Warwick Schiller Host (3:46)

And here we are.

Kelly Wendorf (3:48)

And here we are. So what I. What I hope, because, you know, you and I have become friends since the last time I was here, and I, I hope that you and I feel like we can bring some things together because this is a, you know, the, The. The topic of shame is a shared experience. It's not something that only a few of us have. It's. It's part of the soup that we swim in, in this over culture and hopefully through our conversation, we can humanize this a little bit and, and demystify. Demystify it and also de. Pathologize it.

Warwick Schiller Host (4:33)

So where do you want to start?

Kelly Wendorf (4:37)

Well, maybe, you know, where my story of shame started, which was, of course, in childhood. Like probably most of us who are raised in a traditional, conventional, modern society, parenting was all about, yes, it was about love and care, and for sure, my parents loved me, and my relationship with my mother was so called perfect. But it nested inside a larger construct which has to do with domestication. So making us fit in as humans so that we're socialized to stay within the fray and be a human that everybody can accept. And so, you know, a lot of the, the parenting, the education, the schooling, you know, aunties, uncles, teachers, unwittingly, you know, nobody's fault, but used means to keep me small and bound so I could fit into a societal structure. It was all well intended. Most of it was well intended. Some of it wasn't. You know, I was bullied in high school and I was bullied in elementary school and middle school, so that that played a role. Bullying is a form of shaming that is so insidious and so prevalent in schools and has a unique imprint, but also just, you know, taught that if I'm going to belong to this family structure, that belonging was conditional. And it was conditional upon getting straight A's, pleasing my parents, being polite, not having opinions that were, you know, too edgy. And so domestication happens through the mycelium. Network of domestication is shame. It's like all these threads of diminishment and coercion and manipulation that seek to make you a viable human being in this society. So, you know, later I sort of learned how to manage this through my connection with animals, right? So I, as a horse girl, domesticating my horses to serve my interests. In a way, my own internalized oppression just came out on the horses, right. As I learned to work with horses in a very conventional power over manner. And I would just say that there was a point in my life where, and I don't know what it was, and I think it was actually having a difficult horse that was not going to toe the line, that was an outlier and a renegade, that pointed me to waking up from the trance of this domestication and put me on a different track of. That's a long track, you know, and I am still scratching at the very surface of it, for sure. But it's a track towards finding freedom from shame for myself, finding freedom for my animals still within the context that we find ourselves in. Freedom for my family, my friends, my children, my clients. And so part of that emancipation has to do with understanding how shame works in our lives, because I think most of us, and myself included, thought that shame was like a feeling, you know, like, I feel ashamed. But shame is so much more complex than that. Shame is a phenomenon that is psychological, emotional, spiritual, somatic, that works to diminish and kind of tame us into obligation, into being well behaved, into fitting in, into not coloring outside the lines. And it's working in us all the time. So it's not just a felt sense of like kind of guilt, guilt adjacent. It's a sense of, I'm not quite enough, I need to do more. What's wrong with me? Why do I still feel this way? And it forces us to kind of overreach over function, to try and mitigate these feelings of not enoughness.

Warwick Schiller Host (10:25)

So I've said a lot, but, no, that was great. Do you think, you know, we're talking about shame here, but you think that the root of shame and why it works is you want to feel safe?

Kelly Wendorf (10:44)

We want to feel safe. We want to. That's a great question. We want to feel safe. We want to belong.

Warwick Schiller Host (10:50)

That's. That's the bit I was getting. It is right. We. We need to belong because we are a social species. We. We live in groups and to be separated from the group, basically, we're hardwired to think that means death or, you know, whatever.

Kelly Wendorf (11:15)

Mm, that's right. The trouble is that the contemporary society has such rigid rules about what belonging means. So, for example, you know, one of the places where I tasted a lack of shame was in Uncle Bob's communities. Not everyone, because they also had a Lot of trauma in their communities. But there was something very fresh and different around being with Uncle Bob and his. And for those of you who haven't listened to the podcast before with you and I, Uncle Bob was my Aboriginal Australian teacher, and we spent a lot of time together. And I remember he and I having a conversation, and he said to me once, what's the hardest thing about being you? And I said, oh, well, the hardest thing about being me is that there's so much of who I really am. I feel like I have to edit in order to belong to my community, to my family. I feel like in order to make my relationship work, I have to somehow truncate parts of myself. I feel like in order to be accepted in this community, I can't really say how I feel. I talk too loud, I talk too much. You know, I'm not, like, you know, I'm not tall enough. Like, there was just all this, like, sort of stuff, and. And, you know, I present as fairly confident. But, of course, he always opened up these more vulnerable conversations, and he looked at me so quizzically. He was like, I don't understand. Like, why. Why would you feel you have to do those things in order to belong? And I couldn't really answer the question. But what. What I saw in the reflection of that conversation was that those really rigid conditionalities did not belong in his community at all. There was no, oh, you talk too loud or you're too fat or you're too skinny, or you are kind of weird and you think differently. There was none of that differences and uniqueness and diversity and oddness, and all these things were just not even celebrated. They were just, you know, part of the deal. Just like when you look at a garden, there's all this diverse stuff going on, but there's no part you're not going, oh, I celebrate all this diversity in the garden. You might say the whole thing's beautiful, but everything just gets to be as it is. The weeds, the flowers, the trees.

Warwick Schiller Host (14:18)

Right. You don't look at the weeds and say, why aren't you a rose?

Kelly Wendorf (14:21)

Right, exactly. But we do that to ourselves all the time. Why am I not a rose?

Warwick Schiller Host (14:26)

Yeah. You know, it's interesting what you said that Uncle Bob was saying. I read something a little while ago about the Dalai Lama when he first started traveling outside his country and talking to groups of people, and he didn't speak English at the time, and he had a translator and someone. He was on stage somewhere, and someone asked him through the translator, and the question was, Something about, you know, shame, self loathing, negative self talk, what, whatever it was along those lines. I asked him how to deal with that. Anyway, they, the interpreter asking the question and then the Dalai Lama interpreter question and the interpreter asked Dalai Lama question or says something in the dalang. And finally the interpreter turns to the person and looks at him and says he doesn't understand the question. Yes, like he has, he doesn't know what you're referring to. And that's like, who doesn't know what that's referring to? Like, how do you, how do you end up that way? You know, because it's so normal in our, in our, it is upbringing and society and.

Kelly Wendorf (15:40)

Yeah, well really, you know, the shame free environment and that doesn't mean like in Dalai Lama's culture there isn't discipline and accountability and remorse. Right. There's all of that stuff. And there are certain expectations around upholding the wholeness of everyone in that community. And I'm speaking with very broad brushstrokes here, but the real question is like, how did we get that? How did we get this way?

Warwick Schiller Host (16:11)

That's the question.

Kelly Wendorf (16:12)

Yes, right. Cause this, our way is a distortion. You know, we, we have two inheritances, you could say wildness and domestication. We have these two as, as human animals, we have these two inheritances. And domestication of human beings is relatively new on our 200,000 year old trajectory. And it started around the time. So you could say domestication, colonization, like some, a lot of these things sort of commingle and, and shame is the means by which we get colonized. The mean, by the means by which we become domesticated. And, and by the way, when I say undomesticated, I don't mean like running around wild with dreadlocks and completely unhinged. Undomesticated is like wholeness, you know, trueness, authenticity. So there are a lot of studies that point to around 6,000 years ago where these kinds of constructs started to come in. We went from a power with society or paradigm and started to drift into a power over. And it happened around the Fertile Crescent region. And in around 6,000 years ago, scientists are starting to see that at least this is a theory, that there were a lot of cataclysmic events that happened for humans. Floods, drought, tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanoes. And you know, back then we didn't have Internet, so people didn't see that, oh, the tsunami is happening here, but it's not happening 200 miles away. So from their point of view, where there was a huge kind of Congregation of human beings and settlements. It looked like nature was turning against them. And so very naturally they, they suffered a collective historic trauma together that created that original lie, which is we are separate from nature. Nature cannot be trusted. We can't trust each other because now our resources are limited and we need to go to war with each other and steal each other's wives. This is a relatively new phenomenon on the trajectory of the human evolution prior to 6,000 years ago. I don't think. I think it was more like Uncle Bob's and the Dalai Lama's culture. And not to romanticize it all, but just to kind of put a pin in that. The trance we find ourselves in right now, the shame driven trance, is not just the way it is. And the good news about that is that we can, you know, awaken from it, but we, but we're a little bit like fish in water with it that it's hard to see shame because it's so much a part of the water that we swim in. So I think that it's, it's important to kind of define what shame is, define what shame does, and give really practical examples of how it, you know, how it lodges inside our lives and how we can unshame. So this was, you know, what I hope to have happen in this conversation. So shame diminishes, dismisses, it, judges, it deflates, it erodes. Um, it, it keeps us small. Um, if we're not able to set a boundary, shame is at work. If we're not able to fully actualize that vocation that we really want to actualize, shame is at work. If we're not able to fully love our children in the way that we want to, shame is at work. So if we work into kind of the fascia of where shame lives in our, in our bodies and in our cells, then we're going to be able to a little bit undo how it runs our life. And I would argue work that, you know, you could go to therapy and you can go into therapy and say, hey, you know, I'm, I'm always losing my cool with my kids. Or I mean, let's just start there. And the therapist goes, well, you know, you can regulate your nervous system and you can count backwards from 10 and you know, all these sort of behavioral modification things that's only going to go so far if you don't dig under, into the root of where somewhere you believe you're out of control or somewhere you believe you're not safe or you don't belong, or you're a shitty parent or whatever. Like, dig way into that subterranean layer of where shame has made us have the experience, the trance that we are less than who we are.

