C (2:19)

In combination with everything else, it was quite a lot. But three pounds of clams, I mean, I could go through that.

B (2:25)

And the pasta you made was really, really good.

A (2:27)

Super good.

C (2:28)

Oh, well, thank you.

A (2:29)

Yeah, yeah.

C (2:30)

Just your typical vongo type situation, but with bucatini and.

B (2:35)

Yeah, I feel like bucatini is the pasta of the year. That's what we just all need to be. We all need to be eating more bucatini. That's really fun.

A (2:42)

There was a bucatini shortage a few years. I feel like this was during the pandemic.

C (2:46)

Maybe it was a pandemic thing.

A (2:48)

It got really popular and everyone was buying it and it sold out everywhere. But now it's. It's much more available. So, yes, buy the bucatini.

C (2:55)

And then a bunch of bucatini haters came out of the woodwork.

A (2:58)

Wait, what? Where was I through this? This is such Niche, like food world. Stuff that nobody cares about.

C (3:04)

It's like Twitter discourse back. Back when there was a Twitter discourse about food.

B (3:09)

Oh, I miss those times that talking about Bucatini.

A (3:12)

Yeah, I know. But John also made a fancy on. Its easy, but it feels fancy. All right, a mignonette granita for the.

C (3:23)

Oysters and you guys let it melt up.

A (3:26)

It was hot. I mean, what are you going to do?

C (3:28)

I don't know. You're going to eat the oysters.

A (3:30)

That's what granita does, is it melts.

B (3:33)

It was delicious, though. I ate a lot of it.

C (3:35)

It was my fault. The timing was off.

B (3:37)

Yeah, it was all John's fault.

A (3:38)

It's your fault for cooking us lunch. We also made our recipe of the week, uh, last night. It was the shaved fennel and white bean salad on page 129. And it's, it holds up. It's just as good as I remember it. And then I had the rest of it for lunch today on a big piece of toast with canned tuna on it.

C (4:00)

The very last of the tuna.

A (4:02)

That was very last of last year's tuna.

B (4:04)

That's funny. I made it and mixed in some tuna from last year from our cannings from last year and added some celery and tomatoes from the garden. And that was really good. It was almost like a nice suazed thing.

A (4:15)

It's great.

C (4:15)

Well, the celery would definitely add a nice crunch.

B (4:17)

Yeah, and I love celery.

C (4:19)

I mean, what sounds like, are you.

A (4:22)

Team mandolin or do you slice?

B (4:24)

I slice by hand and it's easier now that John Becker sharpened our knives. They're very sharp. Thank you.

C (4:30)

Glad you appreciate the job. I did.

A (4:33)

You did a great job.

B (4:35)

But yeah, mandolins kind of freak me.

A (4:37)

Out, to be honest.

B (4:38)

I've cut myself a few times and I don't like it and I need to just be brave and use it more often. But I get freaked out.

A (4:46)

Yeah, I mean, that's fair. That's very fair. They are sharp. I have cut, I have cut my fingertips off those before. I still use it. But when I first started working at this restaurant, this fine dining restaurant, I was working the salad station garde manger, which was very fun. I really liked it, but I had to use a mandolin and I started using it with the little guard that you hold the food with so you don't cut yourself. And somebody walked by and they were like, they looked at me just like, how could you use that? Like, you're such a wimp.

B (5:14)

What a jerk.

A (5:16)

So then I was peer pressured and stopped using it and mostly was fine, except for one day when I cut my finger wide open right before service.

B (5:24)

Oh, my God.

A (5:25)

So I had to deal with that all night. Not my. On the salad station where you're. Everything is vinegary and lemony. And salt.

B (5:31)

And salt.

A (5:32)

Lots of salt. Yeah, it was great. Wow.

B (5:34)

Don't, don't. Don't do that peer pressure anymore. I think that's the motto.

A (5:40)

This week, we would like to welcome Adam Roberts to the table. Adam Roberts is the author of the Amateur Gourmet Secrets of the Best Chefs Give My Swiss Chards to Broadway, and most recently, his first novel, Food Person. He started his food blog, the Amateur Gourmet, in 2004 and also hosts the podcast Lunch Therapy. Roberts has also written for the Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times and for film and television. Adam, welcome to the show.

D (6:06)

Thank you so much. It's nice to be here.

A (6:08)

Yeah, it's great to have you. What did you cook this week that you're excited about?

D (6:12)

Okay, you're going to fall off your chairs laughing when I tell you what I cooked this week. I made bucatini. I made it with tuna.

A (6:21)

No way.

D (6:23)

I'm not kidding. That's the. I mean, it's so funny. You were talking. I was like, I got to say something. I came back from a trip, and all I had in my cabinet was bucatini, and I had canned tuna. I had fresh tomatoes. I made, like, a garlicky tomato sauce, and then I added the tuna, and then I cooked the bucatini and stirred it all in with some capers, and it was really good.

C (6:41)

Oh, that sounds delicious.

B (6:43)

Hilarious.

A (6:43)

All the cool people are cooking bucatini.

D (6:46)

I know. I guess I remember when. When you couldn't find it during the pandemic. I forget who, like, launched it as, like, a cool thing, but then it was impossible to find.

A (6:55)

What is your least favorite pasta shape?

D (6:58)

That's a hard question, because I love pasta. I guess the most common answer to that question would be angel hair. But now I feel like there's, like, a angel hair resurgence, and people are questioning people's aversion to angel hair. I just. I associate it with, like, the 80s or the 90s. Like, I remember having a lot of angel hair, and I've never cooked it. In my 20 years of cooking, I've never cooked angel hair pasta.

B (7:22)

I feel like Eric Kim just came out with, like, an angel hair pasta in the New York Times and was like, it's not that bad.

