Terry Kozak

Summary

The Journey On Podcast with Warwick Schiller
Episode: Terry Kozak (June 12, 2026)

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Overview

In this powerful episode, Warwick Schiller sits down with Terry Kozak, an equine specialist running "You Are Herd" in Asheville, North Carolina. With decades of experience in the healing and mental health space—including work in foster care, residential treatment, and equine-assisted learning—Terry shares her journey of personal transformation, the lessons learned from horses and trauma survivors, and the harrowing story of surviving a murder attempt in 2024. Blending vulnerability, humor, and professional wisdom, Terry’s story is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit and the healing power of connection with both horses and people.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Terry’s Current Work: "You Are Herd"

• Role: Runs an equine learning and equine therapy practice; partners with therapists and organizations to serve trauma survivors, veterans, and first responders.
• Philosophy: "I just put people with horses and we see what happens." (02:34)
• Clients: Mix of private clients, as well as grant-funded work via Heart of Horse Sense for trauma populations.
• Approach: Strong focus on presence, non-directiveness, and allowing clients’ needs to emerge in partnership with horses.

2. Mental Health Work with Youth & Trauma

• Background: Over a decade running a foster care agency and 14 years leading the equine program at a treatment center for teenage girls.
• Populations served: Foster youth, kids with addictions, traumatic backgrounds, attachment challenges.
• Horse-Human Mirroring:
  • "They would always pick the horse that was most like them." (08:06)
  • Horses and ‘untouchable’ kids—healing through mutual recognition and safe experimentation with connection.

3. Personal Backstory & Formative Experiences

• Nebraska roots & sociology degree: Driven by a lonely childhood and desire to understand mental health dynamics.
• "My mother has a lot of mental health problems…my childhood was really lonely…so I think I wanted to understand." (10:35)
• Challenging early jobs:
  • Detention center, special schools, in-home mental health support.
  • Noted cultural challenges navigating Appalachian communities (20:00–22:00).

4. Marathon as Metaphor for Endurance & Self-Discovery

• Ran her first marathon in freezing conditions: “I thought I was going to die. There were lots of people that left because there was hypothermia. It was terrible.” (23:28)
• Motivation: Marking turning 40, inspired by her father’s illness.
• Reflection:
  • "I want to be tough...but I don't know if I ever really believe that I am." (29:37)
  • Endurance events as a way to rewrite self-concept, but the process of self-acceptance is ongoing.

5. Equine-Assisted Healing: Not Just for Youth

• With Foster & Affluent Kids:
  • Human struggles are universal across socioeconomic lines.
  • Noted that horses can cut through surface behaviors and get to truth: "Horses can tell the truth." (47:56)
  • Profound changes can emerge from even the most resistant cases (e.g., the untouchable horse story, 45:01).

6. Trauma and Survival: The 2024 Attack

• Description of Incident:
  • Ex-partner, following months of boundary-setting and no-contact, ambushes and attacks Terry in a grocery store parking lot.
  • "He jumps in my car and sticks a knife in my leg… took the knife out of my leg and stuck it in my chest." (54:01)
  • Fought back despite overwhelming odds, escaped, ran for safety.
• Aftermath & Processing:
  • Felt “like a prey animal being hunted.” (59:25)
  • Later learned of bystanders stepping in: “I didn't think anybody helped me...then I found out…six people lined the front of the store…” (59:25–61:56)
  • Ongoing trauma responses: nightmares, panic, altered sense of safety.
  • “I can't really go to a grocery store anymore.” (63:15)
• Lessons & Self-Realization:
  • “I just realized how strong I am, and… I'm still alive. Hopefully I do something really good with being alive.” (62:00)
  • "It's not exactly the one you want to sign up for, to figure out how strong you are." (62:52)

7. Healing, Horses, and Ongoing Growth

• Somatic Restoration:
  • Uses mindfulness and time with horses for grounding and regulation.
  • "One of my favorite things to do is just lay down in the pasture...being in their presence really helps." (67:36)
• Trauma Theory & Recovery:
  • Warwick references Peter Levine and Gabor Maté: importance of completing fight/flight response, trauma living in the body.
  • Terry acknowledges: “I had a therapist tell me...at least like, you got to run...that you weren't trapped...probably gonna be good for your healing.” (80:48)
  • Equine lessons: Self-trust, letting go of control, and gradual transformation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the work with traumatized youth:
  • "But she was special. She taught me all about groundwork. I saw her just… the horses respected her. They wanted to be with her. She just…everything was different." (34:07)
• On marathon running and hardship:
  • "I think when you don't have a very good childhood and those early attachments aren't safe…it really affects us in ways that almost don't seem related." (30:32)
• On trauma and survival:
  • "When I was running, I got plantar fasciitis in my foot, and so I had to do ice baths for my foot. And I hated it...now I just think about, like, just having my foot in an ice bath was like…in so much pain." (26:10)
  • “I always thought I was like a scared freeze person, but...that adrenaline, I guess, takes over.” (59:25)
  • "It's like a prey animal being hunted." (59:25)
• On post-traumatic growth:
  • “Now maybe I'm trying to start believing it. I'm trying…that's been a lot of my work...and now I'm like, well, I'm pretty strong, actually, and people care and I make a difference and I have a purpose.” (72:32)
• Core message:
  • “You got this. We’re more capable than we think, stronger than we think…everything is going to change…just wait…you can do it.” (89:45)
• On vulnerability and common humanity:
  • "I just want people to be truthful, to be honest. That's really important to me." (91:11)
  • "That same stuff's going inside their head. We have a lot in common." (95:01-95:54)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Terry’s Current Practice & Work with Trauma (02:15–05:43)
• Treating Traumatized Youth, Human-Horse Mirroring (06:45–08:53)
• Growing Up & Early Influences (08:53–13:59)
• Endurance, Marathon as Self-Discovery (23:00–30:21)
• Profound Changes in At-Risk Youth—Untouchable Horses (41:39–45:01)
• Socioeconomic Parity of Trauma (47:33–48:40)
• Detailed Account of Surviving the Murder Attempt (51:55–61:56)
• Long-Term Impact, Healing, and Embodied Trauma (63:15–83:09)
• Reflections on Leadership, Following, and Personal Change (100:12–104:41)
• Messages of Resilience & Closing Wisdom (89:45–91:51)

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Additional Highlights

• Favorite books: Lead With Your Heart (Allan J. Hamilton), Zen Mind, Zen Horse, and The Myth of Normal (Gabor Maté).
• On fear: "It's my closest friend, my worst enemy, and my biggest motivator." (97:23)
• Website: www.youareherd.com

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Tone & Language

This episode embodies honest vulnerability, hope, and the hard-earned wisdom that emerges from surviving real trauma. Terry’s language is direct, warm, and grounded, frequently circling back to humor and relatability. Warwick maintains an empathic, reflective tone, creating a conversation that is both challenging and uplifting.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking to understand the intersection of trauma, equine-assisted healing, and the human search for meaning and connection.

Transcript

[A]

Journey on the magic lies within the trails we ride.

[B]

You're listening to the Journey on podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warrick is a horseman trainer, international clinician and author who helps empower horse people from all over the world with the skills, knowledge and mindsets needed to create trusting partnerships with their horses. Warrick offers a free seven day trial to his comprehensive online video library that includes hundreds of full length training videos and several home Study [e-mail]

[C]

G' day everyone. Welcome back to the Journey On Podcast. I'm your host, Warwick Schiller and my special guest this week is a lady named Terry Kozak. So Terry runs an equine learning and equine therapy business in Asheville, North Carolina. With a degree in sociology, she spent four years running a treatment center for teenage Girls and another 10 years leading a foster care placement agency. So she's been in the healing and mental health space for a long time. After surviving a murder attempt in 2024, Terri had to call on all of her training and experience helping others to now help herself. So in this episode, Terrie shares her journey in the learning spaces and then also shares the harrowing story of the the murder attempt and how much that changed not only her life, but her very perception of herself. So pretty heady stuff. So grateful for Terry to for joining us and sharing her story. I hope you guys enjoy this episode as much as I did recording Terry Kozak, welcome to the Journey on podcast.

[A]

Thank you. It's an honor to be here.

[C]

Hey, glad to have you here. I'm excited to hear your story and what led you to do, you know, the amazing work that you currently doing. So why don't we start out, why don't you tell our listeners what it is you're actually doing and want to unravel how you got there.

[A]

Well, what I'm doing now is I have a small farm here in western North Carolina and I have two horses. Currently. My business is called you are herd H E R D. You are heard.

[C]

I like that.

[A]

And basically I just put people with horses and we see what happens. So I don't really have a plan. I don't have anything I think is going to happen or want to happen. It's just people show up and sometimes they have something they want to work on or look at or sometimes they might think they just want to touch a horse. I'm not a therapist. I am an equine specialist is what I guess they call us. So a lot of times I partner with therapists and they bring their clients out here with me. I contract with two practices in town. I also do some work for a place called the Heart of Horse Sense and it's a farm out in Marshall and they work with veterans and first responders and people of trauma, people with trauma. And it's all grant funded, so the folks that go out there don't have to pay for it. And we have, I think right now there's probably, I think, nine horses in the working herd. So I go out there and do sessions with folks out there too.

[C]

And so would you say a lot of those are first responders?

[A]

Yep, we have first responders and veterans and.

[C]

Yes. Yeah. So sorely needed for those guys. I don't know how much, how much mental health help do they first responders get in the U.S. do you know?

