C (2:40)

That's a. That is a long trip.

B (2:42)

Yeah, it's a long trip. I just, I did it because I couldn't figure out how to like fly with my sauce to both places because it's just hard to pack glass. Glass and get it there without being stressed out about it breaking or making sure it gets there in time. And so this was just the easier way to do it. But, man, that like, drive back was rough.

C (3:02)

Do you have any, do you have any opinions on car Snacks for a trip like that.

B (3:06)

Totally jerky. And like I said, I like to stop at the roadside steakhouses because, you know, the i5 corridor is all, like, ranches, you know, so there's cows everywhere and there's beef ranches, and they'll have these really great, like, steakhouses along the way where it's, like, local beef. So we'll stop there and eat. But the things, yeah, I like to eat is like, I'll stop at the roadside jerky stands and get jerky and then nuts usually is what I eat. Anything that I can, like, eat and then, like, wipe on my pants and eat. That's my roadside. Yeah, that's how I do it.

E (3:42)

Yeah.

C (3:44)

What about you, John?

D (3:46)

Well, you know exactly what I've been up to. Actually, right after we recorded, like, that very same night, we think that is when you got food poisoned. So, yeah, it was like, it's been a rough week. Yeah. No, I had to shop for a photo shoot where we. We were doing photos of, like, five different recipes. And like, in the middle of that, you started feeling the symptoms and you're like, I need Cowman guy. So, like an idiot, I did not go to the place that actually has Cowman guy ready to go.

C (4:16)

I decided the place that has Khao Man Guy in its name that is famous for making Cow Man Guy.

D (4:22)

I was like, oh, that means I have to make Khao Man G in addition to shopping for everything. So, yeah, that happened.

C (4:27)

It was really good.

D (4:28)

I'm glad you appreciated it.

C (4:29)

Yeah. Thank you.

D (4:31)

Of course. And then, of course, the Joy Scouts homework for the week. Cincinnati chili and ramen together. So did that last night and then had some for lunch today because Cincinnati Chili's is really good if you leave it alone to kind of think about things overnight and then skim the fat off the next day, at least. I think it improves it quite a bit.

C (4:52)

So how did you feel about it over the ramen instead of spaghetti?

D (4:56)

Well, I feel like it just gave me license to do other things that I would never do. To sit side chili, like, you know, I mean, it's the. The authenticity is just not there. You know, it's not overcooked spaghetti. We got the ramen going on, so we have so much cheese right now, I couldn't pick up some of the, like, medium, you know, yellow cheddar to do, like, the gigantic pillow of cheddar that's supposed to go on top for. I did a three way. So, yeah, three way just gets spaghetti, chili, and cheese on top. So Yeah, I ended up using, like, some extra sharp tillamook that we had.

C (5:28)

And which is entirely too fancy for Cincinnati chili.

D (5:33)

It's a little.

C (5:33)

But I mean, probably still really good.

B (5:36)

What are you supposed to use?

D (5:37)

You're supposed to use medium cheddar or like, medium, you know, kind of like, they call it sharp, but it's not very sharp cheddar.

B (5:43)

We're a Tillamook house. We only ever have extra sharp tillamook. We never have medium, but I think that's like mid Midwest. You only ever have, like, medium is what my friend Aaron says.

C (5:53)

Yeah, I think it's. They have different. I think they even have different labeling for cheese sold in the south and Midwest. That's slightly. Don't quote me on this, but this is something that I heard at Tillamook, which is like, they have slightly different labeling for the medium sharp, extra sharp. Yeah, Cheddars in different parts of the country.

D (6:12)

I wouldn't trust those Tillamook people to talk about Midwest cheese.

C (6:16)

You know, you don't.

D (6:18)

So, yeah. And then also I, you know, Peter Kim was our guest last week, and so his big thing with ramen is using the seasoning packet, even if you're, you know, doing something a little bit fancy and involved. And so, yeah, I added some of the. It was a shin ramyun red. So I just added, like, the spicy, beefy seasoning pack to that, like, as a garnish.

C (6:39)

I can't wait to have some. I'm still not quite there yet with. I just don't feel like Cincinnati chili is what my stomach needs right now. But one day I will. I will have some of that.

B (6:49)

When you're healed.

C (6:50)

Yeah, when I'm healed.

B (6:50)

Your body is healed. You will dig in.

C (6:52)

Yes.

