← The Journey with Morgan DeBaun
The Journey with Morgan DeBaun
The Business of Fashion with Marie Claire's Editor in Chief Nikki Ogunnaike
00:51:04
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- [00:00]
Morgan DeBaun
Hi friends, it's Morgan DeBaun and I have some exciting news. My book, Rewrite youe the Journey to Success in Less Time with More Freedom is now available for pre order. Pre orders are so important, not just for me as a first time author, but for the message of this book. Ordering this book helps amplify the message that more people can break free from the grind, rewrite their own rules in life, and live a rich, juicy life full of joy and empathy. So if you resonate with any of the content that I put out over this last few years, this podcast, any of the stories I share on social, and you've been inspired by my work at Blavity or Afrotech, pre ordering is the best way to show your support and your gratitude for any of the work that I have done. Plus, you'll be the first to get your hands on the book when it launches next spring. And that will mean literally the world to me. So make sure you check out morgandebond.com to secure your copy and join me in this movement to create a life of freedom, abundance, and more importantly, to have the tools and the frameworks that you need to take control of your life. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Journey podcast. I am here with Nikki Okanaki. I'm so excited for her to join us today. We are going to talk all things fashion, all things business, and also we're going to talk a little bit about media. We're going to talk a little bit about trends. Coming up for the fall, Nikki is an incredible, incredible executive and media. She is a fashion leader. She is part of this renaissance of incredible black women who have gotten to the forefront of some of the hardest jobs to get in, frankly, the world. And so incredibly exclusive. We're so honored to have her here today. And I did not say this, but she's the editor in Chief of Mary Claire, so it's true.
- [01:49]
Nikki Okanaki
Thank you for having me, Morgan. I'm so excited to be here.
- [01:52]
Morgan DeBaun
Hey everyone. I'm Morgan debont, a passionate entrepreneur and life advisor. With the Journey podcast, you'll discover that success isn't about the destination. It's about the journey. I'm sharing stories of amazing people who've taken control of their lives. Join me on my own journey to discover the secret sauce behind reaching success. With permission from no one else. Okay, so selfish thing to admit, I am not a fashion girly and my team and I have recently been like, wait, why don't I get invited to all these things Now I live in Nashville, Tennessee, so My hypothesis is that I'm a techie person. I came up in the techie world, and I don't live in New York and I don't live in LA anymore. And so I'm not invited to this stuff. So let's first just start with how does the fashion world work? Because it seems very opaque to me and I am just so curious. Yeah, yeah.
- [02:47]
Nikki Okanaki
I mean, I think what's interesting about the fashion world and when people refer to it as the fashion world is that, like, at the end of the day, it's an industry, it's a business, as is any other sort of business that's, like, operating out here. Right. So, you know, when I look at sort of the things that are going on in, like, Silicon Valley or these, like, big wig tech conferences where everyone's, like, gathering in, what's the one, like Davos or whatever, like all of those secret places where people are gathering, I'm sort of like, oh, I would love to be in those rooms. But they are. Especially when you think about, like, fashion shows and that sort of things. Like fashion shows at the end of the day or when they started are trade shows. Right? And so it was just like newspaper editors, magazine editors, buyers, like, looking at the fashion and then distilling it for their audiences. And that would take, like, months on end, right? Because it was just like a couple of people in a room distilling these trends and then disseminating it wide to these various audiences. Now the fashion industry and the fashion world has completely changed and in part has become democratized because of social media, because of television, which I think is a really good thing. But I think that sometimes people forget that, like, at the end of the day, it is a job. Like, this is my job. Right. It's a part of my life. And it's definitely extremely glamorous. Like, I won't drag it. Like, it is a very glamorous job, but it is a job at the end of the day.
- [04:12]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah, I think that's maybe something as, like, a consumer of the content and the glamour of it all we don't fully understand is the economics and the trades that are happening at these trade shows in person. You know, Milan Fashion Week was last week, of course, New York Fashion Week was two weeks prior to that. Help us understand now what it's transitioned into and, like, what are the economics of a fashion show? Because I did, for the first time in my life, have a chance to go. I went to Harlem Fashion Rose show, which was amazing. I've been a huge Supporter of Brandeis for a really long time. And what I saw there, one, I was like, this is really expensive. Like, I think I was not expecting the theatrical nature of it all.
- [04:56]
Nikki Okanaki
Yeah, they're huge marketing campaigns, basically. Like, I look at a fashion show as the opportunity for the brand to really infuse, like sometimes millions of dollars into these marketing moments. So a fashion show operates on a bunch of different levels. So we have editors and buyers in the rooms who are sort of studying the trends and then going back to their respective corners and saying, this is what we think that the Marie Claire woman will want to wear. The Bergdorf buyer is saying, this is what we think the Bergdorf customer would like to wear. We have the influencers in the room who are speaking to their own respective audiences as well. So we have people in those spaces who have 5 million followers on Instagram, 20 million followers on TikTok, whatever it may be. And they are distilling the trends for their audiences as well. They're bringing their audiences into this, like, very sort of small, exclusive room. And then we have the makeup artists, we have the stylists, we have the creative director who's putting it all together. We have the movement director who's telling the models how they should walk down the Runway, you know, and they're turning these Runway shows into, as you said, theatrical experiences. Everything that goes into a fashion show, like, when you see it on your phone or when you see it on sort of like a computer experience, it can look unassumingly easy. If I can say that it looks effortless, it looks effortless. But there are so many people that go into making this like 20 minute experience that's sort of like here today, gone tomorrow, and cost like millions of dollars to put on.
- [06:27]
Morgan DeBaun
Incredible.
- [06:28]
Nikki Okanaki
Yeah.
