the table a long time. Because we couldn't find the cyst with the kidney stones. And we ended up having to get the radiographer back down to take more X rays because we. We couldn't find it. And we were in danger then of damaging the kidney. But he said basically the impossible had happened and the cyst and the kidney stones had completely disappeared.

B (65:30)

Wow.

A (65:32)

So that kind of open opened my worldview up even more. So I've had the hauntings. I've had this. I've had the promise of more of that to come in the form of a heart condition at some point. And I'm kind of still reeling. It was three or four years after that. I remember feeling like I had indigestion for two or three days in a row, at least three days in a row, until finally the thought went through my mind. That's funny, because sometimes when people are going to have a heart attack, they say that they felt like they've had indigestion for a few years. And as soon as I had that thought, I thought back to. I was warned I was going to have a heart issue. So I got in touch with the health professional who'd helped me before, and it was a case of more of the same. He supported me, but I needed to get to a point where my body was strong enough because this was a much bigger issue. I needed to get to a place where my body was strong enough to clear it, enter the relationship with my horse, because it was to do with confidence. And so I wasn't going to be in a position to clear it physically until I had dealt with the emotional and Mental issues. And that was where my horse pushed me. Because in order to be the type of rider she needed me to be, I had to address those issues and change myself physically from being the kind of rider who would be slightly curled up in the fetal position in a kind of a self protective kind of a way, to one that could sit strongly in my sacrum, strong in my core, open up through the chest, be there as a reference point for her to say, whatever happens with you, if you need me to help you with your balance, I'm here, I'm strong, I'm confident. She needed me to be that rider and I needed to do that in order to be in a position to release the heart issue. And so that was what happened. That's what we worked on together. I, I've jumped the gun of it here because I've missed out all of what went before between her and me, but.

B (67:48)

Right, we're going to get to that.

A (67:50)

Yeah.

B (67:51)

What sort of. So this, this guy that helped you with the emotional stuff, what sort of work did you do

A (68:00)

with the kidney issue? It was to do with. It was anxiety and fear. And how that had manifested for me was a fear of being rejected and not fitting in and taking things personally. So the emotional work I did, knowing that was the case was on learning that actually nothing's ever personal because anything ever said, anyone ever says to me is through their own filter of their own experience. And so as long as I haven't done anything that's intentionally damaging to somebody, their perception of me is just their perception of me. So it's not something that I need to concern myself with. So I needed to get myself into a place where other people's opinions of me couldn't affect me. So that was the emotional work I did for the kidney, for the heart, it was about confidence. And so in terms of having a horse who was saying to me, I'm unbalanced, I'm on my forehand, I don't want to be down here, but I want you to ride me, but I need you to help me to sit up and back and find my balance. And I'm on her back thinking, I don't think I can do this. I'm not a good enough rider. I'm not strong enough. I can feel I'm not. She just needed to pull down and I did. I just pulled over her head. I had no core strength in order to do that. And the posture of people who are underconfident like I was, tends to be slightly hunched like that. Lucky Protection, protective. And it's a very vulnerable thing. It was a very vulnerable thing for me to do, to learn to open my chest. And even when I was in situations where I didn't necessarily feel very secure, for example, I'd asked my horse to do something and she was saying, but you're not supporting me properly, I can't do this. And she's on the, the verge of having a hissy fit for me to stay open and strong and say it's fine, have a hit, you know, do what you need to do because I'm not moving, I'm staying here and I'm confident. So it was a case of building up my confidence, changing my posture so that I could open and be confident. You know, like performers who sing, they'll tend to stand with their chest out and their arms back because it's all coming out here. Confidence and self expression was just not something I was comfortable with. But I had to do the work to get comfortable with it so that I could be strong for her. And in doing so, I put myself in a place where I had the confidence and my body was strong enough that the emotions that had lodged in the heart center just had nowhere to be, if that makes sense. It was tight, I could clear them.

B (71:02)

Can we get back to the kidney thing? Because you, you said the, you know what you cleared, but you didn't say how you cleared it. Was it like, was it like talk therapy? Was it affirmations? Was it emdr? Was it what, what exactly did you do for the kidney?

A (71:21)

It was just on a, on a day to day basis noticing my reaction to things and where, where I would have taken something on board and felt hurt or something like that. Just catching myself every time and thinking, but that's not personal. There's a re. Reevaluating how I needed to take in information and how it's. What tends to happen with clearing emotions is that you kind of need to find yourself in the same position as where the emotional blockage happened, but learn a different way to respond to it so that you shift physically and that emotion doesn't have anywhere to be. And it was interesting because at one point in that process I'd had the two major kidney infections and I responded in my old pattern and I caught myself and I thought, no, no, no, no, no, I can't do that because I'm going to haven't done kidney infection. And I started being sick. I had the temperature and I thought, oh, it's too late, I haven't caught myself in time. And I spoke to the guy who was helping me, and I said, do I need to go ahead and have this infection? I know what I've done, and I've already stopped it. I've caught myself. I've changed my view of the situation. And he said, no, you don't. He said, we'll arrange it that you just need to have a minor urinary infection instead. The temperature went, the vomiting stops, and I just had a urinary infection and just cleared it within a couple of days. It's that immediate. At that point,

B (73:01)

your life is crazy. Like, I know, like the whole bit, but especially you get sent to this health professional because you had a health problem, not because he was a psychic health professional, but you know what I mean? Like, the.

A (73:15)

I did. To be fair, I did. I did know. I did know he was. And the people. The people. It was friends who recommended me to him did know that, too. It's just. It. I wasn't expecting that aspect to be involved.

B (73:26)

Right.

A (73:26)

Yeah.

B (73:27)

That's what I'm.

A (73:27)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (73:28)

Yes. Holy cow. This. I'm. Let me take a breath here, because I've been sitting on the edge of my seat here, like, I'm. I'm tired from clenching. I was. Wow, what a story.

A (73:42)

I was just gonna say, you couldn't write it, could you? But then I kind of did, because you can see now why I couldn't contain it all. Because there was all of these things that were just challenging me constantly to reassess how I thought of things. And it got to a point where it's like, I just can't contain all of this. How do I go on through life with all of this inside me? I can't, actually. Can't. It needs to come out somehow. So that was how it came out.

