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- [00:07]
Will Rogers
Journey on magic lies within the trails we ride.
- [00:13]
Warwick Schiller
You're listening to the Journey on podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warrick is a horseman, trainer, international clinician and author who helps empower horse people from all over the world with the skills, knowledge and mindsets needed to create trusting partnerships with their horses. Warrick offers a free seven day trial to his customers comprehensive online video library that includes hundreds of full length training videos and several home Study courses@videos.warwickshiller.com just.
- [00:42]
Will Rogers
Because you see what is Shiller.
- [00:44]
Warwick Schiller
G'day, everyone. Welcome back to the Journey on podcast. I'm your host, Warwick Schiller and today we are coming to you live from Ekwatana in Melbourne, Australia. And if you guys don't know what that is, Ekwatana is the largest and most prestigious horse expo in Australia, which I imagine that would mean it's probably the southern hemisphere. And so I've been here recording a podcast each day for the last three days and the previous three people I had on here I had not had on the podcast before. But today we have the dressage superstar of Aquitana this year, Will Rogers, who has been on the podcast before. So welcome back, Will.
- [01:25]
Will Rogers
Thanks for having me, mate. Good to be here.
- [01:27]
Warwick Schiller
It's, I'm glad to see you here. You know this, it's kind of like my worlds are colliding right here because, you know, I do lots of horse expos, go to lots of horse expos. And as podcast listeners would know, I'm on a bit of a journey where I view the world a bit differently than a lot of people do. But it's like, Will Rogers, you are here as the dressage. What's your tag say? They turn that thing around. Star presenter. Thank you. The dressage star presenter. But you are also heading down the rabbit holes. I'm heading down and I've just, it's just so amazing for those, the two worlds to collide. And you know what I want to talk about here because we've unraveled your story on the podcast before, I want to get your thoughts on. Well, first, what's it been like presenting here?
- [02:16]
Will Rogers
Good. I've really enjoyed it. I think the audience has been really good, like really receptive and I brought some messages that, you know, obviously very similar lines to you and just to feel that people are really open to it because I think the thing that for me, and I know it's the same for you, this inner journey in relationship to what we're doing with horses is really where all the magic lies and so many of us have been sort of lost in the vortex of trying to be a good trainer, trying to be successful, trying to win competitions, trying to get better and everything. And without sort of working on the right place, we've been looking elsewhere. And to bring that message to people and to get so many people coming up to me afterwards and really resonating with it, you just feel, wow, this is. This is the reason why I came here, you know, And I know that's the same for you. You go all around the world and you want to sort of share that, that sort of message. And I think the more of us that are bringing awareness to that, how much together with horses, we can transform and live life in a better way and a more meaningful way. I think this is sort of has the possibility to change not only the horse world, but beyond that as well.
- [03:39]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah, most certainly. And, you know, you're right. I do travel around the world, do lots of clinics, present horse expos and things like that. But for the most part, for me, when I present, I like to do a clinical horse expos. I've been pretty public about where I'm going. So usually the people that show up are expecting the message that gets delivered. But you're the dressage star presenter here, and so a lot of people who are fully entrenched in the. In the dressage world have come along to watch and hear about dressage. And you probably haven't talked much about dressage here, have you?
- [04:11]
Will Rogers
No. Well, the interesting thing is, on one hand, it's a bit of a surprising choice to choose me as the dressage presented because I haven't won gold medals, I'm not Carl Hester and so on, but obviously I've had a lot of experience in the dressage world and that sort of thing. But I think in this time, it's incredibly important to just realize that the past is the past. But we need to create a new future. And to create a new future, we need to think, where does it need to go? That makes sense. And I feel that the only pathway where it makes sense is that we are trying to work together with the horse. And to do that, we need to be able to work with ourselves in relation to the horse and otherwise it just doesn't work. You can't work together with any other being if you don't work on yourself. And so for me, you know, you've been a big sort of influence at a certain period in my career because I saw the transformation in you and that was very inspiring. And how open you were about just sharing. It's like, hey, you know, turns out I'm wrong. Turns out I need to look elsewhere. It wasn't the horse. And when you've. When you've made that change, and I think what I noticed is just seeing some of those changes you made and seeing how different your horsemanship was and how the horses related to you and how you were as a person, everything, it just kind of. It sparked something in me. And I remember calling you and talking about attunement and sort of bouncing that around and then sort of going away and sort of taking those ideas and then sort of having other certain people have influences on that and then going further. I just realized what I was looking for all along was within me. You know, just to recap on. I've said this all week, but I was always looking to try and be exceptional at what I was doing, and I was looking to outsource it all the time, try and copy Warwick, try and copy this person, or, you know, try and follow these things without realizing that I had the magic in me and I just needed to work from that place, work within me, and then try and follow the guidance of, you know, process, technique, knowledge, understanding. But I was just outsourcing. I was sort of taking my own power away. And I think that's for me, because that's been my story, my experience. I really want to help people with that because it just. It hurts me to see people struggling when you see so much potential in them. You know, it's. It's because I know what that feels like, and if I can help people and their horses go there, I feel like that's paying it back in the way. That feels good to me, you know?
- [06:54]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. So, you know, Will, you're quite the deep thinker. I think we first connected, you might have messaged me on Facebook. You know, I'd seen, you know, videos of you floating around Facebook like, you know, riding a dressage horse with having motocross, motorbike bike guy jump over the top of you while you do it.
- [07:13]
Will Rogers
That was my wife, but. Yeah.
- [07:14]
Warwick Schiller
Is that your wife? Was it?
- [07:16]
Will Rogers
But the same. We were doing these shows with the big environmental with the tarps and. Yeah, all the deal. Yeah.
- [07:22]
Warwick Schiller
And I, you know, I'd seen that, and I'd seen that you're an Aussie guy. So I was kind of following you on social media. And then one day you reached out and you messaged me about. I don't know, you asked me a question or whatever.
- [07:31]
Will Rogers
It was something about the attunement, I think, because I could sense you're on to something there.
