Holly Ong: A Casual Chat About Crab

Summary

The Joy of Cooking Podcast: Episode Summary

Title: Holly Ong: A Casual Chat About Crab
Release Date: June 13, 2025
Host/Authors: Megan Scott, John Becker, Dirk Marshall
Guest: Holly Ong, Co-founder of Sibeho

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1. Introduction

Dirk Marshall opens the episode with a warm welcome to listeners, briefly introducing himself as a guest host and sharing his enthusiasm for "Zoodles" (zucchini noodles). Megan Scott and John Becker join him, each providing a lighthearted glimpse into their culinary preferences and personalities. The hosts engage in a playful banter about pan juice versus gravy, setting a friendly and relaxed tone for the discussion.

Notable Quote:
Dirk Marshall [00:00]: "We're glad you joined us at the table."

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2. Guest Introduction: Holly Ong

The hosts introduce Holly Ong, co-founder of Sibeho, a Singaporean food startup based in Portland, Oregon. Holly shares her journey from the corporate world to entrepreneurship, emphasizing her passion for creating community through food. She reminisces about her childhood memories of cooking with her grandmother and highlights how these experiences inspired her to bring authentic Singaporean flavors to Portland.

Notable Quote:
Holly Ong [10:53]: "It's very lucky that we can do that, especially here in Poland."

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3. Cooking Updates: What Each Host Has Been Cooking

The conversation shifts to recent culinary endeavors each host has undertaken:

• Dirk Marshall discusses his role as a recipe tester for his wife Sarah Marshall's Substack, "Sauce Me Up." He shares his adventures with making innovative grilled cheese sandwiches and shawarma-spiced salmon, appreciating the flexibility of various cookbooks.

  Notable Quote:
  Dirk Marshall [02:45]: "We made that, and then I also got out the big night cookbook... that was super delicious as well."

• Megan Scott talks about her successes with pan juices and stewed okra, demonstrating her knack for balancing flavors and textures in her dishes.

  Notable Quote:
  Megan Scott [01:01]: "I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night."

• John Becker shares his experience frying chicken outdoors, seasoning it with homemade Cajun seasoning, and experimenting with various flavor profiles.

  Notable Quote:
  John Becker [05:16]: "Can't really over-season the dredge. It takes so much salt to do it."

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4. Exploring Singaporean Sambals

Holly delves into the heart of her culinary expertise—sambals. She explains the versatility of sambals in Singaporean cuisine, differentiating them from other condiments like sriracha. Holly details the three types of sambals her company produces:

• Boom Sambal: Featuring fermented shrimp paste, it adds a deep umami flavor and is perfect for dishes like nasi lemak and grilled cheese sandwiches.

  Notable Quote:
  Holly Ong [25:03]: "Boom sambal... creates that bold flavor without you actually spending a lot of time in the kitchen."

• Tangy Sambal: Vinegar-based, ideal for Hainanese chicken rice and seafood dishes like oysters.

• Green Sambal: Offers a bright, acidic profile that complements grilled meats and avocado toast.

Holly emphasizes the importance of sambals as "cheat sauces" that enhance flavor effortlessly, allowing busy individuals to enjoy home-cooked meals without extensive preparation.

Notable Quote:
Holly Ong [24:57]: "Sambal is like a very good cheat sauce in your kitchen."

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5. Cooking Live Crabs: Techniques and Tips

The discussion shifts to the intricacies of cooking live crabs, a central theme of the episode. Holly provides a comprehensive guide on selecting and preparing live crabs, particularly Dungeness crabs, emphasizing the importance of choosing crabs that are firm and heavy.

Key Points:

• Selecting Crabs: Look for crabs with a firm body and active claws.

  Notable Quote:
  Holly Ong [33:09]: "Make sure that the body is firm. If it doesn't feel full and heavy, it's likely that it ate through its reserve."

• Humane Cooking Methods: Holly advocates for steaming crabs rather than more invasive methods like using chopsticks to wriggle them. She describes her method of steaming the crabs in a tamale or pasta pot, allowing them to cook gently and retain their natural flavors.

  Notable Quote:
  Holly Ong [34:32]: "I do a slight steam in the pot... then I walk away for a while."

• Maintaining Flavor: Holly highlights the importance of capturing the flavorful juices released during cooking, likening them to chicken broth for enhancing other dishes.

  Notable Quote:
  Holly Ong [36:42]: "You start breaking it apart and then I always have a bowl underneath it to catch the liquid, because that's... the most yummy part."

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6. Creative Uses of Sambal and Crab

Holly shares anecdotes about unexpected ways customers have used her sambals, such as glazing bacon with Boom sambal for a sweet and umami-rich flavor. She encourages experimentation, mentioning that sambals can elevate a variety of dishes, from grilled cheese sandwiches to avocado toast.

Notable Quote:
Holly Ong [29:54]: "She said, yeah, we glaze our bacon with it. It's now maple glazing... a lot of umami because of the fermented shrimp paste."

Dirk shares his interest in making sauces, tying back to the episode's focus on enhancing dishes effortlessly.

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7. Recipe of the Week: Crab Cakes

As the episode nears its conclusion, Megan introduces the "Crab Cakes" recipe of the week, highlighting its versatility and the different types of crab that can be used. She provides tips for pairing the crab cakes with a Creole remoulade sauce, enhancing the dish's flavor profile.

Notable Quote:
Megan Scott [51:50]: "Highly recommend serving that with the Creole remoulade sauce on page 564."

John Becker humorously notes that live crabs should not be used for crab cakes to avoid wasting their flavor and effort, directing listeners to alternative recipes in the cookbook.

Notable Quote:
John Becker [52:50]: "If you do have access to live crabs, please do not make crab cakes out of them. That is a waste of money and a waste of effort."

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8. Listener Questions and Tips

The hosts address listener questions about cooking live crabs, sharing practical methods for dispatching crabs humanely. They discuss various techniques, including freezing crabs to "put them to sleep" before cooking and alternative methods like using clove oil to anesthetize them.

Notable Quote:
Megan Scott [44:02]: "He says they start walking backwards and then they stop moving, and that's when you get them and then you cook them because they're basically asleep."

Dirk humorously reflects on the practicality of these methods, adding a light-hearted element to the discussion.

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9. Closing Remarks and Future Topics

As the episode wraps up, the hosts share their upcoming culinary plans and tease future topics, including a deep dive into sauces. They encourage listeners to try the featured recipes, engage with the podcast on social media, and participate by sharing their own cooking stories and questions.

Notable Quote:
Megan Scott [58:55]: "Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review."

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Conclusion

This episode of "The Joy of Cooking Podcast" offers an engaging blend of personal anecdotes, practical cooking advice, and cultural insights into Singaporean cuisine, particularly focusing on the versatile use of sambals and the art of cooking live crabs. Holly Ong's expertise and passion enrich the conversation, providing listeners with valuable tips and inspiring them to explore new flavors and cooking techniques in their own kitchens.

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Follow Us:

• Website: joyofcooking.substack.com
• Instagram: @joyofcooking
• Subscribe & Review on your preferred podcast platform.

Recipes Mentioned:

• Crab Cakes: Page 358
• Creole Remoulade Sauce: Page 564
• Singaporean Chili Crab Recipe: Page 359

Special Mentions:

• Holly’s Website: cbejo.com
• Sibeho: sibeho.com

Transcript

[Dirk Marshall]

Sa hello and welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for a discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of the Joy Cooking cookbook, kitchen victories, misadventures, and most importantly, what we're cooking and eating right now. We're glad you joined us at the table. I'm Dirk Marshall, guest host, fanboy to the authors of the Joy of Cooking. And at risk of losing any remaining culinary cred, I'm a hardcore into Zoodles.

[Megan Scott]

Wow. I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night, and I'm on a mission to get people to eat okra raw.

