Paige Turner on Parenthood, Modern Motherhood, and Equitable Partnerships

Summary

Podcast Summary: Paige Turner on Parenthood, Modern Motherhood, and Equitable Partnerships

Podcast Information

• Title: The Journey with Morgan DeBaun
• Host: Morgan DeBaun, Founder & CEO of Blavity Inc.
• Episode: Paige Turner on Parenthood, Modern Motherhood, and Equitable Partnerships
• Release Date: January 14, 2025
• Description: In this episode, host Morgan DeBaun engages in an enlightening conversation with Paige Turner, a TikTok influencer and mother of four, discussing the complexities of modern parenthood, the mental load carried by parents—especially mothers—and the importance of equitable partnerships in raising children.

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1. Introduction

Morgan DeBaun welcomes Paige Turner to The Journey podcast, expressing her admiration for Paige's content on TikTok, particularly how Paige's approach has inspired her to foster greater partnership with her partner, Josh, in parenting duties.

Notable Quote:

Morgan DeBaun [00:00]: "...she's inspired me many times to let my partner, you all know who my partner is, Josh, do things."

2. Guest Background

Paige Turner shares her professional journey, highlighting her transition from operations roles in e-commerce startups to becoming a prominent content creator on TikTok and Instagram. She discusses how becoming a parent radicalized her perspective on societal expectations placed on women.

Notable Quote:

Paige Turner [01:54]: "Becoming a working parent really radicalized me... opened my eyes to all of the things, all the systems, all the expectations that we place on women."

3. Parenthood and Gender Roles

The conversation delves into traditional gender roles in parenting, with Morgan expressing feelings of guilt over not taking on roles traditionally expected of mothers, such as bath time routines. Paige emphasizes the importance of equity in parenting responsibilities.

Notable Quote:

Paige Turner [04:43]: "...childcare is a shared family expense. It is not something that is the burden of a woman to accommodate for."

4. The Mental Load

Paige introduces the concept of the "mental load," describing it as the ongoing checklist of tasks and responsibilities that parents, particularly mothers, manage mentally. She explains how this invisible labor contributes to feelings of overwhelm and resentment.

Notable Quote:

Paige Turner [12:22]: "The mental load... is the running checklist in your brain... it's remembering which kid likes cheddar cheese versus which likes mozzarella."

5. Navigating Equitable Partnerships

The discussion highlights strategies for fostering equitable partnerships in parenting. Paige advises couples to articulate their feelings, make invisible labor visible, and utilize tools like shared calendars and to-do lists to distribute responsibilities fairly.

Notable Quote:

Paige Turner [05:08]: "Make that invisible labor, that mental load visible in whatever way that works for you and your family."

6. The Trad Wife Phenomenon

Morgan and Paige explore the resurgence of the "trad wife" movement on social media, questioning its portrayal versus the reality. Paige critiques the idealized representation, noting that traditional roles often ignore the financial and emotional burdens they impose on women.

Notable Quote:

Paige Turner [30:46]: "The actual reality of it is probably pretty difficult to navigate... stay at home moms... it's still incredibly exhausting. It's still a ton of work."

7. Advocacy and Political Climate

Paige emphasizes the importance of using social media as a tool for change and encourages having politically and socially informed conversations with those around us. She stresses the need to advocate for policies that support families, such as affordable childcare and paid parental leave.

Notable Quote:

Paige Turner [40:23]: "Having these conversations... from a place as much as possible from the human side of things."

8. Conclusion

Morgan and Paige conclude with reflections on staying engaged in societal issues that impact families and advocating for equitable systems. Paige shares her platforms where listeners can connect with her for further insights.

Notable Quote:

Paige Turner [48:19]: "I have a newsletter where I talk about these things in depth weekly."

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Key Takeaways:

• Equity in Parenting: Effective parenting partnerships require shared responsibilities and open communication to prevent burnout and resentment.
• Understanding the Mental Load: Recognizing and addressing the invisible checklist of tasks can alleviate stress and promote fairness in domestic roles.
• Challenging Traditional Roles: The "trad wife" narrative often overlooks the complexities and sacrifices involved in traditional domestic roles.
• Advocacy for Systemic Change: Empowering families through policies like affordable childcare and paid parental leave is crucial for fostering equitable partnerships.
• Utilizing Social Media for Change: Platforms like TikTok can be powerful tools for raising awareness and driving conversations around modern parenthood and gender roles.

This episode offers a profound exploration of the challenges and dynamics of modern motherhood, emphasizing the necessity of equitable partnerships and societal support systems to empower parents in their journey.

Transcript

[Morgan Debon]

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Journey podcast. It's me, Morgan. Still me. Different week, same person. We are here today to talk all things parenthood planning and also how to have a great partnership with the person that you may decide to have children with, whether you intended to or not. I am joined today by someone who I follow on TikTok, Paige Turner. And she has inspired me many times. Actually, she doesn't know this, but she's inspired me many times to, like, let my partner. You all know who my partner is, Josh, do things. Like, sometimes I'm like, I wouldn't do it that way. And I find myself being like, doesn't matter, let him do it. And also I feel guilty at times sometimes. So, like, my partner Josh does Langston's bath time routine every day. Like, that is his non negotiable. Like, he is like, I want to do bath time. And also sometimes he wakes him up. And so sometimes I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, I feel like moms are the ones that, like, normally do bath time or, like, normally do, like, the good morning, like, wake up thing. And I, like, feel guilty that I don't take on that role sometimes. And I hear Paige's voice in the back of my head being like, no, you should let him do the things. Like, you know, hey, everyone, I'm Morgan debon, a passionate entrepreneur and life advisor. With the Journey podcast, you'll discover that success isn't about the destination, it's about the journey. I'm sharing stories of amazing people who've taken control of their lives. Join me on my own journey to discover the secret sauce behind reaching success with permission from no one else. Anyways, Paige, welcome to.

[Paige Turner]

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

[Morgan Debon]

So tell us a little bit about your background. And of course, you have had an incredible career before you even got into TikTok world. Tell me a little bit about you and how you got started.