B (6:53)

I did want to mention the places I ate while I was in California, in case we have some California listeners. The roadside place that I ate, steakhouse place I ate, was called Harris Ranch, and it's in Fresno. So if you're in the Fresno area, I would 100% recommend eating there. At the steak tips, they, like, cook at tableside, which I think anything that they'll do tableside, I'm a fan. I never think it's cheesy. I always think it's fun. If somebody's going to make me a tableside Caesar salad, I'm always stoked. But they brought out these little mini skillets, like cast iron skillets, and they did, like, filet mignon tips, and then they poured like, this spicy tomatillo salsa over it and cooked it Tableside, which is pretty rad to have happen when you're on a, like, you know, 18 hour road trip. I was like, so happy. So I would recommend going there for sure. And then, you know, when I'm in California, I always try to eat as many avocados as I can because our avocados suck here. And in California, they're so good. Like, we can't ever find good avocados in Portland. So I ate pretty much a million tacos. And in Sacramento, there's a man who has a bunch of restaurants there, but we ate at La Cosetta and Mayajil is the other place. And I would recommend all of his restaurants. Every time that I've been in Sacramento, I've eaten at one of his restaurants. His name is Ernesto Delgado. So I'd recommend going to any of his places. If you're in the Sacramento area. And then in. Whenever I'm in la, I like to go to Koreatown and eat Korean barbecue. And Parks barbecue is my favorite because I love Korean barbecue, where you can cook everything yourself. But in la, it seems like at the some, not all of the Korean barbecue places, but they will. You go to the Korean barbecue places, but they will cook it for you, which is kind of nice because I kind of like that.

E (8:42)

Better at it.

B (8:42)

They're better at it. They do this thing where they'll like do the veggies and then they'll put the meat on top of the veggies when it's at the perfectly right doneness, you know, and so then, you know, oh, it's time for me to eat that. So.

C (8:55)

Very big fan, Great recommendations. That sounds delicious. And I, yeah, the last time we had Korean barbecue, it was really good. But also like the whole time, you know, we're.

D (9:04)

We're just newbies.

C (9:05)

Yeah, we were like trying to cook and it took a. It took up a lot of the dinner to just be like moving pieces of meat around and not really being good at it because you don't know what you're doing well.

B (9:15)

And I was there with Judy Ann Woo, who's from Portland, and she said that whenever she takes people to Korean barbecue and she's Korean, that she always ends up being the person that cooks all the food for everybody. And so then she can't hang out with everybody, she can't enjoy it. She's like the host. So it was nice for her to be able to just like interact with her buddies. And so that was like a nice thing. But also I think when I go to Korean Barbecue. I just cook the shit out of everything. Like everything is too done because I'm worried about getting food poisoning and I'm worried about giving food poisoning to the people that I've taken there. So I like overcook it all, you know. So this was a nice, amazing. So Parks Barbecue in Koreatown. Go there if you're in la.

D (9:55)

We are thrilled to welcome Jim Meehan to the podcast today. Jim is a celebrated bartender, journalist, cocktail consultant and the author of several books, the PDT Cocktail Book, Meehan's Bartender Manual and the Bartender's Pantry. After moving to New York City from the Midwest, he worked at Gramercy Tavern and Pegu Club before opening the Speakeasy pdt, which won the very first James Beard Award for outstanding bar program. Jim moved to Portland, Oregon in 2014 and has since won another two James Beard awards for his writings on cocktails and bartending. Welcome to the podcast, Jim.

E (10:30)

Thanks so much for having me.

C (10:31)

Thanks for being here. What have you been up to this past week?

E (10:34)

It was funny as you guys were recalling your amazing week. I, I literally when I come home, I, I'm so enmeshed in my life as a husband and father of two kids that like, it's really just like toggling between soccer and basketball and dinners and meals with my parents. So I feel like I can barely remember what I, what I did this week. All I know is I was in New York City for about five days about a week ago doing an event speaking of dairy for Organic Valley at the James Beard Platform, which was really fun.

C (11:10)

Nice. What were you doing at the event?

E (11:13)

I actually was making drinks which was, it's, you know, you mentioned my career as a bartender. I attended bar many like 50 hours a week for about 15 years. But it's actually I pulled myself off of full time bar work back in around 2010. So it's interesting. I've now worked as many years behind the bar as I've kind of worked not behind the bar. So I find that the process of pulling guest shifts is both very exciting and very terrifying because when I left, you know, the bar, it was actually, it was something I love doing and was very good at. And now when I jump behind a bar, it is like riding a bike. But you're like not a very good bike rider when you try to do it for people.

C (11:53)

Yeah. Did you have one drink that you were making or.