- [07:35]
Warwick Schiller
And so, yeah, then. Then messages turn into Facebook messenger calls. And, you know, the first. I think the first time I spoke to you, it was probably two hour conversation. By the end of that conversation, it's like, oh, this dude is a deep thinker and is looking for deeper meaning in a lot of things. And that was, you know, that was the. We had a number of conversations like that. And then I had you on the podcast. Do you remember when that was?
- [08:04]
Will Rogers
It would have been 2021, I think. It would have been early 2021, I think. Some. Somewhere around that.
- [08:11]
Warwick Schiller
And by the time I had you on the podcast, you'd. You'd been doing some delving and I think, yeah, I think when I had you on the podcast, you'd just come back from, like, you took some time off and went to the mountains. And what can you tell these guys about what, that. What you did in the mountains, where you went, what you did.
- [08:30]
Will Rogers
Yeah, well, I think, you know, I think we all hit points that are towards a rock bottom and it's generally the further to the bottom, the better. And the mountains has always, for some reason, just been a place that it sort of helps me feel sort of at peace. Like there's an element of like the rest of the world. When I'm out in the mountains, the rest of the world sort of can be shut off and I can just be with myself a bit more. And I took about a month. I was in a pretty bad way. And I took about a month there and I was just walking. Read a couple of key books. The Untethered Soul was one book, highly recommend that. And the Power of Now was another sort of book at that time. And I was just walking in the mountains every day and I was just sort of having a bit of a spiritual awakening type thing and just realizing, hang on a minute, like all these things that are making my life hard are my thoughts and my feelings around what is going on. And when I disconnect from them and focus on inner, you know, inner peace, inner feelings, whatever, then all of a sudden life feels different. Then I just sort of went back to life differently. But that was the first round. That's kind of like the introduction round. And then you. Then you hit the wall again at some point and then you get another round. But that was the sort of. So it was a pivotal moment. Yeah.
- [10:06]
Warwick Schiller
What was your experience with the first round? Because for me, I think the first round was like oh, that happened, but I didn't realize that, oh, there is not a. Just a first round, like, this is going to happen again and you're going to view the world differently again. And then you think, oh, that's it. And that's the way I'm going to. Because I viewed the world the same way for about 50 years and then I had something happen, and then like, now I view the world differently. Okay, next 50 years is going to be like that, but it wasn't six months. And then, oh, there's another one. And how did that land with you? Did you. Did you think, oh, that's it, and I'm going to view the world this way. Are you aware that there's more to this than meets the eye?
- [10:46]
Will Rogers
Yeah. Well, it's a good point, isn't it? Because like you say, it comes in waves kind of thing. And I think it's almost like, you know, you talked a lot about being shut down for many years. And I think I went through a very long survival period in my life where I got, you know, more numb, more shut down to cope with the life I was living. And once you start opening up, then what needs to be processed comes when it comes. And you just sort of realize like, you now are sort of more almost working in a natural cycle towards where you're meant to go. But the problem is you don't get to choose when the wave hits kind of thing. The wave comes when it comes. And I think for me, the further I've go along, the more I realize it's like, if I'm not relating to my life in the right way, the universe is starting to send the waves bigger. It's like, hang on, here it comes. Wake up. It's like, think about what you're doing out here. Otherwise you're going to get a couple on your head. And now when I get triggered or when things come to the surface, I'm getting more aware of as like, okay, feel it. What do I need to learn from this? Who can support me? What's going to help me? And. And then, then it sort of. It might be painful, it might be hard, but it passes more quickly. And then you, then you have these huge. And I'm sure you felt this, like these huge moments of like something magic happens to you, it comes to it just like an insight or a change, and you just like, whoa. This was the gift that processing, letting go, that whatever it was that was holding me back. And now it's sort of almost like if you get that much Pain, you get an equal opposite gift from it. You found this?
- [12:44]
Warwick Schiller
Yes. I mean, that's. That's how everything works, isn't it? You know, like, you talked about rock bottom before, and everybody thinks, oh, I've hit rock bottom or whatever. It's like, if you. Once you've hit rock bottom a few times, the next time you hit rock bottom, you're like, awesome. I have hit rock bottom. Some good stuff is coming.
- [13:02]
Will Rogers
Yeah, well, that's like. It takes a few rock bottoms to start thinking like that, though. I think you've hit enough now to know that that's where it gets good afterwards. But I think the first few, you're like, no, not again. I thought I was past this.
- [13:16]
Warwick Schiller
Not again. Yeah, but, you know, think. And not even just like rock bottom. We're probably talking rock bottom emotionally or whatever. But, you know, you think about in life, if you can look back in your life at something that at the time when it happened, whether you lost a job or you. Something happened, and at the time, it was the worst thing that ever happened. Ten years later, you're in a place that's amazing. You look back and you're like, I would not be in this place if that hadn't happened. That thing turned. Maybe turn a corner here, turn a corner there. Think about something different here, think about something different there. And, you know, one. And the reason I like having people like you and all the other guests I have on the podcast is to share things like that. Because someone might be hitting their first rock bottom.
- [14:05]
Will Rogers
Yeah, exactly.
- [14:07]
Warwick Schiller
And if you are hitting your first rock bottom or, you know, you've just lost your job or whatever, and, like, you feel like the. You got the weight of the world on your shoulders and it's never come out. Going to come out of it. If maybe you can take away from a conversation like this that, hey, there is a. There's a silver lining to this. It's not apparent to me yet, but what it'll do, it'll make you view that situation you're in. Maybe that a little, you know, a little more positivity, a little less negativity.
- [14:38]
Will Rogers
And a slight perspective. That can help. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because one of the things that I think is really tricky, and I'm curious to hear what your thoughts are with this, is when the external evidence in your life is looking bad and, you know, you're looking at the landscape of what's going on, and if you're analyzing it, you're like, this is a disaster. This. This is my Life is an absolute train wreck right now. I can't see anything good. There's problems everywhere, and I feel bad about the whole thing. And the weird thing is, and I use this example of, like, you go out in the paddock and you see your best horse hobbling across the field and you're like, no, no. I've got this big thing coming up. This I've been preparing all year. This is the most important thing of the year for me. It's my best horse. Any other horse but this horse. And your fear starts to project. This future outcome, like, the horse may never come good again. Whatever. Now, in that moment, the evidence is sending you off a cliff, but you might find out that two days later, the horse is completely fine. And if you were to be able to have the awareness in that moment that the evidence may have. The current evidence may have nothing to do with what next week would look like, then you may be able. Okay, let's see, let's see. It's not over yet, you know, and that's something that I find now. Like, when I'm helping people with horses and the evidence is just pulling them into the vortex. They're like, see the horses? Just as bad as before. I've done all this work and now it's just as bad. See, Warwick, I tried. Followed all the videos and look at it now. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. The current evidence. You're in a storm. The storm will pass, and once the storm has passed, you'll see where things are really at. But don't let the storm pull you into that vortex and lose your way. Is this something that you find a fair bit or.