- [06:28]
Morgan DeBaun
And the return on investment, then as the designer is, my items are getting picked up, I have more shelf space. People are buying things, People are buying.
- [06:38]
Nikki Okanaki
Things, people are seeing it. It's a lot of sort of raising brand awareness, which is why when we look at smaller designers who may not have shows, or smaller designers who think they have to have a show to be able to play, you know, in the same space as a V or Gucci, like, that's just not necessarily the case. And it's not feasible because they don't have the money that is necessary to create a show experience like that.
- [07:00]
Morgan DeBaun
And then is there like a regulatory nature? Like who gets to decide what days people go and don't go? Like, how does that work?
- [07:08]
Nikki Okanaki
I mean, it depends on where you are in Paris. And in Milan, there is. There's, like, a governing body who sort of handles that. In New York, the CFDA weighs in on it. It used to be one person sort of, like, handles the entire calendar, and they would go out and, like, talk to all the designers. And to make that, you know, everyone is able to show at the right times, and the editors and the buyers and everyone can get from Brooklyn to Harlem to Midtown, and not in, like, a crazy way and be able to make all of these shows. It's gone a little off the rails in New York, I will say, but I think that the CFDA is doing a really good job of trying to bring it back together. So all of these designers do have an opportunity to show in their hometown.
- [07:49]
Morgan DeBaun
Incredible. Okay, so walk me behind the scenes of what happens, like, after you get back. So you just went to Milan. What happens after?
- [07:56]
Nikki Okanaki
What's going on now?
- [07:57]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah, like, what are you.
- [07:58]
Nikki Okanaki
Are you.
- [07:58]
Morgan DeBaun
Like, here's the things we loved. Like, what is it?
- [08:01]
Nikki Okanaki
That's a part of it, definitely. So New York Fashion Week is first, and then London and then Milan and then Paris. And this happens twice a year. Spring, summer, fall, winter. It's called Fashion Week, but usually it's four months, so we call it Fashion Month. And after Fashion Month, we all sort of come back, we have a meeting where we go over the trends that we want to back, the things that we think the Marie Claire woman really cares about, and we set off on writing our stories. We sort of plot stories that we want to write for our print magazine that comes out twice a year. The designers we want to interview for upcoming issues. And, yeah, the Fashion Month moment is sort of like the kickoff of that next trend cycle. And so from there, we figure out how we like action on all of those things.
- [08:50]
Morgan DeBaun
Okay, and what is the staff that is doing this? What is that role?
- [08:54]
Nikki Okanaki
So I have a staff of about 15 people across fashion and beauty and culture. The fashion team is, I believe, a team of six, I want to say. And they are the people who are at the shows. They are going backstage, they're speaking to the designers. We are taking social media content to put on our various platforms, working with our social team to say, like, hey, this moment just happened here. You know, we should get that up on Instagram or TikTok immediately. So the team is small compared to somewhere like Vogue or Harper's Bazaar or that sort of thing. But what's nice about working, I think, at, like, a lifestyle magazine, is that we don't have to cover every single fashion moment that happens, we can really think about our woman and what is applicable to her life and how that fits into her life. Like, we always say that our woman is trend oriented. She's not necessarily trend driven. So it's really about figuring out how certain trends that we see can work in her day to day.
- [09:54]
Morgan DeBaun
That makes sense. What are your thoughts on the rise of these influencers? Like, being invited to shows? Like, I saw the Jules. You know, the Demou.
- [10:04]
Nikki Okanaki
She was at Bottega.
- [10:06]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah, she was at Bottega. And I love it. I was fucking thrilled for her.
- [10:09]
Nikki Okanaki
I love it. I ran up to her and I was like, I love it. I saw her at the show and he was like, I love that you're here. I think it's so important that you're in this room. Not only does this sort of continue to democratize the space and democratize who is allowed in these spaces, but I think it's really important to sort of just be cognizant of the fact that, like, yes, these are trade shows in their essence, but, like, that's continuing to evolve. And I always say that everyone can eat, right? So there's space at this proverbial table for the influencers, for the substackers, for the editors, for the buyers, for the clients, which I personally think are the most important people in the room, the vics. And so I don't see a problem with opening up the space a little bit. And I'm not as precious about who's allowed in the room, because 10 years ago, 15 years ago, they would have looked at me and been like, oh, you're a website editor, you're a blogger. Like, what are you doing here? Like, print only. So I'm very cognizant of that sort of speak around who's allowed in these rooms. Because I just know that, like, 10 years ago, like, people looked down on the fact that I worked on the Internet.
- [11:16]
Morgan DeBaun
Right. Let's talk about your career. How did you get here?