B (74:08)

See, See, this is. This is what the Journey on Podcast is about. It's like, I read your book, and I'm like, she knows things that. She knows. Deep wisdom. Deep, deep, deep, deep wisdom. You know, did you. Like I said in the beginning, did you spend a year in a cave in Tibet? Did you go to an ashram in India for six years? Like, you know, and I knew there was a. I knew there was a reason it was there. I just didn't know where it was going to take us. And it's taken us in a direction that I had no idea it was going to go into.

A (74:38)

This is cool.

B (74:40)

So I want to get to the horse part of this, but before we do, I just wanted to share with you. I'M reading a book at the moment about removing stuck emotions. And one of the things he talks about is addictions, like things you do to numb those emotions. But he said. But he said these stuck emotions, they either end up in addictions or afflictions.

A (75:03)

Okay. Yeah.

B (75:04)

And. Yeah, so with your case, it's an. It's an affliction and it's. The whole thing is. Yeah, it's a. It's addictions or afflictions. And I've never actually heard. I mean, I, you know, I. I totally understand that, you know, disease is disease in the body, but I'd never heard those two words, addiction or affliction put together. And it was just. I read that last night.

A (75:31)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (75:32)

And then I hear I'm having this conversation with you.

A (75:34)

Yeah, I had to.

B (75:35)

I had the weirdest thing happen yesterday. You'll appreciate this.

A (75:38)

Yeah.

B (75:39)

I was making a video talking about horses nervous system states. And it's for my. It's for my video library. And it's like one of the introduction. We're redoing our video lab and it's one of the early introduction sort of videos. So it's. I'm not working with the horse. I'm sitting in a chair on our places. So we have 43 acres that's kind of covered in oak trees with Spanish moss hanging off it. And I'm talking about the nervous system states, and I'm talking about what happens in the wild, and nervous system states. And I happen to say. So let's say the gazelle. There's a gazelle and he's out there and he's grazing. And then a lion shows up and chases him. He's going to go into flight mode, so his body's going to flood with adrenaline. The blood runs to his muscles, and he's going to run away from the lion. And while I'm saying this, in the background behind me, a herd of deer that are around here get the zoomies, and they're actually running through, like, right as I'm saying, a gazelle's being chased by a lion. About six or seven deer, like one after another, zoom through the back of the thing. And I didn't even know it happened. It wasn't until I was editing the footage last night. I'm like, come and have a look at this. So they zoom in, zoom past, and then they kind of disappear back behind the hill. And then from the same direction they came from the first time, they zoom past again, and then they disappear, and then they zoom past again. All While I was talking about that exact.

A (77:02)

Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it, that deer. Yeah.

B (77:07)

And I've never, I've probably seen deer here, have the zoomies probably once before, really?

A (77:13)

And they did it three times.

B (77:15)

I've seen. I've seen deer quite a bit, but I've only ever seen. I saw one one day there was like a herd of deer and they were kind of split into two groups and this one deer was having the Zoomies from one to the other. It was like a. He's like a border collie running around the house or something, you know, and he'd run around one and he'd go up the other. But I. It's the only time I've ever seen it before. But it happened three times while I was talking about that exact nervous system state.

A (77:39)

Amazing, isn't it?

B (77:41)

Oh, it was, it was, it was.

A (77:44)

And you're thinking to yourself, did that just really happen?

B (77:47)

I've captured. It's on video and I saw it and I've watched the video several times and they're still there. Yeah, they weren't, they weren't the beans in the upstairs bedroom, you know, but yeah, funny. So, okay, so now let's get into the horse and the thing that. Because when you tell a story, I don't want to interrupt you, so I want to give you some points to cover when you start telling about this stuff.

A (78:17)

Okay.

B (78:18)

When, when your horse does start sending you messages, how do you receive them? Are they a thought? Are they a picture? Are they a feeling? Are they, is it a voice? Any or all the above? So I don't want to be interrupting you, but when you get to that part, I want to, I want to know how that comes to you.

A (78:38)

Okay.

B (78:40)

And what was the beginning?

A (78:41)

So we're winding back to moving to Wales. So we've covered the horn too. We've covered the illness. We're moving back to there. Us moving up there on that day with the intention at some point in the distant future of each having a youngster. And so the day we move in, friends came to help us move in. And my friend has a story that her friend rescued a horse the day before. A two year old colored gelding who was in a desperate state. She didn't have room for him. Would we be interested in giving him a home? So of course, as you do, we just moved up there. We unloaded all the boxes, went to bed, got up the next morning, everything's still packed up. We just found the box with the breakfast bowls in, had Breakfast, fed the dogs, got in the car and went to see this horse and just left everything to be unpacked. Like horse people won't be surprised by that. Anybody other than a horse person might just think that's weird, but obviously you won't. We didn't. So we just ignored all of that and went off to see this youngster who was living on the hillside in the middle of Wales. And parts of me wondered then, is this the one? Because she said he's colored. He's not a mare, but he's colored. Is this the one? So the part of me was wondering, we turn up to this place the lady there called him, and there's this thundering of hooves and this. Well, I mean we knew he was a horse, but we wouldn't have known that if we hadn't been told already because he just looked like four feet. Feet and a head landed on the yard in front of us from nowhere. He was just this ungainly, goofy clown of a horse with just the biggest personality and the most amazing sense of humor. And it was just obvious then that we were going to have him and also that he was going to be my husband's partner because the two of them were just. He was the equine version of my husband really. They just clicked from the word go. So. So having said we were going to wait for a year or two. We'd been there one day and we'd already agreed to have this horse. And the lady kindly agreed to keep him for a couple of months so that we could renovate an extra stable because we only had two for the two we already had. So we went back again and Darren and I remember having the conversation, that's it. We didn't intend to have him this early. We're at full stretch just being money wise because we bought this place that's at the top of our budget and it needs all this work doing. We haven't got time. We've already got a horse we didn't intend to have. So that's it, you know, I'm not looking for my youngster yet. That we just agreed on that. So that was June, it was about October. I used to go down to a rescue center in South Wales and donate my time to go and check their saddles and. And if they had new cases in that had been rehabilitated and they needed to start riding them in order to re home, then they'd just give me a call and I'd go down there and we'd work out which Saddles we could use and which padding so that the horses were comfortable. So I was doing a day of that down there and I remember I was on the last, I was seeing the last horse I was due to see that day and I was chatting to the owner while I was checking his saddle and I just happened to say, what new cases have you had in since I was here last? And she started to tell me about this four year old piebald. So I think you call them paint for piebald and scuba. So piebald is black and white mare.

