A Casual Culinary Chat About Casseroles With Nicole Kondra

Summary

The Joy of Cooking Podcast – Episode Summary: "A Casual Culinary Chat About Casseroles With Nicole Kondra"

Release Date: February 12, 2025

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Introduction and Spicy Salsa Banter (00:00 – 02:39)

The episode kicks off with Sarah Marshall stepping in as host in the absence of Shannon Larson. She introduces herself with a charming personal touch:

Sarah Marshall [00:39]: "I am a lover of small farms, tinned fish, and pickles."

Megan Scott and John Becker join the conversation, each sharing playful snippets about their current culinary experiments. John reveals his latest endeavor:

John Becker [01:31]: "I'm in my candy and citrus phase of seasonal coping, and sometimes I make uncomfortably spicy salsa."

This leads to a light-hearted exchange about John's overly spicy salsas, highlighting his creative yet fiery approach to cooking.

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Guest Introduction: Nicole Kondra (08:11 – 15:41)

The podcast warmly welcomes Nicole Kondra, a professionally trained cook who currently works as a nanny. Megan introduces Nicole with enthusiasm:

Megan Scott [08:11]: "This week's guest is our dear friend, Nicole Kondra."

Nicole shares her extensive experience in recipe testing for the 2019 edition of Joy of Cooking, detailing the demanding nature of her role:

Nicole Kondra [09:13]: "I think that you guys put 20 per week in my Evernote file... I felt like I never met my quota."

She discusses the challenges of grocery shopping for multiple recipes and the constant juggle between her professional duties and personal cooking endeavors.

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Recipe of the Week: Broccoli Cheese Casserole (29:48 – 33:37)

Transitioning into the main topic, the hosts introduce the week's featured recipe: a classic Broccoli Cheese Casserole from page 221 of the 2019 edition. John elaborates on the ingredients and preparation:

John Becker [19:11]: "It's got a delicious... Romano cheese, corn flakes, and... a bechamel made with cheese."

Megan and Nicole share their enthusiasm, describing how the casserole is both simple and satisfying without relying on condensed soups, emphasizing the freshness and quality of the ingredients.

Nicole adds a personal touch by recounting her variation of the recipe, which includes Cheez-Its as a topping:

Nicole Kondra [30:12]: "I did make my own for that. It does use condensed soup, but I did make my own... the Cheez-Its are the crowning jewel."

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Casserole Discussions and Historical Recipes (33:37 – 51:22)

The conversation delves deeper into the history and evolution of casserole recipes within Joy of Cooking. Nicole reminisces about testing various versions:

John Becker [50:13]: "The 1997 edition had a moussaka recipe that called for a bechamel that was made with yogurt and olive oil."

The hosts and Nicole explore the complexities of traditional eggplant casseroles, referencing different editions of the cookbook and the inclusion of unique ingredients like oysters:

Nicole Kondra [49:14]: "It's like, kind of smoky, salty. Yeah, I could see it."

They discuss the adaptability of casseroles and share anecdotes about family traditions centered around these hearty dishes, highlighting the emotional and cultural significance of casseroles in various households.

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Listener Q&A and Personal Cooking Stories (51:22 – 61:36)

The podcast transitions to a heartfelt listener question from Dave Stone about his grandmother's eggplant casserole recipe. The hosts and Nicole engage in a nostalgic discussion, attempting to pinpoint the exact recipe from the cookbook editions:

Sarah Marshall [45:10]: "She gave me a heavy cast iron pot and I layer it with sliced eggplant."

Nicole shares her struggles and insights from her recipe testing days, emphasizing the importance of adaptability in home kitchens:

Nicole Kondra [25:01]: "I think what I realized when I was in culinary school... I really like to cook because I really like to take care of people."

Megan and John contribute by reflecting on their own experiences and the evolution of their cooking practices, especially when catering to various dietary needs and preferences.

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Casserole Memories and Traditions (61:36 – 56:57)

The hosts and Nicole delve into cherished family memories associated with casseroles, discussing the labor and love poured into these dishes during gatherings:

Megan Scott [52:06]: "There was always chicken casserole, sausage casserole... squash casserole with cheddar cheese in it. That is a top tier casserole."

Nicole relates these memories to her professional life, illustrating how her passion for cooking thrives in both personal and professional settings:

Nicole Kondra [36:01]: "I have some weeks where I'm better at it than others... I really identify with that and want to do more of that."

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Upcoming Culinary Plans and Final Thoughts (56:57 – End)

As the episode draws to a close, the hosts share their culinary plans for the week, discussing a spicy Italian sausage soup and the versatility of carrots in various dishes. Nicole offers creative ideas for incorporating roasted carrots into meals, reflecting her inventive approach to cooking.

Megan wraps up the episode by encouraging listeners to engage with the podcast and share their culinary creations on social media:

Megan Scott [63:04]: "Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram @thejoyofcooking. Stay tuned for next week where we'll tackle shallots."

Sarah and John express gratitude towards their production team, signing off with warmth and anticipation for future episodes.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Nicole Kondra [09:13]: "I think that you guys put 20 per week in my Evernote file... I felt like I never met my quota."

• John Becker [19:11]: "It's got a delicious... Romano cheese, corn flakes, and... a bechamel made with cheese."

• Nicole Kondra [25:01]: "I think what I realized when I was in culinary school... I really like to cook because I really like to take care of people."

• Megan Scott [52:06]: "There was always chicken casserole, sausage casserole... squash casserole with cheddar cheese in it. That is a top tier casserole."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Joy of Cooking Podcast offers a rich exploration of casseroles, blending historical insights from the cookbook with personal anecdotes from guest Nicole Kondra. Listeners are treated to a blend of practical cooking advice, nostalgic memories, and heartfelt discussions about the role of food in nurturing relationships and traditions. The inclusion of notable quotes and timestamped highlights ensures that both regular listeners and newcomers can easily follow and engage with the content.

For those eager to dive deeper into the world of casseroles or seeking inspiration for their next culinary project, this episode serves as a delightful and informative guide.

Transcript

[Nicole Kondra]

Sa.

[Sarah Marshall]

Hello and welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for a discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of Joy of Cooking cookbook, kitchen victories and misadventures, and most importantly, what we are cooking and eating right now. We're glad you've joined us at the table today. I'm Sarah Marshall, filling in for Shannon. I am a lover of small farms, tinned fish, and pickles.

[Megan Scott]

I'm Megan Scott, co author of the 2019 Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night. And my body is composed of about 85% citrus fruits. Right now.

[John Becker]

That's my fault. I'm John Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook. I'm in my candy and citrus phase of seasonal coping, and sometimes I make uncomfortably spicy salsa.

[Megan Scott]

Tell us about your spicy salsa. What did you do?

[John Becker]

Well, it's actually like, kind of came about because of the candying of the citrus. I bought too many sour oranges for like a batch of marmalade, and so I juiced the rest of them and I ended up making a habanero citrus hot sauce. It's actually from the book and yeah, I made it too spicy. Or maybe, maybe it's just where I'm at right now. Maybe I'm more sensitive than usual. I don't know.

[Megan Scott]

A little tender. A little tender.

[Sarah Marshall]

Why didn't you bring it here?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, why didn't you bring it?

[Sarah Marshall]

I mean, I would have guzzled it.

[John Becker]

Well, I can go get it right now. It's fine.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yes. No, you have to stay here. Dang it.

[Megan Scott]

So you made it while I was gone this weekend?

[John Becker]

Right, Right. Made that and also a fried serrano salsa that was also too spicy. And I blame that on the supermarket where I got these serranos because they were gigantic and I don't know, I mean, I probably should have bit into one just to test it to see, but. Yeah, no, I mean, live dangerously. Sure. That.

[Megan Scott]

Live deliciously.

[John Becker]

Yeah. Fried serrano salsa. Roberto Santa Bania's recipe. Very good. Definitely. Like one of our standbys.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's from his book, Truly Mexican.

[John Becker]

That's right.

