A Casual Culinary Chat About Preserving with Cathy Barrow

Summary

The Joy of Cooking Podcast: A Casual Culinary Chat About Preserving with Cathy Barrow

Release Date: March 26, 2025

Hosts:

• Shannon Larson
• Megan Scott
• John Becker

Guest:

• Kathy Barro - An award-winning author known for her cookbooks, including Mrs. Wheelbarrow's Practical Pantry, Pie, When Pies Fly, and Bagels Schmears, and A Nice Piece of Fish. Kathy is also renowned for her preserving expertise, having contributed to publications like the New York Times and the Washington Post.

---

Introduction and Welcome

The episode kicks off with the familiar warm welcome from Shannon Larson, setting the stage for an engaging discussion about recipes, kitchen triumphs and mishaps, and current culinary endeavors of the hosts and their guests.

Megan Scott introduces herself as the co-author of the 2019 edition of The Joy of Cooking, humorously mentioning her culinary professional status contrasted with her penchant for frozen pizza:

"I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night. And even though I'm a culinary professional, I ate frozen pizza for dinner last night. Shh." (00:59)

John Becker emphasizes a simple yet profound cooking tip:

"I think we should all be braising potatoes more." (01:13)

---

Braising Potatoes: A Culinary Exploration

The conversation begins with John Becker explaining his newfound love for braising potatoes, inspired by a dish called Palais Fondant:

"Palms fondant is basically, you know, you're taking like big thick disc steak, like discs of russet potato. You are browning them in a skillet with maybe a flavorful rendered fat of some kind or, or just oil. You're browning them on both sides kind of like you would, you know, like if you were braising meat and then you add a nice flavorful stock and you just like let that cook down until the potatoes get nice and silky tender." (01:31)

Megan Scott elaborates on the term "fondant," highlighting the melty texture achieved:

"Fondant means melting or to melt in French. And so it's like a melty texture when the potatoes are done. They're so good." (02:08)

The discussion seamlessly transitions to their Korean-inspired dinner featuring soy-glazed potato banchan, showcasing the versatility of braised potatoes.

---

Guest Introduction: Kathy Barro

The hosts enthusiastically welcome Kathy Barro, detailing her impressive credentials and contributions to culinary literature. Megan shares her initial connection with Kathy's work through Food52, recalling the active community that fostered shared culinary passions.

Kathy Barro reminisces about her early engagement with the cooking community:

"I need to make this cake, and it didn't work, so I'm going to make it 47 times until I get it down. And really, most of my friends thought I was insane, but there suddenly was this whole community of people who were like, yeah, I do that, too. It was wonderful." (06:00)

---

Gardening and Preserving Insights

The conversation delves into Kathy's gardening endeavors, highlighting her meticulous approach to cultivating winter greens and her persistent efforts to protect tulips from pests:

"When we moved to this house five years ago, the first year, I planted, like, 400 tulips. [...] I can't wait." (07:15)

Kathy draws parallels between her gardening perseverance and her culinary persistence:

"It's similar to the, you know, oh, this cake didn't work the first time. I'm going to try 50 more times with gardening. It's the same." (08:43)

---

Culinary Favorites and Techniques

The hosts explore various aspects of bagel making, with Kathy sharing her passion and expertise. She recounts her journey to perfecting bagels, emphasizing the importance of high-gluten flour and referencing influential recipes.

Megan Scott expresses admiration for Kathy's bagel knowledge:

"How did you become interested, first of all, in making bagels at home?" (21:12)

Kathy Barro offers practical advice for aspiring bagel bakers, encouraging precise yet intuitive methods:

"If you think that it's been in the refrigerator getting ready to bake long enough, add two hours. It needs a lot of time." (39:00)

Additionally, the discussion touches on sourdough bread baking, where Megan and Shannon share their sourdough routines and storage tips, while Kathy provides in-depth guidance on starter maintenance and baking techniques.

---

Sourdough Bread Baking: Tips and Techniques

The episode dedicates a significant portion to sourdough baking, featuring insights from Megan, Shannon, John, and Kathy. They discuss the emotional and intuitive aspects of sourdough, emphasizing the balance between precision and flexibility.

Megan Scott shares her personal experience with sourdough, highlighting the liberating aspect of certain recipes:

"I can totally do this. The way they described making the bread was so freeing." (32:04)

Kathy Barro offers invaluable advice for sourdough enthusiasts:

"If you want to learn to make sourdough, you need to plan two or three days for each loaf. That's just what you do." (39:00)

John introduces the concept of the tangzhong technique, explaining its benefits in achieving a moist, fluffy crumb:

"The tangzhong keeps it really moist and fresh tasting for days." (41:12)

---

Preserving Practices and Recipes

Transitioning to preserving, Megan and Kathy discuss seasonal canning projects, with Kathy sharing her love for pickling asparagus and small onions, as well as her innovative combination of strawberries and mangoes for jam:

"I make strawberry jam, but I usually do strawberries with mango because the mango provides enough pectin to make it sturdy without additional pectin." (28:53)

Kathy emphasizes natural preservation methods, avoiding commercial pectin and leveraging the natural pectin in fruits like mangoes and kiwis:

"I don't like to use commercial pectin. [...] I'm open minded to jams that aren't thick like we're used to, but a little bit runnier, which works with yogurt really nicely." (30:01)

---

Listener Engagement and Questions

The hosts engage with listener questions, addressing topics such as expanding a young cook's culinary repertoire. Haley from Denver inquires about incorporating more vegetables into Asian-inspired noodle dishes for her adventurous 12-year-old.

Megan Scott responds with enthusiasm, encouraging experimentation and sharing personal anecdotes about learning to bake sourdough, underlining the importance of persistence and adaptability in cooking.

