A Casual Culinary Chat About Recipe Writing With Dr. Julia Skinner

Summary

The Joy of Cooking Podcast: A Casual Culinary Chat About Recipe Writing With Dr. Julia Skinner

Release Date: February 26, 2025

Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Joy of Cooking Podcast, hosts John Becker, Megan Scott, and Shannon Larson welcome Dr. Julia Skinner, a renowned food writer and expert in fermentation, to discuss the intricacies of recipe writing. The conversation seamlessly blends personal anecdotes, culinary insights, and practical advice, making it a delightful listen for both seasoned cooks and kitchen novices.

Guest Introduction: Dr. Julia Skinner

Megan Scott introduces Dr. Julia Skinner as a distinguished food writer whose acclaimed book, Our Fermented Lives, delves into the art and science of fermentation. Dr. Skinner also leads Root, a community-focused food consulting organization, and Roots and Branches, where she coaches writers to refine their culinary narratives.

Recent Culinary Adventures

Shannon Larson (00:38) shares her recent foray into roasting fennel, pairing it with roasted chicken thighs and a citrus burrata salad adorned with crushed pistachios. She highlights the rich, indescribable flavor that roasting brings out in fennel.

Megan Scott (03:17) discusses her immersion in the book North Woods by Daniel Mason, which sparked her interest in a nearly extinct apple variety, Osgood's Favorite, prompting her to explore its historical significance and potential revival.

Recipe Writing and Fermentation Insights

Dr. Skinner delves into her passion for fermentation, explaining how it began as a practical necessity and evolved into a creative and cultural exploration.

Dr. Julia Skinner (06:42): "I'm creating food along with these microbes. We're working together to make something. It connects me to place. It connects me to time and the local food that's available to me."

She emphasizes the balance between specificity and flexibility in recipe writing, drawing parallels between fermentation and creative processes.

Megan Scott (25:19) highlights the evolution of recipe formats, praising Irma Rombauer’s innovative "action method" in The Joy of Cooking, which integrates ingredients within the narrative steps, enhancing readability and user experience.

Tasting Segment: Showstopper Cookies

The hosts introduce Showstopper Cookies, a local business founded by Andrea, who perfected her chocolate chip cookie recipe over a decade. They discuss the meticulous process Andrea underwent to create the perfect chewy, buttery cookies adorned with flaky salt and high-quality ingredients like Ghirardelli chocolate.

Shannon Larson (15:37): "They smell really good."

Megan Scott (16:13): "If you look at the chocolate chip cookie recipe that we did for Joy, we were developing a recipe for a chewier chocolate chip cookie... it's such a hard recipe to perfect."

Listener Engagement and Recipe Sharing

The episode features interactive segments where listeners share their cooking experiences. Particularly, a farmer inquires about writing recipes for market-stand vegetables, leading the hosts to provide thoughtful advice on recipe attribution and personalization.

Megan Scott (44:00): "You can't copyright a recipe. If you're asking for permission to use Joy of Cooking recipes, we're cool with it... Just let people know where they come from."

Deep Dive: The Art of Recipe Writing

The conversation shifts to the challenges and nuances of recipe writing. Dr. Skinner and the hosts discuss the importance of sensory cues, flexibility, and empathy in crafting recipes that are both precise and adaptable.

Jon Becker (46:02) explains the necessity of providing multiple indicators for cooking steps to accommodate varying kitchen environments:

"You should always be giving two indicators for when a particular cooking step is done. So example, saute until golden brown, about 10 minutes. So there you have a visual cue as well as a time estimate." (46:02)

Dr. Julia Skinner (51:36): "It reduces some of the stakes too. It makes it less of a 'I'm going to mess up' and more of a 'I'm going to experiment and see what I can do.'"

They explore the collaborative nature of cooking, viewing recipe execution as a dynamic interaction between the author and the cook.

Fermentation Fundamentals

Dr. Skinner offers practical tips for budding fermenters, recommending simple projects like sauerkraut and fermented carrot sticks to build confidence.

Dr. Julia Skinner (36:11): "Lacto fermented vegetables are such an accessible starting place... It's an easy way to build confidence."

She discusses the cultural ubiquity of fermentation and its evolution from a preservation method to a flavorful, transformative culinary practice.

Dr. Julia Skinner (37:40): "There's something about working with food that transforms, and that isn't just like, I cooked this and it transformed in half an hour. It's like, no, I can't rush this."

Personal Connections and Culinary Traditions

The hosts and Dr. Skinner share personal stories about their favorite recipes and the emotional connections tied to them. For instance, Shannon Larson recounts her love for crispy fried shallots and how they enhance her dishes, while Megan Scott expresses her nostalgia for grits made at a local Portland restaurant.

Shannon Larson (20:44): "I can't stop eating them, like, while I'm finishing my meal."

Megan Scott (14:05): "I love grits so much. You cannot get them where we live."

Future Projects and Closing Thoughts

As the episode nears its end, Dr. Skinner shares her current projects, including preserved lemons and homemade mead, showcasing her continuous exploration in the culinary arts.

Dr. Julia Skinner (41:13): "I've been doing a lot of preserved lemons and using... room temperature water and shake it and then shake it every day. And then eventually I have mead and I drink it."

The hosts invite listeners to engage with their upcoming topics, hinting at future episodes centered around cocktails and inviting audience participation through calls and messages.

Conclusion

This episode of The Joy of Cooking Podcast offers a rich tapestry of culinary wisdom, blending the technical aspects of recipe writing with the artistry of fermentation. Dr. Julia Skinner's insights, combined with the hosts' personal experiences, provide listeners with both inspiration and practical knowledge to enhance their cooking endeavors.

Notable Quotes

• Shannon Larson (02:05): "It's so freaking good."
• Dr. Julia Skinner (06:42): "I'm creating food along with these microbes. We're working together to make something."
• Megan Scott (16:13): "It's such a hard recipe to perfect."
• Jon Becker (46:02): "You should always be giving two indicators for when a particular cooking step is done."
• Dr. Julia Skinner (51:36): "It makes it less of a 'I'm going to mess up' and more of a 'I'm going to experiment and see what I can do.'"

Follow Us

Listeners are encouraged to subscribe, leave reviews on Apple Podcasts and iTunes, and follow the podcast on joyofcooking.substack.com and Instagram @hejoyofcooking. For questions and interactions, reach out via phone at 503-395-8858.

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, personal stories, and expert insights, enriched with direct quotes and timestamps to provide a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened.

Transcript

[Megan Scott]

Sa.

[Shannon Larson]

Hello, and welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for a discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of the Joy of Cooking, kitchen victories and misadventures, and most importantly, what we are cooking and eating right now. We're glad you've joined us at the table today. I'm Shannon Larson, home cook, ardent Joy of Cooking user and fan and roasted fennel enthusiast.

[Megan Scott]

I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night, and my farm in Stardew Valley is thriving.

[Jon Becker]

I'm Jon Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook. I was busy making cheesy scrambles for house guests, and so I cannot think of anything snappy to say about my bio.

[Megan Scott]

That's okay. Apparently the eggs were really good, so I think it's fine.

[Jon Becker]

I got a pat on the back. It was good.