B (82:16)

Piebald is black and white. Skew ball is brown and white, isn't it?

A (82:19)

Exactly. So she said they do that.

B (82:21)

They say they call that in Australia, but here in America they don't use those terms.

A (82:24)

It's just paint, isn't it in America?

B (82:26)

Yeah, paint or a pinto.

A (82:28)

Okay. So she started to describe this piebald mare who was four years old, who had been found desperately ill. I've seen the photos of her and it's just utterly heartbreaking. She was as emaciated, how she'd stayed alive because she had a three week old foal with her. But somehow she was keeping alive even in that condition. The foal was covered in lesions. And she says she's just the most amazing looking mare because she's got two blue eyes. And obviously that was something when those images that kept flitting in my mind of this colored mare and there was something about blue eyes, one or two blue eyes. And as soon as she was describing her, a tingle went down my spine. And having agreed with my husband that we weren't going to have any more horses just yet, I just found myself saying to Jenny, could I go? Could I come and see her? So she said, yeah, yeah, of course. So I finished, I was working on the horse I was working on and we walked down to see where this mare was who now been rehabilitated. She'd been there three or four months with her foal. And I remember reaching the fence and she was just in the field just in front of me and she was grazing with her foal next to her. And she raised her head and looked at me with those amazing blue eyes. And I heard this voice in my head saying, you're here. And it was just this instant recognition. And I just found myself saying to Jenny, how do I adopt her? Could I. I didn't even ring my husband and speak to him. I just said, how? How do I adopt her? What do I do? What forms do I need to fill in because I knew, I 100% knew she was, she was the one. And I, I got home that evening and I, I said to Darren, could you just come and sit down for a second? And I said to him, I'm really sorry. I knew, I, we said, well, I wasn't going to do this, but I found my horse and I told him what had happened and he, he kind of went a shade of gray. His skin actually turned, went gray. So I thought I'll, I'll just leave him there for a bit. He'll just let that sink in and I'll go somewhere else just in case he needs to let any emotion out anywhere. But I think I had obviously been impassioned enough that he realized I wasn't just saying that she was the one that I needed to have in my life. So I filled out the forms and again they agreed to keep her for a few months so we could renovate another stable quickly. And they delivered her the following January. And so I took delivery of this four year old mare who'd been barely handled and yet I didn't see her as a baby horse. I'd been involved with baby horses before as part of working in the riding school and with the show jumpers. I know how baby horses respond to things and with initial handling and how I'd been taught to do everything. But I was seeing a four year old mare and I was sensing an 80 year old little old lady who knew everything. And again, it was that kind of mismatch. And she wasn't pretending to be anything else. She wasn't behaving like a four year old mare either. She was just so sure of herself. And despite not having had much handling, I just seemed to know how she needed me to do everything, as if we'd known each other before. And that curiosity I'd felt when I was growing up and curious about why, when I didn't really feel safe or secure riding horses, why did I keep going back for more? What was I searching for? As soon as she arrived with us, I knew it was her. I kept going back because inside I wouldn't have stopped, I would have felt restless until I found her. And that all of that need to keep searching and the restlessness just stopped. And I just thought, she's here, I've done it. I found her, this is the one. And she was just the most incredible horse. I left her alone for a bit because when they delivered her to me, they brought her foal as well. So her foal stayed with me for a bit until she was weaned. And then a friend of mine adopted her foal. And I just felt she was a very big foal. And it had taken its toll on PI, obviously carrying her while she was so severely neglected and everything that had happened to her. So I just gave her so some time, thinking she'd just appreciate some time just kind of settling in, kind of regrouping, as it were. How wrong was I? She wanted to get going. She wanted to start interacting with me all the time, working together. So I started to do groundwork with her. And I'd started to learn a bit of natural horsemanship and kind of doing some. Some playing games with her and things just to kind of get the communication going with her, which she really enjoyed to start with, and was very willing, very interactive until the day came where she wasn't. And she was very flat. Didn't really want to do what we were doing, even though she. She'd proven herself to be very good at it and very sensitive. And I felt like we had a really good working relationship. So I just said, okay, she's not feeling it today. We'll just stop. So I just took her head collar off and it was quite a warm day. So she took herself off to the river that ran along the bottom of our field. And she was standing in the river, just cooling herself off and having a drink. So I just went and sat on the bank and I just thought to myself, what is it? What have I done wrong? What's not working? And she lifted her head, looked me straight in the eyes, and this was the. I'd had the communication when I first saw her. And I heard the words in my head, you're here. Which I knew didn't come from me, but this was something completely different. She. I felt a whole load of information enter my body via my solar plexus. I didn't even know what my solar plexus was at the time. I just knew where all of that information came in and found out later. That's what it's called. I felt it all come in, and I knew exactly what she was communicating to me. But it took me. I sat there and it took me three quarters of an hour to separate out all of the information she gave me into a form that my brain could then make sense of and store in the way that we would normally communicate, if that makes sense. I didn't really need to do it because I knew what she was communicating to me, but my brain wanted to do that. And that's how long it took me. And I can't remember most of what it was. It was to do with how I was working with her and what she wanted from me. But one thing I do remember, because it made me laugh so much at the time, and I felt really stupid for not seeing that from her point of view, knowing how I'd already got a grasp of how intelligent she was. She was saying to me that I'd kind of gone along with the notion that it was a good idea to do the same kind of groundwork before working with her every time to kind of check out how she was feeling, that kind of thing. Her view on that was that doing that with her was the equivalent of me reciting the Alphabet to myself before every time I'd write or read something. So she was just saying, we've done that. I've got that. Don't insult my intelligence by doing that over and over again. What are we doing now? And it was very much her modus operandum, was to keep driving forward. And as soon as we've got one thing, we need to drive forward and learn the next thing. We're not going over stuff we've done before. There's no need to do that. I'll let you know if I'm not in the mood for it. You don't need to do that. And it just made me laugh because I just felt so. I felt a bit of an idiot, to be honest, for thinking that I did need to do that. When she put it like that.

B (90:31)

You know, it's interesting. There is a. Years ago, I took a. A clicker training online clicker training course by a lady named Alexander Curland. And in. In that she talks about, you know, like, teaching a little behavior. She calls that behavioral loop. Like, if you can get that behavior to occur, if your ask is right, their response is right, and you get the right answer. The boy does everything right. It's a loop. And she says when your loop is clean, you're allowed to move on.

A (91:03)

Yeah.