Warwick Schiller Host (21:54)

Do you want to start out, because you mentioned it before, do you want to start out with a definition of shame? Do you have a definition of shame? And a question I have, too, is shame versus embarrassment. What's the difference?

Kelly Wendorf (22:08)

Yeah, that's. That's a great. That's a great question. So, like, shame and guilt are often conflated. Embarrassment. They're conflated. I would. This is just my kind of way to noodle around that. Guilt says I, you know, I did something I regret. Right. That didn't feel so good when I said that to that person. Shame says, I am a really hateful person and an unworthy person that I did that. Embarrassment is sort of similar to guilt in that this moment. You know, my cheeks are burning because I said something, and it makes me feel really awkward. Shame says, you know, there I go again, opening my big fat mouth.

Warwick Schiller Host (23:01)

Yeah, I love Brene Brown's distinction between guilt and shame. Guilt is a focus on behavior and shame as a focus on self. I did something stupid versus I am stupid.

Kelly Wendorf (23:13)

Exactly. And how. And shame is a kind of. This is why I use words like mycelium and like the fascia, because it's a. It's a deep and pervasive fracturing of your. Away from your whole self that feels true. So it's a little bit like a trance that feels reasonable. So, for example, and there's so many examples of where you kind of hear it at work. And as a coach, I have to listen for this. So if somebody says to me, my gosh, I am still working on my anger at my father, and that word still signals. This person is saying, something's wrong with me. I still haven't got it together. Why am I not getting it? And so you can hear. It's a whole network of internalized oppression that sees something less than wholeness. And how shame. Some of the work that I really, really love, and you and I both love the work of Daniel Siegel.

Warwick Schiller Host (24:32)

Right.

Kelly Wendorf (24:34)

But there is also another person whose work I love on this is a gentleman named David Bedrick, who wrote the book the Unshaming Way that I highly recommend. And he really, you know, he takes a deep dive in shame and doesn't just kind of gloss it over as something some of us experience. Sometimes he. He really dives into how it is a part of our. Of our DNA and how we operate and how we See the world and how we see ourselves and how we see our children and our horses. We can talk later about how it shows up with our, with our horses and our children. And he said, you know, it has to be. There's a, there's a sequence of events that happen that kind of put shame into our bodies when we're young. And also in through adulthood, he said, it's not enough, enough just to have an assault. So let's say, let's say that you have, Here's a great example from a friend of mine. Let's say you, you, you grew up in school and you, you, you want to go to choir class and you love to sing and, and, but you're, you're a little bit tone deaf, right? But you just love to sing and you're in first grade and you're in choir and it's first grade. Who's serious about, I mean, who cares? But, you know, a teacher comes in, grabs you by the collar, says, get out of here, you're no good at this in front of the other children. So there's the assault, the teacher grabbing you, saying, nope, not for you, go, you know, play the clarinet or something. But the people watch. There's the assault, but the shame comes in when the assault happens. And you have shaming witnesses, so that might be, or a witness, so that would be others who see the assault happening and don't do anything about it. So what it does is it sets up a kind of critical mass in the psyche that says not just one person assaulting me, but the other people seeing it happen and not correcting it. But, you know, so you have this shaming witness. So you have like all the other kids, right, who might snicker and go like, hahaha. And so that child learns that they're not good enough and that their curiosity and their wonder about singing is somehow flawed and that they don't. That, that curiosity and wonder does not belong there. And if you think, you know, Warwick, back to your own childlike hood, like, how many moments like that happened to you?

Warwick Schiller Host (27:27)

So many. You know, I think, I think, you know, I used to think I had the perfect childhood, you know, because my, you know, my parents were home every night. There was no arguing, there was no fighting. There was, it was all pretty vanilla. But I think we were. Unless it wasn't just my parents. It was everybody at the time basically controlled through, through shame and, and, and, and, and it could be subtle too. Like, I think it could be a sideways glance. And recently I was talking to somebody about, you know, someone was talking to me actually about work with me working with horses. And they said, you know, you just, I said, they said, you just notice the tiniest little things, like the littlest things. And I said, you know, I've given it some sort, some thought. And I think as a child having to notice the tiniest little things like that to feel safe. And I don't mean I was ever physically unsafe, but I imagine if you grew up in a, in a household where you were physically unsafe, you would probably be somewhat similar to where you were looking for the little, the beginning of the escalation, you know. But for me, I think it was just like little sideways glances or whatever. But, you know, am I doing the right thing? Am I doing the wrong thing or did I get a stern look or I shouldn't do that, you know, that sort of thing. And I think, and me being quite sensitive, it probably those things affected me more than my two brothers. But I feel like, yeah, having a, having a, you know, practicing for many years just noticing the tiniest little facial expressions and things like being on the lookout for that may have helped me be able to notice stuff with the horses. I'm not sure, but it's a thought.

Kelly Wendorf (29:38)

Well, absolutely. So, you know, one of the most insidious forms of being a shaming witness is silence. Right. So there was a moment when I was always collecting animals and stray animals when I was little, right. I loved just anything that needed my help, right. And I found some kittens under a, under a barn. And I just knew that if I brought them into the light of day, whatever, I wanted to be with these kittens. And my father had this unreasonable fear of, I, I think Lyme disease or some kind of tick borne disease. It was absolutely unreasonable. And we were forbidden to touch stray animals. But my desire to like cuddle these stray kittens, you know, I was four years old, right, was way like bigger than like listening to dad's lectures about don't touch the animals. So I, I told him that I found these kittens and it was one of the few times that he, I mean he, he beat me senseless. He, he dragged me into the house. Six foot four, I was four years old, like, but my, my older brother, who was probably 24 at the time, and my mother stood by, you know, they were afraid of my father. So they, I understand, like, it's, this is not about me shaming people who, you know, were shaming witnesses. But this is so prevalent in, in, in a power over culture. That, you know, they watched while this unreasonable, you know, violence happened upon a little tiny four year old girl. And so sometimes. And so it's. It, yes, what he did was awful. But the silence or the side eye or the just the look that says, I could, you know, I could cast you out of the family or I could send you to your room, which to a child feels terrible. This is the way we're tamed. And you know, what you've done is you've turned a, a challenge or a kind of a miasm that happened in your family and turned it into a skill which a lot. This is the wounded healer. Right. A lot of, A lot of us have learned to do so. You were particularly attuned to just the slightest shift in. Just the slightest shift in the energy. Right. That signaled to you, hey, Warwick, you'd better be quiet or you'd better stop doing what you're doing. Right. And you'd better. Right? And yeah. It makes me think about our animals that are so sensitive and how like my dog Molly, I have this hound dog who you met. Wow. Like she can pick up if one molecule of my energy shifts towards that. I'm displeased or, you know, or she shouldn't have done that kind of vibe. She just slinks and she was never beaten, but she cowers, like. And so my dogs have been such a great. Because they're kind of, they, they signal these things so much almost better than a horse that like a dog can show shame, you know, like, you know, when they put their tail between their legs.

Warwick Schiller Host (33:30)

When you walk into the kitchen, you find they've been in the garbage and you, you look at them and they look at you and they're like, I'm sorry.

Kelly Wendorf (33:38)

And you've got three dogs lined up.

Warwick Schiller Host (33:40)

And one's got a guilty look on his face.

Kelly Wendorf (33:42)

One did this, you know, I had one of those. I had two filet mignons on my counter at work last week, I'm telling you. So for me, you know, part of my unshaming has my unshaming journey, which is, which is my rewilding journey, which is my, you know, undomesticating journey is not only finding ways to free myself from those diminishing forces both internalized and external at me, but it's also about recognizing how, because I've been conditioned this way, that it's kind of all I know. And so I have to unlearn ways that I subtly, and sometimes not so subtly use my power to get what I want, quite frankly, which is not cool. So if I'm going to fight for my own emancipation, I have to also give emancipation to others. Right? And I think this is part of our journey as horse people too, as we look into attuned horsemanship and true liberty work. Right. Like we are actively dismantling our own relationship to power and, and using shame as, as our power over force. So what's that side I am giving my horse that might communicate displeasure? And how do I hold my horses accountable to my relationship with them without shaming them?

Warwick Schiller Host (35:43)

Great questions. I didn't even realize we're going to go with the horses here. Okay, so where, where do you, where do you really want to start to, to dive into this thing? I, I'm writing some stuff down and I love the line you said about 20 minutes, five minutes ago, waking up from this trance of domestication. And it, it really is a bit of a trance, isn't it, that, you know, you said it's like the fish in the water sort of thing. You don't know you're in it until you have it pointed out to you or you become to. You start to. You start to see it.

Kelly Wendorf (36:27)

Right.

Warwick Schiller Host (36:27)

And that, I think, I think for a lot of people that's a pretty scary moment.