- [11:19]
Nikki Okanaki
How did I get here? It was a cold day in 1986. No, I'm kidding. I graduated from UVA in 2007. And I knew that I wanted to move to New York, and I knew that I wanted to work in media. I'd done internships at Elle and Harper's Bazaar, and my sister let me sleep on her couch, and she helped me get my first internship. But she'd always said, like, don't embarrass me. And so I held that very close to my heart and just continued sort of to, like, Stack my. So my first job out of college was an unpaid internship@elle.com and from there I had worked at Vanity Fair, and I worked at InStyle. And when I was at Incyle, I applied for a digital job at Glamour. And I think that that is sort of like, where the trajectory of my career really changed. And I had friends who were just, like, in the nascent stages of blogging. And I saw all the opportunities they were getting. They were getting into these rooms, they were meeting new people, and hierarchy was so important in the print world. And I just knew that I wasn't going to be able to move up in the way that I want. Wanted to if I didn't make a change. And so I hopped over to digital@glamour.com so I worked at glamour.com for a couple of years, and then from there I went to Elle.com and that's where I say, like, I worked with an Avengers squad of women like Sally Holmes, who's the editor in chief of InStyle right now. Leia Chernikov, who's the executive editor of Harper's Bazaar, Julie Schott, who's the founder of Starface and Blip and all of these other, like, amazing brands. I was just surrounded by excellence there. And so, again, being able to work in that space was, like, really cool. And we were just young and just throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what stuck. Like, we really could try anything. There were no sort of guardrails, for better or for worse at that time. And from Elle.com, i went to GQ Print. I was a little burnt out after Elle.com and I was sort of like, do I want to be a digital director? I'm not really sure if that's what I want to do after working in fashion for so long. So I like to say I took a sabbatical and went to menswear for a year. The pandemic hit, though. And so working in print during the pandemic was a really crazy time. Like, we were trying to do photo shoots and get in clothing and get, you know, a camera to Rob Pattinson so he could shoot himself in London before the borders closed. Like, really, really crazy moments, you know, in 2019, like, I had an assistant bring me my computer, and then I, like, just didn't see the GQ team again. Basically, like, that was it. Because Harper's Bazaar came calling, and I became the digital director there for a couple years and was reunited with Sumir Nasser, who's the editor in chief there, and Leia and So at Bazaar, again, it was just surrounded by excellence. Like, Sumira is one of the smartest, most well dressed women who works in fashion today. And I felt so honored to be on her team during a time when there's a convergence of all of these things. Right. So it was 2020. The Black Lives Matter movement was taking off. We were coming out of the pandemic. Joe Biden was just elected. There was the insurrection. Like so many things were happening during that. Yeah, there's a lot, a lot going on during that time. And I felt very, you know, honored to sort of be a steward of Samira's vision in the digital sense for the site. But then Marie Claire came calling and that's how I ended up here. Hilary Kerr, who's the chief content officer at future, came to me and she had let me know that she'd sort of been watching me, I guess, on social and through all of the things that I've been doing. And she had me interview for this role. And it's been a year now that I've been here.
- [14:53]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah.
- [14:54]
Nikki Okanaki
What a journey. Wow.
- [14:55]
Morgan DeBaun
What a journey. I mean, that's incredible. I think you've been able to see a variety of leadership styles and also a variety of publications that are, you know, more tried and true industry, but then also lifestyle. To your point, Marie Claire, I think, has been so consistent with the voice and who they speak to, like professional women. And I'm curious, because of the digital world, because people are still partially, like, working remotely, like I work remotely. Our whole company is remote. Of course, we're seeing a huge mandate to return to the office. But also, our generation of women is doing a lot. We are like working women. We are moms. We are maybe not moms. We are like the cat ladies, as DT would say. You know, we are all the things. How have you had to evolve your own thinking about the multi hyphenate nature of women?
- [15:46]
Nikki Okanaki
Right. So one of the reasons why I was ready to come to Marie Claire is because Marie Claire has always been a space for women of substance. Right. It's. We say that it's a space for women of power, purpose and style. And that after everything that was going on in 2020, that really aligned with where I wanted to be in my life and the things that I wanted to talk about. I have plenty of friends who are becoming moms, going through, you know, fertility journeys, they are dating, they are founding their own businesses, they are negotiating for contracts. And all of those things are conversations that I've always been having in my Group chats. Right. And so when I went to Marie Claire, it was really important to me to be able to sort of bring that group chat to life in the pages of our magazine, which we publish twice a year, in our digital issues, which we publish four times a year or day to day stories that go up on the site, our social platforms, my podcast, my newsletter. So I think there was just an opportunity for me at Marie Claire to speak to this multi hyphenate woman in a way that working solely in fashion wasn't giving me. And I know that like the Marie Claire woman, yes, she cares about fashion, of course, but she cares about so many other things a lot. Right. And so it's really wonderful to be able to work at a lifestyle publication that can give her all of those things.
- [17:06]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah. I mean, when I go to the website, I'm like, oh, yeah, I didn't think about that. Let's talk about collagen.
- [17:12]
Nikki Okanaki
Yeah, like let's. Okay, so you don't have cortisol face. Right. And then these are the fall trends you should be wearing. And this is what's happened. Here's how you negotiate and here's how this person did buy their house. And I think that Marie Claire is one of those few spaces that still can give a woman sort of like that one stop shop.
- [17:30]
Morgan DeBaun
I completely agree. It's a really busy fall, we have an election. It's a tough time to be a woman. Like, I love being a woman, but I also, I had a baby 10 months ago, 11 months ago. So as a new mom, I'm also thinking through like, I live in Tennessee, he's a black boy.
- [17:48]
Nikki Okanaki
Wow.
- [17:49]
Morgan DeBaun
Are we gonna stay here? Are we not gonna stay here? Safety, gun laws. I mean, there's just so many things that as women I feel like we are thinking about any given day. And then at the same time I'm like, look at my Dyson airwrap. I love it. Like, I just feel like we contain.
- [18:04]
Nikki Okanaki
Mom and that's fine. And that's the thing that I think women get, they get in their heads about and they get really sort of like down on themselves about sometimes. Like, it's okay to like your Dyson hair wrap. Like it is a great product. Right. And it's okay to care about and you should care about gun laws and the safety of your little black boy that you are raising in Tennessee. Like, we cannot as women and we should not feel like we have to compartmentalize our interests. Right. Like men don't have to do that. No man is Ever asked to do that. And it's really only women who have to do that. And it's my mission to, when I think about Marie Claire, make it fine and make it acceptable and encourage women to bring all parts of themselves to the table.