[Megan Scott]

We have house guests, so we're, you know, dealing with cooking for more than just the two of us.

[Shannon Larson]

It's weird, right?

[Megan Scott]

It's kind of weird. It's just. Yeah. Not. Not normal for us.

[Shannon Larson]

It's fun though.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

Less leftovers, but that's okay.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. My sister is not a fan of eggs. She doesn't eat eggs. And that's our primary breakfast.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

So it's kind of like, what do we. What do people eat for breakfast?

[Shannon Larson]

What does she eat for breakfast?

[Megan Scott]

We had bagels.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, okay.

[Megan Scott]

So like bready things and yogurt. Yeah, it's fine.

[Shannon Larson]

I'm also mostly egg based in the morning, so I'm just like, weird.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I know.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. Her fiance definitely a fan of eggs, so I think that he wanted to get something he doesn't usually enjoy.

[Shannon Larson]

Nice.

[Jon Becker]

I obliged.

[Megan Scott]

Shannon, what have you been up to this week? Have you cooked anything delicious?

[Shannon Larson]

I included roasted fennel in my intro because, I mean, I've always liked fennel, but recently I feel like we've just been putting it on sheet pans way more often than we used to in the past. And it's so freaking good. Like, I don't know, I just. It's delicious. And there's something about roasting it that makes it really. I can't even describe it. It's just rich and.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah, I love fennel. It gets this nice texture when it's roasted that I really like.

[Shannon Larson]

So we paired that with, like, some roasted chicken thighs. And then I was also wanting something really light. So I did a citrus and burrata salad with like, crushed pistachios.

[Megan Scott]

It looked so good.

[Shannon Larson]

It was really good. We used grapefruit and blood orange, and it was nice to pair that with like a big roasted. The main meal was roasted. And then you had something fun and light.

[Jon Becker]

I imagine that, you know, you incorporate the roasted fennel into that salad, it would be pretty. Pretty amazing.

[Shannon Larson]

Well, now you tell me. I'll just. I'll have to make another one this week. Yeah, Dragon, I know.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

What about you two?

[Megan Scott]

Well, we. So we were out of town for part of the week, but the one thing I wanted to talk about was this book that I can't stop thinking about that I finished reading this week week called north woods by Daniel Mason. And I kind of went down this rabbit hole because part of the. What the book is about is like, someone who finds this very. This unique variety of apple that is like the best tasting apple they've ever had, and then they propagate it and grow it in an orchard and then sell it. But it's in the book. It's called Osgood's Wonder, which is. Apples just have, like, such great names.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

I love it.

[Megan Scott]

But I wanted to look it up and see if it was based on. Because it's a fictional book, but it's. It's, you know, see if it was based on a real apple. And I kind of went down this apple rabbit hole of. I found one called Osgood's Favorite, which is almost completely gone from the face of the earth. It is. It was found in Massachusetts in the early 1800s. And I found this really cute small town web page from a town called Southborough, Massachusetts. And in 2016, there was a blog post where someone was talking about how the last Osgood favorite tree, they were going to graft it and try to propagate it again and like, give the. Not give like you had to pay for them, but give the little saplings to people in the town to grow this apple that's almost completely gone. I couldn't find an update on whether they had followed through with it or not. But it's a really beautiful apple. And now I'm like, I have to try this apple. So I guess I have to go to Southborough, Massachusetts.

[Shannon Larson]

I mean, I wouldn't mind going out to Massachusetts.

[Megan Scott]

No. Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Leaf season there is something both tragic and also, I don't know, very compelling about varieties of anything really, that, you know, people have just eaten too much of to the point where they're almost gone. It's like silphium or laser pidium. It's this, this spice that was around in Roman times and they basically ate it until it was all gone. It's kind of, it's hard to imagine, kind of related asafoetida. Asafoetida. But yeah, I guess that that's like the not as good relative of.

[Shannon Larson]

Wait, what kind of spice is it like?

[Jon Becker]

Well, I think. I imagine it's kind of like asafoetida. You know, it's just kind of got a savory, oniony, garlicky funkiness to it. But yeah, again, it's hard to say since none of it's left and no.

[Megan Scott]

One alive has tasted it, I guess.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, pretty much crazy, but yeah. What else did we do? We did Szechuan hotpot for Valentine's Day by the fire.

[Shannon Larson]

You guys were just sweating, pretty much. So romantic.

[Jon Becker]

It was, it was toasty.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

So cute.

[Shannon Larson]

I love it.

[Megan Scott]

We were eating it in front of the fire, so we were at the coffee table with hot pot, you have like a platter of different kinds of meat and then a platter vegetables. And the cats were just like, you have chicken in there. I know you have chicken. But we couldn't give them any because it was too spicy.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, sorry, guys.

[Megan Scott]

We would like to welcome Dr. Julia Skinner to the podcast. Dr. Julia Skinner is a food writer whose work includes the award winning book Our Fermented Lives. She also runs Root, a food focused community and consulting organization offering classes, consulting on creative projects, a weekly newsletter, and more. She's also the founder of Roots and Branches, where she coaches other writers to help them find their voice and share their most important work with the world. Julia, welcome to the show.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Megan Scott]

What have you been cooking or making lately that you're most excited about?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Oh, gosh, I have been. So I just finished working on my next book.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, congrats.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Thank you. Which is many hundreds of pages of food preserving recipes. So I have been canning things like crazy. And I have been. I always am always fermenting things. That's kind of my. My core state of being is constantly fermenting food, but I'm also canning more right now. I recently made pastrami smoked pickled beets. Oh, very good. Yeah, probably my favorite thing I've made recently.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that sounds excellent.

[Jon Becker]

You're smoking the beets and then take it that there's a brine with kind of the typical pastrami spices in there.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Yeah. So. And I just smoke the beets long enough to get some of the flavor. So they're not super mushy or anything.

[Jon Becker]

Nice. Sounds wonderful. How many ferments do you have going right now?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Can't see the shelf from here, but probably about a hundred.

[Megan Scott]

Whoa.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Just a few.

[Shannon Larson]

How do you keep track of all of them? Do you have, like, a spreadsheet or something where you track timing and all of that?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Yeah, that would make too much sense. I have labels on all of them with masking tape, and I just kind of ply by the seat of my pants with it and see how it goes.

[Shannon Larson]

Fun.

[Megan Scott]

I kind of love that approach to fermenting because it is a more organic. It's a very organic process. It's not as linear as, like, normal cooking. So you can kind of just keep fermenting things and keep tasting them until they taste like the way you want them to.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Yeah. And it's like, it's nice because it's such an intuitive practice. Like, you know, there's no. It's not like, with canning, where it's like, this has to be done for this amount of time in this certain way to be safe. I mean, fermenting as long as you do it, you know, and follow the best practices. You know, if I make sauerkraut, that's two weeks old versus four weeks old. Both are delicious in their own ways, so it's just what I want.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I love that with kimchi as well. Like, I love the difference. Like, getting a fresh batch of kimchi is so good, but then it's a totally different experience if you wait a few weeks. And both are just. I can't pick a favorite. They're good for different things. So, Julia, you're based in Atlanta, right?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Yeah, I live in Atlanta. And then starting later this year, I'll be living half time also in southwest Ireland.