Kelly Wendorf (36:34)

I think it's a very scary moment partly because we don't know what the alternative is. Right? So it's sort of like that metaphor of the caged bird that the door flings open and the bird doesn't want to go outside of what it's known, you know, who am I? Absent these frameworks, painful as they may be, who am I outside of those frameworks? You know, will I just run roughshod over everybody in my life if I allow myself to be free? Will I just go off grid and lose my mind? You know, that's what. But it's not like that. And again, I tell you, I'm. I'm just scratching, scratching, scratching the surface of this. I have my decades of indoctrination into a domesticated system and I also have all my, you know, generations before me who've been indoctrinated, and it's really quite simple. I mean, anything that makes you feel less than whole and alive and complete is shame. So if you scan your own environment, your own internal environment where you're critical of yourself, where you hyper focus, where you over function, where you try too hard, where you're impatient with yourself, you know, these are all forms of internalized shame. So I like to give examples so that, you know, it's Kind of relatable to people. But you know, shame in the name of self, self growth, shame in a therapy context would, would express itself as why am I still working on my mother stuff? How come I still doubt myself? Why am I afraid to go out at night? What's wrong with me? Pathologizing anxiety and feelings and emotions is a real great example of shame. Like I feel anxious all the time. What's wrong with me? I feel this inexplicable rage. What's wrong with me? Why am I not happier? You know, so it's very kind of mundane blanket of self messaging. And so once you start to see that you like all contemporary humans, there are very few humans in the world right now that don't have this embedded in there nervous system. Then you can start on the journey of unshaming, which is a term that David Bedrick uses. And yeah, I can hear you taking.

Warwick Schiller Host (39:56)

Sorry, no, I was just looking up. So the unshaming way. This is the David book Compassionate guide to dismantling shame. Heal from trauma, Unlearn self blame and reclaim your story. I've just got it on audible.

Kelly Wendorf (40:09)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller Host (40:10)

Have you ever heard of a book called Healing the Shame that Binds you by a guy named John Bradshaw?

Kelly Wendorf (40:14)

Yes, yes, yes. Gosh, that's. I think I must have read that book 20 years ago. It's like a classic, right?

Warwick Schiller Host (40:21)

When I read that one or actually listened to it, there was a lot of aha moments for me, like almost I thought there was a little bit of shame in there. And then I started listening to that, like, oh, my whole childhood was, you know, you were controlled through, through shame. You're a bad boy, you know, and it's. And that was. But there was something in that book that I, I tell you what, I was up the pasture here building a fence and we had an intern here at the time, a lovely lady named Jo Jo's probably, you know, early 60s maybe. But I was listening to this audiobook, Healing the Shame that binds you while I was building a fence and the guy said something about that. A lot of times when boys, when they're young, the only time you're allowed to be honest about how you feel is when you are ill. And I went, that's the way the man flu comes from. So I jumped in the ATV and I drove down to the barn and I jumped out and I said, joe, Joe, does your husband ever have the man flu? And she's like, yeah, like he's, when he's sick, he's dying. And I, you know, When I'm that sick, I'm not. And I'm like, I think I know why the man flu actually exists, because you get it cultured into you as a young boy that the only time you're allowed to be honest about how you feel is when you're sick.

Kelly Wendorf (42:03)

So wait, can you define man flu for me?

Warwick Schiller Host (42:06)

You know, a man has a cold and, oh, my God, I'm dying. And woman has the same cold, and she can go to work and juggle kids and cook the dinner. And the man's like, I'm dying. You know, like, it's the same. It's the same cold or flu or whatever that the woman has, but the woman can function and the man can't. But it was like, I wonder if that's where the man flu comes from.

Kelly Wendorf (42:30)

I think you're so onto something. In fact, I think you really hit the nail on the head. So. And that tees up one of the avenues towards unshaming. So it is the emotional experience or the felt sense experience, because so much of that is diminished. Gas lit, ignored, you know, in these shaming imprints. So another name I'll bring forward at this point is a gentleman named Dr. Mario Martinez. I know you love books, so let's do it. And Dr. Mario Martinez is a clinical neuropsychologist who wrote a book called the Mind Body Code. It's a dense book, but it's good. And a lot of his work is around. He did a lot of research on folks who made it past 100 but live past 100 and are thriving. Not just like, you know, but like, really thriving. And so he found out what kind of. One of the things he found out was how our belief systems shape our biology. And a lot of scientists are kind of doing some work on this. He talks a lot about some of the archetypal wounds that happen to us when we're children or even growing up, and how those wounds can then translate into actual physical symptoms that diminish our lives. And he said there are three archetypal wounds from his point of view. Shame, abandonment, and betrayal. And when he talks about these three archetypal wounds, he doesn't mean, like, just mental wounding. There go the balloons again. We're just gonna have some.

Warwick Schiller Host (44:28)

I think.

Kelly Wendorf (44:32)

I'm not gonna be ashamed of my.

Warwick Schiller Host (44:34)

I think the universe is saying, when Kelly says something really cool, gets on some. Something really cool, I'm gonna throw up all these balloons on the screen. Shame, abandonment, and what was the other one I was writing down?

Kelly Wendorf (44:44)

Betrayal. Yeah. And he says each of these core wounds are, you know, they're somatic. We, we don't just, we feel them through our whole body. We don't just have a, like, oh, I've been betrayed. They, they like go into our whole body. They go into our muscles and our cells. And, and he says there with those three archetypal wounds are three antidotes. And again, these antidotes are somatic. They're felt sense antidote. And the antidote for shame is honor. And the antidote for abandonment is commitment. And the antidote for betrayal is loyalty. And I would argue that another antidote for betrayal is accountability. So someone betrays you and then they, they're accountable for what they did. So there's a story in my book and I don't think we got to talk about it. Work in our last conversation together.

Warwick Schiller Host (46:06)

Let's, let's, let's talk about your book to start with. So Kelly has an amazing book called Flying Lead Change. What is the subtitle?

Kelly Wendorf (46:16)

56 million years of wisdom for Leading and Living.

Warwick Schiller Host (46:20)

There you go. Amazing book. Absolutely amazing book. I quote it all the time these days.

Kelly Wendorf (46:27)

Oh, thanks. Work. So there was this experience we had. So, you know, the book has a lot of stories about the horse assisted coaching that I do. And we had a. Several years ago we had the opportunity to work with some healthcare practitioners from the Four Corners region, from indigenous communities around that region. And we had, I don't know, 20 horses in the arena and 30 people. And my horses that I worked with at the time were all very respectful. They knew how to hold space for people and. But they did something they'd never done before and it was a little bit dis. It was alarming, frankly. The horses were just like moving through the people, bashing into them, sort of brushing past them as if they weren't in the arena, as if the people weren't there, they weren't recognizing the people. There was no contact except for brushing through. And we kind of let this happen for a few minutes and I had never seen it. I didn't know what was going on. And it took a while for us to unpack through a lot of inquiry. And as it turned out, the whole group, even though they were in there for, they were learning leadership practices and things, what they, what they actually came in for was something different. We were, we soon were to find out and after a lot of questions and everything, what, what we unearthed was that because all these people came from disenfranchised populations, people whose land had been stolen, people who had been colonized, domesticated, that is, shamed, robbed of everything. It wasn't. Even though it hadn't happened to them personally, it had happened to their ancestors and generations before them. There was a shame imprint that was pervasive amongst all the folks in there that went something like, I don't have a right to be here. So I. We. It was a little stunning and also made sense, and I don't have a right to be here. So this is just a massive shame imprints. So what we thought we'd do is, well, let's experiment with this felt sense of honor, you know, this somatic imprint of honor. And I invited everyone to kind of feel that felt sense of honor. Not like, we didn't try to go at this belief that we don't belong, you know, we didn't try to, like, heal. Was just like, well, let's just, oh, be with it, and then bring this honor in. And he. And I, I encourage people because some people are like, well, I don't know what honor even feels like. So I said, well, imagine what it would feel like. Just imagine it. And they all dropped into this felt sense of honor. And within literally, like seconds, the horses just, like, popped out of. They were like, whoa. As if the people had just appeared out of thin air. And there, you know, it's like, wait, where. Where all these people come from?

Warwick Schiller Host (50:07)

So the horses. The horses were now aware of them. Yeah. And so I just looked up honor.

Kelly Wendorf (50:18)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller Host (50:22)

This is from the Oxford Dictionary. High respect or great esteem. So I know you said you told these people to, what, feel honor, think honor, what. And what exactly does that look like or feel like?

Kelly Wendorf (50:38)

Well, just like the felt sense of honor for its own sake. Not honor, because you're an amazing person, but just honor. Like, if I were to feel.

Warwick Schiller Host (50:53)

If.

Kelly Wendorf (50:53)

If I were from Mars and I said to you, Warwick, tell me what honor feels like. How would you describe it in your body? Come on. You knew I was going to do this to you.

Warwick Schiller Host (51:09)

Well, see, I'm laughing because over the years, you know, therapists would say, so how does that feel? And I go, what? I can tell you how I. How I think about that. I can't tell you how I feel about that. Well, see, I want to. I want a broader definition of honor.

Kelly Wendorf (51:34)

I know, but that's not going to be useful in this context.

Warwick Schiller Host (51:37)

I want to think about honor, don't I?