B (91:04)

And then she says, if your loop is clean, you have to move on. Meaning if they. If they know it. Yeah, don't do that anymore. Go to the next thing.

A (91:15)

Yeah.

B (91:16)

But you've got to make sure they know it. And so if your loop is clean, you're allowed to move on. Yeah, as a matter of fact, if your loop is clean, you have to move on. And this sounds exactly. You know, this is some. I'm talking about a. An online clicker training course. And you're Talking about a horse standing knee deep in the water, looking straight at you, going, telling you exactly the same thing.

A (91:37)

Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, I was under no illusion then that we weren't going to be standing still for very long doing anything. She wanted to get on with things. So I started the process of introducing a saddle. I intended to just back her in a head collar because I didn't know what she would need. But I felt from a security point of view I'd prefer to have a saddle to hang onto. Cause I didn't know what her reaction was were going to be when I started her. So I introduced it to the saddle and it was only a few days.

B (92:10)

Can I interrupt for a second? I had a thought a minute ago. So, you know, you were talking before about the insecurity in your shoulders not being open, all that sort of thing. And if you think about what she said to you, have you thought. And I want to know if you've thought about this. It was about your fear. Like you don't need to go through all that basic stuff to make sure you're going to be safe.

A (92:34)

Yeah.

B (92:37)

You feel that's what she was telling you.

A (92:38)

Yeah, right. Yeah. Right from the work.

B (92:40)

There's no need to operate from a, from a, from a perspective of fear.

A (92:46)

Absolutely. She, she knew right from the. She had me sussed right from the word go and knew what she was dealing with. Absolutely. And I felt like she took it. I almost felt like she was a person taking me by the hand and going, come on, come on, we're going that way. We're not standing around here, we're going that way. That was how it always felt with her, that she wasn't going to stand around and wait for anything. So with a couple of days of with the saddle, my experience was take things slowly so that young horses don't feel rushed so that they get used to the feel of the saddle. So we're walking across the side of a hill and Darren was leading her with the head the of collar and I was just walking next to her with my hand in the stirrup, just teaching her what leg aids I was going to be using once I was on board. And she. Darren doesn't pick up information communication from horses. But she stopped where she was, turned round to me and let out the biggest sigh ever. And even Darren said to me, I think she just wants you to get on. L think, I think she does. We're on the side of a hill. This is not a good place to be doing this. But you know let's just go with it. She wants me to get on, so I'll get on. So Darren gave me a leg up and then led me and she was like, thank goodness she's on board. Hooray, let's move forward again. So I was kind of feeling then I had been the kind of rider who might ride once or twice a week, maybe once or twice a month if I had an awful lot on, I didn't kind of really feel pushed to do an awful lot. It was made very clear to me very quickly we were going to to be doing something at least six days a week and if we didn't, she'd come onto the yard and kick the yard gate until I went out there and got her ready and did something with her. That was how demanding she was. At that point, I was in absolutely no two minds about what she wanted. So that was another way of communicating. When she felt it needed something that was very physical and that I couldn't ignore, she would do that kind of thing as well. So I started to, I started to ride her more and it was clear as soon as I started to ride her, it felt to me like I was kind of sitting on her and she was sloping down away from me. And I had had an osteopath helping her right from when I first had her because she, and he pointed out to me that confirmation at least, she wasn't very well put together. Her front cannon bones were quite short compared with the rear cannon bones. So she kind of had downhill conformation to start with. She'd had a huge foal which had pulled her back down. So she was kind of, even for a young horse, kind of sagging in the middle. So he'd been working with that to make sure she was strong enough before I started her. And I felt that she didn't feel she was struggling to carry a rider. And at this point I started to take instruction from the osteopath who was also an expert in equine biomechanics. And he enlightened me as to the fact that in his view, horses are built with a blueprint for health. And the way a lot of horses are being ridden was riding away from that blueprint for health. And I was very keen that I wasn't going to add to her problems and do that. So the way he taught me to look at what I was doing with her and to see the way forward was to appreciate that there's a three dimensional point of balance within every horse. So looking front to back, there's kind of a point front to back, up and down and left to right. If there's a three dimensional point where all of those cross. If you could, if, obviously you wouldn't do this to a live horse, but if you put a pole through there and lifted them off the ground, they would be in perfect balance with kind of no rotation anywhere. And that point of balance tends to be for the horse to be healthy, up, kind of behind, at the top of the withers, behind the withers, up in that direction. And what he was saying was because of where we sit when we ride horses, we tend to push that point of balance forward and down. And obviously for a horse like PI, who already had downhill confirmation, to then be carrying me so that her balance was pushed further forward and down was going to put her at risk of injury at some point. And not just that, but from a. As I was finding out to do with my health issues, pushing her onto her forehead so that she would shut down would also cause her confidence issues, self expression issues, all that kind of thing. So he taught me to be able to see the point of balance from the side before I got on. And what I was aiming for was to have that point of balance further up and back by the time I'd finished riding. So what he was saying was that the first point with starting a horse would be to get their balance to a point where their point of balance is where it was before they were carrying a rider. But on top of that, which I got very excited about, he was saying that if you're then helping them to improve their balance further, you could actually help the point of balance to be in a better place than if they were just left alone grazing in a field. And obviously that would mean that they're more healthy, more empowered, all of that. So that was the journey we went on that is kind of described in the book. And that's what I mean, in the book, they do it in about three months, which I'm really jealous of, because it took us about 15 years to get to that point because I had so much to work through and she was compromised to start with. So it took us quite a while to get her to the point where most horses start. But we did end up in a place where her posture was uphill to the point where I could actually ride her downhill, that her posture would remain uphill because her point of balance was up and back kind of underneath where my thighs were.

B (99:11)

But she, you know, it's interesting. Sorry, I was going to say it's Interesting. You said, you know, it took me quite a while to get to the point to where most horses start. And you know, for me, helping people with their horses, a lot of times, you know, horses have had traumatic experiences with humans before so they don't trust humans. And you know, and I'm not saying they're scared of humans, but they don't necessarily feel safe. I've got this big thing I talk about feeling safe from and feeling safe with and I say, you know, I said, imagine you were with a like a 10 year old child in a room with a 10 year old child.

A (99:46)

Child.

B (99:46)

You would feel safe from the 10 year old child. They're not going to hurt you. Okay. They're not a danger to you. But I said if you're walking down a dark alley behind a biker bar with the same 10 year old child, would you feel safe with them?