---

Conclusion and Wrap-Up

As the episode winds down, the hosts share personal updates and celebrate John's birthday. They encourage listeners to engage with them through social media and upcoming episodes, promising more insightful discussions and recipes.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Megan Scott (00:59): "I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night. And even though I'm a culinary professional, I ate frozen pizza for dinner last night. Shh."

• John Becker (01:13): "I think we should all be braising potatoes more."

• Kathy Barro (06:00): "I need to make this cake, and it didn't work, so I'm going to make it 47 times until I get it down."

• Kathy Barro (07:15): "Everything's coming. And I finally have some tulips."

• Megan Scott (21:12): "How did you become interested, first of all, in making bagels at home?"

• Kathy Barro (39:00): "If you want to learn to make sourdough, you need to plan two or three days for each loaf. That's just what you do."

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of The Joy of Cooking Podcast offers a rich tapestry of culinary wisdom, blending practical tips with heartfelt stories. From the art of braising potatoes to the nuanced techniques of sourdough baking and preserving, listeners are treated to an inspiring and informative culinary journey. Kathy Barro's expertise adds depth to the conversation, making this episode a must-listen for home cooks eager to elevate their kitchen skills.

---

Stay tuned for next week's episode, where the hosts will explore veggie-forward dishes tailored for an adventurous 12-year-old, inspired by listener Ashley's question.

Transcript

[Kathy Barro]

Sa.

[Shannon Larson]

Hello and welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of the Joy of Cooking, kitchen victories and misadventures, and most importantly, what we are cooking and eating right now. We're glad you've joined us at the table today. I'm Shannon Larson, home cook, ardent Joy of Cooking user and van and New York bagel, enthusiastic.

[Megan Scott]

I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night. And even though I'm a culinary professional, I ate frozen pizza for dinner last night. Shh.

[John Becker]

I'm John Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook. And I think we should all be braising potatoes more. I guess a lukewarm take there to.

[Megan Scott]

Start us off with explain the brazing of potatoes.

[John Becker]

I guess it started with palms fondant. I think we did that over the holiday and it was just like, man, this is so delicious. And we don't have it in the book. Palms fondant is basically, you know, you're taking like big thick disc steak, like discs of russet potato. You are browning them in a skillet with maybe a flavorful rendered fat of some kind or, or just oil. You're browning them on both sides kind of like you would, you know, like if you were braising meat and then you add a nice flavorful stock and you just like let that cook down until the potatoes get nice and silky tender.

[Shannon Larson]

That sounds so good.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, yeah. Fondant means melting or to melt in French. And so it's like a melty texture when the potatoes are done. They're so good.

[John Becker]

We had kind of a Korean ish dinner of sundubuj jigga. So we made this soy glazed potato banchan where they're kind of braised and then they get. Get reduced in a nice sweetened soy mixture.

[Megan Scott]

We did it with sweet potatoes too, after, because we liked it so much and both were so good.

[John Becker]

Yeah, braising potatoes.

[Shannon Larson]

All right, noted.

[Megan Scott]

What about you, Shannon? What have you been cooking this week?

[Shannon Larson]

Let's see, we had a friend come over last Saturday for dinner and he had been traveling all week, and so we did homemade Indian food for just. He was taking a red eye back to New York too. So I just was like, let's just like fill them up with vegetables. One of the things we did do this time was we just made our own paneer. And it's so Easy to make your own paneer. And it's so much better.

[Megan Scott]

I.

[Shannon Larson]

It's so much better than the store bought stuff. At least like the stuff you can get at Whole Foods or, you know, not like specialty market. So really proud of that. And we also made a big batch of kanji this week that was with like crumbled tofu on top. And John, my husband, was a little bit sick and so that was what he was going to.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that's perfect for sick day food.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, it's great. What about you two?

[Megan Scott]

Did you ever go to Boxer ramen?

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Do you remember their okonomiyaki tots?

[Shannon Larson]

Yes.

[Megan Scott]

Okay, well, we made okonomiyaki tots, so Okonomiyaki is a Japanese like savory pancake made usually with cabbage and like a grated, say, type of yam. But it's real sticky and gooey when you grate it. So it kind of helps hold everything together. This is okonomiyaki only in the sense of the toppings because literally just we bought some frozen tots and baked them and then topped them with kewpie mayonnaise, the bulldog sauce, and then the katsuobushi, the fish flakes and green onion.

[John Becker]

Furikake.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, furikake. So that was just like a fun.

[Shannon Larson]

It's fun cuz it looks like it's like dancing too because the heat makes the fish flakes. Yeah, I love that.

[John Becker]

Yeah, we got the correct kind of katsui that, you know, is really dancing on there. I tried to take a video, didn't really work out, but you know.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. We've got to work on our dimly lit kitchen. It's just not great for food photography. I'm in spring garden mode, so I've been planting a bunch of stuff and getting the garden ready and starting seeds in the garage.

[Shannon Larson]

So it's so exciting.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's so exciting. I'm so ready.

[Shannon Larson]

Me too.

[Megan Scott]

It might be a little early actually, but I don't.

[Shannon Larson]

I think that it's not too early if your brain is just needing it. Yeah, you're fine.

[Megan Scott]

This week we'd like to welcome guest Kathy Barro to the table. We're so excited to have you today, Kathy. Kathy is an award winning author, a passionate knitter, gardener and cook. She has written four cookbooks. Mrs. Wheelbarrow's Practical Pantry, Pie, When Pies Fly and Bagels Schmears, and A Nice Piece of Fish. Kathy won an IACP award for best single subject cookbook for Mrs. Wheelbarrow's Practical Pantry and was Nominated for a James Beard Award in the baking category for Pie Squared. For several years, she wrote a monthly preserving column for the New York Times and a monthly food column for the Washington Post. Kathy's work has been published by Serious Eats, Food52, the Local Palate, Modern Farmer, Garden & Gun, Southern Living, NPR, and National Geographic. She retired a few miles north of Washington, D.C. with her husband, Dennis, and two rescued terriers. Kathy, welcome to the show. Hi.