Kelly Wendorf (51:39)

Yeah, I know you do. You do. Which is, you know. Yeah. By the way, shame disembodies us. Right.

Warwick Schiller Host (51:45)

So.

Kelly Wendorf (51:45)

So part of the Journey back to unshaming is the. The embodiment. So if you were just. And I'll just make it really easy, like, if you were to imagine what honor would feel like in your body, if somebody was really honoring you and they were like, work, you need the Nobel Peace Prize. And, like, how would that feel in your body? What would your felt sense?

Warwick Schiller Host (52:14)

I imagine the. The. The sense I'm getting is like, it's a feeling of worthiness.

Kelly Wendorf (52:23)

And where does that live in your body? Is it like, all over or is it, like in your spine? Like, what happens?

Warwick Schiller Host (52:29)

For me, I get that in my chest and torso.

Kelly Wendorf (52:33)

Nice. So it's that simple. That's all they did. That's all they did. They just turned their attention to the felt sense of honor or what honor could feel like.

Warwick Schiller Host (52:48)

So can I ask, when you, you know, you did some investigating, you figured out that they didn't feel seen or didn't feel worthy, feel like they.

Kelly Wendorf (52:57)

They belonged there.

Warwick Schiller Host (52:58)

Right. So these are people who are helping others. They're. Are they in the mental health space?

Kelly Wendorf (53:04)

I think everything.

Warwick Schiller Host (53:07)

Coaching space. Yeah. Was it a surprise to them to find out that they didn't feel worthy or seen?

Kelly Wendorf (53:17)

That they didn't feel like they had.

Warwick Schiller Host (53:18)

A right to be there?

Kelly Wendorf (53:20)

Very specific, right? Very specific. Has to do with place. Right.

Warwick Schiller Host (53:24)

And did that. Were they surprised when they came to that realization where they're like, I didn't even realize I was.

Kelly Wendorf (53:31)

That's right. Yes.

Warwick Schiller Host (53:32)

And so that's.

Kelly Wendorf (53:33)

That's right.

Warwick Schiller Host (53:34)

That's. That's kind of a waking up from a trance too. Isn't.

Kelly Wendorf (53:38)

Totally is. It? Totally is. And you see, you know, this is why oppressive cultures take people away from place because it's a form of, you know, when you're taken away from place, then the shame comes in and says, you don't belong anywhere. So, you know, it's just one of the methods. Right. But. Yeah. So.

Warwick Schiller Host (54:03)

Okay, sorry, can we back up here?

Kelly Wendorf (54:06)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller Host (54:10)

Were they that smart?

Kelly Wendorf (54:12)

Who?

Warwick Schiller Host (54:13)

The oppressors. You know. You know, like, were they aware that if I take these people away from their land, their place, they won't feel like they belong and they will be easier to manipulate? Whether you think they were, that you think they were, I won't say cunning, because they probably were cunning. But you think they were aware of. Of that, or it's just a side effect of what they were doing?

Kelly Wendorf (54:45)

I think both. I think throughout history, you see people being architects of oppression and knowing exactly what they're doing based on studying others who were architects of oppression. And some of it is just intuitive when you live inside a power over mindset. Like a bully doesn't go, hmm, I mean, he might if he's incredibly intelligent, but he can also do things that the byproduct is somebody ashamed or whatever. And he didn't necessarily like mastermind it. So I think it's both. And I think when you, when you come from an, you know, oppressors come from oppressive ideologies, like oppressors bore oppressors. And so, you know, there were indigenous peoples of old Europe that were displaced. And so they came from a long lineage of being displaced and then becoming the displacer. So it's kind of in there as well. Does that answer your question?

Warwick Schiller Host (55:54)

Yeah, I mean, it wasn't really a question, it was just kind of an observation. It's like, I was just wondering, you know, did they understand that that's exactly what they were doing or they're just being oppressive and, and that's, that's a part of it.

Kelly Wendorf (56:08)

I'd say both. Yeah.

Warwick Schiller Host (56:10)

And then if you look at the history of the world, who hasn't been displaced.

Kelly Wendorf (56:18)

Which isn't though to dismiss it. Right. The pattern of displacement and oppression, again, is new on our historic chapter, in our historic chapters, about 6,000 years. But the fact that most of us come from both being oppressed and being the oppressor doesn't diminish it. Like we don't want to normalize it. It's what I'm trying to say. Normal is undomesticated. Right, Right.

Warwick Schiller Host (57:01)

No, I wasn't trying to diminish it. I was just thinking. I was thinking. I was in Iceland and Sweden recently and I was thinking about, you know, I was learning about the history of their countries and, you know, someone came from somewhere and someone else came from somewhere and took them, you know, like, it's not just. You tend to think of, you know, so here in the United States, Native Americans in Australia, you think of aborigines. But, you know, it wasn't just limited to. To those, you know, like the Roman Empire and, you know, the, the whole bit. It's not just, it's. Yeah, it's more than. More than just some cultures.

Kelly Wendorf (57:45)

Yes, absolutely. That's. That's what I mean by. There's a great. And here's another great book, Warwick, maybe you've read it already. Ishmael.

Warwick Schiller Host (57:55)

I've got it sitting right in front of me.

Kelly Wendorf (57:58)

Such a special book.

Warwick Schiller Host (58:00)

Rashid's wife, Chrissy McDonald's. That said, have you ever read Ishmael I'm like, no. And she goes, oh, you gotta read it. Yeah, I'm reading a book now. So you think about Ishmael lies in the same kind of thing as, say, the Alchemist or the celestial prophecy or what's another one. But anyway, I'm reading a book now called the Last Shaman by a guy named William Whitecloud. Do you know who William Whitecloud is?

Kelly Wendorf (58:29)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller Host (58:30)

You do?

Kelly Wendorf (58:30)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller Host (58:32)

He used to live in Byron Bay, actually. Did he? Did he?

Kelly Wendorf (58:35)

Yeah, I remember.

Warwick Schiller Host (58:36)

Did he live in Byron Bay when you lived in Byron Bay?

Kelly Wendorf (58:38)

I think he did.

Warwick Schiller Host (58:39)

Really?

Kelly Wendorf (58:39)

Yes. Doesn't he have gray hair?

Warwick Schiller Host (58:42)

Yeah, he does now.

Kelly Wendorf (58:43)

Yeah. Well, like.

Warwick Schiller Host (58:45)

Yeah.

Kelly Wendorf (58:45)

But yes, I do.

Warwick Schiller Host (58:46)

I think he lives.

Kelly Wendorf (58:47)

In fact, I'm sure I went to a lot of parties with William.

Warwick Schiller Host (58:50)

Really?

Kelly Wendorf (58:52)

For sure.

Warwick Schiller Host (58:53)

Wow. Because I think he lives in New Mexico now.

Kelly Wendorf (58:58)

Oh, God, that's awesome.

Warwick Schiller Host (59:01)

But this book is called the Last Shaman. And it's a. You know, it's a novel, but. Oh, my goodness, I gotta stop and stare at the wall. When some of the, like, the. Some of the concepts they're talking about in it, it's a bit like, you know, ishmael, you gotta stop and look at the wall without this. These concepts are probably kind of said in a deeper sort of a way where you've really got to stop and think about it. But. Yeah, I forgot that you might have a William White Cloud.

Kelly Wendorf (59:34)

Absolutely. I think his kids went to the same preschool as my kids. Like, but, you know, Byron Bay is a small town. I call it Land of the Lotus Eaters. That's Byron Bay. But, you know, like, just to kind of take it from the, like, very big, big picture stuff to, like, me in my daily life. How do I unshame? So to. To take the honor and then apply it to those things in ourselves that we polarize against or pathologize or criticize. So let's say, for example, that I. I have this sort of curmudgeony hermit, like, kind of grinchy kind of, like, thing in here that doesn't want to go to the party or doesn't want to go out and do some things with friends. And it's this, like, thing, right? Instead of vilifying it or numbing it or putting it aside or dismissing it, what do I do? I honor it. And I turn towards it and I ask it, you know, like, what do you need? What do you want to tell me? What. What wisdom do you have for me? And instead of, like, trying to push it away, like a, you know, an Unwanted stepchild. I instead invite it into my awareness and face it and just kind of be with it and honor it. And I find out some really beautiful things so I don't have to heal my inner Grinch. I just in embracing it and listening to it, it actually has some messages. Like for example, you know, it's not the party, it's just, can we just get home by 9pm instead of stay up till midnight? You know, that kind of stuff. And it, I find that a lot of these disowned places in myself actually have important information that help me to be an ally to myself and a friend to myself and an unshaming witness to myself. And this is how we step by step unshame ourselves.

Warwick Schiller Host (62:04)

So the now I, now I kind of understand what you mean by honor. You're actually honoring the shameful thing. Yeah. Okay.