A (99:59)

Right.

B (100:00)

You're safe from them, but you don't feel safe with them because they're not going to be helpful. And I feel like getting horses to where they feel safe with, yeah, humans a lot of times takes quite a bit of work. But then, and then you get to a start, that's your starting point and then you can go on from there. But until you get, you know, a lot of times horses have a lot of training and knowledge and all sorts of stuff, but they don't necessarily feel fully safe with a person. And it takes quite a while to get to that starting point. But if you don't ever get to that starting point, you can't get, the journey can't keep going. It'll get stuck at one point in time. And that sounds kind of like what you're talking about there. That.

A (100:40)

Yeah.

B (100:41)

And it's so interesting that you said that because I think that's something a lot of people miss. They're starting where they want to start, not where the horse needs to start. And sometimes it takes quite a while to get them just to a good starting point.

A (100:57)

Absolutely. And also I had so much to learn in order to be that person that could help her. You know, we challenged each other without each other's bodies stimulating each other and highlighting in each other where we needed to change. Neither of us could have done what we did. I would still be in a position, I'm sitting here now quite happily expressing myself. I wouldn't have been able to do that before I had her. I would still have been slightly like that and slightly apologetic for existing and all the rest of it. And because we both challenged each other and I Think, to be honest, I wouldn't have had the courage or the strength to push myself that hard out of my comfort zone. If I hadn't loved her so much and been so desperate to be the kind of rider that I knew she wanted me to be, because I knew what she was needing from me, I wouldn't have done it for any other reason. And so the fact that we then pushed each other and achieved. And I hung in there even when she was furious with me because I said to her, okay, you need to step under or I've got you. And then my timing was a fraction too slow and I didn't quite have her. She said, you tell me, you had me. This is what's happened. Because she was. When she was on the forehand and out of balance, she wasn't comfortable there, but at least she was comfortable by its familiarity, if that makes sense. Once she had her balance and she was strong there and able to keep herself in self carriage and she was very strong there, she was very happy there and empowered and comfortable. Those places in between where she's not quite where she needed to be, but didn't have the familiarity of being, the comfort of being where she was familiar. It's a very vulnerable place to be for me and for her. And so to keep pushing myself through that when I was feeling vulnerable and trying to be strong enough and trying desperately to improve myself so that I could say to her, no, I've got you. And I remember we got to the point where the first time I ever rode her downhill, because up until that point I would just get off if we were out riding up in the hills. It was asking too much of her to ride her downhill. I'd just get off and lead her and get back on at the bottom and. And she got to the point where she was so uphill in front of me, I thought, no, she's got this, she can do this. And we got to the brow of the hill and she stopped and she said, I can't do. I said, no, you can and I've got you. I know you're here because I can feel you. You're right up here between my thighs. And I've got you. Physically, I've got you. I'm not gonna let you go. Even if you feel you're gonna lose your balance. I've got you and I'm strong enough. We can do this. And she dithered a bit and it's like, well, I'm gonna buck. I said, no, carry on, do that. Absolutely. Get that out and she didn't quite. She kind of humped a bit and then thought she wouldn't. And then she, well, I'm going to spin round and said that, absolutely fine, do that. Do everything you need to do, get it all out there. But I'm still saying to you, we can do this. And so I just hung in there and she got all of that out and then we went down the hill and we got to the bottom of the hill and I could feel her. She would do this kind of wicker and I could actually feel it under my knee. She kind of wicked because we'd gone there and it's like we just did that and she's still up here and she's still in balance and feeling powerful and strong. It was just we spent so much time on our own, we lived in the middle of nowhere and I kind of did most of the initial stuff with her as a young horse on my own, which I just wouldn't have felt was sensible with any other horse apart from her. We spent so much time on our own, so there wasn't really any kind of witnessing going on to those moments that happened like that. But I just felt like the luckiest girl in the world just to be sharing that and to be sharing her journey with her and kind of the markers of how far we'd come to that point.

B (105:09)

You know, there's so much to that little interaction at the top of the hill right there, you know. And the first part, I feel is so important and, you know, I have a lot of people ask me questions about, I was out riding my horse the other day and they didn't want to cross the creek or whatever. And when I tried to get them to do it, they had some sort of a, you know, there was some sort of a problem. And a lot of times they say, I guarantee it had probably little to do with what happened then and it had to do with every time you failed them previously. They don't trust your judgment. So when they go, oh, I'm a bit worried, and you say, I think you can do it, they're like, get lost. You know what I mean? And so you've. You've kind of got to get to where by the time you get to those sort of challenges, they've got so much trust in. When you go, I don't think I can do it. And you can say, yes, I think you can, they believe you. And that has a lot to do with that feeling safe with bit I was talking about before. But the other thing that you did, which is the mark of someone not fearful. It's the mark of someone who's confident and you trusted your horse, is the fact she said, oh, I feel like I gotta do silly things. You're like, okay, if that's, if you've got to have a bit of a buck or a spin around, that's. That's perfectly fine. And it's a journey to get to where you can actually say, hey, do what you got to do.

A (106:35)

It really is.

B (106:35)

And, yeah, and so that's. There's a, there's a, there's a, you know, there's, you know, there's a lot of changes in the person by the time they get to that point. But the other thing, once again, you're giving the horse so much confidence, like, okay, do what you got to do. I'm. I'm fine with that. So you're not being controlling, you know, you're not being correcting. You're not saying, don't do that. And so that there's a lifetime to get to where you can, you can have both of those things go on. They trust you. And then you also tell them, I trust you as well. I mean, I feel like, I feel like trust goes both ways. And, You know, I feel like in order to have your horse trust you, you have to trust them. And I think most, a lot of people, every decision or every interaction have with their horse is communicating, I don't trust you.

A (107:36)

Yeah.

B (107:36)

And then, and then, of course, they can't trust you back.

A (107:39)

Yeah.

B (107:40)

And then the problems that come from lack of trust. People think they have these big problems, but it really comes down to some kind of esoteric stuff. Way before, you know, what happened, happened,

A (107:52)

it was such a big lesson to learn because obviously from behind, heart clearing, the heart issue, point of view, that was all about confidence. So I was very kind of keen to notice what came up in our interactions together. And I learned over the years, as time went on that confidence isn't about knowing your horse isn't going to do anything that's going to scare you. Confidence is about knowing that whatever they do, you've got, you've got them and you'll. And you'll be okay with it and you'll deal with it. Even if you come off, it'll be fine because you'll deal with it. That's what consequence is.