[Megan Scott]

Okay. Wow, that's so awesome. What made you want to live in Ireland part time?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

It's kind of a convoluted story. I had this dream several years ago that was like, go to this small town in Ireland that you've never been to. And I woke up and I was like, okay. Actually, I went to the small town in Ireland that I had never been to called Skibbereen, and had a grand old time and, you know, was in Cork city after that and met friends and ended up meeting the guy that I ended up marrying last year. So he's. He's Irish, born and raised in Cork. So through a series of events over the course of several years, it came to pass that, yeah, now I'm going to be living there half the year.

[Megan Scott]

That's really exciting. I'm curious, how do you eat in Ireland compared to in Georgia? Do you find yourself eating differently or cooking differently?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

You know, in my kitchen in Ireland is. Is comically small. I mean, my kitchen in Atlanta isn't massive, but I at least have more than like one foot of counter space, so that's something. So there I tend to here I can kind of do more prep and spread out a little more. And there I have to be a little more conscientious of how many bowls and pots and pans and things I have going at once. So I tend to do more one pot kind of things there. Ingredient availability depends on the two places. So, you know, here in Georgia, I can get really good citrus. You can't really get that good of citrus, you know, and there's other ingredients that just. I mean, I don't know, maybe you can find like, you know, peanuts to make bold peanuts or something there, but probably not. They don't really have raw peanuts, but they have really good dairy. So just depends.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, I mean, it's difficult to find raw peanuts pretty much anywhere except the south around where you are.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Yeah, that is true.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. Trying to test recipe. We added a recipe for boiled peanuts and yeah, it was difficult to get a hold of the right stuff.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Interestingly, we're more able to find young peanuts or not completely dried peanuts at like Asian markets here. We were lucky to visit Vietnam last year and fresher peanuts were a thing and like, so you can find them sometimes at Asian stores, but otherwise you just cannot find them here. They're not appreciated as a food stuff really, which is unfortunate because they're delightful.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

That's. Yeah, that's a shame.

[Jon Becker]

There is a boiled peanut pop up here, though.

[Megan Scott]

Is that what.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, I think that they have like some packages for sale like at a market way in southwest Portland, slash Beaverton, Aloha area. But yeah, we should. We should investigate.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, we should. That sounds mysterious. I was curious. So you're not from Georgia, correct, Julia?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Correct.

[Megan Scott]

Are there any Georgia food ways that you've fallen in love with after living there for a few years?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

So, yeah, you know, it's interesting because I was raised out in Colorado. I'm from Boulder originally and slowly made my way. I lived in Iowa for a while and then I got my PhD in Florida, moved to Georgia. But my family on my mom's side is from the south and so I grew up eating Southern food every time I was with them. And so in some ways, getting access to the food, to Southern food more regularly, has been kind of a homecoming of sorts, because my grandma, who I used to make this food with, is no longer around, and neither is my mom. And so I have. I still have access to, you know, like, grits. Like, trying to get a good quality grit out in Colorado. Like, you can do it, but it's not like here, where I can just go down to whatever store and take my pick. Yeah. It's felt more like coming back in contact with things that are familiar and that I've always enjoyed but just didn't really get to fully sink my teeth into, like, on a regular basis.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I love. I love grits so much. You cannot get them where we live. Not really. There was a restaurant for a while that Muscadine. I miss it so much. Made the most amazing grits. And I think she just used a slow cooker to make them because they do require such long. If you get the old school grits, they just require a long time in the cooking. But they were fantastic. Fantastic. They just take on this creaminess that it. You know, you don't have to add a lot of dairy to it for it to taste amazing. But I miss them. I really miss them so much.

[Jon Becker]

I mean, dairy never hurts.

[Megan Scott]

It doesn't hurt, right?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Yeah. Grits are probably one of my favorite foods, you know, and it's funny because the foods that I'm like, oh, I love these things. When I take them over to Ireland, my husband does not like them as much. He's not a huge grits person. He's. He doesn't like porridges in general. And he's like. He's like, grits are just a porridge, and I don't like porridges. And I'm just like, huh? But. But encountered anybody in my life before that just doesn't like porridge. Like, as a class of food.

[Megan Scott]

I know. I thought we all sort of liked some form of gruel or another.

[Jon Becker]

Who doesn't like a good gruel?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

I mean, it's comforting.

[Megan Scott]

All right, so we're going to move into our tasting segment. So this week's theme is recipe writing. And in our tasting segment today, we are trying Showstopper Cookies, which is a local cookie company. And I really love how this business started. So the business owner, Andrea, perfected her chocolate chip cookie recipe over about 10 years. And then during the pandemic, she lost her job and turned her cookie recipe into a business. So she bakes large batches of these amazing Chocolate chip cookies for, like, corporate gifts, or if you have to buy a bunch of gifts, like the holidays for, you know, your kids, teachers, and just all the people in your life, they're really great for that. So we're gonna try those right now. And they look so good.

[Shannon Larson]

They smell really good.

[Megan Scott]

They smell delicious.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, man.

[Megan Scott]

They have the. They've got the flaky salt on top.

[Jon Becker]

That's always a good sign.

[Megan Scott]

And she uses locally sourced flour and. And eggs. And she makes her own vanilla extract, which is just really awesome, and uses guitard chocolate, which is a very good chocolate brand. Ooh, they're really full of chocolate chips, too.

[Shannon Larson]

Those are really good.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, they're just super buttery, and they're chewy. I like that they're not crispy, but they have a nice chew to them.

[Shannon Larson]

I feel like salt on a cookie, especially a chocolate chip, it just makes it such a huge difference.

[Megan Scott]

If you look at the chocolate chip cookie recipe that we did for Joy, we were developing a recipe for, like, a. A chewier chocolate chip cookie in addition to the classic one that's been in the book forever. And it's such a hard recipe to perfect. It makes sense to me that it took her 10 years to perfect the recipe because you change the tiniest, tiniest thing, and it changes the outcome tremendously. That's one of my favorite and most frustrating things about baking and, like, trying.

[Jon Becker]

To account for, you know, the kind of pan somebody's using or that kind of thing.

[Shannon Larson]

Differences in ovens, I think, make a huge difference.

[Megan Scott]

Sometimes ambient temperature. Yeah, sometimes I think that, you know.

[Jon Becker]

It'S kind of a nice segue to recipe writing, difficulties thereof. But I'm sorry, go ahead.

[Megan Scott]

No, I was just thinking about how, like, you know, a lot of chocolate chip cookie recipes, they have you refrigerate the dough for at least 24 hours, if not 48 hours, which does, I think, make for a better cookie because the flour can fully hydrate. And, you know, then it's also, you're not having to deal with the differences in different people's ambient temperatures of their house, because, like, some people's houses are really warm. And so your cookie dough is going to be really warm and then spread a bunch and kind of run into each other and get crispy, whereas other people keep their houses colder. So it kind of takes away that variable as well as, like, letting the flour get fully hydrated. I love thinking about the different tweaks you can make to a simple recipe like that. That can really make a huge difference.