[Megan Scott]

Can you describe how the salsa is made? Because it's. It's really interesting and it's. It's so good. We make it all the time.

[John Becker]

You just have, you know, trim the stems and. Oh, what is that? What is the thing around the stem? It has a fun name. Is it a Calyx? Yes. I trim the calyx? Yeah, I guess you don't have to stem. And calyx come off of each of the serranos. You leave them whole and. And you heat up some. I use vegetable oil. He. I think he calls for like. Like a mild olive oil, which I. You know, we don't have mild olive oil around ever, so. Yeah, vegetable oil. You fry them until they get a little bit blistered on all sides, and then you put them in a blender, and then you put in a quarter cup of diced onion into the oil, and you let that kind kind of get a little bit brown around the edges, and then you put it in the blender. Little bit of salt. I think it's a quarter cup of water. And then you're supposed to add the frying oil after it cools down. But I. I generally just add. I'm. I'm. I guess I'm a wasteful person, but I'll just. You know, I don't have the patience for that. I want the salsa now, so I just add maybe a little bit less than a quarter cup of olive oil to that.

[Megan Scott]

Okay. Fresh oil?

[John Becker]

Yeah, fresh oil.

[Megan Scott]

Using the frying oil.

[John Becker]

Right. This time I used some chicken bouillon powder, which was a good decision.

[Megan Scott]

Good call.

[John Becker]

That was a good call.

[Megan Scott]

Do you have any left? Is there any leftover? I missed it?

[John Becker]

Yeah, there's some.

[Megan Scott]

Okay.

[John Becker]

So, yeah, I just went. I put way too much of it on some tostadas. Yeah. Ouch.

[Megan Scott]

What about you, Sarah? Did you cook anything fun this week, or do you eat anything memorable?

[Sarah Marshall]

Well, I. I did. I cooked a few things, so I was going out of town. So I make my daughter this almond cake that I just have the recipe memorized because it's what she likes to eat for breakfast. So it's just two cups of almond flour, one cup of sugar, four eggs, and you whisk the eggs till they're really, really, really fluffy. And then you just put it all in with a little almond extract and vanilla. And then you dust it with powdered sugar. And she probably eats that more than anything. And I always make it kind of when I'm leaving so that while I'm gone, she has something to eat that reminds her of me. And she feels good having this breakfast in the morning. So I made that before I was going out of town, and then we were at the beach together. So my assigned thing to make was chips and dips, which is, like, my favorite thing to make. So I always bring lots of, like, pickley things and hot sauces to make those chips and dips. So I, I never really, like, go recipe, you know, I'm just like, oh, I'm going to make a salmon dip. So I used smoked salmon that my friend had caught and smoked. So just did some, like, dill and cream cheese and then our habanero karakori hot sauce. So that was rad with, with pickles, of course.

[Megan Scott]

And it was very good. I loved the chunks of pickle in there. That was delicious.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, I mean, like, how can, how can you go wrong with, like, pieces of pickle and smoky salmon and dill and herbs, you know, it was like, just great. You know, tomatoes, of course, are not in season, but to make them taste good, I just like, soak them in hot sauce. And so I did that. I did like tomatoes with basil and hot sauce and pickled peppers and just pita chips. So that was, that was my, like, quick and easy. But it, like, got us through through to the next meal. But then there was, like, more to eat all throughout the weekend. You know, I made a lot. And then that's it. That's like, that's my quick and easy chip and dip recipe.

[Megan Scott]

I love a dip.

[John Becker]

I have to remember that strategy. Just putting tomatoes in hot sauce.

[Sarah Marshall]

It kind of makes it so that it's like, it doesn't matter that they don't taste like anything, you know?

[Megan Scott]

Sure. Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

I have been eating a bunch of mandarin quats because they're in season right now, and they're my favorite citrus fruit in the whole world. And so I'm just feasting on them as. As I can get them. And they're like nature's sour candy. They're like kumquats in that the, the peel is sweet and the inside is sour. But the, they're a little bit bigger. Like, I'd say they're like ping pong ball size. Ish. Would you say?

[John Becker]

Oh, they're bigger.

[Megan Scott]

Okay.

[John Becker]

It's a teardrop. It's a teardrop shape, so you could fit a ping pong ball inside for sure.

[Megan Scott]

I haven't. I've actually never played ping pong, so I don't even know.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's like if a ping pong ball wore a little cone hat.

[Megan Scott]

But they're nice and sour and really juicy and I just can't get enough of them this time of year.

[John Becker]

Yeah, I tried candying some using Camilla Wynn's recipe, author of a recently released book called Nature's Candy. Yeah, I should have brought those, but they turned out pretty good. You know, it's Kind of a multi day thing where you just keep on adding more sugar and you bring it up to a little simmer for 10 minutes each day. The drying, I don't know. There's an optional treatment that you can do to allow the fruit to keep its shape better. Camilla recommends pickling lime, but, yeah, it was just like a bridge too far. So maybe next time. Also alum, I guess, is another option. So, yeah, maybe try both.

[Megan Scott]

Do you have any plans for what you're going to do with the. Now that we have the candied fruit, what are we going to do with it?

[John Becker]

Well, I have been eating them.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, you've just been eating it?

[John Becker]

It's a very small batch, so there's not a ton of, like, candied Mandarin quad to get rid of.

[Megan Scott]

I might make a pound cake or something, I feel like. Or an olive oil cake and put some in there. Like dice them up and put it in there. That sounds good to me.

[John Becker]

Maybe liquor them up with some orange stuff, some dry Curacao.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. So this week's guest is our dear friend, Nicole Kondra. She is professionally trained. She went to culinary school. However, she's not currently working in food. But one of our goals for the show was to have friends on who are not necessarily pro cooks are working in food right now because we just love talking to home cooks about what they're making. And we think that you can learn a lot from home cooks because they're just in the weeds every day in their little kitchens and with their imperfect setups and limitations, like being limited in time or. I feel like you learn more that way sometimes than you do when you have all of the things you could ever want. So all of that is to say, Nicole, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[Nicole Kondra]

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

[Megan Scott]

So Nicole tested recipes for our 2019 edition. Nicole, do you have any idea how many recipes you ended up testing? Like, rough ballpark?

[Nicole Kondra]

I think that you guys put 20 per week in my Evernote file.

[Megan Scott]

That sounds like so many now that you say that.

[Nicole Kondra]

And I was two days a week, and I felt like I never met my quota.

[Megan Scott]

Well, that was too many recipes a week.

[Nicole Kondra]

I was also working as a personal chef at the time, as well as cooking for my then husband and I at night. And it was a lot of cooking. It was. It was a lot. If I had to do the math, I did that for at least, I think it was like two years, right?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, you did it for a while.

[Nicole Kondra]

Part of that was actually full time every, every day. So my externship actually for culinary school was with the joy of cooking. And so that was my Monday through Friday grind. Wild time.

[John Becker]

Agreed.

[Megan Scott]

Would you sh. How would you grocery shop? Like, did you try to get everything on one day for the week or would you spread it out?

[Nicole Kondra]

Well, I remember that we had. You would dump the recipes for the week, and then I could kind of pick and choose how I wanted to break that up. But make a giant master shopping list and then do a big shop. I remember at the time, I feel like curbside pickup for groceries was kind of just becoming a thing pre pandemic. So I would try to do that as much as possible. However, there were always things that I would forget. And I would be in the middle of testing a recipe and go, oh, my God, I'm out of baking soda. Or, oh, my God, I'm out of salt. How could I be out of salt and then have to, you know, turn everything off? Kennel, my dog, pack up, go to the store, try to make sure I didn't forget anything else. So there were a lot of, you know, there was a lot of information. And yeah, intentions were to get everything in one go to save time, but there were often last minute things that had to be picked up.

[Megan Scott]

So, yeah, it's hard to do. It's hard to grocery shop perfectly.

[John Becker]

Yeah, no, that's. That sounds very familiar.

[Nicole Kondra]

I still have a problem with this. Yeah, that's really reassuring. I felt like I was really dropping the ball.

[Megan Scott]

No, no, no.