[Paige Turner]

Sure. So I've kind of come full circle with content creation because I went to school for broadcast journalism, so maybe it's not surprising this is where I've ended up. But I spent most of my career in operations roles in startups, So I was in the startup world, specifically E commerce, overseeing operations of our teams and businesses. And so very different from what I'm doing today on TikTok and Instagram. But, you know, I had been working for, I don't know, eight or nine years before I became a parent. And becoming a working parent really radicalized me in a way that I was not Anticipating because it just opened my eyes to all of the things, all the systems, all the expectations that we place on women that I maybe knew of in theory, but didn't quite understand what the impact of them looked like on a person. And once I started experiencing that and talking about it in my home with my partner and with my friends, I eventually started to share on social media and that just happened organically. I was just on TikTok for fun. There was no. I started it because we used it at work. And so I was not looking to be a content creator or to talk about the things that I talk about. It just happened because I was sharing my day to day life. And so I like to tell people that I am no expert on this. I walked through it the same way so many other women have and then dedicated all of my time to figuring out what was going on. I am also a mom to four kids. They are all still pretty young, they're all seven and under. So we're still really in the thick of it. And that in itself is a very full time job. So.

[Morgan Debon]

Right. What do you feel like was the moment where people were like, wait, what's going on? I can tell you, for me, when you popped up was when you were like, I have all these kids and they're in daycare and this is how much I pay for daycare. And I was like, damn, that's a lot of money. What was, what do you feel like that was your inflection point?

[Paige Turner]

That was. Yes. I mean, I had been talking about certain aspects of this for a little bit, but not in that way. And you know, I went viral ish for the first time because I said how much I pay for daycare. But I went a little bit more viral when I shared my response because people were commenting things like, you just need to stay at home with your children. Why be a girl boss when you could be a mother? And all of these things. And I was so frustrated by this expectation that we place on women that at the end of the day, parenting responsibilities are theirs and theirs alone to navigate. The cost of childcare is theirs and theirs alone. And I just don't agree with that. And I shared my perspective on why I think it's important for me to be in the workforce. And you know, some of that's from my own lived experience. You know, I had a divorced parent and I knew how important it was to be able to financially provide for your children in the case of anything, divorce, death, whatever it might be, anything. I also grew up in The Northeast, where like everybody was from a dual income home.

[Josh]

Right.

[Paige Turner]

So like, I just, that was just my worldview, but I'm also looking to create a specific life for my kids and for my family. And, and I thought that was valuable as well. And so that really was the inflection point. That was the moment where this no longer just became fun for me. This became an opportunity to hopefully educate and equip women in particular with the words and tools to articulate what they're going through and to advocate for themselves.

[Morgan Debon]

Yeah. So for that woman who's listening to this right now, who maybe doesn't have kids yet and is doing that math and saying, I make $85,000 a year and I live in a city, a DC, a Virginia, a New York, I'm like, sis, I hope you don't live in New York, maybe, maybe in Jersey instead. How should they go about thinking about the trade off between pausing their career, going back to work, not going back to work, etc.

[Paige Turner]

So before I get into it, there's two things I want to say. One, you can pause your career if that is what you want to do and you think it is best for yourself and for your family, whether it's for your kids or not, even for your kids, just because you don't want to work and be a parent to young children, like, that's totally fine. There is power in choosing that. But what so many women experience is that they don't have a choice to choose. And so I want to talk about that a little bit, but I think what you just said actually leads me to how I think about it, which is I never compare a woman's salary to the cost of childcare, ever, because it's not hers to pay for. It's not a cost that only she is responsible for. So often in this conversation, women say, I only make 60k, I only make 60k, so how can you expect me to spend $40,000 on childcare? It doesn't make sense for me to work and I always push back on that. And I say, when you went and got a mortgage for your home, did the mortgage lender only consider your husband's salary? Did he say, sorry, sir, you don't make enough to cover this mortgage? No, it's a joint expense, it's a shared expense and you both are paying for it. And you're both considered. When we think about the cost of a home, that is how we should think about childcare. It is a shared family expense. It is not something that is the burden of a woman to accommodate for. And so when we do that, when we say I make 60k and my, I'll say this, my daycare is $60,000 a year for all four of my kids. My childcare, not just daycare, but childcare. Say I was comparing those two things. It looks like I'm making nothing, right? But it's ignoring the fact that I'm contributing to my 401k, that I have benefits and Social Security and all of these things, as well as the lost earnings if I leave the workforce, how much I will lose out on the, the promotions, the career growth, just the opportunities alone. Because what we know to be true is when women leave the workforce and try to reenter, they're not offered the same salary they had when they left, right? It's like they're starting from the day they graduated college. And if you're like me, I was getting offered like $28,000 a year, right? So it's very, very difficult. But I think first and foremost, do not look at the cost of childcare as your responsibility alone. It is the responsibility of the family. And it's. If it's the entire cost of your salary, as long as it makes sense for your family financially and doesn't put obviously a burden on the family, I think it's okay to choose to work. Even if it like ends up being zero when you compare yours to childcare. Because you know, there are long term impacts to remaining in the workforce if that is what you want to do.

[Morgan Debon]

I think a lot of women do want to remain in the workforce and certainly there's, you know, of course women who are like, I would love to be a stay at home mom. And that is a job in itself. Childcare is a job. That's why we all pay for it, because it in fact is labor. But setting that aside for just a second, how do you like, advise for women to have those conversations with their partner? Because it is an unconventional approach. Like it isn't necessarily how we were raised, it isn't how society tells us. I mean, I'll even say in my own household, like, I pay for the nanny. Like I literally, in my mind I'm like, no, the nanny is like helping me. Like obviously it's also helping my partner. But like I am especially in the year one of baby life, like she's doing, washing all my breast pumps parts. She's all these things for the baby, right? Like if she wasn't doing it, it would have most likely fallen on me. And I think it would have been hard for me to be like, oh, you should pay for this incredibly, ridiculously expensive nanny that I just hired. Now I do. Now, he does pay for lots of things, but, like, in the beginning, it was hard for me. So I'm curious, what advice would you give for women who are trying to, like, work through how they have that conversation?