[Kathy Barro]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Megan Scott]

I feel like the first time I became aware of your work was through Food52, many, many years ago, probably early 2010s. That is so fun to remember, because I remember they had such an active forum on the site that I used all the time. But, yeah, your recipes have been with us for a long time.

[Kathy Barro]

Thank you. I loved Food52, and it really was the first time that I found myself in a community of people who cooked with the same level of passion, insanity that I did. Like, I need to make this cake, and it didn't work, so I'm going to make it 47 times until I get it down. And really, most of my friends thought I was insane, but there suddenly was this whole community of people who were like, yeah, I do that, too. It was. It was wonderful. It was really great.

[Megan Scott]

It's nice to not feel alone in that. Like, I have to do this thing, and I don't care if it takes me 50 times. Right.

[Kathy Barro]

And there are still so many recipes from those early days that I continue to make the insanely addictive asparagus. I look forward to that every year. It's so good. It's just, you know, got lemon zest and pancetta, and I can't even remember everything, but it's wonderful. And a Brussels sprout recipe, so I. I returned to it over and over again.

[Megan Scott]

Do you remember how that the asparagus is cooked? Is it steamed or roasted or grilled?

[Kathy Barro]

It's in a skillet, so I think that it's steamed in the skillet and then finished. It's just wonderful.

[Megan Scott]

Nice. I'll have to look that one up this year. It's almost time for asparagus.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, I just wrote it down.

[Kathy Barro]

I look it up every year when it's asparagus time, and then I make it until the asparagus is gone.

[Megan Scott]

As a gardener, what are you up to right now in the garden? Are you prepping anything yet?

[Kathy Barro]

Oh, my gosh, everything. I'm seeing all of my violas coming up, the ones that I planted last fall, and they're really getting vigorous and full of flowers, which is great. And all my daffodils are up and starting to bloom with all the succession. But in the vegetable garden, I have a removable greenhouse cover that fits over one of my raised beds. I put that up about a month ago. And I have all of my winter greens. I've got lettuce and spinach and bok choy and chard and kale, all vigorously growing. Had my first salad three nights ago, so that was great.

[Megan Scott]

Lovely.

[Kathy Barro]

Yeah. And I seeded radishes, carrots, turnips, and arugula just the other day. So everything's coming. And I finally have some tulips. When we moved to this house five years ago, the first year, I planted, like, 400 tulips. And the moles and bulls and squirrels and rabbits, everyone. And then I decided I was going to figure that out and try every year I've been trying. And this year, I finally put huge cages over the area that I planted them and buried the cages so nobody could get under them. And I can't wait.

[Megan Scott]

It's similar to the, you know, oh, this cake didn't work the first time. I'm going to try 50 more times with gardening. It's the same.

[Kathy Barro]

People have no idea why I would continue to plant tulips. I'm like, you don't understand. I need to have them. The other thing I did last week was plant all my potatoes, and I saw on Instagram that you're doing potatoes for the first time.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I just planted some yesterday, so I'm really excited to see how they do.

[Kathy Barro]

I always plant them on St. Patrick's Day.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, that's a beneficial.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I put some wire over the. I'm growing them in bags, so I put some chicken wire over the bags. Not for other animals, but for cats. Oh, we have a bunch of neighborhood cats, and they love nothing more than fresh dirt. So I've got to protect everything from cats.

[Kathy Barro]

Good move. We have rabbits, like, a lot of them. And when we moved in here, a gardener walked by when I was building my first gardens, and she said, well, you know, it's either a hawk year or a bunny year. So I'm really waiting for a hawk year. Yeah, I planted. I planted Concord grapes because I read Aesop's Fable, and I'm like, bring it in, foxes. I want you. Yeah, I'm not feeling very fond of bunnies right now.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, they're cute from a distance. I like them, but not in my garden. I have kind of a Niche question for you. So I was reading the introduction to Bagels, Schmears and a Nice Piece of Fish and read that you might be a licorice fan. Do you.

[Kathy Barro]

I love licorice.

[Megan Scott]

Are you a black licorice fan? Like, what. What type?

[Kathy Barro]

I love the salty licorice the best.

[Megan Scott]

Yes.

[Kathy Barro]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

So good. I think we're all on team licorice.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah. Such a minority thing, though.

[Megan Scott]

Like, it's. I know.

[Shannon Larson]

So many people don't like it. I love it.

[Megan Scott]

I love it more for us. Yeah, exactly.

[John Becker]

I don't think they're being sold out there, but. Yeah. We should send you some Jacobson salt. Black licorice.

[Kathy Barro]

Oh, my gosh, that must be fantastic.

[John Becker]

It is so good.

[Megan Scott]

Excellent. Yeah, we'll send you a box.

[Kathy Barro]

Oh, thank you.

[John Becker]

Definitely my favorite.

[Megan Scott]

So this week, our theme is sourdough bread baking. And so to get us into the mood to talk about sourdough, today on the tasting segment, we are going to have some sourdough bread with whipped feta and radishes and radish sprouts. So the bread is from a local bakery called Ken's Artisan Bakery, and they make our favorite sourdough bread. So our strategy for having fresh sourdough on hand all the time is Ken's makes these giant loaves. Do you remember the. Like, how much they weigh?

[John Becker]

I think it's a three kilogram boule.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. So three. So that's about seven pounds, ish. Or just under seven pounds. And so what we do, because we don't live close to this bakery, so it's a special thing when we go. So we buy the giant loaf, and then we cut it into quarters and then freeze the quarters, and it freezes super well.