[John Becker]

Yeah. We're just lucky that to actually have a grocery store nearby these days.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. When we first started recipe testing, we were living in East Tennessee, like in the middle of nowhere.

[Nicole Kondra]

I can't even imagine.

[Megan Scott]

So we did what you did, which is try to make a list of everything you need so that you don't have to go. Because the grocery store was 45 minutes to an hour away. It was a whole day. Yeah. But we would figure out stuff all the time, even with the best intentions and, like, thinking we were doing such a great job. But, yeah, we forgot stuff all the time.

[John Becker]

I'm trying to remember what our contingency was. I feel like we just, like we.

[Megan Scott]

Would just table that recipe. Yeah. Yeah.

[John Becker]

Hopefully everything will keep.

[Sarah Marshall]

I did the same thing, but I was traveling to our commercial kitchen because I was trying to, like, run the sauce business while I was writing the cookbook. So I had people that were coming in and testing their recipes in the commercial kitchen while I was making hot sauce, which was complete chaos. But I had this traveling, like, makeup kit that I filled with all these different spices so that, like, I would just have everything that I thought that I would need, and I still have it. It's kind of rad because it. I just. Instead of it being filled with makeup, it's all these tiny spice jars.

[Nicole Kondra]

Like a tiffin.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, that. But it's, like, huge. It, like, folds out. Like, you remember. Did you guys come from a time where they had caboodles?

[Megan Scott]

Like.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yes, it's like that. It was just like, this makeup kit. 80s. It's like that, but it's. It's like, it looks like a film case. So I would just be like, okay, I got my kit, and it would be like, you know, I would need all these things to make all these pickles. So it's, like, full of, like, mustard seeds and black peppercorns and all this stuff, but little tiny jars. It made it so I didn't need so many things, but it was just like, a funny little thing that now I'm like, okay, I have my little spice kit on the go.

[John Becker]

That's awesome.

[Megan Scott]

How big are we talking?

[Sarah Marshall]

It's pretty big. It's like. It's like a. I don't. I don't know. Measurements. Okay, let's say 12 by 12 by 12.

[Nicole Kondra]

Kind of like a piece of makeup artist would use.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yes.

[Nicole Kondra]

Yeah. But it's for first tackle box, maybe.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Becker]

It's pretty rad. I'm picturing tackle box.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's like that idea.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's a tackle box, but fancy. It's like velvet lined. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Did you put cool stickers on it or something?

[Sarah Marshall]

No, it's just. It's just like.

[Megan Scott]

It just is awesome on its own.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, it's just awesome. I mean, I wish I'm gonna. I'm gonna, like, have to post a picture.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

You will know when I'm talk.

[Megan Scott]

Talking about. I'm sure.

[Nicole Kondra]

You look very mysterious carrying it around. It's like a spy case.

[Megan Scott]

What's she got in there?

[Sarah Marshall]

Spice Kids $100 bills.

[Megan Scott]

Nicole, can you tell listeners a little bit about yourself and, like, what you do for a living?

[Nicole Kondra]

Yeah. So my most of my career has actually been working with families as a nanny. I've always worked with kids in some capacity, but it's evolved over the years. And now I. I work with a family. I'm with a family full time, and I started off as their nanny, and then now the kids are growing, they're older, they're in school, and a lot of My job is to just sort of jump in wherever they need me. And so I'm pretty flexible. But I will say that having a culinary school degree and the joy of cooking experience on my resume has been really good for me in this way. And I end up working with these families who need a lot of support cook. So, and who doesn't? I, I wish I had a me. I say this all the time, but I do, you know, I, I, I'm there to sort of do whatever they need. But a lot of my job is actually cooking, and it's really nice to be back in that realm again in a very low pressure way. Um, so, you know, for example, on Mondays, I get there in the morning, I kind of help with the morning routine, get the kids off to school, and then I shop for the week. I cook sometimes I plan the recipe, sometimes they have ideas for what they would like, and I sort of just meal prep for them for the week. And then I have a lot of freedom. If I do want to try something new, I can say, hey, I've had a craving for this. What about you guys? Or hey, I really like this. Do you like this often? They don't, you know, and, and working with a young family that has young children, it's a little bit like being a short order cook as well, which I know anybody with kids can relate. So it's a lot of, I'll make this for mom and dad and I maybe prep some plain pasta and some other carbs for the kids and, you know, cut fruit and things like that. So it's nice because every day is different and there's, there's just enough kind of creative freedom to kind of keep me interested, I guess.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Do you like? I feel like sometimes it's really nice to cook for other people because you don't have, like, when you're just cooking for yourself, it can feel a little more limiting, like, oh, well, I only need, you know, it's just the two of us. I don't need to cook that much of this thing, or I can't eat a whole lasagna or whatever. Do you ever. Do you feel like it's a little more freeing to cook for other people in that way?

[Nicole Kondra]

I think. I mean, I could talk about that topic for hours, do a whole podcast on just what it's like to cook for yourself compared to cooking for others. But I think what I realized when I was in culinary school, I started culinary school knowing that I never actually wanted to set foot in a restaurant other than out of curiosity that life was never for me. I really like to cook because I really like to take care of people, and it's. That's why I also take care of children. And getting to do that for an entire family feels really nice for me. And so I get to cook for a very small group of people. Four people, and sometimes their friends or their family. And, you know, that's what satisfies my soul more than. More than the food part of it. So I love doing that. I will say, like, on Monday is my big cook day. The last thing I want to do is go home and cook in my little apartment kitchen with no dishwasher, one outlet, you know, But I. Yeah, I get to. I get to come in with ideas when I do feel inspired and when I don't, you know, they're. They're just grateful to be fed and to have food on the table for their kids and for them.

[Megan Scott]

Awesome. No, that's such a special thing, to have somebody make food for you. Every time someone cooks for me, I'm just really stoked to eat whatever it is.

[Nicole Kondra]

I feel really lucky that I get to do that and that I get to do that for people who. I remember when I started cooking for them, because initially I was just doing childcare, but when I started, when my role transitioned into more of this kind of hybrid position, I remember making a meal, and one of my employers, the mom of. Of this family, said, I just feel so loved right now. And I think about that pretty much every time I cook for them. You know, that is kind of my driving force, and that's great for me. I am divorced. I don't have my own kids, and so it scratches, I think, kind of a maternal itch that I'm very grateful that I have an outlet for.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Because it's. I can relate to that, too, because there are a lot of problems that crop up in the world and, you know, in families, and you can't fix all of those problems, but you can always cook somebody dinner.

[Nicole Kondra]

Everybody always needs to eat.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, people need to eat, so.

[Nicole Kondra]

And the harder the day, the. The better a good meal feels to sit down to or even just to eat over the sink, you know, or on the way out the door. Yeah, I really enjoy that aspect of what I do.

[Megan Scott]

Cool. We are going to move into our tasting segment. Usually we taste something on the show that is related to the top. However, this week's topic is casseroles. I did not want to make a casserole today, so we decided to prepare our recipe of the week. So last week we started a series where we choose. Each week we choose a recipe, we invite folks to make it along with us. Last week's recipe was the olive salad from the muffaletta recipe, which is in the sandwich chapter. So it's like a recipe embedded inside of a recipe, but it's this really beautiful, colorful and delicious olive salad. John, can you talk about what's in it since you made it?

[John Becker]

Sure. The muffuletta recipe was added in the 1997 edition. And, you know, after, after we tested it, I just felt like the olive salad just needed a few tweaks. And so, yeah, it's got. I'm not sure if we call specifically for Castle Vetrano olives. Now that I'm thinking about it, I.

[Megan Scott]

Think it just says green.

[John Becker]

It says green olives. And I think a lot of recipes will call for like, you know, pimento stuffed green olives. But yeah, the Sicilian green olives, the, you know, will plussed up a little. So, yeah, mostly that. Then some kalamatas and then some chopped up giardiniera. And you can, you know, you can use pepperoncini or you can use pickled jalapenos. I decided on the jalapenos because it's better that way.