[John Becker]

Good luck. It's delicious. I'm John Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook, and I am a pan juice enthusiastic.

[Megan Scott]

Pan juice?

[John Becker]

Yeah. More than gravy. I. I would go for pan juice over gravy.

[Megan Scott]

I know we discussed this last night. The night before last.

[John Becker]

Yeah, the night before last.

[Megan Scott]

And then you made your. The pan juices really sour and I couldn't.

[John Becker]

I thought that they were delicious.

[Megan Scott]

I generally agree with you, though. More concentrated pan juices are just more concentrated gravy.

[John Becker]

It's like unpremeditated gravy. You need gravy if you're going to be putting it on something else, you know, like, what is it? Mashed potatoes.

[Megan Scott]

Potatoes. What do people put gravy on? Yeah. So the reason I brought up eating okra raw is because we had some recently. I made stewed okra and tomatoes to go with some fried chicken that we made, but we had a bunch left over. And it's just delicious raw. It's crunchy and it's not slimy. And you dip it in stuff.

[Dirk Marshall]

It's not a vegetable. I've had here often, and so I think I've only had the worst versions, which are usually very slimy.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah. Even in the stewed okra and tomatoes that I made, it wasn't. The okra definitely thickened the sauce, but I didn't think. I didn't consider it slimy, did you?

[Dirk Marshall]

Are you on the spot?

[John Becker]

No, no, it was. It was great.

[Megan Scott]

I like. That's why I like okra. It's like a vegetable and a thickener of sauces. What have you been cooking this week, Dirk?

[Dirk Marshall]

Oh, man. So. So my wife, Sarah Marshall, started a substack called Sauce Me up, and I'm her recipe tester. Just like when she did her cookbook. So I've been making a lot of sauces and the dishes that kind of go with those sauces. So one of those things was a grilled cheese that I've never made this way. So you put the bread, both sides buttered in the pan.

[John Becker]

No mayonnaise, right?

[Dirk Marshall]

Nope.

[Megan Scott]

They don't have mayonnaise in their house.

[John Becker]

Sometimes it's left here, though.

[Dirk Marshall]

Yeah, no. Once that side's browned, you turn it, then you cheese it.

[Megan Scott]

Okay.

[Dirk Marshall]

And you do both sides at the same time like that, and then you combine it.

[Megan Scott]

Okay. So you're, like, browning both sides of the bread, but when you flip them, then you put the cheese on.

[Dirk Marshall]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

And then you put them together, you.

[Dirk Marshall]

Combine it, and then you have a grilled cheese sandwich that's, like, crunchy all the way through, and it was super good.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that sounds delicious.

[Dirk Marshall]

Yeah, I loved it. So we made that. And then I also got out the big night cookbook, and I made a shawarma spiced salmon with the quick yogurt, flatbreads, and a little salad. And that was super delicious as well.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that sounds really good. I haven't made anything out of that cookbook yet, but I've got a bunch of flags stuck in it.

[Dirk Marshall]

That's how so many of the cookbooks. Yeah. And so I just picked one and was like, this is the one today.

[John Becker]

So there needs to be, like, really, really visible danger flag. Like, need to make this now.

[Dirk Marshall]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

I don't know. How do you prioritize? Do you have, like, color coded flags?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, you get a different color and you use. You mark that one as the, like, serious one.

[John Becker]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

You have to make sense.

[John Becker]

You do that. But I don't think that you really have any rhyme or reason.

[Megan Scott]

No, I don't.

[John Becker]

You think, oh, I'm gonna have this color now?

[Dirk Marshall]

I just use shreds of paper, honestly. And this time, our daughter's a fan of this shawarma sauce that we got in New York. And so anything that's shawarma, there's even a shawarma spot that she likes to get food from. So I knew this salmon would be a hit. She wasn't that hungry, so she didn't, I think, even try it. But it was all a for effort, I think. So pat myself on the back for.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Dirk Marshall]

Good.

[Megan Scott]

Good job. You did good.

[Dirk Marshall]

Thank you.

[Megan Scott]

What about you, John?

[John Becker]

I fried some chicken, like you mentioned. It was nice weather, so did it outside.

[Megan Scott]

That's the way to do it. If you have a little camp Stove or like a propane stove to fry the chicken outside.

[John Becker]

Yeah, that is the trick is to not fry inside, but buttermilk marinade. Kind of our standard recipe where, you know, it's like a flour cornstarch dredge that I think I. Yeah, I subbed some, like, Cajun seasoning for the salt.

[Megan Scott]

You really can't over season the dredge. No, it takes so much salt to do it.

[Dirk Marshall]

Do you do your own Cajun seasoning or do you just have, like. Just a quick.

[John Becker]

We have done our own Cajun seasoning, but we have been gifted, like, gigantic bottles of Slap Ya Mama. Like, Cajun seasoning.

[Dirk Marshall]

Oh, my.

[John Becker]

And so, yeah, I was like, oh, this is an opportun to.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I gotta use it.

[John Becker]

Go through some of this Cajun seasoning. They have a few different blends, and this one has, like, a ton of white pepper in it. And it's like, not quite as spicy, I think, as the other ones, but it's really, really tasty.

[Dirk Marshall]

Yeah. Did they all involve mama slapping?

[John Becker]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Neither of our mothers were present.

[John Becker]

Can't really speak to that.

[Megan Scott]

Seems rude, but I made biscuits, and because it's just the two of us that we had, and we had so many biscuits.

[Dirk Marshall]

They looked amazing.

[Megan Scott]

They were really good. The bottom got really crispy. I made strawberry shortcake with leftover biscuits because now strawberries are finally in season and they're so good. So we had the strawberries, and then I made whipped cream. But I. So I. I bought this little jar of pistachio paste. It's like sweetened pistachio butter, basically. So good. And I just added some of that to the whipping cream as I was whipping it and to make, like, a pistachio whipped cream. That was so good. That sounds amazing. You could eat that on its own. It was delicious.

[John Becker]

It was really good with the strawberries.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, yeah. Pistachio and strawberries.

[Dirk Marshall]

You also did a harissa butter that I was asking about.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, John made that, right?

[John Becker]

Yeah, no, it was. That was a recipe test for my other job. It was like a harissa compound butter. You just let the butter sit out until it's nice and soft, and then it was harissa. That one had, like, smoked paprika as well. And I had used, like, this harissa. I'm trying. I cannot remember the brand, but it is. It is not like a common brand. It was, like, really nice, though. And actually that one was kind of smoky, too. It had lemon juice in it. Yeah, it was really, really good with. Put it on grilled corn.

[Dirk Marshall]

You did that Serrano butter before. So you're kind of my Butterman John.

[Megan Scott]

The Butterman Butterman John Butterman Becker.

[John Becker]

I will try to live up to this new title.

[Megan Scott]

We also made a couple days ago our recipe of the week, our Joy Scouts recipe of the week, which was grandma style pan pizza on page 600. And that turned out really well. We did. We topped ours with Italian sausage and those delicious Castelvetrano olives and some big scoops of ricotta and Calabrian chilies. But yeah, it's delightful and super. So easy.

[Dirk Marshall]

It's not like focaccia y.

[Megan Scott]

No, it's not thick. It's pretty. The crust is, I would say, fairly thin.

[John Becker]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like what, three quarters of an inch maybe?

[Megan Scott]

No, not even half.

[John Becker]

Fine.

[Megan Scott]

But yeah, I would say the main tip, after remaking the recipe, the main tip I would give people is to, you know, when you stretch it, the dough out in the pan, it wants to spring back on itself and contract. But if you spread it out and then cover it and let it sit for 10 minutes and then come back and stretch it again, I think I did that three times to let it relax and fully cover the bottom of the pan. That's, that's the key. So don't be in a big old rush.

