Erin Jeanne McDowell: A Casual Culinary Chat About Pie

Summary

The Joy of Cooking Podcast – Episode Summary
Episode Title: Erin Jeanne McDowell: A Casual Culinary Chat About Pie
Release Date: December 3, 2025
Host: The Joy of Creation Production House
Guests: Erin Jeanne McDowell (bestselling author and baking expert)
Co-hosts: Megan Scott, John Becker, Sarah Marshall, Dirk

---

Overview

This deliciously in-depth episode centers on the world of pie with special guest Erin Jeanne McDowell, author of "The Book on Pie," "The Fearless Baker," and more. The Joy of Cooking team (Megan, John, Sarah, and Dirk) shares recent kitchen victories and defeats, then welcomes Erin for a lively, practical, and sometimes nerdy conversation about pies—how to modernize classic recipes, solve pie dough struggles, select the best pie pans, and bring fearlessness and fun back to baking.

---

Episode Outline & Key Insights

1. Warm-Up: Favorite Recent Eats and Kitchen Adventures

(00:00–08:54)

• The hosts introduce themselves with culinary confessions:
  • Sarah’s week of New York pizza, including morning “breakfast pizza.”
    • "Slices of pizza for me in New York are kind of like a snack.” (A, 03:09)
  • Megan attempted an escarole pie from Claudia Fleming’s "Delectable," remarking on the pie’s sturdy, crumbly shortcrust and escarole/anchovy/olive/pecorino filling (05:11–06:09).
  • John’s “Sunday sauce” (meat-rich pasta sauce using freezer finds) and the team’s rediscovery of their Joy Scouts “grapes & sausages” recipe (07:08–08:52).
  • Discussion on the creative joys and perpetual editing when cooking from their own (or others’) recipes.

---

2. Guest Introduction: Erin Jeanne McDowell

(08:52–10:17)

• Background: Erin’s credentials as a bestselling author and baking authority with NYT, Food52, and a hit YouTube channel.
• Megan comments about knowing Erin “via Instagram” and discusses the small, interconnected food media world.

---

3. Pie Talk: Innovations, Favorites, & Baking Wisdom

(10:17–25:04)

Pies of the Week

• Erin is working on holiday pies for virtual classes: pumpkin sugar pie (“Hoosier Pie”), which uses flour instead of eggs as a thickener for a silkier texture, and Honey Nut squash for color and flavor (11:24–12:36).
  • "I’m kind of a certified pumpkin pie hater... And the key to me liking it is that there’s less pumpkin in it than most pumpkin pies.” (D, 11:00)

On Modernizing Classics

• Erin and Megan discuss updating old recipes by adjusting flavors, adding new ingredients (honey nut squash), and responding to shifts in home cook knowledge.
  • “I think there’s a lot of ways to make something new, and with the internet—there’s so many versions of the classics, no one should be afraid to riff on it.” (D, 18:42)
• Example: Increase garlic (no more rubbing the pan and discarding!), adjust cake methods (drop the fussy egg white separation for better, more manageable results) (19:02–20:36).

Baking Philosophy

• Erin’s next book focuses on “building blocks” and mix-and-match creativity in baking, breaking out of the “baking is rigid science” mindset.
  • “Once you master that, look at all the other things you can make... I want to give people the flexibility and freedom to customize their bakes.” (D, 22:11)
  • Both Erin and Megan stress the value of visual cues and sensory markers in recipes.
  • "You don’t need a huge crazy food science explanation... Just, instead of saying ‘be careful not to overmix’, let’s say what overmixing is, what it might look like.” (D, 23:41)

Memorable Sidebars

• Brainstorming about “golden brown” color swatches in a future edition of "Joy of Cooking" (24:41–25:04).

---

4. Pie Troubleshooting with Erin

(25:04–31:29)

• Megan confesses she’s lost her “pie dough mojo”—crusts shrinking, butter leaking, tough texture (25:49–26:18).
• Erin unpacks common pie myths and scientifically grounded fixes:
  • You can work pie dough more than you think; rest is crucial to prevent shrinkage.
  • Over-hydrated (too-wet) dough leads to toughness.
  • Butter size and shape matter: aim for flat shards (“no thicker than walnut halves, but two-dimensional, not three-dimensional”).
  • The “clean hand test” for proper hydration: dough should not stick or leave flour residue.
    • “The key is it just needs significant enough rest before you continue.” (D, 26:49)
• Megan’s issues may be tied to pan material (metal or glossy ceramic > glass) and butter technique.

---

5. Therapeutic Bakes & Bread Love

(31:29–33:48)

• Erin: Pie is most therapeutic—especially Thanksgiving pies made for family, not camera; bread baking is a close contender.
• Erin’s favorite breads for home: pita, naan, focaccia—preferably slow-rise (33:00–33:48).

---

6. Deep Pie Nerd Out: Pumpkin Tips, Apple Picks, Sturdy Pie Challenge

(34:33–42:44)

• Custard Pie Tips:

  • “Jello jiggle” test—stop baking when the edges are set and the middle wobbles; cool slowly for best texture (cracks/weeping are from over-baking or rapid cooling). (D, 34:53)

• Favorite Apples:

  • Cosmic Crisp is Erin’s new go-to for baking: juicy, sweet, vibrant, and holds shape without browning (36:56–38:11).

• Sturdy Pie Challenge:

  • Erin’s viral challenge: properly baked pies you can confidently hold (and post!). Sparked by her party trick of serving pie by lifting out whole slices.
    • “There’s nothing more satisfying than eating a mile-high coconut cream pie—like a slice of pizza and no fork, just reckless abandon.” (D, 41:40)

• Pie Pans:

  • Metal pans, especially USA Pan (nonstick, lightweight, optimal browning), are tops; glossy ceramic second, glass last. For adventurous bakers, try cast iron or disposable aluminum for bonus ease and browning (42:59–44:27).
  • “Glass, I’m sorry. You are my least favorite... You can see yourself out.” (D, 43:17)

---

7. Budget & Streamlined Cooking: Listener Q&A

(46:04–56:54)

• “Streamlined Cooking” Chapter: cooking shouldn’t be recipe-dependent; start with what's on sale, batch-cook and repurpose, buy versatile ingredients (large tubs of plain yogurt, bulk spices).
• Cost-Cutting Strategies:
  • Shop deals, use butcher cuts over prepackaged meat, learn to bake bread.
  • Cook beans in batches—leads to tacos, burgers, soups—"Rice & Beans With a Thousand Faces."
  • Tofu: Erin’s favorite shelf-stable protein, also mixes with meat to stretch budget.
  • Joy recipes: chana masala (p. 217), dal (p. 218), minestrone (p. 85), garlic soup (p. 91), haloski (p. 300).

Notable quote:

• “I feel like we’ve joked about writing a cookbook called ‘Rice and Beans With a Thousand Faces’ because every culture has their rice and bean dish.” (B, 53:32)

---

8. Closing: Culinary Plans & Final Wisdom

(61:00–end)

• The hosts share what’s up next: Sarah’s planning Thai food from a new cookbook, John prepping gumbo (with lots of Cajun sausage), and Megan excited to bake holiday fruitcakes (with only the best dried fruits and nuts).
  • “Before you turn up your nose, my fruitcakes are really awesome—I'm here to rehabilitate fruitcake’s reputation.” (B, 62:17)
• Erin’s family bake night involves kid-friendly puff pastry “bows” with cinnamon sugar.