[Paige Turner]

I think it goes back to the idea that you two, whether you chose to or not, and whether it happened on purpose or not, you two are both parents to this child. And if you're married to this person. I talk a lot about equity in a marriage and how equity at home really bleeds into equity in all other facets of life, whether that's the workplace or whatever that might be. Right. When we don't have equity starting in our homes, it is very difficult for women in particular to fight for equity outside of our homes because there's still this expectation. And the numbers show that women, when they get married, even before children, they have more work each week, more domestic labor, whether that's cooking, cleaning, whatever. Simply by being married to a man, they have more work to do. And when they have children, they do disproportionately more domestic labor in childcare. But it's so interesting because when we talk about, like, parenting, men will be like, well, I'm the parent too. And it's like, well, then, then, like, let's start parenting together. Okay? So I think the biggest thing for when I advise people on this is if equity matters to you in your home, if you're not looking to kind of have the trad wife life or whatever that might look like for you, it. It's in all facets of parenting, right? Even if you're breastfeeding, your husband can still participate in overnight feedings. You don't have to be doing those things alone. He can be washing the breast pump parts. That's what my husband did. I would pump, and then when I. When I was feeding the baby, he would be washing the parts, and then that way we could all get back to bed faster. And it was a team effort. And that doesn't mean he woke up every single time, but he woke up a lot of the times to participate in these things. And the same is true of childcare costs, right? Say you disappear tomorrow. What's he going to do? How's he going to care for this child? He'll be paying for a nanny because you doing that childcare for him allows him to have his career and life outside of the home, outside of being a dad. And so we have to recognize that. That this really is a joint effort. Parenting is a joint effort. But for so long, we've placed the burden of the work. And when I say work, I mean, there are so many things that are just like a symptom of parenting, Right? Like laundry is a symptom of parenting. It's not parenting. And folding laundry has nothing to do with being a parent. It's just a symptom of having children. There's lots and lots of laundry. But so often we equate laundry with parenting. Oh, she's the mom. She does the laundry for the kids. She takes care of the kids. But that snowballs into dishes and school meetings and doctor's appointments.

[Josh]

Right.

[Paige Turner]

And all of these things are just things you have to do that really have nothing to do with being a good parent. And so I really think in order to kind of have these conversations, you really have to zoom out and think, okay, if we're trying to be equal partners here and to share equitably in this work, in this labor and in parenting, that means this is.

[Morgan Debon]

Yeah.

[Paige Turner]

This is a shared responsibility, shared cost, and shared effort.

[Morgan Debon]

Absolutely. So one of the things that you talk through is mental load. Can you explain when you say mental load, what that means to you and how we should all be thinking about.

[Paige Turner]

It for a really long time? I could not articulate it. And so I want to say that, like, I think so many women experience mental load, and they have no idea what it is. And then it drives us bananas and we go crazy and we yell at everybody and we're like. And we lose our minds, right? Because we. We don't know how to say what mental load is. And so the mental load, I like to think about it as the running checklist in your brain. Everything you need to know, do and remember, whether it's for yourself or for your home or for your children. So we'll use an example like the holidays. Because I just did this today. It was the second to last day of school before the holiday break. I have gifts for all the teachers, and I have gifts for the bus driver, and I have gifts for all these things. And so for the last two months, I've been thinking, okay, I need to pick up gift cards while I'm at Target, because it's. If you buy them today is $10 off or something like that. I need to do that. And then I need to get wrapping paper, and then I need to. They sent me home a list of what kind of candle scents they like. So I'm Gonna buy them the right kind of candles and I'm gonna remember to bring them with me on Thursday morning. And so it's this running checklist of all the things I need to do to give a gift, right? It looks really simple. I'm handing a gift to a teacher and saying thank you. But a lot of time and effort went into making that happen. And the same thing is true of the diaper bag, right? When you go to the playground and your child eats all the snacks and goes through 10 diapers because they had a blowout or whatever, it's remembering that when you get home, you need to refill that diaper bag. And not only do you need to refill the diapers, you also need all the snacks and you need wipes and you need all of these things. And so it says running checklists in your brain of all the things you need to know and do that help you execute your day to day life. It's remembering which kid likes cheddar cheese versus which likes mozzarella, right? Like your brain is overwhelmed by all this information. And the thing about this mental load checklist is it never gets shorter. Every time you check something off, you add two more things to it. I did the laundry, but now I need to buy laundry pods. And also she grew out of her pants, so now I need to buy new pants for my child, right? So it's like I checked off laundry, but now I have to add two more things to my list, and that is the mental load. And oftentimes I talk about the mental load of motherhood because again, this work often falls to women. But mental load exists in all facets of life. So whether you have children, whether you're married, there's mental load with work, with friendships, with family, relationships, like, who's the friend who's always planning brunch and like texting everybody and like making sure to call the restaurant. Like, that's work. Somebody's doing that. And it takes time and effort.

[Morgan Debon]

Absolutely. Yeah. I think about the mental load a lot and my role as CEO where I'm like, nobody else cares about this thing but me. Like, it's our 10 year anniversary. Is this somebody else's job to even remind someone it's our 10 year anniversary? What are we doing for this? And how long in advance do I need to be reminding people that in two years it'll be our 10 year? And so we need to do this thing, you know, And I literally, sometimes I'm just like, literally, I don't think anybody cares. And I'VE started to recognize the mental load when it's creeping up in my head and just choosing to just be like, nobody cares about you. Like, let it go. So, like our Christmas tree, it's not decorated. I still have a pumpkin on my stairs outside my house because I just didn't do, like the pumpkin drop off at whatever time it's socially acceptable to take the pumpkin off. That pumpkin might stay there for another couple of weeks. Like, there's so many things that I've just accepted. Yeah. I didn't clean up my backyard after you, you know, the summer. So everything's just crusty and dusty back here. I'm looking at it now. Yeah. I'm just gonna be okay with it.

[Paige Turner]

Yeah. And, you know, here's the thing. Some of these things we can let go. Right. And I think this is actually a lot of to what you're talking about. Like, there's certain things we can let go. Obviously, there's a lot of societal expectations and pressures placed on women to do it all and be it all and to always go above and beyond. So it can be very hard because there's also a lot of guilt and judgment and shame. Right. I even think about the idea that if I dropped off my daughters, I have three daughters at school, and they looked crazy, somebody would be judging me if I didn't brush their hair, if I didn't do their hair. But if my husband did it, they'd be like, oh, at least they have pants on. You know, like that's the difference. Right. So there's that judgment and shame. But also some of it cannot be dropped.