A (7:29)

If anyone can rehab it, it's Eric Kim.

D (7:31)

I mean, that's probably right.

B (7:34)

That's like all my mom cooked in the 90s. I feel like I had so much. I lived on angel hair.

A (7:39)

Same.

C (7:40)

I remember thinking it was quite elegant in the 90s.

B (7:44)

You're ahead of your time.

A (7:45)

I'm gonna have to go with I don't love pen A most of the time. Really? Yeah. I don't know why. It's also. It's got the hole in the middle, like bucatini. It's just way bigger. I don't something about it. It's not the same.

C (7:57)

I hard disagree, and that's fine. I don't know. I feel like we make it fairly.

A (8:03)

Often when I will.

C (8:06)

Oh, I will consult later. I will consult my calendar.

A (8:11)

Yeah.

C (8:12)

Dear Diary.

A (8:15)

So, Adam, you started your food blog, the Amateur Gourmet, in 2004, which, it feels like very early days for food blogs. So you're like one of the OGs. How has food blogging. Well, how has the Internet changed, and how has that affected how food blogging is now?

D (8:33)

Well, I feel like I'm like the horse and buggy of food media. Like, you know, I have been outdated. I'm trying, like, scrambling to catch up. You know, I was. I literally just posted a TikTok video. You know, I feel like grandpa, like, in my rocking chair with my TikTok, you know. Food blogging. When I started Food my food blog, I actually didn't even know what a blog was. I just had gotten interested in cooking and predating blogs. There were, like, these forums on the Internet. There Eagle it, and there's Chowhound and things like that. And that's what I participated in. And I would write on Eagle it. And I once wrote this review of a restaurant called Charlie Trotter's, which maybe you've heard of. And I wrote a bad review of it because I was like, I was in my 20s and I was being bratty, and I just wrote this, like, review. And all these people on Eagle it came after me, and they were like, who do you think you are? You're just some dumb kid.

A (9:23)

Whoa.

D (9:24)

And Anthony Bourdain, who at the time was not famous and just a member of Eagle it was came to my defense. No, he'd written Kitchen Confidential, so he was famous, but he was like, we need to listen to these younger voices. You know, he's like, somebody needs to throw a cat into the temple. So anyway, that all happened in the early 2000s, and that was what gave me the encouragement to start my own blog. And I started the blog. I called it the Amateur Gourmet. And the whole thing was like, I did not know how to cook. I'd never cooked before. My, my mom and my dad, nobody cooked in my house. And so it was all a novelty. And I just started documenting everything I was learning. So I guess if I was doing it today, I would just have done the same thing on TikTok and just showing my disasters, et cetera. But, you know, I don't bemoan the shift. I mean, I remember Chris Kimball from Cook's Illustrated wrote an essay in the New York Times. I think it was the Times, you know, denigrating food blogs at the time, being like, you know, this is the death of culture and this is. And now it's like my generation is like, what's with TikTok? But I just think it's always going to shift and change and we're all going to be fine.

C (10:29)

That is hilarious.

A (10:31)

That's a very healthy perspective. Yeah, I like that perspective. So who are your favorite food bloggers?

D (10:38)

Oh, well, I came of age, you know, my, my early days were with David Leibovitz, Smitten Kitchen. There was Clotilde in Paris, had chocolate and zucchini. Yeah, there was him, shape him, you know, orangette. That was one of the best ones. And I became friends with Molly and I would come to the Pacific Northwest and we went horseback riding once.

A (10:59)

Cool.

D (11:01)

So that was like really fun and cool. And they remain. I mean, I still have Smitten Kitchen bookmarked. I still have David Leibovitz. I think he's mostly substack now. I can't tell if he's a blogger or a substacker and what is what. But yeah, I still read everybody.

A (11:14)

I love David Leibovitz. He is so funny and he's such a sweet pea. He's super nice in person. It's always nerve wracking to meet somebody like that because you never know how they're going to be. But he's lovely. I have a funny story about his blog though, because so I was following him pretty early on, I think. I don't know when he started his blog, but I was going to be studying abroad in France and I wanted his recommendations for where to go in Paris, which of course, like, everybody wanted. I'm sure I just had no idea. And I was really young and, like idealistic. I was like, maybe if I comment, he'll answer me. So I commented and asked, you know, what are your. Some of your favorite places to eat? In Paris. And I typed. I think I put it in French. Oh, yeah, I typed it in French. And then other commenters attacked me for typing it in French. Like, oh, look at her. She's so fancy. She's speaking French. And I got. I felt so embarrassed. Like, I'm still. I still have embarrassment from that moment because I. I just. I was just like, I just want a few restaurant recommendations.

D (12:12)

Did he reply to you?

A (12:14)

He did. I don't remember what he said. I mean, he was nice. I think he had some separate posts that were specifically about the, you know, where to eat in Paris. So maybe he directed me there.

C (12:23)

But please refer.

A (12:24)

Yeah, yeah, please refer to my. My volume of work. But that was funny. Also, you just came out with a novel. Food person. Could you tell us a little bit about Food Person?