[Shannon Larson]

I'm not much of a baker because of all of the things. I just get really frustrated if it doesn't work out. And I like to not follow recipes to a T. That's just like my style. So if I can find good baked goods.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

Or just tell my husband to do it.

[Megan Scott]

That's. John is a good baker.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, he is, thank God. But he likes to follow recipes. Exactly. And I don't. So it works well in our household in that sense.

[Jon Becker]

So are you literally just. You read a recipe and you're like, I'm not doing that well.

[Shannon Larson]

I'm always like, well, that needs more garlic, like all the time. I don't know. I mean, it just kind of also I feel like I like to just see what I have in my pantry and add different spices and it's just more my style. And when I have to look at like a recipe to bake bread or bake cookies, I know that I can't really.

[Jon Becker]

That means that needs more baking.

[Megan Scott]

Can't really do that. So I do love baking. And I also love not following the recipe exactly with baking, even with baking. I do. I'm trying to think of a good example of kind of going off script a little. But like, I like to use a base recipe and then like, maybe I'll make a cake but add swirls of jam, I don't know, something like that. So I don't necessarily follow the recipe 100% all the time. But you have to be prepared not to be mad at the recipe when you mess it up. Right. Because that does happen. That's a risk.

[Shannon Larson]

That's on you at that point.

[Megan Scott]

Totally. I accept responsibility for my actions.

[Shannon Larson]

But you follow like the basic baking powder, baking soda.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, totally.

[Shannon Larson]

All of that has to be followed.

[Megan Scott]

Unless I'm like, there's no way. Sometimes you read a recipe and once you've been cooking long enough, you're like, that's too much baking soda. You don't need. You really only need like a quarter teaspoon of baking soda per cup of flour most of the time in a recipe. So if I see an egregious amount of baking soda, I will cut it back. Red flags.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Red flags.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's a red flag.

[Jon Becker]

It's like, was this scaled from a restaurant sized recipe or.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that can cause weird things to happen for sure.

[Jon Becker]

Or maybe that there was just like a miscommunication between the tester of the recipe and the people that were putting together the manuscript. There's like so many possibilities.

[Megan Scott]

A lot of things can happen.

[Jon Becker]

So many possibilities.

[Megan Scott]

So let's talk briefly about last week's Joy Scouts recipe. Last week, we asked folks to make fried shallots. Crispy fried shallots. Shannon, did you make them this week?

[Shannon Larson]

I mean, I've made these so many times, you guys. So when that was the Joy Scout recipe, I'm like, oh, darn. I guess I have to make the crispy fried shallots again. Yes, we made them. We made them last night. And then I based our dinner off of a Melissa Clark recipe for. It was crispy pork noodles, but we used. We don't eat pork very often, so we used ground turkey instead. And instead of bok choy, we used cabbage, and we had shiitake mushrooms. And just. It was really, really comfort. It was a very comforting noodle dish. And then covered in the shallots and some, like, freshly torn basil and way too much chili. Crisp for John, not for me. And it was so good. It was really, really comforting. But the problem with the crispy fried shallots is that I can't stop eating them, like, while I'm finishing my meal.

[Megan Scott]

So fail to see the problem.

[Shannon Larson]

I mean, you know, I was like, oh, I shouldn't have had that many crispy fried shallots. I love them.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, John made them last night, and we had them on a, like, a rice bowl thing with soy sauce tofu. It's an Andrea Wen recipe that's so simple. And so it's kind of brilliant because you just cook the tofu in a skillet with a little bit of oil and soy sauce, and that's it. But you cook them until it gets a little caramelized on the side. It's so good. And then we had, like, you know, steamed broccoli or something. It was kind of basic, but we kind of wanted a basic.

[Shannon Larson]

It kind of sounds like we were in the same mood last night. It was just a vehicle for the shallots.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, exactly. John, you developed the recipe, and you tested that. That one a bunch.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, we. We had a recipe for fried shallots in previous editions. I can't remember exactly when they were added off the top of my head, for whatever reason, you know, I ended up changing it so that there was a, you know, a cornstarch dredge. And also, like, I feel like I. Again, I lowered the frying temperature because especially with crispy fried shallots, like, if you let them go for just, like, a little bit too long or if you have it at too high a temperature, they just start to get bitter.

[Megan Scott]

Also, another key thing is to not, you Know, it's tempting to add salt to the shallots directly when they're with the cornstarch, but you gotta wait until they're done and then sprinkle em after they're fried because they will release a bunch of water. And you don't want to add wet shallots to hot oil. That's just a nightmare waiting to happen.

[Jon Becker]

Well, yeah, they'll take longer to get crispy at the very. At the very least. And yeah, instead of getting dredged in a cornstarch, they're starting to sit in a batter.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

And the recipe says flour or cornstarch. I use cornstarch. Do you guys have a preference?

[Megan Scott]

Like, personally, we use cornstarch.

[Shannon Larson]

Okay.

[Jon Becker]

Pretty much use it a lot.

[Megan Scott]

Always.

[Jon Becker]

I feel like the only reason, though, is because the flour is in the garage and the cornstarch is in the cabinet.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jon Becker]

I mean, flour does have a little bit more, I think. I feel like it browns a little bit better and you definitely get maybe a toastier flavor. It might not be quite as crispy.

[Megan Scott]

But, yeah, I think the cornstarch is more crisp. Yeah, flour can get browner.

[Shannon Larson]

Maybe I'll try flour next time.

[Megan Scott]

Just out of curiosity, you should try side by side.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Oh.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, no.

[Megan Scott]

And this week's recipe, which we actually just made this week, which was what made us think of it, is fish boulanger, which sounds fancy, but it's very easy and it's a super riffable recipe. It's just like a firm, flesh white fish on top of cooked potatoes and onions. The recipe calls for pearl onions, but as we discussed last week, they are a pain in the neck to prepare. So we actually used a leek this time. We sauteed the leek first. And then. Did you steam or boil the potatoes, John?

[Jon Becker]

I boiled them. We were definitely riffing on the recipe because, you know, it calls for, like, small red or gold potatoes. And I feel like the CSA we had like, bigger russet potatoes. And so, yeah, we just cut them into chunks, quartering them and. Yeah. And then the other. The other big change we made that. I feel like this is the second or third time that we've done it with this particular recipe. There's two times where you're using a little bit of melted butter to add to the potatoes and the onions or alliums, whichever potato onion you want to use. So with that melted butter, you want to mix in like maybe a teaspoon of white miso.

[Megan Scott]

So white miso makes it just. It takes it kind of over the top and makes it just taste more complex. You can also use a variety of fishes for this recipe. We used cod, but I think rockfish would work really well. Halibut would work well and then haddock is another suggestion that we give in the book. But any just kind of thicker white fish, like I wouldn't want to use a super thin like tilapia or something. Although maybe if John mentioned last night that maybe you could just stack them on top of each other like little, little pie.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, just make sure that miso gets on in every layer. Good to go.

[Megan Scott]

So yeah, we would love for folks to cook along with us. If you do cook this recipe, please tag us hejoyofcooking on Instagram and let us know how you liked it.

[Jon Becker]

Fish boulanger is on page 380 in the 2019 edition.

[Megan Scott]

Thank you.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, you're welcome.

[Shannon Larson]

I love this. It's so nice to just have a meal planned for the week already.