Kelly Wendorf (62:24)

You know, because who says it's shameful? I mean society does and our parents did and our bosses did. So let me give you an example. This just happened to me very recently and I'm going to give this example not to shame or vilify the folks who this happened with. Okay? I totally understand how this happens because we all live in a shame culture and so we're always doing crap to each other all the time. Right? It's okay. So that's my disclaimer. So, you know, I told you recently that I'm, you know, the primary caretaker of my 89 year old mother. And at Christmas time she took a. I mean she's been healthy, healthy, healthy like Robin's dad, you know, and active, picking up the mail until Christmas. And then suddenly she took a hard turn and everything started to unravel which fundamentally changed our relationship because she is, she lives with me, she's my tenant. And we have been very, very close all of our life. She's my best friend. I could tell her anything, we could talk about anything. But when she became very ill, the turn she started to take was away from being a mom or even a friend and towards being a child. And I found the parenting of a child who is my tenant really, really, really challenging to be with that whole enchilada 24 7. And parts of me started to emerge that I did not like. Right? Like I was more frustrated, I was more, you know, kind of like just having a hard time with it. And I let. And so it's just rife for self shaming, right? Because I'm like suddenly not the perfect daughter. And I let two friends come and stay with me for four Days, which in hindsight, I shouldn't have done because this is a very vulnerable, raw time for me and my. And a deeply, deeply personal journey I am taking with my mother. And so these two friends came, and they're really, really close friends and they're smart people and they're self aware people, and they were. And one of them was triggered by my moments of frustration with my mom. I mean, I'm not unkind with my. With my mom, but she was triggered by my moments of frustration with my mother. And so she very piously took me aside one day and talked about losing her father and how she at some point made a decision that every interaction with her father was going to be perfect. And I. And I. You can feel it, right? I just felt her piousness and her finger her. In the name of giving me good advice. I was being shamed. And, you know, I said, well, you know, did you live with your father? No. How often did you see your father? Well, once a week on Sunday afternoon. Okay. Like, this is just not the same thing. Now, that was bad. But what made it a shaming experience was that my friend, other friend who lives with her, watched this engagement. She said nothing. That was the shaming witness. And so it took me a little while to unpack because I was like, why is this sticking in me in such a hurtful, hurtful way? Like, why can't I just let this go? Can you hear all the shame thoughts? What's wrong with me? Why can't I just let this go? And so I hung out with this hurt, honored the hurt, spent time with it, and realized, oh, yeah, I was, like, really shamed in a super vulnerable moment with a shaming witness inside a place that's deeply, deeply personal for me right now and very raw. Right? So I tell that story because I think it's just a. It's just. It shows the trajectory of the shaming, the shaming witness and the unshaming journey that we have to take when those things happen.

Warwick Schiller Host (67:03)

You know, the. This, this all sounds like, you know, like the same context as, like, inner child stuff, like befriending the parts of you that you don't like or ashamed of and asking them what he. What are they here to teach you? It's almost like the instructions you get for psychedelic journeys. You know, when something scary shows up, instead of running away from it, move towards it and say, hey, how's it going? You're kind of scary looking. What are you here to tell me? What am I. What am I here to. What Have I got to learn from you?

Kelly Wendorf (67:50)

Yeah, I think it is. I think it's very, very similar to that. As long as there isn't a sort of overlay that the child has to grow up, right, or that the, the inner child has to grow up or the inner child has to like get over this. I mean, what if you're already okay just as you are with all your bits and pieces and your, your foibles and your vulnerabilities and your fragilities. What if it's all just okay, which doesn't mean, oh, I'm just never going to grow, but allowing ourselves to naturally unfurl rather than forcing ourselves from a shame and shame and blame and judging place that we are not okay as is. So there's this, this phenomenon called the paradox of change, which means when you finally let go of trying to push something to change, it can finally evolve, you know, in that space. You know, as, as we talk about this, I think about like the spaces of social media and how with all the comment section, what, what a shamey place that is with shaming witnesses. And so all it's doing is reinforcing the domestication through shame, you know, through people's, you know, just habit to shame and judge and be kind of nasty on the, in social media platforms. And then you look at the larger social context of, you know, things like toxic positivity is very shaming, you know, like, well, you know, look at the bright side. What does that do? What subtly shames that if you're upset about something or you're complaining about something, or something doesn't feel right, that that is not a good feeling to have, you know, or the spiritual bypassing, which is using a spiritual concept to bypass what's happening, you know, oh, that was in the past. Or everything is for the highest good, you know, all these like isms and truisms and things that get thrown around, but they're shame, you know, erasing. So, you know, the other day I was talking race with someone and they said, oh, well, I don't see color. Guess what? That's a really shaming, insidiously shaming comment masked as, you know, evolution. Right. As maturity. But saying I don't see color erases that. There are many people with very, very vastly different experiences in their body. It's very different to have an experience inside a black body than inside a white male body. And pretending we're all one. Kumbaya erases. So that's shaming. Yeah. And then there's just all the internalized oppression that we put on ourselves, you know, about how we should be or shouldn't be.

Warwick Schiller Host (71:33)

It's interesting you mentioned the social media thing. So here a little while ago, I finally bit the bullet. Not the whole bullet, just part of the bullet, but I finally bit the bullet and I said, I am not going to reply to anything on social media anymore. And it was pretty much a blanket thing. So if someone asks a very good question, I'm sorry, I'm not going there. And it was interesting. I, you know, I was talking about how, you know, I think maybe one of the reasons I'm quite observant with horses is because being sensitive, I had to be observant about little facial expressions, whatever. I think you're, you know, I think you, the wounded healer thing, you know, your, your trauma is your superpower sort of thing develops kind of powers in you. And I think, you know, I've become very good at explaining things, but I think the reason I became good at explaining things is because I didn't, heaven forbid, I didn't want any single person to misunderstand. I didn't want to be misunderstood by anybody. And so you, you know, explain things in 10 different ways. So not a single person in the audience doesn't get it because they might think I'm whatever. And I certainly don't want that sort of thing. But then I, I was in Sweden with Emily K's daughter up there filming for the rekindle documentary. Sean Fee, the filmmaker, was with me. And one the, I think it was the first or second day we were there. So Emily has a sanctuary for horses and lots of other animals. And she's kind of got the horses spread out all over different, different list places or whatever. And we've got a phone call that one of the horses that is on a place beside a lake, there's two horses on that place. One of them had gone to the lake to get a drink of water and got stuck in the mud. And they had to have the, the rescue, like the local fire brigade or whatever come and actually put a sling under the horse and get the horse out of the mud. They got her out of the mud and she's on the edge of the lake, but she can't get up. Like she's exhausted, you know, and it's about an hour away. So we all piling the car and we, we get up there and, you know, this horse is a bit of a mess. And so, you know, Emily starts doing some acupuncture and then they start massaging the horse and we're feeding the horse hot bran mash and the whole bit. Anyway, the guy who owns the house there, that owns the land there, so there was the, the one horse that got stuck in mud, but there's another grey horse that was, and it was standing right there, their friends and this horse just stood by his friend the whole time this thing's gone, didn't move, just stood there. And the guy who owns the place said, yes, he said, I was, I was up in the house vacuuming and over the noise of the vacuum, I heard this horse making all this noise. And I went outside and the white horse was running back and forth along at the fence, like right behind the house. And he's like, what's wrong? And so he went out there and the horse took off down towards the lake. And so he goes down and he, the, the white horse led him to the other horse kind of came up and screaming. And so I posted about this and I was talking about, in that post, I was talking about the, the sentient, the level of sentience of horses. And I said, you know, I've been struggling lately on social media because I, I think I similarly enough assume that people are aware of the level of sentience of horses that I'm now aware of. And I realize some people aren't. No judgment. But I said, I, and so for that reason, when I answer someone's question, I answer them based on the level of sentience that horses have that I'm aware of. And if you're not aware of that level of sentience, my reply to you is going to seem like gobbledygook or you're going to think I'm a complete idiot or whatever. And so I, I wrote this post about that and said, so I've decided I'm not going to, to answer any more questions on social media. And, but I, I do, I do read the comments still. But it's, what it's done for me is I don't get that rush, that, that whoosh of emotion if there's a stupid comment because I, I, I will not allow myself to respond to it so I don't have to come up with a, an answer, right? And, and I'm not talking, I'm not talking someone who's just coming completely out of left field sort of thing. But anyway, I, I, I no longer answer questions and I can read the comments. And what's funny is, you know, you don't want to be, I didn't want to be misunderstood or misinterpreted or misrepresented or whatever. And so I have a horse here. We have an intern here, and she has her horse here. He came with a great deal of separation anxiety. And we've been working through that. And it used to be you go in his pasture, he wouldn't even notice you, let alone come up to you.

Kelly Wendorf (77:23)

It's a chestnut horse, right?