- [16:39]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah, I mean, and whether it's with horses or with life or whatever, but, yeah, you get to where you create stories about what's happening that. That might not necessarily be happening. And, you know, on a totally different tangent, but exactly the same thing. I was reading a book one time, and it had to do with horses, but it was about horses or animals. I was saying that animals don't feel pain like we do. And I don't mean they don't feel pain that. Or they. Or they don't feel suffering like we do. And so you never been. You know, like, I grew up on a sheep farm. You might get in the paddock and there's you out there with a broken leg, and she's got her head down, she's eating the grass, dragging this leg around, you know, she's not. Oh, my goodness. Sort of thing. And, you know, I think it's maybe it's like a Buddhist philosophy about the difference between pain and suffering. And my son Tyler, that's over here somewhere, he was, got into rock climbing when he was in uni and for spring break. You know what, you've seen the American movies, haven't you guys? What happens on spring break? You party hard, you know what I mean? So Tyler on spring break, when he was at uni, he signed up for a week long rock climbing course. Okay. But he had a few times previously dislocated his shoulder. Okay, how he dislocated his shoulder the first time was like he went to, he went to Union, Southern California. He was riding a skateboard, carrying a surfboard under his arm, and a car cut him off and he had to swerve and he fell off the skateboard and landed on the surfboard, which hit him under the armpit and dislocated his shoulder. And apparently you're not supposed to let the paramedics put it back in. You've got to go to the hospital. But there's a bloke there that said, yeah, I can put it back in. Anyway, he put it back in and he put it back in wrong. And, but anyway, so Tyler goes to this rock climbing thing. First day of this rock climbing thing, he's, you know, on the side of this cliff and he kind of reaches up and gets a hold and pulls and his shoulder pops out a joint. So then they've got to lower him to the ground so he's got pain in his shoulder. Dislocated shoulder is not much fun as far as pain. There's that. But can you imagine on the way down, it's day one of spring break. I spent all this money. I could be with my friends having a good time, and I've come here and I've dislocated my shoulder and now my week is ruined. And, and, and, and, and that's suffering. There's the pain of the shoulder, but then there's the story we tell ourselves about all the things where if an animal has an injury, I have an injury, there's pain, okay? That's all it is. You know what I mean? And they don't necessarily.
- [19:15]
Will Rogers
Was there a silver lining in, in that story for Tyler or was there just, was there a suffering story behind. Because, because I'm just sort of thinking, why did the universe want it? Did it, did he want the shoulder to be fixed up properly?
- [19:28]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah, it got to where Tyler, when you had you popped your shoulder out rock climbing, did it come Back. Did you finish climbing the rest of that week? You got it back in and. Yeah.
- [19:38]
Will Rogers
Okay. So, yeah, your shoulder got. Ended up the initial problem. You found out, and then they put it back in properly the second time kind of thing. Or.
- [19:48]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah, we just told that story.
- [19:50]
Will Rogers
Yeah. Anyway.
- [19:51]
Warwick Schiller
But anyway, he ended up having to have surgery on it. Got to where he could. He could pop it out in bed. Like, he'd roll over in his sleep and his shoulder would dislocate. So he had surgery on it. Now it's good in it or repaired. Yeah. So it's. Yeah, that was totally off topic, what you're talking about.
- [20:06]
Will Rogers
But like you said, the. The compounding of suffering. We can. We can. We can make it go, you know, like, say one single event, a sequence of thoughts and feelings about that event can send us way. And I was pretty good at. I've been pretty good at doing that.
- [20:22]
Warwick Schiller
You know, I think we all are till we learn how to not to. And, you know, like I said before, that's why I like having conversations like this on the podcast, because there may be one person out there who is in the middle of it and thinks the world's coming to an end. And a conversation like this might help them have a little perspective, change, to look at things a bit differently. And that's kind of what I wanted to talk to you about here is. So you did a master class. Was that on Friday here?
- [20:52]
Will Rogers
Yeah.
- [20:53]
Warwick Schiller
So what's your masterclass look like? Do you have. How many. How many riders do you have?