[John Becker]

Yeah, I mean we talk about that in the recipe, but I think that we just were like, just do it once.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I did it multiple times. I did. I think I did it three times because I. But I was being a little, I was being a little obsessive about it. You could be less, you know, type A about it and just bake it imperfectly, but I can't do that.

[John Becker]

That's big of you. To give you to say there's not.

[Dirk Marshall]

A lot of parenting terms in baking, but we call that a timeout, basically. Three timeouts.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Give the dough a timeout.

[Dirk Marshall]

What do you think about how you're behaving? And then we'll regroup, relax your gluten.

[Megan Scott]

So please try the recipe. It's on page 616. If you do make it, please tag us on Instagram hejoyofcooking and let us know what you think.

[Holly Ong]

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[Megan Scott]

This week we would like to welcome guest Holly Ong to the table. Holly Ong is the co founder of Sibeho, a Singaporean food startup here in Portland, Oregon. In 2019, she left the corporate world to pursue entrepreneur possibilities and follow her passion in creating community and making people happy through food. One of her earliest food making memories has her at age 5 or so sitting on her grandma's kitchen floor de fluffing chestnuts for Ama's rice dumpling for the Dragon Boat Festival. These days, Holly delights in sharing a taste of Singapore through recreating her childhood multicultural food experience and making award winning products, all proudly crafted in Oregon for foodies locally and across the nation. Holly, welcome to the show.

[Holly Ong]

Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor to be on your show.

[Megan Scott]

It's so great to have you. And I will go ahead and spill the beans. But before we started recording, you made a very delicious dish for us to try. Could you talk a little bit about what you made?

[Holly Ong]

When Sarah said that you guys were doing the podcast, I went, sure, I would love to be on it and talk about it because I geek out over like books that are so well researched and written with all the food things inside that I love to read. And I said, shall I bring a crab? Can I make Singapore chilli crab? Sarah said, sure. And then I had to follow up. Is everybody okay? Because I cook with live crabs. It's going to be moving.

[Megan Scott]

And she said, yeah, yeah, we're good with crabs.

[Holly Ong]

It went to a very good crab heaven.

[Megan Scott]

It did. It was very delicious. It was very tasty.

[John Becker]

Saucy, saucy heaven.

[Megan Scott]

Yes. And we're going to, we're going to get into talking about crabs in more detail in a second. But before we get into that, what have you been cooking and eating this week that you're really excited about?

[Holly Ong]

Actually, funnily enough, because it was my birthday last week, so my parents are in town visiting from Singapore, so we actually had crabs too. I've Been eating a lot of crabs. The Dungeness crabs in Oregon is special for us because it's so good. And it has a special place with Sibe Ho, our brand, because that was the start of when we had the kind of like the eureka aha moment, because I was down on the coast with Pat near Manzanita, and I remember we bought some crabs. And then I asked her, hey, what do you want to do with this? Because here, I mean, I learned to eat seafood with butter and lemon. And we're like, okay, we can eat that, but surely, because we had a lot of crabs, right? And she said, can you make chili crab? And I was like, yeah, I can make my mom sambal. And then that kind of started it because there was a little shop, like I think it was called the Little Big Apple or something like that there. And then they had kind of the things we needed. And I had my mom sambal on me as well because I kind of travel with it. Especially when you go to beach houses, right? So you cook, because there's not always restaurants that you can go to here. So we made that, and then we're like, oh, do you think anybody want to eat this here? And that kind of started down the journey of creating Singaporean food here in Portland, Oregon. Because in a lot of times, Singapore, like, if you look at a map, the font for Singapore is actually bigger than a dot as our country. And people get confused because ethnically, when you look at me, I am Chinese, but my favorite breakfast is Indian. And then when I tell people that, they get confused. And, like, what do you mean by that? Yeah, I eat, like, my favorite is roti prata or the plaster, the one with the egg. And I like to eat dal, right? And then it's like, so you can talk forever. I keep trying to tell people things, but the fastest, easiest way is to cook for people, right? So we started doing that, and we hosted supper clubs for almost a year. And then Covid, and then we kind of had a coming out party. And that's when I first met Sarah via gdn, who helped us organize that. And we cook all these flavors and food that we grew up with. Some of them are like festive food, some of them are stuff, but basically things that don't really exist because Chinese food, like, I learned to eat American Chinese food, and I love General Charles chicken, but it doesn't exist in our powder world. The genre itself is special, right? And our Chinese food is also different because we are national immigrants. We're third generation, fourth Generations. And like, Hainanese chicken rice in Singapore is different from Hainan. If you go back there, now they have it. But it was created by Hainanese immigrants who came to Singapore. Right. So, like, we can talk a lot, but always I found the easiest way is even when we're sampling at our farmers market, I just try to get people to taste it first. Because once you taste it, then you. Your. Your taste buds, it opens the aperture in your mind. And then I tell them, oh, I. I actually don't eat Singaporean food every day. Surprise, surprise. Like, I eat grilled cheese sandwich. Today I learned about another style. Right. But I'm like, I'm a Mayo grilled cheese person, but I put sambal in mine. Right.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. I was gonna say, I bet the sambal is very good in a grilled cheese sandwich.

[Holly Ong]

Yeah. So, I mean, it's like marrying the best of flavors. Like, Oregon has so such incredible produce. I've learned to be, like, local in the sense that I don't eat strawberries unless they're in season. So last Saturday, we went to pick. My parents. We went to pick hoot strawberries, and then we went to see the peony farms.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, nice. Yeah. I feel like your mindset kind of changes when you live here a little bit around. At least it did for me, around eating strawberries. Because now I'm like, only the best. Only eat them in the spring when they're in season, and it feels snobby. But they're so good that way.

[Dirk Marshall]

They're so good. Even though, like, Sarah will come home from the farmer's market with berries, and it's like, we have to give them to our daughter that day, because the next day they're just. I don't know what happens. They're so fragile and fresh that it's just like. But once you get used to that, you get excited. You're like, I'm going to house so many berries. I'm just going to eat all these. Now I have to out of respect for these berries.

[Megan Scott]

The duty.

[Dirk Marshall]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

A few years ago, we went to a U pick, and it was maybe like the last week of strawberry season, and it was like they were falling apart. It was like jam on the. What is it? Bushes.

[Megan Scott]

Not a vine.

[John Becker]

It's not a vine.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. But, yeah, jam right off the plant.

[John Becker]

Yeah. And it was warm from the sun.

[Holly Ong]

Oh, my God.

[Megan Scott]

Holly, what's your relationship to Joy of Cooking? When did you first encounter the book?

[Holly Ong]

Yeah, So I like to read cookbooks, and one of the earliest cookbooks I read when I went away to college in Australia was Stephanie Alexander's how to cook stuff, Right. And Donna Hay. That's kind of where I learned how to do the Western stuff. And then I also cook Singaporean stuff because I missed home. And then when I moved here, I had never, like, I had Julia Charles, both of her books, and then quite a few other stuff as well. And then I remember meeting Judy Ann Wu, who's a publicist here in Poland, and she said, you have to go get this book. I'm like, what's that? And then I was like, oh, oh my God, I love this. It's got so much information. And I geeked out for a while and then I found out you guys were here and then it was major geek up. So when Sarah Marshall said that she was doing this, I was like, yes, please sign me up. Thank you so much for having me on this show and listening to me.

[Megan Scott]

Babble about Singaporean food anytime. Thank you so much for cooking us crab. What a. What a luxury. Seriously.

[John Becker]

Thank you so much.

[Megan Scott]

Holly, could you talk a little bit about what you make and sell?