D (12:36)

Sure. Well, I've always been trying to write a novel. I went to graduate school for playwriting 20 years ago around the same time that my food blog started. And so congruent to my food career. As I was writing about food, I was always in the background, like, working on attempts at novels, attempts at short stories. I ended up writing for tv, and I had some screenplays and stuff, but I always wanted to write a novel, and I never quite hit on the right idea. And somewhere along the way in my food career, I had the opportunity to ghostwrite a cookbook for a celebrity. And I can't tell you the name of the celebrity because I signed an NDA, but the experience was great. The celebrity was really nice. I basically, at some point was like, wait a second. Like, this is a great idea for a novel. Like, what if it's, like, a really shy, introverted, passionate food writer who gets paired with, like, a shallow, you know, messy celebrity who is outgoing but, like, doesn't care about food and doesn't like to cook? And so just, like, it just sort of kind of clicked. And I watched the Devil Wears Prada again, and I was like, okay, this is a good model. And then I just started to outline it, and it was really cool for me because, you know, I lived in California for 12 years, and I was around a lot of actors and a lot of narcissists. And I was grappling with, like, how much, how selfish do you need to be to have a career? Like, you know, and how selfless can you be and still be, like, a notable person in the culture? And so that's actually what the book is about in a weird way. It's, you know, it's about this shy food writer, but she wants to be a voice. Like, she wants to be a Ruth Reichl. She wants to be, you know, a David Leibovitz or whatever, but she's too timid to do so. And then on the other hand, you have this woman who's just obsessed with herself and her image and how she comes across and doesn't seem to care about other people. So that was sort of what I was trying to write about. And using food as the engine for the story.

B (14:28)

That sounds fun. I just watched the Devil Wears Prada again, like, two nights ago, so. Yeah, that sounds really good.

D (14:34)

It's so good. And there's a sequel in the works, I heard.

B (14:37)

Yeah, this one's great.

A (14:39)

I loved how prominently cookbooks are featured in the novel, but also how one of kind of the safe place for this food writer is a cookbook store. Was it in any way modeled on Bonnie Slotnick's?

D (14:54)

Not quite, although I love Bonnie Slotnick's. Are you all based out of Portland?

A (14:59)

Yeah.

D (14:59)

I was just there because I went to Vivienne Book, so I did an event there.

A (15:03)

We were sad to miss that.

D (15:05)

Oh, yeah, it was great. So I lived in LA for 12 years, and then my husband and I moved back to New York two years ago. But in the period when I was writing the novel, I had gone to this cookbook store in Greenpoint called Archa Stratus, and I kind of fell in love with it, and I didn't talk to anybody there, but when I wrote the novel I was writing, I was in la and I was writing this, like, fantasy version of that bookstore and the owner and I was sort of, like, making it all up, but I was just sort of what I imagined it to be like. And what was really cool is when the novel came out, one of my launch events was at that store with the owner.

A (15:38)

Nice.

D (15:38)

Like, I got to meet, like, meet the real life person. But yes, Bonnie Slavnicks was definitely a huge inspir. And in my 20s, I would go to Bonnie Slot next in the West Village and spend hours there. So for sure, that's a big part of it.

A (15:51)

Can you describe her shop for listeners who may not know?

D (15:55)

Oh, my God. I mean, it's like any and every cookbook that's ever been written is, like, packed into the walls. It's like as much about history as it's about food. But, I mean, you'll find, like, anything you can imagine or things you can't imagine. Like, I collect vintage cookbooks and I have them over here, but no one can See, but, like, from her and from all these places, I got, like, the Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous Cookbook by Robin Leach, which is such a funny book. I have, like, the Veal Cookbook by Craig Claiborne. I have UTA Hagen's love for cooking. She's a famous acting teacher. You know, just like, so many obscure, weird cookbooks, and I just cannot get enough. And I love it. And Bonnie knows so much. She knows everybody. And when famous chefs come into town, they'll go to her store to see her, but also just for research, and she'll host everyone from, like, Rene Red Zeppe to, like, Ferran Adria to some idiot like me.

C (16:49)

Having the amateur gourmet as kind of being situated as an amateur for that blog, have you tried to kind of maintain or keep in touch with that kind of sense of wonder and also, you know, bewilderment that, you know, maybe, like, trying to connect with those readers still? Or is it more of a situation where, you know, you have a readership that has kind of come along on your journey and you're kind of speaking to them at a more intermediate to advanced, like, level of knowledge?

D (17:18)

That's a great question. I mean, I think for me, being an amateur, what's the French definition of an amateur? I feel like it's, like, enthusiast. And I think that's how I think of myself. I mean, I really do feel like I'm an enthusiast, and I get excited about new things. And there's so much I don't know. I mean, there's plenty I don't know. In fact, like, someone was talking to me the other day about cooking a tri tip or, like, steak tips, and I was like. I was like, I've never done that. I don't even know what that is. But it's like, I should probably know what steak tips are. I've just never done that, or I've never cooked a flank steak. You know, it's like, as much as I've cooked constantly for 20 years, almost every night, there's tons of things I haven't cooked. You were just talking about canning tuna. I was like, whoa, that sounds really cool. That would be interesting to learn. So, yeah, I'm constantly trying to learn new things. And then in terms of the expertise that I have, it's really not that impressive. It's like, I can make a pretty good pasta. I could bake a pretty good. But I still screw up all the time. Not on purpose, like, not for the brand, but just, like, because I genuinely screw up.

C (18:17)

Same.

A (18:20)

Yeah, we were just. Last week, we were talking about, like, we attempted to make a Caesar salad dressing, and, like, couldn't be easier. And then it broke in the blender, and we were just like, what is happening? We've been doing this for way too long.

D (18:32)

Oh, my God.

C (18:34)

I feel like there was some other mundane task that we were failing at.

A (18:37)

Yeah, it was just not. It was just one of those nights when things aren't going well and there's nothing you can do about it, you know? Yeah.

B (18:43)

But it's good to hear that, you know, the authors, the Joy of Cooking, sometimes mess up their Caesar dressing. Like, those things happen to everybody, you.

C (18:51)

Know, I'm sure there's a certain segment of our listeners that are like, maybe I should just turn this off.

D (18:57)

I mean, I'm going to leave the podcast now, but thank you.

A (19:03)

What is your relationship with the Joy of Cooking?