B (108:25)

You're fine with. Fine with whatever. You're fine with whatever outcome you're good with, whatever outcome comes along.

A (108:32)

And I needed to get to that point. Because things did happen. PI was quite sharp. She wasn't a novice ride at all. She would react to everything. Pheasants flying out of hedges, oil spots on the road, everything. But she didn't tend to overreact to anything. But I did need. I did used to wear jodhpas with kind of sticky buns, patches on just to give me that extra little bit of grip sometimes when I was needing a bit of help to stay where I was. So she was a good teacher in that respect as well. She was black and white, and far more than her coloring, she was very black and white teacher. It's okay. So you've either got this or you haven't. And if you haven't, I'm going to keep going at it till you do. Which was the kind of teacher I appreciated because it was so clear. Her feedback was so clear as to what she wanted from me. And to go back to your earlier question in terms of the communication. So from her point of view, it changed over time. That was the only time when that initial three quarters of an hour worth of information entering the solar plexus. That was the only time that happened. After that, I would hear communication in my head similar to the first time I saw her.

B (109:43)

But really only, whose voice is that in?

A (109:45)

That's a good question. You see, because it sounds like my voice, but not the tone that I would use at all. And it's the tone I tried to put across in the books by not using punctuation. When the horses talk, I try to give them because it sounds the same, but it's not the same tone. And it's not anything I would have thought because I learned over time. When I was writing that book, obviously Pye didn't say to me everything that's in that book. I didn't document what she said and then just put everything in there. Whenever it came to a place where I would need the horse to say something, I would only have to think, what would she have said if she was in this position? And I would know what she would have said because her tone and her approach to things was always the same. And to give you an example, I just went out once. I was upset because there was. I had something going on in my body and I wasn't sure I was going to be okay. And I said to her, I think this is going. I think this. This part of me is going wrong. And she said, well, whatever happens, it'll be okay. And. And it wasn't reassurance. It was a statement of Fact, it was a case of there's no point you being emotional about it, and there's no point in worrying about it, because either way it's going to be fine. And. And when. When stuff in the book. Exactly.

B (111:08)

You know, the. The thing that the horses say in the book, I will stop and stare at the wall for a bit. You're like, you gotta be kidding me. Like, that's profound. Like, deeply profound. And it's just what the horse tells Emerila, you know, And I'll. I'll just have to stop and stare at the wall. And I. I had read very few books to where they. You really got to stop and stare at the wall. Especially. Especially fiction.

A (111:35)

Yeah.

B (111:36)

I can think of one other. Have you ever heard of a book called Shantaram?

A (111:39)

No, I haven't. No. Maybe I should.

B (111:44)

Yeah, there's a book called Shantaram, and the. The second one in that series is called Mountain Shadow, but it's about a guy goes to India, has all these experiences in India, but there's a guru guy in the second book, lives on a mountain that he goes and hangs with, and they talk deep philosophy. And your book is the closest I've ever come to that, that sort of deep philosophy in a novel.

A (112:10)

Right.

B (112:10)

And I'm sure there's plenty out there, but, yeah, it's so similar. And it's like Indian holy man, horse talking to a girl. Same stuff.

A (112:20)

Yeah. She just. Whenever. Whenever she did decide to impart anything, I would always stand there and think, huh, yeah. Yeah, fair enough. I mean, that's so much of a better way of looking at it than the way I would have chosen to look at it. So, yeah, let's just go with that every time. And it was. Why writing those bits was very easy.

B (112:45)

So what was it that first made you think I should write a book?

A (112:52)

Literally, I. I cleared the heart issue, and I was literally bursting with it. And I just felt like I needed to get it all. It was too much for me to contain. That's the best way I can describe it. And I started to write it down as nonfiction, but as you've probably just gathered from me trying to tell you, so many things were all happening all at once, from the move to Wales, at literally everything. It just kicked off and I. I couldn't make it make any sense, and I felt very stilted and as if it was just wrong somehow, so I just stopped and just gave it up as a bad idea. And I love reading fantasy books. I love Robin Hobb, Raymond Feist, J.K. rowling is another example. I love reading that kind of story. And it just occurred to me once as I was reading something, I just thought, ah, it's quite interesting because the experiences that I was trying to write about are fantastical. It would be easy to just represent, to just present them as fiction because they are fantastic. Why don't I try and write it a fictional story inspired by some experiences, based quite closely on other experiences and just see what happens? And as soon as I started writing, I just couldn't stop. And I was writing it for me at that point, not for any other reason. And I told a friend I was walking my dogs with a friend of mine and she said, oh, we were just talking about what we'd been doing. And she said, can I read it? I'd only read about. I've written about five chapters at that point. And she read it and just said, well, that I'm really enjoying that. You should keep going with that and there'll be other people that will enjoy that. So that was kind of how it started. And because I didn't know what I was doing, as I've said before, I mixed genres up. An author who knows what they're doing, who's wanting to making a living out of being an author, rights to market. They know who their market is and they. They write the kind of stuff that that market's expecting. Well, I. I just mixed everything up because I wanted to write what I wanted to write. And I thought, if I'm going to do this, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna do it my way. I did go on a course down in London for a couple of days on publishing just to learn how things worked. And it was very helpful, that end of it. Yeah, yeah.

B (115:09)

Have you ever heard of a. A music producer named Rick Rubin?

A (115:13)

No.

B (115:14)

Famous music producer, won a lot of Grammys, you know, And I saw an interview with him one time and they said, so what do you do if you make music that people don't like? And he looked at the guy like he was an idiot. And he looked at me and he goes, I don't make music for other people. I make music for me. And it seems that when I make music for me, that's what's most successful. He said, if you're making music for other people, that's commerce.

A (115:43)

Yeah.

B (115:44)

That's not art.

A (115:45)

Yeah.

B (115:46)

And what you're writing is not commerce. What you're doing is not commerce. What you're doing is art.