[Shannon Larson]

This is really. Well.

[Megan Scott]

Um, so then we have bread for, like, a month, and it's lovely.

[Shannon Larson]

My husband bakes sourdough at home, and that's what we do. We bake two bowls at a time, like.

[Megan Scott]

Right.

[Shannon Larson]

And so we eat one through the week, and then we cut up the other one and freeze it. And then I just have. We have, like, a ton of sourdough in our deep freezer, which is great, because if you want croutons or anything else, you just pull it out and then it's ready to go.

[Megan Scott]

I love that. Yeah. Kathy, do you have a favorite local sourdough source or do you make it yourself?

[Kathy Barro]

I make it myself. Back in 2020, when I was still writing for the Washington Post, I built my own sourdough starter from, you know, the air. And that Was very exciting and I kept it going. And I think I. I make two loaves probably every two weeks. And just this morning I made cast off English muffins, which is another one of our real favorites, with a neighbor because she had been having some failures. So she came over and I continue to be a teacher, even in retirement. So she came over and we made muffins together. They were really good. So I do that. And what else do I. I do a lot with my sourdough starter. I make waffles on the regular. I make crackers, so I like having it.

[Megan Scott]

All this thinking about sourdough this week has made me want to restart our starter.

[John Becker]

It should be brought back.

[Kathy Barro]

Have you ever dehydrated it?

[Megan Scott]

I have never tasted that.

[Kathy Barro]

So if you spread it out on a pan and put it in the dehydrator really low, you'll get these sort of flat sheets of starter and you can keep it forever and then just rehydrate it and start it up again. It's kind of handy.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

So cool.

[Megan Scott]

I feel like I was reading something. This was maybe a couple years ago, but I was reading something about how they found ancient sourdough starter. And then it was. It was dried, like on a. On the inside of a container, and they were able to take it and make a new sourdough starter with it still after all this time.

[Shannon Larson]

So cool.

[Megan Scott]

So cool.

[Shannon Larson]

That's really cool.

[Kathy Barro]

That's how I ship it to friends.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, that's such a good idea. What a nice gift to give somebody.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

Kathy, does your starter have a name?

[Kathy Barro]

No. I feel really bad about that. I apologize every time. I never named it.

[Megan Scott]

Let's talk about the.

[Shannon Larson]

What we just tasted so good.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. I love this bread so much because the texture is always just so good like it is. It's almost like it's moist.

[Shannon Larson]

Well, it also actually tastes a little sour, which is nice. Like, you can. You can feel that in the back of your tongue and a feeling which sometimes you don't get when you get sourdough. I like it. I like it sour. It's my personal preference, so. Also anything topped with radishes.

[Megan Scott]

I know. Yeah. We went over to Shannon's house last night for cocktails and snacks, and there were radishes and butter.

[Shannon Larson]

There's always radishes and butter in my house.

[Megan Scott]

So good.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah. This bread is wonderful.

[Sarah Marshall]

Sarah Marshall of Marshall's Hot Sauce here looking for a hot sauce that's a little different. Let me introduce you to Tortuga Gordo Fermented. Hot sauce, makers of the Good food award winning Green Cobra and rotten Jerk hot sauces out of Portland, Oregon. Tortuga Gordo is waiting for you in the refrigerator section of market of choice New Seasons and your local co op or bodega. Or find them online at www.tortugagordo.com. that's T O R T U G A G O R D o dot com. They're not with the other hot sauces because they're not like the other hot sauces.

[Megan Scott]

So let's talk briefly about the recipe we made last week for Joy Scouts. So we made frijoles de la Hoya. John, do you want to talk about kind of how we use them over the course of a week?

[John Becker]

Yeah. So we did just like the basic Frijoles de la Hoya recipe with some Domingo Rojo beans from Steve at Rancho Gordo. Usually for cooking like tacos or in this case, we're like, you know, it was kind of an excuse really, to fire up the grill and make some carne asada. And to serve with, we did, I guess it would be frijoles borracho, drunken beans. You know, usually those have like a ton of meat in them as well. But yeah, we just start off with like this, you know, kind of a lazily fried sofrito of onions, chilaka chilies or poblanos and smashed garlic cloves. Make sure that gets nice and maybe not browned, but just concentrated and nice and soft. Just add the beans. I think it was about a quart of beans with some of the liquid, depending on what we have. Usually it's a pretty big can, a tall boy can of Mexican lager, bring that to a simmer with halved dried chipotle, usually a morita chili, dried Mexican oregano, epazote if we have it. And yeah, for sure a bay leaf in there. But yeah, just cook that down until it's the consistency you want. Sometimes, you know, we like to serve that in a bowl, so just kind of have it more of a soupy consistency. And then a lot of the time we're topping tostadas or something, I'll really cook it down and kind of mash it up a bit. Yeah, mash it with the potato masher.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. I come from bean people, so I.

[Shannon Larson]

Could eat every time you say that. It's so funny.

[Megan Scott]

I could eat beans every day, which we don't do because of, you know, digestive problems, but I could absolutely eat them every single day. I grew up, my grandmother, every weekend would make A big pot of. She called them October beans, but they were just borlatti or cranberry beans. They were like a soupy style actually called Appalachian pot beans. But it's really just a very simple way of cooking them with maybe she would add some ham hock or something, salt, and that was pretty much it. But they make their own kind of gravy. I don't know. They're just so rich and delicious. And we would always have it with cornbread, and then there would be like, chow, chow or some kind of pickle on the table that you would eat with the beans. And so, yeah, I could just. I could eat them every day. I love them so much. But this week's recipe, since we're talking about bread, we're not going to make everybody do sourdough. That seems like a lot to ask for one week. I think everyone should read the section on sourdough in Joy of Cooking because we added it new in this edition, and we're really proud of it. And this was during a period I said, I don't do sourdough now, but I did do sourdough baking a lot. And it's just a really fun. I think it's a really fun section to read. This week's recipe is going to be the dill batter loaf, which is on page 600. It's kind of between a quick bread and a yeast bread because it has a more. It's more of a batter than a dough, but it is yeasted, and it's got green onion, dill, cottage cheese, and buttermilk. So it's like savory and rich and soft and lots and lots of dill. So that is going to be our Joy Scouts recipe of the week. So please cook along with us and let us know what you think. You can tag us on Instagram he Joy of Cooking and show us what you're baking. Okay. Kathy, what is your relationship with the Joy of Cooking?