[Megan Scott]

It's great.

[Listener]

If you want to try Andrea's Showstopper cookies, go to showstoppercookies.com and enter joy in all caps for 15% off. That's showstoppercookies.Com Enter joy in all caps for 15 15% off.

[Megan Scott]

Julia, I would love to ask you some questions. First of all, what is your relationship with the Joy of Cooking cookbook? How did you first come to the book? Was it something you grew up with or did you only hear about it as an adult?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

So I didn't really come to it until I was an adult. My mom didn't have a ton of cookbooks and the ones she had, she had a couple Betty Crocker cookbooks and a couple like, you know, low fat cooking kind of. We, she was very into the low fat cooking lifestyle and I had the first copy of Joy I ever got was from a thrift store when I was, I think in my 20s. And then when the 2019 edition came out, one of my friends, Lauren actually surprised me with a copy of it she bought right when it came out. And so I came home from, I don't know, being out and about one day and there was a copy of it sitting on my porch waiting for me, which was great. So I've been cooking from the that edition ever since.

[Megan Scott]

Fantastic. Are there any recipes in it that you've, you keep coming back to or that you've really liked?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Oh man. You know, I, when I was working on my food preserving cookbook, the one that I just finished, one thing I really love about Joy and about your approach to writing is like, you do a really good job of balancing the need for specificity with it also being approachable. For example, because, you know, as part of researching that book, and, you know, I had obviously preserved food before, but I hadn't, you know, done as much with like, ice glazing fish or like, you know, doing air displacement method for freezing or things like that. And so researching that, I found the way that you approach technique to be very useful and understandable. And it helped inform where I was like, oh, I've never done this technique before, but I can, you know, I feel confident I can do it and I won't mess it up too badly.

[Jon Becker]

That's very, very gratifying here. I'm glad you find it so useful.

[Megan Scott]

I'm glad you mentioned that those parts of the book, because I do feel like there's this huge emphasis. I mean, it's part of it is marketing. Right. Like, there's this huge emphasis on the number of recipes in the book, and there are a lot of recipes in Joyo Cooking. But my favorite parts of the book and my favorite parts to work on have been the instructional or the, like, research parts of it or the back of the book where the know your ingredients section is. Those parts were just super fun, and I feel like they're some of the hidden gems in the book that you might not even think to look for.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, I definitely my favorite part of the book to work on. And it was also pretty humbling to be able to improve upon the work that I. Luminaries of, you know, food writing, like Harold McGee and Shirley Coryer, both helped us with the Know youw Ingredients portion of the book, as well as the cooking methods and techniques chapter. And so it was just really exciting to. To kind of engage with the work that they did and to try to improve upon it in, you know, the most responsible way that we could. So, yeah, definitely fun.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Julia, whose work, Speaking of Harold McGee and Shirley Coryer, like, is there anyone that you really look to when you're developing recipes, like, especially for canning and preserving or fermenting? Anyone whose work you follow?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Yeah. So, I mean, I, again, I think Joy was such a. Such a good port of call for that sort of like. Like giving me inspiration for how to construct a discussion of techniques that was more approachable for my audience. Harold McGee also, of course. But because I kind of cut my teeth in, like, in the books that I wrote about food that are the most well known are ferment books. And so I've Done a lot of engagement with folks in the world of fermentation. And so Sander Katz, you know, is one of. One of my big inspirations. And what I love about Sander's work is there's. There's an understanding of where specificity needs to exist versus where you can riff and customize and go off script. That's something I appreciate about a lot of folks who do. Fermentation is. It's like, okay, well, this brine has to be in these certain ratios in order for this fermentation to happen. So say for lacto fermentation, it's between about 2 and 5% salinity. And you want to keep your, you know, for sauerkraut or whatever, you want to keep it under the brine so you don't get mold, like, all, you know, these basic things. But then what you put in the sauerkraut can really be whatever you want. And I appreciate that. A lot of fermentation authors do a good job of riding the line between offering that guidance and still allowing for customizability. Kirsten and Christopher Shockey are two other folks whose work I really respect and who I've been following for years. Yeah, and I've been lucky. You know, when I wrote Our Fermented Lives, I was lucky that Sandor wrote the foreword, but also read through. I mean, obviously, as part of writing the forward, read through the book. And so I was able to get his feedback on the work, which was good, as it was my first fermentation book that was really out there in a really public way. And, you know, it can be very terrifying to, like, even if you know something really well, to be. To be seen and turned to as a voice of expertise in something, no matter how well you know it. So I was glad to have somebody who I look to also look at that book.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, Sandor Katz was also. He's the reason that I started fermenting in college was I saw him at a farmer's market. He was doing a sauerkraut demo.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, that's cool.

[Megan Scott]

And selling copies of Wild Fermentation. And I bought a copy, and I still have the original. You know, my first copy was, like, the hot pink and lime green kind of COVID Also, just reading him on fermentation was so cool because he writes about it. Like you said, there's. Well, there's, like, the technical aspect of it, but he also writes a lot about almost, like, fermentation as a metaphor for, like, culture. And I just found that so moving and fascinating, and that was kind of what piqued my interest initially. Why did fermentation first kind of appeal to you, Julia?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

So, yeah, and I like that you mentioned that, because that's part of, I think, why I resonate so much with his work. And I'm very happy that, you know, he's a friend and a mentor, because we both have all of these ways that fermentation enriches our lives. Yeah. I first came to it in my early 20s. I started making sauerkraut and yogurt and stuff. And initially, it was a really, like, a purely practical. I'm broke. I'm gardening to infill food, because I'm food insecure. And I. Oh, no. I have all these cabbages. I have all of this food. Ah, what am I gonna do? And so a friend taught me to make sauerkraut, and it kind of just ballooned from there. But I found such pleasure in it so early on, and I never would have imagined it would be something that I would be writing about and talking about and teaching. And so in November, I just opened an online culinary school, and I get to teach all these, like, crazy fermentation classes that I'm like, wow, I never would have imagined this was even possible. So the relationship has blossomed from just, I need to preserve my food into this collaborative sort of, you know, I'm creating food along with these microbes. Like, we're working together to make something. And it connects me to place. It connects me to time and the, you know, the local food that's available to me. It connects me to my garden. It's connected me to so many people around the world. I mean, it's such a powerful, beautiful practice.

[Megan Scott]

I do love the aspect of fermentation that is. I mean, there's a wildness to it, literally and figuratively. Like, you don't really know. You can't see the microbes at work, but you know, they're working. You don't know exactly what they consist of, but you sort of have an idea. I don't know. There's just, like, an element of not knowing that. I think, you know, when we're cooking, most of the time we're following recipes. Like, some of us following them more exactly than others. But, like, you follow, like, about how much time this takes, about, you know, how much salt it needs. And with fermentation, the time spans are kind of uncertain. Like, you can give estimates, but depending on the temperature, depending on what's going on, it might take less time or more time. So I love that There's a little bit of more play in the process, too. Do you find that kind of uncertainty to be. I mean, I'm assuming you find it stimulating, but maybe it's also a little stressful.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Oh, I find it very stimulating. You know, and it's funny because I think there's an overlap between me enjoying the uncertainty and the flexibility of fermentation and, like, the way I approach creativity in general. Like, I have this thing I always tell my writing clients where every single thing we do, like, we're not failing or whatever if a piece of writing doesn't turn out exactly how we want, it's just a chance to learn. And that's true with the ferment too. Right. If I make something and I'm like, wow, it turns out putting, I don't know, this much time in here makes this taste like soap. Wow, that was a terrible idea. Like, I didn't fail. I just have learned a thing, Right. And I think fermentation offers us. We're learning every time we ferment, no matter how long we've been doing it. Even when I make sauerkraut and I've made sauerkraut I don't know how many thousands of times at this point in my life, but every time I do, it's such a. Like, such a pleasant. Not surprised, but I'm just, like, delighted that it works every, like, every time.