[Josh]

Right.

[Paige Turner]

Some of it can't actually fall off the to do list. Yeah. Yeah. And so I have a friend who also refers to it as like the open tabs on your computer. Right. Like, how many you keep them there because you don't want to forget about them. Them. That's also like the mental load. It's like you keep. Keep that little nugget in your brain because you don't want to forget about it. And yeah, it's really difficult and it can be incredibly exhausting. Another way to think about some of this work is the term cognitive labor. So it's labor, it's work, but it's just living in your brain. And oftentimes that invisible work we're doing goes really unacknowledged and it's not valued because nobody else sees it. And they don't. They don't see that checklist.

[Morgan Debon]

That's right. So for someone who's Listening to this and they're thinking through like, okay, yeah, now you've like put a label on something that, like this, this is what I've been trying to communicate to my partner. Like, this is what I've been trying to say is like, who's getting the gifts for your parents? Who's, what's the thing? Did you make the reservation for the vacations? What about all the flights and the hotels and the times and thinking through all the things, like, how do you start to. Because I think one of the things, I didn't finish my sentence but like, what I'm thinking through is the person who's listening to this, who's like, yes, I understand, I have a problem. I hear you all. I don't know how to get out of it because it's not the life that I set up for myself. Like I'm already. And I already have the kids. Like I already agreed. I feel like I already agreed to these things.

[Paige Turner]

Yeah, I don't know how you feel, but I relate to the idea that I never thought I'd end up here, right? Like I was the one who was going to go after my career. Like my husband used to joke, he's like, I'll be a stay at home dad, like, you go for it, girl. And he, he encouraged me always to go after my career. And you know, I moved to LA without him for two years. He's like, no, do it. You'll regret it if you don't, like, go after what you want and I'll be here. And so when we had kids, we very much thought like, yeah, Paige is going to have it all. She's going to be a mom to four kids, but also have this amazing career. And we still fell into these traps, right? We, we fell into these traps because of a couple different things. I like to tell women all the time, this is not an individual failure. You didn't mess up. You didn't pick the wrong partner. You know, this happened because of like a society and system that is set up for this to happen, Right. We don't have paid parental leave or not enough for the people who do have it. I only ever got eight weeks with all four of my kids. Like that's all I ever had. All that combined is less than what people in other countries get for one child, right? So like, I got no time off. My husband didn't get leave, so he couldn't really participate in the way that I was trying to participate. Childcare is incredibly expensive. There's the motherhood penalty.

[Josh]

Right.

[Paige Turner]

So all of these things are kind of designed, but then there's also the societal messaging. Like, men are told their whole lives. You need to be a protector. You need to be a provider. Like, your ultimate job is to put food on the table. And they don't really think about the fact that being a parent is so much more than a paycheck.

[Josh]

Right.

[Paige Turner]

It's how you show up in those little moments all day long. And this burden gets placed on women from. If you're a birthing parent. And I said, I'm also an adoptive mom. Right. It happens in all situations. Um, the second you bring that kid home, mom, how are they eating? Mom, how many wet diapers do they have? Mom, like, mom, mom, mom, all day long. And nobody's asking dad, even though he's sitting right there. And so if you've ended up here, it's not your fault, is what I like to say. There are obviously are sometimes men who are just not great partners and like, that we can't solve for, unfortunately. But I think most men want to be good partners. They want to be in what they would consider, like, an equal partnership. They want to be good dads. Like, they want to do these things, but they've been conditioned very different than we have. And so I think step one, I always tell women and men, is like, first and foremost, you have to have the words to identify what's happening. You have to be able to say, I'm feeling resentful of the fact your life hasn't changed, but mine has. You have to be able to say, I'm drowning in this mental labor that I'm doing, and I need you to do some of it. Without those words, you end up just fighting about stupid stuff like the trash can. You're like, you never take out the trash. And then you just scream at each other about the trash. And then it's like, okay, well, none of this has anything to do with the trash. Right? We're both, like, clearly very frustrated about something else. So having these words to be able to identify what's going on is really helpful. But then I think my number one tip, like, first step to being able to really work through this is making that invisible labor, that mental load visible in whatever way that works for you and your family. But I would say, like, do this exercise for two weeks, a week, whatever feels doable. Every inside thought you have, put it down on paper. I do it in my reminders app on my iPhone. I'm looking right now. I have 59 reminders right now that's my mental load. And it's silly things. It literally is pajama day tomorrow. Son's library day tomorrow. Like, it's make a bread bowl for the party we're going. I don't know. Like, it's all the things that I need to do that I can't forget to do. And then there's work stuff. All this stuff. Write it down. Write down all that invisible labor. Write down the actual labor you're doing that isn't seen making kids lunches, folding laundry. If you're the person. I work from home, I tend to be the person doing those things during the day, like, in between meetings. My husband could come home every single day at the end of the day and never see any of that happening. And to him, it didn't happen.

[Josh]

Right.

[Morgan Debon]

Because invisible labor is real.

[Paige Turner]

Yes. And so an invisible labor doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And, like, if somebody was standing in front of you, they would see it. It often means that it's not acknowledged and it's not valued. So the labor is there. If you're the person doing it, you know, that's very, very real. But oftentimes it can be ignored because one, somebody's benefiting from it without having to do the work, and they've never been accountable or responsible to that work, and. Or they don't value that work.

[Josh]

Right.

[Paige Turner]

Like, oh, how hard is it to make lunches every day? And let me tell you, it's something I literally dread doing every single day in my life. I dread it.

[Morgan Debon]

It's a lot of effort. Yeah, no, totally. I mean, even, like, the different stages of baby eating, I'm like, I am the person in our family who is, I think, cares the most deeply about my son never choking. So I'm always like, I was at my mom's house yesterday, and my mom is, like, literally godsend in terms of, like, helping with the load of a child. But she was, like, eating an apple, and she was like, here, do you want this apple? And I was like, it's a joking hazard. He can't eat an apple. You know? But I was like, okay, that was a little. Maybe an overreaction in tone, but it was just because I was like, you guys, how many times do I have to say, if you can't squish it, he can't eat it. Like, he's not past that yet, you know? And I recognized my. I was, like, watching myself in the moment and was like, oh, my God, you sound ridiculous. Like, you're like, Yelling at your mom about an apple.