D (19:06)

Well, when I started out, you know, I didn't. I genuinely, as I mentioned, like, I didn't know anything. So I had the Joy of Cooking, and it was on my shelf, and it was almost like a safety blanket. Just, like, know that it was there. And I was trying to remember before I came on this podcast, like, what did I actually cook from it? So I went into the archives of my blog, and, like, the very first time I made French toast was from the Joy of Cooking. And it was, like, as simple as that is. Just the, like, basic, you know, mix eggs with milk and sugar. Just, like, having that formula and just being able to do it in a very straightforward way was very helpful, but, you know, it's less about how much I've cooked from it and just, like, knowing that it's there and just being able to pull it as a resource. So that's. That's what I love about it.

A (19:44)

Yeah, I love that it's like a resource book or. And also security blanket for a lot of cooks. Like, I think people like having it as just a reference, and that's how we use it. I mean, we use it all the time just for that.

C (19:56)

Well, yeah, and that's kind of. We had a deep awareness of that when we were going to revise for the 2019 edition.

B (20:03)

I do that a lot. Like, while I'll find a recipe and I'm like, I don't know, that just looks kind of off or interesting or different. And then I'll just compare it to the Joy so that I can get a sense of, like, okay, so here's like, this, the recipe, and this is what this other person did to Kind of shift it or, you know, change it up or something. And I think that's a good, a good way to use it too.

A (20:23)

Yeah. I have a question that we have been asked a bunch of times. I'm really curious what you're going to say. Why are cookbooks relevant at all in the era of the Internet and TikTok?

D (20:35)

I mean, it's so funny that you asked me that. Like, I am literally sitting at a table with my computer balanced on a stack of cookbooks next, next to another stack. I'll just show you. Like, I have cookbooks everywhere. I mean, I, I don't think there's anything like it. I mean, to me it's like my husband's a filmmaker, so it'd be like asking him, what's the point of going to the movies if you can go be at home on your couch streaming a movie? And it's like, well, yeah, you can stream, stream a movie, but you're missing out on this incredible cultural experience and being connected. And for me, like, a cookbook is a contained thing. It's like, it's not endless. It's not like an endless scroll. It's not, you know, it's not, you're not being distracted with pop ups and videos. And so nobody's selling you anything because you've already bought it. So you have the cookbook. And a cookbook is like a window into a person. It's a window into a culture. It's a window and it's almost like a vibe. Like you can just sit there with a cookbook and just kind of revel in it. I do that all the time. I'll just grab a cookbook and I'll just kind of flip through it. One of my favorites is Nancy Silverton's Moza at Home, which because it's for me, that's like more about, it's less about the restaurant Mozza and more about what Nancy Silverton just cooks for her friends. And you kind of just flip through, you like see how she makes a burger, see how she hosts like a, like a little cocktail hour. And, and I don't necessarily even cook the recipe. It's just like I kind of imbibe the spirit of the book. So for me, I mean, I get yelled at all the time for buying cookbooks and I don't cheat on my husband. But I do see, go online, buy cookbooks and catch them at the door and I tear open the packaging, throw out the packaging or recycle the packaging, and I kind of slip it into the house without telling him, and then hopefully he doesn't see the credit card bill.

C (22:15)

Do you cycle them? Take some out of the collection just to make it look like it's not growing or clearly.

D (22:21)

Like, if you could see my. My kitchen right now, you would see that. No, I have way more. And it's funny because I just went to. I don't know if you know Jesse Sheehan, the cookbook author, but she invited me to her house, and she has walls and walls and walls of cookbooks, but she has all this space because she lives in Connecticut. So it's like, if I just had. If I didn't live in Brooklyn, like, I could have more shelves, I could have more space. So therefore, I should be able to have more cookbooks. So I think that's my argument.

C (22:45)

No, it's a good rationale for trying to find a good big space.

D (22:49)

Yeah.

A (22:50)

We were asked that question a bunch on book tour, and at first it kind of felt personal, like they were asking us to justify our existence. And it's like, we just spent 10 years working on this book, and you're now asking me if it's. If it's relevant at all. And kind of the answer that we have come up with, which I do believe this answer. But very much like the Internet is. Is a powerful tool, it has also gotten harder to parse the information that you are looking for. You don't know if the first result or the second or third is accurate. You don't know who that person is, why they're saying the things they're saying. It's kind of gotten worse with the AI overview and also all the sponsored spaces at the top of the search results page.

C (23:36)

Yeah, I feel like AI is actually making us more relevant.

A (23:39)

I agree. I think it is, because then you have to dig a little deeper and figure out, okay, where's the source from? Like, how do I know this person knows what they're talking about? And I think, you know, not all cookbooks are good. And there are wrong things in cookbooks, but they are more vetted, they're edited, they're tested. There's a little more of assurance that you are getting something, you know, resembling correct information. And also just as a reference for, like, maybe you do have a favorite recipe that you find on the Internet or on TikTok, but it uses an ingredient you're not familiar with, and you want to learn more about that ingredient so you can look it up in a cookbook, which is going to tell you how to use it, where it comes from what it's made of. So that was our kind of default answer after a while.

C (24:23)

Yeah, no, I feel like we had that down pat and now I can just barely summon. Oh, well.

D (24:30)

I mean, I think for me also, like, this culture of skipping to recipe is so unhealthy because for me, the whole point of a recipe is the context. It's like, this is my grandmother's chili. Like, she learned this from her mother. She made it with poblano chilies because that's what she had available. I mean, it's just like whatever the story is that surrounds the recipe is what makes it taste good. It's like when you go to a restaurant and they're like, chef went foraging this morning and found these morel mushrooms. I mean, that makes it taste better than if they're like, we just have these in a, in a drawer and we just stumbled upon, you know, and so, like, for me, a cookbook is all about giving context to recipes. It's like explaining why is this important to the author or why, why you should make it a certain way. I just feel like that's so important. And I think the Internet really is trying to teach us, like, not to read the context, just to read the recipe, which to me is besides the point.