[Kathy Barro]

When I moved into my first apartment, I was just 18. I was taking some time off from school and working at a pancake house just to give you a sense of my beginnings in food. But my mother sent me a box with the Joy of Cooking, the New York Times Cookbook, and Julia Child Mastering the Art. And that was how she felt I should start my kitchen. And once I got into college, my best friend taught me lemon bars out of the joy book. And it has been a recipe that I make over and over and over again. And while I use joy for everything, for the longest time, I Think that my strongest relationship has to do with baking. Ginger snaps, lemon bars, lemon meringue pie, a few things like that. And also sauces. I remember very distinctly spending time learning how to make all the sauces in the book. Cheese sauce and white sauce, and just wanting to make sauces. So those are my relationships. I have. I have three copies.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, lovely.

[Kathy Barro]

I have my grandmother's 1943 edition.

[Megan Scott]

Beautiful.

[Kathy Barro]

The one my mother gave me, which is, of course, that one.

[Megan Scott]

So 75.

[John Becker]

Yeah.

[Kathy Barro]

And then yours.

[John Becker]

Our bestseller.

[Kathy Barro]

Yes. You know, we do have a connection through Maria Coronascelli on that one, who was my first editor.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

So you don't have a 1997 edition? Can't believe I don't.

[Kathy Barro]

I feel really bad. But that's my. My Joy collection, and I do still reach for it on the regular. It's got great details, great information. It's like, without Joy, where would my kitchen be?

[Megan Scott]

I love that so much. Which edition do you pull down the most?

[Kathy Barro]

I've been pulling the new one down more frequently because I feel compelled. I know you guys. I want to be supportive. I want to see what's happening. But when I go to make my lemon bars, I go back to the 75, because it just. It just falls right open there. I don't even have to look for the page.

[Megan Scott]

We recently. We do keep a copy of Joy in our kitchen because we just. It's just a good reference, and we also want to see if, you know, is there anything we want to change or did we miss something or goof somewhere? But we just swapped out our kitchen copy because it got so encrusted with food that it was actually kind of disgusting. I was like, I don't think we can use this anymore. I don't think it's safe to have this in the kitchen. So I wanted to ask you some bagel questions.

[Kathy Barro]

Excellent.

[Megan Scott]

Because I love that cookbook so much. How did you become interested, first of all, in making bagels at home?

[Kathy Barro]

An essential part of my kitchen activity is learning to make anything I can by myself and not having to purchase it. I think that that's the crux bagels. You could not get a good bagel for the longest time. And I had this relationship with bagels through my grandmother in Boston, who would fly to us in Ohio with a hat box filled with bagels on the regular and the smell of them and just that experience. And also my mother's joy in receiving this great bread. I've always loved a bagel, and when I traveled to New York A lot. It was the first thing I did and the last thing I did, always. And I became obsessed with trying to make my own. And there weren't a lot of recipes out. And I just kept fiddling around and I had everything wrong. But I tried bringing water back from New York City because I thought that was the answer, but really the answer was the flour, which is a high gluten flour. And I didn't know that existed until, I don't know, 15 years ago, maybe. The Washington Post published a recipe and it was good. And I was like, wow, these are really good bagels. But I felt that there were some things about that recipe that could be improved. It made just too many. There were aspects of it that were missing, like the weight and timing. And so I started to think about not just providing recipes for bagels, all the flavors, even ones that I personally would never order, but, you know, just making a full book. And also all the other aspects of bagel culture, the schmears, the smoked and cured fish, the salads, all of that. And the idea was, came to me sort of full blown and I got the book deal on March 13, 2020, which lives in infamy as the day that we all stop seeing people. So I then spent the next six months making bagels, lots of them. You know what it's like to test for a cookbook. I was putting out three or four dozen bagels a day sometimes. And I knew nobody in the town that we had just moved to, literally no one. And it wasn't like you could go knocking on people's door because it was Covid. So I began this process of packing up the bagels and shipping them by flat rate boxes to my friends in D.C. because I hate waste. Here, take some bagels. So they stopped. They begged me not to do that anymore. So. But it was a good way to spend six months of 2020.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that's in a way, that's perfect timing, right?

[John Becker]

Did not wanting to waste. And having so many bagels around, did that influence your decision to keep the yield so low for that book? Or was it just.

[Kathy Barro]

No, I really felt that, first of all, a fresh bagel is the only bagel. I mean, leftover bagels don't make it for me. I freeze them now. And I know this. I have this process of taking them whole from the freezer, putting them in a 350 oven for 10 minutes, and they come out as though I just baked them. But at the time I was like, I do not want more than six. There's two of us. Six is the perfect number. And. And also it fits on a 9 by 13 quarter sheet pan, which fits in the refrigerator more easily. Many people have small refrigerators, it's just easier. I've always tried to write my books with a consciousness of people's kitchen size, family size, all of that. Even my preserving books, going back to the yield on my jams, it was four or five jars, not 12 or 15 because it's two of us. We could never get through five different kinds of jam, 12 or 15 jars of each.