- [20:56]
Will Rogers
So the. The initial setup was sort of what they typically do here, where they bring on a pair of riders, younger horses to older, showing the sort of progression. And this is not typically the format, you know, that I would sort of work in. If I'm doing a demonstration, it's a bit challenging because the horses don't. The horses and riders are not familiar with what I'm doing, and vice versa, I'm not familiar with what they're doing. So it's a little bit of an awkward introduction because as both of us work from a base of, like, we start from the beginning and build it up, it's not really like, come in, you know, later and just try and do some stuff. We're a bit more bring it back to purification of the process. But at the same time, what I really wanted to bring to this is just that awareness of how important it is that we focus on the right ingredients first. And I think when it comes to, if we want something from the horse, if we can't find it within ourselves, we need to start there. You know, if you can't find, if you want the horse to be soft, you don't try and get softness from the horse. If you don't find in yourself. And if we want the horse to feel good, if we can't feel good within ourself. And this is something that, you know, I've only really sort of got my head around and more experienced the power of it recently. But it's a bit one of those things. It's like a one way door. Once you feel how different it is when you change how you feel in relation to the horse, you just realize, what the hell have I been doing for the last 20 years? I've only been trying to fix something that I might be responsible for creating. Like if I create the horse to feel unsafe, concerned, frustrated, whatever, don't try and fix the horse, try and fix the person who's creating that. Now sometimes that takes a bit of awareness of what we might be doing that be creating that. But on a simple level, just trying to help the riders to recognize that if your body is not free and allowing the horse to move the way you want underneath, don't try and get the horse to do it because you haven't got the doors open to allow them. Same thing. If you're feeling stressed, don't try and calm the horse down because it's hypocritical. We need to sort of feel, okay, what can I bring to myself? If I can help myself, compose myself at the very least and then help the horse. This is much more helpful than sort of addressing the horse. Calm down, slow down, you know, And I think you've been a really great component to sharing that message. And so I think what I feel with working with horses, my sort of mission moving forward is helping people and horses to sort of work towards a oneness in the work. Because what I recognize is that horses actually love the feeling of your where you and the horse feel the same about the thing. So if like if we're, if we're in canter, if I want the horse to feel a certain feeling, I need to feel it in me first. Once the horse feels that and we're connected, then there's nothing. The horse is not trying to go away. It's almost like when you see birds fly together in formation. None of the birds are trying to, hey, I want to be independent and show that I'm faster. It's like they're in that flow. And I think there's something about Nature has that underlying oneness that we tend to interject with mental projections or things that then create this separation that if we just went in there and felt, hey, what do we need to work together here? Okay, let's find that. Now we're off and away, and now we don't have problems anymore because the horses happy to be here. I'm happy to be here. I'm not trying to be somewhere else. The horse is not trying to be somewhere else. And I think with dressage in particular, the horse needs to feel their body. If we're. If we're interfering too much, they can't feel themselves. So then we're creating an artificial balance that doesn't suit them or feel good. So then they're compensating. So it's sort of almost like me telling you how to run, and then you're running how I'm telling you to run, and then you feel terrible, and then I'm saying, yeah, but it's still not good enough. Worry. I'd like to see you more loose. And you're like, I'm the only one that can do that. You can't make me.
- [25:32]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. You know, you're talking about. I love what you alluded to a minute ago. Like with dressage, what you're trying to get happening here is not the person maybe telling the horse what to do, but the person going somewhere and the horse coming with him. And what came to mind is if you've ever seen mob of horses, you know, group of horses out in a paddock, that they're kind of an established sort of herd, Whether there's two of them or five of them or whatever, at some point in time, one of them will make a decision, I'm going to go for a drink at the water trough. And he doesn't actually tell the others, hey, we should go for a drink at the water trough. But there's something in him that changes. And he decides that, I'm going to go to the water trough. And they all kind of go, hey, let's all go. And they all go to the water trough with him. But there was no ask. There wasn't a, I'm going to round yous up and chase you to the water trough.
- [26:26]
Will Rogers
They just like get to the water trough now.
- [26:28]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. Like, they make a decision to go to the water trough and the other ones just blend in there. And to me, it sounds like you were trying to get that happening in your discipline of dressage, or the discipline of dressage that you're here to to educate on. And that's got nothing to do with dress ups.
- [26:49]
Will Rogers
Well, yeah, well, here's an interesting point because if you think about the history of a lot of disciplines, it starts off on a very, you know, human orientated perspective. It's like we're going to get this horse to perform movements that we can use in war and then we're going to perform movements to demonstrate how good we are, competent we are as a rider. And now we're going to impress people with our dancing horse, blah, blah, blah. That's kind of the baseline where it's come from. But when you think about it, it's like if something's going to. If there's going to be evolution, it's going to have to go in a good direction. Otherwise it makes no sense. Everything dies. That makes no sense.
- [27:29]
Warwick Schiller
In the end, if it's not successful, it doesn't continue. Yeah.
- [27:33]
Will Rogers
So the thing, what I feel is like, this is where I'm kind of quietly very excited about or inspired by, because I sort of think what could be more admirable than a human working with a horse to a level where you've got this 600, 700 kilo, incredible athlete, highly intelligent, sensitive animal, working together in harmony to where it's, there's a level of oneness, is if that's not just good for a sport, if that's not good for humanity, as a sort of representation of how we might be better to live our lives, how we might be better to sort of focus in which direction. Like, to me that seems like the most relevant equestrian sport that could ever exist. But if you go the other way, and it's like, we need to get these horses to do these things so that we win these ribbons and it's got nothing to do with how the horse feels or if it looks like, or if it feels that we're working together, that's going to die. I'm sorry, like at a certain point they're going to say enough of that. We're tired of saying that by. So I feel that dressage done well is so important because, like, if it's done well, the horse can physically develop to levels that it would never. In nature, you know, in nature a horse gets to a certain point and then just slowly the compensation pattern is going to decline. You know, some of the best horses, the best ridden horses, they can be phenomenal athletes up until their 20s, late 20s, so they have a much better physical existence. And same with a healthy person. You know, like, it's like if we're out just hunting. Hunting food and then getting stiff and crippled at a certain point, not taking care of our bodies. We're not going to. Going to last long. And the quality of our life at a certain point is going to fall off a cliff. If we take care of ourselves and build ourselves up and, you know, you know, take care of ourselves, like something that's a valuable investment. And I think that's. That's the big thing because, like, I'm not really that interested in dressage as it is anymore because I feel that until the evolution is moving more and more in the right direction, it's like any discipline. So what. So what, you can get your horse to do things. What. What's the point? What's the meaning behind that? You know, for me, you know, and.
- [29:52]
Warwick Schiller
I'm glad you said for me.
- [29:53]
Will Rogers
Yeah, for me, you know. Yeah.
- [29:55]
Warwick Schiller
So. So I. What I think Will's not saying here is so and so is doing it wrong. It's like where you are in the way you view the world right now. And I love the fact you two use the term anymore. There was a point in time where that was important to you, and I want to. I want to ask you a little bit about that, but I'm going to tell a little bit story about me first was that the last time I competed in reigning was at the World of question games in 2018. And leading up to that World of Question Games, we had. My wife and I both had a mindset coach friend of ours from New Zealand named Jane Pike. You've met Jane. She's amazing. And in that journey of her mentally preparing us for the World of Question Game, something happened to where I came to the realization that the only reason I'd ever been competing was for external validation. Like, so the other horse trainers think I'm cool. You know, like, it was. It was about if I win something, someone will feel like I'm. Someone will feel something towards me that make me feel like I'm worthy. And somewhere during that journey that year, I came to the realization that I don't need to compete anymore to. To feel I'm enough without having to win something. And I. And I. Yeah, I. I kind of haven't really competed since because I don't. Yeah. And have you had that?