[A]

Not enough. Yeah, yeah. We just had a group last week and it was, it was really interesting how, like how afraid they were to have to show emotions.

[C]

Yeah, I went a number of years ago, I went to a. It was called a men's emotional resilience retreat. But there was a guy there who was a firefighter and the guy that ran the retreat was, he was masterful. Like he could really crack you open, but he couldn't crack this firefighter. Like, this guy was zipped up tight. And you know, he had, he had said that, you know, he has, I think he has two teenage daughters. And he said, you know, we find teenage kids splattered all over the road all over the time and you know, he, you know, they just can't let that in. Like you said, these guys had trouble showing emotions and you know, there's a good reason for that. Like if you let that cat out of the bag, you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. You kind of have to, I think in order to do that work for a long time, you, you have to shut it off.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My niece is a paramedic in Australia and some of the stories she's told me about the, you know, the, the things that she's seen and things like that and they don't get much help there at all. And. Yeah. So sorely needed. So that's great stuff that you guys are doing.

[A]

Yeah. Before that I worked at a treatment center for teenage girls and that was pretty intense. I was there for 14 years.

[C]

What sort of a treatment center

[A]

it was for teenage girls? Anywhere from. Well, we had, we had kind of. In the beginning we had 10 year olds to 14 year olds and then it was 14 year olds to 18 year olds. And then at the end, it was 10 year olds to 18 year olds. So that kind of span. And it was basically, these were kids that usually had suffered quite a bit of trauma. A lot of kids that were adopted and they were. This was kind of their last stop. You know, it was. It was parents that were really afraid that their kids were going to die. So this was kind of the last hope for them.

[C]

Afraid the kids are gonna die. Were they. Was there addictions involved in. In this or what was. What was.

[A]

Oh, okay, addictions. Lots of suicidal ideations, attempts, tries, really shut down kids, really depressed kids, Kids that had been doing a lot of really dangerous or found themselves in really dangerous positions. Kids that had a really hard time attaching big attachment issues. So I did that for a long time, and I ran the equine part of that program, which was really hard, but learned so much because we partnered with the Hope for Horses, which is a local rescue here. And so I get these, like, kind of untouchable horses and put them with untouchable people. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

But don't you find that they. Don't you find they can kind of see themselves in the horses?

[A]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It was interesting because my first. The first thing I would do with every kid was I was like, okay, let's go meet all the horses. And we go out there, and first you get to see how kids meet horses. You know, it's because I tell them. I'm like, there's no. There's no rules. I just want to see how you meet a horse. And you could tell a lot about people, how they. How they approach a horse or don't approach a horse, but they would always pick the horse that was most like them. So I always knew. I was like, oh, no, you picked Molly. So I always knew kind of a lot about them, depending on what horse they picked.

[C]

Wow. So how did you get into this equine assisted space? You have a degree in sociology? Well, I mean, let's back up. Where were you? Where'd you grow up?

[A]

I grew up in Nebraska.

[C]

Okay. I was gonna say, you don't have a North Carolina accent.

[A]

I know. I grew up in Lincoln, Nebraska.

[C]

Lincoln, Nebraska.

[A]

You've probably never been there.

[C]

I've never been. I don't even know if I've been to Nebraska. Yeah, well, I may have driven through. It isn't on Highway 80. Does 80 go through Nebraska? I've driven through Nebraska. I've waved as I've gone by.

[A]

Yeah, it's pretty exciting stuff out there.

[C]

Pretty flat out there, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah. Huh. There's about three trees.

[C]

Yeah, that's about it. Flat and cold.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. Did you grow up in Lincoln?

[A]

I did, yep.

[C]

How big a town's Lincoln? Is it a city? Is it a town? Much better.

[A]

It's like 250, 000.

[C]

Oh, okay, good.

[A]

It's probably more than that now. It's probably bigger than that now, but yeah. So it's. It's city ish.

[C]

City ish. Did you have anything. Because now you're involved in horses. Did you have anything to do with horses as a kid?

[A]

I wanted to. I had all the plastic horses, so. All those little briar horses.

[C]

I had two briar horses. I didn't have a lot of them, but I had two of them.

[A]

Yeah. So I played with them in my basement a lot. And I always. Every time we went on vacation, I would make my parents take me on a trail ride. It was something I always wanted to do. They kind of thought I'd grow out of it, but I still haven't, so.

[C]

Sounds like you didn't. So tell me about a sociology degree. What. What led you to be interested in that sort of thing, and what did you think you were going to do with it?

[A]

I think I have. My mother has a lot of mental health problems and always has, so I never really. I just couldn't really understand. My childhood was really lonely. She was really depressed and shut down. So I think I wanted. I wanted to understand. So I first majored in psychology, but there was a lot. A lot of science, and I'm not really good at science, so. So I switched to sociology, and I really liked it. I really enjoyed sociology and philosophy, and I. I loved it. I went to Colorado State. They had horses at Colorado State. So that's kind of where I started, really being around horses a lot was in Colorado.

[C]

I just had to look up sociology because I actually don't know much about it. And I'm reading this, thinking, oh, if I. If I was. Had to go to college right now, I would choose sociology. It says sociologists act as social detectives, gathering both statistical and interview data to uncover patterns in daily life. They study why and how people interact in groups, as well as the root causes of societal issues like inequality, crime, social change. I mean, it's all the stuff that I'm interested in. It's. I know that's really what the podcast is about. So, yeah, I didn't actually know what. I don't have a degree in anything, so. But, yeah, I didn't know exactly. Know exactly what sociology was about. That's fascinating.

[A]

Yeah. And it's weird. I've never heard that exact definition and I'm thinking about all the things I've done going, oh yeah. So I guess I am using my degree.

[C]

Well before that it says sociology is the scientific study of human society, social relationships and institutions and, and investigates how cultural and societal structures shape human behavior and conversely how individual actions influence society. Like that's the, the rabbit holes that I'm interested in. So that's, that's cool. Yeah. I always thought if I had to get a, if I, you know, had to go to college and get a degree or something, that'd be in, you know, psychology or, you know, sociology or maybe anthropology. That stuff, all that stuff fascinates me, you know.

[A]

Yeah, same the.

[C]

Why the humans do the things they do and how did we get to this point and where do we go from here? That's probably the bigger question, especially right now. What a strange world we're living in.

[A]

It's pretty crazy.

[C]

Yeah. Think about, think about 10 years from now. Like 10 years, not that big a span of time. 10 years ago wasn't very long ago at all. But think about if AI, this whole AI thing takes off like they're talking about it might. What's the world going to look like in 10 years?

[A]

I don't know. It's a lot different.

[C]

Yeah, a lot different. So tell me your sociology degree. You got that? What were you planning on doing? Did you have like, this is what my path is going to be or you got the degree and kind of followed your nose?

[A]

Yeah. I'd like to say I had this plan and all happened and, but that, that wasn't the case. I, I didn't, I didn't know. I, I didn't. Had no idea. And, and it didn't really go. It's just been my, I don't believe in luck really, but it's been. I feel like hard work has paid off. You know, I've done. I kind of like doing hard things. So I started with some really hard, challenging in the dirt kind of jobs, you know, that were high, way over my head and really hard stuff.

[C]

What, what kind of jobs?

[A]

Well, I think first I was, I worked at a, like a detention center for kids. So it was like jail kid jail. Basically. I did that at night and then during the day I worked at a, at a school for, for bad kids. And so I'd see the kids during the day and then they'd get arrested. So Then I'd see them at night.

[C]

So this wasn't a. This was like a. I don't know, drunk tank. I don't mean drunk tank, but I mean, they weren't incarcerated for long periods of time. This was like when they'd come in and out sort of thing.

[A]

Yes. This was kind of the holding place that they went when they would get in trouble and then they'd wait for their court date. And. And so some things were really minor. Some things were, were pretty serious. And it was. The school was actually more violent than the, than detention center. Like the school. I mean, kids were punching out teachers and running away. And like some kid broke my finger in a window because he shut the. He was trying to get out or. I don't remember, but it was. It was just crazy. I don't. I don't know what I was doing, you know.

[C]

Where was this?

[A]

This was in Asheville.

[C]

Oh, that was. How did you get from Nebraska to college in Colorado and then end up up in North Carolina?

[A]

I met my, my ex husband now, but I met my husband in, in Colorado and then he was like a fun guy and got a internship in Florida on Sanibel Island. And I thought, well, Florida, I'll go. It sounds great. Let's live at the beach. So I went out there with him. Did not like it at all. And so we ended up coming to Asheville.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

After a year. Yeah.

[C]

And what did he, what did he do? Why did he have the internship? What was he doing?

[A]

He does whatever. I know. He got an internship at like a resort and he was doing like natural wreck and tourism was his major, so he was running, running like nature shows and programs and stuff for kids and. At a resort. Yeah.

[C]

And then you guys ended up in, In Asheville.

[A]

Yes, because we couldn't really afford to go back to Colorado. It was too expensive and too far. And I kept seeing commercials about Asheville. Like, I was like, oh, that place looks cool. And so we came to Asheville.

[C]

It's beautiful, isn't it?

[A]

It is beautiful. Yeah.

[C]

Is it in the mountains?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah. So lots of rivers and trees and beauty.

[A]

Yeah, it is. Yeah. We. We had the hurricane a couple years ago now, and that was. That changed a lot of things. But we're. We're getting back.

[C]

That's where there's a big flooding in Nashville, wasn't there?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. It took out towns and. Yeah, yeah, It's. We're still recovering.