[Megan Scott]

Because you like spicy?

[John Becker]

Well, within reason. Yeah. Capers. There's a roasted red pepper in there. Oregano, and then, yeah, some really nice dried oregano. I think it's from well Spent Market. They have really good oregano there. So, yeah, that and let's see, red wine vinegar and olive oil. And I feel like that's it. Oh, and salt, obviously, to taste. And garlic, fresh garlic.

[Megan Scott]

And Nicole, you were saying before we started recording, the muffuletta recipe might have been the first recipe you tested for Joy.

[Nicole Kondra]

I think that it was. I, I was saying before we started recording, it's a sandwich I think about often. Sandwiches are my favorite food. And this has all of the things I love in a sandwich. It's salty, it's briny. When you make it with, you know, the whole sandwich, it's meaty, it's a massive sandwich. You make it with a huge bowl of bread and you cut it into these wedges and it's just, it's the perfect food.

[Megan Scott]

We're sampling the olive salad on some delicious sourdough bread with some ricotta and a little drizzle of olio nuovo. So very fresh, green, grassy tasting olive oil.

[Sarah Marshall]

I'm, of course, sad that Shannon's not here, but usually I don't get to taste the things and I don't get to talk about them. So I'm like, super stoked because olives are my favorite. So this was a good day for.

[Megan Scott]

Her to be here. We miss you, Shannon.

[John Becker]

Yeah. I was trying to decide how to serve the olive salad, aside from just eating it straight from the container, which, you know, it's good if you do. If you do that. But. But yeah, I tried this out over when you were gone and it seemed. It seemed pretty.

[Nicole Kondra]

I feel like it would be delicious just mixed with some pasta. I mean, that's very simple.

[Megan Scott]

But no, it would be perfect with pasta. And maybe like, you know, if you wanted to add some protein, like add a little tuna.

[Nicole Kondra]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Olive oil packed tuna or something like that.

[Nicole Kondra]

Absolutely. Really good stuff in the glass jar.

[John Becker]

I was checking out recipes that use olive salad, aside from muffuletta on Eat your Books, which is a fantastic website slash resource. Highly recommend checking it out. There's a lot of innovation in the olive salad space.

[Megan Scott]

Did anything stick out?

[John Becker]

The deviled eggs seemed okay.

[Megan Scott]

Deviled egg. Putting eggs in olive salad or putting the olive salad in deviled eggs into the deviled egg.

[John Becker]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Okay.

[John Becker]

Or I think it's like a topping type thing. A lot of. A lot of the recipes that I saw, they were trying to incorporate, like all of the elements of the muffaletta into whatever it was.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, I see.

[John Becker]

Which I think is like, maybe a little too ambitious. But there was like a muffletta dips. There was at least a few muffletta dips, but yeah, it's a versatile.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

Salad. You could do a lot with it.

[Megan Scott]

And for our listeners, Eat your Books is a website where you can, for a very reasonable amount of money, you can go and create your own basically virtual library where you enter the names of all the cookbooks you have and then you can search for. You can search for recipe names, you can search for ingredients, and then it will tell you exactly what books you have that, say, have a eggplant recipe in them. Since our whole podcast is about eggplant. But it's a super helpful resource, especially if you have a lot of cookbooks and you don't have time to flip around through them and you just want to find something quickly. It's a really great thing to have.

[John Becker]

And they also cover a lot of magazines and food websites as well.

[Nicole Kondra]

Does it spit out a recipe for you or does it tell you, like, on page 317? Exactly.

[John Becker]

It'll give you an ingredient list which is, I mean, not. Not like with quantities. But, you know, in order to filter by ingredient, you know, they have to. I think it's a mostly volunteer situation. You know, just members of the. The eat your books community will enter, like, all of that information for a cookbook there. I don't know. I think some people might just be going through their cookbooks and doing that.

[Nicole Kondra]

Awesome.

[Megan Scott]

I'll have to check.

[John Becker]

Thank you to them.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's a lot of work.

[John Becker]

That's a lot of work.

[Sarah Marshall]

I think if Shannon was here, she would say that she would use this on grilled cheese. She would like grilled cheese with it.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, that would be so.

[Sarah Marshall]

And I think I would do, like, I. My daughter loves olives and would love this. I would do, like, kind of like a chicken piccata, like, sauteed chicken with it, and she'd be stoked on it.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that sounds delicious.

[Nicole Kondra]

I was thinking even just as a topping on, like, some salmon or just whatever protein you have, but just kind of a way to change it up.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it would be good for grilled.

[Nicole Kondra]

The next day too.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah.

[Nicole Kondra]

Like, for picnic food or your lunch that you don't have a refrigerator to keep things in or.

[Sarah Marshall]

Nicole, when you're testing, like, a recipe like this, do you ever feel, like, afraid to be, like, I think it needs this? Like, do you feel. Do you feel like they know more than me? And so how can I say that it needs more salt or whatever? Because that's what I feel like.

[Nicole Kondra]

So when I started testing, it's funny that you say salt, because I didn't know that. And maybe this isn't common knowledge. I feel like I'm seeing this referenced in recipes more. But the diamond kosher salts, that the quantity is different from, you know, like, your regular standard table salt. And so every single recipe, I was like, I had to double the salt. And I knew that you guys had already tested the recipes yourself before you sent them to me. And I was kind of next in line. And I mean, literally everything. I was like, I think the only note I have is that I need to double the salt. And, you know, nobody. We use diamond kosher in culinary school, but nobody. Nobody ever stops to explain that. The reason why we use that is because it makes it harder to over salt your food. So, you know, there was a little bit of an element of that. One thing I really appreciated about the approach that you guys took was that you didn't want this tested in kind of an immaculate test kitchen situation. And I was testing in my 1947 kitchen with my 1976 electric stove that broke multiple times throughout the testing process. No dishwasher, no garbage disposal. You know, very small kitchen.

[John Becker]

And I don't remember the failures. Did, like, the elements quit or.

[Nicole Kondra]

Yeah, I think I probably shielded you guys from a little bit of that information, but a lot of it was intermittent. It would work and then it wouldn't work. And then I would maybe switch to a different kind of recipe for a while. That's fine. But, yeah, there were some. There were definitely some real kitchen challenges. But that is also, I think kind of what has also made me such a fan girl of the Joy of Cooking is because I know that these were tested in real kitchens and, you know, replicable by ordinary people at home cooking.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that was really important to us when we were talking about how we wanted to have all the recipes tested. And we think it just makes it better. It kind of stress tests the recipe because you can't. Like, we weren't. We couldn't control what your kitchen was like, and we weren't going to outfit it with all the latest appliances or anything, so. Or even getting an appliance. Exactly right. Getting feedback that's like, you know, maybe this, this took 10 minutes longer in my oven, which maybe it was just your oven, but that tells us, okay, maybe we need to include like a range so that depending on the oven, people know to check a little early, but it might take this long, you know.

[Nicole Kondra]

Right. It was a really good extension of my education, too, especially because I was doing this as my externship initially. And, you know, I remember having a collection of different thermometers. I think I had borrowed a probe thermometer from you and a thermapen. And, you know, well, how hot does my oven run? And these are things that in, in culinary school, everything is already calibrated. The oven is set for the temperature that the recipe tells you to cook the thing at. But at home, in an old oven or even a new oven, you might be off 10, 20, 30 degrees, and it makes a difference. And so now I have that skill set of when I. Especially when I'm working for clients and I'm working in their kitchens, which are often, you know, newer, nicer kitchens than the one that I work in. But temperatures can be off. Stoves are all different.

[John Becker]

They're gaslighting. The stove's gaslighting you.

[Nicole Kondra]

Now I know I'm calibrating their thermometers and I'm, you know, calibrating their stove. And, you know, it's, It's. It seems so Simple. But, yeah, even in culinary school, they didn't really teach us that.

[John Becker]

Yeah. And, you know, the last two editions before the one we. We did, they were. They were done with, you know, the help of a test kitchen, and, you know, they did a great job. But there was also a lot of, like, miscommunication between, like, the people that were working on the manuscript and the people that were testing the recipes. And so, yeah, I think that just in general, we wanted to collapse the distance between the kitchen and the manuscripts that we were putting together.