[Megan Scott]

Right. I feel like I feel the same way. Like, the first time I made sauerkraut, it just started bubbling, and I was like, it's working. I don't know what I expected to happen, but for some reason, it was almost a surprise and. Yeah. Very delightful.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Yeah, yeah. No, and it's like the fact that it's alive and you can see it. I mean, it's. Yeah, it's. It's so fun. It's so good.

[Shannon Larson]

It sounds like sauerkraut is a fermentation project that is good for newbies to fermentation in general. Do you have two or three other ideas of what would be good for people who are maybe feeling a little bit hesitant about getting into it or a little bit scared maybe?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Yeah. I mean, lacto. Fermented vegetables are such. Such an accessible starting place. So, you know, you could do something like, fermented carrot sticks are a very good snack. And you can you just pack your carrots, your raw carrot sticks in a brine that's like, say, a tablespoon of salt to a quart of water that's room temperature water, Pour that over Let it sit for a few days. And then you have fermented carrot sticks. You know, you can do hot sauce in kind of a similar way with whole peppers and maybe some cloves of garlic and, I don't know, some herbs or spices or whatever else you want. I encourage people to start with fermented vegetables because I think it's an easy way to build confidence.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

And then from there, you can move to other more complex ferments. But once you kind of get past that initial hesitation of working with microbes, such a welcoming world, and there's such endless variety. Like, I will spend my entire life fermenting food, and I will only scratch the surface of what's possible.

[Megan Scott]

Something I think about a lot is some people do need to ferment things to preserve them, but a lot of us don't really need to do it. You know, it's something we do because we enjoy it. We enjoy the flavors. Why do you think humans have continued to ferment things even though most of us don't necessarily need it for our basic survival?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

I mean, you know, this was something interesting when I was writing our fermented lives that I thought a lot about, because fermentation is found in every culture. Right. And it's such. Such a part of so many of our culinary traditions. And I think part of that has to do with flavor and with, you know, the variety of possible ferments. I mean, so many beverages. I mean, obviously alcoholic beverages, but, you know, fermented sodas and things as well. Fermented vegetables, misos bread, cheese, like, all these different things. There's so many familiar flavors that we would be a huge part of our diet would go away if we didn't eat ferments. So I think that's part of it, but I think there is that we are naturally sort of drawn to those of us who make ferments. We're naturally drawn to that transformative process. Like, there's something about working with food that transforms, and that isn't just like, I cooked this and it transformed in half an hour. It's like, no, I can't rush this. This is going to take the time it takes. And there's only so much I can control this because it is a collaboration. And I think there's something. I don't know, there's something kind of visceral and really pleasing and exciting about that that maybe we don't get with other forms of cooking.

[Shannon Larson]

Well, I love, like, just in my. In my brain, I just imagine these cute little Microbes hanging out in my kitchen, like making things delicious. And I'm welcome to the party.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Yeah. I often have, like, when I go over, I have this shelf with all of my ferments on. It started out as one shelf and now it's like a floor to ceiling situation.

[Shannon Larson]

I want to see a picture of it. I'm dying to see a picture.

[Megan Scott]

It's like a microbe hotel.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, it is.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

It is. Yeah. I should send you a photo of it.

[Shannon Larson]

Please do.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

But, yeah, every time I go over there, I'm like, oh, my buddy is like, hanging out.

[Megan Scott]

Well, they are. I mean, they're like. It's. They are alive.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

If you've never fermented before, doing it for the first time is a little bit freaky almost because you don't really know what to expect. We do not currently have a website, but when we did, we had a sauerkraut recipe on there. When we will. We will have a sauerkraut recipe forthcoming. But that one page had more comments on it than any other page. And most of them were, you're doing it wrong. Yeah, it was either you're doing it. This is wrong, or it smells funny. Is this. Is it safe? Or it looks weird, or like, how do I know when it's done? And I think the hard thing, but the thing that if you can get it in your head, it. It, you know, kind of it's a light bulb moment, is that it is a flexible process. The results can differ. Also, what you're looking for is just that it tastes good to you. It's not like there's some, you know, uber goal. It's really just, does this taste good? Do I like it? Okay, it's done. It's ready. Yeah. Which can be hard to wrap your mind around, though.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. It's not a question that can be answered by looking at the accompanying photo of sauerkraut. Oh, it looks right now.

[Shannon Larson]

Right?

[Megan Scott]

And yeah, it smells. It smells funky.

[Shannon Larson]

That's why it's good.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

It does. And yeah, in my house, like, my house always smells like sauerkraut. And so much to the pleasure of anybody who comes over, it's just like.

[Megan Scott]

Julia, what projects are you currently working on right now?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

I. Since it's citrus season, I've been doing a lot of preserved lemons and using, you know, the preserved lemon technique with other citrus like tangerines and things. That's been one big focus. I made a bunch of mead recently. I. I know there are people who get much more exacting in Their mead making process. I literally just take my jar of honey after I've eaten most of the honey out of it and add room temperature water and shake it and then shake it every day. And then eventually I have mead and I drink it.

[Megan Scott]

I love that.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

I've been doing that. Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Very.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Not recipe. Recipe, yeah. Way of living.

[Jon Becker]

You know, I've only scratched the surface as far as like the literature on this, but do you know what processes are going on with preserved citrus like that, you know, with salt, preserved lemons? Because it definitely seems like it's just so dang salty that, you know, lactobacillus lactic acid bacteria would have a hard time surviving.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Yeah, I mean, I think and I haven't really dove deeply, deeply into this, but my understanding is it's less about it being a fermentative process and more about the salt pulling out a lot of the water from the citrus and preserving it simply by the citrus being both having less water in it and being. But then being under the salty brine.

[Jon Becker]

So acidity and salinity.

[Megan Scott]

Where can listeners follow you?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

I am all over the Internet. I have the social medias. So there's ootkitchens Culinary Curiosity School, which is the new culinary school that I mentioned at your Roots and branches is if you are a writer and you want writing coaching, that is where I do that. And then ookisjulia is me and that's just whatever I feel like posting. And then I have websites associated with all of those culinarycuriosityschool.com root-kitchens.com and rootsandbranches site.

[Megan Scott]

That's so many things. I'm so impressed. Thank you.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

I like to stay busy. And then I also have books too, so.

[Megan Scott]

So each week we choose a topic to tackle based on color suggestions. And this week we're talking about recipe writing and sort of by extension, recipe attrib.