- [18:47]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah, I think that's awesome. What are the things this fall that you all are really prioritizing? And how are you balancing the journalistic requirement of us all to be nonpartisan given the political climate? Like, you know, I'll tell you, at Blavity, we had all hands about it last year and said, like, as an employee at our company, what are your expectations of us as a place of work? What are your expectations of me as your leader?
- [19:15]
Nikki Okanaki
What'd they say?
- [19:17]
Morgan DeBaun
You know? Oh, it was fascinating. Yeah, I mean, I got a lot of, like, righteous, you know, down for the brow, like, people in our company as we should like, if not us, then literally where? Yeah, so they said a few things. They said they actually didn't want us to endorse candidates. They did not want us to pick individuals across up and down the ballot. And we weren't even just talking about the presidential election. And I thought that was smart. Like, I agreed with them, but I wanted to, you know, I knew what my preference was, but I wanted to hear from them what their preferences were. We had played it really safe in previous elections. We've gone both ways. We've had every presidential in the primaries. We've had every presidential person who was running for office. This was back when Cory Booker and Kamala and everybody. This was Hillary world in the office and do interviews. You know, we spent about a million dollars on our political coverage with no return on investment. But that was because that's what we wanted to do at the time. And then, you know, we've had election seasons where we are very neutral and just focused on get out the vote. And I think this election people were very much like, there are issues that adversely impact black people. And if our mission is to super serve and apply pressure for our demographic, then we need to be more vocal. So we hired political creators. That was the other thing we wanted it to be. Not our staff that had to have a point of view, but to pay other people who have a point of view that we are comfortable with to be the voice. So we paid content creators, and we're actively paying content creators on retainer to say, great, make 10 videos about the importance of these things. Highlight local issues that we know people might care about. So we hired someone for climate and racial equity and the social Impact and environmental impact of different decisions, different things on the ballot. And then we hired someone to talk about. She does what we call pretty girl politics. So she's like, get ready with me while we talk about da da da. You know. Yeah, the content is performing over our average normal content. It's doing very well.
- [21:19]
Nikki Okanaki
Yeah. I mean, I think that Marie Claire is approaching it in a similar way. Right. So we approach it through issues. So maternal health and abortion rights will always be and has always been an issue that is near and dear to Marie Claire readers and to Marie Claire. Right. And so we will cover the various aspects of that and how they present themselves when it comes to this election. Specifically, we are focusing on the female middle aged voter and getting more of those women to register to vote because we know that this section of women is often ignored. Right. And so it was important to me to speak directly to them and learn about them. And then we also know that they have a Gen Z person in their life that they can influence. And so you get like two birds with one stone. Right. And so we are doing a voter initiative package that is coming out in a couple weeks that speaks to all of that and to the issues that they care about and where they are sort of like in their, I guess, political journey. So we think about it more from an issue standpoint. I don't think that, and I won't pretend to think that Marie Claire is full of only liberal women and readers who live on the coast. I think that would be doing a disservice. And it's sort of how many places landed in thinking that Hillary was going to win this election. Right. Is because we sort of ignored all of the other people who live in this country and who passed that don't live on the coasts. And so as I said, I don't like to think that it's only coastal people who we have to pay attention to and we go at it through more of an issues based lens.
- [22:58]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah, I think that's important. And we've noticed too, same thing, Right. Like the black voter is unsure in some areas. In lots of areas, actually. And so this assumption that, you know.
- [23:08]
Nikki Okanaki
And conservative, like they can be a conservative person. Right. And so it's. We can't assume anything right now at all we know is that we need to talk about issues and that we need to encourage people to register to vote.
- [23:20]
Morgan DeBaun
Yes. And when you talk about facts, I would also argue, I mean, there's been, there's been a lot of.
- [23:25]
Nikki Okanaki
I was gonna say that goes without saying. However, we must say we need to talk about facts because that does not go without saying. It doesn't go.
- [23:32]
Morgan DeBaun
And I think that also what we've noticed on our pages, and I don't know if it's happening on your pages so much, we've noticed an increase of bots with keywords. So we know that if we post with the XYZ caption we're going to attract a lot of people who are look like they are real. It's in some ways race baiting our audience. And then it creates this whole conversation in the comments and I'm like, wait, you guys, these are not real people.
- [23:56]
Nikki Okanaki
Wow.
- [23:57]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah, it happens as every election. And I'm not exactly sure how to, I mean like we'll flag them, et cetera. But the level of bots, they're very smart. I mean, they're basically like they're duplicating other people's pages so that the page itself looks very real, but it's really just a copy paste of somebody else's page. And then they're commenting. So it's really hard to tell that they're not a real person.
- [24:20]
Nikki Okanaki
Yeah, that's so scary.
- [24:22]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah, it's very advanced.
- [24:23]
Nikki Okanaki
Yeah.
- [24:24]
Morgan DeBaun
And I'd imagine that it's probably more advanced than we even know because now that we can recognize it now, I'm sure it's been going on for so long.
- [24:30]
Nikki Okanaki
I mean, I'm like, I have chills. That is actually terrifying.
- [24:33]
Morgan DeBaun
It's really bad.
- [24:34]
Nikki Okanaki
Yeah.
- [24:34]
Morgan DeBaun
Same thing's happening on TikTok. The reason I actually got a hold of it and like started paying attention was because my TikTok kept getting cloned. So if you like search my name on TikTok, there's like 10 versions of me and they'll just change. Like an underscore, like, yeah, one or exclamation point. But they're DMing people. So I have women in my DMs who are like, hey, I was just having this conversation with TikTok. Just want to confirm it to you. And I'm like, it's definitely not me.
- [24:54]
Nikki Okanaki
Whoa.
- [24:55]
Morgan DeBaun
They're engaging with people.