[C]

Wow. So when did you. When did you. So you had this degree in social. Well, let's go back to the, the school and the jail. The. How did you. Which job came first, the jail at night time or the school in the daytime?

[A]

That's a great question. I think, I think it was. The jail came first. Yeah, the jail came first and then

[C]

the school and in the jail was, you know, it was yours kind of a counseling sort of a job.

[A]

Mine was just like, keep them contained, you know, like, watch them, keep them safe, like, make sure everybody's cool. And, And I, and I mean, the first time I was there was. I think it was maybe my first night or my second night, you know, it was like, hey, the kids are all gonna, they're gonna watch a movie. And they were supposed to be this other staff with me. And he was like, I gotta go out to my car, get something. And I'm sitting there and like, then the kids just like get up and they just start like making out because it was co ed, you know.

[C]

Okay, okay.

[A]

And I'm just sitting there like, what am I supposed to do about this? Like, I, I'm by myself. There was like 12 kids, you know, so just crazy stuff happened that I was in way over my head. I didn't last very long.

[C]

And what about the, the school job? Did it last longer?

[A]

No, not really. That was pretty scary too. I think from there I was offered a job with a community mental health place, which was just as scary, but different. Doing like in home work with kids and families, like out in Madison county, like out in the hills, you know, in these mountains. And I would go in and I'd go to school with kids that couldn't be, like they were too violent or. I was kind of their one on one worker.

[C]

Yeah, I bet you saw some. That's like the Appalachians, isn't it? Like.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They really didn't want some young girl from Nebraska like, telling them what to do.

[C]

No, you're like living in Deliverance or something.

[A]

Yeah, it was kind of like that,

[C]

you know, years ago I had a. When I was training horses, I had a client who was a nurse, but her first husband had, was a, a pharmacist. And she said every few years you get a, you know, you get a new job somewhere else. And they, they moved to somewhere in North Carolina, I think. Somewhere in the Appalachians. I know that. And what she said when they'd moved to New Town, she'd just get in the car and just drive around and just drive, play, just look around. And she said it was in the Appalachian somewhere. But they, she was driving up this dirt road, and she came around, and it was very rural, you know, she came around the corner. There was this old cabin there with, like, a porch with the porch railing on it and these three guys with, like, bib and brace overalls on with big white beards sitting there with shotguns across their laps, just sitting on the porch. And she said, she pulled. She came around the corner and saw him, and she slowed down and she looked at them, and they just stared at her. And all three of them stood up at the same time and just walked to the edge of the porch. And she said, I just put it in reverse. And I just. And I. She said I had to back several miles down the road because I couldn't turn around. But she said, I didn't want to go past that house. I mean, sure, you, you may have seen some stuff like that out there.

[A]

Yeah. And I, I was told by some of the, the folks out there, it was like, you know, if you're driving home and it's dark and the police tried to pull you over, like, don't stop. And I was like, what? Like, what would I do? And they're like, just, it's dangerous if you're not from here. You just be careful. So.

[C]

What might the police do?

[A]

I, I, I don't know. It never happened. So I was just real careful, even at night, because, you know, this was back in. I guess I moved here in, like, 90, 98, 99. It's quite a bit different now. Like, Asheville's really expensive, so. And people want to live here. So, like, those little towns are becoming full of artists, and it's changed a lot.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's got gentrified.

[A]

Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

[C]

So when you first moved to Asheville, was that when you first got into the equine assisted work?

[A]

Actually, when I was doing. When I moved to Asheville, well, in, In Colorado, I started riding horses there and then.

[C]

Oh, that's right. You tell me. The college had, like, an equestrian team or something. Isn't that something to do why you went. One of the reasons you went there.

[A]

Yeah, they had. It was you could take equitation classes, so they had about 25 horses and it would count for your, like, PE credits. So I was like, cool.

[C]

So I took these running laps.

[A]

Oh, it was. Yeah. I'm a runner, too, but. Oh, yeah, Yeah, I ran a marathon once. But tell us about your marathon.

[C]

Where did you run a marathon in Asheville?

[A]

I did the first, like, Biltmore Marathon. It was awful. It was, like, so cold. Like, you know, I'd be running and, like, the. You stop at those water stations, you know, to get a little cup of water. They were solid ice. I mean, it was so. It was awful. How cold was it? It was so cold. It was, like, cold and windy and, like, snowing and raining and. Yeah, it was in March. It was in March. It was awful.

[C]

That's like a marathon on steroids. You're not just running a marathon.

[A]

I know. I almost. I thought I was going to die. And there were lots of people that left because there was hypothermia. It was terrible.

[C]

What led you to wanting to run a marathon?

[A]

I like hard things. You know, my dad was suffering with dementia. He had really body dementia. And I was turning 40, and I was like, I am gonna. I'm gonna run a marathon when I'm 40. And I just kept thinking about my dad, like, if he can do that, I can do this. And just the one foot in front of the other and how much pain could it be? So, yeah, I don't know. I just. I wanted to do it.

[C]

How long did you train for it? Oh, tell me. Tell me about your running. Before that. What sort of a runner were you? Were you, like, a casual runner? You're a serious runner?

[A]

I mean, you know, I would say I did cross country in high school. It's not like I was, like, super good at it or anything. I just. Running, to me, like, long distance running is a way to, like, kind of clear my head. I like the feeling I have afterwards. I never really want to go for a run, but I'm always glad I did.

[C]

It's like ice baths. Like, my wife and I go to the ice baths, and it's the same thing. You never really want to do it. But after you get out, like, 20 minutes later, and your whole body's just. You're no longer cold, but your whole body's just buzzing.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, I've been listening to you for a long time. And the ice bath thing, like, I've been thinking about it, like, forever, like, because I hate cold water, and I know your wife does, too, and. And I hate feeling my body and, like, all those things. And I keep. You know, they have sauna houses here, and all my friends go, and everybody wants to do this ice bath thing. And I really know I should do it. Like, I do. I know it would be. So that's on my list, because you mostly.

[C]

Oh, thank you. You know, highly. I would highly recommend it. And when you say you don't like cold water. The thing is, no one likes cold water.

[A]

I know.

[C]

You know, it's like jumping out of a plane. Like, no one loves the feeling of, oh, shit, I'm gonna jump out of a plane. But you do it. And you've run a marathon and you like hard things, so you'll. You'll get into it when you start it. I can tell you'll get into it.

[A]

I don't know. When I was running that marathon, I got plantar fasciitis in my foot, and so I had to do ice baths for my foot. And I hated it. I mean, so now I just think about, like, just having my foot in an ice bath was like, my kids were so. They loved it. They would laugh at me and make fun of me because I was in so much pain. Like, when you come out of. When you take your foot out, that's when it hurts.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Like. Right.

[C]

But it sounds like you might have had your foot in like, really cold water. Like. Yeah, low 30s. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's. Yeah, that's a bit cold.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

You want to be sticking your whole body in that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So how long did you spend preparing for this marathon? Just not. And this question is not a marathon question. This is a hard things question. Like, you know, did you do a lot of preparation for it?

[A]

And I did, I did. I followed a program. So yes, I. I did follow. I think it was like nine months or ten months maybe. Yeah, I prepared for sure.

[C]

And up until that marathon, what's the furthest you'd run before that?

[A]

I had done a half marathon before. Yeah.

[C]

And how was the half?

[A]

Pretty hard. Yeah, I mean, it was in Asheville too, and it's pretty hilly here. You know, we're in the mountains, so it wasn't flat. And it was pretty. It was pretty difficult, but I did it.

[C]

So the, the marathon itself sounds like an ordeal. Like it's not just a marathon. It's freezing cold. How was your. What was. What was your mindset like during it? Did you get to like, breaking points and you're like, no, I can just keep going. And then you come out the other side of it. What was that like?

[A]

Yeah, I. I think I really kept thinking, like, just one foot in front of the other. That's all I have to do. You know, the part that messed me up was there was like a. There was like a part where you would like, run out and run back. And I can't remember what mile it said you were at, but so I thought Like, I was almost done. Like, I think it said 22, and I was like, oh, great, I'm 22. I, you know, I can, I can fin finished, but I was really only at like 18, so I saw that, like when I did the out and back, and I was like, oh, God, you know, that, that messed with me because I thought I was almost done.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. And when you train for a marathon, you don't run like the program I did, you don't run more than 20 miles. So I was like, that's weird because it's, you know, it's 23 miles. Right. So I wasn't really sure if I could do the whole thing.

[C]

So what did, what did running a marathon do for you?

[A]

What did it do for you?

[C]

You know, like, maybe did it change your self talk? Did it change your, you know, did you, you know, did you have a deeper appreciation for the things that you can do or, you know, did it really change you, the, the way you think about you?

[A]

I think it was a start, but not enough because there's things we'll talk about later. You know, I think that's, that's a great question because I think that's what I've been doing a lot is like doing these hard things, you know, challenging myself and seeing if I can believe in myself and change sort of how I feel about myself. But that was definitely one of those things that I'm always like, I want to be tough, but I want to be strong. And I, and I. But I don't know if I ever really believe that I am.

[C]

Yeah, that's a bit of a, a bit of a journey, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, unraveling those, those things you say to yourself about yourself.

[A]

Yeah. I think when, when you don't have a very good childhood in those early attachments aren't safe, really. It really affects us

[C]

in ways that, that almost don't seem related. You know what I mean? It affects more than what you think it would affect.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[C]

Working with, you know, working with like, say those kids in that school or then that the, you know, the kids at home that you were going to visit homes and working with, you know, those sorts of people, do you find that in helping them you learn things about yourself as well along the way?