[Listener]

I'm a farmer with a farmer's market stand selling my vegetables. People ask me how to cook my veggies. I know what I do, but I don't know how to write a recipe. Any good tips or a format or can I just make copies of recipes from Joy? Is that breaking the law? So many questions. Send help.

[Shannon Larson]

I love that question.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's really good.

[Jon Becker]

Well, you can't copyright a recipe.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's true. You can't copyright a recipe. If you're asking for permission to use Joy of Cooking recipes, we're cool with it. I mean, we like farmers and we love local produce and so you know, definitely you can use our recipes. We love being. We love attribution. Just let people know where they come from. And, you know, if you're doing this on a website or like a newsletter, an email newsletter, including links to authors, books, or their work is a really good thing to do so that folks can support them if they want. And then this is more of, like, my opinion is to. I always like it when, if someone's sharing a recipe, they give a little context behind why they're sharing it. Like, why do they like that recipe? Was it. Did it just sound good? Do you make it all the time? And then if you have, like, your own personal tweaks or preferences to the recipe, definitely share those, because it just makes it more personal and really expresses, like, why you're. Why you're wanting to share that recipe.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. I took this as, like, a creative writing prompt, and now that I'm looking, it's not creative. I mean, a writing prompt, let's just put it that way. And I really don't know how to summarize it all, but. But, yeah, you know, some people more than others get sore about this. And I feel like if recipes have like a kind of a one weird trick, quote unquote kind of aspect to them, then it's more likely that people will get upset unless you cite their work, especially if you're not monetizing it. I feel like the stakes are pretty low.

[Megan Scott]

You had some tips on actually learning how to write recipes, right?

[Jon Becker]

Right. I'm looking at that now. And it's. I begin with. It's hard to give advice on this.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's a hard process, I think reading recipes and really paying attention to the way things are worded and then finding, like, if you like a certain recipe developer's style, what are they doing that you really like? And then from there, it's. In a way, recipe writing is kind of technical writing, but also it's technical writing, but you can personalize it.

[Jon Becker]

You know, I kind of broke it down into, like, what is your starting point? Are you trying to capture something that you've done in the kitchen, A favorite dish that you've made, you know, more than a few times that you would really like to share? Or are you kind of setting out to write a recipe for something that you know about, that you, you know, a known dish, quote unquote, that you're not maybe less familiar with the making of it, do not have strong feelings about how it should be done if it's the first case where you're just trying to capture, you know, something that you have done in the kitchen, like over and over again and maybe, you know, done variations on and riffed on. I mean, obviously the first step is to take good notes and try to think of all the elements that make the dish come off without a hitch. Obviously. Well, maybe this isn't so obvious, but it feels like I've heard this over and over again and, you know, seen it in practice over and over again. But, you know, you should always be giving two indicators for when a particular cooking step is done. So example, saute until cold and brown, about 10 minutes. So there you have visual cue as well as, you know, a time estimate.

[Shannon Larson]

That's so helpful.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Pulling in, like, those sensory, like, what should I be expecting at this phase is so helpful because it is. I mean, no matter how many times you test a recipe or how much you revise it, ultimately when you release that recipe into the world, it's going to be encountering circumstances that you can't predict. And so, you know, people's stoves are different, their ovens are different, their households are different.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. I was thinking earlier when, you know, you guys were talking about how unpredictable ferments are and how that's. It's kind of. You kind of have to bake that into fermenting recipes and. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I feel like, you know, that that kind of uncertainty is kind of baked into all recipes and, you know, the, the ones that are not, you know, about a magical fermentation process, you know, it's less obvious, but, yeah, you know, there's so many different variables and contingencies, like differences between kitchens, you know, obviously ambient temperature, like you were talking about for the chocolate chip cookies. But, yeah, trying to actually, I hesitate to use the word empathy, but, you know, trying to empathetically think about how people are going to be encountering your recipe and then trying to think of ways that they could mess up or even just taking notes on when you have messed up and then trying to, I don't know, write the recipe. Not necessarily, like, trying to head off every single, you know, mistake that somebody makes, but just having that, having that in mind and giving a level of detail in the recipe that is. That is not so exacting that it's going to piss people off and keep them from actually cooking what you're writing about, but also, you know, just enough to get people, like, going in the right direction.

[Megan Scott]

And then also, once you've written the recipe, giving it to someone else and having them make it and encounter things that you didn't think of. I. I have. I had a teacher in high school who sometimes he would tell these stories. I was never sure if they were true or not. But he. He said that one time he had a. He was teaching a writing class to, like, this is high schoolers. And he asked everyone to write, you know, how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. And then he bought a loaf of bread and some peanut butter and jelly and sat at the front of the classroom reading people's stories about how to make peanut butter and jelly and made the sandwiches according to how they described it and how each one was a little different and some of them were not peanut butter and jelly sandwiches at all. And I just. I still think about that because when you write a recipe, that recipe is going to ultimately be in someone else's hands, and they are going to read it in a way that is unique to them, which is part of the challenge of the thing, but also what makes it kind of fun, I think.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, for sure.

[Megan Scott]

Julia, Julia, you should chime in. I feel like you probably have a lot to say about recipe writing.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Yeah, no, this is interesting because, like, I mean, you guys can't see me, but I'm sitting here, like, nodding my head as you're talking through all of this. But yeah, it's interesting because I actually have been thinking a lot in the last year about where my recipe writing fits into the larger sort of constellation of recipe writing. Because, of course, the way that we have formatted recipes has changed over time. And when left to my own devices, I tend to write in more of the pre Industrial Revolution style way. That's like a paragraph of me being like, yeah, just like, throw some things together and you know, then when it's done, it's done.

[Megan Scott]

Okay.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

And that works for me because if I'm making, say, sauerkraut and I've made it a thousand times, I know when it tastes like sauerkraut to me and it tastes good, it's done. But having to articulate that to a reader who's never made it before, you really have to build in a lot of encouragement that it's okay to trust your intuition. So I think one of the challenges I encounter with recipe writing is, again, providing that specificity because there are things that you do need to be specific about, but then encouraging people to also sort of pivot away from the recipe when they feel called to, if it's, you know, something that's not going to mess up. The safety or whatever of the recipe.

[Megan Scott]

And that. That aspect of it, too, I love, because that, to me, is what made me fall in love with cooking, was getting to start to play. And then it stops being just this dry process to get dinner on the table. It's like a creative exercise.

[Shannon Larson]

It stops feeling like homework, in a sense. Yeah.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

You know, that reconnecting to that sense of play into it, like, it reduces some of the stakes too. Like, it makes it less of a. Like, I'm going to mess up and get it wrong and more of a. I'm gonna experiment and see what I can do to make this recipe something that kind of has my own fingerprints on it, too. And so it's a collaboration with the author rather than just being like, this person wrote this thing, and if I don't do it perfectly, it's like, I messed up at homework and I'm terrible.