- [24:57]
Nikki Okanaki
I'm terrified. So facts matter. Facts matter, Facts matter. Media literacy matters. Like all of that. It's really important.
- [25:06]
Morgan DeBaun
Very important. Yeah. Okay, so trends. Are we wearing suede or no?
- [25:11]
Nikki Okanaki
We're definitely wearing suede. 100% trends. Speaking of TikTok and the trend cycle, I hit my breaking point with trends over the summer. TikTok, it's a lot. And social media was really just on overdrive. And it really, it frustrated me a little bit because I just felt like it was. Is not fair to the average consumer. Right. Like it made you standard. The consumption is crazy. It's really crazy. You know, when we go from like clean girl aesthetic to mob wife to cottagecore to like countrycore, whatever. All you're saying is that you have to throw out your last wardrobe and buy a whole new wardrobe. And that is such a dangerous, like, just irresponsible message to send not only to younger people, but just people of any age. And so, yes, while I do love suede and have loved suede, suede is not new. Suede has been around since the 70s. Your mom was wearing suede. Suede is big in the 70s. It's coming back and the trend cycle again. Like, you just need to figure out and choose what works for your lifestyle. And so I'm much more interested in Marie Claire, you know, subsequently is much more interested. Yes, in trends, but also in personal style.
- [26:23]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah.
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Nikki Okanaki
And the fact that you can't buy personal style, you need to have like a lived experience to then develop your personal style.
- [26:31]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah, I think it's really actually challenging for the everyday woman. I'm going to speak for myself. Like, when I first started my company, I felt like I had to dress like a Silicon Valley startup founder, which at the time meant, like very androgynous, all black jeans, black boots. So I had a little height and then my startup T shirt, you know, and that was my uniform. Like, I remember moving from San Francisco to LA and having a box full of poverty T shirts because, like, that was my, you know, really.
- [26:59]
Nikki Okanaki
What's your real style, though?
- [27:01]
Morgan DeBaun
I don't know yet.
- [27:03]
Nikki Okanaki
I was like, that can't be your real style.
- [27:05]
Morgan DeBaun
No, gosh, no. I have thrown all of those out. Like, I'll occasionally wear a blabbery T shirt, but like, not often. But like, I am still trying to figure out my style. I think that it's been really hard.
- [27:16]
Nikki Okanaki
For me, actually, because motherhood as well, I'm assuming.
- [27:19]
Morgan DeBaun
Yes. Actually not as much momhood, more so like feminine. Like allowing myself to be feminine. So as a female executive, I was very cautious about coming off as feminine and distracting men, although I'm sure they should be able to control themselves. And all the things I still felt like as a pretty ish woman.
- [27:39]
Nikki Okanaki
So your heels can't be too high.
- [27:41]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah, I didn't want to be, you know, boobs out. I didn't want like I was hair, back, glasses on for a few years. Like, even like I kept My curly, curly hair. Like, I did not straighten my hair. Like, I was very hyper aware of. I do not want to distract these men because I had to have business dinners. I had to have let's meet up for happy hour and have this conversation. And I didn't want it to turn into something else. Something else. And honestly, at times it did turn into something else. Of like, one of my boyfriends was a VC. Two of my boyfriends were a VC in my 20s, you know, and I learned a lot. It was like, you know.
- [28:15]
Nikki Okanaki
Yeah, yeah, but like.
- [28:18]
Morgan DeBaun
And they were great men, by the way. I was not. Don't y'all come after me. I was. They were great men.
- [28:24]
Nikki Okanaki
They are good men. It's okay.
- [28:27]
Morgan DeBaun
But also, I didn't want every interaction to be that way. So then I kind of went into the don't look at me, let's talk about our business. And then as I became more of a public figure, then I had what I would call show clothes. Like, I'm on stage in front of 30,000 people at Grace Hopper. I can't blend in. Like, I need.
- [28:46]
Nikki Okanaki
Yeah, like, what are your panel pants? Pants? Or like, what are you wearing? Yeah, that's a. I mean, that's really interesting that you talk about that. I think it all, again, sort of boils down to figuring out your personal style. Right. And what I think is confusing when it comes to TikTok and when it comes to Instagram is there are so many sort of like definitions or words or ways to study. Like. Yeah, there are just so many, like, prescriptive, I think, sort of ways that people talk about style instead of doing the way you would sort of figure out your personal style before social media, which is like, like examining your day to day, examining what your life brings you. Sitting outside, people watching, like sitting on a park bench somewhere, people watching, being like, oh, I like that. I think I have something kind of similar like that at home. Or I can finesse these genes to sort of, like, look like that. The sort of, like, introspection that it takes to really develop your personal style has been lost because these social media platforms or TV or anything, we just have so much fed to us. Yeah, that tells you how to do personal style as opposed to, like, really cultivate it.
- [29:50]
Morgan DeBaun
And I think that's what's hard is, like, I don't feel like I have a consistent look. Like sometimes I go to meetings and people are like, they don't even recognize me. You know, I'm like, this is just what I look like today. You Know, and my weight also, I'm 411, so my weight fluctuates.
- [30:01]
Nikki Okanaki
You're 411?
- [30:02]
Morgan DeBaun
Yes. I'm super short. So yeah, me and Sabrina Carpenter, so we are short ladies. And so my weight fluctuates. You know, I gained 45 pounds when I got pregnant. So all of those cute little size 2 size 4 things, I went up to size 10. So I believe in my general, like, women will fluctuate. So I just put everything in storage, hoping one day in a couple years we'll get back to that size. But, you know, all that stuff was tailored to the gods. So I'm like, there ain't no way to squeeze back into this va, va, boom.