Where to find Erin Jeanne McDowell:

• “You can find out so much more about me on my website, erinjeanmcdowell.com, on my YouTube channel... and on social—Instagram @emcdowell.” (D, 64:05)

---

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• “Pumpkin sugar pie...is a custard pie thickened with flour instead of eggs. It is so smooth and creamy and delicious—and easy to make.” (D, 10:54)
• “No one should be afraid to put a spin or a riff on [classics] to bring them into the modern era.” (D, 18:58)
• “It’s not actually that possible to totally overwork pie dough... The key is it just needs significant enough rest before you continue.” (D, 26:49)
• “There’s nothing more satisfying than eating a mile high coconut cream pie—like a slice of pizza and no fork, just reckless abandon.” (D, 41:40)
• “Metal [pie pans] are my absolute favorite... Glass, I’m sorry. You are my least favorite material. You can see yourself out.” (D, 43:17)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 – 08:54: Host kitchen stories & recent food discussion
• 09:38 – 10:17: Erin Jeanne McDowell introduction
• 10:21 – 13:00: Guest’s holiday pies, honey nut squash, and pumpkin pie opinions
• 17:21 – 20:01: Modernizing classics, changing tastes, ingredient swaps/baking science
• 25:04 – 31:29: Pie dough troubleshooting (hydration, butter, mixing, pan material)
• 34:53 – 36:25: Custard pies and the “jello jiggle” doneness test
• 36:56 – 38:11: Favorite baking apples & Cosmic Crisp defense
• 41:49 – 44:27: Sturdy Pie Challenge & pie pan materials
• 46:12 – 56:54: Budget cooking, “streamlined cooking” philosophy, favorite affordable recipes
• 61:00 – 64:05: What’s cooking next week & where to find the guest online

---

Conclusion

This episode is packed with practical pie wisdom, kitchen creativity, and an infectious sense of kitchen joy—reminding bakers and cooks alike to experiment, troubleshoot, and not fear throwing tradition (and extra garlic) into their recipes. Erin Jeanne McDowell’s approach is empowering: pie can be fearless, fun, and a deeply personal expression of love—served by the sturdy slice, no fork required.

---

Next Week:

• All about canning safety resources with a special guest.
• This week’s challenge: Make “Black Eyed Peas and Greens,” p. 216, and share it with the team!

---

For full recipes, discussions, and more, visit joyofcooking.substack.com or follow @thejoyofcooking on Instagram.

Transcript

[A]

Sa. Welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for a discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of Joy of Cooking. We talk kitchen victories and misadventures and what we are cooking and eating right now. Thanks for joining us at the table today. I'm Sarah Marshall, producer of this podcast and owner of Marshall's Hot Sauce. And I ate New York pizza almost every day this week.

[B]

I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night. And my kitchen good luck spell is letting the rice boil over every time.

[C]

I can confirm that. I'm John Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook, and I put an embarrassing amount of ricotta on toast every now and then.

[B]

What's an embarrassing amount?

[C]

I mean, like, kind of the thickness of the toast.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I'm always. Yeah. The last time I got embarrassed, it was that much.

[A]

And then do you put other things on top of it or that's it, Just ricotta.

[C]

I do a little mix in little. Some little mix ins, like chili flakes, salt and pepper, maybe some dried oregano or, you know, fresh herbs on top, a glug of olive oil. Maybe if I'm feeling luxurious.

[B]

I need to put some shine on that coat.

[C]

Damn right.

[A]

Thanks for sharing your secrets with us, John.

[C]

This is really just my time to confess. Little.

[A]

Yeah, I like it.

[B]

His breakfasts are so not things I would eat for breakfast. I mean, I will eat ricotta toast for breakfast.

[C]

That's strange coming from you because I make you breakfast.

[B]

That's true. But you, you make my breakfast differently than yours. You put a lot of chili flakes on pretty much everything you eat for breakfast.

[C]

Oh, whatever.

[B]

Am I not. Am I not right?

[C]

I don't make a special breakfast for you. We eat the same stuff.

[B]

Yeah, well, usually you know what I'm talking about. Don't void or pretend.

[A]

Dirk puts volcano sparkle on everything that he eats for breakfast. He likes to, like, make sure his head is really sweaty when he.

[C]

Clears out the sinuses.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

He never gets sick, and I think that's why.

[B]

Yeah, probably. So you've been eating New York pizza all week?

[A]

Yeah, went to New York this week and it was my daughter's first time, and so we had to get her, you know, New York slices. But the thing that I do when I'm in New York is like, we'll go to eat places, but then I Always kind of know that no matter where I eat or what I'm going to eat, when we walk home, I'm going to stop somewhere for a slice of pizza. I like to, like, go to a different shop every time, but I also have my favorite. So slices of pizza for me in New York are kind of like a.

[B]

Snack, you know, that's a really good New York hack. Just go to do your regular meals, but then just grab a piece of pizza.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, they're so cheap and it's so good and I just want to experience it all. And there's like great pizza places everywhere. And it's not really like that here. Like, you kind of have to make it a destination to go, go get good pizza. But there you can just be wandering around and be like, oh, I haven't had that slice before. And then you just pop in and get it and so happy.

[C]

You're right. It is hard to be spontaneous with your pizza consumption.

[D]

Here it is.

[A]

You have to, like, plan it. You have to like, go to a certain neighborhood in a certain spot. You can't just be like wandering and be like, I'm gonna go get a slice of pizza. Well, also, not that many places sell.

[B]

Just a slice of pizza.

[A]

Here you have to like, get a whole pie.

[B]

Most.

[A]

Most places.

[B]

Oh, no, you wouldn't want that. Not a whole pizza.

[A]

Which I can also do. But in New York, I wander in for a slice, not for a whole pie.

[B]

Any favorites, favorite places?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, my favorite one is called Carmine's Carmines and Sons and I go there every time and they do like wood oven pizza. They do like the big thin crust, but then they also do like the big thick crust. They do both. And so you can get both things. And then they also have garlic knots. And then my other favorite reason is that they also have an espresso machine so you can get like pizza. So it's kind of like going to a coffee shop, but then you get a slice of pizza instead of like, Scotty. It's like how I start the day. Like, I'll go have breakfast pizza, which is also my other New York.

[C]

It seems like one will counteract the other. I mean, regardless of whether or not you have the coffee first or the.

[A]

Or the pizza, either way I'm happy. It doesn't really matter. And so I like to start my day.

[D]

Well.

[B]

I made a different kind of. I feel like this is going to be a pie heavy episode, which is great, exciting. But I made a different kind of pie this weekend. I Got this cookbook by Claudia Fleming called Delectable. And I kind of bookmarked a few things, and one of the things that I was really excited about was an escarole pie. I grew some escarole in our garden this year, and it did really, really well. Like, just amazingly well. And so it uses a ton of escarole, and it's flavored with anchovies and olives and pecorino and lots of garlic. And you just cook it down, and cook it down and cook it down. I had to wash. I had to wash that escarole, like, four times because it was a slug party in there. There were so many slugs in. Well, after you cook it down, then you put it in a kind of. It was like a pastry crust. And mine didn't turn out probably the way that Claudia Fleming intended. It was not as flaky, but it was very. It was like a short crust, so very crumbly and tender.

[C]

I mean, the slices really were structurally sound.

[B]

Yeah, they held together really well, which was nice because you could just pick it up and eat a piece. It's like a pie that you just bake on a baking sheet, not in a pie pan. But I feel like that's going in the permanent rotation. And I think you could use. I mean, you could use kale, or you could use. I probably wouldn't use spinach. Too watery, but, like, other hearty greens would be. Really.

[A]

Sounds cool. It almost sounds like a escrow Caesar salad pie or something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is it?

[B]

Except cooked.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Right?

[A]

I mean. Yeah, cooked down.

[B]

Spirit.

[A]

Yeah, the spirit animal of Caesar salad. Sounds great.

[B]

What about you, John?

[C]

Oh, made some Sunday sauce on Sunday. This is a topic of conversation, like, can you make Sunday sauce on Saturday? I think it's allowed, but I decided to wait until the day of. Yeah, just. I think we had some. We had some sausages in the freezer that we had bought for that very purpose, like, months and months ago. But, yeah, just some random. You know, you buy a roast, like a chuck roast or whatever, and you only need so much for a recipe. So there were several items like that in the freezer. Some, like some country country ribs, Pork country ribs. So, yeah, all of it. Made it into the sauce. And we gifted some sauce, and we have some for the freezer. And. Yeah, it's good.