[Paige Turner]

But you're not, though? Because the thing is, again, when we think about this mental labor, this cognitive labor, when we think about research for kids, right? Like, yeah, you know, what can they eat? What can't they eat? I was doing a lot of research. I had a kid with an egg allergy, and I was really nervous her sister was going to have it. She did. But I was doing all this research about, like, oh, how common is it for siblings to have similar allergies? And, like, if I'm worried about it, when should I introduce eggs? And I was going through all this research, and I'm telling my husband, and he's like, oh, she'll be fine. Just give her. And I was like, I'm gonna lose my mind on you. I was like, do you know how much time I'm spending thinking about this? But that. That's the case, right? Oftentimes, women are expected to be the ones learning about leaps and wake windows and all these things. Oh, yes.

[Morgan Debon]

I am the nap person. Yes. My son had a bottle aversion, which was so terrifying. Low, low weight and all these things. So I was like, no, we have. I took all these online courses on bottle aversion. I had a bottle aversion book. And then everyone else who was feeding him, I was like, okay, but you can't do that. You have to do this. And they're just like, you're nuts. I'm like, no, I'm not nuts. I promise you, I have researched this, and we will fix this.

[Paige Turner]

Yeah. I like to call it informed parenting. I used to jokingly say to my husband, like, you're going through some opinionated parenting choices, and mine are informed. At least. I was like, so we're gonna take the route that actually is rooted in something real other than your gut. Okay? So, like, yes. And that's not to say we can't follow our guts.

[Josh]

Right?

[Paige Turner]

And, like, sure, as you. As you go through parenting, you might loosen up about certain aspects of it. But, like, this is a lot of work being the one to know what the choking hazards are.

[Josh]

Right?

[Paige Turner]

Like, I didn't realize popcorn was such a large choking hazard until I had kids. And now I'm like, oh, no, no, thanks. They don't need popcorn. She's two and a half. Like, cheese. Yeah, give her something else.

[Morgan Debon]

Yes.

[Paige Turner]

Yes, exactly.

[Morgan Debon]

Some weird ones. Why would we know this? We didn't have kids. Why would we care?

[Paige Turner]

Yeah, we didn't. Like, I could chew cheese. I don't need to know about this.

[Morgan Debon]

Yeah. You know, and I think that's the other thing that I think to myself, I'm like, why would I have known this? Like, of course I have to research this.

[Josh]

Right.

[Morgan Debon]

So of course, I think that when it comes to anyone who's listening in, like, my point in having Paige here is like, as always with this podcast and the show is like, to help people have the tools to think through intentionality behind their choices. It's not to say you might not intentionally decide to carry the majority of the. Making these informed decisions and being the person who makes all these choices with childcare and what the doctor they're going to go to and all of the things like that's totally fine, but no, kind of from your own perspective that you're making that choice and then have a dialogue with your partner on the trade offs for that choice. Because I think that resentment that Paige is talking about is like, really what breaks up a lot of people over time is like that just slow burn. It's like, wait, everything is fine and like no one's doing any sort of crazy infidelity or like anything like that. But you could still carry it can break up a lot of people.

[Paige Turner]

Yeah. There's this book that I recommend to men because it's written by a man. And sometimes they're more receptive to that. Not that they should be more receptive to a man, but sometimes they are. And it's called this is how your marriage ends. And it literally, I think part of it's like, oh, I left a dish in the sink. And like, that was the final straw. And it's really not about the dish in the sink.

[Josh]

Right.

[Paige Turner]

And it oftentimes, I think women often feel resentful or frustrated or even taken advantage of in these situations. Right. They feel disrespected by their partner. And that is a valid feeling to have. If this is happening, it doesn't mean your partner's doing it intentionally, but it's okay to feel those things because that is kind of what's happening.

[Josh]

Right.

[Paige Turner]

Your time is being taken advantage of in a way that they're your partners. Isn't. If this is the case, and the best way through it is you have to have these conversations, whether you can have them before kids or after kids or before marriage. After marriage, you have to talk about it because otherwise the resentment will eat you up and you will divorce your husband over the dishes. Right. You will do that. And it sounds silly, but it's real. And it's something that millions of women are dealing with and so you're definitely not alone. And I felt really alone in it. So I like to tell people that, like, the more we talk about it, the less alone we will feel, the more we will be able to navigate these situations. But for so long we were kind of just told like, yeah, this is what motherhood is like, deal with it. And I don't think it has to be this way.

[Morgan Debon]

No. I'm wondering for those who are kind of in your community who are co parents, you know, where they aren't married, maybe because they didn't start off married or whatever. Yeah, it may be in their situation. How did they approach this?

[Paige Turner]

I think it depends on the relationship. Right. Like how cordial it is and how maybe what it looked like before, you know, if there was ever a real partnership or not. Like, I think this can be really tricky. I actually had a woman DM me the other day and she's like, we, we've come a long way, but man, why do I still have to text my ex husband and itinerary each week of like, what's going on? She's like, he's happy to do everything, he's always doing it, but I have to tell him what to do. Right. And so I think it's no different than if you're married to someone. Obviously, like the actual logistics of it might look different. Right. If you're married to somebody, you're talking about taking out the trash. If you're not married to somebody and you're living in separate homes, you're talking about making sure your kid's backpack always has what it needs in it and that they're doing their homework or whatever it might be that they have their sneakers for basketball practice. It's all those things. But I do think again, if it's a cordial enough relationship where you can have these conversations, I like to recommend a couple different tools you can use, which is there's the Fair Play method and a book by Eve Rodsky called Fair Play. And she has this game that I don't think is perfect, but I think it's a really great starting place, which is like you can list every single task associated with maybe parenting your children and co parenting with somebody. And then you each take ownership of these things and you have visibility. And it's very similar to putting the mental load down on paper, like throw that in there too and talk through all of these things and see, are we doing this in a way that feels fair? Am I doing too much? Are you doing too, too little? What's going on. It's a good starting point to be able to look like on paper and say, okay, who's doing what and. And is it fair? Then there's other things you can use. There's a ton of apps for all this stuff. And I actually think it's really important for co parents to have these tools, whether it's a shared calendar or a shared to do list of things the kids need with due dates. So if you have the kids that day, then you know it's. And if you can assign an owner to those tasks, I think that is all like a really valid way to explore these things. I think all of this has to be rooted though, with like, I like to say this, everybody married, not married. There has to be good intent behind all of this. Right. There has to be a willingness to participate and there has to be a desire for everybody to be happy and thriving. Right. Like, we don't want to place undue burden on somebody else or hopefully we don't want to do that. And if that's the case, then let's have these conversations in a way that makes everybody feel supported and then we can all hopefully thrive in whatever situation we're in.