- [30:35]
Nikki Okanaki
And listen, you may not want to. What I think is also interesting is that, you know, putting that stuff in storage gives you the opportunity again to like work with the small sort of subset of clothing that you may have and really think, like, is this something that I need in my life or is this something that I can just appreciate from afar? Like this Fashion Week, there were people walking around in 6 inch Prada heels and I loved it. I was like, this is so, so cute. But then I had to like talk to myself and really be like, girl, you run around this city all the time. You hate taking cars, you prefer to take the subway, you prefer to walk like. Like that 6 inch heel is just something that you have to appreciate from afar. Like art. It's like art. You just look at it. It's never going to be in your home one day. And that's fine, right? Because you can just be like, that's cute. But in my day to day, it's more of like a 2 inch Prada pump. And that's cool.
- [31:30]
Morgan DeBaun
And that's fine too. Yeah, I definitely have a row of Gucci heels that I will probably never put on again.
- [31:36]
Nikki Okanaki
Decoration or sell it and get some shoes that you can actually wear. You know, it's up to you.
- [31:42]
Morgan DeBaun
It's definitely hard to part ways with things. I think the other thing that I've really been curious about and I wonder what your thoughts were on this platform. But like to know it, you know, people are using it really like a storefront in some ways. Like these women are sellers, you know, they're business women. They're business women.
- [31:57]
Nikki Okanaki
They are business women. And it is fascinating to watch. I remember having a meeting with the team behind, like to know it when they first.
- [32:06]
Morgan DeBaun
They're amazing.
- [32:07]
Nikki Okanaki
So when they first, first launched and I was like, oh, this is, is gonna be something because in the way that we have sort of like, you know, you had your Mary Kay women and you had your Amway women. Like, these people have just figured out another way to make loads of money. And there are women who are like, listen, I don't have time to figure out my personal style. Like, you look good. That's what I want to look like. Click, click, click, click, click, click. Thanks. Like, goodbye. Moving on to the next. And so these, you know, women who are using Shopmyer, like, to know it, are like, personal shoppers for people, and they develop these relationships with their followers, and they are quite lucrative because of the relationship that they're able to cultivate.
- [32:46]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah, it's really incredible. It's like they're walking billboards. And they are also what I've noticed. I think one of the challenges that I have with it is, like, oh, you're just buying this stuff to show us so that we would then go buy the thing.
- [33:01]
Nikki Okanaki
So it's a circle.
- [33:02]
Morgan DeBaun
It's a really terrible circle. So, like, there's no way you need all this stuff. Like, there's this one woman that I follow that as dupes on the yellow. Yellow app. I haven't bought anything.
- [33:11]
Nikki Okanaki
I don't believe in dupe culture.
- [33:13]
Morgan DeBaun
I'm so tempted. Like, I want to be like, nah. But I just love to look at it.
- [33:19]
Nikki Okanaki
Listen, it's so hard. Dupe culture is so complicated. I think it has gone through a really pretty rebrand. Rebrand?
- [33:28]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah.
- [33:29]
Nikki Okanaki
Somehow knockoffs became dupes.
- [33:31]
Morgan DeBaun
No, I saw. But wait, are we talking about.
- [33:33]
Nikki Okanaki
So we're talking about knockoffs, which have been rebranded as dupes, and that is, you know, whatever. That's just, like, how culture sort of exists and redefines itself. But I am more interested in the people who don't copy and paste and go through the exercise of digging in their closets and figuring out, again, like, how they can finesse something to make it work, rather than, like, buying the Amazon version of it or, like, vintage.
- [33:57]
Morgan DeBaun
I think the problem, the challenge, in my opinion, the reason why dupes have made a resurgence is because they can be mass produced and mass consumed. Previously, we were all vintage and thrifting. And, like, there was a vintage shop here in Nashville that I loved that was, like, vintage luxury. And, like, I would go and I would shop it, and, like, that would just be, like, part of my activities. And it was so fun. Like, I would save up my money to be like, okay, I'm gonna. I want a Chanel bag. And, like, I would go and, you Know, Nashville has so many glamorous country music stars that they have these crazy wardrobes that they only wear two, three times. The stuff is pristine.
- [34:28]
Nikki Okanaki
Yeah.
- [34:29]
Morgan DeBaun
And. And that was so fun. The challenge with thrifting is you cannot mass consume it. So if you're a thrifter and someone's like, oh, my God, I love this look. I love this thing. You can't, like, pop up a light to know it because it's gone.
- [34:41]
Nikki Okanaki
Right, Exactly. But there used to be a sense of, like, oh, it's vintage. Like, I remember when I moved to New York, if you were wearing Zara or H and M, you never said that. You said you were wearing vintage. There's more prestige. Or there was more prestige and being like, oh, it's vintage. Like, I need that. I hunted for this. I spent my time like, I have an understanding heirloom. Love an heirloom. Oh, it was. You know, it's personal jewelry. What's that mean? Oh, it's been handed down through generations.
- [35:12]
Morgan DeBaun
It's costume jewelry from my grandma.
- [35:14]
Nikki Okanaki
Right, exactly. But that's very chic. Right. And so there was sort of like, this prestige and saying that it's vintage, but now I think there is more prestige and, like, sadly looking like everyone else or copying and pasting your favorite influencer's look instead of, like, creating it on your own.
- [35:32]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah. The definition of an it girl is that you have figured out, with your economic status, how to look like these women that are aspirational. And it's everything from the filler structure to the hair. Like, all the people doing the Mormon wives, like, curl. I'm like, don't do the Mormon Wives curl.
- [35:48]
Nikki Okanaki
You don't have to. There are other ways to look cool. I promise. There are other ways to look cool.