[B]

Full of meaty, meaty bits from the freezer.

[C]

It was a good one.

[B]

Yeah, it was really good. And we also made our Joy Scouts recipe of the week, which was the grapes and sausages on page five. Hundred. Really, really good. Like, better than I. It had been a long time since we made it and it was way better than I remembered it being. And it's very, very simple. So that's. I feel like it ticks all the weeknight cooking boxes.

[C]

Yeah, we, we plus it up with some onions this time. Some, you know, just to give it a little bit more substance because we were sort of over polenta.

[A]

But do you guys find sometimes now that since you're not like currently actively hardcore recipe testing, that you can just like enjoy some of the recipes in your book? Like when we, when we do these recipes of the week, you can just be like, oh yeah, this is great. You can just like sit with it. Rather than being like, what do we need to do with this 1 teaspoon of salt or whatever you would do with the recipe.

[C]

The late. The latter.

[B]

Yeah, I was gonna say. No, no, we can't just enjoy things, Sarah. No, we do enjoy. I mean, we enjoy it. We enjoy making the recipes, but we're all. We always have our editing hat on. Like, can we. What can we do better? Or how, you know, I was thinking, oh man, shallots would be really good in this recipe. And you know, nothing critical really, but.

[A]

Just always wanting to make it better and better.

[B]

Yeah. And we are starting to think about the next edition of the book. So we're, we have it on the brain. All the, all the things we need to change and add and improve.

[C]

So, yeah, I feel like this time around for this particular recipe was like maybe add some optional onions and then also make it a one pan.

[B]

Yeah, make it a one pan meal instead of having to brown the sausages first. Is that what you're thinking?

[C]

We'll brown the sausages first but then just, you know, take them off briefly while you do the grapes and whatnot.

[B]

Okay, gotcha. Yeah, that's a good idea. But for anybody who makes the recipe again, it's on page 512. Definitely tag us on Instagram. We would love to see what you make. We're at the Joy of Cooking this week. We'd like to welcome Erin McDowell to the table. Erin McDowell is a best selling author, recipe developer and award winning food stylist with a focus on baking. She has contributed to the New York Times, Cooking Food52 and Food Network Kitchen. She's the author of the Fearless Baker, the book on pie and savory baking. Erin is currently working on her next book and has a thriving YouTube channel. Happy baking with Erin Jean McDowell. Erin, welcome to the show.

[D]

Thanks so much for having me.

[B]

It's so great to have you. I feel like Sarah was asking if we knew you, and I was like, well, kind. Not really. I mean, I see you on my Instagram feed all the time, which makes me feel like I know you kind of well.

[D]

And it's a small world. I feel like the whole food, media in general, I feel like even the people that I haven't met yet, I'm so familiar with everybody's work. And then when I meet them, I have this realization of, oh, right, we've never even met in real life before.

[B]

Yeah, we should probably shake hands instead of just jumping right into what, Whatever.

[D]

The latest.

[C]

Yeah. Virtual shake.

[D]

Virtual shake indeed.

[B]

So what have you been cooking this week that you're excited about?

[D]

Oh, my gosh. Well, as you can imagine, it is a pie pie centric world over here in my neck of the woods. And this week I'm working on a couple of very classic holiday pies in preparation for some virtual classes I'm teaching this weekend. So I'm doing my pumpkin sugar pie. Sugar pie is in Hoosier pie, some people know it as, which is a custard pie thickened with flour instead of eggs. And it is so smooth and creamy and delicious and easy to make. And I also am kind of a certified pumpkin pie hater. Don't tell, she says on the podcast. And this is the pumpkin pie that I really like. And the key to me liking it is that there's less pumpkin in it than most pumpkin pies.

[B]

I feel. I don't. I don't know if I. I mean, I like pumpkin pie, but my favorite pumpkin pie is a pumpkin chess pie. And it is lighter on the pie. It just has a lighter texture.

[D]

Yeah, exactly. This one is sort of creamier. So it's like creamier than a traditional pumpkin pie. And, you know, I'm one of those people that's not even always using pumpkin. I really like to use squash when I make pie. And this year I'm using a lot of honey nut squash. I really, really like it. It's a little bit sweeter and the color is so pretty, even after it's like made with cinnamon and, you know, it still is kind of this more vibrant orange color.

[B]

So honey nut. Honey nut squash is kind of a newer varietal of butternut squash. Do you know more about it?

[D]

I don't remember what it is crossed with, but it has. It's. You know, they're the cutest little s. They're so cute. They're maybe Like a quarter the size of a butternut squash. You know, I think obviously they can vary in size, and I would say the flesh is like a significantly more vibrant orange, a deeper and more vibrant orange. And they're sweeter, but otherwise you can cook them and do everything with them about the same as butternut squash. And because they're so tiny, they're also kind of cute to roast in savory applications and just serve someone a whole half. And that's kind of a fun, fun little thing, too.

[A]

I love that you mentioned chestnut. And in New York, you know, they have roasted chestnuts at the. That you can get, like, in the parks. But then I had a. I went to a Korean restaurant and I had a chestnut makgeolli, like the, like the Korean drink, but they made it with, like, cinnamon. So it was kind of like. Kind of like how you would have like a horchata, but it was like a rice wine with chestnut.

[B]

It was.

[A]

I'd never heard of it or had it, and it was so great and fun.

[D]

That sounds delicious.

[A]

It was really cool.

[B]

Yeah, I love chestnuts. And you don't see them that often.

[A]

No, you don't see them. And I. Well, I feel like we don't see them here very often. Maybe you see them more on the East Coast.

[B]

I mean, they'll be at the farmer's market for a few weeks, but very.

[A]

Fleetingly, there's no one person that brings them to our farmer's market.

[B]

And they're very. They're actually really perishable, too.

[D]

So they.

[B]

You can't just hoard them and keep them all winter. You kind of have to just get them. Hey, Joy of Cooking listeners, did you know the same family that taught America how to cook also taught California how to make world class Chardonnay? The same joy and passion for life that inspired Irma Rombauer to write the Joy of Cooking inspired her great nephew, Kerner Rombauer to establish Rombauer vineyards. Founded in 1980 in the Napa Valley, Rombauer has been producing acclaimed wines from California ever since. While they're famous for their iconic California Chardonnay, Rombauer crafts a diverse collection of delicious wines that bring joy to your table. Ready to taste the legacy? Visit rombauer.com joy or use code joypod all caps for 15% off your order. That's R-O-M-B-A-U-E-R.com joy or code joypod.

[E]

All caps must be 21 to enjoy.

[B]

Erin, what is your relationship with The Joy of Cooking.

[D]

Oh, my gosh. Definitely one of the first cookbooks I had on my shelf. I loved cookbooks from a really young age, and my mom had a bunch, you know, on her shelf in her kitchen. And then the ones that I was interested in that I, you know, I sort of started baking seriously around the age of 14 or 15. I guess when I was 14, it was. Was kind of still just for fun. By 16, I had a job in a bakery, and I was trying to slowly increase my cookbook collection. But, you know, you're 16 and you can't afford so many. One of my favorite tasks was to go to the local bookstore and sit on the floor and read different cookbooks until I could purchase them. But Joy of Cooking is one that was on my mom's shelf. I think I have a couple different additions on my shelf. I should have brought them in here so that I could. I could relay which editions I have. But I always loved the really big cookbooks. I think that there's something fun about that. And I worked for a publishing group that sort of published culinary textbooks. And so those were those really big books as well. And I just. There's something. I love the whole book process. I love cookbooks. There's just something special about the big book books to me. And, you know, they're so valuable on your shelf. You can turn to them for so many different reasons.

[B]

Yeah, I always love the big books, too. It feels like knowledge is here, you know, like you've got knowledge.

[D]

Yeah, either. Either big books or single subject books. Because not all single subject books are as big as those big ones. But that's what I loved so much about writing my PI book was I had so much to say, but I didn't have to waste a page on cake or cookies or anything else. I could just dive in so deep on pie.