[A]

Absolutely. And I, and I thought, you know, I worked with, I ran a foster care agency too, for like 10 years. And so I would, I would recruit and license foster parents and then place kids in their homes. And we had some foster parents that we had one Couple and they were just amazing people. Like, they. I think he had a third grade education. But what they would do for these kids and how much I learned, I, I just, I learned so much more from them on. You know, they'd get kids, they didn't care. They didn't care what their story was, what their behaviors were. It didn't matter. We could take anybody there and they would take them in and wouldn't kick them out either. At Christmas time, there'd be like 150 kids showing up at their house, you know, that they had, that they had a part in their lives. So I think that's. I learned a lot about how you can learn something from everybody. They were great, great people.

[C]

So tell me, I was asking before about the equine assisted stuff. When did that, when did you really start doing that?

[A]

That started when I was working with this kid in her house and she was this little.

[C]

This is, this is in Asheville. This is one of these.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was in Madison County.

[C]

Visit people. Yeah.

[A]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[C]

Why do I know Madison County? What's that famous for? Was there a movie called that?

[A]

There was kind of. There was some movie that was like filmed there a long time ago, I think. But Marshall is the town. Madison County. It's kind of cool now.

[C]

Like Marshall, West Virginia.

[A]

Marshall, North Carolina.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's cool. There's like a. They turned the old jail into a. Into a hotel and restaurant bar on the river. It's pretty cool. So there's. There's some cool things happening there, but

[C]

for some reason, Madison county, maybe it's a. It sounds like the name of a country band or something or I don't

[A]

know, it might be. Anyway, I had this kid and she was like super shy. Like she couldn't even look at people. She didn't talk. She just was super shut down kid. And, And I heard about this little horse place. They, it was called Mountain Hoax and they were doing like therapeutic riding stuff. And so I took her because I thought like this might help. And it did. Like she. She started riding horses. She started looking at people, started talking. Like her whole. Everything changed about her. And so that was kind of when I was like, huh, this is like, there's something to this stuff. So that was a big part of it. The other part was when I moved to here, to North Carolina, I found somebody to teach me how to ride. Or mean, I had been riding because I'd rode in Colorado and then came here and I called a bunch of places. And only one lady called me back and I went out to her farm. And it wasn't anything fancy or special, but. But she was special. She taught me all about groundwork, which I knew nothing about. I saw her just. I saw the horses respected her. They. They wanted to be with her. She just. Everything was different, you know, just. She blew my mind. I was like, I thought I knew how to ride horses. And then I met her and realized, like, oh, I don't. I don't really know anything. There's.

[C]

There's levels to everything, isn't there?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of how it started.

[C]

And where did it go from there? Like, how did you, you know, like, how did you end up. Because you were taking this girl to visit this, this place and then you get this writing coach thing. How did that. How'd you end up what you're doing now?

[A]

Well, I, you know, I left that job for something else. I left that job, the pen, the kid job, to go do this foster care thing. And I did that for 10 years. That's when I met Lisa Maxwell, who was running the farm. And I was going out there pubescent and still doing the horse thing on the side. Side. And then the foster care agency went out of business. The state, like cut all of our funding, so we went out of business. And a friend of mine was opening a residential treatment center for teenagers, and they had a bunch of land and they wanted horses. And so she came to me and said, would you be interested in taking care of horses? And I said, sure.

[C]

So this is the teen girl, the teenage girl place. Okay.

[A]

Yep. So I, I went there. We got two horses, and then eventually we had nine horses. And I did that for the next 14 years.

[C]

And you said initially there was like 10 to 14 year old girls, and then there was 14 or 18 year old girls, but then there was 10 to 18 year old girls. And you said, did they, did they come from like foster home type situations?

[A]

No, these were, these were. It was very wealthy folks. This was like a private residential treatment place. We did take some insurance, I believe, but it was thick. 12 to 15,000amonth to send your kids there.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Yeah. So this was not. It was kids that had. These kids had, had every service, every expert, every. Lots of them had gone to wilderness programs.

[C]

So you've got the kids that flunked out of the wilderness programs.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Or this was kind of after wilderness. A lot of kids would go to wilderness first, and then they would come to us or sometimes they'd come to us and we'd send them into wilderness, and then they come back.

[C]

And if you can say what. What was the most common thing going on with these kids?

[A]

I'd say depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, behaviors. It really wasn't like it was the kids that were picked on mostly, not the. Not the bullies. Of course, we had some. Some of that, too, but some really, really sad, really shut down, really smart, really talented kids that came through there.

[C]

So I had a late in the podcast a few years ago who worked at Passages in Malibu, which is a big drug and alcohol rehabilitation place that's. That tends up insta. Tends to have, you know, affluent clients like that because it's. It's very expensive. So it. Isn't it interesting that. That, you know, money can't buy happiness? You know, like. Like these kids are, you know, their parents can afford to spend 12, 15,000amonth to send them there.

[A]

Yep. And the problems, you know, I worked with community mental health for a long time, so those were very different, but the problems were the same. You know, lots of the same things.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So what sort of changes did you see in these kids? Because the horses weren't the only part of the whole process, were they? Like, there was a lot more going on at that facility.

[A]

Right, Right. Yeah, there. There was. Yeah. And I was kind of this, you know, I was down at the barn and kids would. Would come in. A lot of kids had horses themselves or had ridden horses or, you know, so they. They'd come in and they'd come down there and tell me how much they knew about horses. They had horses their whole life. I'd be like, great. You could. I'm sure you could teach me some things about horses. That'll be great. You know, and I would, you know, the crazy thing was, like, they'd come down there and these kids were so mad, they didn't want to be there. Like, this was not somewhere they wanted to be mostly. And they were so mad because there were so many rules and so many things they had to, you know, do. And they come down to me and I'd be like, all right, well, so, like, what do you want to do? And they're like, well, what do you mean? I'm like, well, I mean, what do you want to do? And they're like, well, aren't you going to tell me? I'm like, no. Like, you get to pick. Like, you guys are so angry all the time that your whole day is planned, and you guys don't get any Choices and then come down to me, and I say, you get to pick, and you want me to pick for you? I'm not picking for you. So it was always. They never. They never. They hated that question. Like, they were just like, just tell me what to do, you know? And I would be like, no, you gotta pick. Like, you gotta learn how to ask for what you want. You've gotta. And we can see if we can work to get there. But. And I had a couple, like, things, you know, I'd be like, I want the horse to come to you. Can you. Can you try and ask the horse to come to you? And then, like, I'm like, what do you mean? I'm like, I don't know. Just see if you could get the horse to come to you. And that was really difficult for a lot of them because a lot of them were used to just going out there getting their horse and dragging their horse around or having somebody else go get their horse or.

[C]

Right.

[A]

You know, it was cool, though, because we, you know, I'd have these kids for over a year. Usually they were there for at least a year or a little longer.

[C]

And so at 12 to 15,000amonth. Holy cow.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. So I would. They would. They would come in, they would usually hate it. Like, the horse part. They would hate me. They would hate the horsepower. They hated it because it was hard. It was really, really hard for them. And then by the time.

[C]

What really about it for them,

[A]

I think. I think the way I would do it, Ask it, like, learning how to ask for what you want, you can't just go do it. Some of the horses were rescue horses that you couldn't touch. Like, you had to work really, really hard to touch these horses. So it was just. It was an unlearned. Like, the kids that knew a lot about horses and had done things kind of the traditional way. It was hard. It was hardest for them because they had to unlearn all of the things that they. That they had learned, but they. They just didn't. Like. It was hard for them. It was hard for them to do things at liberty with horses. They. They wanted to do things to them instead of do things with them.

[C]

With them.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Imagine the ones that had horses a lot before that, that it was all about doing it to them, not with them.

[A]

Yes, yes. And horses, just these little horses, they, you know, they. I. I saw them work miracles with, because some of the kids, you know, I have so many stories about kids that I had this one kid who, like, she just didn't do anything. She just never. I. I would see her down at the barn like, what are you doing? She's like, I'm petting the cats. I'm like, I can't. You can't pet the cats. Like you. You got to do things. You're in treatment, you know? And she just refused everything. And then she was from. She was from New York City. She was from Manhattan. Never been around horses or anything. And she came down to me and. And I told her. I was like, well, you know, I just. I don't think you could probably. I don't think you could ever touch that horse over there. She's like, which one? I'm like, oh, that little gray horse over there. I just don't think you'd probably be able to touch her. She's like, you don't think I could do it? I'm like, I don't think so. Probably not, you know? And from then on, she was determined to touch that horse. And there were several times it was. She was there for over a year, and several times out there in the past year. Tears and anger and that horse running around and running around and running. Her getting so mad or me kicking her out of the pasture, you know, all the things. But eventually, she was one of the only ones that could touch the horse. And I still see her today. She's now 23 years old. I have that little horse in my yard right now. She calls me and checks on her, and sometimes she comes back and sees her and, oh, that's cool. She tells me all the time, like, that horse saved her life. Like, there's nothing got through to her except this little gray horse.

[C]

And she's doing okay now.

[A]

She's doing great.

[C]

Yeah, it's awesome.

[A]

Yeah, she's doing great.

[C]

That is so cool. What. What was the. The what. How would you put it? You know, what were the. The rate of success stories like that at a. At a. In a program, not just the horse part of it, but the whole residential treatment program. What was the success rate, if you could even call it that?