[Morgan Debon]

Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious, just switching gears a little bit to kind of popular culture a little bit. There's been this resurgence and back and forth on trad wives. You know, there's incredible women who are showcasing their homesteads, making things from scratch that are on farms, milking cows with their seven children. You guys know who I'm talking about. And if you don't, then God bless you.

[Paige Turner]

Just Google it all. You have to google that and you'll find her.

[Morgan Debon]

Yeah. And I'm just curious, like, do you feel like it's changing people's perspectives or like making the work that you're talking about, like, more difficult for people to process or not really.

[Paige Turner]

I think I think about in a couple of different lenses. I think one, a lot of it is a bit of propaganda, right? It's like this like idealized version of like what it used to be. Like. Right. Like what it used to be. And like going back to that.

[Josh]

Right.

[Paige Turner]

But like, I'm sorry, I don't want to chase chickens around. I don't want to milk a cow. Like, I like picking that up at a grocery store. And so like, you're not going to convince me that that's like a better life. I know how hard that is. So there's like some of this is like we joke like the Instagram of It. All right. It's beautiful. It looks amazing. But the actual reality of it is probably pretty difficult to navigate. And so. But what I think it is is a. I think it's a direct response to like, we had the end of the girl boss era, right? And then we like moved into this world where it's like, you're still going to have a job, but it's okay to still be a mom and it's okay to like, prioritize things outside of work. But what's happened is women in particular are so burnt out because they are doing the bulk of the childcare and they're doing the bulk of the domestic labor and they're working their asses off and they're earning more money than their husband, but some like somehow still doing more laundry than him. And women are drowning and they, they're saying, I can't do this. Right? I can't fight against the fact that I don't have affordable child care. I can't fight against the fact that I keep getting passed up at work simply because I'm a mom. I don't want to fight this fight anymore. So I'm just going to leave the workforce and I'm just gonna. I'm gonna be a tread wife. I'm gonna. I'm gonna be at home and life will be simpler. And what I will say is I am a mom who got laid off eight weeks ago. And I'm sorry. Thank you. It was a little bit of a blessing in disguise. But I have found that my days are just as busy and hectic and crazy as they were when I had my last job. They just look different. They just look different. But all the same systemic issues are still there. Right? And I think about stay at home moms. The average stay at home mom, not a privileged mom who is married to a JetBlue heir.

[Josh]

Right?

[Paige Turner]

Like, an average mom does not have the funds to pay for supports. She doesn't have the funds to pay for childcare. So she can go to a doctor's appointment when she needs to go to the doctors. She doesn't have the opportunity to have her husband call out of work when her kids are sick. So she's taking care of her sick kids when she's sick.

[Josh]

Right?

[Paige Turner]

Like all of those things still exist. It is still incredibly exhausting. It's still a ton of work. It is still hard. Like all of the things are still there. You just no longer have a boss that you have to request PTO from. And I think that's the thing. It's like, I, I think we've ignored a lot of the realities of what being a stay at home mom looks like. In any stay at home mom will tell you, like, this is no cakewalk. And so there's, there's that. But also when we look at trad wives, again, I want to talk about that privilege, like the ones that people love to look at on social media are incredibly wealthy, incredibly privileged, and most of us are not that way. It's very difficult to live in a single income in this country currently, which is why most people don't do that.

[Josh]

Right.

[Paige Turner]

And so there's that part, but it ignores the financial risk that it poses to women. Right. One of the biggest indicators that a woman will have like financial trouble in the future is that she has children. Like, simply the fact that she has children puts her at greater risk of financial trouble in the future. Whether it's divorce or death or your partner becomes disabled or sick, whatever it is, you're now in a position where you're not able to provide for yourself or to leave a marriage if you want to. You don't have a retirement. There's this actual thing that women have to retire later because when they take time off to care for their children, they don't put into their retirement funds and therefore they can't retire when their partners retire. And there's more women, elderly women who live in poverty because of things like this. And so when we just say just leave the workforce, Even just for five years, 10 years, you can go back, it's really not that simple. It has really long term implications on women. And I think the trad wife thing, it's like, it looks so beautiful and it looks like a response to what we're all dealing with and the struggles we have. When in reality, I think the real responses, systems and infrastructure and funding and supports in our country that would allow us all to thrive, the problem is those are just much harder to get done. Yeah, exactly.

[Morgan Debon]

Yeah. Well, we're certainly not closer today than.

[Paige Turner]

We were potentially, unfortunately. No, no, we're farther away, much further away.

[Morgan Debon]

I think the other thing from, like when I look at those women and I say, oh man, to make a Cinnabon from scratch, Like, I just think it's, it's interesting. I think it's inspiring to say, okay, how I look at it is like, oh, I don't think about how some of the things that I consume are made. And when I think about my child and what he's putting into his body and all of the chemicals and all these recalls that we've had recently, which is also exhausting. So I'm like, how are organic cucumbers getting recalled? Like, supposed to be organic?

[Paige Turner]

So what am I paying for?

[Morgan Debon]

You know? Like, it's infuriating. So I'm like, shit, should I just build the cucumbers in my backyard? Like, yeah, you know, so I take it as like, okay, let me join the community csa. Like, I'm not gonna pick the cucumbers in the backyard, but I can pay the guy who picked the cucumbers in the backyard. Cause I live in Tennessee. So thinking about how do I take inspiration from some of those choices?

[Paige Turner]

Yeah.

[Morgan Debon]

And say, like, okay, let me bring that into my life. But I think what's really hard is for people who want to be in the workforce and do want to have it all. Like, they do want to have the beautiful home and host people for the holidays. They do want to have the kids.