[C]

That sounds refreshing. It'd be nice to actually drill down on one subject.

[B]

Yeah, we. We are definitely the generalists, but we have our personal favorites. But, yeah, the generalists. Do you remember any, like, favorite recipes from Joy that you would make or that your mom would make?

[D]

I hesitate to say that I couldn't name a specific recipe, but I know that we were making a lot of cookies and a lot of the baked goods in general. I would say it was definitely a source for some of those. Go to recipes and even some that, you know, my mom or I ended up sort of tweaking just a little bit, but it's still the recipe to enjoy. But we were a big cookie Family in general. I also remember when I was first testing pie doughs and pie everything, I made every single pastry dough I could find in every single book. You know, just trying to see different things. And. And so I. I'm also fairly familiar with all things dough.

[A]

I have a question for both of you guys, since you're often taking, like, these classic baking recipes, but then you're kind of thinking of ways to modernize them or make them your own. How do you, like, keep the heart and the soul of these classic recipes, but make them modern or make them in these new ways? Like, you mentioned bringing in this new squash variety. But what are other ways that you do that, like, make them new and fun?

[D]

I think one thing is the change of ingredients, because just like with the honey nut squash, things change with time. Also, sometimes something is expensive and you end up trying it with something else and realizing, oh, wow, it's really great with that too, and it kind of becomes its own thing. I also just think that tastes change. A lot of those classic recipes that I love, maybe we're lacking in acidity or we're a little too sweet or certain things. And I think that the biggest thing that I've noticed, even in the lifespan of my career, is how much more knowledgeable everybody is about food. And even just in the years that I've been in this industry, early in my career, when I would write about something, there was so often I would have to explain an ingredient or a technique. I find myself doing that significantly less these days. People are really open, and there are less rules in some ways. I think there's a lot of ways to make something new. And I also think with the Internet, there's so many versions of the classics that no one should be afraid to put a spin or a riff on it to bring it into the modern era.

[B]

Yeah, I feel the same. I would. I would echo what Aaron just said. And also, you know, one thing I've noticed, especially with Joy of Cooking recipes, is you might have an old recipe and, you know, maybe an ingredient was really expensive or not as commonly available. And so the recipe is really light on that ingredient, but you think that it would be better with more of that flavor, and so you just end up adding more. Like, I think a lot about this isn't a baking thing, but, you know, a lot of older Joy recipes, really skimpy on the garlic. Like, rub the pan with garlic and then throw it away. And I was like, what? Rub the pan? Like, no, we're putting all that garlic in there.

[C]

I mean, I know that garlic bulbs used to come in boxes, and so. And they were generally like, I guess that they were pricier, but I think that else. That. That also just kind of reflects Irma and Marian's taste when it comes to, you know, garlic flavor.

[B]

Yeah. German. German cooking. Not as heavy on the. Not as heavy on the garlic, for sure.

[C]

Well, and also, like, at least when it comes to the cake recipes, a lot of. A lot of, you know, the cakes in older editions of Joy had a much lighter texture.

[B]

And yeah, a lot of those old cake recipes in particular would have you separate the eggs and whip the egg whites and fold them in later. And we tested a bunch of them side by side, and I was like, you know, really? I like the texture better when it's not separated. Like, they're a little, you know, moister and more dense, but not in a bad way. So we just took out whipping the egg whites in a lot of those recipes because it's a lot of work and people hate doing it.

[A]

Easier for people to do, too.

[D]

Yeah, definitely one of the most annoying kitchen tasks because not everybody has two mixer bowls unless they're using a hand mixer. And if you're using a hand mixer, you have to stop and clean the beaters and all of these things. Yeah, but I'm the same. I really prefer a whole egg sponge. And in my new book, I have a whole egg sponge cake. It. The sponge cake. And it still gets so lofty. But I agree with you, that moisture, you don't even have to soak it. You could soak it, but you wouldn't have to. I think that's something that's slept on, so I have to echo that, too.

[B]

Awesome.

[C]

Tell us a little bit about this new book. Is it a single subject on cakes or.

[D]

No, it's not. It's a general baking book. It's going to be called the Building Blocks of Baking. One of my favorite things about my pie book, and I think one of the things that readers resonated with the most, was this mix and match ability that it had. It had 50 crusts, 40 different toppings, and then all of these different fillings. And the idea was build your own dream pie, even if it isn't one of the specific recipes in there. And I fell in love with that format. But it doesn't work for absolutely everything. This book attempts to sort of make a mix and match. Not attempts. Let's say that again, this book sort of mixes and matches a lot of recipes that are the building blocks. So things Like a meringue or a certain frosting or a ganache, and then shows you different ways to use it. And there are sort of these bigger recipes, something like almost like the mother sauces in cooking. So something like pate, a choux, or puff pastry dough, or even pudding, these kinds of base ideas. And I teach you those really in detail. And the idea is sort of, once you master that, look at all the other things you can make. And the idea is supposed to encourage creativity and allowing people to make their own versions of things, which I think sometimes people are still really scared to do with baking because baking has that reputation for being so by the book. And I just kind of want to give people the flexibility and freedom to do a little bit of that and customize their bakes, because that is such a fun experience. It's one of the best parts of baking at home is you can make it exactly the way you want it.

[B]

That's amazing because you. You answered a question I have that, you know, I. I often hear people say, well, I'm not really a baker. Baking is more of a science. It's so exact. And I'm always like, no, it's not. You can do whatever you want. Which, of course, you do need to know some things. But I think baking can be really playful and fun. And I love hearing that your next book is all about kind of choose your own adventure baking.

[D]

Yes, I. I agree with you completely. Of course, there are rules in baking, but a lot of chefs and cooks would argue there's rules in cooking too. They're just a little bit different. And I think the main difference in baking is sometimes you don't know if you got it right until the very end, which with cooking, sometimes you can adjust in the middle if you're not sure it's right. And I think that's something that scares people. But all of my books have really aimed for that. I even called my first book the Fearless Baker, specifically because I wanted to get rid of people's fear. I think so many cookbooks tell you how to do something, but they don't tell you why you're doing it. And that's sort of my area that I have to dive in deeper on everything. You don't need a huge crazy food science explanation. Just. Just instead of saying, be careful not to over mix it. Well, let's say what over mixing is. Let's say what it might look like or how long that might take or something to give people that reference. Even golden brown. I remember I had to define in the book and pie for myself. What do I mean when I say golden brown? Because some of these terms, I think it is subjective and especially someone trying something for the very first time. Just don't want them to be scared. I really load up on the visual cues.

[B]

I love that. I love a visual cue on a recipe.

[C]

I'm just thinking now, like in the end paper, on the end papers, you have like color swatches for like golden brown and I don't know what else exactly.

[D]

Like amber for the perfect caramel or.

[C]

Oh, yeah. The stages of carib. Of sugar syrup or caramel.

[B]

That would be good. Yeah. Maybe next. Next edition.

[C]

Maybe.

[D]

We're brainstorming here. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I have a personal pie question. Something that has been going on for I want to say the past couple years. I love making pie, first of all. And I used to own a little farmer's market baking company and I would make pot. I made these miniature, like, frangipan fruit tarts every week and these miniature quiches. They always sold really well. They did great. The crust was so easy. I was like, oh, anyone can make pie. This is so easy. However, in the past couple years, I feel like my pie dough mojo is gone. I'm really struggling. Like, I. And I don't know what's going on. I. My crusts shrink. They. The butter leaks out more than it should. And when they're finished baking, they're kind of tough. And I have paid so close attention to what I'm doing. I. I know not to over mix. I'm very careful. I like, make. Keep things really cold. Like, our house doesn't get that. That warm, so it shouldn't be a problem. And I never had that problem before. But for some reason, it's just. They're not turning out right. And it's kind of driving me crazy. Like, I've got to. I've got to figure this out. Do you have any suggestions? I'm here for you. Okay. Awesome.