[A]

Yeah, I. I don't know. I. I talked to a lot of my kids that were the horse barn kids. I still hear from a lot of them. And I would say it's not always smooth. You know, I think these kids are in treatment, and then they get out, and maybe it goes okay for a while, then maybe it doesn't. But I think lessons come back to us, you know, I think sometimes it takes a while, and sometimes they have more Things to, to do or to go through or. So I always just kind of hope that it never goes away. Right. Like. Like the things they learn are the things that they experience. Maybe they can't access them right away, but I think, I think it makes a difference for them at some point, I hope.

[C]

Right. Even if it's just planting a seed.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know what the actual, you know, success rate is, but.

[C]

Yeah, I didn't really mean success rate because there's no win or lose or fail or whatever. I was just, I was just wondering, like, it sounds like this girl had a profound kind of change.

[A]

She did.

[C]

There was there, you know, I was just wondering if there was a lot of profound change or.

[A]

I'd say yes. I have lots of stories about kids that, that had had some of those big changes which, you know, it's great. I have one kid now who he's studying to be a, a therapist and do equine stuff and he's. I think he's 26 now and he was, he was a tough case too. And one kid's now just out of law school. She was like a really tough kid and she's doing great too. So there's, there's a bunch of them. Yeah.

[C]

So it sounds like you've like, worked with both ends of the spectrum sort of thing. The, you know, the, the foster care kids and then the, the affluent kids who have had every opportunity.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And they're probably not that far apart, are they?

[A]

No, you're right, they're not. Yeah.

[C]

The human condition.

[A]

Yeah. Those kids in treatment though, you know, they, they could talk the talk and they could out talk their therapists, you know, because they had had so many services and experts. So a lot of times therapists would bring them down to the horses because the horses can tell the truth. You know, the therapist like this kid, I think they're really doing good. I think they're really changing. I think, you know, this is starting to, you know, and then they come down to the horses and kind of be like, maybe not, you know, because that, that congruence piece, horses can really, can really show us.

[C]

Yes. That they're showing the incongruence, the inner landscape and the outer landscape at odds with each other.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

That's very cool. So I don't know the story, but I'm aware of something. At some point in time your life had a, one of those major life events. Can you tell us about that?

[A]

Yeah, I. Well, I met somebody at work and you know, I kind of touched on my. My childhood and I think when we don't get the love from our parents, we kind of search for it our whole lives. So I was working and the chef at work was, you know, kind of pursuing me at this time and you

[C]

were working, still doing. Yeah, same sort of work, Yep.

[A]

And I was being pursued by this guy and he, you know, I wasn't married or anything. I was single. And anyway, we got into a relationship and he was like a love bomber. You know, all the things that I wanted in life from my mother. He gave me all this attention and all these things that were very hard for me to say no to. So we were in a relationship for a while. And then I realized that he had a lot of trauma. There was a lot of things that I saw as trauma. And he was. But he was very vulnerable and what. You know, so that was. The wounded healer in me was all like, oh, he's so vulnerable and all these things. And. But I started to see like, it was. It was worse than I thought. So, no, no violence or anything like that, but it was just. He had a really bad drinking problem and when he would drink, it wasn't great. So not. Not anger. Just couldn't stop drinking.

[C]

Just sloppy drunk.

[A]

Just sloppy. Yeah, sloppy drunk. That's a good term for it. And so I. I tried to end the relationship with him a few times and he just wouldn't take no for an answer. So send me cards and, and presents and letters and all these things. And I just thought like, you know, I was like, oh, this is what love really is. And. But I wasn't going to get back together with. I just felt sorry for him, really. So I was in therapy and talking to my therapist about what I should do, and he had all sorts of plans and I was just keeping my boundaries clear and kind. And then we had been apart for like six months and it was right after the hurricane. So this was 2024, I think.

[C]

And so this is recent?

[A]

Oh, yeah, this is recent.

[C]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[A]

Yeah, this was in October of 2024, I believe. I went to the grocery store after work and I parked my car. I got out of my car, I heard, hey, how's it going? And I turn around, it's him. And I said. I was kind of surprised. You know, it was a Tuesday at 4:30 in the afternoon. He followed me into the store. We had a conversation briefly, and then I. I thought I got away. Like, I was like, okay, we'll see you later. And and then he found me again in the store and asked me to talk to him or take him back. Back. And he, you know, everything's changed. He stopped drinking, whatever. And I just told him it had been six months, it was time to move on. I was really sorry. I know it's hard. And I kind of thought I got away again. And I went and I checked out and was out going out to my car, and I was talking to my best friend on the phone, and p. I ran into him, and I go to my car, and he jumps in my car and my passenger seat of my car, and I'm talking to my friend on the phone. I'm like, hey, listen, he just got in my car. I'll call you back. And I threw my car in the back of my. I threw my phone in the back of my car. And he's begging me in my car, take me back. Oh, my God, I want you back. And crying. And I'm like, it's over. Like, we're done. It's over. Like, I gotta go home. I gotta feed my horses. Like, move on. Take care of your son. All those things. And he just. I kind of saw him sort of changed. Like, his whole posture kind of changed and kind of took a deep breath and was like, so it's really over? And I'm like, yeah, it's really over. And he was like, okay. He's like, well, just wait here, and I gotta get something out of my car, and I promise I'll let you leave. And I said, okay. And I start my car, and I'm getting ready to leave, and next thing I know, he jumps in my car and sticks a knife in my leg. And I didn't. I didn't see the knife.

[C]

I had.

[A]

I had no idea. It was just. When he sat down in my car, he stuck a knife into my leg, and it was about six inches into my leg. I didn't know this at the time, but he had stuck the knife in my tire first, in the back tire of my driver's side. So I didn't. I didn't see him do that. I had no idea. So he stuck the knife in my leg. I didn't feel the knife. I just saw it. And I started screaming, what are you doing? And took the knife out of my leg and stuck it in my chest. And I remember, like, grabbing the knife with my hands, and it was cold that day, so I. Everybody knows I'm. I'm always cold. So I had a bunch of layers. So I. Somehow I don't know how he's got £50 on me and a knife. I really have no idea how I survived. I took the knife from my chest and moved it to my shoulder. And I had my knee, my left knee, honking my horn, and I was screaming help. And honking my horn, and he was trying to quiet me. I just. I. I don't think he was saying anything, but I remember him, like, covering my face and hitting me in the face. And then I was screaming and screaming and screaming, and I don't. Then I somehow I fell out of my car and I landed on the ground, and I heard somebody tell me to run. And I got up, but I had just had a knife in my leg and my leg hurt really bad. And I started running and he was chasing me. And this was 430 in the afternoon at the grocery store after the hurricane. There were people everywhere. And I just remember seeing people, their faces, like, just in shock. And I'm running going, he is trying to kill me, and he has a knife, and I'm covered in blood, and he's covered in blood. And then I ended up running into the grocery store, and somehow I went. I went in behind the deli department and hid in the corner. And I didn't know if he was coming to or. I had no idea. I remember grabbing some woman in the grocery store going, you have to help me. And she said, don't touch me, because I was covered. I was covered in blood. So she had no idea what was going on. So I ended up in the back of the. The deli department. And I didn't have my phone with me. I. I borrowed somebody's phone, like the. The security guy. And the only number I could remember was my ex husband, which is not like, we're not friends, so. So that's not the number you want to remember, really, but it's the only one I remembered. And so I called him and told him that he needed to call my friend Nyssa and tell her that. That I was okay. I'd been stabbed. And I was at Publix. I was at the grocery store. And from there, so, you know, them. The paramedics came in and I had no idea. I. I didn't know if I was going to live, if my leg was going to be okay. I was alone back there. It was the most terrifying experience, like, ever. And, you know, we kind of talked a little bit about my running. The weird thing is, as I was training for another, like, I wanted to do another half marathon. So I had been training and running. And that probably, like, saved my life. Not only that saved my life, but what I learned later was I was honking my horn, and then I. When I fell out of my car, I had no idea how I got out of my car, but the manager was getting off work, and he was walking to his car, and he heard the horn honking and said to himself, he's like, I have to make a decision. Do I just, like, not get involved or should I. Should I get involved? And he decided to get involved. So he came over to the car and grabbed his. His feet. The guy that was attacking me grabbed his feet and pulled him off of me. I guess when he showed up, he had me by the back of the head and was punching me in the back of the head. And I was. He told me, he's like, you were fighting like hell. And he said, I pulled him out of the car. That was the first time that he had realized that this guy had a knife. And he's the one that told me to run. He's like, I told you to run. I knew he wasn't going to catch you. And so I. I've seen the video now of sort of the. The manager sort of directing traffic, and he was kind of keeping everybody away from him, and he was chasing me. And I saw all that on the. On the video.

[C]

It's like surveillance video, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah. At the parking lot. Yeah. So it was. You know, there was a moment in there. You know, there was a time in my life when, like, my divorce and I've had some dark times, some hard times, and I. I guess I. I was surprised that I fought. I remember the knife going into my chest, and there was a moment where I. Like a moment. It was, like, quiet and calm, and it was like I could just let. Just be over. Like, I could let this just go all the way into my chest, and it could be over. And I thought, because I didn't, you know, I was like, I don't know how long it's going to last. I don't know if I'm going be able to do this, but I thought about my kids, really, at that time, and thought, no, this is not how it ends for me. Like, you don't get to pick. And I guess my body just kept fighting when I. I always thought I was like a scared freeze person, but I still don't know. It's that adrenaline, I guess, that takes over. You know, you just. I just fought so hard, and then I ran. You know, it's like, being hunted. I feel like I was a prey animal and I was being hunted down and killed. Like, he, he just wasn't going to stop. He tried to come in after me and people stopped him. They said, you're not going into that store. So I didn't remember all that either, and I didn't think anybody helped me. And that was a big problem for me for, like, a little while. It's like nobody helped me. All those people were surrounding and nobody helped. And then I found out when I talked to the police after that that that wasn't true at all, that that manager pulled him off me. And then I think there were six people that lined the front of the store and told them wasn't getting in there. So I had a lot of. Yeah.