[Holly Ong]

Yeah. So when we started the supper club and journey about starting the company, we kept making sambals. But I think in the U.S. like, we don't, unless we're desperate, don't really eat the sambal. We find a shop here because we always have it in our fridge and it's kind of like a cheat sauce. It is spicy. And a lot of times the question we get is, is it a chili oil? No, it is not a chili oil. And then. And then usually when I have a conversation with them, I'm like, actually, I can make chili oil. And it probably takes me like half an hour because the cooking time is very short and you need just hot oil and the spices. Right. But sambal takes a long time and the right peppers. So when we did our supper club, we were testing concepts anyway. And cooking for fun, right? There was a lot because we got to enjoy whatever we cook as well. But we thought about, like, hey, as busy adults, because we were at jobs, right? Well, I kind of still have a job now, but like, but when you are busy and you still want a good meal. Because I remember what my mom was a working mom, but we always had a home cooked meal. And the reason why she could come home and cook very quickly was because she had cheat sauces like sambal in the fridge. Like the blue one that we have, the OMG Sambal. That's her Sambal. And for about 10 years, I was pescatarian, which I'm not now. But pretty much the only thing I'll eat was her sambal fish. So she'll put it on. On salmon or whatever fish was in season or, like, available and just pop it in a hot oven, and I would eat that. And it's very fast to cook with, Right. So once you have that, you. You don't have to work so hard in the kitchen. So, like, a lot of the recipes we develop are actual ones we eat at home. And I always time myself. I should be able to make this in 20 minutes. If not, it's too much time. I mean, I can make the complicated. Take three days and start from scratch and fry for, like, six hours or whatever. But you don't do that every day. I mean, it's not like making bread. Right. So, like, during COVID I learned to make sourdough because I really could see the dough rise. But it's like. It's not like you want to. There's times when you do those. I call it slow cooking meals, where you want the flavors to develop and times when you want that nice, healthy meal with good shopping. And we're very lucky in Portland, Oregon. And I didn't realize that not everywhere in the United States. The supermarkets are like the ones here in the farmer's market, which we're very lucky.

[Megan Scott]

They're incredible. Yeah, we are really lucky with food here.

[Holly Ong]

I was told by friends that said, no, it's not normal. So I feel very lucky that I landed in the not normal, but very good food place.

[John Becker]

Wow. The 20 minutes. That's a pretty strict criteria there for the recipes.

[Holly Ong]

Well, we read. I actually, I wrote one that was longer. It was a shrimp biryani. And that's also when, you know, I was writing in a way where I was taught how to cook. Right. So usually in Asia, nobody really measures. I had to sit my. The aunts, the grandmas were down and like, show me. And then, you know, they was like, yeah, just use a rice bowl. I'm like, which rice bowl? Many rice bowls. Right. So it's watching the whole process, but I also understand where they're doing it because, you know, they cook so much by instinct, because a lot of them, at least the older generation, they got married very young, and the kitchen was all they spent their time in. So they had to do speed and buy well because they were. Had to. They were given a budget to buy whatever's freshest. Right. So they learned over time what to cook. And some of the shortcuts as well. So in a way, like, making the sambal was our kind of like, hey, this is actually real things. Because a lot of comments we get when people taste, oh, especially the Asians, who are usually our harshest critics, they're like, oh, it's spicy. I'm like, yeah, it's real. I did not. I mean, this is exactly what we eat at home.

[Dirk Marshall]

I have a question. So growing up in Oregon, I feel like I was introduced to like sriracha at the same time as like a sambal. And I never knew what the difference between the two were. And I would see people use them interchangeably. Could you just say what a sambal is for listeners that maybe aren't.

[Holly Ong]

Yeah. So sambal is actually a Malay word. In Southeast Asia, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, you will find sambals. There's fresh sambals, there's cooked sambals, which is like the ones we made, and there's fermented sambals as well. And generally when we go to shops or at homes, it's usually spicy. It's made out of different types of stuff. There's usually alums involved, but they interchange with different kind of like herbs. Sometimes there's kaffir lemon, sometimes there's lemongrass and stuff, but in general there isn't. It's only recently, I think they started to have a little bit more naming conventions. Like there's sambal hiju, there's sambal olek or whatever. But when we go to the shop or we are sitting down, we just ask, hey, uncle, we want sambal. And then it comes and we instinctively know which one we eat with what. So if you go to our more Malay nasi padang shop, which is kind of like a shop, we go and they have like as big as this table, rows of food, right? And you pick whatever you want in cooked whatever. And it's usually we eat with rice, so there'll be a curry fried thing and stuff. And each of them will have kind of like a company sambal. And you rock up and you're paying for it. Auntie will ask you which sambal you want and then you point to whichever one from the taste profile of whatever you want to eat. But kind of like we grew up with it, so there isn't really a name. So even when we were making it, we're like, how do we call what we are going to do? So we kind of threw names out and then they stuck. Yeah, they're not root names. Afraid it's not what you think it is.

[Megan Scott]

What does it stand for?

[Holly Ong]

So that's made by my best friend's mom, who Auntie, and their last name is Featherstone. So AF is Auntie Featherstone.

[Megan Scott]

Okay. I was wondering. I did think it meant the other thing, which I was like, okay, cool. Yeah, it's very edgy. But I like that you talked about how, you know, sometimes you want to cook a long cooking dish. Like, you build up the flavor over a long time, like a braised or, like, you know, beef bourguignon or something, where you saute the onions and then you. You have all your aromatics, and you cook with wine and it simmers for hours. But then sometimes you just need a quick meal, but you still want it to taste really flavorful. And the sambal is a really nice way to add all of that flavor without cooking for a super long time.

[Holly Ong]

Yeah. Because actually, when you think about the French restaurants or in the restaurant industries the chefs make, they spend so much time making their sauces and their roux and their cheat sauces, and they are always these, you know, these tubs that you see in the restaurant, like 32 ounce of something. But when they have it, those things have taken time to make. Right. And when they have it, they can cook and plate everything they need for dinner service very quickly. So in a way, sambal is like a very good cheat sauce in your kitchen. So even actually when you cook or make a curry, the blue one is actually a lot of curry recipes that you read. The front part tells you to soak the dry chili, grind it, and then stand there for hours to fry with the alliums and stuff until the oil separates. You can cheat all of that and just use that directly and just change out the spices. So I can make three types of curries just using that change out the spice. You can have a yogurt based one, you can have a tamarind based one and a coconut one. But you just change out and depending on what you're cooking, a meat, a dal or something. But that is your cheat sauce.

[Megan Scott]

Okay. Yeah. I wanted to ask you how you like to use the three different sambals that you make.

[Holly Ong]

Well, when I eat Italian food, don't tell the Italians that I would like puttanesca. I was still a bit of boomsen because it has the. The shrimp. The shrimp sauce. Because puttanesca has that sardini flavor, right. And I. I do like Singaporeans, Malaysians, Indonesia. Most of the time, we like things a bit spicy. We want the extra little bit. And it's. I call it the cheat spice umami. Thing, it creates that bold flavor without you actually spending a lot of time in the kitchen.

[John Becker]

So the boom sauce has. What is it, shrimp paste?

[Holly Ong]

Yeah, it's fermented shrimp paste. We call it balachan. It's also called terrasi. And then all around Southeast Asia and in China as well, we all have a version of it. Because back in the days, it was the way they kept seafood. Right. And there was the source of protein that they ate with rice or like a flavor enhancer. So that one, the boom sambal, is what we usually eat with nasi lemak back home, which is coconut rice. And the dish is traditionally a breakfast dish. It's coconut rice, egg, crispy anchovies, and a slice of cucumber. You kind of mix everything up and you eat. Because last year I had to cook for a lot of different people. The kids want the food never to touch. So we're like, no, no. We're taught from a very early age. We want to mix the flavors from a textural and kind of like mouthfeel perspective. So when you are eating it, all that flavor is melding in your mouth. And then you have the cucumber on the side to cool off whatever you're doing. Because it's spicy. Right. So that one, it's one of the umami factor in there is very high because of the fermented shrimp paste. But that's also the one I will eat with cheese. Cheese. Grilled cheese sandwiches I will make. Eggs is actually one of my favorite ways of cooking with that because, like, when I'm making an omelette, I just add like two eggs to one teaspoon, and you just beat everything up and you cook it. You can have a scramble. You can omelette, you can do as a hash. You don't have really have to add more salt. So in a way, you're not adding more salt to food because it's kind of healthy. Right. We should watch our sodium intake.