- [31:31]
Will Rogers
Yeah, but I just like to. Yeah. And it's good. You. You're right. That's where I'm at kind of thing. But what I would say, I've got nothing against competition. I think it's a great. A great thing from the aspect of. It's giving people something, parameters that they have to work towards. And it's important. You know, if we're just going off out in the wilderness, there's no clarity or guidance. What I would just say is, like you say, I feel that everyone, when you get to the end of the rainbow, if you reach the end of the rainbow, if you have some sort of success, you reach a milestone, you realize that there isn't the pot of gold at that point. The pot of gold has to be felt along the way, along the journey. And all the milestones I've hit, I've been proud of myself. I've felt good about accomplishing those things, but I didn't feel any different. And the only thing that's helped me feel different is how I'm working, how I'm relating with the horse. And I think that then you can be. You can have the best day of your life in a simple thing or a big thing, but it's the same. But I think, yeah, that, that for me. So I think there's nothing wrong with competing. And I'm. I. I'm not against it at all. But it's like if you're competing for the only purpose of getting the validation at the end, you'll. You'll soon realize once you've won enough, you realize it's not doing it. It's not getting me there. It's. It's there. It's bottomless pit. And what's.
- [33:00]
Warwick Schiller
What's that saying? You can never get enough of something and it almost works.
- [33:06]
Will Rogers
Yeah, that's right. That's right.
- [33:08]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. And when I said I don't compete more because I was competing for. I'm not going to say it was the wrong reason, but there was a.
- [33:15]
Will Rogers
It was a need that there was.
- [33:16]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah, there was a. So I'm not saying everybody competing is for the wrong reason.
- [33:21]
Will Rogers
No, not at all.
- [33:22]
Warwick Schiller
But for me personally, that's. That's what was going on there. And I kind of want to digress a little bit from there.
- [33:28]
Will Rogers
Yeah. Yeah, that's good.
- [33:30]
Warwick Schiller
Because you left Australia to go overseas to be a horse trainer. What year?
- [33:37]
Will Rogers
I think it was 2009 or 2008. Something like that.
- [33:40]
Warwick Schiller
Will went to America to become a cutting horse trainer and has returned here to Ecuatana as the star presenter, as a dressage writer.
- [33:57]
Will Rogers
It's a bit of a twist.
- [33:58]
Warwick Schiller
That is a plot twist that.
- [34:01]
Will Rogers
Yeah.
- [34:02]
Warwick Schiller
You know, I had Brett Pabri on the podcast the other day, and, you know, Brett started out as a bronc Rider and ended up as a dressage rider. Now we've got Will. He started out as a. His dream was to be a cutting horse trainer and he ends up coming back to Australia. But, you know, you've never been to Aquitana before, have you? So he left. Left Australia. Wouldn't be a big time cutting Australian, comes back to Australia here and he's now dressage trainer. Tell us a little bit about that, that journey there.
- [34:28]
Will Rogers
Yeah, well, that's, that's a funny thing because, like coming here and being the sort of star presenter of the dress, it's a bit surreal because you're sort of thinking, is this, is this a joke or is this, is this. Are they having an off year? Were they. Did they mis. Select? Because I know, like, you know, Carl and some of the riders that have won everything, the greatest dressage riders and trainers ever and everything, and then me. What, I mean, it doesn't quite compute, but I feel like the universe has its timing and the timing is down. And after what sort of happened in the dressage world this year and stuff, like, I feel like, yeah, the timing is right. And for me, just like you, you know, I think it's trying to bring the messages that will help the future. It's not, it's not about now or what's happened in the past. It's like, what can we bring to the future? And that's where, like, my good friend Tristan, which you obviously good mates with, he and I have always been like, thinking about what's 10 years ahead, where's it going, where do we need to go? And that's what I think is difficult in dressage and a lot of these competitive sports is the guys at the top. It's hard to be at the top. It's dangerous to innovate because if you innovate, you might make a wrong turn and now you're losing and now your sponsors drop you and now all the horses drop away. So it's very hard for these top guys to change. And my experience with a lot of the best people I've met, they're very afraid of changing. So it's an element of someone. Some of us might need to come in and sort of try and get in the lab and work on things and bring some new information and then hope that the younger up and coming people who have not quite reached the top echelon, that they're scared to move much, that they bring that, hey, you know, I'm bringing my attunement into my riding and my work And I'm the connection and I'm going to do this and I'm going to start the horse like this and I'm going to take my time and I'm going to make sure that I give the horse good experiences in the first competitions. Because I've got to think about if I'm going to ride in the Olympics, I need to set my horse's confidence up for that and so on. And I think this is where it will go. And I see, you know, I'm very fortunate to have some really high quality young people coming to me, wanting to work with me and learn. And that's where I feel it's. There's a lot of positive things. So. Yeah, it's interesting.
- [37:01]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah, I, I love the way you alluded to. Like you said, you know, the universe has. So I don't know you. If you're a second choice, you know, like, maybe Equitana, like we're going to.
- [37:11]
Will Rogers
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:12]
Warwick Schiller
Some.
- [37:12]
Will Rogers
Or a fourth choice, maybe.
- [37:14]
Warwick Schiller
What doesn't. It doesn't matter. It might be a fourth choice. And think about that. There's a dressage superstar that Ecuatana may have won. I don't know if this is the story, but. But they weren't available. And then we're going to get her second choice and the universe said, no, we're going to give them something else to do. And then the third guy, we're going to break his foot.
- [37:33]
Will Rogers
Yeah.
- [37:33]
Warwick Schiller
So he can't go because we want Will. Universe wants Will to come here and share maybe a little bit different message that they would have shared. Because if you've been around a discipline for long enough and studied all the winners at the top, you've probably heard it before, you know, you know, you're not going to hear something totally out of the box. It's like it's going to be, it's going to. It's like when I was, you know, learned to train horses and stuff for the longest time, as I got better and better, I was always looking for more information, but it was more information in a certain direction and it was more technical training stuff. And then I, you know, if you know my story, I got to a point where I had a horse that I could not. And there wasn't much going wrong, but I could not change that. I couldn't train that one thing that I wanted to fix training. And the more I consulted all sorts of people and training wasn't the answer. And I'm like, I, I stepped away. I'm like, I don't know I'm going to try to fix it. And it turned out that this connection, this attunement thing was the answer. But yeah, wasn't more training, you know.