[C]

Wow. What a harrowing ordeal that is.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's really, it's really changed. You know, like, you talked about the marathon and the things that we do to sort of change the way we think about ourselves, and this one has been the biggest. It's just really changed my whole life. I mean, I wouldn't have reached out to you do this podcast. I, I, I just realized, like, how strong I am, and, you know, I'm still like, like I'm alive. And hopefully I do something really good with being alive.

[C]

Yeah, it's not exactly the one you want to sign up for to figure out how strong you are.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of, a lot of things that I'm still dealing with, of course. Like, how does somebody that loves you more than anything in the world and try and kill you? I can't really go to a grocery store anymore.

[C]

Oh, really?

[A]

I try, you know, I try, but every time I go, I feel different and I have bad dreams. And so luckily, my, my kids go to the store for me a lot, which is really great. I have a really great partner now, and he, he was with me during this whole thing, and he, he goes to the store. Like, not being able to go to the grocery store, you know, it's, it's, it's hard. It's. It's hard to go to the grocery store. It's hard to, it's hard to drive. For a while, I had to sell my car. I couldn't get in that car again, you know, and the way that trauma, Trauma has a lot of unexpected things, too, you know, like how your body feels different. Like nervous system stuff is just things that I see a truck that looks like his or somebody that might look like him. The little panic attacks that I still get. It's tough

[C]

when you, when you have one of those little panic attacks. Somatically, what, what do you get? Do you get the whole like the, the shivering? You know, like the. When they say someone walked over your grave or, you know, you get that sort of thing. Or is it the heart racing or what is it?

[A]

Yeah, I think it's changed. It's. It's definitely changed. In the beginning, I would have. It's like an out of body sort of experience where, you know, I'd wake. I'd wake up in the middle of the night and just uncontrollable, like shaking and terror and panic and I, I couldn't. I just couldn't get back, you know, like I was in. I was in it again. Like I'm. I'm in it again. I'm running, I'm. I'm fighting. I'm seeing his face. I'm just. It would be hard. I couldn't, I couldn't come back. I did some emdr surrounding all this and that's been helpful, I think, even though it was really hard, but I did some of that. And now, now it's different. Now it's kind of like, like I lose my breath, you know, like I can't. I can't really breathe. I feel really shaky. I usually have nightmares whenever I go to the grocery store. Like that night, I know it's going to be, it's going to be a nightmare night, usually night. So it's. I just feel like everything's really like shaky, you know, like the ground is shaky, I'm shaky, like nothing is solid, if that makes any sense.

[C]

Most certainly. Do you. Use the horses at all to help you?

[A]

Yes, yes. They've been a huge help with this and everything else. But yeah, I do a lot of trying to do a lot of mindfulness, trying to do a lot of this is where I am now. And feeling my feet on the ground and touch helps me a lot. And. I guess like, you know, just being in a horse's presence helps our nervous system. So I'm lucky enough that I get to be with horses all the time. So a lot of like one of my favorite things to do do is just lay down in the pasture and I'll. I'll just lay there and they'll be around or they won't, you know, but hearing their sounds and just being in their presence really helps. Yeah.

[C]

And I imagine you've. You mentioned you've done some emdr. I imagine you've had quite a bit of Help.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Still. Yeah. Lots of.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, think about the. You know, if you think about the. The childhood stuff, you know, it's all. That stuff's all kind of, you know, from what you've told me, that's all. Stuff's all labeled little T traumas, you know, attachment stuff, and not getting the love you want, not being listened to and that sort of thing. But that one's up. Big T trauma.

[A]

Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

[C]

I thank you for sharing that.

[A]

Yeah. I think I need big. I feel like I'm somebody that just. I guess I've got to have big lessons, you know, I. I don't. I. I don't know. I was. I was kicked by a horse once, but not just once. I was kicked six times by the same horse at the same time. And that was another. Like, there's just things that happen, you know, that. That I look back and I. I do really try and get the lesson from them, you know, that's important to me is to figure out, like, huh, how did this happen? Because I don't think that things, like, happen to us. You know, they happen through us. So I try and look at those things.

[C]

That one's up. Have you had the. I suppose it probably a spiraling thought, but have you. Have you had the thought about, what did I do to deserve that? Like, why did that happen to me?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It's tough because I think I was so careful with the breakup with him, you know, so kind. I was really kind. I was really clear. I had so much compassion for him. I just thought, like. I just felt really a lot of compassion because he had, you know, his mom had died and he was struggling with his alcoholism, and he has a son. And all the things I. I just. I was clear. I was. It was really clear. I had. And I was kind. And so I guess I've gone through lots of different stages when I think about it, you know, anger, sadness. I. I wonder, you know, I just. Like, how did you get there? Like, how. Like, we were only together for, like a year. It wasn't like we lived together or had this long relationship. It really. I think he saw me as somebody that could, like, fix him, heal him. You know, I was the one. Like, it was. Couldn't live without me kind of thing. And it wasn't really about me. It was. It was about his idea of me, I guess. I just, you know, he's in prison and I. I'll never have my questions answered. I said before I really like, to know the why of things. And I just. This one's just really hard for me to go. Like, how does somebody who's, you know, 60 years old and chef and it's, like, successful and has your own house and, you know, you're. You're out there doing things and you still, you know, used to be a chef on a yacht, had your own restaurant, and how do you get here? Like, now you're in prison, you know, and you're not probably not going to get out, like, for at least 10 years. And how. How do you make that decision? Like, how do you.

[C]

How do you. How does that happen?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, he. He tried to kill himself after the attack, but it wasn't successful. So I guess that was. I. I guess that was what he was going to do, is kill me and then kill him. I. I don't. I don't know. I don't know.

[C]

Have you. I'm sure you have. But, you know, that thought that came to you in the middle of that, like, I could just let this happen, Has the fact that you had that thought, have you spent some time thinking about where that came from?

[A]

Yeah, like I said, I. I had a really. I had some. I've had some dark times and. And kind of wished for the end before, and. And now I think, like, I don't. That's not what I want anymore. You know, I wanna. I want to really be here. I want to experience more things. I want to. I want to do good things. I want to see my kids, you know, become adults. And they're pretty close. I mean, Mason's 20 and miles, 17, but it just changed the whole way I think about myself, like, how strong I am and all the people that came and helped me, my friends. You know, when I went to the hospital that night, so many people showed up and all the love that I have, I just. I didn't know. You know, people say a lot of things. Like I said, I worked with a lot of kids. I still talk to a lot of them, and I've heard people say a lot of nice things about me, but I never really believed them, you know, so now maybe I'm trying to start believing it. I'm trying. You know, that's been. A lot of my work has been, like, trying to bike myself, I guess. And now I'm like, well, I'm pretty strong, actually, and people care and I make a difference and I have a purpose. You know, a horse has been a big part of that. Working with untouchable horses and Untouchable kids. And, you know, this little horse I have out in my yard, I couldn't touch her for two years, you know, and now I can walk right up to her and it takes time, you know, it takes. It takes time. So I feel like maybe this is my time, you know, I'm. I'm ready to do some pretty cool. Pretty cool things.

[C]

Yeah, it's almost like a. I don't know, like a rebirth or something, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's really crazy that I lived. Like, I had no idea. Like, you know, that whole go into a knife fight with a stick or whatever. It's like I didn't even have that. So glad it wasn't a gun. You know, I, I just. I don't know how I did it.

[C]

Yeah, it's not something you want to look for or go searching for, but it's really interesting that, you know, the outcome of that is like. And that's, that's a big thing to say. Like, I started to like myself.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

I mean, because I, I, I, I, I, I think so many of us without. I mean, I. For the longest time, I think that flew underneath my radar that I didn't even realize that I didn't think much of myself. You know what I mean? And then looking back, you think about all the things you, all the outward things you do that are trying to, you know, get external validation or whatever from other people, and you think you're doing these good things or whatever, and then at some point in time, you realize, oh, I was doing that because I need somebody else to tell me I'm okay, because I don't think I'm okay.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[C]

And I don't know, I think it's kind of freeing. Once you understand. Once you, once you get to the point, you understand that, then there's a lot of work from there going forward. But, you know, I think a lot of people maybe can go all the way through life and not really be aware of that subconscious conversation going on there.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that's why I got into horses in the first place. It was like, they're not gonna lie to me. You know, they, they are going to show me who I am. And, and they're not gonna, they don't have therapists or mothers that are telling them now, when Terry comes out, great bit. You, you'd be nice to her, you know, So I think when I was working with these horses or doing things with horses, if I got something pretty good, I thought I just kind of got Something pretty good. And then I, but, you know, then I'd go like, well, it's probably accident. Like, the moon is probably in some certain phase or like, you know, you

[C]

know, it's got to be something else. It can't be me, and I can't be me. You know, I'm not worthy.

[A]

Right. So I, I think that's a big reason I, I'm so drawn to horses, is just because they, if you get something good, you're like, it's hard to kind of go like, that was an accident. I don't think there's many accidents.

[C]

So, so that was only a couple of years ago that, that, that happened. Has it affected your work at all?