[D]

I am so excited to talk about this. This is what I live for every November is the dozens and hundreds of emails and messages I receive with this very plea. There's a few different things to know, and the first thing is there's a lot of fallacies about PI that have been published over and over and over again to the point that lots of folks believe them. And in my opinion, there's a lot of untruths. So we're going to blow your mind here right now.

[B]

I'm ready.

[D]

One of the biggest things is because it's not Actually that possible to totally overwork pie dough. And this is something that has frustrated me for a really long time. You can work pie dough a pretty significant amount. You can work it even after mixing it and add some faux lamination and do all of these different things. The key is it just needs significant enough rest before you continue. So the shrinking issue most likely has nothing to do with you overworking it. It could do with some of these other things. The butter. When the butter melts out of the crust, that is one thing that can make it tough. And what will happen sometimes is the butter will melt out. And as the pie cools or sets a little out of the oven, it'll almost reabsorb the butter. So when you go to slice it, it's not greasy, it's not noticeably buttery, you know, anywhere. But it's tough like a cracker. You can't get a fork through it because the purpose of that butter was to help make the dough tender and it came out. And just because it's been absorbed back in after the crust is set, the tender factor is kind of gone. But another thing that some people don't realize is that an over hydrated pie dough can be tough like a cracker, like that too. So if you ever have felt that there's some stickiness these days, I would say watch out for over hydration more than over, over mixing. An over hydrated dough will obviously be a little bit sticky. I refer to something called the clean hand test, that after mixing, you should be able to press a clean, dry hand onto the dough and lift it up. And nothing should come up on your hand. No flour. It shouldn't be that dry. That flour comes up and it shouldn't be so wet that any kind of stickiness comes up. The butter melting out. There's a few different reasons that this happens. One is the size of the butterfly, the other is the shape of the butter. And the third is of course, the flour, the starch, how it's coating the butter. So the butter has to kind of have a protective coat of starch around it at all times to help prevent it from melting out of that crust. When we are tossing and mixing the pie dough and we start adding water, you can wash some of that starch coating away. The best way to keep it in there is just to make sure that the whole time you're mixing, you're tossing really well, keeping those butter pieces kind of moving. But I also, I add some of those layers, that faux lamination, which gives you an opportunity if Any of the butter has become exposed, we're rolling it out even thinner and we're folding it again. But that was my final question regarding the butter. Okay, what size is your butter that you're. What are, how are you mixing in the butter there?

[B]

I'm aiming for slightly different sized pieces, so some that are smaller, maybe, you know, pea sized, and then some that are a little larger. And I do, I like usually use my fingers and just flatten that butter into these sheets.

[D]

Yes, absolutely. And that's perfect. That's like exactly how I would do it as well. I say, typically for my flakiest dough, I want the largest pieces to be no larger than the size of walnut halves and the smallest pieces to be around the size of peas. Now, with that said, something that I wish I had written in my book that I did not. And I'm sure you guys have pains like that, though you get to correct it with the next edition is I reference walnut halves in peas. But I'm referring to if you put a walnut half or a pea on your work surface and looked at them from overhead. I'm referring to that two dimensionally, not three dimensionally. You don't want something actually as, as thick as a walnut half or as round as a pea. They need to be these flat shards of fat instead of anything three dimensional. And the more three dimensional they are, the bigger the risk of them melting out of the crust. So really taking the time to ensure that that flat sheet like you're describing, but also that's something that adding those folds really helps with because again, we're rolling it out even thinner than we were making it with our hands and folding it again. So I just think that there are so many areas where pie is like muscle memory. So it makes total sense that you used to make pie all the time and you felt that it was like no problem. And you just have to get your muscle memory back. And something tells me, you know, this is going to be. This is your time.

[B]

This is my time.

[D]

Muscle memory back.

[B]

I'm going to do it. I mean, I do want to make more pie. This is an excuse to make more pieces. That's what this is. Exactly.

[D]

That's what I'm about as well.

[A]

Kind of leads to one of the questions that I had for you, which is, is there a baking task that's very therapeutic and meditative for you? Because maybe for Megan it was making those pies and I think you should get back into it, but is there one for you that's really like calming and therapeutic for you.

[D]

Honestly, pie is my most therapeutic because I can just do it without thinking at all. It is, so to speak, to that point of muscle memory. It is in my muscles now. And my favorite day of the year that I get to make pie is the day before Thanksgiving when I'm baking for my family. Because it really is one of the very few days a year where I'm baking for fun and I'm not photographing it or videoing it or doing anything. It just. Just making something for the people I love. And don't get me wrong, I love making the videos. I love doing all of that stuff. It's. But it is nice to get back in there and just do it. Do it like that. Bread, I would also say, is my other, most meditative. I've worked in more bread bakeries than any other style of bakery in my career, and bread is just so wonderful. And the whole thing is so. The smell, the feel, all the different stages. And there's such an accomplishment at the end of. Look at this thing I made from, you know, three ingredients or four ingredients. It's just so cool.

[C]

Do you have a particular bread that's like your favorite to whip up at home or when the cameras are off?

[D]

I think it depends on kind of my mood. But I have a lot of what I would call, like, easier or even weeknight breads that are either breads that can be made and have a slow rise in the refrigerator, so I can kind of bring them out whenever. I have a pita dough recipe that's like that that I keep on hand a lot. A non dough that's kind of like that. And focaccia is one of the easiest ones to make, and everybody loves it. And I could turn it into kind of more like a pizza if I wanted. You know, I could do different things with it if it's in the fridge. And all of those are so easy to make that it's kind of especially just making something for fun. But any bread, you know, I'm never going to say no to any bread or an excuse to make bread.

[B]

You know. We're big fans of Rombauer Vineyards. They're sponsoring today's episode, actually. But honestly, their wines are fantastic, with so many joy of cooking dishes. My current favorite is their Sauvignon Blanc with our Khao Soi Gai recipe. That bright, crisp wine cuts right through the richness of the curry. It's perfect.

[C]

Oh, absolutely. Being Oregonians, we take our pinots seriously. We're excited about their new Pinot Noir, which pairs beautifully with our chicken jambalaya. The the wine has enough body to stand up to all those bold crayole flavors.

[B]

If you want to try these pairings yourself, head to ronbauer.com joy or use code joypod all caps for 15 off that's R O-M-B-A-U-E-R.com joy or code joypod.

[E]

All caps must be 21 to enjoy.

[B]

I would love for you to share some some wisdom. I was going to ask you about pumpkin pie, and you've already shared a little bit about using the honey nut squash and then your pie that uses the as a thickener. That sounds really interesting. Do you have any tips for like avoiding over baking where you get the crack in the pie?

[D]

Yeah, I think that jello jiggle is what we're looking for when you're baking any kind of custard pie. So the idea is that the outer about 2 inches or 5 cm ish of the pie should be set and don't move when you jiggle it, but if you jiggle the pan just gently, that that center part should have a little bit of that jello wobble. And that also is true for any kind of baked custard. So cheesecake, which in my opinion should actually be called cheese pie because it's baked custard in a crust. But we'll talk about that another time. And pecan pie would be that too, or sweet potato pie. A lot of the fall favorites that we really like to do can benefit from. And it's because that pie is retaining so much heat. So even if it looks perfectly set and it isn't cracked as it cools, it could form that crack. The other thing that I find is a lot of people are rushing with pie so much and good pie takes patience. And that whole adage of putting the pie out on the windowsill to cool, that doesn't work as well in deep winter or, you know, early winter, depending on where you are in the country. If there are these sudden temperature changes with something delicate like a custard, you're trying to cool it down really quickly because you were running late, it's not ready for your dinner, or whatever it is that can really encourage either cracking or also weeping, which is an unfortunate problem to have with a custard pie that you can easily avoid by just being gentle with it. Let it cool at room temperature.

[B]

Yeah, we don't want our pies to cry. Sounds bad.

[A]

No weeping.