- [35:53]
Morgan DeBaun
I agree. And I think it's just the effort, though, to your point, like, it does require an intentionality. And we're also busy, so I hope that even for myself personally, I have tried to not buy as much. So, like, if I am doing a show run, like, I have Aphratech coming up, and we're looking at different things, I'm like, okay, can I work with a black designer? Like, can I say, hey, I have this thing, and how can I make this helpful? Use this as a moment to be helpful to other people, does it require more effort? Yes, of course.
- [36:23]
Nikki Okanaki
Yeah. And planning.
- [36:24]
Morgan DeBaun
And planning. But, like, also, if I view my life as different moments and milestones, looking back and saying, you know what? I really loved that look because it was designed by my friend Nicole Linnell. And like, that was amazing. That to me matters versus there's definitely shows that I've done where I'm like, I couldn't tell you what I wore.
- [36:43]
Nikki Okanaki
It's like, who knows? And it's like, where did you get it from? And for me, I think a lot about my life through clothing and through what I've wor. Worn for these special moments. And I have a lot of pieces from 10, 15 years ago. My first Chanel bag that I ever bought myself. Like, those things are very sentimental to me. And as you said, that's very hard to part with those things. And so I think it's important, honestly to shop in that way rather than just sort of buying the Amazon knockoff. Because you can.
- [37:13]
Morgan DeBaun
Because you can. Switching gears, one more topic. I am a 2025 bride.
- [37:18]
Nikki Okanaki
Nice.
- [37:19]
Morgan DeBaun
Which is so fun. And I'm curious how you all approach the milestones in women's lives, like, from an editorial perspective. Like, you guys aren't a bridal magazine, obviously, but you do.
- [37:29]
Nikki Okanaki
And the bridal industrial complex is so wild to me, it is crazy.
- [37:34]
Morgan DeBaun
I have been shocked at the level of consumerism it's in this industry. And I actually just did a tech talk. I was like, are you guys going into debt? Because I, I'm rich and I can afford this, but I don't want to, I don't want to pay these bars.
- [37:49]
Nikki Okanaki
Everyone is going into debt over all of the things that people have to do for weddings, for bridal showers, for baby showers, for all of the stones, the bachelorettes, all of those things. You know, when I think about weddings specifically, because at Harper's Bazaar, we did cover weddings and we covered a lot of really, really expensive weddings. But, you know, the joke internally was like, just go to a store and say that you want a white dress. Like, don't say wedding anywhere. Ever tell people that you're throwing a party for 150 people and you need to wear a white dress. Right. Because the second you say wedding, it becomes a whole other production and you find yourself going into debt over like, flowers and table settings.
- [38:30]
Morgan DeBaun
Well, what's fascinating is actually the dress has been like the most reasonable part. Like, I've gone into different dress shops and like, oh, this is like $2,000. Like, that's fine. And then I try out a $10,000 dress and it's like, like a marginal difference, maybe like beating in details, like that kind of stuff. But I'm a simple girl, so I'm not going to be like, glam, glam you know, that's not my problem. It's the venues. It's like all the bells and whistles like everything else. I just think that like, as people who do thought leadership on behalf of others, like we have to all come together and really say, hey, you don't have to do it this way.
- [39:04]
Nikki Okanaki
You definitely don't have to do it this way. I find weddings in particular to be very, very interesting. And I'm seeing a new trend where people are just sort of being like, you know what, we're just going to do city hall and we're going to buy a house instead or we're going to do city hall and we're going to have a small intimate dinner. Especially people in New York where weddings, you want to have like a baseline sort of run of the mill wedding, it's going to cost you $60,000. Minimum, minimum, minimum. And you have to decide if that's the amount of money that you want to spend on these things. And so. Yeah. When in terms of like thought leadership, I think the number one thing that we think about when we discuss weddings is just making sure that. But everyone knows that they don't have to do it in a specific way. And then also like when you see these weddings on Vogue weddings, or when you see these weddings on Bizarre weddings, brides, whatever, like, these people are rich. They're very, very wealthy.
- [39:52]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah.
- [39:52]
Nikki Okanaki
These are women and men, princesses, princes. Like, this is not.
- [39:57]
Morgan DeBaun
But even saying that I'm like, there are women who are like, I want to be perceived like that.
- [40:02]
Nikki Okanaki
It's not worth it.
- [40:03]
Morgan DeBaun
It's not worth it. I don't think it's worth it either.
- [40:05]
Nikki Okanaki
It's not worth it.
- [40:06]
Morgan DeBaun
I don't think it's worth it. And I'm like, the budget for Afrotech is in the millions. Like, I know what it costs to do million dollar productions. It. No, thank you.
- [40:13]
Nikki Okanaki
Right. And that's the thing that as I do more events for Marie Claire, you know, we put on this event twice a year called Power Play. Right. And I know what it costs to put on an event like that. Feed these people. Right? Feed these people to like put them up in hotels. All of the things. Like this is a very expensive proposition for eight hours of your day. Now look, I don't want to knock it because oftentimes this is the most like, glamorous, a special moment of somebody's day. But there's so much life after it.
- [40:42]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah.
- [40:43]
Nikki Okanaki
That you probably should spend your money on, not necessarily just this one day. So just like keeping that in mind as well is really important.
- [40:50]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah, I. I think that's also fair. We do have to acknowledge that we live glamorous lives. We get glammed all the time. We have photos taken of us. We have once a quarter at a minimum.
- [40:59]
Nikki Okanaki
Yeah.
- [41:00]
Morgan DeBaun
We're doing a whole thing probably more like once a month. So I have to acknowledge that. That.