[Nicole Kondra]

Front of house, back of house, rivalry.

[Megan Scott]

But a cookbook or like a game of telephone where, you know, so and so has to tell, you know, this person, and then they have to pass that along to another per. You know, there was just too many steps in the process so things would get lost. And we really wanted to keep it super close. And we were in direct contact with you a lot. Just about little things going on, and. Which was super helpful. I think it made it such a better book because of that. But before. So before we move on to officially interviewing you, Nicole, I wanted to introduce our recipe of the week for this week. So this week's show is about casseroles. And so we wanted everyone to make a broccoli cheese casserole. Such a classic casserole. It's on page 221 in the 2019 edition. As far as casseroles go, some of them are really actually quite complicated. This is a very easy recipe, and it has a delicious. What's the topping? It's like Romano cheese, corn flakes, and.

[John Becker]

Romano cheese, but, you know. Yeah, it's mornay sauce. You know, a bechamel made with cheese and then the broccoli, and then it gets the topping. So, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Simple and good. No condensed soup in this one. You make your own simple white sauce. Very straightforward. It's not sad. It's good.

[Nicole Kondra]

I'm pretty sure I brought a similar recipe to Thanksgiving at your place a couple of years ago, but mine has cheez Its on top.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, that's such a good variation.

[Nicole Kondra]

And it does use condensed soup, but I did make my own for that. I had to. I felt like I had. I. I owed you better. But the recipe that I grew up with was definitely a can of, you know, canned soup. But the cheez Its are the crowning jewel. Yeah, Mentos straight from the jar. I mean, it's. It's very colorful.

[John Becker]

But that was definitely kind of. It was a. A point of contention or, you know, something we worried about the casserole recipes for the 2019 edition. You know, just because so many of those recipes, you know, some of them dated back to like the 1943 edition and you were made with, you know, all of these condensed cream soups and they were taken out for the 1997 edition.

[Megan Scott]

Like the casserole recipes themselves were totally taken out, or a lot of them were.

[John Becker]

And then the ones that remained, they got like a freshly made, you know, cream sauce as opposed to the condensed soups. So we try to split the difference by like, you know, the recipe itself will have like the from scratch cream sauce. And then, you know, in the head note, we it's like for those of you who want to, you know, hearken back to a previous era.

[Nicole Kondra]

Store bought is fine.

[Megan Scott]

Yes, store bought is fine. Exactly. But yeah, please, please make the broccoli cheese casserole. Let us know how it goes. Share. Share what you're making with us on Instagram. You can tag us at thejoyofcooking. We'd love to see what you're making. And we will make it as well. We'll cook along with you. All right, Nicole, before you met us, did you grow up with Joy of Cooking or did you know about it? What was your relationship with Joy of Cooking before you knew us?

[Nicole Kondra]

So I knew about the Joy of Cooking. I was our household, I don't think was a Joy of Cooking house. I remember the red and white checked Betty Crocker binder that I think my mom received as a wedding gift. And I don't really remember her cooking from it very often, but I do remember all of the other recipes that she used that were just stuffed in the pages. And, you know, that was the book that she gave me when I got married. And. But I don't have an emotional connection to that book other than the memory of seeing it, you know, on my shelf. I'm not sure when I came across the Joy of Cooking, but I know that I was very aware of it. I had a copy of it, I used it. But all of that kind of came later, I think when I got married, my husband and I, we had moved to Pennsylvania and we really didn't. Neither of us knew anybody there. And a lot of my creative energy went from kind of art making to cooking. And I think I acquired an older copy. I'm not even sure which one, honestly, at some point from the library and never returned it. Sorry, Pittsburgh, I don't have it anymore. So maybe I sent it back. But yeah, at some point it just kind of. It found Me, I guess. And, you know, now I see it everywhere, and I. I feel such a sense of pride when I do. And. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Do you do any of the recipes that you. Well, it doesn't have to be a recipe you tested, but it could just be a recipe you make a lot now. But, like, do any of the recipes in the book stand out to you as, like, favorites or things you will go to just automatically?

[Nicole Kondra]

I don't think there's any one recipe in particular, but I. I think I refer to the Joy of Cooking, at least for work. It's. It's always my first stop. Anytime I'm thinking about making something, the first place I look is, and this edition in particular, because I know how well it was tested, and I really. I really trust these recipes. It's always my first stop. You know what, Even if it's something basic that is going to be doctored up later in some different way, I feel like when it comes to baked goods, I rely on the Joy of Cooking pretty heavily. I'm not a great baker, and I've just never really failed with anything I've baked out of this book. I've actually never. I can't say I've ever had a recipe I didn't like.

[Megan Scott]

That's awesome.

[Nicole Kondra]

It didn't turn out, and so I.

[John Becker]

That's a glowing testimonial.

[Nicole Kondra]

Well, like I said, I got the recipes that you had already tested, so.

[John Becker]

True. We try not to give you any bad ones.

[Nicole Kondra]

You're not paying me to say this.

[John Becker]

No, we hid the bad ones.

[Nicole Kondra]

The next one.

[John Becker]

No need to test this one.

[Megan Scott]

Outtakes. Do you. So you do use joy in your day job then, to kind of reference how to make something?

[Nicole Kondra]

Very often. Recently, I made brisket for the first time. I'd never made brisket in my entire life, and I really had it in me. I was like, I really want to make you guys a brisket. Okay, let's take some brisket. So I. I referred to the recipe and the Joy of Cooking, and then I kind of, you know, I looked at other books that they had and then the Internet, and I didn't end up going with any one recipe. But it was really helpful as a starting point to see, well, what is the technique? And then this one's made. This one's braised in more liquid. This one's more of a dry, long roast, and then kind of put them all together. So, yeah, I mean, that's just one example. But when I'm bored with the same salad dressing that I always Make, I will always flip through and figure out, you know, I mean, there's a bunch in there that I haven't made. So try something new. And yeah, I think it's a great starting point. And I often, I'm satisfied. I'm like, this is actually exactly what I want to make. And then I just stick with that one. But that book is pretty much always out on the counter at work.

[Megan Scott]

That's so awesome. Thank you for saying that.

[Nicole Kondra]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

What are some of the most requested meals that you make for the family you work for?

[Nicole Kondra]

So, like I mentioned, they have two young kids who have, you know, pretty standard kid tastes that are always fluctuating. So I will say that. So there's two kids. One is six, one is four and a half, six year old, loves grilled cheese sandwiches, although it kind of waxes and wanes. One thing I will say about the clients that I work for is that the parents both have celiac, and so there's no gluten in their house and the kids don't. So I make a lot of jokes about being their fairy gluten mother. And they come to my house and I give them grilled cheese and, you know, things that they can't have at home. And so as far as the kids are concerned, it's kind of grilled cheese sandwiches and pasta. You know, every week I make a big salad for the week, and I try to change it up. There's always some protein. It's usually chicken, which can get, you know, a little. A little repetitive. So I do try to mix it up with that. But consistently, every week, I'm making a huge salad for the week that's available all week long. A jar of some kind of dressing. It's typically just kind of a mustard vinaigrette, honey or maple, some kind of roasted chicken or protein. And then a lot of times, I think my favorite weeks are the weeks where I get asked to make a dish that they're going to take with them somewhere. So, like, for example, last week the family went on vacation to a cabin with a couple of other families, and they said, will you make us some lasagnas? Will you make us a vegetarian lasagna and a meat lasagna? And so I made a big, huge batch of this lamb ragu. And then I made a big batch of a mushroom ragu. And I had this assembly line. And this is my favorite kind of cooking because it's. It's a lot of effort, but you also get a lot of food for it, and it freezes really well. And, you know, I made them a Basque cheesecake and a huge salad to take. And again, because I love cooking, because I love feeding people, knowing that I'm feeding a huge group of people, it makes me feel even better. And just hearing the comments, everybody loved lasagna. This feels really good.