[C]

Speaking of fall pies, we had Kate McDermott on the show a few weeks ago and. And she was recounting how she had tested different varieties of apples. I think it was like 18 apples that she baked just to, you know, kind of decide on which one was her favorite to use for apple pie. I was just curious if you had a favorite apple variety like, much like the Honey Nut would be.

[D]

Yes, I do. For years, the one that I was the most in love with for baking and I still do love and use a decent amount is honeycrisp Crisp. I think honeycrisp is really flavorful. It's juicy, it has a nice balance of sweet and tart. But my newer favorite that is actually, again, a newer hybrid that hasn't been around as long is the Cosmic Crisp. And the Cosmic Crisp is a hybrid of Honeycrisp and another apple called Enterprise, I believe. It's a very beautiful big red apple with little speckles on it. Starry. I think that's where the Enterprise comes in. It's a really, really lovely apple. Very juicy. So the. For me, I pre cook my apple pie filling so you can kind of control that thickness, but then you get all that really lovely flavor. And the other thing that's really nice about them is that they are not prone to oxidization. So if you're making something like a galette or something where the apples are going to be be seen, they're not gonna turn brown on you even if you leave it out. It's kind of incredible. They. Those flesh is very white and it stays white even if you leave it out on your counter for quite some time.

[B]

Whoa. Apple innovations. I feel like we've kind of trash talked the Cosmic Crisp.

[C]

Well, that was so many episodes ago. I mean, it might as well probably.

[B]

Didn'T have to bring it up, but.

[C]

I was lost to the past. And here you go.

[B]

Well, we had our friend, we mentioned, I think we just mentioned, like, oh, it's not our favorite or something. It was pretty mild criticism. But a friend of ours who's listening to the podcast, she was like, you're wrong about the Cosmic Crisp.

[D]

There's a cult following for the Cosmic Crisp. My mom, after I first made a pie with the Cosmic Crisp, she was saying, where can I get those apples? And at this point, I was still living on the east coast, and so I really didn't know what to advise her as to where to get them. But now I'm seeing them everywhere. I'm back in the Midwest and I see them all over and they're, I think I also really. I, in general, like an apple that keeps its shape, but Granny Smith is so flavorless to me that it's so wonderful that it keeps its shape. It is, but the tartness, and there's no sweetness. So it's just. I don't know, it's just never been my favorite. And I steer pretty clear of those, I confess.

[B]

Yeah, they're. They're pretty one note. Like, there's not. I think they can be good in a mix. Like, if you're. If you're mixing, they're great for the tartness and the shape holding capabilities, but they don't have a great flavor.

[D]

And both Honey Crisp and Cosmic Crisp really hold their shape well. And so I think that's the main reason I've always turned to those, is that they're juicy, flavorful, but also keep that shape, so I get that little bit of bite in my pie.

[B]

Can you talk about your Sturdy Pie challenge? I love this so much.

[D]

I would love to. The Sturdy Pie challenge was something I created to help kind of make the process of properly baking a pie fun, because, again, good pie takes patience. It takes a long time, and I think people can be intimidated by it easily. This was my party trick for years. I would bring a pie somewhere, and then I would, you know, go to cut it, and I would lift it out of the pie pan, and everybody at the party would gasp and be in awe. So it was something. I still get giddy about it almost every time I do it. It just feels, like, so impossible. But you make it possible. And it was actually my longtime assistant of many years and friend Katie Wayne, who said to me one day, this is a thing. You need to make this a thing. It's so much fun. And Katie was also a hand model, so she used to. We used to take these pictures of her holding my pies, you know, so delicately and, you know, just like a half a pie in her hand or a whole pie broken open. I mean, we just took these crazy pictures together that we loved. And the Sturdy Pie Challenge basically encourages other people to do the same. When they make a pie that is sturdy, they get to hold it up triumphantly. And if you check out that hashtag, you will see so many happy faces holding sturdy pies. And it's really about properly baking a pie, because I think that that is a challenge. A lot of people under bake their pies, and they have the soggy bottoms, and we don't want that. But I also think it solves a couple other purposes. A lot of People are scratching up their pie pans by slicing it right in the pie pan. It makes it easier to slice when you can take it out and put it on a cutting board. It's not as it's much easier to get even slices. So there's so many things. And not to mention, just as you were saying with your experiment, escarole pie, which sounded so delicious, you can eat it with your hands and you don't need. It's like you eat it like a slice of pizza. There's nothing more satisfying than eating like a mile high coconut cream pie. Like a slice of pizza and no fork. Just reckless abandon.

[C]

Oh, my God. That sounds really good right now.

[D]

Yeah, it does.

[B]

So we're both, we're all hungry. It's dinner time here.

[D]

I really should have made pie before we recorded this.

[B]

Well, I saw your, I saw some of your videos of taking pie to the airport and just, you know, handling man, handling woman. Handling this piece of pie in the airport. That is just such a. That's a great. That's a good move. Yeah.

[A]

I don't think I've ever properly made a pie because I've never made a pie that you could do that with. So I need, I need some practice and I'm going to follow your expert advice. I'm going to take your sturdy and.

[D]

Then I expect a picture.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm going to take your challenge and run with it.

[C]

Oh, speaking of soggy bottoms.

[D]

And.

[B]

Go in a few different directions.

[C]

Yeah, sorry, sorry. In the most wholesome direction possible. Do you have like a favorite material for pie pans?

[D]

Yes, metal is my absolute favorite. It's the most non stick. My favorite pie pan is from USA Pan. It retails for like 15 bucks. It's just a really great lightweight, bakes evenly nonstick. A great all purpose pan for people to have. I would say second would be a more glossy ceramic. So anything you wouldn't want anything that has any texture or it's matte, it needs to be kind of shiny or it'll be prone to sticking. And unfortunately, glass, I'm sorry, glass. You are my least favorite material. You can see yourself out. Another one that is lesser known and appreciated I feel like is cast iron. You don't see cast iron pie pans as often, but often sold in the camping section of like a sporting goods store or I'm sure you can find online or in a pinch, just bake it in a cast iron skillet. That is an incredible. Obviously drives a lot of heat to the bottom crust and does a Great job. And for a lot of people, especially on the holiday season, I say, don't forget about the aluminum pie pans. You don't have to worry about taking them home if you're visiting somewhere with the pie. And they actually bake really, really well because they're a little bit thinner, they tend to actually get that browned bottom crust a little easier than some others. So sometimes I even recommend when people are beginning and just starting out to just kind of play around with those.

[B]

That's good advice. I feel like I have a stack of glass. I have one metal pie pan that I love, but sometimes if I'm baking multiple pies, I have the glass ones too. So now I'm like, okay, I gotta have a plan for.

[D]

Well, that. Actually, since you have butter melting issues, that is one of the worst parts about glass. It doesn't heat up as quickly and it doesn't retain the heat in the same way. So what happens? Is it. If the butter starts to melt, instead of kind of the moisture evaporating, producing the steam that makes the flaky layers? Glass is one of the worst, unfortunately for this issue. And you'll see it sometimes because you can see through the glass. You'll see it almost like it's frying in its own butter and it's bubbling in there. That doesn't happen as much with the other metal materials.

[B]

I have seen exactly what you're talking about, and so I think that could be part of my problem. So now that I recall, when I was baking those little pies they were in, I was using those little metal ring molds directly on a baking sheet. So that's probably part of it.

[D]

Yeah, I mean, it really, it. It really helps with the browning, which helps with the set. And also that whole thing that moisture evaporating right at the beginning, it's sort of like oven spring with bread. It happens right at the beginning if the dough isn't cold enough, if the pan heats up really slowly, all of that can contribute to that butter melting.

[A]

Erin, you're like a pie detective. You're so good.

[D]

Just call me Sherlock Holmes of pie. I would take that nickname happily.

[B]

So each week we answer a caller question, and this week we're going to talk about budget friendly recipes. Dirk, can you read the question, please?

[E]

I love your show. I was recently furloughed, so any joy recipes for when money is tight?