A (25:24)

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not on board with the, the people who like to hate on the blog intros, like, come on, man, you're getting a free recipe read.

D (25:32)

Yeah.

A (25:32)

I mean, you don't have to read it, but, like, don't complain about it.

D (25:35)

Well, you know why? I think, you know what I think happened to be fair to those people? I think a lot of people started gaming the SEO on recipes.

A (25:43)

Yes.

D (25:43)

By taking the title of the post like macaroni and cheese, and then trying to say that as many times in the copy of their text, rendering it like, almost like unreadable.

A (25:53)

Yes.

D (25:53)

It's like, I like making macaroni and cheese with macaroni and cheese recipes for my macaroni and cheese loving gram. You know, it's like, that's literally so you get the top result on Google. So it's like, yes, of course you want to skip past that. But I don't want to skip past, like, David Leibovitz's essay about what he's making.

A (26:09)

Yeah, totally.

E (26:10)

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A (27:32)

So you said your favorite cookbook store. Is it Archestratus? Do you have a favorite?

D (27:36)

Oh, God, I can't pick a favorite. I mean, I love Bonnie Slotnicks. I love Archestratus. I love. There's one called Kitchen Arts and Letters on the Upper east side. I really did love Vivienne books when I went there. There's so many. So yeah, those are all amongst the top ones. Oh, Omnivore books in San Francisco, which is maybe one of my favorites too.

A (27:54)

They're great. A big shout out to Vivian, friend of the pod.

B (27:57)

Yeah, she's great.

A (28:00)

What cookbooks are on your nightstand right now or wherever you keep books, Cookbooks.

D (28:04)

That you are reading, they are under this computer right now. In fact, I can show you. I just bought this. I'm so excited about it because I have the cutest dog in the world. And I bought Judith Jones Love Me Feed Me, which is her book about cooking for her dog.

B (28:20)

Oh, my gosh.

D (28:21)

My husband promptly was like, you are not cooking for our dog. And I'm like, if Judith Jones could do it, I can do it too. I have Samin Nosrat's new book, Good Things, which I got sent, which is so cool. And I'm really excited to start cooking from it. I have dinner in French by Melissa Clark, which is a couple years old. These are some of the new ones. I mean, I have Fat and Flour by Nicole Rucker. She's a baker in California who I was friends with. Oh, I have the grilling book by Bon Appetit because I've been grilling more lately. So many books everywhere, but these are the ones I had pulled recently, so. Yeah.

A (28:59)

Are you looking at any new cookbooks, Shannon?

B (29:01)

Right now I've been cooking from Love Japan a lot because a lot of their recipes are, like, pretty easy. We tend to cook a lot of Asian forward recipes in general. It just makes my stomach feel better, to be honest. So that's one that's been like, I have a little cookbook stand on my countertop and that one's been out a lot recently.

D (29:21)

So.

A (29:22)

Yeah. Any highlights, like, favorite recipes so far?

B (29:25)

There's this, like, squash and ground pork recipe that I have cooked probably 12 times. It's. It's so I. I just do that with some rice on the side and like, I like, like, usually put some nori on top. It's so delicious. And then they have some good noodle dishes as well, like a cold, like there's a cold sesame noodle dish that I really enjoy with cucumbers and stuff. What are you going to right now other than the joy?

A (29:50)

Well, tonight I'm going to cook a recipe out of a book called Sesame, I believe. I hope I'm getting this right. I think it's by the owners of Seed and Mill in New York. They make really good halva. Oh, nice. So it's all the cookbook. Is everything sesame? Like, every recipe has sesame seeds or tahini or halva. And I think this is going to be the first recipe I've made out of it. But it's like a broccoli tahini salad thing. That sounds really delicious. And then what else have we been cooking out of?

C (30:20)

I think we've walks of life. Get out of that.

A (30:24)

Yeah, it's Tender Heart.

C (30:25)

I feel like.

A (30:26)

Oh, yeah, Tender Heart. We've been cooking out of that for a while.

B (30:29)

That's Hetty McKinnon. I love her recipes so much.

A (30:31)

Yeah, she's great. I'm really excited that she's coming out with another book. Yeah.

B (30:35)

I like to ask all of our guests this, but do you have any go to recipes when you're feeling like you're not inspired in the kitchen that you like? Oh, I can do this thing and it's going to be super satisfying and somewhat easy things I can steal, ideas I can steal.

D (30:48)

Oh, yeah. I mean, my go to dish, which I talk about a lot, but I'LL talk about it again. Which is the dish. I mean, my husband asks for it all the time. And I make it almost like several times a month. Which is Lydia Bastianich's cava tapi with sun dried tomatoes and cannellini beans. And you basically just take a pan and you coat it with olive oil and also the oil from the jar of sun dried tomatoes. Then you take like five or six cloves of garlic, you slice them really thin, you put them in the pan, you slice the sun dried tomatoes, you put that in the pan, you kind of turn up the heat, you kind of toast it while you drop your cavatappi in salted water. And once the garlic is brown and the sun dried tomatoes start to toast a little, you use the pasta water to stop the cooking. You cook it down a little. And then you add cannellini beans, which you've drained and rinsed. You add more pasta water so it kind of creates this like creamy, saucy, sweet, garlicky thing. And then you add the cavatappi, which is a corkscrew shaped when it's al dente. You stir that all together and then you add like tons of parmesan and parsley. And it's just like, there's something about it. I don't know what it is. It's just like tart and garlicky and creamy and sweet and fun to eat because of its corkscrew nature. And then all the parmesan. And so I make that all the time. That's like one of my go to recipes for sure.