[Paige Turner]

Yeah.

[Morgan Debon]

And they do want to experience all of the things. It's the overwhelming pressure of the perfection. Like, it's the overwhelming pressure of like, oh, like, this is what this is supposed to look like because of how social media has portrayed it. And I think for other generations, they didn't see those images. Like, they only saw make themselves their mother, their aunts, families, maybe their church or their faith life. Like, that was like, all they were exposed to, Right. And now we see everything and there's.

[Paige Turner]

Like, pushback on everything you do, Right. I could say, like, I made this from scratch. And somebody's like, well, you used the wrong flower. And I'm like, oh, okay. Like, you can't really do anything right on social media, to be honest. Like, no matter what you do, somebody has something to say or a different opinion or a different lived experience. Right. One man said on a recent video of mine, well, men pay for everything, so women should do all the labor. And I was like, well, actually, only 18% of households are single income income households. And in some of those, it's women earning the single income.

[Josh]

Right.

[Paige Turner]

So, no, not every man is paying for everything, because that's just not the reality of our, our world. And more and more women are breadwinners. Now, 41 of homes have breadwinners that are women. And so the tides have turned on that part. Right. But our worldviews are shaped by what we've personally experienced. So when I said, like, I grew up in the Northeast, every woman I knew, every mom I knew went to college, every mom I knew had a job. Like, I don't. I Couldn't tell you.

[Morgan Debon]

How was your friend?

[Paige Turner]

Yeah, I couldn't tell you one friend was a stay at home mom. Couldn't tell you one because I didn't know anybody who had a stay at home mom. Like, I thought that was a thing of sitcoms. I was like, that is fake. That's not real. Right. And none of my grandparents were stay at home moms. Like, no. Everybody was always working. Like, that is just the world I lived in. And so I could have gone through my life never knowing anything different because that's what I experience and still experience in my own community now. Like, all of my friends are working moms. And so social media has just expanded our worldview in amazing ways. But it's also this information overload and pressure. I even think about, like, I don't know if you've ever done this, but, like, sometimes I scroll my husband's Instagram and I'm like, why is your. Yeah, but I'm like, his whole Instagram. My husband's also like a blue collar handy guy. It's like woodworking videos. I'm like, like, it's all woodworking. And mine is like, this is the best sleep sack and this is the best way to feed your child. And have you like, done X, Y and Z sensory activity? And I'm like, no, I haven't. And I haven' It. Like, it, it knows I'm a mom. Like, it knows because I liked one video or said the word mom and the algorithm was like, whoa. She needs every expert in her feed today. And I think that's the difference too, for moms is that we get that messaging all day long.

[Morgan Debon]

I'm getting message. The, the second kid narrative now. Like, I'm getting message like, yeah, and I actually, I caught it. Like, I was like, scrolling. I was like, why am I getting all these videos of like two under two or this woman who's got three under four and oh, should I have the second kid or not? I was like, I have not searched this at all. So you guys are just tracking the age, like, based off of like the, you know, breastfeeding and the food and like, you're tracking like, what stage and women who are in this stage. That is so unfair. TikTok.

[Paige Turner]

It is. Yeah. Well, it's also probably like, oh, she watched this whole video. So she said.

[Morgan Debon]

And I did.

[Paige Turner]

Yeah. And she, she, she wants it. Yeah. They're like, she watched this whole thing, which means she wants to see more of this. So she's going to get all the two under Two content.

[Morgan Debon]

No, thank you.

[Paige Turner]

Yeah, I don't make that contact because 202 is really hard. Yeah. I mean, it is so interesting because what we see is so specific to us in our lived experiences. But again, tied back to those expectations, our husbands aren't seeing that content. They're just not at all.

[Morgan Debon]

He's not thinking about it at all. So switching gears to this kind of, like, new political climate that we're entering, we're not entering into a political climate that is favoring, let's say, equitable pay and equitable rights for women, but we are weirdly entering in a society where people do value the traditional family. And so there's like, this weird complex of being, like, traditional family, like, you know, supporting families. We're doing this for families and the American family. And yet when you look at the policies and the implications of those things that they're proposing, it's literally the opposite of things that will actually impact the American family. How do you feel like we should all be advocating for ourselves? And, I mean, I watched you during the election. I thought you did a good job of like, balancing informing with, you know, sharing your own opinion versus just like, this is the information. You guys should be aware of this. How do you feel like we should be doing that in kind of these next three or four years?

[Paige Turner]

Yeah. So I think one of the reasons I love social media is because I actually do think it can be a tool for change. And for. Even if you only impact one person's ideology with what you share, I think that is still impactful. And so. But I think at the end of the day, it's the conversations we're having with people in our lives.

[Josh]

Right.

[Paige Turner]

I have to have conversations with my own mother and be like, do you know how much daycare costs? Like, do you. Do you understand?

[Morgan Debon]

Mothers have no idea.

[Paige Turner]

I'm like, do you understand, like, the lack of paid, like, all these things. Right. Like, having these conversations and saying, like, when you vote for this person or this policy, like, that's putting me in a really difficult position. Right. Or even things like the Department of Education. As parents, I think a lot of us care about education for our kids. I have three kids who are in special education programs for different things. Like, one's in speech therapy. She has an iep. If the Department of Education goes away, she might no longer have access to that, which would mean I then have to pay out of pocket, which I already do for other speech therapy for her, but I would have to pay for additional out of pocket speech therapy. It's $45 a session.

[Morgan Debon]

Wow.

[Paige Turner]

I'd be spending over $100 a week just to get her speech therapy that she gets for free right now through the state and through government funding. And so a lot of people don't realize this. Right. A lot of people are like, they're for the family. They want us to be able to buy groceries, but they don't realize, like, all the other implications of what's about to happen because it's hard to stay on top of. I can't stay on top of all of these things, which is why I'm trying to consume as much information as I can. And so I think having these conversations in your life, they're kind of weird and hard to have because we've been told our whole lives not to talk about politics, but, like, I actually think we need to talk about politics and doing so from a place as much as possible from, like, the human side of things. Right. Which is like, yes. I'm also pro family. And you know what I want? I want your child to have free lunch at school. I do. I just want your kid to be able to eat.