[John Becker]

So you're not always putting up a bumper crop of tomatoes or what have you?

[Kathy Barro]

No, I have a third of an acre. I mean, I don't live on a farm.

[Shannon Larson]

Kathy My husband was just in New York for work and the one thing I requested that he bring back were bagels. And that's what he did right before he went to JFK was he got a bunch of bagels and I just had one this morning. And now I'm going to use your tip on warming it up, which is helpful. But he also is the baker in the family, but he's been really nervous about trying it at home for some reason and I'm not quite sure why. But do you have any suggestions for people who are feeling like they need a little bit of confidence to try baking bagels or any recommendations on how to actually do it?

[Kathy Barro]

Yeah, I've always had a theory that people have three ways of learning. They either read or they watch or they do. And so I try to make my instructions as precise as possible. And I think in the bagel book they are even up to if you start at 7:00 at night, then you're going to want to bake it, you know, this hour of the morning and sort of putting a timeline together. But I also have a very ignored and small YouTube channel that has critical video on how to make bagels, so maybe that will be helpful also. It's just fluff hour.

[John Becker]

Yeah, we'll be sure to put a link to that YouTube in the notes for the episode.

[Megan Scott]

So I know you make your own bagels famously, but if you're going to a bagel, a really good bagel shop and you want to buy a dozen bagels, what does your order look like?

[Kathy Barro]

6 everything. And a few others for my husband.

[Megan Scott]

What does your husband like?

[Kathy Barro]

Sesame primarily, or plain? Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Okay.

[Kathy Barro]

My husband is a very picky eater and a vegetarian as well. And so it's been 25 years of bringing him along slowly. But there are some things he just wants nothing to do with everything. Spice is one of them.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, we usually get a dozen everything. That's our typical order for bagels.

[Kathy Barro]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

Are you on Team Caraway when it comes to your everything blend or personally?

[Kathy Barro]

Yes, but when I'm making for a crowd, no, because it. It really separates the meek from the strong.

[Megan Scott]

I'll remember that. I like that. You also have a bagel in your book that I have never tried, which is an egg bagel. Can you talk a little bit about what egg bagels are?

[Kathy Barro]

Egg bagels were very prevalent when I was growing up. You see fewer of them now, and they were bright yellow and kind of bizarre. To me, it's like challah shaped like a bagel. But I know some people truly love that rich, eggy, sweet flavor. It's very different. It has a different crust, a different crumb, but it can be very delicious with certain foods. I like an egg bagel with sardines. It's really good. It's like the sweetness and the salty and the brine.

[Megan Scott]

It's nice adding that to my bucket list, my food bucket list. I'm going to shift gears a little into canning and preserving, because I didn't want to neglect that subject. But for us, we kind of mark the seasons by canning specific things. Like, we always make our apricot jam when the apricots are really good, and we always do apple butter in the fall. What are your must do canning projects every year?

[Kathy Barro]

Well, I can tell you that March is when I use everything that I made last year, and I've been, like, afraid to use, because what if I run out of it? So I've been deep into the tomatoes this month. I made tomato soup. I made enchiladas last night. You know, I'm just, like, using the tomatoes. And I am looking forward to asparagus, because I will pickle asparagus. I use those in Bloody Marys during the summer. It's really a nice addition. And small onions, when they come in the really baby ones, I like to pickle those for cocktails. So I'm looking forward to pickling those things and then to seeing the first strawberries. And I'll do strawberry jam, but I usually do strawberries with mango because the mango provides enough pectin to make it sturdy without additional pectin. And the combination of the two flavors is really nice, especially if you can get those champagne mangoes or whatever they're called now. Honey mangoes.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. So is that recipe in your book?

[Kathy Barro]

I think that's in the New York Times.

[Megan Scott]

Okay, I'll look for it. That sounds delicious. And I actually didn't realize that mangoes had a lot of pectin, but that's fascinating.

[Kathy Barro]

I don't like to use commercial pectin. I'm just funny about it. I don't feel that there's any need if you cook right. And you do. I just have a few tricks, you know, macerating, taking the juices out and bringing them up to 220 degrees and then adding your fruit so it doesn't cook for very long. And also being open minded to jams that aren't thick like we're used to, but a little bit runnier, which works with yogurt really nicely.

[Shannon Larson]

Those champagne mangoes make one of my favorite. I do that every year. Get a box, like a box or two of them from the store. And it's just such a good jam on its own, too.

[Megan Scott]

Those are great.

[Kathy Barro]

There's a mango chutney recipe on Food52 that I developed that is also really lovely at this time of year with those mangoes.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, perfect.

[John Becker]

Yeah. Using champagne mangoes as opposed to, like grating apple for. For the pectin.

[Kathy Barro]

Definitely sounds like the other thing that works is kiwi.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, okay. And I bet that blends in really nicely.

[Kathy Barro]

It does. You get those little black seeds, but with strawberries, you don't know.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Kathy Barro]

And. And it has. Kiwis don't actually have that strong a flavor. It's more like a citrus or just an acidic bite. That is very pleasant.

[Megan Scott]

Excellent tip. So do you just. Do you just chop them up or do you blend them? How do you incorporate?

[Kathy Barro]

Just chop them up and cook them and they break down.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, that's great to know. I love kiwi, too.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's delicious. Let's try it. Kathy, before we move on to the next segment, where can our listeners follow you?

[Kathy Barro]

Instagram, Blue Sky. That's about it. These days. I'm kind of slowing down on my social media activities.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I mean, same sounds nice and healthy. Yeah.

[Kathy Barro]

Yeah. Well, I'm trying.

[Megan Scott]

And you should definitely buy at least one of Kathy's books. I really love the preserving book, Mrs. Wheelbarrow's Practical Pantry, and then the bagel book, Bagels Schmears, and A Nice Piece of Fish. They're excellent books and you should check them out.