E (11:55)

It was fun because it was Organic Valley. They were featuring their grass fed milk. They found that like, you know, a lot of people, like we have it all over our grocery stores here and we have it in my house. But I think they, they were aware that people weren't aware of who they are. It's a cooperative of, you know, organic farmers in Wisconsin. So they, they kind of wanted to come introduce them to people. They brought a bunch of their farmers and they really decked the room out. Joshua McFadden was there too. He did his butter boards and was showing off some of the pasta recipes in his book that just came out today. I figured I would use all of their dairy. So I did a butter gin that is in the bartender's pantry. It's a recipe I sourced from Monica Berg in London. I did a clarified milk punch, which was supposed to be in the book. I'm sure you guys know about this, but we had to pull it because of page count. The number of sub recipes in a clarified milk punch was. It was a sprawling fair. And then I did a classic Irish coffee, which is in my second book, that was topped with fresh whipped cream. And there seemed to be very little talk of budget constraints. So I made it with red breast, 12 year old pot stilled Irish whiskey, which makes a mighty fine Irish coffee.

C (13:04)

Yeah, that sounds delicious. I want all of those cocktails. That sounds awesome. It was fun. In your household, does your family have like a dinner strategy or is it kind of chaos or. Or do you eat out a lot? How does your family eat dinner?

E (13:18)

So my wife, we had my daughter in New York. So we were. What we found in New York was everyone panicked when they were pregnant and like moved either to like Jersey or Connecticut or Westchester. They moved outside of the city. And we realized like, when you have an infant, you don't have to go anywhere because they're with you or they sleep next to you. So we stayed in Manhattan for a year and a half. But like about that time I was like, yo, we gotta go. So we moved here 11 years ago. We had a second, so we have a 7 and a 12. So effectively like dinner time. And when I was growing up was like quite the only time we were all together. And it was a sit down kind of like, my dad worked double shifts. So it was like, you know, we. We had like a kind of somewhat formal meal and I find with my kids, ironically, my wife and I met at Gramercy Tavern. She's like a huge eater, an amazing cook, but our kids don't love food the way my wife and I love food. And they don't care about dining really at all. So it is a bit of A struggle in the sense that I'm sitting there kind of wanting to, like, instill some sort of, like, love of the table with these kids. Kids could be. Could care less, you know? You know, they have different food preferences. So last night, we actually did have a meal, and it was really nice. Val made the. The carbonara recipe from Joshua's pasta book. I have to speak with him at Powell's on Sunday. So I'm trying to, like, cram so that I have something to talk about. But it was great, but it's tough.

C (14:49)

Yeah. Like, I grew up in that. In a kind of, like, we always sit down at the table for dinner. Family. That was just how it was. And I don't remember, you know, probably, like, your kids. I don't remember caring a ton about food. I mean, I. I knew what I liked and what I didn't like, but didn't realize how awesome it was to sit at the dinner table with my parents until I was older. And now I look back, and I'm like, oh, that's so great that I got to do that. But at the time, it was just like, yeah, whatever. I'm just here to eat.

E (15:18)

Yeah, I. I feel like I'm one of three boys. Like, I'm the oldest. I have a brother who's less than. He's around a year younger. And then I have another who's three years younger. And, like, it was just a little. My mom always cooked enough food. There was always enough food on the table, but it was a bit of, like, I was hungry. Everyone ate pretty quickly. My dad only had about 40 minutes to eat before he had to go back to work. And it's interesting. Like, one of the reasons why I was so excited to meet you guys, I'm excited to be here, is that my grandmother was the sort of, like, gourmet of our family on my mom's side. We used to visit her in Michigan for summers, and she had, like, a kitchen that resembled Julia Childs, and it had, like, all the pans on the backdrop, and she had every back issue of Gourmet, but she. But I remember distinctly her having the joy of cooking. And she really cared a lot about cooking, and her food was amazing. My mom, God bless her, who's a great cook, we went and had dinner with her on Sunday. Has a lot of food aversions. So she doesn't like mushrooms. She doesn't like a lot of cheeses. She doesn't eat any fish. So in some ways, my mom's aversions to a Lot of foods made me very interested, for instance, in, you know, anything, like I will eat anything. And my grandmother and her kind of like cookbook collection and interest in entertaining really sort of like, you know, brought me into this world that we're all in.

C (16:40)

I feel like that kind of trapped. Well, your dad also has a lot of food aversions.

D (16:45)

Well, a few, yeah. He's. He's had some traumas, some food traumas in his life that he just carries with them, has held onto for maybe a little too long. I mean, some, some would say, of course, but. But yeah, yeah. As a result, I'm, I'm not a very picky eater and some of the things that he has aversions to, like licorice. I'm not like, you know, going out.