[B]

This is a really good question and we have a lot of stuff written down to talk about, so we're gonna go quick. But we included a chapter in the most recent edition of Joy of Cooking called Streamlined Cooking. And this chapter was based on a book that Irma Rombauer wrote in the late 30s called streamlined cooking. And her book was more about using, like, convenience products, so, like, you know, prepared things that you could mix together and have dinner ready quickly.

[E]

Go ahead.

[C]

There was obviously a lot more women entering the workforce, and so, you know, less time. And then also there was new cool stuff, too. New, cool canned goods to use. So this was. This was her attempt to kind of capture the zeitgeist or. Yeah, the spirit of the times.

[B]

But also. So our chapter is not really about using prepared foods, but we took the spirit of that. What we think she was trying to do with that book, which was, you know, save people time and money and kind of just economize generally in the kitchen. And so our premise in the chapter is that cooking from recipes all the time can be really expensive and really wasteful. Because when you're always cooking from a recipe, you're finding the recipe, you're making your grocery list, you're going to the store, getting that stuff, making the one recipe, and then you have to do it all over again the next day. And if you have several recipes you want to make, that ingredient list or the grocery list can get really long, really fast, and really expensive. So basically, learning how to not always have to cook from a recipe is a way to economize money and time. But we also have a lot of. That's not something that you can just like, learn overnight and then suddenly be good at that. So that, that is just a thing to think about as you're, you know, thinking about how your meal planning and cooking just like maybe try to not always cook from recipes or start from what is on sale at the grocery store, versus, you know, ideally, I would love to make this thing. Well, let's see what's on sale first and then kind of go from there. And then also we have a section in that chapter that's called Cook for a Day, Eat for a Week. And it's basically ideas for. There are several menus to choose from, like roast chicken, roasted vegetables, some kind. I can't remember all the menus, but it gives you a menu and then ways to repurpose the leftovers. So if you roast a chicken, you can use that chicken to make a soup or a chicken salad or, you know, a million other things. And there are several examples like that that kind of teach you how you can cook one day and then use what you've already cooked, so you're economizing on time as well. And then I have so many. I have so many notes. We have a section on saving money in that chapter as well. Basically starting shopping deals, getting versatile ingredients instead of more niche ones. So one example we give is like buying a big tub of plain yogurt versus getting the little individual cups with the fruit inside, because you can still use that for breakfast. You just need jam or fruit. But then you can also use the yogurt in baking recipes. You can use it to make savory sauces for, like, salmon, or you can use it to top chili instead of sour cream.

[C]

Tzatziki and what have you. I mean, there's a lot of options when you are starting off with something that's kind of like, you know, adaptable. Yeah, let's see. I'm trying to think of things that you didn't cover. We do talk about, you know, I think that we. We both can, you know, recommend kind of shopping the bulk bins. But I feel like that's also maybe not just. It's not always going to be more economical to go to the bulk section that, you know, especially in certain stores.

[B]

But it does allow you to buy exactly what, how much you need versus a whole package of something that you might not use all of.

[C]

And it can work out really well for spices. You know, like, they're not all bulk sections will have, like, you know, spices in bulk. But if they do, that can be a good deal. But, you know, it's really hard to generalize because, you know, prices are crazy right now. It's really hard to predict, like, what people are going to be encountering at the grocery store these days.

[B]

One tip from my mom that I just have observed her doing, you know, when we were growing up, she would buy any meat that was on discount. She would buy it and just shove it in the freezer. And then whenever, you know, for a rainy day, we would just have this, you know, pork shoulder, or we'd have steaks sometimes. And it was just stuff that she found on sale. She didn't need to use it right then, but she would save. She would freeze it for later. So that was, I think, a really good strategy, especially for meat, which is so expensive. And also I've noticed that when I'm buying, like, chicken, if I buy packaged chicken that's like, prepackaged thighs or breasts or whatever, it's usually a lot more expensive than if I go up to the butcher counter and ask them for, like a pound of chicken breast, it's cheaper by the pound. I don't know if this is the case at every store, but at our local like chain grocery store, it's usually cheaper to just go up to the counter. This is not like a fancy butcher counter situation, but it's usually cheaper to just ask for it. And then you know, thinking about cooking with parts that are not as expensive, like chicken drumsticks are usually cheaper than chicken breast or chicken thigh. So maybe just tweaking kind of what part of the animal you're eating. And then one of the things I wrote down was learn to bake bread because it's so cheap to make bread. And like bread is surprisingly expensive, even the not so nice loaves. So if you can learn to bake like a really basic loaf which is, you know, two, three ingredients. Salt, well, I mean four if you count yeast. But you know, very minimal ingredients, very affordable to make. And then you can use that to stretch meals, make sandwiches, all kinds of stuff. And then I wrote down a bunch of recipes that are enjoy that we recommend if you're on a budget. Well, some of them are very bean based because beans are such a great affordable food.

[C]

I mean that is one generalization that I think we can safely make is that, you know, beans are still, beans are still relatively affordable. I mean even compared to fancy beans from Rancho Gordo are, are pretty economical.

[A]

But that was going to be my suggestion was beans because we have a lot of recipes on our website that you can do like black beans, beans. And I do them like the whole bag. I just make it at once in a pot in the oven. And then I'll use those beans to, to make like black bean tacos, black bean soup, black bean burgers. And so we'll have those throughout the week. But then you, you know, bought a bag of beans maybe for a dollar. I mean you can get a bag of black beans sometimes at the like discount store for a dollar and then you can make all those things with it with very few other ingredients. And that's what I really liked what you were saying where sometimes when you do follow a recipe, well, our pantry will have so many things in it where we maybe we just use this one little portion of it. And then I'm like, what am I going to do with all this stuff? And so I feel like sometimes I just need really simple recipes like in the end. So we tried to do a lot of recipes on our website where you just like there's just like a few ingredients where you would just have you would just take the black beans and make a taco with it, you know, like, just so easy. And I think that's a really good tip for people is like. Like, make one big pot of something and find ways to make a bunch of meals with it.

[B]

Yeah. And I feel like, you know, beans sound so simple, and they are, but John and I have kind of joked for years now about writing a cookbook called the Rice and Beans with a Thousand Faces, because rice and beans, I feel like every culture, any culture, that you're interested in the food and you want to cook more, there are going to be rice and bean dishes, pretty much. And so you don't have to be. It's not boring. Like, you can do all kinds of stuff with rice and beans. But I had written down chana masala on page 217, dal on page 218, minestrone on page 85. I love minestrone because you can use kind of whatever vegetables you have around. And it has beans. Again, garlic Soup on page 91, which is great. And one of John's contributions to the last. I mean, one of many, but.

[C]

Well, there are two versions. The one that I think that you're wanting to recommend is where you actually are frying the bread. Yeah, that is a really, really tasty version. The one that I, you know, I spent a little bit of time in Spain, and it's more of a thick pap.

[B]

It sounds for food.

[C]

No, I. I would recommend the fried version. It's really good.

[B]

Yeah. You fry pieces of bread in olive oil, and then you make your soup, which just has. It's just tons of garlic and chicken broth, essentially. And then you poach and you poach eggs in the soup soup. And then you kind of serve the. The soup ladled over the. The toasted bread with the egg on top. So it's. It's very simple, like homey kind of peasant food. Really good. Yeah.

[C]

And eggs are not super crazy this week.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, I also had haloski on page 300, which is just cabbage and egg noodles. Mujadara.

[C]

You forgot butter.

[B]

What?

[C]

Huluski.

[B]

Oh, yeah, butter. Cabbage. Lots of butter.

[C]

No, no, lots of butter cabbage. It is so satisfied. I mean, let me just take a moment to say how satisfying. Very satisfying that is. It's really good.

[B]

Erin, did you have any suggestions?

[D]

Well, I was going to say, when you were talking about beans, one of my little hacks is also tofu as one of my primary proteins. It also lasts so long, the shelf life of it is is so huge. So again, when you're thinking of things to kind of keep on hand that aren't going to spoil and that you can use in a bunch of different ways, I especially like, you know, when you can buy tofu in a bulk situation, like maybe at one of those larger stores that sell big boxes of things. That's something that I always have in, in my fridge and it comes into play so often and so handy.