[Kathy Barro]

Thank you.

[Shannon Larson]

Also, I just love the titles. All of the titles are so fun.

[Kathy Barro]

I will always remember teaching a class with the Mrs. Wheelbarrow book when they misprinted the COVID sheet and it said Mrs. Wheelbarrow's Practical Panties.

[Megan Scott]

Are you serious? Serious? I am.

[Kathy Barro]

And so every time somebody says it out loud, I'm like, please, please, God.

[Megan Scott]

Wow. Okay. To recover from that. All right. Each week we choose a topic to tackle based on caller questions. And this week, we're talking about sourdough bread.

[Haley]

Hi, I'm calling for the Joy of Cooking podcast. My name is Haley. I'm a huge foodie and lover of all things bread. I found myself looking for a food podcast at the beginning of this year, 2025, and I stumbled upon the Joy of Cooking, and it's been an absolute dream to listen to. I want to know everything you all know about bread, specifically sourdough and sourdough starters. But I'm also very curious about more straightforward and delicious loaf making for beginners. Thank you.

[Megan Scott]

Thanks for the question, Haley. This is a very large topic to cover in 10 to 15 minutes. We're going to have to hit the highlights. And like Kathy was saying earlier, you know, a lot of people learn by just doing the thing. And I think that with bread, especially sourdough, you just have to kind of do it and try stuff, and then you eventually do get a feel for what it should look, feel, smell like, because it's so. It's not like most recipes where you just. You mix some things together, you have predictable results in a predictable amount of time. It really varies depending on how cold it is, how active your starter is. But my biggest advice after saying all that is don't overthink it. Because I feel like there's so much sourdough lore out there that is not super helpful. And it can be really. I remember being really intimidated by starting sourdough, making a sourdough starter, because I would read these books, and it was like, well, you need to have a heating mat for your sourdough starter, and you need to do. Here's the time, like, start it at 6pm and then do this at 8. And I think that felt stressful to me. I'm gonna tell a story that's kind of funny, but years ago, we were able to meet Samin Nosrat at her home, and who she is very lovely. She's as lovely as she seems. But we were talking about making bread, and I was telling her that I really fell in love with the tartine sourdough bread recipe because it, for once, it was the first recipe that I was like, oh, I can totally do this. The way they described making the bread was so freeing. It was kind of like, you know, you can add you can just eyeball the flour and the water that you add to your starter. Don't worry too much about it. And then it would, you know, they talked about to know when the sourdough starter is ready, like when it rises and falls predictably, like every day. And it kind of looks the same. That's when you know it's good to use for bread. And for some reason that just clicked with me. Also that the recipe has a ton of pictures, which is super helpful. But I told that to Samin and she laughed so hard because she was like, megan, that is a 20 page recipe. I was like, but it's all photos. It's mostly photos.

[Shannon Larson]

That's the one my husband still uses.

[Megan Scott]

Like, that's his.

[Shannon Larson]

Go to the tartine. Again, we're talking about pages of books that are like crusty and gross. It's like that 20 pages. Those are disgusting. But it's used all the time. The pictures are so helpful.

[Megan Scott]

They are so helpful to see what it looks like. And the stretching, because that recipe uses a stretching and folding process. So it's not. You're not kneading it, but you do every once in a while you pull the dough and you stretch it and then fold it over, which was a new technique to me. And so seeing it demonstrated it was just really, really helpful. In terms of other advice, I mean, I think you should read, read the sourdough section in Joy of Cooking, which is pretty inspired by the tartine method and recip recipe just because it's such a. There's no kneading. It's a lot more hands off than I ever thought bread baking could be. And the loaves turn out really well. Like, I distinctly remember making my first loaf from that recipe. And when it came out of the oven, I could not believe it. I was almost freaked out. It was so good and it looked like, you know, a crusty sourdough loaf. It was beautiful. So, but a couple of other tips for sourdough baking. So like I said, when this, when you're feeding your starter, don't think too hard about the measurements. Like, add some flour, add some water, until it is kind of a loose, like almost pancake batter consistency. And then, yeah, when it starts to rise and fall every day in a predictable way, so that at the roughly the same time of day you're feeding it, it's ready to bake bread. And then to know the starter is really ready and really active, if you take a spoonful and drop it in some water, it should float because it should be full of air bubbles, so it should float in water. Other than that, I feel like it's really just something you have to make and try it out, and you're probably gonna have some failures, and that's okay.

[Shannon Larson]

I think that's the best way to learn how to bake bread, though. I feel like the times where we, quote, unquote, failed with our bread baking. We learned tons about when we should be baking or what the starter should look like. So I think just being comfortable, if it just doesn't turn out the way you want it to a couple of times, we still sometimes, like, because it's too cold or whatever, it will be dense. And, you know, sometimes it just happens. Sometimes it doesn't work out, and that's okay too.

[John Becker]

I feel like sourdough is a kind of a funny area of baking, just because a lot of it is, as you say. Like, I'm sure some people could be weighing things out to the gram for their. For their. For their starters and whatnot and do. And that's what's so intimidating. But, you know, it seems. It definitely seems like an intuitive thing that you kind of have to read your starter, like you say, and that's kind of at odds with the accuracy and precision that baking, you know, has a reputation, at least for requiring.

[Megan Scott]

I will say. When I first made my starter, I did weigh the water in the flour every time until I learned what the correct consistency was, because when you're starting out, you just don't know what it's supposed to look like. And so I did weigh it, and then once I kind of got the hang of it, I was like, okay, I can stop weighing now and just add the flour and water until it looks right. But, yeah, it's like a combination of a precise baking technique and kind of voodoo magic.