C (17:07)

Of my way to clamoring.

D (17:09)

I'm not clamoring for licorice. Although, you know, the, the Jacobson licorice with the sea salt, that's pretty good. I will go out of my way for that licorice.

C (17:17)

But generally speaking, in case listeners didn't hear that, John mumbled the Jacobson licorice. It's a salted licorice chews. They're really, they're really good. They're proper salty too. Super good.

B (17:31)

I have a question for you. Our listeners can't tell, but you're wearing a T shirt that says Pals on it. And it makes me think of you're probably behind a lot of restaurant cocktail menus. But I'm wondering, like, how that works. Like, are you part owner of those places? Do you get hired for a job? Do people know that's your work? How, how does that process. What's that process look like?

E (17:54)

So, pals, that's a thank you for noticing. Latest piece of swag.

B (17:59)

I noticed because I really want to go there. I keep seeing it all over my Instagram. Do you guys know about this place?

C (18:04)

No.

B (18:05)

Well, I hope you're going to tell us.

E (18:06)

Sean Horde, Donald and Brandon, who were basically. Donald used to be the GM at the Ace Hotel during the sort of Ace Hotel's kind of heyday. And Brandon worked with him, I believe at Clyde or at Pepe as well as at the Subtle Lodge. So I think the. Donald's company is called mighty union. Spirit of 76 is one of their other bars, but they have opened a. Basically a dockside restaurant on Hayden island. And it just. Donald is. And Sean, you know, all of them, frankly, just they. He's brought that kind of clubby feel of the, of the vintage Ace Hotel. But it's just there, it's a very friendly place. They have like all this beautiful outdoor seating and they, they've sort of brought sort of some of the greatest hits I think from Subtle Lodge, which you know is. It's a bit of a hike from here, but I bet probably a lot of people from here have been. So they have the fish sandwich there and like, I just think it's kind of awesome. They have like some groceries there and it's, they have, have like their merch is like super fun. A guy named Morgan Schick who was involved with the bon vivants in San Francisco and who opened a short lived natural wine spot called Grape Ape, he I've heard is behind the design. And it's just these guys are all pals. So I've made sure to get out there and eat there and support and I think Portland is as you well know, like there's so many brilliant like designers and kind of just people making things. So I find that the, our merch and swag, our wearables situation here is usually very strong.

C (19:39)

What's your process for working with a bar to develop drinks?

E (19:43)

So you see, I carefully ignored that.

C (19:45)

Oh, we don't have to talk about it.

E (19:47)

So it's funny. The process usually for me to work with a bar is frankly what usually happens is a restaurant or a bar. But more often for me a restaurant. They take a space, they create a concept, they hire a chef, they hire an architect, they hire a contractor, they hire a kitchen designer. They spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and six weeks before they open, they call me and say, hey, we like to serve cocktails here. And usually like actually one of the best restaurants right now in Portland. I had that exact same situation happen to me and I didn't know them at the time. I probably would have said yes had I known now, but I basically just said like I, I get in, I need to get involved before you design the place, before you spend hundreds of thousands too much on the, on the kitchen, before you don't make space for the garbage cans behind the bar, before you don't build a coat check when it rains all year long here. Like certain things that like I need to be involved at the design stage so that there's a place to cut limes and make lime juice, you know, in the kitchen, you know where. So I just feel like the, unfortunately like the reason why I'm like a cowboy with no cows or like a horse person with no horses or like I, the reason why I'm not associated with the bar right now is like, the list of needs for me has gotten too long and people are just like, you know, they assume either they can't afford me or I don't want to do it. So unfortunately, like, the way to get me involved in your bar project is like, at the very beginning, at the idea stage of, like, this is what we want to do and this is the team we're like, looking to build.

C (21:31)

Well, and that makes a lot of sense because your bar program really needs to be integrated well with the rest of the restaurant. It's not, it shouldn't be an afterthought if you're going to have a serious bar program. No.

E (21:40)

And I feel like one of the premises of the bartender's pantry that I kind of, I've sort of understood this intrinsically. But the thing that I externalized in this book is really that making drinks is cooking full stop. It's not like a, like a lesser form of it. It's not like a. It is cooking. So I just think that if you open a restaurant and you want to serve cocktails there, which obviously you don't have to, but if you do, the beverage person should be involved in all the decisions that are related to design. Because in a restaurant, like, where you invest in design will determine what you're able to do there and whether you're able to like, make money and stay open.

C (22:20)

And you have in your book Meehan's Bartender's Manual. Am I saying that my copy is like, misplaced?