[A]

Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think I, I really, I mean, I think a lot of us that are doing this kind of stuff,

[C]

you

[A]

know, we, we kind of know, like, there's, we've had our own traumas, like, our own things that we've dealt with, you know, so this is yet on a whole nother level of really experiencing. I mean, I couldn't, I couldn't really do sessions for a while afterwards because it was just too, it was too much, you know, and there's certain things that, like, I had a session the other day with somebody who I had heard had served some time, and, and that got me a little, like, worried, you know, that got me a little like, oh, no. Like, I don't know if I can handle that, you know, but it was, it was actually really fine. But, but yeah, I think I understand, like, I said that, like, big trauma and I think any kind of trauma really, but, like, how it affects our bodies and those things that, that we don't always think about. It's true. You know, I'm a, I'm a big Gabor Mate fan, and, you know, he talks a lot about trauma and addiction and how trauma lives in your body. And I totally agree that there's so many other things that, that it does that we don't really know, you know?

[C]

Have, have you ever read Waking the Tiger?

[A]

I, I, I've started it, yes. Yeah.

[C]

Because, you know, he doesn't that book start out, like, as a car accident, someone gets hit by a car?

[A]

I think so, yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Because, you know, he talks about, like, the incomplete fight response, getting stuck in the body and things like that. And, and I feel like it's, it's for you, and I'm a, you know, I'm not educated in this at all, but for you to be able to open the door get out and run inside. The store had to kind of complete that fight flight response. You know, you thought. You always thought you were a bit of a freezer, and you didn't just freeze up and stay there. You actually. And like, the. The store manager said you were fighting like hell.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I had a therapist tell me that she was like, you know, at least like, you got to run. Like you weren't stuck, you weren't trapped. You know, that's probably gonna be good for your healing. Like that you weren't stop. You got to run it off. You know, it's like a deer gets hit by a car, and if they don't, if they're not dead, they get it. They run. You know, we run it off.

[C]

Have you ever seen the. The video of the polar bear that Peter Levine talks about in waking the tire?

[A]

I don't think so.

[C]

It's on YouTube. You look it up. But they were. These guys in the Arctic were darting polar bears out of helicopters to put tracking tags on them. Anyway, this polar bear is on the ice running, and the helicopter's above him, and they shoot him with a dart, and he runs and then goes and goes to sleep. So they land the helicopter, they tag him. But when this polar bear comes to, he's laying on his side, and as he comes to, his legs start running kind of like a dog chasing a rabbit in their sleep. So of a thing, his. His legs start running. And they were saying that's the. That's the completion of that. Of that flight fight flight response sort of a thing.

[A]

And.

[C]

And it. And it, you know, it's. It's the energy doesn't get stuck in their body. Like Gabor Mate says, you know, trauma is not what happened to you. What happens inside you because of what happened or what stays stuck inside you because of what's happened to you. I was just thinking that the, you know, the fact that you actually completed that fight flight response.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Probably makes things easy. I'm not saying they're easy.

[A]

Right, right.

[C]

But, you know, there's got. From what I've read, there'd be less things stuck in you than they would be if you hadn't.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's true. I think so too. And I think those. When I would have those really bad night terrors, my whole body would be moving kind of like the polar bear, you know, Like I would, but I couldn't stop shaking. Like, my whole body was uncontrollably shaking. And that might be it. Kind of living through my Body, too. Yeah.

[C]

Wow. What an ordeal.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You are a strong human being. You know that?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I do.

[C]

That's good. You do? You don't think, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That's awesome. I might get to some of your questions right now because some of these are probably gonna, maybe relate back to some of these, Some of the ones you chose. The first one you chose, what was your biggest failure and how has it helped you?

[A]

Well, you know, when I hear that question, I, I, My first response is like, divorce. And not that I really think it's a failure. I, I guess I, I did think it was a failure when it was happening, but I would say my divorce really shifted everything. Right. It's like the future you thought you were going to have is over and it's different. And so I, I've really changed since, since then in, in huge ways. I had to. I had two young kids and I had to move up my farm, and it's hard to find a place to live. And you got two horses. So it was, it was kind of the beginning of this whole transformation process for me, I think, where I, that failure has made me who I am now. I don't think I would have done as much, Done as many things, or I just, I would be a different person without that. So it was hard. It was really, really hard. But it was forced me to kind of stand on my own and figure it out.

[C]

You said at the start that you don't think it's a failure now. Well, at the time I did. That's what that question's all about. What was your biggest failure? And looking back, of course it wasn't a failure. It was the next step. But, yeah, yeah. One of the questions you didn't ask, but I'm going to ask you anyway, because I'm interested, is do you have a favorite book, One that you, not necessarily your favorite book to read, but one that you tell other people about? You should read this book.

[A]

Well, actually, I have this little book buddy, right now. It's called, it's, it's a. It's called lead with your heart lessons from a life with horses.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And I love this little book because it's, I think he said that it's just a collection of, like, he would, Whenever he'd go out and work with his horses, he'd bring a little postcard with him and he'd write down sort of what he learned in that session with his horse.

[C]

So Ellen Hamilton, for you guys at home is a. I think he's a Neuroscientist.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[C]

Who got really into the horse stuff. And he's written several books. There's that one and there's another. Another one. I have them both on my Kindle.

[A]

Zen Mind. Zen Horse.

[C]

Yes, That's.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And Mindset Horse.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And he has a DVD that's pretty hard to find, but it's called Playing with Magic.

[C]

Oh, really?

[A]

And it's. Yeah, it's him and his wife doing equine sessions with terminally ill cancer patients.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Uhhuh. And it's, um. It's a really good little documentary. One of my favorites.

[C]

I'll have to look for that. You mentioned Gabor Mate before. Have you ever read the Myth of Normal?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I love that book too. I tell a lot of people about that book as well.

[C]

I love that book because I'd been down some rabbit holes for about six or seven years by the time I read that book. And I was like, oh, I could have saved myself six or seven years of rabbit holes. Because this covers all the things that I'd kind of looked at.

[A]

Yeah, it's pretty incredible.

[C]

Summarized all that sort of stuff. Plus, plus. More. You know, there was a. There was a thing in that book, a line in that book that kind of blew me away. And you're talking about, you know, attachment trauma and stuff as. As a child, but in that book, Gabor Mate said. He was talking to this guy and the guy said, oh, I didn't, I didn't. I didn't have any trauma as a kid. And Gabor Mate says, do you haven't. Did you have an adult that you could tell absolutely anything about how you're feeling about anything at any point in time? And he goes, never. Never had an adult I could tell the truth to. And he goes, there's your trauma. Think about who. Who did have that. You know what I mean? Think about. My wife told me something a few years ago that it just blew me away because it's not my. It wasn't my reality. But her dad worked in the aerospace industry and he moved for a new job and then the government contract fell through or whatever, so he was going to move back to his old job. So she was going to move back close to the town, the little town that she grew up in. But they weren't going to be in that town. They're going to be in a town 20 miles away. And she had. Her dad said, you could go to the same. You could go to the. Go to school in the town. You grew up in, which means you're now in high school. She was going to be a freshman in high school. So you'll be going to school with the kids that you knew, you know, when you were younger, or you can choose to go to school in the new town. And my wife said yes. So I went and talked to my English teacher or some teacher. She want talk to one of my teachers and asked him what they thought. I'm like, what? You went to someone like that and you confided it, like having this, this, you know, this decision to make and what are your thoughts on it? I'm like, I, I don't know if it was the environment I grew up in. It was me, but I was never, I would. Was not comfortable enough to confide in an adult. You know what I mean? Like that. Yeah, that little story she told me just blew me away. And then when I read that bit in that book about Gabor Mate saying, there's your trauma right there. If you didn't have an adult, you could just tell how you felt about any subject, it's like, wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So good. Okay, next question that you chose. If you were to spread a message across the world, one that people would listen to, what would that message be?

[A]

I. I'd say, like, you got this. You know, I, I think we're more capable than we think, stronger than we think. You know, things are going to change. I, I know people that kind of opted out of life early, and if you just go the time, you know, like, everything is going to change. There's going to be good and bad and hard and beautiful, and if you can just, just wait, it's going to change. And you can do it, you know, you can. You got this. That's what I'd say.

[C]

You know, I think it's for the listeners at home, it's one thing to hear somebody say that, but it's another thing to hear your story and what you've been through and then have you say that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know what I mean? Yeah. You've got some skin in the game sort of thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. That's very cool. What quality do you admire in other people?

[A]

Transparency, you know, honesty, vulnerability, humor. You know, I, I. Laughing is really important and just being real. I just, I just want people to be real, you know, just tell me. I just, I just want to know. I think that's. People would say that about me all the time. Like, wow, you're so direct. You just tell people how it is, you know, And I'm like, well, like, why not? You know, like, just. I just. I just want people to be truthful, to be honest. That's really important to me.

[C]

It's interesting you said something there about. Being real or being honest, but I feel like there's a. I feel like there's a way to do it that's. Well, I'll tell you where. One, where I'm getting it. Here I was listening to this speech by this. He's a elite athlete coach, but he was talking about one of his people he coaches, and he was saying that she does not care what other people think about her while still caring about them. And I think it's very easy to go, I don't care what people think about me, and then go out of your way to be a dick. You know what I mean? And so it's kind of the same thing with the being honest.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, like, being honest about things but not going, yeah, I'm allowed to be honest, so I'm going to be an ass.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You know what I mean? I feel like there's a distinction between the two.

[A]

Well. And I think it's, like, judgment, too. Like, dropping our judgment, you know, like,

[C]

it's a big one.