Warwick Schiller Host (77:24)

Yeah, he's a chestnut. So anyway, so my, My son cut up some clips and put them as reels on. On YouTube, I think. And in this one, so I've. In this one clip, this horse is standing away from me. And I had been saying, you know, this horse used to be. I wouldn't say he was aversive to people, but people serve no purpose. From what I've seen of him here, you know, he didn't have much interest in humans. And so then I say, so with horses like this, I don't touch them first. I allow them to come to me. If they don't come to me, I don't do anything. And I said, oh, you know, I was reading a book by the guy who made my octopus teacher, Craig Foster, it's called Amphibious Soul. And in that book he says, I never touch an animal unless they touch me. Me first. And he's working with wild animals. And I said, I. I'm kind of the same. But when my son put it up, he cut out the context of it, saying that this horse used to be not interested in humans, had no interest in humans. He'd be over there pacing the fence, having separation anxiety, whatever, but that got left out. So it, it's very. It. It looks like I'm saying, I never ever touch a horse unless you touch me first. Like, if you, if you see that clip, I say, with these horses, that's the first thing I say. Well, right the 10 seconds before that, I was saying that this horse was not interested in humans. Previously not interested in humans. Well, that bit was cut out. And so that little reel went viral. It's now at like 8 point something million views. That one little thing. And every day on my YouTube channel, there's a million comments. And they're either. There's only one or two camps. One camp is, yes, I work with wild animals, and this is Q. I rescue cats. This is true. This is true. This is, you know, whatever, there's the positives, but then there's the negatives. Like, I've been around horses all my life and this guy's an idiot. And, and there's a. He's a communist and there's only two comments. This is great, or this guy's the biggest idiot you've ever seen. And because. And it just, it was perfect timing because I had decided I am not going to answer any comments, but I'm still going to read them. And so now I get to read all these people who are misunderstanding what I was saying and instead of getting in the nabbit. But my son, he left out the first bit. And because I want to please you, I've. I've had to just sit there and go, okay, think I'm idiot. Okay, you think I'm idiot. Okay, you think I'm an idiot. And just allow that to pass through me without stopping on the inside. You know what I mean? It goes in, it goes out, it doesn't lodge.

Kelly Wendorf (80:22)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller Host (80:22)

So maybe it doesn't even go in. You know, it just bounces. Well, there's so much shield, you know.

Kelly Wendorf (80:28)

There is so much to that story that I want to just unpack for people for unshaming so that they can take your example and unchain themselves. So what you did, you know, part of the unshaming practice is to be your own unshaming witness. And so being misunderstood is just like, you know, Daniel Siegel says, you know, being seen, feeling felt, getting gotten, you know, and feeling heard. When we're misunderstood, it's. It's a form of shaming because the person or people who misunderstand aren't making an attempt to understand you, so they put you into something that you're not. And so it's a very triggering shaming, you know, thing. And by you saying, you know what, I'm not going to respond to the, the comments, in effect, you're saying, I'm not going to play game. I'm not going to play ball with this pattern that says, you misunderstand me, I'm going to justify myself. You misunderstand me, I'm going to justify myself. Because as long as you engage in that, you're reinforcing the shame. Because this part, remember I said earlier, shame makes us overreach. So we over explain ourselves and we get in there and we go, yeah, but. Yeah, but. And this is who I am and get to know. And so by you, you intuitively said, that dynamic is not healthy. I'm going to step out of it. That was you being an unshaming witness and saying, I'm not going to play.

Warwick Schiller Host (82:07)

Ball with that intuitively after about 14 years of not sure, whatever it takes, whatever.

Kelly Wendorf (82:14)

But, you know, even, even that work after 14 years. So what? At least you did it right. So what? 14 years takes other 50 years. Some never right. So 14 years. Yay. There's the balloons. Maybe the balloons will come up now. See, they won't come up. So it's a great example of how you took a shaming imprint of not being understood and went right into the belly of the beast of a misunderstanding space and just said I'm not going to play ball. And now when I read these cards comments, it doesn't impact me because I've become my own unshaming witness. So it's really powerful what you did, actually. Really powerful.

Warwick Schiller Host (83:04)

It was just, I think it was just, it was a, it was a perfect storm. It all happened at the, the right time. You know, I decided to not answer comments. And then right after that this thing goes viral and you know, there's been, it's been funny like reading the comments. Probably the best one. So think about this. The, the context is about consent. And I think, I think consent with horses triggers a lot of people like it really like some people like my horse is supposed to do what I say, when I say or else sort of thing. So it's about, it's about consent. And you know, a lot of people have really focused on the I don't touch an animal unless they touch me first. Probably the best comment I've got was, does not work with bears.

Kelly Wendorf (84:02)

Okay. But you know, the other piece that is important I just wrote down discomforts. So you were willing. Part of the unshaming process is being willing to experience discomfort. So if we go with this shame imprint of wanting to be understood, we keep trying to scratch the itch by over explaining ourselves because we don't like the discomfort of other people not understanding us. And so when we're unshaming, we have to be willing to sit in the discomfort of not responding to the shaming message, the discomfort of being with the anxiety that's showing up. So instead of taking, you know, and having another glass of wine, we just, we be with the discomfort. So part of the unshaming journey is to be with discomfort. And yeah, and the reason it's really interesting you said that, you know, horse people get really, really triggered because I would say besides our dogs, our horses are the place where our internalized oppressive qualities come out on our dogs, on our horses. And I am only at the baby beginning stages of understanding what a non oppressive practice would look like with my horses and my dogs. And we do it because we don't know any better. And so when we say, you know, dagnabbit, when I tell my horse to stop, he damn well better well stop. This is our internalized oppression that we are now projecting onto our horses. And it's triggering, because this is a deeply traumatized collective space for human beings of where we have been oppressed and domesticated and shamed. And until we see it, we get really triggered when other people are liberating from that. So which lens leads me to the next piece called Tribal Shaming. So also really important and related to this, our friend Dr. Mario Martinez talks about that as we undomesticate ourselves, as we free ourselves, emancipate ourselves, unshame ourselves, we start to move out of the fray, out of the collective story, and move into being outliers. So you, Warwick, are an outlier, I'm an outlier. A lot of people in your summit and the people that you lift up are outliers, and they're pioneers and breaking new ground into the new human story. What happens is that, and you see it in your, in your, in your threads of people, in the chat space of your videos is that those that have not woken up to the shame and how it's perpetuated in their lives will tribally shame. And some folks do it on purpose, some folks don't realize they're doing it. But what's happening with tribal shaming is that the, the primitive part of our brain, the first, the, the part of our brain that developed when we were, you know, really ancient. And to that, that part of the brain is still, you know, in us, even though we live, we're, we're modern humans. That part of the brain shoots first and asks questions later. That part of the brain only knows that we are meant to live in a tribe. And if somebody ventures beyond the pale, beyond the fray, it's dangerous. It's dangerous for the tribe because maybe we've lost our hunter or our shaman, and it's dangerous for the tribe member. And so our primitive brain, which is very reptilian, will do everything it can to pull you back into the fray. And so as we start to wake up and undomesticate ourselves and unshame ourselves, we have to be aware that folks will try to drag us back in some well meaning, but it's toxic all the same and toxic. I mean, tribal shaming can express, you know, in vastly different ways. It can be really benign, like, oh, gee, Warwick, you know, you seem so tired since you started this new business that's tribal shaming or disowning, you, you know, you're no longer invited to our horse trainers convention, you know, or if people come out as gay and their family disowns them, or violence like we see happening to trans people. These are forms of tribal shaming that are basically designed to pull us back into the narrative of shame and smallness. So it's important to know it's out there as we free ourselves. Right. And as we free our horses. So you'll see it at the barn. Someone will be trying on Warwick's new. You know, they've signed up to Warwick's videos and they're doing different things with their horses and they're sharing space and maybe they're not riding. And the people in the barn are like, what are you doing with your horse? How come you're not riding your horse? How come you're not touching your. What's wrong with you? And a lot of folks who are trying to wake up in the equestrian world and trying to live in a less domesticated, less oppressive fashion with themselves and their horses get a lot of pushback from their colleagues and friends at the barn or wherever.

Warwick Schiller Host (90:14)

Yeah, I hear it, I hear it a lot that people are saying, well, why aren't you riding him yet? You know, and sometimes it's. Sometimes it's family members and sometimes it's. And a lot of times it's. It's people at the barn like, well, why aren't you writing me? You should do this, you should do.

Kelly Wendorf (90:28)

That, you should, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, a lot of it's well meaning, but it's still tribal shaming. And so to recognize it for what it is, because it'll. It, It's a place where people can sabotage themselves and go, oh, geez, you know, maybe I am being weird and I shouldn't be doing this, or it's a place where we can just feel a little bit under attack and not understand why, but once you kind of see it at work, you understand. Oh, yeah, yeah. They're just activated because I'm, I'm an outlier.

Warwick Schiller Host (91:01)

Yeah, that's. It's been really interesting that that video that went viral. The, the. The. What would be the word I'm looking for? Vehement. You know, like people are just triggered by the fact that it's almost like people are triggered by. And it's not just that video by giving a horse a choice.

Kelly Wendorf (91:30)

Yes.

Warwick Schiller Host (91:32)

It really, really grates on some people because. And they justify it by saying, you know, they're going to run roughshod over you or they're going to do this, they're going to do that, they're going to. Going to whatever. And I, I've actually found, you know, I explain this a lot. I found that it actually works even better if you're trying to achieve a certain thing with a horse. Giving them choice gets. Gets you there in a better way. I'm not necessarily. It's a faster way, but for some people, it's like giving them a choice is not. It's not ever going to work. And yeah, just really, really affects them.