[Jon Becker]

I do like thinking of it as a collaborative effort because it. I don't know, it kind of at least captures that there's a dynamic going on not only between, you know, the text and the author and then the text and the reader, but also there's complications on both sides of that equation where just the whole process of. Maybe this is true of, like, all instructional writing, but with cooking in particular, just because there's, like, the subjectivity of taste involved. Just the whole thing just seems. I don't know. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it, like. Like, from a theory perspective, but it is really interesting to me how to. Yeah. How do you. How do you replicate this process or this dish, you know, through all of these different steps of interpretation and reproduction? Fascinating to me.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

I feel like I'd be remiss, not to mention that we talked about this a little bit on the history episode. But, you know, in the 1930s, Irma Rombauer invented a new style of recipe writing, which before, you know, there had. There was that early style of recipe writing, which is kind of just a paragraph, and it's like, make pie crust. And then, you know, it doesn't. It's very light on detail. And then there was kind of the Fanny Farmer school, which was very, very exact. But you ultimately have your ingredients at the top, and then you have your steps. And then Irma took that and interspersed them. So the ingredients are embedded in the recipe, and it reads more like a narrative. And I love. When I first came to Joy of Cooking as an adult, I had never seen recipes written like that before, and it took a minute to kind of Wrap my head around it. It's different, but I love that the ingredients are in context of how they're used. When you're reading a recipe through for the first time before you make it, if all the ingredients are at the top, you're going back and forth constantly, and it's a little bit choppy. It's hard to kind of wrap your brain around the recipe. But the way the action. This is called the action method. The way Joy's recipes are written, you can kind of read it almost like a little story.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. You never lose your place. You're never like, oh, I have to go back down the step. Oh, I have to go back to the in. You know, I mean, it kind of the standard way of writing recipes implies, you know, or just assumes that you have prepared all of your ingredients, you know, before you even start cooking. And, you know, obviously that's. That's ideal. There are plenty of times where I found myself, like, doing prep while I cook because it just makes the most sense to do that because, you know, otherwise you're twiddling your thumbs like, okay, I guess I'll, Yeah, I don't know.

[Megan Scott]

Stand with these onions for 10 minutes while they saute.

[Jon Becker]

I mean, I love staring at onions, as we all know.

[Megan Scott]

But yeah, I also do love this recipe writing method because it avoids certain issues for the recipe developer as well. It's really hard to forget to include an ingredient because it's going right there in line. It's not in a separate place and divided. You know how some recipes will have like, six tablespoons of butter divided, and then, you know, sometimes they'll forget to call for the rest of it or the amounts won't be right. And I feel like with the action method, it's just harder to. To mess that up because you're not having to describe, oh, well, you're dividing this amount and you're only adding 2 tablespoons here and 4 tablespoons here. So I think it's a little easier once you get used to that style. It's easier for the reader and easier for the writer as well. Julia, what do you think about action method versus, like, the ingredients at the top kind of standard recipe format?

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

The way my publisher wants me to write them is the standard.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

Recipe with the ingredients at the top. I think both have their place. I mean, I usually write in that sort of standard way just because it's how I've been trained to write. But I like the action method because, yeah, like you said, it's more when we think about that collaboration and that, like, narrative, like, it's like I'm reading a book that I get to, like, cook along with, as opposed to. I have been given a homework assignment with steps. And that's something. When I'm, when I'm developing recipes. It's one thing that's kind of interesting to go back and forth with my editor on is I'll. I'll have some more narrative and stuff in the text, in the steps. And she, she sometimes encourages me to pare that down a little bit because I'm just like, yeah, you can, like, do this and, you know, like, try this and whatever. And she's like, no, we just need you to say, and this is when you add the onions. Like, you don't just, like too much waxing poetic. And so, yeah, it's interesting. I liked what you said, though, about it also including contextualizing features, like the multiple ways of testing doneness. That's true across all formats, but I think that's sort of like anything you can do to contextualize for the reader and make them feel like they can envision themselves going from start to finish with this dish, rather than it being like this choppy sort of disjointed experience, I think is, you know, is a service to the reader.

[Megan Scott]

I like the point you brought up, which is that, you know, editors and publishers have certain expectations of what a recipe looks like. And I think that's really true on. On the Internet.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. Websites are.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, you almost. You like, as we've been working with a developer and a designer on a website for a while, and one of the. The biggest things we wanted to ensure was that we could have the recipes be an action method, because that's how Joy of Cooking recipes are. But you have to build a custom recipe module to do that. You can't just. Most recipe plugins are the ingredients at the top and the steps at the bottom.

[Jon Becker]

The entire Internet is against us.

[Megan Scott]

I know.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

I mean, it sounds like you'll be making a very useful plugin for perhaps more than just yourselves.

[Megan Scott]

Then if you have a topic, ingredient or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. We'd love to hear from you. Next week's topic comes from our caller.

[Listener]

My aunt had a New Year's party and made Irma's gin and juice. She said the recipe is in the book, but mine is all packed up. Can you tell me how to make.

[Megan Scott]

It Looking forward to answering that one and maybe getting to have a cocktail as our tasting segment.

[Shannon Larson]

On a Sunday morning.

[Megan Scott]

On a Sunday morning. All right, so what is everybody thinking about for this week? What are you going to be cooking or eating or enjoying this week?

[Shannon Larson]

I'll be making our Joy Scout recipe.

[Megan Scott]

Very nice.

[Shannon Larson]

One dinner, obviously. That's great. I work at an office sometimes, and we sign up to bring in Thursday treats. And I think I'm going to make the Joy's banana bread.

[Megan Scott]

Ooh, yes.

[Shannon Larson]

And bring in some other stuff, too. But we had it when you were camping recently, and it was so good. The dried apricots recipe.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah, the apricots.

[Shannon Larson]

It.

[Megan Scott]

It makes it.

[Shannon Larson]

It's so good. And I think we're also just going to do a baked potato night. That's kind of our. Phone it in. Phone it in. Dinner sometimes. We've got a concert. I think on Thursday nights. We'll probably do baked potatoes before that and different toppings. I love that kind of.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I love a baked potato bar situation. It's the best.

[Dr. Julia Skinner]

What about you two?

[Megan Scott]

Well, my sister is visiting, so it's really just an excuse to go to all of our favorite places in Portland. So we're probably gonna go to our favorite pizza, a place lovely's 50 50. The chef, Sarah Minick, she uses. It's very, like, I try to describe it as Pacific Northwest pizza because it's the. All the vegetables that she uses are from the farmer's market, and they're very seasonal. And so, like, even in the winter in the. The pizzas that have tomato on them, it's like a fermented tomato sauce that she makes in the summer. It's so good. And then she uses, like, really nice, fancy cheeses that you don't normally get on pizzas. And the crust, the dough is like a sourdough. So it just.

[Shannon Larson]

The dough is really good.

[Megan Scott]

So good. And all the salads are. Anyway, that's. That's happening this week for sure.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. Basically, we're just gonna pretend like we're tourists in our own town.

[Shannon Larson]

I love that.

[Megan Scott]

It's so fun. Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast before we go. Show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts and itunes. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram hejoyofcooking. Stay tuned for next week where we will tackle cocktails. And don't forget to make this week's recipe, Cod boulanger. Call in with questions, hopes, history or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

[Shannon Larson]

And we could not do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation production house. Thank you to Dave Dresky, our production coordinator, Haley Bowers, our audio engineer. And this week it was Dirk Marshall, our producer.