[Megan Scott]

So, yeah, that sounds delicious. That makes me so hungry. It's like 5, 5:30 right now. And I'm like, okay, well, there was.

[Nicole Kondra]

Enough leftovers that I made myself a lasagna as well. So there's one in my freezer.

[Sarah Marshall]

What are your favorite things to cook for yourself?

[Nicole Kondra]

I am relearning that actually learning to cook for myself again has been tricky. I often actually will just sort of. I end up making more food for my clients than they can even eat. So I often will take some home for myself or, you know, so I'm kind of cooking what I like to, you know, as well as what they want. But my favorite things to cook have always been, you know, the things that don't need a recipe, the things that are more process oriented, like standing over the stove and making a risotto, or things that I grew up cooking that are all by sense, you know, like a big pot of ragu, where you just kind of add it until things taste right. Things that have, I guess, a. They take a lot of effort and labor initially, but the payoff is great because you end up with something that you can use in all these different ways. So, I mean, soups and sauces and just a kettle of food over a fire feels right to me.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. And we've talked about this a little bit, but, like, it's kind of a challenge to cook for just one person. So, like, so hard. How do you tackle. How do you tackle that? How do you, like, feed yourself without overwhelming with so much food?

[Nicole Kondra]

It's really hard. I wish I had a good answer for that. I think cooking for one, especially when you've been cooking all day and you just want to come home and I ordered so much pizza when I was testing for you guys. There's a lot of takeout involved. But I think I have some weeks where I'm better at it than others. And then I have. I have some weeks where it's like, I'll stock my fridge at the beginning of the week and then not eat any of it. I am trying to be better about. If I do make a big batch of something, just inviting random people over and say, hey, I just made a pot of beans. If you want beans off the street, Come. I mean, maybe next week. Yeah. Or I'm really inspired to have this friend, Lauren, and she, you know, she's also single and has a CSA subscription. And, like, nobody can eat that much broccoli or that many cucumbers in the summer. So she'll. I thought it was so sweet. She'll just have sort of like a salad party where she'll make the base of the salad or stir fry, and then people can come and kind of like byop, you know, bring your own protein. And it just turns into this really low pressure way to have, you know, it's not even a dinner party. It's just people need to eat. And I really identify with that and want to do more of that.

[Megan Scott]

I aspire to that kind of entertaining. I feel like I agonize a little bit when we're entertaining and really want to make something special and make it a big deal, but then that adds the stress onto you and.

[Nicole Kondra]

Yeah. And I think about this a lot because as long as I've known you guys, I realize I've never had you over for dinner. That wasn't a party or something. And I think a lot of it is that pressure of. And I do like entertaining, but there's the pressure of cooking well, especially for people that know food and having everything be perfect and kind of being this perfect host instead of just treating it like dinner, you know?

[Megan Scott]

Well, we love. We love beans. Rice and beans.

[John Becker]

Yeah. That definitely goes both ways. As co authors of the Joy of Cooking, you know? Yeah. You just kind of feel like everything has to. I don't know, I mean, you have to impress.

[Megan Scott]

You feel like we have to be impressive with our cooking, I guess.

[John Becker]

I don't know. At least competent.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Well, I think it's a little. Maybe a little bit that, but it's also just wanting to get to flex your muscles a little, you know what I mean? Like, flex your culinary muscles and make something you don't make every day. Like lasagna. Like, we don't make lasagna very often because this is the two of us and we'll freeze it. But it doesn't feel as special. Like, when you have.

[Nicole Kondra]

Never the same either.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Nicole Kondra]

Throw it in the freezer.

[John Becker]

Yeah. Actually, lasagna is one of those. Those, I guess you. I mean, it's not a crutch, but it feels like a crutch. Like, for me. I don't know why.

[Megan Scott]

Just.

[Nicole Kondra]

Just lasagna.

[John Becker]

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I can make fresh pasta. I don't have to Cut the. I don't even have to cut the pasta. I could just lay it in there. And then. Oh, I have this ragu that I spent a day cooking, and it just makes. It makes it easy. You know, you're not. You're not cooking anything a la minute, which is something that I'm sure I've had some nightmares about that.

[Megan Scott]

Some stress dreams about.

[John Becker]

Stress dreams. Short order cooking. Yeah. Doing short order cooking for people that I care about and want. Maybe not want to impress, but just I want to mess up in front of.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nicole Kondra]

It can be stressful.

[Megan Scott]

Let's do more impromptu dinners. Not dinner parties, just dinners.

[Nicole Kondra]

Yeah. I think I wanted to mention, too, I feel like at least I've always loved cooking. When I was young, I did want to be a chef, but my mom was such a neat freak about the kitchen that I wasn't really allowed to cook until I moved out. Had my own kitchen. But I grew up watching after the Saturday morning cartoons, it was the Martha Stewart Living show. And I was obsessed with all of my mom's issues of Good Housekeeping and Woman's Day magazine. And there was all this pressure to. Not pressure. Like, it was an interest of mine, a genuine interest of mine, but it was, I want to host dinner parties and not just I want to make dinner. And that's definitely evolved as I've gotten older and more comfortable and cooking and things like that. But I do love the rush of, like, a perfectly timed Thanksgiving or. I mean, but I also recognize that my life doesn't really fit that anymore.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nicole Kondra]

And I don't know that it ever really did, but I still care about putting good food on the table, even if it's just my table and it's just for me. So, yeah, it's a puzzle. It's always getting fit together in different.

[John Becker]

Ways after all of that. Yeah. Being able to carve into a perfectly hooked turkey in front of a bunch of people is kind of exhilarating.

[Megan Scott]

The rush.

[Nicole Kondra]

The rush for a disorganized person like me, getting all the timing right and the sweet potatoes and the broccoli casserole and. Yeah. Yeah.

[John Becker]

This might say more about me and how boring I am. I don't know.

[Nicole Kondra]

No, I mean, I think totally.

[John Becker]

No, no.

[Megan Scott]

Sky turkey. Yes.

[Nicole Kondra]

Turkey day. T minus three hours. Let's go, team.

[Megan Scott]

All right, so now we're going to answer our. The question that we got this week. Each week, we choose a topic to tackle based on caller suggestions. And this week, we're talking about casseroles Sarah, can you read the question?

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, this is pretty exciting for me because it's from my uncle and it's about my grandma, and so it feels really special. I know jerk read it last week, but. Because I wasn't here, but. And I also love that my uncle calls it my podcast, but it's. It's actually your guy. Oh, it's your podcast, but he says. Okay. So I'm. I'm a big fan of Sarah's podcast, and it really got me thinking about cooking memories. I remembered my mother, which is my grandmother.

[Megan Scott]

A true improv, improvisational.

[Sarah Marshall]

Thank you, cook teaching me how to make eggplant casserole. When I first moved into my small adobe house In Cotati in 1970, I tried to find her exact recipe in Joy of Cooking, but it wasn't there. She probably combined elements of different recipes, as she often did. She gave me a heavy cast iron pot and I layer it with sliced eggplant. Any idea of this casserole recipe? Dave Stone, Petaluma, California and I just have to say that, like, my grandma, I. She did cook that way. Like, she would just kind of of make things up. But I love that he had this memory that I didn't even know about. And I wouldn't have known about it except for that you guys have this podcast, so. Thanks. Do you know what recipe it is?

[John Becker]

It's a tough one, actually. It was tougher than I thought it would be when I. When Dirk read it last week. So, yeah, I guess it kind of just depends on what edition she might have been working from. Yeah, like the 1960 and the 1975 editions, they only have a few recipes. You know, they were Marion's editions, and she made a lot of changes after taking over the book from Irma. So, yeah, the 1963 edition has just the scalloped eggplant recipe. And then the 1975 also has a moussaka recipe. It seems like he would probably remember moussaka for more than just having, like, layers of sliced eggplant, because there's a lot going on in there. So Irma's editions, like, the 1951 edition is like, was her the last one that she, you know, was involved with? And there are so many freaking eggplant recipes in there. It is ridiculous. And almost all of them involve onions and green bell pepper and tomato, like, in some. In some form. There's an eggplant crail recipe that has, you know, so it's eggplant that's sliced and then it's sauteed and then tomatoes are sauteed separately, and then it's layered in a baking dish, and then it's got cheese on top. The scalloped eggplant, sometimes it's diced, sometimes it's sliced. Those are parboiled. I feel like that's. That's really weird.

