The Journey On Podcast with Warwick Schiller
Episode: Revisited: Kelly Wendorf on Shame
Release Date: October 10, 2025
Guest: Kelly Wendorf (Founding CEO of EQUUS, author, coach, equine facilitator)

Episode Overview

In this impactful episode, Warwick Schiller welcomes returning guest Kelly Wendorf for an in-depth exploration of shame—its roots, effects, and the journey of "unshaming." Drawing from personal experience, cultural perspectives, psychology, and their shared background in horsemanship, Warwick and Kelly examine the ways shame shapes our lives, relationships, and even how we interact with horses. The conversation’s aim is to humanize, demystify, and destigmatize shame while offering practical insight into emancipation from shame’s pervasive hold.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Origin and Universal Experience of Shame

• Personal Beginnings: Kelly recounts her early experiences of shame growing up, noting how well-meaning efforts at socialization and domestication ("making us fit in") were inherently laced with diminishment and conditional belonging. Bullying and societal pressure reinforced the internalization of shame.
  “Parenting was all about… making us fit in as humans so that we’re socialized to stay within the fray and be a human that everybody can accept. … The mycelium network of domestication is shame.” — Kelly (04:37)

• Shame vs. Belonging & Safety: Warwick and Kelly identify the human drive for safety and belonging as the root reason shame exerts such influence.
  “We need to belong because we are a social species.... To be separated from the group, we’re hardwired to think that means death.”— Warwick (10:50)

• Cultural Perspective: Drawing from time spent in Aboriginal Australian communities (with Uncle Bob) and referencing the Dalai Lama, Kelly underscores how shame is not a universal expression, but a product of “modern” society’s rigid rules for belonging.
  “There was no, ‘Oh, you talk too loud or you’re too fat or too skinny.’ … Differences and uniqueness and diversity… were just part of the deal.” — Kelly (12:19)

Defining and Understanding Shame

• Shame vs. Guilt vs. Embarrassment:

  • Guilt: "I did something I regret."
  • Shame: "I am unworthy for having done that."
  • Embarrassment: Similar to guilt in being momentary; shame is deeper and tied to self-worth.
    (22:08)

  “Brené Brown’s distinction: Guilt is a focus on behavior, shame is a focus on self. ‘I did something stupid’ vs. ‘I am stupid.’” — Warwick (23:01)

• Shame as a Trance and Social Control: Kelly frames shame as a “trance” or pervasive, invisible force—psychological, emotional, spiritual, and somatic—that keeps us “small,” limiting authenticity and enforcing social compliance.
  “It’s a sense of I’m not quite enough, I need to do more. … It forces us to try and mitigate these feelings of not enoughness.” — Kelly (09:38)

Historical & Systemic Roots: Domestication, Colonization, and Power Over

• Historical Development: Approximately 6,000 years ago, environmental crises contributed to a rupture from nature, fostering collective trauma and the rise of “domestication” and “power over” paradigms.
  “Shame is the means by which we become domesticated... We have two inheritances… wildness and domestication.” — Kelly (16:12)

• Domestication = Loss of Wholeness: To be “undomesticated” means to reclaim authenticity, not chaos.
  (16:12-18:00)

The Mechanisms of Shame: The Shaming Witness

• Authority + Witness = Shame: It's not just the act (e.g., teacher criticism), but the presence (and silence) of witnesses that lodges shame deeply.
  “The shame comes in when the assault happens and you have shaming witnesses—others who see it and do nothing.” — Kelly (24:34)

• Example: Warwick reflects on growing up internalizing subtle parental cues—a hyper-vigilance that helped with horsemanship but originated in scanning for shame signals.
  (27:27)

• Transference to Animals: Our unresolved shame and need for control often get projected onto animals, notably horses and dogs—either through overt correction or subtle gestures.
  “If I'm going to fight for my own emancipation, I have to also give emancipation to others... our journey as horse people too, as we look into attuned horsemanship and true liberty work.” — Kelly (34:10)

The Path of "Unshaming"

• Recognize Internalized Dialogue:
  “Why am I still working on this? Why am I not happier?” (37:30)

• Resources & Frameworks:

  • David Bedrick (The Unshaming Way) emphasizes the sequence of assault + silent witnesses = shame imprint.
    • Example: A child publicly shamed for being “tone deaf” suffers not only due to teacher’s action, but the passive reaction of classmates.
      (24:34)
  • Mario Martinez (The Mind-Body Code): Identifies three core wounds—shame, abandonment, betrayal—each with a somatic antidote (honor, commitment, loyalty).
    (44:32)
  • John Bradshaw (Healing the Shame That Binds You): Explores the phenomenon of “man flu” as a permissible outlet for male vulnerability, illustrating how shame shaped even physical expressions.
    (40:10)

• Embodied Practice:

  • Honor is experienced as a physical, somatic state (chest/torso), not just a mindset.
    “Shame disembodies us... Part of the journey back to unshaming is embodiment.” — Kelly (51:09)

  • Applying somatic antidotes shifts dynamics with self and horses. In one story, recentering a group of indigenous health workers in “honor” instantly shifted the horses’ recognition of their presence.
    (46:27–52:48)

Unshaming Ourselves and Each Other

• Befriending the Parts We Dislike: Rather than banishing or “fixing” the parts of us we judge or pathologize, Kelly advocates for turning towards and honoring them as valuable parts of our whole self.
  “I don’t have to heal my inner Grinch… I just… honor it and listen to it.” — Kelly (59:34)