- [41:04]
Nikki Okanaki
But it's so much money.
- [41:06]
Morgan DeBaun
It's a lot of cash. And to me, I'm like, not just money, it's post tax cash.
- [41:10]
Nikki Okanaki
Yes.
- [41:11]
Morgan DeBaun
It looks like we're talking personal money that could be invested in the compounding industry. Don't get me started. But yes. Okay. Anything else that you want women to know? And how can women connect with you? How can they support the work that you're doing? The publishing industry, it's continuing to go through different transformations. We didn't even talk about AI and all those things. That's for another day. But like, like, what do you want us to know?
- [41:34]
Nikki Okanaki
I mean, I think the number one thing that everyone needs to know is that you have to support journalism. Right? And the way you support journalism is through your dollars. So don't skip over the paywall. Subscribe. Pay the money to your favorite substackers. Pay the money for your subscription to your magazines to the newspapers. Like, the money that you're paying is going towards fact checking. Right. And so that's really important when we're going into an election. If you want journalism or if you value journalism, you have to pay for it. I think for a very long time, we've gotten around having to spend our own money on these things. Right. Because of the advertising complex that used to support magazines or supported newspapers. But now the industry has changed and we really need financial support from people. So that's the number one thing.
- [42:25]
Morgan DeBaun
I have been so hesitant to charge our readers for blappity because I also know that once you do start people paying for things, it also comes with a level of customer service and a level of accuracy. And there's a middle ground that's actually very hard to maintain in terms of quality of journalism. 5,000 people or 10,000 people paying us 599 would actually not be enough to support the level of journalism that somebody's perception of them paying. 5.99. Right, okay.
- [42:57]
Nikki Okanaki
Because for 5.99 you think you get this and it's like, no, this is what that supports. But I do think that there should be maybe more transparency around that then. Right. So like, we have this column on MC called the Cost of Starting your own business. Right. And you should actually be in it. We'll talk about that later. But it's like the mental and emotional costs of starting your own business. Right. But also the financial implications of starting your own business. And I don't think that people talk about it enough. And so the people who are paying these subscriptions think that, that, well, I paid this, so you owe me this. Or you can only talk about, like, what I am paying for. Right. Or what I think you should talk about. But, like, that's not how these industries work. And so we need to be a little more transparent and a little more open about how they do work so people understand, like, where their dollars are going. Right. NPR does it. Wikipedia does it.
- [43:48]
Morgan DeBaun
Like, yeah, PBS does it. I think it's something that we've played with, like, time and time again. And we're also considering even a model where it's like, oh, okay, you guys can support the political writer. Like, we even thought for this election season because again, we don't make any money when we cover political stuff because all of our advertisers block those keywords. We're not going to get into it. But.
- [44:07]
Nikki Okanaki
But pay wall that stuff, and then I'm sure you'll find subscribers who want it and who will pay for it.
- [44:12]
Morgan DeBaun
Right, Exactly. So we've thought about that. But then the logistics of it all, we're like, oh, we'll just compel.
- [44:17]
Nikki Okanaki
Keep it moving.
- [44:19]
Morgan DeBaun
But I think eventually, unfortunately for a media business, we're going to have to move that direction. And I'm not looking forward to it. I'll be honest.
- [44:27]
Nikki Okanaki
I know it's tough. I think that we've seen various ways that people can do it. Right. And so there's like, Maybe you get 3 articles for free a month and then you pay for the rest. I just know that when I look at New York Magazine, that is a subscription that I will always pay for. The New York Times, Washington Post, those are places that I will always pay for because the journalism is good. It's not just good, it's actually excellent. And the caliber is. Is worth the money. And you need to invest in good journalism.
- [44:54]
Morgan DeBaun
Yeah.
- [44:54]
Nikki Okanaki
Like literal democracy depends on it.
- [44:57]
Morgan DeBaun
I know we all talk about democracy, but I'm like, we're literally actually talking about democracy. People actually is not a given.
- [45:03]
Nikki Okanaki
No. And it actually depends on it. Especially when we're dealing with, you know, tick tock or whatever other social platforms where misinformation is just, like, rampant. We need people who can say, people with context and People with actual contact places to say, no, that is not true.
- [45:19]
Morgan DeBaun
Yes, we spoke to the White House.
- [45:21]
Nikki Okanaki
I know the person in the White House, not this random bot on the Internet that is pretending to know them. Like, no, we spoke to the White House. Like, not everyone can just do that, you know? And so totally we have to support that work.
- [45:33]
Morgan DeBaun
I think so too. I think you've encouraged me to rethink through my team. If we want to explore that model with. With Vlavity again. Yes. Thank you so much for being here, Nikki. This was so fun.
- [45:43]
Nikki Okanaki
Of course. This is great. Had so much fun.
- [45:45]
Morgan DeBaun
Okay, so everyone can connect with you on your social.
- [45:49]
Nikki Okanaki
Yes. Yeah. So you can follow me on Nikki Ogoon on Instagram, mostly TikTok. I'm there, but I'm scrolling and lurking, so you won't find me doing any dances or anything of the sort. Yet. Yet. And then season two of my podcast is coming back. So Nice Talk is a Marie Claire podcast where we talk about money, power and style. Three of my very favorite topics. And that's coming back in October, so you can listen then.
- [46:15]
Morgan DeBaun
Well, thank you for being here today. And you guys go subscribe to the pod so you get the episodes when they drop.
- [46:20]
Nikki Okanaki
Thank you.
- [46:21]
Morgan DeBaun
See you all later. Bye. Thanks for listening to the Journey podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you leave a review and head to our Instagram and YouTube to leave a comment. I look forward to hearing how this podcast has made an impact on your own Journey.