- [38:45]
Will Rogers
That that just brings a really good point to mind. And I think one of the things that sort of, that's sort of being become really big in my awareness now is when. And it's not, not in a judgment way, but in more an observation way when I see someone riding their horse and I think to myself, if that was me, like, or you know, or if I wanted to really help that person to really go to their potential, what would really be required? And the interesting thing is, and this is why I think we miss a lot, is like we all need the technique, we all need the understanding, the process. That's just part and parcel. But the thing is the filter in which all that flows through is the most powerful thing. Like when I look at the best writers in the world and some of them I know fairly well, and when you talk with them, you hear their belief system, how they think and feel moment to moment through a test, how they think and feel around their horse when they're training and so on, you start to notice it's like this person is a winner not because of their technique, they're a winner because of how they think and feel around themselves and their horse and what they're doing. And the thing is with that is if you think about like just the influence of that on your writing, imagine you, and you know this, imagine you doubt yourself immediately. Your body is going to create physical patterns of doubt which will create physical patterns of doubt in the horse. So how can your horse be their best if that is rippling through now? How do you change that? You know, you've got to go deep, you've got to go to the clear place where you can start from and you've got to be able to get outside of that internal programming, the mental programming and the physical programming and unprogram yourself and reprogram. And this is not impossible. And it, and it's something, but you need to go there. So, for example, like I've, when I'm riding, I've developed some bad habits that I've been taught about using the hand a little bit backwards towards, you know, one hand will take the rein and bring it back towards a little bit and then of course you create a blockage in the horse's neck and then that goes through the body. Now somewhere along the line, my balance might have got a little bit off and Then I compensate, sorry, compensated with using my hand. So that's a programming thing. So to get outside that programming, I've got to go into trusting myself, feeling my body, getting my balance, getting the softness and bringing awareness to the one place that. So you see how that's all internal first, then physical. Most people say, put your left hand forward, put your left hand forward. It's like, what's the program that's pulling the left hand back? That's what you got to get to. And so if you, if you don't trust yourself in what you're doing, that's all you need to focus on. If you focus on trusting yourself, that's the highest priority. If, if you're overthinking, you know, anything, the opposite of that is where you need to be looking. And I think that's where I see some people with so much talent and I think that they're still looking for something outside. They think that it's this trainer will help me it or this. If they just look within and started there, they might just up and away. And that's kind of probably one of the biggest things I've noticed in myself. My work with horses just gone to another level when I went inside. And I've seen it with you and I've seen it with other people and that's probably what fires me up the most because I just, I want to see people find that magic in themselves and run with it and so that you can sort of see them shine. Same with the horse. I hate seeing a horse holding together. I love seeing that open, soft. I'm here, you know.
- [42:43]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. And that's, I think that's the magic of horses is I think if someone is involved with horses for long enough and they keep trying to get better, whether it's competition or just, you know, get along with their horse better at some point in time, if you stick there long enough, you get to the point where it becomes an inside job. And when it becomes an inside job, that doesn't change your relationship with your horse. It changes your relationship with your husband, your wife, your kids, your co worker, your boss, the checkout check at the supermarket. It changes the. Your relationship with everybody you come in contact with and you're planting a seed in them to, like here, there's lots of, like here at Ekwatana. There's lots of places that the general public can't go back into where the horses. You've got to have a pass around your neck to get into certain places. And some passes will get you Some places won't get you other places. And there's a guy on the gate, and he's sitting there, you know, whatever, on his phone. And when you walk by, if he sees you coming with the pass, he doesn't even look up. I make sure every time I go through one of those gates, like, hey, how's your day going? And they kind of like, yeah, good. Like, you cold? You're warm enough for Cold War, you know, like, hide out here, whatever.
- [43:59]
Will Rogers
Warwick goes over and looks deeply into their eyes and, how are you?
- [44:04]
Warwick Schiller
And I. And I. And I do. And I realized this morning I hadn't even been thinking about it. I realized this morning, oh, I've been doing that. And I didn't realize I do. It's just. I wouldn't have done that in the past. Like, he's just the gate guy. I just, you know. You know, as long as he doesn't try to stop me, we're good. And I just realized this. Like, I realized that every one of these people that might feel a little bit unseen, like, people just walk past them like they're not even there. I realized this morning I've been doing that. And when did I start doing that? And then it comes from, you know, horses taught me how to interact with people, but it comes from actually seeing those horses. And what I mean by seeing a horse is seeing the horse without projecting an image or a. An assumption or whatever about what they should and shouldn't be. I don't see an Arabian. I don't see. I.
- [45:10]
Will Rogers
You see who they are.
- [45:11]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah.
- [45:12]
Will Rogers
Well, one thing. Is it all right if I give you a compliment? You're okay with that?
- [45:17]
Warwick Schiller
Jane pike has told me how to get better accepting Naga. You can do it. Hit me.
- [45:21]
Will Rogers
So I think one of the things that I appreciate and admire about you a lot, and I think it's also something that is the key. One of the big keys to his success is you champion everyone. You know, you champion everyone around you, and that gives them sort of space to shine, and the universe rewards you back, you know, and sort of sends a lot of things your way and opportunities, because it's sort of like that's how the universe sort of seems to work. And I think that's something that I noticed, like, with the podcast summit. You know, every guest feels like they're the number one guest on the podcast, and none of them are like, oh, yeah, they're all right. But this, you know, I think that's such a key. And in relation to that, I feel like this Lady I work with a lot, Marion, she tells me, and it's an interesting point, just exactly on what you were just saying before. But to put a bit of a positive spin on it, she said, imagine that the horse you're working with, say, for example, you might view it like, oh, the horse is a bit stiff and a bit old and a bit lame and a bit whatever. And you imagine that they're the best horse you've ever worked with, and they feel from you that you feel that they're the best horse in the world. And you just realize you're putting that sort of water and nutrients on something. You're cooking a different, you know, cooking with a different sort of power then. And one of the things that I realized is, like, how much an animal or a person feels. You believe in them, is a powerful force. And they can feel it both ways. They can feel when you start to teeter towards. I don't know about this horse or this person or the other way. And I think that's where, like, I have a horse in my team. She's had a lot of health problems, and I've sort of. She's not one of the stars, unfortunately. So I've sort of put her as like a filler a little bit. And she knows she's a filler. She puts off the vibes like she's a filler. And before this recent trip I did to Italy with my horses, I was working with her, and she. Marion, this lady, she said to me, treat her like she's the best horse you've got. And the funny thing is, as soon as I started doing that, she started to shine more. And despite the health problems, despite whatever she's got going on. And it just made me realize, like, you don't. If you treat someone or something, a horse or whatever, from what you think of them, like, you're saying the judgment thing, you think they're this, and you treat them like that. That's what they become or worse. And if you reverse that or switch that around. Yeah.