[A]

Yeah. You know, if we could just. Because I've. You know, I've heard a lot of stories. I've been in a lot of sessions with folks. I've heard a lot of things. I just remember one. We had this kid who. She just wouldn't really talk, you know, she just was really shut down. And the horse that she was working with went over there, and he just started, like, kind of pawing her, you know, she was, like, sitting on the ground, and the horse just kind of went over there and was taking his front legs, like, just, like, shoving her, you know, like, hey, what are you. What are you doing here? She's like, what's going on? Like, why is he doing that? You know? And I'm like, I don't know. What do you think? You know? And it turned out, like, she just said that she. She was afraid to tell us. She was afraid to tell anybody what kind of thoughts she had. Like, she was like, they're just really dark thoughts. I just. I think terrible things, you know, I just. And I. And I think I'm just a really, like, bad, horrible person, you know, And. And what? You know, the therapist was like, there's thoughts. You know, y' all have thoughts, and that's all they are. No, and you're not alone. Like, you have these thoughts as long as you're not acting on some of those really dark bots. It's pretty normal to have pretty dark thoughts, you know, so it's dropping that judgment and allowing people to be honest, you know, without fear that we're gonna judge them.

[C]

You know, I think that's one of the. The. I don't know. The most amazing things in life is when you finally discover that those thoughts that you have that you never want to tell anybody about.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because what would they think of me? And when you do finally, you know, you're in a safe enough space to share those thoughts instead of getting laughed at. People go, oh, yeah, me too.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then you're like, what? You got to be kidding me. I've been. I've had all this stuff going on so me for years, and I've never let it out because. Because I'm going to be judged and you guys have the same thoughts as me. I think that's. That's one of the craziest perspective changes in life, when you finally get to. You get to understand that. That nothing that's going on inside your head is not in somebody else's head.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

The people you think are normal and you are not.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And that same stuff's going inside their head.

[A]

Yeah. We have a lot in common. You know, there's a lot of commonalities, for sure.

[C]

You know, when I went to that, I was talking about that men's emotional resilience retreat I went to, and it was quite a few years ago now, but there was. There was a range of people there from, like, men from. From one guy was a former UN hostage negotiator. Like, he was a badass guy. And then there's this really artistic filmmaker guy from. From Kansas or something or other.

[A]

Kansas, yeah.

[C]

Which is interesting, but, you know, there's a. The whole gamut of masculinity sort of thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And basically they all had the same story. They all had the. The. The. The same thing, you know.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

And that was. For me, that was like, oh, I thought you were super cool and you were super cool, and I'm not very cool. And, you know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what's cool about, like, doing equine sessions with folks, because it's like, I kind of know what they're thinking, you know, or I'll say, I'm not a therapist, so I can. I can say whatever I want in there, you know, like, I wonder if you think this way or, you know, and it's. We're Just we have a lot in common. You know, there's a lot of commonalities between us, and if we can find those things, it can really, you know, the whole thing that we're all in this together is, is, it's kind of true, you know,

[C]

Very much so. This question, of course you chose this one. Everybody choses this one, though.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What is your relationship like with fear?

[A]

Well, I mean, I guess I would say, like, it's my, it's my closest friend, my worst enemy, and my biggest motivator. You know, I, I, I, I feel like I've always been a really fearful person, but I've always done all the things to, to kind of look it in the eye. You know, I, I, in college, and I was scared of height, so I tried mountain climbing, you know, Like, I tried mountain climbing, you know, and then I scared of running water, so I tried kayaking. You know, I just don't want it to prevent me from living. So I am scared a lot. But I really try and look at those things that are, that, like, we should be scared of. And then what's anxiety? You know, I feel like I have a lot of anxiety and, but I, I want to challenge myself. I want to do things that, that kind of look fear in the eye. Like, I'm scared, but I'm doing it anyway, you know, it's a big motivator for me. Always has been. Yeah. I listened to the Mark Rashid podcast again recently, and when you. He didn't pick that question. His wife picked his question. But when you were talking to him about that and he was like, I don't know, I never, I never really think about it, you know, I don't really think about fear. I was like, oh, my God, would that be awesome?

[C]

Like, it's like when someone says something like that, you're like, you what?

[A]

No, I was like, oh, my God, I would love to not think about it. Um, yeah, so, yeah, so you, you,

[C]

you, like I said a minute ago about the, the, the stories you have in your head about yourself, and then you find out that other people haven't too. But then you also have things like that that you think everybody has, and you realize some people don't have that. I know what would be, you know, think about one of those, like, existential sort of questions that people will ask, like, what would you do if you weren't afraid? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I don't know.

[C]

I mean, so that question is not about facing your fears, overcoming them, like, what you're talking about. This is about if you weren't. If you didn't have fear, if you weren't afraid.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What would you do?

[A]

Maybe. Maybe I did nothing. You know, Like, I. I don't know. I mean, it's a great. I hope someday I'll be less fearful, but, you know, I don't know.

[C]

Who knows? And then your last question you chose was, what does it mean to you to be a leader and a follower?

[A]

Oh, boy. Well, I. I had this little. I. I just. When I. When. When I saw this question, I thought of this little story that I had with the horse once. I had this little horse that she was a rescue. And she had been kind of handled, you know, pretty rough before she came to me. And. And she shows up to me in a really hard time. My divorce, my dad's dying of, you know, dementia and all this kind of stuff. I was kind of on this, like, I'm gonna figure this horse out kind of thing. We went on a little trail ride, and she was pretty green. I mean, she hadn't really been bitten very much at all. And there was three of us on the trail ride, and we take off, and this one girl that was leading the way, she's this, you know, like, barrel racer, like, you know, in her 20s. Like, you can't stop her. She'll characterize anything. Let's. She's not so good for me because she's. She's not scared. And. And then somebody was behind me. There's three of us. We take off and we go up this logging road. But it's like this crazy road. It's, like, super steep, and there's, like, ditches and rocks. And, like, it's crazy. I'm like, why am I doing this? Like, scared me. It's like, I'm terrible. And my horse is, like, green little horse. What am I doing, right? So my crazy friend, you know, she run. She goes up the mountain. She's there. The girl behind me, like, looks at the mountain. She's like, I'm not. I'm not doing this. There's no way. And so she turns around and I'm standing there like, God, I gotta make a decision. Like, I gotta go up there. I gotta turn around. Like, you know? And so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna go up there. I'm like, we're gonna go up there. And so we start going up, and I'm terrified. I. I'm scared out of my mind, right? And I'm holding their super tight, and we're going up there. And she's like, like, what are you doing? And I get to a certain point, I'm like, I'm gonna turn around. Like, I can't. I can't do this anymore. And. And then I'm like, I gotta go down, you know? I gotta go down. I was like, like, this is gonna be worse, you know, And I'm thinking, like, this horse is just gonna run back to the barn, like another horse left, you know, and she's just gonna run back to the barn. So we're. We. I turn around, we're making our way down there, and I'm holding this horse so tight. Like, I'm just. The reins are tight. I'm tight. I'm like, you know, this poor horse had, like, no neck now, you know, and I'm holding her and. And she comes to this, like, little ditch or something and kind of hops over the dips, and I fall off. And I expect that the horse is just going to run around back to the barn, right? Because that's what I thought she would do the whole time. And I sort of. I look up and she's standing right above me. And if that horse could talk, she. She would have been like, you know, what are you doing down there? You know, And I was just like, oh, like, I got back on her. I had a loose rein. She took me carefully down the mountain. I picked her way through the ditches and rocks, and. And I just thought, like, that's what she needed. She just needed me to let her lead. You know, I was. You know, I was the leader, you know, I'm holding her tight. Oh, don't do this, don't do that. And. And I just needed to trust her, and she was going to take care of me, you know, And I think about that, like, sometimes we gotta lead, and sometimes we gotta let them lead. And I think Mark Rashid talks about, like, passive leadership terms like that. But I think about. Horses teach us about leading and following. And I think about watching these kids lead their horses on these tight little, you know, under the chin and like, why. Why are we doing that? You know? So I think leading and following, sometimes they're. They're kind of similar, you know, or together, I think. But that story really taught me a lot too, about letting go a little bit.

[C]

That's great. You got back on and everything was completely different because you gave up control.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It could be the secret to life right there.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay, so, Terry, why don't you tell us how people can find you. You have The. What's it, what's it called?

[A]

You are heard.

[C]

You are heard.com. so it's www.you are heard.com. what about social media? You got something on social?

[A]

I mean, I'm on, I'm on Facebook and Instagram, but I don't really do much on. I had paid somebody to do some marketing stuff for me, so there are a couple things on there, but I'm not.

[C]

But for the most part, it's you, I heard.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I love that.

[C]

That's. That is such a good. How'd you come up with that one?

[A]

I don't know. I just, just did. I just thought of it. You know, it's like came to me

[C]

so perfect for that. Okay, well, thank you so much for joining me and sharing your story. That was, that was amazing.

[A]

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for what you do.

[C]

Oh, you're welcome. Yeah, keep doing what you're doing there in, in North Carolina. One day when I'm in the neighborhood, I'd love to stop by and say hi.

[A]

Yeah, look me up.

[C]

I shall. Okay. So you guys at home. Thanks so much for joining us and we will catch you all in the next episode of the Journey on Podcast.

[B]

Thanks for being a part of the Journey on Podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warwick has over 850 full length training videos on his online video [e-mail] Be sure to follow Warwick on YouTube, Facebook, Facebook and Instagram to see his latest training advice and insights.