[John Becker]

Sure.

[Holly Ong]

Well, but you know, you know where I'm getting at. So when we can, we will add that. But essentially, it's kind of a flavor where you don't have to work that hard for it. That's good on avocado toast, too. That's also one of my favorite ways of eating that.

[John Becker]

Nice.

[Holly Ong]

Yeah. And then the green one, it's the tangy. That's. The first two are oil based, so. And then the green one is the vinegar based one. And that one is usually eaten with. Traditionally we have it with Hainanese chicken rice, but we Also use it for kuipaiti, which is like, little cups that are like little fried cups of dough where we've put with jicama that's cooked with scallops and stuff. It's a lot of work. I will never make it so much work because I looked at it and I look at auntie making it, I'm like, no, I just want to eat it.

[Megan Scott]

Right.

[Holly Ong]

And they will cut the jicama, and aunties all swear by hand cutting it. So it's a lot of work because they don't believe in using a food processor. Thin strips. It has to fit that little cup that's like the size of a shot glass. And then you dribble, like, just one dot on it on top. Yeah. But that's also, like, it. It breaks the flavor from a acid level. So it goes well with, like, steak. I brought it down to the coast. I like it on seafood, actually. Like, oysters, raw oysters. I would just dribble it on.

[Megan Scott]

Okay.

[Holly Ong]

It's a nice. It's a different kind of shrimp cocktail kind of sauce. But, I mean, I like it because it has that little bit of acid, it has a bit of garlic in it, and it's very bright. But they're all different taste profiles. And generally, you know, we make them, and we're very happy to be able. When we first started, we weren't sure whether there was an audience that would even want to eat it. Right. And I remember I said, okay, let's try this and see whether it will go. And Covid just happened. And I was part of Accelerate Women's then. And I remember they corralled all the new incubator groups. And then, because we were all stuck at home. And I remember this distinctly, all the buyers were on one computer screen, and they will. We had five minutes to pitch to all of them. Yeah. Or like, something like that. And they. They. Between Bill, Oregon them, and all the miracle people that got all the buyers in Oregon, Portland, to the products in front of them. And they organized it some magically, and then they were tasting it. And I remember John and Laurie and World Market, Joyce, they said, we'll take it. Right. Just tell us when you're able to make it. And that was to us the first time we thought, okay, maybe this can work. Maybe people want to eat this.

[Dirk Marshall]

You've listed off, like, so many super creative ways to use it. And I was curious, because when we're at the market, like, you are customers sometimes think of things that you didn't think of. Has Anyone ever come up and told you something and you were like, I would have never thought of doing that.

[Holly Ong]

Yes. This is always my favorite. One of my favorite ones. So this was when we. So when we had a little shot on Northwest 23rd because we needed a kitchen to make our products when we first started, right? And I remember this woman. And that's two stories. One of them was like, why are you buying so much? Because I know how much I eat. And she kept coming back. So I finally asked her, what are you doing with the booms? And booms is the hardest one to sell. Because that funkiness, not everybody grows up with it. So you either love it or you don't like it. She said, yeah, we glaze our bacon with it. It's now maple glazing. I said, yeah, that's now how we eat our bacon. Now, that was the aha moment. She said, yeah, it's sweeter. So. And then there's more umami because of the fermented shrimp paste. And then it tastes better. So I'm like, okay, I can try that. So I did that one night for burger night. So that was amazing. And then there's this girl who came in with her mom once, and then they disappeared, and then they came back again about a week later, and she only came and her mom was. Because Northwest 23rd is a busy street, and her mom literally just sent her down with a credit card. I'm like, why are you buying, like, three? I thought you guys just bought. So, yeah, they had been. And I didn't even know that this was possible. They emptied the entire jar of chili chunka into a slow cooker and put chicken in it.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah, that would be delicious.

[Holly Ong]

That one I haven't tried, but I'm like, oh, okay.

[John Becker]

Yeah.

[Holly Ong]

And then she said, yeah, I'll eat it. So my mom says, we'll buy it. You know, we have kids.

[Dirk Marshall]

That's all it takes.

[Holly Ong]

Yeah, sometimes, right?

[Megan Scott]

I'm starting to think you can put them on everything. Just about.

[Holly Ong]

Yeah. I. I haven't found a situation where it goes. Huh. But, you know, it's always fun, especially at farmers market, when you see the regulars, they come, and then they tell you what they've been eating with it. Because our intent when we were making this is like, Singaporean food. There's a lot of different types of the Malay, the Indian, the Chinese. Right. But you cannot make a lot of it here. But we have such great produce here. And then so it's like, how do we kind of marry the two? And Kind of add flavor and cook with what we have, like salmon here in Pacific Northwest, which is also why we are very spoiled with it. I didn't realize there were different types of salmon. I just thought they came from Norway. Right. I have a friend who won't eat anything that's farm. I'm like, what? Really? But in Singapore, because we're so small, we don't have land to grow anything. So everything's imported, generally. But here, there's chinook, and then there's the king salmon, and there's a sock eye. And then there's something else. I remember being at the market and I asked the fishmonger, why is that salmon so pale? And he looked at me. I remember this. He was like, the disdain look. He said, that's what it's supposed to look like. I didn't know they added color in it, but I said, oh, okay.

[Megan Scott]

Speaking of seafood, I wanted to shift gears a little bit and talk about crabs, since that is the topic of this week's episode. And our question that we got is about crab, actually. Do you want to just go ahead and play or read the questions so that we can kind of get into crab?

[Dirk Marshall]

Yes, I do. I just moved next to a shop that sells live crabs. How do I easily cook them?

[Megan Scott]

Holly, do you mind kind of walking us through the Singaporean chili crab recipe?

[Holly Ong]

Yeah. If you have excess to live crab, that's amazing. Right? Because it's very lucky that we can do that, especially here in Poland. But to choose the crab that you want, my mom, like, we're growing up. It's like you can get the guy to choose it, but when you're picking it up, make sure that the body is firm. If it doesn't feel full and heavy, it's likely that it ate through its reserve. So you're going to cook with a crab that's not very meaty and you want some meat on the crab.

Right.

So that's one.

[Megan Scott]

You kind of feel the underside and.

[Holly Ong]

The side where the belly is. And most of the times the claws are locked, so it should be fine to tickle a little bit. Well, tickle them a bit and just press them a little bit. Yeah. And then I've had also had the pets alive. I'm like, in a way, it's like eating chicken. I rather have a chicken that has a face than eat a chicken that was grown without a face. I think I have a problem with that.

[John Becker]

More read up on chicken husbandry.

[Holly Ong]

You know, you're talking about lab grown meat. I think that may be the future. But I'm like, I would like to know the chicken like crabs. Treat it with respect. I think that's the best way we can honor its life. And then in cooking it, I don't like to cook the way my mom taught me, which was to lift up the little belly and then stick a chopstick and wriggle it, because it really does violently protest. And I don't recommend that.

[Megan Scott]

It seems like it doesn't like that.

[John Becker]

Sick. We are chopsticks.