- [47:57]
Warwick Schiller
My guess. Is Marion a horse person.
- [48:01]
Will Rogers
Well, she's a. She's a very special person, a horse person, but with a person with incredible feel.
- [48:09]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah, it's that. It's like. Yeah. Once you understand that the reality you encounter, you control your reality by how you view what's going on. And if you. You know, there's a. There's a great story I heard a couple of years ago. I think there's a video on Facebook, Instagram, whatever, and it was this guy and he'd been in some of the armed forces. I don't know if they're American, British, probably American, I think, but he was a Marine, I think, and he went to Afghanistan and they were all Iraq, I forget which one of those Middle Eastern countries. But their job was to take a group of soldiers, go into a village, establish a compound in the village, and then they were going to patrol the village, okay? And they were looking for Taliban members is what they were doing. And so they get to the village and they drive down the road in the, to the, in the village in their Humvees, okay? And as they drive down through this village, all these old, I think it was Iraqi men come out and watch them drive by. And as they do, they hold their hand up like this. So if you listeners at home kind of make a fist in front of you with your fingernails facing towards you, but lift your middle finger up so it's not extended completely, but it sticks up a bit. You. And as they drove down the street, these old men did that as they went by. And this soldier was saying, and I'm thinking, I'm here risking my life to make your life better. And you've given me that. And so they were supposed to establish a compound, then find a translator, you know, find about a village from the translator and then go out, start patrolling. So it took him a few days to establish a compound, find a translator, whatever. And this guy's got this perception that this is what the villagers think of him. And so they get a translator and they're about to go out on their first patrol and the translator looks at him and makes that same symbol to him, holds his fist up with that middle finger halfway up like that, and he says to them, be gentle. And then he realized that that symbol that those old Iraqi man did as these soldiers came through their village was not, we hate you, get lost, up yours. It was, we welcome you, but please be gentle with us. And can you imagine the interactions that he would have had with people, how he would have interacted with those people if he perceived they didn't want him there? And then the difference of his interactions with those same people, when he understood that they welcomed him, but they were saying, please be gentle with us?
- [50:54]
Will Rogers
No, that's powerful because. And that's, I think the biggest thing with horses isn't it when we perceive the horse's behavior in the wrong way, just like that, and we start judging them and ah, this horse and ah, you know, it's like we're creating this terrible outcome just off that judgment, that. That thought.
- [51:18]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. There's an energetic signature. Last night, I was talking to a girl named Hannah who's presenting here, and she does a lot of Liberty stuff, does a lot of work with wild horses. Amazing horsewoman. And she'd tell me last night she'd written a book on liberty, and it said how to do all the things. And then she got to realize. She said, I could be at a clinic and I could do the things with a horse, and the hors responded perfectly, and I could have the owner do the things perfectly, and the horse responded totally differently. And then she realized it's like there's more to it than what you're doing on the outside. And I think the more you get into it, it's like, oh, the stuff you're doing on the outside is the smallest part of it. You know, it's the energy and intention with which you do things that creates different outcomes.
- [52:06]
Will Rogers
Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I think intuitive. Intuitively, we all understand this perfectly. When we're having a conversation and you feel something's off, like, Warwick's not really wanting me here to talk, it almost feels like he doesn't want me here. You know, obviously, not that I don't feel that, but if I did, it wouldn't matter what you said. Oh, Will, wonderful to have you here. Whatever. Like, it's just that sort of thing where what we feel is the most accurate thing. So talking about it, trying to show performative actions is not what intuitively any being is looking for. They're looking for the feeling. This feels sincere, the signature of these actions, the tone, the. The intention is pure or clear or fair or appropriate. Yeah.
- [52:56]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. And, yeah, that's. That's. That's, you know, one of the reasons I ask certain questions on the podcast, to try to lead people to express that, because sometimes, you know, it might be easy to not talk about that, but I feel like people have, you know, got techniques up the yin yang sort of thing, you know, like, at some point in time, you don't need more techniques, because as we realize. I'm sorry, I continue that story. She hasn't published the book yet. She had the book written like, this is how. This is how to do Amazing Liberty. And then she realized, I can't stop there, because that's how. That's how I do Amazing Liberty on the outside. But then I've got to try to somehow quantify the unquantifiable on the inside of you. Your energy and your intention and Your thoughts. And you mentioned something about pouring water before. And then you said, when you're dealing with a, you know, sentient being, like a person or a horse. But you made the pouring analogy. You know, there's been experiments done with plants to where you say nice things to this plant and nasty things to this plant, and the nasty ones wither and die and the other ones flourish and they get the same nutrients, they're potted in the same soil, they're from the same seeds. And when you understand that, then you start to interact with the world differently.
- [54:14]
Will Rogers
Well, and that's the most beautiful part, isn't it? Like, it really is. Like, you just. You just kind of realize. And look, it's not easy to do. Sometimes we can just. We can just slip in. Ah, look at this. Like, what's he bloody parking over here for? Typical. You know, and you just. You just off and away. But one thing that I've been experiencing a bit more recently, like, when you get a horse really open and connected, they feel everything much more. Just like when we get like that. And sometimes with the people working with me, if I feel that they're going through some internal trouble and they're not dealing with it very well, I sort of say, look, I don't want you to walk the horse if you like that, because the horse is going to have to close off to you because they, you know, you can't. Like, I can't go for a walk with you and be wishing I was not walking with Warwick without it affecting you.