B (32:03)

That sounds delicious. Also cavatappi, great.

A (32:06)

Cavatapi is great.

D (32:07)

Oh yeah, It's a great shape. And then I like to, I like to frittata a lot, you know, like if I just have vegetables lying around, if I have onions or just anything, you know, even leftover, like roast chicken, vegetables are fun to do. So I'll like roast the chicken one night with root vegetables like parsnips and rutabaga and potatoes and carrots. And then whatever's left over that still has all that chicken fat in it, I just throw it in a cast iron skillet that I've coated in olive oil. And then I kind of reheat it. And then I add six eggs and some great, you know, grated cheddar cheese. And I bake it in the oven. And that's really good too.

A (32:39)

Yeah. Frittata is a great back pocket recipe for using random stuff in your fridge.

C (32:43)

I feel like we need to bring that one out more.

A (32:46)

Yeah. All right. So each week we answer a caller question. And this week we're going to be talking about no churn ice cream. Sarah, can you read the question, please?

F (32:57)

It's hot here. Tell me everything you know about making good no churn ice cream.

A (33:03)

Everything we know. Okay, I'm gonna try. So for anyone not familiar, no churn ice cream is just that you. It's an ice cream recipe that you don't have to have an ice cream maker to freeze. Any ice cream recipe could be no churn. But the thing that churning does is it keeps ice crystals from getting really big and creates like a smoother end product. And it also introduces air into the mixture so it's easier to scoop and just has a nice, not too dense texture. And usually the way that no churn ice cream works is you'll mix together your base. So often they'll have sweetened condensed milk or just cream or milk and flavorings. And then you will whip cream and fold that into the base. Sometimes some recipes have whipped eggs as well. Like there's a, there's a Stella Parks recipe on Serious eats where she whips eggs and also whipped cream. So it creates just more body and it kind of loosens up the ice cream. Otherwise it can be really dense. But the downside to doing that, in my opinion, is that no churn ice creams can sometimes be like too rich, which sounds impossible for ice cream because you want it to be rich. But if it's so rich, it kind of deadens your palate. Like you can't taste the flavors of the ice cream as well. And so it's kind of a balance. So there are a million no churn ice cream recipes, especially on the Internet, and they're all kind of the same. But you should also look into Kulfi, which is an Indian still frozen dessert. And it does not involve any whipped cream. It's basically milk that is cooked down milk, sometimes cream that is cooked down for a long time, and then flavorings are added and it's just frozen in little molds. But it does have like a more dense texture. But it's also kind of like fudgy and chewy. It's really good. The texture is really nice. And you can use evaporated milk instead of boiling your own milk if you don't want to do that for an hour while standing in your hot kitchen. John, do you have any thoughts on no churn ice cream?

C (35:07)

I mean, you've covered a lot in addition to the whipped egg whites and the Whipped cream. A lot of the. You know, there's some recipes that will actually be adding, like, a little bit of cornstarch just to keep the emulsion good and the ice crystals to a minimum. Yeah. And sometimes it's kind of more of a meringue situation, so that you're kind of avoiding, like, you know, the salmonella scare of just using raw eggs. Yeah. There's been no churn or still frozen ice creams and whatnot. Enjoy. Since, like, 1931. As you can imagine, it was probably kind of a necessity to have those for recreating ice cream at home back in the day. I mean, in fact, like, in 1931, when the first Joy was published, it was like, basically 50, 50 churn and no churn recipes. And. Yeah, in fact, like, I feel like I think it was the 1963 edition had 46 no churn recipes.

B (35:59)

Oh, my gosh.

C (36:00)

And now we have definitely paired those back. There's, like, I think a grand total of nine, if you're counting granitas. Granitas is also another thing. But, I mean, it kind of falls outside of the ice cream category, but it's also just like stone simple, and, you know, where you just. You make a sorbet base. You can do a coffee one if you want, but I tend to gravitate towards, like, citrus, you know, a sweetened sugar syrup type situation. And then you just freeze that. And then every now and then, you know, you freeze it in, like, a baking pan so it's kind of shallow. And then you just go in and just rough it up with either a fork or you could use, you know, a bench scraper.

A (36:36)

Yeah. I really love a coffee granita, and if you serve it with whipped cream on top, it gives you more of that. It almost is like a coffee ice cream vibe, but easier and you don't need a machine. There's also semifreddo, which is not the same as no churn ice cream, but it's kind of close. You whip eggs with a hot sugar syrup, and then you fold in whipped cream, and. And you have flavorings in there as well. So it gives a slightly different texture, but it's delicious. And it kind of scratches that ice cream itch, for sure. There's also a recipe that we found in the book today that I had kind of forgotten about, and I don't really remember that. Well, I'll have to retest it, but it's called coffee parfait, but it's not really a parfait in the way I think of it.

C (37:22)

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure where the nomenclature came from. I, I think that Irma actually gives a definition of parf parfait that I'm like. I think it's in the 1943 edition. It doesn't make any sense to me. It's like whipped egg whites. It's like, no, that's not what people think of when they think of parfait. But yeah, no, it's a custard base, a fairly light quote unquote, custard base. Just like a few egg yolks and like a cup of strong coffee and like a little bit of milk and a little bit of cornstarch. You bring that to, you know, to a simmer to 160 degrees just to make sure that the eggs are cooked. And then you incorporate whipped cream. Whipped cream is key until almost all of these.

A (38:04)

But there were a bunch of those parfait recipes in the 60s edition, right? Like you found several.

C (38:10)

Yeah, they go back a long ways, but yeah, there's. There were a ton of parfait recipes in like the early editions of the cookbook, for sure.