[Morgan Debon]

Yeah.

[Paige Turner]

I want, like, if. If you forget to pack your kid lunch, I want you to know that they're gonna have lunch at school. School. And they're not going to be ashamed for it or, like, any of those things. And I want us to think about the human side of these things. I had a woman reach out to me because I talk a lot about daycare, and she's like, you're going to get this page. I pay so much money for child care similar to you. And there's this family that goes here, and they're here on a voucher. And how unfair is that? And I was like, that's weird that you think it's unfair that a child has access to safe and affordable child care. Like, it's not their fault that it's expensive for you. It's not.

[Josh]

Right.

[Paige Turner]

And that is not them. Getting that free voucher spot did not make your spot more expensive. That's not what happened. And so I think we all have to just do our best to step outside of just, like, our issues and look at the people around us and say, that little boy deserves the same care that my little boy has. There's no reason he shouldn't. Like, he's a child, and I shouldn't be able to afford this daycare simply because of my privileges. And this child has to go to an unsafe. Maybe not even an accredited daycare. Right. Because his parents can't afford it. And so I like to have those conversations. And she and I had that conversation. Luckily, she was very receptive to it. But I think we can all be stuck in our worldview and say, like, whoa, this is happening to me. I'm spending $60,000 a year in childcare. This is unfair. I can afford it. It sucks, but I can afford it. There's a person sitting next to me who can't afford it, and they're choosing options that aren't safe, and I wouldn't want for any child. Right. And so I'm not advocating just for me. I'm also advocating for those people. And I think that's what we have to do in this political system is look at these policies and not just how they impact one person, but everybody.

[Josh]

Right.

[Paige Turner]

How does this impact all of us? And specifically these things about mothers and kids? I mean, what happens with our kids? What happens with mothers? It's ultimately an economic issue, and, like, we need to think about it that way as well.

[Morgan Debon]

Absolutely. And I think it's also, like, it could be you at any given moment. Like, this idea that we're all safe is just not the case. I mean, we see it with the school shootings and everything. It's like, there's no rhyme to this reason. Like, it is literally, I don't care. Private, public, 5 years old, 20 years old.

[Paige Turner]

Doesn't matter.

[Morgan Debon]

Doesn't matter. So, like, if we don't all start to say, literally, my neighbor's child is my own, like, if we don't do that, then we are the ones that are going to have the consequences, not the politicians.

[Paige Turner]

It's us, the normal people. Yeah. And I think, you know, I'm talking to you as a privileged white woman living in the suburbs of Massachusetts. Right. And, like, I don't know, if you talked to me in my 20s, I'd have this worldview. Right. And I credit that some of that to, like, social media and being able to, like, learn and grow and. And evolve. But I think to your point, like, gun violence, for example, is something that I think we all agree on. Like, I think 60 of people in a poll said that they wanted to ban assault weapons because. Because of this issue. Right. But our politicians aren't having. I went to D.C. just a few weeks ago to lobby on this, and the politicians don't care.

[Morgan Debon]

They don't care.

[Paige Turner]

They don't care because that's not where their money's coming from. And for them, it's not really about that. Right. And so we have to view that. We have to understand that, and we also have to acknowledge our privilege in these conversations, which is like, I don't have any. None of us have privilege in this gun violence conversation. Like, there is no privilege. There's no way to protect your children. You can keep them home from school, but if you can walk into a grocery store, it can happen anywhere. Honestly, it can happen anywhere. And so, like, there are certain areas where we don't have privilege, but when we do have privilege, I do think it is our responsibility to acknowledge those who don't. You know, the. The Maha movement in particular. You know, I had people in my DMs after the election, like, well, don't you want our kids to have safe food? I said, yes, but not at the expense of other kids. Not. I. I can. I can bake my own bread. I can. To your point, I can grow my own tomatoes if I want to. Like, I can actually do those things. I cannot protect your child from gun violence. I can't. There's nothing any of us can do. You can't protect my. My oldest son is a black boy. I'm like, you can't protect him from police brutality in the future. You can't, because you're. You're voting against that actively. And so I don't have a choice on that. You have a choice. You can make your own cucumbers and your own bread, but I can't. I can't choose a different world for this. This kid. And so I try to have that perspective and I try to hear that perspective from other people as well, and to, like, understand that. But I think as much as we can do that, I do think we're all probably closer than we think on a lot of these topics.

[Morgan Debon]

Yeah, I agree. I think that the more that we all talk to each other and have these conversations and humanize the actual. What are we really talking about? Like, the Department of Education sounds like a big thing. It's like the Department of Education. I don't know what it does. Or like, you know, it's like, well, actually, let's really talk about. Yeah, let's really talk about it. Yeah. And these are the children, the people that are going to grow up to be the people who you are operating with, that are driving the cars next to you on the highway, that are in the grocery stores with you, that are in the movie theater with you watching Wicked. Like, you can't just segment yourself in a little bubble, you know? So for anyone who's listening to this I know that for a lot of us, we have went through the election. We're kind of like, it's done. It's out of our hands. Like, it's going to be what it's going to be. They're going to fuck around and find out. But like, we can't have that mentality.

[Paige Turner]

Of like, no, they are going to.

[Morgan Debon]

Fuck around and find out. Like, we are also going to find out, unfortunately. Yeah, unfortunately for all of us. But we have to stay engaged. And I think what I think about there's a lot of other issues when I think about being a mother and being a parent and being a working person who cares deeply about my community. Part of it is staying engaged. So anywho, you guys know I could go on and on. Paige, thank you for joining us today. Where can folks find you and connect with you?

[Paige Turner]

Sure. I am on all social media as long as it exists and is not banned. At sheispage Turner, you can also find my Substack ad. She's a Paige Turner on Substack. I have a newsletter where I talk about these things in depth weekly. But yeah, otherwise you'll find me everywhere online.

[Morgan Debon]

Amazing. Paige, thanks for joining us today and you all. I'll see you next week right here back on the Journey Podcast.

[Paige Turner]

Bye bye.

[Morgan Debon]

Thanks for listening to the Journey Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you leave a review and head to our Instagram and YouTube to leave a comment. I look forward to hearing how this podcast has made an impact on your own Journey.