- [55:08]
Warwick Schiller
Right.
- [55:09]
Will Rogers
You know, so it's better we don't go for a walk. Or it would be better if I like, hey, Warwick, I've got some troubles right now. I want to walk. I want to go for a walk with you, but do you mind if I have a bit of time to accept or let go of this frustration? It's not your fault. But I just want to be honest with you. This is what's going on with me so that there's not this separation between us kind of thing.
- [55:29]
Warwick Schiller
I paid a lot of money to have a marriage counselor tell us exactly the same thing. You know, if you're triggered in the middle of an argument, kind of go, okay, I would like to continue this conversation at some point in time, but right now I'm not in a place place for what you're saying to land well. And it's not what you're saying, it's how it's landing. And can we continue this conversation some other time? So, you know, that's Couples therapy. You were just talking about you and I gone for a walk. We're talking about us and our horses. You know, the thing I'm really trying to get people to understand on the podcast, when I do clinics and whatever is horses and life's the same thing. Horses are just teaching us about how to be better humans.
- [56:09]
Will Rogers
Yeah.
- [56:10]
Warwick Schiller
Not, you know, this. It's. It is about horses, but it's not.
- [56:14]
Will Rogers
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Like, I feel the. The horse represents life to me and it's like I'm relating with the horse, but it's the same as life. It's like the horse will give me accurate feedback of, like, how I'm relating to it. If that feedback is not favorable, then it's like more work to be done, more searching. If the. If it's coming back favorable is like, okay, something. Something could be good here. I need to make a mental note of what I'm bringing here. That's helping. And yeah, I think that's one of.
- [56:49]
Warwick Schiller
The great things about horses is people will put on a false front to you to make you feel better or feel worse or whatever. Whatever. A horse hair of the horse interacts with you. It's the truth.
- [57:01]
Will Rogers
Yeah.
- [57:01]
Warwick Schiller
You know, and at. Sometimes it can be hard to swallow.
- [57:03]
Will Rogers
The truth, but it's like, no, my horse is a liar.
- [57:10]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. It's like all your horses, they tell mine's a lie.
- [57:14]
Will Rogers
Compulsive liar. Couldn't be more wrong.
- [57:16]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah.
- [57:17]
Will Rogers
Yeah.
- [57:17]
Warwick Schiller
Always. Yes. And the thing about is, is once, like someone can tell you something, you think, oh, that's your opinion. But when a horse tells you something, get, get ready.
- [57:28]
Will Rogers
It's about to get real.
- [57:29]
Warwick Schiller
Yes. And. But then you, you, I think once you get to the point to where you're actually looking for honest feedback and I want to know what's going on here, then you don't reject it. You're like, yeah, my horse is going to tell me the truth.
- [57:45]
Will Rogers
Well, it's interesting. Mutual friend of ours, Emily Kai's daughter, she said to me at the last summit there about. She was talking about horses. And we all sort of probably subliminally know this, but horses don't carry judgment towards us. So let's just say I lose my call and be very harsh with my horse and be. Make a lot of mistakes. The horse does not judge us for those actions. They might not want it to happen again, but they're willing to give us an opportunity to, you know, because if I say, you know what, Warwick? That thing you said to me, I'm never going to forgive you for that. I don't care what you do to make it up for me. I'm not letting it go. This is a difficult deal, but if you hurt me and I go, Look, Warwick, I'm not carrying judgment. I don't want it to happen again. But if you show me that you're willing to change, I'll join you. And I think that's what horses are doing for us without us knowing, you know?
- [58:42]
Warwick Schiller
Yeah. And you know, Emily K'sdaughter, that's another whole rabbit hole that you have to go down. If anybody hasn't listened to the episode I had on the podcast with Emily, it's episode number 115 and we had to have 114 previous episodes to get people ready to take in what she said and what. And that woman is for me is probably most that she has a way of looking at the world that is just profound. And what I am so excited about is here we are, Equitana, the dressage. What does your past say again? I keep forgetting what you are.
- [59:15]
Will Rogers
Star presenter.
- [59:16]
Warwick Schiller
Star presenter. The dressage star presenter. Sometime after he goes home from here, he's going to Sweden to hang out with Emily K's daughter. And what she does is what she calls interspecies, non hierarchical empathic communication.
- [59:32]
Will Rogers
It's a bit of a stretch, isn't it?
- [59:34]
Warwick Schiller
This dude's going there. And so it's kind of like I am hopeful for the world now when the star presenter of the dressage at Ecuatan is going to do that. Like, it's like all the worlds are colliding and I. Well, I think you are going to be a game changer. You are going to. You're introducing some people to some ideas that may not, may not have had access to B before. And I just commend you on coming here and there's probably a lot of expectation of you just to be the dressage guy and you're sharing some ideas I think are going to really help change people's minds and that'll help change the world. So I really thank you for that.
- [60:10]
Will Rogers
Thanks, mate. And I feel like you've propped the ball up and given me the opportunity to take it a little further and I thank you for that too.
- [60:22]
Warwick Schiller
Thanks, mate. So we're going to wrap up here, but before we do, can you tell these guys here and the listeners at home, how do they find Will Rogers? You've got some socials. Yeah.
- [60:30]
Will Rogers
So Will Rogers Horses is my main social media handle. And then I have an online training platform, Will Rogers Approach. You can find the link there. And it has all my process and training and everything. And. Yeah, look, I just, I just want to say that I just hope all of you are inspired to go down this path and just recognize you're much more important and valuable in the world than you might always think and also to your horses. And like, I think I've made a lot of mistakes along the way to get to this point and I feel it's my responsibility to, to help for horses, for people to maybe not need to make as many mistakes as I've made to get there, you know.
- [61:14]
Warwick Schiller
Awesome. Great way to finish up. Thanks so much for joining me and you guys at home. Thanks for joining us and we'll catch you on the next episode of the Journey on Podcast.
- [61:24]
Thanks for being a part of the Journey on Podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warwick has over 850 full length training videos on his online video library@videos.warwickshiller.com Be sure to follow Warwick on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram to see his latest training advice and insights.