A (115:53)

Well, I. Yeah, I wrote it to get it out I chose to self publish because I was aware that the kind of people who I I wrote it and I thought I'd publish it because I kind of thought I can't be the only one who's experienced stuff like this, any of it, even if it's just bits of it. And I felt quite alone through it because I didn't know many other people who were kind of working with their horses that way or having that kind of relationship. And I just thought maybe if I release will resonate with some people who are experiencing the same kind of thing and maybe other people might read it and be caused to just look at their horses and ask the question what if? Because in my experience that's all the horses need once they're asked for an opinion that tends to be all they need to start making changes. So I kind of thought maybe it would mean that more people could start experiencing that if they were just caused to ask the question what if some of it was based in truth? And I just kind of didn't know what I was doing at all. Decided to go down the self publishing route because I thought even if a traditional publisher was interested, which I doubted they would be because I was targeting such a niche market, they would want something that would be able to sell mainstream and sell an awful lot of. I wanted it to stay true to what it was, even if it wasn't very professional and it hadn't been through a top class editor or whatever. I just wanted it to be what it was, even if it just reached 10 people and resonated with them and exactly as you said. I think because I wrote something that meant so much to me and I didn't hold back with it, I just kind of went for. Was on the day of releasing it, I had a complete meltdown because only at that point did it occur to me that I just bared my soul to anybody who was gonna read it and I wasn't prepared to that vulnerable. I hadn't really thought about it to that point. And then I had something of a meltdown about it, which obviously then was challenging. The confidence issues that I had addressed and kind of built up and sold a lot more than I thought it was going to. So I thought, you know, maybe I'll.

B (118:17)

How did you. How did you get the word out there if you're self published, how did you market it?

A (118:22)

I initially I did a course on Facebook advertising.

B (118:28)

Okay.

A (118:28)

And learned how to use that and Amazon advertising as well so that I could kind of learn how to do all that. And that was through Facebook. Was my main way of 90 of sales were through Facebook advertising.

B (118:46)

And did, did you get a. After the success of the first one, did you get a publisher for any of the others?

A (118:52)

No, I.

B (118:52)

Or did you still publish?

A (118:53)

No, I published all of them. Yeah. For the same reason. I'd gone to a company who did all of those kind of typesetting and the COVID and everything for me. For the first two, I just paid them to do those because I didn't know how to do any of that. And then once I realized I was going to carry on writing more books, I actually did a course on self publishing and learned how to do. The only thing I don't outsource is the COVID design. I have a professional cover designer, but my original family and friends set who got roped in to begin with are still my editorial team. I've done everything against the advice of anybody wanting to make any money from self publishing, but between us, we've kind of found a way to make it work. And it was just important to me because of how the information, so much of the information was coming through. I didn't want that. I needed to maintain editorial control to. To make sure that remained like that. And if I'd gone to try and get a publishing deal again, I think it's probably still too niche for anyone to be interested from that point of view. But it was just important to me that it's so.

B (120:03)

I don't feel it. I don't feel it's niche because it's not a horse book.

A (120:08)

No.

B (120:08)

You know what I mean? You kept saying before, oh yeah, anybody who wants to read this, who wants to have a. More of a relationship with their horses, I feel like it is deep philosophical wisdom that just happens to come through a horse in the book. I mean, you know, like I said, that book I was reading about, you know, the guy goes to India and he's got a guru and they live in the mountains or whatever. And it's the same information.

A (120:30)

Yeah.

B (120:31)

But I, I didn't read that book because I'm a guru person or I'm an India person or whatever. It's just. Was a great story. So I feel like. And I, I think I looked at the first book up, at least yours, the Horses Know on Amazon and it's described as teen fantasy fiction or something like that.

A (120:53)

Oh, is it. Is that where they put it?

B (120:55)

I'm pretty sure the word was teen was in there.

A (120:57)

Okay.

B (120:57)

And I was thinking, and how cool is this? Because can you imagine giving teenagers this Level of philosophical, deep wisdom. In a way, they're gonna take it in, you know what I mean? I feel like you're not the. That's what I love about this book. This book is not just, oh yeah, it's a good read. This, I feel like this book, especially teenage girls, is giving them some wisdom that some people don't ever come across in their lifetime. Some of them don't find it till their 50s or whatever, you know what I mean? That's what I'm fascinated by. And I imagine the same wisdom has come through in the other 13 books.

A (121:47)

Yeah, I've written them, they're writing. The approach to them has changed slightly with different books. Some of them I knew the whole story before I started. Some of them I knew the beginning of it and I knew that I needed to just start there and just write and see what happened. So I was discovering what was happening every bit as much as my readers have discovered it. But in terms of how the information comes through, it's been consistent all the way through. And a bit of a. A bit of a download in some, in some respects. I mean, I was writing two books a year, I think for four years, five years, and the information was just kind of coming out at a rate I couldn't really keep up with. At one point it was hard to keep up with it,

B (122:39)

but that's a question too. So I wrote a book a few years ago and you know, it's nonfiction and it's stuff I know. I teach at clinics all the time or whatever. And you put a horse in front of me and I work with it, I can have all this stuff come out. But when I sat down to write it, I'm a two finger typer sort of thing. And it was like six lanes of traffic going into one. And I kept getting stuck because it'd be coming, but I couldn't get it out in time. And then it was kind of gone.

A (123:07)

Non fiction's hard as you know, I tried it and I couldn't do it. It's really hard. It's a lot easier to write fiction in that sense and fantasy fiction because I don't have to kind of judge what's coming out. I can just go, yeah, anything will fly. It's fantasy. I'm not pretending it's real, so it's easier.

B (123:30)

A question I had. I'm gonna. By the way, I've got to get to your questions. You chose a question ahead. How far back? So that the chronologically first one. How far back is it? It's after the apocalyptic thing.

A (123:48)

Sorry, how.

B (123:50)

How far back in. In time, like how close to the apocalyptic change to the world does it start? Is there any. Does it say anything about what actually happened?

A (124:01)

Yeah, you find that out in, in some of the later books.

B (124:05)

Okay, so we're not going to give the plot away, but does it look like it's looming on our timeline?

A (124:11)

I. I've had readers email me and say, oh, my goodness, I'm reading this and slightly worried because it feels like it could happen. Yeah.

B (124:22)

Oh, God. Okay, I gotta get. I gotta. I gotta go back and read this thing. I'm gonna ask you your questions you chose, and the first question you chose is what book do you recommend to people the most? Not necessarily your favorite book to read, but one that you tell other people you should.