E (22:27)

Yeah.

C (22:27)

You include a lot of diagrams of, of bars, of working bars, which I think is really cool because as just a person who enjoys going to bars and drinking, I hadn't given a ton of thought to the design of a bar beyond. Oh, that looks really cool. But like working in a bar, you have to have everything just on point because it's such a fast paced job.

E (22:47)

Yeah. The, the funny thing from my first book, the PDT cocktail book, literally zero bartenders ever came up to me and were like, thank you so much for sharing your Negroni recipe with me. Like, it changed my life. Like, like, no, bartenders are like parakeets. Like, they all sort of, like all think we all think that we make the best drinks. And frankly, like, a lot of our customers are the same. So the recipes are nice and you need them to sell a book. The publisher won't buy it if you don't have over 100 recipes in it. But the bartenders loved. For the first book, there's a diagram of how PDT is set up. And everyone came to me and was like, thank you so much. That really was universally regarded as the most valuable part of the book. So for the second book, I was like, I'm going to do a whole chapter on this and explain how form follows function and show you. I think there's, like, five different bars and even a home bar where I explain, like, how these different concepts work and how their design basically manifests even to the. At a level of decor. And I think that I never worked in retail. Like, I never worked at, like, Banana Republic or Urban Outfitters of the Gap. But one of the sort of things that I eventually came to understand when I was writing that book is that bars are retail spaces and that the way you merchandise a restaurant or a bar is, like, really important. Because I think that fundamentally people are coming to food service and drinks venues. I think that hospitality is such a big thing right now. And I think that at the heart of hospitality is a desire for belonging that I feel like everyone who enters a food or drink service space is seeking. And I think that that sense of belonging is something that, like, you can help make easier when you create clues for whether you think you fit in there or not, if that makes sense. So I think that that is something that obviously your staff will be the key sort of tool you use to make people feel like they belong or that they're valued or not.

D (24:54)

And I feel like you. You actually do go into that a little bit. There's a nice little section that I noted in the PDT book where you talk about making guests feel welcome. And just like the. That sense of hospitality that you're talking about.

E (25:06)

Yeah, I think it can be affected at the design level. So many restaurants that I either. That I say that I can't be involved in, you know, you look at their plans and you're like, where's the host stand? You know, and there's no host stand. Or, like, there's certain things. That's why I have, like, an illustration that I spent hundreds of dollars having made of the host stand at Frasca, where Bobby Stuckey, who is like, the Michael Jordan of hospitality, like, I have an image of his host stand because that's like the mission control of a restaurant. And if you don't have one of those, it's hard to play the, like, basketball game of hospitality. So there are certain things like that. I hadn't seen a book that had those things in it before.

C (25:44)

Yeah, I hadn't either. What advice do you have for people who are just bartending at home in terms of setting up their home bar. Like, how do you set it up in a way that's welcoming and efficient and that looks good?

E (25:57)

Yeah. I think that that's why I did include a home bar in that book as well, because I think the interesting thing about the pandemic, while there's so much hand wringing and grief over the pandemic, a lot of people started making bread and a lot of people started making cocktails during the pandemic. And I feel like in many ways, sadly, the pandemic sort of fast tracked the commercialization or the industrialization of craft cocktails. And I find, frankly, that a lot of the, like, values and tenants of, like, the way we ran bars, like, as bars, had to scramble to, like, set up to go programs, like the sort of, like the ala minute from scratch, like, let me make you a drink after having a conversation with you model has been really decimated by labor costs and just like a whole new world. And so I actually think that the home bar is like, one of the places that the craft cocktail zeitgeist is being incubated right now during, like, what is emerging as a bit of a dark age that we're entering right now of the cocktail. So I think that as far as, you know, setting up your home bar, the first thing I always say to people is that in the same way, like, if you were saying you wanted to get into wine, if I was trying to get you into wine, or if I was just telling you the truth, I wouldn't tell you, like, well, how big is your basement? Because you're going to need a very big cellar. Like, that's just not the answer. The answer is, like, find a wine you like. Try it. Like, you know, like, blah, blah. Like, it's sort of. You take it step by step. So I would say for your home bar, I would find a space in your house that is probably near a sink, that's near garbage, that's probably in your kitchen, frankly, if you can spare the space. And going back to this idea of, like, merchandising it, find. I don't think that you need to spend tons of money on tools or equipment or lots of bottles, but, like, find a drink that you like. You were talking earlier about, like, the IPA Negroni thing. You said you like Negronis or you don't like.

C (27:54)

I like Negronis and I don't like.