• Hazards of Social Media & Toxic Positivity: Online spaces often amplify shaming culture (tribal shaming, misunderstanding), and even well-meaning comments or “spiritual bypassing” can erase/shame lived experience.
  (71:33)

• Tribal Shaming & Outliers: As people start to “undomesticate” themselves, they frequently face “tribal shaming”—ostracism or ridicule from those who are still in the trance. This is especially apparent in horsemanship communities when someone pursues less coercive, more consent-based approaches with horses.
  “Those that have not woken up to shame… will tribally shame.” — Kelly (84:02)

The Horsemanship Connection

• Horses as Mirrors: Both Warwick and Kelly link their journeys with horses to the process of unshaming—moving away from “power over” training methods toward authentic partnership and mutual honoring of boundaries.
• Consent and Triggering Others: Allowing horses agency and choice (consent) is deeply triggering in conventional circles because it highlights unexamined beliefs and triggers collective and personal experiences of oppression. “People are very afraid of freedom and don't understand that freedom is where the truer yeses are.” — Kelly (92:11)

On the Possibility of a Shame-Free World

• What Would Change?:
  • More accountability, less equating responsibility with shame
  • Deeper relationships (with self, others, animals)
  • Greater creativity, play, and love; less control and oppression
  • The world would still be rich and complex—but not heavy “We would not be so weighted down by this massive weighted blanket that doesn’t belong to us.” — Kelly (114:23)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the pervasiveness of shame:
  “The topic of shame is a shared experience. … It’s part of the soup that we swim in.” — Kelly (03:48)

• On the difference between cultures with and without shame:
  “There was something very fresh and different around being with Uncle Bob… There was just all this diverse stuff going on, but there was no part you’re not going, ‘Oh, I celebrate all this diversity in the garden.’” — Kelly (13:35)

• On tribal shaming and stepping out as an outlier: “As we start to wake up and undomesticate ourselves and unshame ourselves, we have to be aware that folks will try to drag us back in… because it's dangerous for the tribe if someone ventures beyond the fray.” — Kelly (86:00)

• On unshaming as sacred work:
  “It’s the most important work. I think it’s sacred. I think it’s holy.” — Kelly (103:13)

• On real love: “To me, that’s love. Not using you. … How am I an ally to your truest, most authentic self?” — Kelly (96:41)

Important Resources (Books Mentioned)

• The Unshaming Way (David Bedrick) [24:34]
• The Mind-Body Code (Dr. Mario Martinez) [44:32]
• Healing the Shame That Binds You (John Bradshaw) [40:10]
• Ishmael (Daniel Quinn) [57:58]
• The Last Shaman (William Whitecloud) [58:00]
• The Wisdom of Wildness (Ren Hurst)
• Flying Lead Change (Kelly Wendorf)

Actionable Takeaways

• Recognize shame's mechanisms: Look for internal shame talk, over-functioning, and retreat from wholeness.
• Practice unshaming: Honor even the “shameful” or disowned parts of yourself; listen for what they have to teach.
• Embodiment: Move from thinking to feeling; experience the antidotes (honor, commitment, loyalty) as bodily sensations.
• Hold space: Be an “unshaming witness” for yourself and for others. Interrupt shaming cycles in conversations and relationships.
• With horses and others: Shift from coercion to partnership. Consent and choice are both healing and effective.
• Anticipate tribal shaming: Recognize pushback as a sign of progress, not a reason to retreat.

Timestamps of Important Segments

• 04:37 — Kelly’s origin story with shame & domestication
• 10:44 — Root of shame: Belonging and safety
• 13:35 — Non-shame cultures: Uncle Bob, the Dalai Lama
• 22:08 — Distinctions: shame vs. guilt vs. embarrassment
• 24:34 — Introduction to “The Shaming Witness” concept
• 44:32 — Archetypal wounds & somatic antidotes (Mario Martinez)
• 46:27 — Case study: Honor and embodied healing with horses
• 71:33 — Social media, toxic positivity, and the minefield of shaming online
• 84:02 — Tribal shaming: Outliers, equestrian worlds, and liberation
• 92:11 — Freedom, choice, and agency with horses
• 103:13 — The sacredness of unshaming work
• 114:23 — Envisioning a shame-free world

Memorable/Funny Moments

• The "man flu" revelation (41:35): Warwick traces "man flu" to childhood shame imprints after hearing John Bradshaw’s book.
• Balloon graphics randomly appearing as “affirmations” when Kelly says something profound (44:28, 82:14).
• Warwick’s viral reel about consent with horses—and not replying to online comments, observing the “tribal shaming” responses in real time (76:33).

Offers from the Episode

• Free Course from Kelly Wendorf:
  "How to Lead a Transformative Life" (4 hr course).
  Use code: EquusKW100 for free access ($450 value).

Episode Tone

Warm, open, and deeply reflective; both hosts share personal vulnerability, invite stories, sometimes laugh, and regularly circle back to practical wisdom. The conversation is infused with humility, encouragement, and a spirit of inclusion.

“Anything that makes you feel less than whole and alive and complete is shame. So if you scan your environment… these are forms of internalized shame. Once you start to see that, you can start on the journey of unshaming.” — Kelly (36:34)

Final Note

This episode is an invitation to start noticing how shame invisibly shapes our lives and relationships, and how we might move toward gentler, freer ways of being—for ourselves, our communities, and our horses. The conversation models the ongoing journey of liberation from the “trance of domestication,” advocating for compassionate self-inquiry, embodied practice, and shared accountability.