The Journey with Morgan DeBaun: Becoming a Better Leader with Michael Bungay Stanier
Release Date: December 10, 2024

Introduction

In this insightful episode of The Journey with Morgan DeBaun, Morgan sits down with Michael Bungay Stanier, the acclaimed author of The Coaching Habit, to explore the depths of effective leadership. Their conversation delves into personal growth, management styles, and the art of fostering meaningful workplace relationships.

Personal Leadership Journeys

Morgan begins by sharing her entrepreneurial journey, reflecting on her early days as the founder of Blavity Inc. She candidly admits, “[00:00]... I didn't totally think through what would be required of me as a founder if this thing was successful, related to managing large groups of people.”

Michael echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the inherent challenges of leadership. He remarks, “[00:46]... if you're able to think everything through as a founder, you stop being a founder,” highlighting the optimistic perseverance that drives entrepreneurs.

Management Styles and Coaching

The discussion transitions to various management styles, referencing Daniel Goleman’s research on emotional intelligence and leadership. Michael outlines six distinct leadership styles, noting that “[04:55]... one of them is a directive style... another is a democratic style... [and] coaching being more coach-like.”

He explains why he chose to focus on the coaching style: “... it really adds to not just the culture, but adds to the bottom line... it’s the least utilized because it feels a bit weird and a bit woo woo.”

Morgan shares her transformative experience with Michael’s book, stating, “[01:40]... Michael's book was so helpful for me because it really gave me an anchor to say, look, you don't need to micromanage people.”

Strategies for Managing Small Teams

Morgan discusses the complexities of scaling a business, particularly when transitioning from freelancers to full-time employees. She asks, “[07:10]... how do you recommend that the leader really start to improve these types of skills in terms of leading groups and managing teams?”

Michael responds by addressing the founder’s dilemma of balancing control with empowerment, emphasizing the need to set others up for success without micromanaging.

Handling Underperforming Team Members

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on managing team dynamics, specifically dealing with a “B player” in a team of “A players.” Morgan poses the scenario: “[10:36]... how do you engage with the B player and encourage someone to want to be an A if they're potentially absolutely fine being a B?”

Michael outlines a structured approach, incorporating feedback frameworks rooted in nonviolent communication. He advises starting with “resetting expectations” and provides a step-by-step method to navigate such conversations effectively.

Communication and Feedback Framework

Michael introduces a practical framework for delivering feedback, breaking it down into four elements: data, feelings, judgments, and wants/needs. He explains, “[11:52]... the data are the facts... feelings are how you feel about the situation... judgments are your assessments... and wants and needs are your requests.”

This method ensures that feedback is constructive and focused on actionable outcomes rather than personal criticism.

Importance of Self-Management in Leadership

Morgan emphasizes the necessity of self-regulation when engaging in challenging conversations. She states, “[18:32]... it's our responsibility to manage ourselves first, because that's 100% in my control.”

Michael reinforces this by demonstrating a coaching moment within the podcast, asking Morgan reflective questions that prompt her to distill the conversation’s key takeaways.

Active Listening and Slow Conversations

Both hosts agree on the value of active listening and slowing down conversations to foster genuine dialogue. Morgan notes, “[21:05]... you need to listen more than you speak,” highlighting the difficulty many leaders face in prioritizing listening over speaking.

Michael’s New Work: Building Working Relationships

Shifting focus, Michael introduces his latest book, How to Work with Almost Anybody. He outlines the core principles of building effective working relationships, termed as BPR (Best Possible Relationships), which are:

• Safe: Psychological safety where team members can express themselves freely.
• Vital: Enabling risk-taking and open communication.
• Repairable: The ability to mend relationships when conflicts arise.

He emphasizes, “[22:11]... our working relationships are really, really drive our happiness and our success.”

Keystone Conversations and BPR Principles

Michael discusses the concept of keystone conversations—proactive discussions about how to work together effectively. He presents five key questions that form the foundation of these conversations, aimed at understanding each other’s strengths and preferences to enhance collaboration.

Morgan shares her approach to keystone conversations, illustrating how setting clear objectives and understanding mutual goals can lead to more productive and harmonious working relationships.

Publishing Insights and Book Success

The conversation turns to Michael’s publishing journey, highlighting the challenges and triumphs of bringing The Coaching Habit to a wide audience. He contrasts self-publishing, traditional publishing, and hybrid publishing models, ultimately finding success through a hybrid approach with Page Two Publishers. Michael attributes the book’s widespread acclaim to “word of mouth” and the strategic support from his network.

Morgan’s Upcoming Book

Morgan reveals her upcoming book, Rewrite Your Rules, aimed at ambitious individuals in their late 20s to early 30s who seek to redefine success beyond traditional societal metrics. She explains, “[46:25]... it's about helping people be able to redefine for themselves what success actually is. It’s not Necessarily about how much money you have in your bank account, but it's about how you feel every day.”

Conclusion and How to Connect

As the episode wraps up, Michael provides listeners with resources to connect further, directing them to his website MBS Works for additional materials and free resources. Morgan encourages listeners to subscribe to her YouTube channel and join her Work Smart community for ongoing support and engagement.

Notable Quotes:

• Michael Bungay Stanier: “... it really adds to not just the culture, but adds to the bottom line.” ([04:55])
• Morgan DeBaun: “... I couldn’t afford an executive coach at the time, so I was really drinking it.” ([01:40])
• Michael Bungay Stanier: “... coaching is being trained in organizations at the moment because the people are just like, it's like life coaching, but you just do it with people in your organization.” ([04:38])
• Morgan DeBaun: “... it's our responsibility to manage ourselves first, because that's 100% in my control.” ([18:32])

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a treasure trove of insights for current and aspiring leaders. By blending personal anecdotes with practical frameworks, Morgan and Michael provide listeners with actionable strategies to enhance their leadership skills, foster effective teams, and build meaningful professional relationships.

For those seeking to elevate their leadership journey, this conversation is an invaluable resource, encapsulating the essence of what it means to lead with empathy, clarity, and intentionality.

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