E (27:55)

IPAs, so that's great. So, like, as a bar person, like, you need a gin, a sweet vermouth, and a Campari. You could even bottle that because that's a drink that's totally bottleable. As someone who's like, the craft bartender, I want you to not bottle it. I want you to make it from scratch every time, because it's really easy.

C (28:12)

I do, for the record.

E (28:14)

Yeah. I feel like, for me, it's all about, like, if you love the Negroni in the same way that, like, the most famous bars, like, PDT had a. Like, the Benton's Old Fashioned was our signature drink. Like, as a home bartender, find a drink that you love, work on mastering it, whatever that is for you, and then as you see fit, like. Like, for instance, like, maybe you want to try making a Boulevardier one night for your, like, bourbon loving friends. Or maybe you want to make a aperol spritz for, like, your friends who, like, just want to have brunch. Or maybe you want to have a Spagliato for, you know, when you have extra Prosecco or, like, there's a million variations on a Negroni. And so, like, stick to, like, one degree of Kevin Bacon away from, like, your favorite drink. And, like, you'd be surprised how well that will serve a pretty big audience of people.

D (29:04)

You can actually tell the changing of the seasons by when Megan switches to Boulevardier. Yeah, it's like, oh, it's fall and cold.

C (29:13)

It's time for Boulevardier. I don't know why that is. I don't know what makes it a winter drink, but it is.

E (29:18)

I actually have in the PDT book the, like, I have, like, you know, not six seasons as we'll be talking about. I'll be talking about Sunday, but four seasons. But I have the seasons split up for, like, the spirits that are sort of seasonal, the. The fruits, the herbs, the. The modifiers. And I would agree with you that, like, summer is, like, white spirits, you know, more savory white spirits. And fall is like, when we move into, like, brandies and bourbons and, like, you know, we're going from, like, yellow chartreuse into, like, green for the winter. Like, everything kind of goes on a spectrum.

C (29:53)

Kind of related question I'm wanting to. So my favorite bar in Portland has a house Amaro blend. And I kind of want to do that at home, but I. I'm feeling really overwhelmed because there are so many Amare to choose from. Like, where would you even start thinking about, like, a blend that you could do at home?

E (30:14)

So I'll give you some, like, sausage making sites. Portland is one of the things that, like, shocked and horrified Me, when I moved here was that we obviously are a state. We have state controlled alcohol here. And that means that, like, the liquor boards are state controlled. And in some places, like Pennsylvania, there's like, really not a lot of selection. Thankfully, in Oregon, we actually have a lot of selection. So the state controlled thing isn't a problem. But the price of spirits here is significantly higher than it is, say, in New York. And even more horrifying, the restaurants have to pay retail for their. Like they. I think they get 5% off. It might, I think it's 5%. So I didn't know this. The reason why drinks here are so expensive is that the restaurants are paying retail, basically. And the other thing is, like, when I was running the program with Lydia McLuhan at Tekebi, there were many weeks where we had to shop. We would literally drive to four to six liquor stores across the metro area to like, get a bottle of this and a bottle of that and cobble together our selection. Whereas in New York, you pay wholesale prices and the trucks deliver. So the reason why I think a lot of places here have a house Amaro is a. They're probably like troubleshooting supply issues, but they're also probably finding an affordable way to like, mix a little bit of this nicer Amaro with this not so nice Amaro and kind of like muddy the water so that if you actually are someone like me and you know how much everything costs, you're not sitting there and being like, why is this drink six $16 when your poor cost on it is $2.99, you know, like, so I feel like for the sausage making insight behind this is that if you want to make a house blend of Amaro because you, like, are so nerdy and, and you admire these Portland bars so much that you want to do that, like, go ahead and like do that for your own sake, because it is like an interesting project. But I think the reason why this is done is for the purposes of skirting these, like, really kind of difficult, like, situations for operators to like, make money serving drinks here, if that makes sense.

C (32:29)

That's really interesting.

E (32:30)

I would actually not.

C (32:31)

You would not blend.