[John Becker]

Well, yeah. It's kind of reminded me of the discussion we have with Julia Skinner about fermentation recipes and how just by their very nature, they. They require a lot more intuition than. Than your normal white sauce recipe or what have you.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Kathy, do you have any advice on sourdough baking for our listener?

[Kathy Barro]

I use the tartine recipe for a long time, and I use the book, and I have it right in front of me and turn the pages and look at the pictures, and it always made me nervous. I know it's a really excellent recipe, and I made good bread from it, but it felt daunting, like I had to plan a day, and I was sent at some point. I was sent the New World sourdough I think it's called, by Brian Ford. And it is a very simplified way of thinking about sourdough. And that recipe has stuck with me. It has a levant that you make ahead. And that levant, I think, really helps my bread get some lift and have some life. And then the other piece of advice is if you think that it's been in the refrigerator getting ready to bake long enough, add two hours. It needs a lot of time. People don't really know, like, when I tell people, if you want to learn to make sourdough, you need to plan two or three days for each loaf. That's just like what you do. It's a mistake to bake it too early. That's when I get those very dense loaves that become croutons or breadcrumbs or something like that. That's my best advice. And don't get too worked up about making designs on the top.

[Megan Scott]

Right.

[Kathy Barro]

That's like, that's really going to take too much mental energy. Just get a razor blade and slash it.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I still struggle with that even though I've had a lot of practice, like doing the razor blade thing. But I aspire. And I liked what you said about, you know, the tartine recipes felt daunting to you, so you found one that made more sense, which is really great advice. Like, if you read a recipe and it just is not, you're not getting it or it feels scary or intimidating, there's probably another one out there that is a better approach. And it just depends on your personality.

[Shannon Larson]

And, like how you learn.

[Megan Scott]

Exactly.

[Kathy Barro]

And there's actually not much difference between the one that Brian makes and the tartine one. It's also a folding one and all that, but for some reason, the language in it and the simplified instructions really work for me.

[Megan Scott]

I love that. Thank you for that recommendation. And in terms of just yeast bread baking, John, I feel like you should talk about the tangzhong.

[John Becker]

Oh, right. That is something special, the tangzhong. It's also called flour roux, another way that I've heard it. But yeah, you basically are just, you're.

[Megan Scott]

Just making a thick roux and then you cool it down and add it to the dough.

[John Becker]

Right. And then it ends up up hydrating some of the flour and you end up with like a really nice kind of dense but fluffy crumb.

[Megan Scott]

And it also, I think that keeps it from staling. I think that the tangzhong keeps it really moist and fresh tasting for days. That's just a really nice loaf because it's pretty. I feel like it's fairly straightforward to make. And when it comes out of the oven, it is beautiful. Like it's just golden and big and I don't know, it's a very satisfying and good loaf of bread for sandwiches and things like that.

[Shannon Larson]

I want to make this this week.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, you should try it.

[Kathy Barro]

As long as there are eggs around. I'm making challah on a regular basis, too, because that's a great bread to have. It's great in the freezer. It's French toast. It's everything wonderful.

[Megan Scott]

And I feel like challah always turns out beautifully as well. Like it's just an impressive, gorgeous braid.

[Kathy Barro]

Even if you can't braid, the braids look okay. You know, once it's all glazed and puffy and beautiful.

[Megan Scott]

If you have a topic, ingredient or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-3958. Leave us a message or send us a text. We'd love to hear from you. And next week's topic comes from our caller.

[Ashley]

This is Ashley calling from Denver. Thank you for your wonderful podcast. It has quickly become my favorite. My question is about cooking for a 12 year old who loves sushi. He also really likes ramen and noodle dishes, but I'm looking to expand his horizons a little more and especially to incorporate more vegetables into the Asian spectrum of foods we eat. So it seems like you have a lot of ideas about using different vegetables. And if you have any recipes for not stir fries but noodles, I would love to hear them. Thanks.

[Megan Scott]

Thank you so much for that question, Ashley. I'm really looking forward to answering it. Food for an adventurous 12 year old.

[Shannon Larson]

I love it.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. All right, so what are we doing this week, everybody? What are you excited about cooking?

[Shannon Larson]

We got some fioretto, which is a type of cauliflower from a market here in Portland called Provador. The produce comes from this place called Rubinette. And I've never had it before and we are going to cook it tonight. We didn't cook it last night. I know we asked you, but we ended up getting a pizza from Vincenzo's Great Minds.

[Megan Scott]

Well, we had a frozen pizza, but.

[Shannon Larson]

But it's, it looks beautiful. And I'm just, we're gonna pair it with some salmon and some Brussels sprouts. Kind of simple meal. And then we make our own chicken stock. We just put everything in the freezer, like veggie bits and chicken bits and stuff. But we used the carcass from Samin's Buttermilk Chicken for the stock. Last week and the stock is so, so good. And I know it's going to be like fall, spring again here in Portland, but I'm going to make soup. I just have to like, I just wanted the stock. If you ever make Samin's buttermilk chicken recipe, use the carcass, make a stock. It's so rich. It's so beautiful.

[Megan Scott]

That sounds good. I'm going to come over and have some of that.

[Shannon Larson]

Okay.

[Megan Scott]

It's John's birthday this week on Tuesday, so happy birthday.

[Kathy Barro]

Happy birthday. Happy birthday.

[Shannon Larson]

Thank you.

[Megan Scott]

Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts and itunes. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram hejoyofcooking. Stay tuned for next week where we will talk about veggie forward dishes for an adventurous 12 year old. And don't forget to make this week's recipe, dill batter loaf on page 600 of the 2019 edition. Call in with questions, hopes, history, or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

[Shannon Larson]

And we could not do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation production house. Thank you to Dave Dresky, our production coordinator, Haley Bowers, our audio engineer, and Sarah Marshall, our producer.