[Megan Scott]

That's an odd.

[John Becker]

Yeah, like boiling. You go further back in Joy of cooking additions. And there's more of that. Like, in the 31. I don't think there was a. The 1931 edition, I don't think that there was an eggplant recipe that did not involve actually, like, taking the pulp out and then cooking it, either parboiling it or sauteing it before adding it back to the eggplant as, like a.

[Megan Scott]

Like a case.

[John Becker]

Like, as a case. But. Yeah. Let's see.

[Megan Scott]

I don't know about how I feel about boiling eggplant. That just doesn't. Seems like it would absorb a lot of water.

[John Becker]

Yeah.

[Nicole Kondra]

Was canned eggplant a thing? Was that a vegetable that was ever canned?

[Megan Scott]

I don't know.

[Nicole Kondra]

Slices.

[John Becker]

Why would you have to part. Cook it at all if it was canned?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

I don't know. It's weird. There's a creamed shrimps and celery eggplant or cucumber agrata.

[Megan Scott]

Whoa.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's.

[Megan Scott]

Wait, say all those ingredients again. Say that again.

[John Becker]

It's. Well, it's like three different options. So it's creamed shrimps, shrimps and celery comma, eggplant comma, Or. Or cucumber agraton.

[Megan Scott]

Wait, eggplant or cucumber?

[John Becker]

Yeah, I know. It's same thing. Just whatever you want. Just throw it in there.

[Sarah Marshall]

Do your thing.

[John Becker]

Put some crumbs on it. Throw it under a broiler.

[Nicole Kondra]

I guess more of a sasserole than a casserole.

[John Becker]

1. 1 sliced layered eggplant did that. I did find that was pretty. Pretty odd. Layered with slices of green bell pepper, of course, tomato, onion. All the usual suspects. You bake that, but then you top it with split wieners or frankfurters that have been spread with mustard or horseradish.

[Megan Scott]

Whoa.

[John Becker]

And then you. And then I guess you broil it. You bake it further. I would. I feel like I would broil then. Yeah. No, lots of tomato green.

[Sarah Marshall]

That sounds fun.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Nicole Kondra]

Actually, I feel like I would eat that. It's like, kind of smoky, salty. Yeah, I could see it.

[John Becker]

Oh, yeah. And then, like, in the 51 edition, there's also a variation on scalloped eggplant that adds Oysters. So you layer, like gently cooked oysters. You've taken them out like a pint of oysters. You gently cook them until, like, they start to turn opaque. And then you layer them in between, like, in between the eggplant slices and.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, that one. Not fun.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I don't know about that. Yeah, I'm not as. I guess I'm not as quite as open minded as Irma was about pairing eggplant with things.

[John Becker]

So I guess, you know, moral of the story is we would know more if we could find out what edition.

[Sarah Marshall]

Is the moussaka recipe in the newest edition?

[Megan Scott]

Yes, it is.

[Sarah Marshall]

Okay, cool.

[John Becker]

It's been in the last four. Four editions.

[Nicole Kondra]

I definitely remember testing that one too, and really enjoying it.

[Megan Scott]

It's delicious. It's a project.

[Nicole Kondra]

It was, but it was. I remember when I was testing for you guys, I was thinking before I started that I would save so much money on groceries because I would just have food around all the time. But because of the way we did it in these sort of batches when I. I remember when we did moussaka, we also did, you know, similar recipes. It was casserole week. And then it was, you know, like, one can only eat so many casseroles.

[Megan Scott]

I beg to differ.

[Nicole Kondra]

True.

[John Becker]

It's time to make friends with your neighbors.

[Nicole Kondra]

Yeah, right. I did think about putting a refrigerator out on the corner, you know, before the free fridge project was a thing. But. But I do remember that recipe and it was, it was very Good.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

The 1997 edition had a moussaka recipe that called for a bechamel that was made with yogurt and olive oil.

[Megan Scott]

Wait, so like, in addition to. Did it have milk as well and yogurt was whisked in or just yogurt.

[Nicole Kondra]

That feels like a low fat version?

[John Becker]

Like, it was, quote unquote, a modern bechamel is what it is.

[Nicole Kondra]

What, like cottage cheese and lasagna? Fat free cottage cheese.

[Megan Scott]

I mean, anything. I grew up in the south and in my family, anything could be a casserole.

[Sarah Marshall]

Because I want to know your favorite cass. You're like, to me, you're like casserole queen. You're the only person I know that grew up eating that.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, yeah. So my family, I grew up in the south and I grew up going to church a lot. And casserole, I feel like I associate very strongly with going to church because after church every Sunday, my family would go to my great grandmother's house and she and my grandmother would have cooked a giant spread for the Whole family. It was really awesome. They. In hindsight, I'm like, wow, they worked so much. Like, they went to the early church service so that they could come home in time to, like, finish lunch for 10 to 15 people every, every week.

[Nicole Kondra]

Every Sunday.

[Megan Scott]

Every single Sunday for. For so decades, like, before I was born. And then, you know, still when I go home, we will have Sunday lunch. I love that. And it was rad. But they would always. There would always be at least one casserole, and anything could be a casserole. Like, there was chicken casserole. That was a favorite. There was sausage casserole. So, like, not like kielbasa sausage, like breakfast sausage, like ground.

[Nicole Kondra]

Oh, yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Kind of ground sausage. That was delicious. I. I really love a squash casserole. Like a yellow squash casserole with cheddar cheese in it. That is a top tier casserole.

[John Becker]

Yeah, you really probably are out on that one. It is.

[Megan Scott]

It is solid.

[John Becker]

Delicious.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. With like a Ritz cracker crumb topping. It's so good. Butter. It's a little bit. Yeah. Or cheez. Its. I. I like that idea a lot. But, yeah, we would always have, like, sweet potato casserole or. Yeah, just whatever could be a casserole.

[Nicole Kondra]

What was the breakfast sausage casserole? What was in that?

[Megan Scott]

Man, I never made it myself. I feel like.

[John Becker]

Please tell me there were hash browns in there.

[Megan Scott]

No, there were. It wasn't like a theme. It wasn't like breakfast themed. There was no potatoes. It was. It was creamy. So it must have had soup. Soup, like one of the canned soups or something in it. I don't fully. I don't fully know, but it had a crumb topping, so it had that bit of crunchy on top.

[John Becker]

It's a hallmark of a good casserole. So you're not really sure.

[Nicole Kondra]

Yeah, don't ask questions.

[Sarah Marshall]

We're gonna need to ask your mom about that.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, we can. I can call my grandma this week and ask her what the deal is with that. I feel like maybe that one also had macaroni in it. Like elbow pasta and breakfast sausage.

[Nicole Kondra]

Yeah, this is sounding really familiar. So I have a friend, had a friend who we would do a pre Thanksgiving turkey day thing every year, and his family is in North Carolina, and he would always bring this sausage casserole that was. It sounds like it might have been similar, but it had breakfast sausage in it. I was like, why are you bringing breakfast sausage to Thanksgiving? He's like, trust me, it's delicious. And it really was. And so that was the. And it had a funny name. I can't remember what it was. If I heard it, I would know it.

[Megan Scott]

But I don't remember it being called anything other than just sausage casserole. But all of those recipes would be. Would be passed like through the grapevine through like church cookbooks. Right, Those community cookbooks.

[Nicole Kondra]

Plastic bound things you would buy.