A (124:38)

If anyone asked me for a recommendation, I would say Harry Potter every time. If you haven't read them, read them for this. Aside from the fact that J.K. rowling is so clever and so inventive and every page is a new idea and a new delight. Aside to all of that, it goes back to what you were saying about giving young people certain philosophy and certain ideas. Her underlying. The underlying message that I picked up from reading her books is that love as an energy, it's not flashy. It's not all bells and whistles and moving cars and blowing things up, but you can't defeat it. It can't be defeated by any of the fear, any of the other types of energy. It's not possible to defeat it. Harry survives because he's got the protection his mother endowed upon him by giving her life, sacrificing herself for him because she loved him so much, and that's what saves his life all the way through. And I just think that's the message. Young people or anybody is such a powerful thing to take on board that, that it goes back to the white light thing. You know, if you're in that energy, there's very little that actually can affect you. And I think she's put that across incredibly well, as well as everything else she does.

B (126:12)

Yeah, I think, I think Harry Potter is a bit like the Matrix or Avatar. You can watch it as a movie or you can go, oh, this is. This is deep wisdom.

A (126:24)

Yeah.

B (126:25)

Okay, next question. What quote?

A (126:27)

Quote?

B (126:29)

Do you have a quote that people. You would like to share with people?

A (126:32)

I do, and it's hanging on the wall of my downstairs toilet so that I see it multiple times a day. And it's. Life isn't. Isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain. And it's just through all of the challenges that I've told you about, I just remind myself of that over and over again, is that if this wasn't happening, I wouldn't be learning stuff. So it's happening for a reason. So don't be trying to get it over and done with. Dancing it. Learn to learn to embrace it.

B (127:07)

Well, this is called the Journey on Podcast. It's about embracing the journey, not the destination.

A (127:14)

Exactly.

B (127:16)

Next question you chose was what's some, what is some bad advice people are given in your area of expertise?

A (127:25)

I, I, I think I'm choosing to my, rather than looking at the area of being an author, my experience of working in the horse world. I would say the, the worst advice I would say is any sentence that begins with horses this. So horses need this or horses want that. It's who's the horse in front of you? What do they want out of this lifetime? What do they want from you? And what do they need in order for you to help them do that? Trying to, I, I come across it not as much as I used to, but it seemed to be something. Horses shouldn't be ridden. Horses should be ridden. Horses shouldn't have bits. Horses should have bits. Horses should have. Have you asked them all, how many horses have you asked that? Because I, from my point of view, I don't, I think it's bad advice to try and, to try and think, you know, what all horses need. I think good advice is to ask each horse individually what they want and not have a preconceived idea of what's good for them and what isn't. Because that's just another human idea of what's good for them and what isn't. Not what they're, what's their, what's their main priority and what, what do they need to help them achieve that?

B (128:47)

Next question. What quality you admire in people the most?

A (128:50)

Contentment, definitely. My mum had this in spades, and I just found her the most peaceful person to be around. Somebody who can just be content doing whatever they're doing, whether it's a mundane chore, whatever they're doing, I just, just find is something that I'm striving to try and lean into and sit into and settle into is just being content regardless of the situation.

B (129:24)

Horses have that in spades too.

A (129:25)

Yeah, absolutely.

B (129:28)

They're doing what they're doing, not doing what they're doing to get to the next thing yeah. Okay. And last question. What is leadership and followership mean to you? What makes a good leader and a good follower?

A (129:42)

I think for me it's the ability to change places. I don't sit naturally into either of those categories. So I would say I think a good leader is somebody who is open to taking suggestions or advice from their followers if they know more about a certain aspect than they do. And being good follower is having the confidence to volunteer that information if it's for the. If it's going to help everyone rather than just following.

B (130:11)

It comes back to that whole hunter gatherer doing things for the good of all.

A (130:17)

Yeah.

B (130:18)

I had a. I was talking about leadership and fellowship at a horse expo years ago and I had a lady and I was talking about ballroom dancing and I had a lady come up to the booth afterwards and she's a professional ballroom dancer. And she said, you're correct. A good leader has to know how to lead, but they also have to be able to follow the follow.

A (130:43)

Yeah, they've got to be able to receive input.

B (130:46)

How much following is possible? You know, they've got to follow the follow. So they're actually. It's like passive leadership.

A (130:53)

It's.

B (130:54)

It's. Yeah, it's. Yeah. I thought that was fascinating.

A (130:57)

Yeah.

B (130:58)

Okay, so tell us, how can people find your books?

A (131:04)

They're on Amazon and any good bookstore will order them. They're unlikely to be on the shelves because they are niche, but any bookstore will order them. And my website, you can't order them directly from my website, but the website's got all the links to them.

B (131:23)

Okay, what is your website? Let's tell people about that.

A (131:26)

Lin man.

B (131:32)

And do you have another book in you?

A (131:35)

I think I've got one. I. The one that came out in October is the last one to do with horses, but I've got one more that isn't quite ready to come out that will be about dogs. I've got enough of a grasp of what it's going to be about to know it's going to be in the same world as. As the Horses Know series, but this one's going to be about dogs.

B (132:05)

You haven't had a. Haven't had a movie. People come to you and say, I want to make a movie.

A (132:13)

Yeah, the Horses. You have the Horses. No, actually is option for film at the moment. They've just done. Yeah, it was. The initial option period was 18 months and in November the option period was extended for another 18 months, which I'm not allowed to say anything about it, but the option period doesn't tend to be extended unless they think it's possibly going to happen. Yeah. They just haven't got to it actually being produced. So nothing's a given. Things can go wrong at any moment. I'm very well aware of that. But it's, it's been really nice developing a kind of a friendship of sorts with the people who are involved. They're well known. You'll know the films they've done before.

B (133:00)

Awesome. That is so cool.

A (133:04)

Yeah. So the interest this year might be an interesting year.

B (133:09)

Congrats on that. That's, I can't wait to see where that goes because.

A (133:13)

Thank you.

B (133:14)

Yeah, that's, that's super exciting. Well, we need to wrap up, but Lyn, thank you so much for joining me. I thought there was gonna be a cool story behind where the idea for the books came from. I didn't realize it was gonna be that cool.

A (133:27)

Thank you.

B (133:27)

That's one of the, it's one of the coolest stories I've ever heard, the whole thing. So thank you so much for joining me.

A (133:32)

No, thank you very much for having me.

B (133:34)

That's so much fun. And you guys at home, thanks for, thanks for joining us. And we'll catch you on the next episode of the Journey on podcast. Thanks for being on part of the Journey on Podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warwick has over 850 full length training videos on his online video library@videos.warickshiller.com Be sure to follow Warrick on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram to see his latest training advice and insights.