E (32:32)

Make a blend. Because the reality is, and you know this, as a recipe developer, creator and tester, the glory of a recipe, a well tested recipe, I should say, is that it's replicable. And one of the things I feel very proud and strongly about is that if I like, I say this a lot to bartenders. Like, if you develop a recipe and it's made with Ingredients that you can source around the world. Like, if. If you become well known for this recipe and that you get invited to, you know, anywhere from, like, Minneapolis to Sacramento to Mexico to make the drink. If it's made with widely available ingredients, you can fly there with clothes in your suitcase or drive there with clothes in your suitcase. But if it's made with a blend, chances are your suitcase will be filled with your components for your amaro, and you'll arrive there, and instead of being a tourist, you'll be making your blend, and no one will really ever be able to make it but you. And that sounds like a good thing. Like, you've cornered the market, but you've basically just kind of bought yourself a job. So I would say, like, for the most part, try to develop recipes with ingredients that you can find so that, like, A, you don't have to worry about the blend and the consistency of the blend, but, B, if you're lucky and this drink takes off, other people can make it. And I think that as, you know, having, you know, one of the most iconic books of all time, having recipes that other people can make and replicate reliably is incredibly valuable.

C (34:04)

I think I might still make it from my own.

E (34:07)

Yeah.

C (34:07)

Like, my own curiosity.

E (34:09)

Heads. The heads will. The heads will have.

C (34:11)

Or no one else.

B (34:12)

I just tried an Amaro in Sacramento that was made by Elizabeth Faulkner, who's an iron chef. She was there at the Terra Madre, but, you know, so that's like, the date capital of the world. So she started making an amaro with dates, which hadn't been done before commercially. So she was saying, you know, she just didn't want to be another chef that put her name on a alcohol brand or whatever. But it was so good. And she did one with a local coffee where the Amara was made with. With dates and local espresso powder, and then made like a espresso martini. And it was so good and so rad. And it was that thing where it was like, this makes it so that you can take this one thing and make this delicious drink, and everybody can make it with these local ingredients. And so it was rad, you know, and I felt like I could make it at home, which I'm not a big, you know, cocktail maker because I feel like I kind of suck at it, you know? You know, I need it to be, like, pretty.

C (35:13)

You just want to go out?

B (35:15)

I just want to go out.

C (35:16)

Yeah.

B (35:16)

Yeah. I don't want to make my own cocktail. I make all my own stuff all the time. I Want somebody else to make it for me.

E (35:22)

And that's why I feel like the. There was. You know, some people have asked me about, you know, in my books, like, you know, about sharing everything. And I just feel like I don't think sharing all your recipes is going to shut down restaurants or bars. If anything, it inspires people because at the end of the day, people. I mean, when people ask me, like, well, what's your favorite drink? Or where do you love going out to drink? I mean, my sort of conceited answer is, like, if I wanted a great drink, I would stay home and make it for myself. Like, I know how to make great drinks. I go out to, like, meet people and try their drinks. And I think that that goes back to, like, I think drinks are, you know, they're not some sort of trap that's going to keep you in your house if you figure out how to make them. There's something that are, like, they're social lubricants that they're like potions that they're telling, and they're like teleportation devices that, like, a drink can trigger a memory of, like, your experience at Terra Madre. And I feel like that is that connection to memory and that sense of place that certain ingredients or drinks inspire to me is like the. It's the power of making cocktails and cooking, for that matter, too.

B (36:29)

And I think, too, it's either, like, I either want to be in a really fancy place having a fancy cocktail, or I want to be in a not fancy place, like playing pinball and like, you know, but either way, I want to be out of my house. Like, I want to be, like, doing something that is not making hot sauce in my home, you know, so I'm like, I want to be somewhere else doing something different, you know.

D (36:50)

Well, and plus, and with a lot of your recipes, you're so very specific about, like, the spirits that you use. And especially with, like, the bartender's pantry with, like, the preparations that you're calling for that. It seems like, you know, you giving those recipe, you're publishing those recipes, it's not going to be like, everybody's going to be. Going to be able to. I mean, yes, like, if they get all the right ingredients, they're going to be able to reproduce it. But it seems like, you know, the specificity with which you write recipes. It's just like, it's very special to, like, the establishments that you open. And. Yeah, so I. It seems like it's not too much of a worry in Some. In some cases, just because you are the one who's stalking, like, all of these great spirits and making these preparations.

E (37:34)