[Holly Ong]

Yeah. Chopstick or knife? Yeah, chopstick. That one is a bit cruel in a way. So when I learned the more western ways of cooking, like lobster. Right. And stuff, I don't do the boiling water method. I do a slight steam in the pot. And then if I have a pasta pot or the tamale pot, I usually have the water at the bottom. I pile the crabs into the tamale or the pasta pot, and then when the water is really violently steaming, bubbly, I put everything in there, close the COVID and then I walk away for a while.

[John Becker]

Yeah, no, it's really smart. I. I mean, compared to the. The ways that we recommend cleaning live crab, it doesn't start with that par. Steaming technique. And it seems to make things easier, especially like, you know, you're really after the. The tamale, the crab butter.

[Holly Ong]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

And I think the methods that we use maybe not quite as good for, like, harvesting that.

[Holly Ong]

Yeah. I think part of it was also the flavor, because when I was, like, looking at some of the. How to cook crabs in, like, Dungeness crab, just. Just make sure that they were the same. There was a lot of, like at Kelly's Marina. I always remember they were throwing away the bits. And the first time I saw that, I went. Because that's the part where in Asia we love to eat is the crab. We call it the. It's not the roe, it's the milk, the guts or whatever. And that's the flavorful part. Right. For us, I think the Filipinos. Carl, fellow chef at Magna, cooks a crab fat noodles that's actually cooked with the. The guts. Well, the organs, I would say, and create so much umami and a lot of flavor. So when I cook the crab, essentially, I. I don't clean it until it's steamed, and then I do the shock it in ice water just to cut the cooking time. And then you start breaking it apart. And then I always have a bowl underneath it to catch the liquid, because that's, in a way, a lot of flavor coming out. It's kind of Like, I don't know, equivalent, like the chicken broth, when you put, when you cook this chicken well and you, the juices that flow out, you want to keep that because when you make your gravy, that's the most yummy part.

[John Becker]

Right, Right, right. And that's also why, why you're steaming is because you want the water that they're being cooked in to be nice and concentrated with the flavor.

[Holly Ong]

So when we cook the chili crab as well, it's actually like when you have a few ingredients, you don't need to complicate it very much. I think on the website that I write, you can use aromatics like the ginger and the garlic and the lemongrass if you have them, but if you don't and you're like, you know, you're on a beach if you have sambal, the crab, and you can cook with a cooked crab, I've done it before and the quality of the crab is really good in Oregon. So you can do that. You need eggs and very good tomato sauce. Right. And then once you have that, you stir fry a bit of oil. If you're aromatics, do that. And then you put in your sambal and you need to wait and it will sizzle, the sambal will sizzle and then the oil will separate. That's why you put in the tomato sauce. And then after you've cleaned your crab, you can put, put it all inside and then you cover it to let it continue cooking. And it's about. Well, usually when I do the steam crab method, it's between six to eight minutes and that. And you can tell because they are dark like gray when they're not cooked yet.

[John Becker]

So just to be clear, you par steam them for about six minutes and then you cook them in the tomato sambal sauce for another six minutes, three minutes.

[Holly Ong]

So it's literally we have to clean them first and then when you cut them open, you need to take the guts out. The guts are. The part that you don't want is the wriggly white bits. That doesn't sound very good. Right?

[Dirk Marshall]

But yeah, I don't want those. That is not what I want.

[Holly Ong]

But that's, that's usually the part you don't want. But the rest of it is usually very, it's all edible. And then when you have the sauce and it's mixture, it's bubbling. So seafood likes hot environment to cook in. Right. So it must be like kind of bubbling of the sambal and tomato base. And then you put the broken up crab in there. And cover it, and then you let it cook for about two to three minutes.

[John Becker]

And you usually, like, crack the shell a little bit to let the juices in.

[Holly Ong]

I did, but I forgot today.

[John Becker]

Oh, well, no, no, no. It was. It was delicious. So good.

[Dirk Marshall]

Is this a recipe that's on your website?

[Holly Ong]

Yeah, I have it on my website. I also did something with Food52. They have it, but I never watch myself or listen to myself because it's on.

[Megan Scott]

It's on YouTube, though, if you look up. Oh, yeah, it is.

[Holly Ong]

I didn't know.

[Megan Scott]

It's a good video. It's great. You did a really good job.

[John Becker]

Better. Better than I could do.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. If you look up Food52 on YouTube and what was the title of the video? Or if you just look up maybe Holly Ong.

[John Becker]

Yeah, Holly Ong Chili crab. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Then you can find it.

[Holly Ong]

I think it pops up.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

I. I imagine that we might put something in the.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Holly Ong]

Oh, or we'll do it on Joy, because I'm sure Joy or cooking will love it too.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. We need to. We actually need to. I want to commission you to help us with our chili crab recipe for the next edition.

[Holly Ong]

You know, it makes single. Because Singapore is so small. Right. There's only about 5.5 million of us, so anytime we get to fly a little red flag wherever and tell people about our food, we get so happy.

[John Becker]

Yeah. We currently have a chili crab recipe, but, you know, after having yours, I. I feel like maybe we need to work on ours.

[Megan Scott]

We don't use enough sambal in our recipe.

[John Becker]

Well, yeah, first of all, we're not starting with your awesome OMG sambal. But, yeah. Pretty sure we just don't have enough broth.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. There wasn't enough. There's not enough.

[John Becker]

There needs to be sauce. Sauce.

[Megan Scott]

I mean, like, for bread. And you were talking also in the video that you did with Food52, about using the little fried.

[Holly Ong]

Yeah. When we were growing up, eating. Eating the crab is fun, but it's also, as a kid, is the sauce you want to eat. Because eating crab is a lot of work. Right. So usually somebody's peeling for you, but we want to dip and eat the sauce. So I remember growing up, we started, there was bread, and it was like the baguette kind of bread. We call it the French tiantou, which is like arrow bread. And then as they got more innovative with the restaurants, they started to do deep fried mantos, which is the little Chinese buns. And kids love them. I mean, we grow out with that flavor. We like sweet bread, right. Little breads. And then deep frying it. It's really good, so it's crispy. And then you're dipping that into umami, tomato ish sauce. It's very easy to keep a kid happy and just. They'll just sit there and eat that.

[John Becker]

Well, I mean, just to make the kids happy. Does the crab ever get picked before it gets served? Going too far?

[Holly Ong]

Well, as a kids, when at the restaurants it's served whole with everything. Nobody gets like the, the crap that's picked. But you know, it's. What was the interesting thing you have friends who eat crabs with. There's always. It's fun to watch them eat crabs because everybody has a technique. There's the people who will do all the hard work, put everything in the thing and then they'll start to eat. And people who just dive in and just get everything. But we have a kind of thing back home. It's kind of. You don't go to eat crabs with people unless you like them because it's very hard to go eat with. It's not a first date food. You cannot go on a first date. And when you're doing as a business dinner on stuff, it's a special occasion because it's expensive. And it's also great to break the ice, right? Because you can't be prim and proper. It's not like there's no fine linen. And using a knife and you can't, you have to dive in, get messy.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, we're a bib. Another good recipe that uses live crabs or if you have access to them is cioppino, right?

[John Becker]

The like Pacific, you know, version of. No, not even close. It's a tomato based sauce. But yeah, we have a recipe for cioppino and that starts off with. With yeah. Live crab. I mean you can again like, like you were saying with chili crab you can, you can substitute like crab meat or, or a cooked crab if you can't find live.

[Holly Ong]

But not everybody's lucky, right? Because in Oregon we can find. And even because I talked to, I have friends who are fisher guys, right? And then talking to them when they have, when they catch the fish and seafood. You realize how much technology has moved for seafood. They freeze it so fast at the sauce. It actually locks in the flavor. Because for the longest time growing up we never like, if you like, nobody will say buy frozen because we all like the wives, the grandmas is like, no, we won't eat that. Right. But the technology has caught so much caught up that is actually sometimes even fresher than what you get. So I've actually tried the chili crab recipe in the middle somewhere. I can't remember where it was, but, I mean, it was only frozen crabs that was available. So I tried it and I was like, oh, because you can taste the crab when you defrost it and you can taste that it is very fresh as well. So even if it was like frozen at sauce, if it's a reputable market, with frozen, you can't find life. Just use that.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. And we have a few or a couple methods for dispatching crabs and lobsters in the book. The one we have used the most is where you put it in the freezer for a little. You don't freeze it solid, but you let kind of put it to sleep.