[Megan Scott]

Exactly. And they all like have the same. Mostly the same recipes in them. But yeah, sausage casserole. I'm sure everybody, like so many people must make that because of those church cookbooks. And like, as an adult making casseroles, you know, it's just the two of us in our household, so we don't ever need to make that much food. But I remember the first time I made a casserole, I was like, this is actually really time consuming. I always thought of it as a way of saving time, but it's totally not. It's a way of cooking a lot of food for a lot of people.

[Nicole Kondra]

Right.

[Megan Scott]

So it has like different. It's accomplishing a different goal than saving time.

[Nicole Kondra]

But hitting all the four food groups in one exactly one dish.

[John Becker]

Yeah. Even with the condensed soups, you're really not. I mean, you're saving some time obviously. But yeah, I feel like a lot of that, A lot of that time is it's like going into the baking of it or.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. It takes a long time to bake.

[Nicole Kondra]

All the parts you have to prep beforehand.

[John Becker]

Right.

[Megan Scott]

But it's kind of, in a way, I was thinking about it, it's almost like a precursor to a dump meal because you just take all the components and mix them together, put them in a dish or layer them and then bake it. So it's kind of just.

[John Becker]

You throw everything in dump meals. Isn't that. That's so 2000 and tens.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, they're still out there.

[Nicole Kondra]

Oh, they are definitely still out there.

[Sarah Marshall]

I think they just call them like sheet pan recipes now. It's the same thing.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, I, I kind of put that in a different category, I guess because it's like, okay, throw it on a sheet pan. I think of dumping, like putting it in a slow cooker or throw it.

[Nicole Kondra]

In an instant pot.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or instant pot.

[Sarah Marshall]

Just they're just looking for, looking for time. Like, there's like. It's fast. Yeah, that's all I want.

[John Becker]

Oh, yeah. She pan is definitely like. It's in the same genus, different species, something like that.

[Nicole Kondra]

Cinematic universe, different cooking technique. It's a dry heat.

[Megan Scott]

It's a dry heat. Okay. I think we have covered that as best as we can.

[John Becker]

Apologies to your uncle.

[Sarah Marshall]

I think he's going to be stoked. I think the misaka is going to nail it. I do.

[John Becker]

Oh, you know, he's just going to go after that scalp, take plant with the oysters, whatever.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, I don't know, man.

[Sarah Marshall]

Not quite sure about that.

[Megan Scott]

If you have a topic, ingredient or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. Although we would love it if you left us an actual voice message. That would be so rad because no one wants to talk on the phone, I guess. We would love to hear from you. And next week's topic comes from our caller.

[Sarah Marshall]

This is a text, so it's going to be me talking. I was shopping recently looking for shallots and they were out. I bought pearl onions instead. Do you think this is a good replacement or do you have a better one? And do you have any recipes with pearl onions?

[Megan Scott]

Great question. We will tackle that next week. All right, what is everybody gonna cook this week? What are we excited about, John?

[John Becker]

Well, I don't know. I feel like we cooked this not so long ago. I'm hoping that we're not repeating it on the podcast, but there's a soup, it's called Roberto. It was published in the New Yorker. It's a recipe by Helen Rosner. And we just recently got some really nice, spicy Italian sausage from a local butcher. And so, yeah, it's really great for. It really shines in the soup. And it's, it's got white beans, it's.

[Megan Scott]

Got kale, it's got some tomato. Not a ton of tomato, but some.

[John Becker]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

And then what else? I feel like we missed something. I don't know. It's kind of got an Italian ish Ness to it that's really delightful. And it's really versatile, too, because, like, you can use. We have some, like, mature spinach at home that we could throw in instead of kale. Or, like, you can use other kind like borlatti beans or cranberry beans instead of the white beans. So it's very adaptable. Adaptable to whatever you have on hand.

[John Becker]

Yeah. We also got some spicarillo in our csa. Another Italian dish that I was kind of have a hankering for is utica greens. Trying to remember the process on that.

[Megan Scott]

Well, you saute the greens with onion and garlic.

[John Becker]

Yeah. And then you, you pop it in the oven with a breadcrumb, parmesan topping. And it's also got some pickled chilies in there too.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah, the pickled chilies make it. Yeah, that, like, the little pops of acidity are so delicious in there. But yeah, you broil it with the. The cheesy breadcrumb topping and it's. It's so delicious.

[John Becker]

It's almost a casserole.

[Megan Scott]

It almost.

[Nicole Kondra]

Breadcrumbs. Automatic casserole.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

Everything au grata.

[Megan Scott]

We desperately need to use some carrots.

[John Becker]

We're.

[Megan Scott]

We're getting carrots every time in our CSA at this point in the year. So do either of you have any favorite carrot things that you like to make?

[Nicole Kondra]

I feel like I just end up roasting them and eating them, like, right off the sheet pan. They don't even make it into the fridge. I love carrots.

[Megan Scott]

That's such a solid way to do it because they get nice and sweet.

[Nicole Kondra]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

Well, there's that Benihana dressing, you know, that Japanese steakhouse dressing.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's what I was gonna say. Like the miso ginger dressing. We'll do that. Like shred the carrots on the cheese grater and do that.

[Megan Scott]

Adeline loves that.

[Sarah Marshall]

So that's what I. We tend to do A.

[John Becker]

Maybe we could toss the roasted carrots with the carrot sauce.

[Megan Scott]

Whoa. Meta.

[Nicole Kondra]

Whoa.

[Megan Scott]

Carrot ception.

[John Becker]

Carrot ception. I'm gonna have to think about that.

[Megan Scott]

We also make a. A carrot salad. It's like the French carrot salad that's just grated carrots and then a little bit of oil, a little bit of lemon juice. And I always add Dijon mustard to it because I love Dijon mustard, but it's a favorite.

[Nicole Kondra]

I cook a lot of carrots, but I end up just roasting them and then thinking, oh, there's roasted carrots for the week. This is usually at work. And then I think I'll have to work those into recipes later on, and then they're gone the next day. Yeah, you just eat them. I did have a really good. I've been thinking about this because I made mashed potatoes this week for my 6 year old at work. It's one of the things she'll eat. And I was thinking back to this taco I had back in la. That was a flour tortilla mashed cheesy mashed potatoes, and a carrot slaw that was on top. And so the acidic carrot slaw cuts the fat of the potatoes, so it's almost like a, like a double decker taco Yum. With. Yeah. Flour tortilla with a crunchy corn Tortilla cheese layer.

[John Becker]

Oh, wow.

[Nicole Kondra]

Mashed potatoes, carrot slaw with a ton of cilantro and lime juice.

[Sarah Marshall]

So that sounds rad.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Nicole Kondra]

And it's been on my mind to make it, so feel free to.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I might run with that. I might crib that. Yeah. What are you gonna make this week, Sarah?

[Sarah Marshall]

Well, I have a special request from my daughter, which is, I think on my website it's called, like, world famous meatloaf or something, but it's the meatloaf I made for. Make for Adeline. And it's just. It's a mix of ketchup and our barbecue sauce. And then it has breadcrumbs that you soak in milk. And so it's just like this really nice meatloaf, but I make them in little tiny ones for her. And so, you know, when she has a craving for that, it's like she's like, mom, meatloaf time.

[Megan Scott]

So that's.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's what I have on the agenda.

[Megan Scott]

That sounds lovely. I love the little individual meatloaves instead of the one big. Because I. You get a better sauce to meatloaf ratio. Yeah.

[Nicole Kondra]

And the little. The caramelization on the outside. I don't know why meatloaf gets such a bad rap. It's just a meatloaf. Delicious. That's easier to cook. Yeah, there's something. Yeah. I love meatloaf.

[John Becker]

I just like the idea that there is a meatloaf time.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's time for meatloaf.

[Sarah Marshall]

Time for meatloaf.

[Megan Scott]

Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review on Apple podcasts and itunes. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram hejoyofcooking. Stay tuned for next week where we'll tackle shallots. Call in with questions, hopes, history, or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

[Sarah Marshall]

And we cannot do this without our fantastic team at Joy of Creation production house. Thank you to Dave Drusky, my super rad brother, our production coordinator, and Haley Bowers, our audio engineer. Bye, everybody.

[John Becker]

Sat.