A (38:17)

Yeah, that was just a fun, a fun find today that I had totally forgotten about. Another still frozen dessert to think about is ice pops because they're so, they're so dang easy, you know, so good and they're so good. And if you're looking for really good ice pop inspiration, there's a cookbook called Paletas by Fanny Gerson. She's the owner of La New Yorkina, which is a, like a Paleta vendor in New York. And I think they make ice cream. But the book is great. All the recipes are really delicious and there's lots of fun, fun combinations and, and flavors in there. So highly recommend that. Adam, do you have any wisdom regarding what to do if you don't have an ice cream maker?

D (39:02)

Yeah, I recently did the thing where you freeze bananas and you put them in a blender. And I added peanut butter and some vanilla and some honey and it was great. I really liked it. I don't think it aged well. Like, I don't think it sits very well in the freezer. But right out of the blender I was like, oh, this is a very refreshing, mostly healthy treat. But granitas are really fun to make too. I know you mentioned granita. I went to Zuni Cafe when I was on my book tour and I had their famous espresso granita with the whipped cream. And you're totally right. Like that combination of the icy crystals with strong coffee flavor, and then that luscious whipped cream on top is just delicious. So I love that idea.

C (39:40)

Did you order the chicken salad situation or.

D (39:44)

I was by myself. You know, it's so funny. In the novel, my main character talks about how she and her father used to, like, sit at the bar at Zuni and have dinner. But when I got there, I went by myself. I realized you can't sit at the bar and have dinner. You could stand at the bar. I don't even know if you can have dinner there. But I got a table by myself, and the chicken just seemed too big to get for myself. So I got their porchetta, which they actually had run out of, so they served me, like, steak instead, which was not as good. But the granita, honestly, was maybe the highlight of the meal. It was so good.

A (40:17)

Nice. I think it was last year or maybe a couple years ago, I did a. Was it just a Campari? I'm trying to remember. It had Campari in it. A granita. I can't remember if it was just Campari, granita or if I was trying to do, like a.

C (40:30)

That would be on brand for you.

A (40:32)

Yeah, that would be on brand. But that was really delicious, too. You have to be careful with the alcohol in any kind of ice cream or anything frozen, because if you add too much, it just won't ever freeze. But if you can get the level right, that can be really delicious, too. I'm trying to think if there's anything else about no churn ice cream. I think that is all the wisdom I have for this. For this topic.

D (40:58)

I mean, I. I think it's worth saying. I mean, this. This is kind of flies in the face of the question, but it is really fun to have an ice cream maker. Like, you know, I. I have my frozen canister in the freezer, and I haven't used it this summer. So now I'm embarrassed that I'm saying this because I clearly didn't use it. But when I have used it and I've made, like, vanilla bean ice cream with, like, a real vanilla bean or what else have I made? David Leibovitz has one with Whoppers in it. Like a malted milk ice cream with Whoppers, and it's just, like, the most satisfying thing in the world to like, pull that canister off once it's turned and just, like, eat with a spoon out of there. So if you. If the person who asked this question is on the fence about getting an ice cream maker, I think just go for it.

A (41:37)

Yeah, highly. Recommend also.

B (41:38)

What.

A (41:38)

What is the name of his. Of David Leibovitz's ice cream book? Because it's also really good.

D (41:43)

The Perfect Scoop.

A (41:44)

The Perfect Scoop. Yeah. Highly recommend that one. And Paletas by Fanny Gerson. Oh, I thought of one more ice cream thing. I just saw this on Instagram maybe last week, but the New York Times did a recipe where you take frozen whole strawberries and then just blend them in a food processor with. I think there was tahini in there and then some sugar and I don't remember what. All yogurt. I think there was yogurt. And just blend that up and then you kind of have instant ice cream right out of your food processor. Just using frozen fruit.

B (42:17)

I feel like I've seen that, that kind of thing pop up a lot lately. Is just like ways to make ice cream without it being like eggs and, you know, all of that. It's just like frozen fruit goes a long way.

A (42:27)

Yeah. We do have an ice cream maker. When we were recipe testing for the last edition of Joy, we splurged on a Breville, the one that has the compressor inside so that you don't have to freeze. It is a nice. It's nice as long as you never.

C (42:42)

Have to move it.

A (42:43)

Yeah, it's really heavy.

C (42:45)

I think we have it on a shelf that it is like kind of at waist level so that we don't have to.

A (42:50)

Don't hurt our back.

C (42:53)

It's not that bad, but it is kind of a, A.

A (42:55)

It's a little too. It's a beast.

C (42:56)

Yeah.

A (42:56)

Yeah. But it's, it's nice. And I wanted to buy that one because when I worked at the restaurant, we actually used that machine, the Breville. It's just like a consumer facing machine. It's not like four restaurants, but it could churn out. You could do batch after batch after batch after batch of ice cream in that thing and it just doesn't quit. It's pretty great.

D (43:16)

And isn't the advantage of it that you don't have to cool down the base when you cook it, so you just dump it right in and have ice cream. That's really cool too.

A (43:24)

And it plays a little song when it's done.

D (43:26)

Oh my God. I mean, okay, you just sold it right there.

B (43:31)

We should be eating more ice cream.

A (43:33)

I agree.

D (43:33)

Yeah, totally.

C (43:35)

We'll have to experiment with one of those consumer facing Paco jets.

A (43:39)

Yeah.

C (43:39)

A creamy.

A (43:40)

Oh yeah, the Ninja creamy. I haven't tried that yet. Ninja. If you want to sponsor our podcast taking phone calls. So this week's Joy Scouts recipe, in the spirit of no churn ice cream, is going to be the pistachio and rose water Kulfi on page 853 of the 2019 edition. It's really simple. It's just evaporated milk and cream that gets infused with cardamom pods. And then you refrigerate that until it's chilled. And then you mix in chopped pistachios and some rose water.