[John Becker]

Put it to sleep. Yeah. I don't know if that is, like, happening, but that's the easiest quote, unquote, humane method of dispatching them that we know of.

[Megan Scott]

There's a really interesting method from this other podcast that we listen to called Cooking Issues. The host is. His name is Dave Arnold, and he's just like, super, super nerdy about food. He was like a cooking instructor at.

[John Becker]

The, well, French Culinary Institute, which is now. I cannot remember the name. ICC International Culinary Center. I. Yeah, I'm messing that up.

[Megan Scott]

But anyway, he talked about doing all these experiments anesthetizing shellfish or crustaceans by basically diluting clove oil in alcoholic grain alcohol, and then you dilute it even further in sea water. Or you make your own seawater by just adding salt. And a certain concentration of that will kind of. It will anesthetize them like they're not dead, they're still alive, but they kind of. He says they. They start walking backwards and then they stop moving, and that's when you get them and then you cook them because they're basically asleep.

[Dirk Marshall]

Can you taste the clove? Because as a goth, I would love that.

[Megan Scott]

Sorry.

[John Becker]

Sad.

[Megan Scott]

This is a very, like, kind of niche way of doing it. But I did write down the proportions because it's pretty precise. But he says to dilute 10 ML of clove oil in 90 ML of neutral grain spirits. So, like, ever clear. And then use.0,53 ML of that per liter of seawater or, you know, make your own seawater and then put the crustaceans in there.

[Dirk Marshall]

Easy.

[John Becker]

Yes.

[Megan Scott]

Just in case you want to try that. I think putting them in the freezer is a little easier because you kind of do need for cioppino you need to break it up into pieces before you put it in the.

[John Becker]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

You could also just steam it like you did Holly, and that would be. That's even easier.

[Dirk Marshall]

Yeah. I was saying before we started recording that we get stuff from abc. Is that the place in Portland? And at that place, you tell them which one? Out of the tank. It's there, just swimming, having a great time. And then you're like, you. And it's like, no. And then you can ask them to clean it for you. So you're still getting a live crab, but, you know, it's still moving when you get it home. But they'll dispatch it and. And even clean it if you want. Or they'll just dispatch it sort of, and give it to you however you want it. I'm just saying there's options for this.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, there's options. Yeah. They didn't say what kind of live crab. We've been sort of talking about Dungeness exclusively. I'm guessing they're probably not blue crabs, although they could be.

[Dirk Marshall]

Or hermit.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, or hermit crabs.

[John Becker]

That would be a very small. Yeah, you need a lot of those.

[Dirk Marshall]

Lady, this is a pet store.

[Megan Scott]

Excuse me.

[John Becker]

I would like that cleaned, please.

[Megan Scott]

What other crabs might you get live? Like a king crab?

[John Becker]

No.

[Megan Scott]

Might one get.

[John Becker]

I mean, if you're in Alaska or, you know, you're paying for it. I don't even know how you get live king crabs.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that's true.

[Dirk Marshall]

Huge legs. Yeah, those are them. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Becker]

I don't know how you deal with it, if you got it right, but, you know, when we were researching, like, cleaning crabs and whatnot, we were kind of focused on things that would not destroy your house.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Prehistoric monster. And then also, another thing I wanted to talk about with crabs is once you, you know, depending on how you cook it, if you have the shells, like, say you just pick it and eat it with butter and lemon. Save the shells and bake them in the oven. You kind of toast them. There's a recipe in Joy of Cooking for this. I didn't write down the page number, but it's there where you bake the shells until they're toasted, and then you infuse them into butter. So you put the butter in, like, a double boiler, and then you put the shells in there and let it kind of hang out for a while, and then it infuses the butter with the crab flavor, and then you can just use strain that, and then you have the butter for, you know, make a really over the Top hollandaise sauce or whatever you want to make with it. It's delicious.

[Dirk Marshall]

That is awesome.

[Holly Ong]

That would be yum.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

On page 560.

[Megan Scott]

Thank you.

[John Becker]

Of the 2019.

[Megan Scott]

Any other crab thoughts?

[John Becker]

Oh, I was just. I was going to mention that there is another method for cleaning crabs. It's really only practical if you're outdoors and there's a place to basically fling all the stuff you don't want. Unfortunately, you have to say goodbye to, like, all of the crab butter and all the other innards. But it's also. It doesn't have, like, ethically, the vibes are a little off. But you grab the crab, the Dungeness, you know, so that its head is facing away from you and the top shell's up, and you grab it by the legs and the claw. I mean, I guess you don't need the claws, but anyways, you get it above your head, and then you bring it down really hard onto a pointed, craggy rock, and it pretty much just beheads the crab and also takes the top shell off all in one motion. And then all you really have to do is kind of bring the legs together like you're closing a book, kind of. And then just rip it apart.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it just comes apart.

[John Becker]

And then. Then you have, like, one half in each hand. And then you just fling the innards and then. And then into the pot.

[Megan Scott]

You got to be outside where you don't want to, where you're not worried about making a mess. That's the key to that. But it is really fast.

[John Becker]

It's really fast. And it has one other thing going for it. When you cook the pieces that are left, the meat is very, very sweet. It's just a very clean flavor because the innards aren't there.

[Megan Scott]

And it's a very quick. It's a very quick death. I do think it affects the flavor of the meat when it. You. You want to kill it quickly. Apologies to any listeners who are, like, so horrified by this conversation.

[Holly Ong]

Sorry.

[Megan Scott]

If you put it in the part of the territory with eating crabs, you.

[John Becker]

Know, just put it in the freezer and put it to sleep, then take it outside and make a mess, bash.

[Dirk Marshall]

It on a rock and rip it in half. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

This is the desert island. See, if anyone gets trapped on a desert island, they will be glad they listen to this podcast.

[Dirk Marshall]

Exactly.

[Holly Ong]

No, I'm just thinking because Dungenesse crab, the shell is actually thinner than the mud crabs that we get back home.

[Megan Scott]

Really?

[Holly Ong]

Yeah. So it's not. So you can actually use your Teeth to break them you cannot do with mud crabs because it's much thicker. You cann do that. Yeah. But I think in having tried all the crabs around, like when we go out and stuff dungeones crab is really in a class of its own. Yeah, we're very lucky here.

[John Becker]

Yeah, it's, we don't get lobsters here, but I feel like it's, it's an equally luxurious substitute.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I agree.

[John Becker]

I'm sure somebody from Maine will disagree.

[Dirk Marshall]

Oh, hello. I just wanted to take a moment to tell you about an easy way to enhance your meals. Whether they are a healthy vegan grain bowl or that late night snack we'll pretend didn't happen the next day. And that easy way is Marshall's haute sauce. For 15 years, chef and cookbook author Sarah Marshall has been hand making and bottling these delicious sauces. She works directly with local farmers and highlights the lovely flavors of fresh seasonal produce. They're gluten free. There are no additives, dyes, waxes or binders. And they have mouth watering combinations like serrano ginger, lemongrass or habanero carrot curry or even whiskey smoked ghost which was featured on Hot Ones. So head on over to marshallshotsauce.com that's marshallsh a u t e s a u c e dot com and see all the available sauces and spice blends. Oh, that's right. Sarah's created spice packets by dehydrating and freeze drying actual produce so you can impart flavor in your food with more vegetables. But that's a story for another day. Find all of these delicious creations@marshallshot Sauce.com and enter Haute Joy. That's one word. Capital H A U T E capital J.J. o Y one word at checkout for 20% off. That's haute joy at checkout for 20% off. And now back to the show.