Kelly Wendorf (92:11)

People are very afraid of freedom and don't understand that freedom is where the truer yeses are. Right? And, you know, you look at this is, you know, one of your sort of, you know, basic moments in a barn where you're with a horse and you'll see someone with their horse and the horse suddenly gets spooked at something and, and the person will go, you know, what's wrong with you? You know, get back here. Why are you being so stupid? Come on, you know, you've already seen that bucket. What the hell? That's one way or the other way is as you teach, you know, like, oh, well, that's interesting. Let's look at it together. And validating, honoring the horse's experience, joining with that horse, the being seen, feeling felt, getting. Getting gotten, you know, being heard. And when you enter that unshaming space with the horse, you're right, you get there better. And I remember when I trained with Frederic Pinon a long, long time ago, and, and he was talking to somebody about a horse having a choice about a saddle being put on him, and he said, you know, I could come out one day and I might put the saddle on the horse, and the horse will. Will indicate that this is not okay for them, and I will take the saddle off and maybe I might even, you know, put them away. And sure enough, you know, everyone's freaked out. Like, don't. Aren't you teaching the horse that it's okay to, you know, to protest? And aren't you rewarding the horse for protesting? He goes, no, I'm teaching the horse that. I'm listening.

Warwick Schiller Host (94:01)

Yeah, because it. I found a lot of times they don't say no because they don't want the thing. They say no to. See what you're going to do. Right.

Kelly Wendorf (94:15)

Who are you? Who are you? Who is this person? Are they honorable? Are they shameful? Because remember, shame. Shame is domestication. Are they going to limit me or partner with me? I mean, you're right, Warwick. And you Know, we do it with our kids, we do it with our partners. Who is it, Ren Hurst, who defined domestication as, you know, coercion in order to render one more useful to me.

Warwick Schiller Host (94:56)

Coercion or domestication is coercion in order to render one more useful to me. You know, it's interesting. I've heard. I've heard it said that cats are not true domesticates. Cats are what's termed manipulative captives because you can't really tell the cat what to do, you know, tell the dog what to do. You can't tell the cat what to do. It's almost. If you think about cats, it's almost like they have domesticated us. What was the term again? They. What? They.

Kelly Wendorf (95:33)

What?

Warwick Schiller Host (95:33)

That last sentence, you. That. That last description of domestic, of domestication.

Kelly Wendorf (95:40)

That one. And I may not be quoting it exactly, but domestication is the rendering. Rendering of one using coercion to render one useful to us.

Warwick Schiller Host (95:49)

I think that's what cats do to us, right?

Kelly Wendorf (95:52)

And I love cats for that reason. I mean, I love that they, you know, that they kind of force us to get off our high horse a little bit. But, you know, like, you think about a parent who will manipulate, groom, coerce, bully, cajole a child to get better grades so that the parent feels better about themselves. That. That's domestication. That's use. That's using. That's not love. It's interesting. This is the first time we say the word love in this whole podcast, but this is really what we're aiming towards, is what real love is. This isn't a feeling, you know, I really love you work.

Warwick Schiller Host (96:40)

It's.

Kelly Wendorf (96:41)

How do I. How am I an ally to your truest, most authentic self? And what can I do to be an ally to that truest, most authentic self? To me, that's love. Not using you.

Warwick Schiller Host (97:01)

It kind of reminds me a little bit of a. As a meme I took a picture of on social media here a while ago and I've been reading it out at clinics and it said, do not punish the behavior you want to see. Then it says, it seems pretty obvious when you put it like that, right? But how many families, when an introverted child makes an effort to socialise, they snarkily say, sir, you decided to join us. Or when someone does something they've had trouble doing and the parents say, why can't you do that all the time? Or any sentence containing the word finally, if someone makes a step, a small step in the direction you want to encourage, encourage it. Because I swear to fucking God, there is nothing more soul sucking, more motivation crushing than struggling to succeed in finding out that success and failure, Failure are both punished.

Kelly Wendorf (98:00)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller Host (98:01)

And I read it at, at, I read it at clinics when someone's trying to teach the horse something and the horse tries the right thing, but it's only one step, not five steps or it's only one inch, it's not five inches, it's not enough. And I say you're basically, you know, you're punishing the thing that you want right there. But that's one of the reasons I read it out is so that they think about their interaction with their horse better. But every time I read that out, you see, everybody kind of goes silent and their eyes roll back in their head and you can say, either processing, I do that with my kids, or that's what was done to me as a kid.

Kelly Wendorf (98:49)

Yeah, yeah. And really important not to shame ourselves that we do it. That just perpetuates the cycle. It's not our fault. That doesn't mean we aren't invited to be accountable now that we start to see the difference. But what else were we supposed to do? We are raised in an oppressive soup. And of course, you know, of course we're going to do this to our kids and our beloveds and our friends and our dogs and our cats and our horses. Of course we're going to. And so I think the biggest deterrent to waking up to this is the shame. We then put on top of the wake up where we go, oh, oh, holy shit, look what I've been doing. Okay. It's okay.

Warwick Schiller Host (99:49)

Yeah, that's where. What else? That's where it comes back to the, like the Renee Brown guilt versus shame thing. You know, guilt, you know, focus on behavior versus shame, focus on self guilt. You can go, well, I've been doing that incorrectly. I can change that. Whereas shame is right. I'm a screw up.

Kelly Wendorf (100:10)

That's right. And I would say it's the reason why so many people don't change and grow is there's a, like, shame ceiling.

Warwick Schiller Host (100:22)

Right.

Kelly Wendorf (100:27)

So the best thing we can do is just be unshaming witnesses for, for ourselves, but also each other. And when we catch each other as friends kind of having a dig at ourselves, like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Like, of course you felt that way. Of course that was shitty. Of course that, you know that what that person did felt terrible. Of course your kids are driving you nuts. Like.

Warwick Schiller Host (100:53)

Yeah, it kind of reminds me I did a master class in Australia a few years ago. Where I had different problem. Horses came along for the day. And one girl, her horse, she's always land skiing behind this horse. She sent me a video of her. She catches the horse and it just drags her down the road and she's skiing and, you know, the horse is always pulling away from her and trying to get away from her. And so anyways, she brings the horse in to the arena and I. I don't do a whole lot, but the horse ends up starting to want to hang with me. And in the end, I think I'm sitting on the ground and the horse is standing beside me with his head in my lap, sort of a thing or whatever. And it was the last horse of the day and I kind of stood up and I get. I forget what her name was, but I said, you can come and get your horse if you like. And she walked up to me and she said, see, I knew it was me. And I. I said to her, it's not you. You are perfect. I said, how You've. The interactions you've been having with your horse have been making your horse act that way, but the problem is not you. The problem is your. The interactions you've had with your horse, the stories you've had in your head about your horse, all those sorts of things, but that's not you. That's separate from you. You're divine, you're. And she kind of looked at me like, oh, my goodness, you know, that she. Because she saw the difference in the horse from her to me. But then she immediately went into that shame thing like, it's. It's me. And I had to tell her, it's not you. You're great. It's just the interactions you've been having with your horse and the energy you've been bringing to those interactions and the thoughts you've been bringing to those interactions are what's causing the problem. And if you can change those, then you won't have a problem, but you yourself are not the problem. And I made sure I talked on the microphone about that, too, because it's just so. As we're talking about here, it's just so prevalent that that's. We go straight to that.

Kelly Wendorf (103:04)

Yeah. And, you know, I don't know about you, Warwick, but I remember so many clinic scenarios where I was shamed. Right. As a person.

Warwick Schiller Host (103:13)

Oh, my goodness. It's.

Kelly Wendorf (103:14)

It's just. There's so much toxicity in the clinic world and it just reinforces. Oh, it's just. And so what I appreciate, appreciate about your work and and the work of Elsa Sinclair, who I love and is the, the, the, the invitation to be liberated from a very, very false, dark and violent narrative that, you know, is long overdue to be erased on this planet. Right. It doesn't serve anybody or any animal or any child or any tree. And so it's such important work. Yeah, it's really important. I think, honestly, I think it's the most important work. I think it's sacred. I think it's holy. You know, it's so much deeper than people even realize. And maybe that's great because you're able to kind of fly under the radar a little bit.

Warwick Schiller Host (104:29)

Yes, it's the, it's the rewilding you were talking about before.

Kelly Wendorf (104:35)

Yeah. Yep.

Warwick Schiller Host (104:38)

And I've been on about this for such a long time now, but the, you know, science is discovering it, but the practices of our ancestors, pre, you know, pre agricultural revolution, so 6, 10,000 years ago, whatever, I think they are what's going to take us forward. And that's the great thing. I think, you know, for me, the horses have been the ones to kind of lead me in that direction. And then, you know, meeting people like you and like reading your book book, and you bring the, the horse wisdom and the indigenous earth wisdom together to where it's like, oh, these, these things aren't separate. These things are this. Different versions of the same thing. And then, you know, like having, say, Emily K's daughter on the podcast and then having Rupert Isaacs from the podcast. Emily comes from the, you know, collective consciousness of horses and what they're here to do thing. And, and Rupert's helped me with the, the hunter gatherer stuff. And it's like, oh, it's all the same stuff. So you mentioned the Dr. Mario Martinez thing. So shame was honor, abandonment. Let's talk a little bit about the abandonment. Abandonment wound. Because honor. Because I had the term honor kind of wrong, I didn't realize it was honoring the shame. So tell me about this commitment in relation to abandonment wounds. Who's the commitment come from?