[C]

Have you tried freezing tofu?

[D]

I have, but you know, I do find that it had. It takes a little, I think sometimes it depends a little bit on the brand, but I have had success doing it. Usually I'm able to eat it before I need to freeze it and it has such a long shelf life. Hilariously, of course, my freezers are just full of baked goods. I like don't actually use them to store anything that I could be cooking with, even though I cook a lot.

[B]

Yeah. And tofu is also great for, you know, crumbling up. And if you want to stretch a little bit of meat to go further, you can mix it in with meat. I think that's an underrated use is combining the two.

[C]

Mapo tofu, definitely one of our favorites to whip up on, on a weeknight. And it's just like you said, it's, it's stretching out like just a little bit of ground ground pork or beef.

[B]

Yeah. And on that note, this week's Joy Scouts recipe is a bean forward dish. We're doing black eyed peas and greens on page 270. 16 it. This is something I kind of associate more with New Year's, but we're just going to go for it now cuz it's, it's so good and it's the season. It does call for a ham hock, which is weirdly hard to find in the Pacific Northwest. Like in the South. They're everywhere and probably, I don't know, in the Midwest it seems like they're probably just everywhere. But here, depending on the grocery store, you may not find them at all. And the ones you get are really sad. So, so sad. Ham. A good sub is a smoked turkey leg or drumstick, which you can often get, or another kind of hack that I was thinking of. And you don't have to add ham at all. It's still going to be good if you don't add ham. But you could add an unflavored, a packet of unflavored gelatin just to get some of that body that you would get from simmering the ham hock and the all that cartilage and the bone really add some night body to this dish. So adding just a packet of unflavored gelatin and then stirring in some diced ham, like chunks of ham would kind of scratch the same itch. So if John, did you have something to add?

[C]

You're scratching an itch with some, you know, some cartilage. I don't know, it's just funny. These are rough times.

[B]

Yes. So if you make the black eyed peas and greens, tag us on Instagram at the Joy of Cooking. We would love to see what you make. And if you have a cooking question or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. We would love to hear from you.

[E]

Oh hello. I just wanted to take a moment to tell you about an easy way to enhance your meals, whether they are a healthy vegan grain bowl or that late night snack we'll pretend didn't happen the next day. And that easy way is Marshall's hoats sauce. For 15 years, chef and cookbook author Sarah Marshall has been hand making and bottling these delicious sauces. She works directly with local farmers and highlights the lovely flavors of fresh seasonal produce. They're gluten free, there are no additives, dyes, waxes or binders and they have mouth watering combinations like serrano ginger, lemongrass or habanero carrot curry or even whiskey smoked ghost which was featured on Hot Ones. So head on over to marshallshotesauce.com that's Marshall's H A U T E S a u c e.com and see all the available sauces and spice blends. Oh, that's right. Sarah's created spice packets by dehydrating and freeze drying actual produce so you can impart flavor to your food with more vegetables. But that's a story for another day. Find all of these delicious [e-mail] and entertainment. Haute joy. That's one word capital H A U T E capital J.J. o Y one word at checkout for 20% off. That's haute joy at checkout for 20% off. And now back to the show.

[B]

Can you please read or play our next caller question?

[E]

Dirk, do you know of any online resources or apps for canning safety? I want to send them to a co worker who recently started canning. I want to make sure they're being safe since they started gifting it to everyone in the office.

[B]

Oh, this is a spicy question. But yes, we will definitely answer that next week and we have the perfect guest to talk about it. So looking forward to talking about canning. All right, what's everybody doing this week? What are you up to, Sarah?

[A]

Well, I went to a book reading at Vivian this week, and I got the book called Family Tie by Arnold Mint and Kat Thompson. And so I'm gonna cook from that this week. Nice. I got it last week and then I went on a trip so I couldn't cook from it. So we're gonna make a bunch of stuff from that and Dirk's very excited about it.

[B]

We're gonna cook a lot of Thai food. What about you, John?

[C]

Well, as you probably noticed, we got a big delivery of not huge, but a sizable delivery of tasso ham and andouille sausage from Wayne Jacobs Smokehouse in Louisiana. The size of the order was not necessary because I was just. Just trying to get some for the gumbo that we're taking to Thanksgiving this year. Kind of a non traditional contribution, but I'm kind of looking forward to all of the other ways that we're going to use the andouille and the tasso.

[B]

You're saying you ordered way more than you need for the project we're doing?

[C]

It keeps.

[B]

That never happened.

[C]

It really keeps well, so, you know, lots of meals there.

[B]

I am really excited about that gumbo, though. That's going to be a highlight, I think, of our. Our. Of our Thanksgiving this year. I'm enjoying having a couple of weekends with like nothing on the calendar because it gives me an excuse to just bake stuff or make things all day. And so I'm gonna make a bunch of holiday fruitcakes. And before you turn up your nose, my fruitcakes are really awesome. And I'm just gonna put that out there. They're really good. I usually just use a combination of really good dried fruit, so apricots, candied ginger, depends on what I have. And, like, golden raisins. So I don't really use the brightly colored fruit.

[A]

What is that anyway?

[B]

You know, it's supposed to be cherries. I don't know. I don't even know. Sometimes like the green stuff.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

What's the green stuff?

[B]

Pineapple.

[D]

They're candied glace, so they're. They're done in a style that's very traditional. But the way we do that here is not the traditional French, you know, beautiful way of doing it. I do think fruitcake gets a bad rap, though.

[B]

It does. It can be so good. And if you put, like, really good, you know, toast, make sure to toast the nuts. And put lots of toasted nuts in there. And then I like to make mine so far ahead of time because I wrap them in flour sack towels and then douse them with liquor so they're just kind of soaked in alcohol. And they get better as they age. So I've had these fruitcakes in the fridge for up to a few years and they stay really good and they even improve over time time. So they're really good gifts and people seem to like it. So I'm here to rehabilitate fruitcake's reputation. What about you, Erin? What are you making this week?

[D]

Well, this weekend I have two of my niblings, my brother's children coming over for a slumber party and we do a little bit of baking. And one of the things that I've been making lately are just very simple puff pastry, pastry shapes and kind of shaping it in different ways and this new way, it's so easy, but they come out looking like little bows. And so I sort of just put cinnamon sugar in the middle or some kind of spice sugar. One time I did it with cardamom and lemon and you make this little shape, they look so fancy. But it's such a simple thing and it'll be fun for them to kind of play with the shapes, I think.

[B]

So fun. And before we wrap, where can listeners follow you?

[D]

You can find out so much more about me on my website, erinjeanmcdowell.com on my YouTube channel, which is under my name, Aaron Jean McDowell. And of course you can find me on social media, on Instagram, I'm @emcdowell. And on tick tock, I'm @ Aaron Jean.

[B]

McDowell. And we'll put all of that in our show notes so people can easily find.

[D]

You. Yay. Thank you so.

[B]

Much. Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram at the Joy of Cooking. Stay tuned for next week where we'll talk about online canning safety resources. And don't forget to make this week's recipe, black eyed peas and greens on page 216. Call in with questions, hopes, history or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's.

[A]

503-395-8858. And we could not do this without our fantastic team at Joy of Creation production House. Thanks to today's producer, Dirk Marshall and our audio engineer, Haley Bowers. If you love the stories we bring you each week, please consider supporting us on Patreon. As an independent media company, your support is absolutely essential. It allows us to continue creating high quality professional episodes that amplify the voices of women, small business owners, writers, artists and creatives and keep their stories free from commercial pressure. By becoming a Patreon member, you're not just supporting us, you're investing in the future of independent Media. Please visit patreon.com thejoyofcreationproductionhouse to join our community.

[B]

Today. Thank.

[A]

You. Thank you for listening and supporting our podcast Dreams.