[Megan Scott]

And on that note, this week's Joy Scouts recipe is crab cakes because it can be hard to find. Like Dungeness crabs, you don't find a lot of places. There are crabs on the east coast that are similar to Dungeness crabs.

[John Becker]

Jonah crabs.

[Megan Scott]

Jonah crabs.

[John Becker]

Right.

[Megan Scott]

But you know, crab cakes you can make with, you know, you can buy a crab and then pick it. That's a lot of work. But you can do that or you can just buy the lump crab meat at the store. You can even use, it's, you know, not the best, but you can use the canned stuff or frozen crab meat for those. And that's on page 358. Highly recommend serving that with the Creole remoulade sauce on page 564, which is basically, it's like the French remoulade is a lot milder, but the creole version has, like, horseradish in it and celery, green onion, a little. Just a little bit of ketchup and Worcestershire sauce. So it's a little tangier and just got more flavor to it. So if you make that recipe, please tag us on Instagram at the Joy of Cooking and let us know what you think.

[John Becker]

Also, if you do have access to live crabs, please do not make crab cakes out of them. That is. That is a waste of money and a waste of effort. So, you know, just for those of you who do have live crabs, the cioppino recipe is on page 102. And we do have a Singaporean chili crab recipe that I thought tasted really good until I had Holly's. That is on page 359. And then, of course, Holly's recipe. If you have access to the OMG Sambal that is available on Food52's website.

[Megan Scott]

But also it's on your website, Holly, which is cbejo.com. yep. And that's s I b e I h o dot com. If you have a topic, ingredient, or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. We would love to hear from you. Our next week's topic comes from our caller.

[Dirk Marshall]

I've been getting into making sauces. Any favorite sauce recipes? I loved the sandwich episode. So funny. Thank you for making me laugh.

[Megan Scott]

We should have Claire back on and talk about sauces.

[John Becker]

Oh, that's not a bad idea.

[Megan Scott]

That'll be fun, because I feel like you're the sauce. You are a sauce person.

[John Becker]

I mean, you might as well say, I like food.

[Dirk Marshall]

You're a butter guy. Sauce guy.

[John Becker]

What kind of food do you. No, sauce is food.

[Dirk Marshall]

That's how I got into Zoodles. Is I like. I love sauce, but I was eating too many noodles.

[Megan Scott]

We weren't gonna bring up.

[John Becker]

Yeah, we were just gonna ignore that happened.

[Dirk Marshall]

I'm just saying that's what happened. It's sauce. It's all sauce. I'm not on the episode, but do you like Zoodles? I love them now. And before, I always thought, just chop up some vegetables and saute it. But what I was looking to replace was the mouthfeel of the fried chemical ramens that I was eating and a little sauteed zucchini in that Shape gives me the bite and the mouth feel. And I can sauce it up with the sesame. The tahini. It really does work for whatever I was going for, and I feel way better about eating it, so, you know, I mean.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. That tickles. If that tickles the right spot.

[Dirk Marshall]

That tickles the right spot. The zoodle spot.

[John Becker]

You can pry the nongshim ramyun for my whole dead hands.

[Dirk Marshall]

I just eat it so much.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that's the thing.

[John Becker]

Yeah, I. I can see that.

[Dirk Marshall]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

What's everybody cooking this week? What are you excited about, Holly?

[Holly Ong]

Well, my parents are in town visiting from Singapore, and we're doing the first time ever an American thing called renting an rv.

[Dirk Marshall]

Whoa.

[Holly Ong]

And we're driving down to Ben and Crater Lake.

[Megan Scott]

Fun. Oh, Crater Lake is so pretty.

[Holly Ong]

I didn't realize you had to rent campsites. I thought it's like in the. In the Instagram. You just rock up somewhere and then you're there. So in a hurry, we had to do that. So we're gonna figure out how to cook in one, two.

[Megan Scott]

Nice. That'll be fun.

[John Becker]

Awesome.

[Megan Scott]

We're going to Atlanta this Thursday and then to North Carolina to visit my parents the week after. So I don't. I haven't done a ton of research, but I did find out that there's a lot of really good Korean barbecue in Atlanta. So I'm gonna try to have some Korean barbecue. Barbecue.

[John Becker]

Well. And some of it's, like, around where we're gonna be.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, well, it's all over. I mean, it's. It's all over the city. There are really, apparently good spots all over the place. So if you. Well, it'll be. This episode will come out too late. I was gonna say if any listeners have any good Korean barbecue spots in Atlanta that you want to recommend, but I'll just rely on other sources, I guess. What are you looking forward to, John? Is there anything you look forward to when we visit my family?

[John Becker]

Yeah, you know, there's this hot dog place that your dad has taken me to several times called Pulliams. They've been there since, I think, the twenties. The twenties, yeah. But, yeah, I don't know. They. They do this, like, special care. I mean, it's a Carolina style dog, so it's. It's got your. Your coleslaw and your mustard and your chili and. Yeah, they're like these hot dogs that are kind of a unnatural or a red color.

[Megan Scott]

Bright red. Yeah.

[John Becker]

And then they're. They're cut in half and. But not all the way and then they're griddled, you know, cut side down and. Yeah, I don't know. They're pretty great.

[Megan Scott]

I never. I. I don't know. I never loved those. So I would always get the barbecue there.

[John Becker]

I mean, there's always barbecue.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, there's always barbecue. Really good pulled pork barbecue in North Carolina. What about you, Dirk?

[Dirk Marshall]

Oh, man. Well, when I think about the future, it's always about mystery. And when I think of mystery, only one person comes to mind, and that's Dame Angela Lansbury, who was in Murder, She Wrote. And I happen to have Murder She Wrote cookbook right here. And so I've been really eyeing either Hayley Mills lentil loaf roast or Tom Selleck's Crunchy Tuna melt.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, definitely Tom Selleck's Crunchy Tuna Melt.

[Dirk Marshall]

So I'll keep you up to date.

[Megan Scott]

On what makes it crunchy.

[Dirk Marshall]

Well, you'll just have to have that's a mystery sometime. That's a mystery for another day.

[John Becker]

I mean, I'm glad to see a cookbook out that she's associated with. Yeah, that is not like a dieting book, because I feel like there was like a. She had, like, a dieting book.

[Dirk Marshall]

Yes, she did. Yeah. This is actually not, you know, she didn't write this, but recipes from and inspired by actual episodes. So food that actually appeared within the show. So I'm very excited to know. I want to borrow that Daily Mills lentil Loaf. Very excited about that as a big Parent Trap fan as a kid, so.

[Megan Scott]

Yes.

[Dirk Marshall]

Yeah. And Magnum P.I. you know, probably knows his way around a crunchy tuna sandwich.

[Megan Scott]

Holly, before we wrap, where can listeners follow you?

[Holly Ong]

We're on instagram mainly@cbehocibeho, and we sometimes are on TikTok, but not very often.

[Megan Scott]

And definitely check out Holly's website and buy some of the sambals. They're really, really delicious. And as we discussed, they can go on so many things and make so many things tastier.

[Holly Ong]

Thank you for having us.

[Megan Scott]

Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram at the Joy of Cooking. Stay tuned for next week where we will tackle sauces. And don't forget to make this week's recipe crab cakes on page 358. Call in with questions, hopes, history, or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-885. 8. That's 503-395-8858.

[Dirk Marshall]

We could not do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation production house. Thank you to Kayleen Veach, our production coordinator, Hayley Bowers, our audio engineer, and Sarah Margiel, our producer.