Kelly Wendorf (106:32)

Right? Or honoring who you are. Right. In any given moment, you know, and if that, if that giving moment is that there's a shameful experience, you're still going to honor it. So abandonment, the antidote being commitment. Well, again, these are felt sense antidotes. So when we are abandoned by our parents, our friends, our community, or we abandon ourselves, you know, it's this move away from, leave isolated, tear away from. If I abandon myself, I'm splitting from who I am and what's important to me and taking my energies and my actions away from. From that. And so you know why he chose commitment. But it makes sense to me, me, because it's like, no, we're. I'm committed to you no matter what you do. I'm committed to being your mother. I'm committed to being your friend. I'm committed to this task, you know, instead of abandoning this task. So again, it's a. What's the felt sense of commitment?

Warwick Schiller Host (107:58)

So somewhere during there I joined some dots and you're talking about abandonment from self. And I'm like, well, that comes from shame, doesn't it?

Kelly Wendorf (108:10)

Yeah.

Warwick Schiller Host (108:12)

You know, you're talking in that abandonment piece. You're talking about when you've abandoned your true self. And that's part of this waking up from this trance of domestication. So we've all, we've basically all been taught to abandon ourselves to some degree.

Kelly Wendorf (108:29)

Wouldn'T you say, in order to belong. Right? Yeah. Yes, we have. I mean, you know, I mean, I sort of, as I really immerse myself more and more in this subject and in my own reclamation, it's sort of like, where is it not where, where is this stuff not showing up almost everywhere and anywhere? So, you know, we find it when we, when, when we say yes, but we mean to say no or abandon ourselves when we make ourselves go places and do things that we don't want to do, we abandon ourselves. You know, this, this country is abandoning huge populations of people. So it's just sort of everywhere.

Warwick Schiller Host (109:29)

And then the third one was betrayal. And the antidote to that, loyalty, accountability. And I was thinking these are from other people, but now I'm probably thinking these are more self like self betrayal.

Kelly Wendorf (109:44)

I think it's both, you know, if we're, if we're a child in our, in our. And we're betrayed by our father, right? So like that moment that my father beat me so senselessly about the kittens, what it was just a fundamental betrayal. You know, a father whose job is to keep his child safe, you know, completely turns on her and physically does this. This is a betrayal beyond. You know, it's just a massive betrayal. So then I learned through that archetypal wound to betray myself, right? To beat myself up a lot. I probably do a much better job of it than he ever did. So when I become loyal to myself or I use the felt sense of loyalty as an antidote to that imprint that happened with my father, then I kind of allow my nervous system to feel an opportunity of a different experience. And so, you know, I, as a practice, I'm loyal to my values. I'm loyal to my well being. I'm loyal to my.

Warwick Schiller Host (111:09)

My.

Kelly Wendorf (111:11)

My awkwardness. Like all, all of what makes me me. I'm loyal to it above all else. Or at least I aspire to be because, you know, for 40 years I betrayed myself again and again and again.

Warwick Schiller Host (111:25)

And if you think about that, who hasn't?

Kelly Wendorf (111:28)

That's right, that's right.

Warwick Schiller Host (111:31)

And that's this thing about this waking up from this trance of domestication is. I said, who hasn't? And I'd say a lot of people don't even know they've betrayed themselves. That's, that's the, for me, that's been the, you know, this journey of understanding that I'm not who I was conditioned to be. And I didn't even know I was getting conditioned to be that certain person. And, and yeah, who am I without all that, that societal and cultural conditioning underneath there? And it's. Yeah, that's. I think that's the journey isn't is the journey.

Kelly Wendorf (112:17)

It is the journey. And, and it's just like, is it. And there is no destination. It's just like ever deepening layers of like, oh, wow, here's another place where I have, you know, undermined myself. Oh, here's where like I trade betraying myself in order to belong to this particular group of people or here's where I set it up that when I'm, you know, betraying myself as part of how I get rewarded at work. Right. So it just starts to be again, if you can look at it through an unshaming lens, it's an opportunity to just continue to open that door to your liberation. And what you, what you begin to find in my experience is that there's just like a whole pile of stuff I don't even think about anymore. You know, I don't. It doesn't take up space in my mind and in my heart and, and there's a whole like blanket of weight that's off my shoulders. And also another byproduct is I am much more. I'm a better space for others to be free too. So their freedom doesn't threaten me. Their opinions don't threaten me. They get to be themselves too, because I get to be myself. And so it's. And that's a beautiful byproduct.

Warwick Schiller Host (113:54)

Wow, that's a lot. I'm still, I'm still going back to the first thing you said. Waking up from this trance of domestication. Okay, so Tell me, what are your thoughts on. Let's say we could have a clap of thunder and suddenly everybody has waking up from this transit of domestication. What does the world look like?

Kelly Wendorf (114:23)

I think there's a lot more accountability in the world because people don't equate their accountability and responsibility with shame. So I think we. You know, honestly, I feel like it. That the world would be just as complicated, but it would be rich complicated. Instead of kind of miring us down and things feeling heavier and heavier, the complexity would just feel richer and richer. I think we would be surprised to learn that our children flourish, our animals still like us and want to be with us, and that we feel a lot more love than we thought we would when we felt like we had to control it all to make it happen. And so I think we would feel more love, more spaciousness, less stress, more creativity, more joy. And there it wouldn't be like. It wouldn't be sort of like this idea of nirvana, because there'd still be hard things to do that's to be, mountains to climb and problems to solve and climate change to deal with and all of that stuff. But we would not be so weighted down by this massive weighted blanket that doesn't belong to us. That's what I think would happen.

Warwick Schiller Host (116:07)

Sounds like a promising future.

Kelly Wendorf (116:11)

It does.

Warwick Schiller Host (116:13)

Okay. Do you have anything else you would like to add about shame?

Kelly Wendorf (116:25)

No. I think we've pretty much squeezed all the juice out of this lemon that we possibly could.

Warwick Schiller Host (116:33)

Very cool. Well, I might mention those books you mentioned, just because a lot of times I'll have someone email me. Go. Hey, halfway through that podcast, you guys mentioned a book, but now I'm not sure where it is. This is at the very end of the podcast, so you can scroll back here and find it. But Dr. Mario Martinez, the Unshaming Way was one of them. The one I mentioned was by John Bradshaw, which is called Shame Healing the Shame that Binds you. That's the one I referenced where I thought I discovered the. The Fountain of Man flu. I love the origins of man flu and how it came about. That was one of. But that was one of those moments. I'm like, holy cow. I think that's where man flu comes in. Like, I know I discovered something.

Kelly Wendorf (117:18)

I totally agree with you. I think you're totally onto something. Ishmael, Right? That was the other book by Daniel Quinn.

Warwick Schiller Host (117:24)

Oh, yeah.

Kelly Wendorf (117:25)

A must read.

Warwick Schiller Host (117:25)

And then I'm currently reading the Last Shaman by William White Cloud, and it is. Have you ever read Shantaram? Yes, it's it's the wisdom is kind of like the, the, the, the wise elder, that wise guy in, In Shantram. It's kind of like turn to stare at the wall for a bit.

Kelly Wendorf (117:51)

Yeah. Beautiful. And one last book is book Ren Hurst's book the Wisdom of Wildness. I will give that a plug. And then of course, flying lead change. Right.

Warwick Schiller Host (118:08)

Yes.

Kelly Wendorf (118:10)

I'm going to unshame myself by shamelessly promoting my book. Warwick, you know what too, I would love to give a gift to your listeners. Am I allowed to do that?

Warwick Schiller Host (118:21)

Yeah, sure, I'd love to.

Kelly Wendorf (118:24)

Well, it's a course I'm doing next year. It's not, it probably won't be until the end of September next year. But this gives people plenty of time to plan. And it's a four hour course. It's two hours on one Saturday and two hours on the next Saturday. And it's called how to Lead a Transformative Life. And Warkle, put in the show notes and if you use the code Equus Equus KW100, you will receive that course for free. And it's worth $450.

Warwick Schiller Host (119:01)

Oh, it's worth more than that. That's just what you charge.

Kelly Wendorf (119:05)

And so sorry, it's Equus One 100kW and we'll put that in the show notes too. But yeah, just as a gift to everyone who's your wonderful readers. Yeah, our listeners. Thank you.

Warwick Schiller Host (119:23)

Thank you so much. Yeah. And don't forget Kelly's. Kelly's book, Flying Lee Change. It's not about Flying Lee Changes as in horses, but it's not a bit like. It's a bit like the podcast. It's not about horses. It is about horses. But. But it's not about horses.

Kelly Wendorf (119:39)

That's right.

Warwick Schiller Host (119:43)

Yeah, I can't. It's highly recommended. I love that book actually. Like I said, I quote it a lot. We'll have retreats here and I'll have it. I'll have a little sticky note on the right page and I want to pull that thing out and say in Kelly Wendorf's book, the flying Lead Change, she said, and then people's eyeballs roll back in the head and they kind of stare at the sky for a minute and. Yeah.

Kelly Wendorf (120:07)

Thanks, Warrick.

Warwick Schiller Host (120:09)

Okay. Kelly Waltz, thank you so much for joining me and for you guys at home, thanks for joining us and we'll catch you on the next episode of the Journey on podcast.

Kelly Wendorf (120:17)

Nice to be with your family.

Warwick Schiller Intro/Outro (120:22)

Thanks for being a part of the Journey On Podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warwick has over 850 full length training videos on his online video library@videos.warickschiller.com Be sure to follow Warrick on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram to see his latest training advice and insights.