C (44:10)

And you. You take the cardamom out.

A (44:11)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, unless you like fun surprises.

C (44:15)

Never mind.

A (44:17)

But then you. You pour it into molds and freeze it until solid. And the only thing I will say about this recipe is, you know, just be cautious with the rose water because depending on the brand, some brands are just much stronger than others. Normally, like Nielsen Massey, I think, makes a rose water that is more like an extract. So it's very strong. I would use, like, maybe a teaspoon. I think our recipe calls for a tablespoon of rose water, but that Nielsen Massey stuff is really strong.

C (44:43)

Yeah, I mean, we were writing it for. What is it Sadoff or.

A (44:47)

Yeah, I think that's the brand sadoff. So that's a nice, mild brand that's not going to overwhelm it. But just be careful with the rose water.

B (44:55)

What page was it?

A (44:56)

853. If you have a topic, ingredient, or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. We'd love to hear from you. Next week's topic comes from our caller.

F (45:11)

I will say I added one word to this caller question for selfish reasons, because I want to hear what our.

A (45:17)

Next week's guest has to say.

F (45:19)

So question is, hit us with your best unsung kale and radicchio recipes. Winter's coming fun.

A (45:27)

So next week we will chat about kale and radicchio and winter greens, and that'll be great because our guest knows all kinds of things about that. All right, everybody, what are we. What are we cooking this week?

B (45:38)

I did not do a meal plan this week, so I have no idea. We're just flying. But, yep, we're just figuring it out. But I do have a date with a friend to go get corn dogs.

A (45:48)

Heck, yeah.

B (45:48)

And I'm just. I. I'm just really excited. I know. I mean, I can't remember the last time I had a corn dog. And corn dogs are great. And so that's the only. That's about as far as we're Getting with our plans so far, we're just gonna meet at the corn dog spot.

A (46:01)

Great.

B (46:01)

And then figure it out from there again. It's just a very, like, flying by the seat of my pants week in general.

A (46:06)

It feels like I've been there. Yeah. A lot, actually.

C (46:10)

We are definitely going to try to do the tuna canning situation again.

B (46:14)

Oh, yeah, we are going to. It's going to be hot, so we'll have to hide inside when.

A (46:17)

When it's going. That's okay. Yeah, we got ac.

B (46:20)

Yeah, we got it.

C (46:21)

Yeah. We'll just, you know, look at the pressure canner with binoculars.

D (46:24)

Exactly.

A (46:27)

We do. Whenever we use the pressure canner or often when we're canning in the summer, we do have air conditioning in our house. House. But we like to put it outside on a camp stove because it's just too hot. There's no need for that. So that's a really nice. That's a nice thing. If you have the space, get a cheap camp stove and use that for canning projects. What am I making? So we also don't have a meal plan this week, so I have tonight figured out.

B (46:51)

That's a good step.

A (46:52)

Yeah. We're gonna make this basil chicken stir fry that was in a recent Bon Appetit. And it's like ground chicken and tons of Thai basil. I actually couldn't find any Thai basil today, so it's just going to be regular basil. But it has sambal, olek, and oyster sauce. I can't remember it all. It just looks really delicious. And then I'm going to serve that with the broccoli tahini thing from sesame. I'm excited about that, and hopefully that will generate some ideas for the rest of the week.

B (47:23)

I love a stir fry. It's such a good way to, like, just throw stuff that you have in the kitchen into a delicious meal.

A (47:30)

Yeah. What about you, Adam? What are you cooking this week?

D (47:33)

Okay. I'm experimenting lately with overnight oats. I've been toasting. Get ready for this. I've been toasting the oats with coconut flakes, walnuts and sesame seeds and pumpkin seeds. Like, I toast all that, like, in a big skillet until it's all kind of golden brown, and then I let it cool. And then I've been mixing that in with yogurt and, like, oat milk and some maple syrup and raisins and, like, letting it set up so it's sort of like this, like, toasty, you know, creamy morning treat. I don't know if anyone's done that yet. I feel like I'm maybe like paving the way. This could be like a whole new trend. So you heard it here first. And honestly, when you're talking about all those cookbooks, as the cookbook collector that I am, I like just wrote down Love Japan, Sesame, Walks of Life. I already have Tender Hearted, so I will maybe be buying those books secretly.

B (48:28)

We won't tell your husband.

D (48:30)

Yes, and cooking from them. So I might be making all those things that you just mentioned too.

A (48:36)

Awesome. And before we wrap, where can listeners follow you?

D (48:40)

Well, I'm Amateur Gourmet on all platforms, so you can find me on Instagram and TikTok are probably where I'm most active these days. I also have a substack newsletter called the Amateur Gourmet Newsletter and you can find my novel wherever books are sold.

A (48:55)

Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking Podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram hejoyofcooking. Stay tuned for next week where we will tackle radicchio and kale. And don't forget to make this week's recipe pistachio and Rosewater Kulfi on page 853. Call in with questions, hopes, history or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

B (49:27)

And we could not do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation Production House. Thank you to Dave Druske, our production coordinator, Hayley Bowers, our audio engineer and Sarah Marshall, our producer.

F (49:37)

If you love the stories we bring you each week, please consider supporting us on Patreon. And as an independent media company, your support is absolutely essential. It allows us to continue creating high quality professional episodes that amplify the voices of women, small business owners, writers, artists and creatives and keep their stories free from commercial pressure. By becoming a Patreon member, you're not just supporting us, you're investing in the future of independent media. Please visit Patreon.com the Joy of Creation Production House to join our community today. Thank you for listening and supporting our podcast Dreams.