Yeah. One of the things that has confounded me as a. Like, so my writing career began kind of. I was an English major, an African American studies major in college, and I always hoped to write books. And then I sort of realized at a certain point, like, you write what you know, and what I know is bartending and drinks. And so I ended up sort of getting. Finding my way. I helped Anthony Giglio collect recipes for the. For the Mr. Boston's Bar Guide. That led me to an interview for the Food and Wine Cocktail book. When Rob Willey, who was the original editor, left to be the drinks columnist at Details, I interviewed with Kate Crater, and they asked me if I was interested and had any experience. And I said I'd done this work with Anthony Giglio. So I got the job. And I found that back then, this was, like, around 2005. Recipes, like, a Negroni recipe would just say gin, sweet vermouth, you know, Campari. And I just feel like the idea that every gin is the same or every sweet vermouth is the same, it's just not. And so I found, like, in my testing process, as I, like, evolved to get my own books, I thought with the PDT book, the decision to name all of the brands of the spirits wasn't, like, some garish, like, you know, money grab to, like, sort of, you know, market or advertise alcohol brands. It was that, like, I wanted people to see that I was making drinks with the good stuff. And if you wanted to try it the way we made it, you would have to pay the, like. We have a drink called the Stag Rack, and it was made with George T. Stagg. Like, can't make that anymore for, like, less than, like, $300 a glass. But, like, I wanted people to know that these things mattered. And I think that I remain kind of, like, defiant that, like, these products are all they are products, but, like, they're made. Even some of them in large quantities are made with a sense of, like, craftsmanship that is really determinative in the flavor, if that makes sense.

D (39:33)

Yeah, absolutely.

E (39:34)

And I think as a recipe tester, I remember, like, when I would get a recipe in from a bar or bartender who had never been able to, like, try the drink in the restaurant, and I would test it at the Food and Wine Test Kitchen, and I'd follow the recipe, and the drink would be not good, and I'd sort of just be like what got lost in translation here? And frequently at that time it was that the recipe was sent either by a publicist or was sent by a bartender who didn't know how to write a recipe to be made by consumers. So I found that there was that. But I also found that a lack of specificity sort of was really, really sort of endemic problem in drinks writing. So I made a point of being way more specific and in sharing a lot more context about the inspiration. Like, one of the things that I feel like was something that wasn't at Food and Wine when I started and that I left as a sort of convention of our drinks writing was really annotating every drink with who created this, where they created it, what the context of, you know, and some background information that I found as a armchair drink historian. Like, we really don't know, like where the, you know, the, the martini, you know, I know I have an idea of where it was first showed up. But like, drinks like the martini or the margarita or the sidecar, the Manhattan, like David Wonderich and others, have theories of them, but we really don't know where they were. Like really sort of quote unquote created or became what they are today. And that remains like something that drives me crazy. Like the Paloma, for instance, is a popular tequila drink with grapefruit soda. And there's a world in which we know that like Squirt came to Mexico in the 50s. So there's a world in which, like this is a gettable piece of somewhat contemporary cocktail history that just no one cares about. So, like, we don't know. And I know, based on what I've learned about drinks history, that this was a drink that was probably created by a publicist or someone who worked for like a soda distributor or for some brand of tequila. And so the story isn't romantic, like it wasn't created by some maestro at some roadside, you know, Jalisco tequila stand, but someone popularized this drink. And I don't know who it was. And that makes me crazy.

D (41:55)

It kind of brings us back to your background with the, the English degree. There was a part of the bartender's manual that I thought was really intriguing where you, I think there's like a two page part where you, you talk about T.S. eliot and the tradition and the individual talent and how, you know, you kind of apply that to both doing kind of scholarly work on, on cocktails and also your creative process. I was just wondering if you could kind of speak to that a little bit. If it's a broad Question.

E (42:23)

So, yeah, I mean, I think, as I said, like, I always dreamt of being a poet or a writer or, you know, like, I always wanted to be like, whatever, a capital W writer, instead of whatever we are, which now there's no shame in what we all do. But I like. And so I just think that, like, as I think of my inspirations as a drinks writer, I'm always trying to bring people like T.S. eliot into it. So, like, the idea. I think his aesthetics sort of was really about the presentness of the past, like the continuous presentness of the past, which is what I probably wrote about. And I think that that, for me, is something that has informed my process as a drinks writer, but also as a bartender, because in some ways, you know, and not to, like, make more of what we are than what we are, but I feel like cocktails are a distinctly American culinary. Like, they're obviously like people of mixed drinks all over the world. Like, we weren't in the United States. We weren't the first to do this, but they've really taken off here in a way that they haven't necessarily been widely adopted and popularized and celebrated in the way they are here. And I feel like there's an improvisational quality to cocktails that reminds me of jazz, that reminds me just of the improvisation of some of our other American art forms and I think in poetry and music as well, where you take a standard, like a jazz standard, and you either play that standard well or you improvise upon it by changing one of the ingredients and sort of quote, unquote soloing. And I think that there's a. There's a passage in Katsuo Ueda's book, Cocktail Technique. He's a famous Japanese bartender. His book was translated, I believe, in 2008 by Cocktail Kingdom. He popularized the Japanese hardshake. And this was the beginning of Japan's kind of cultural ascendance in the cocktail world. But he has a section in his book where he talks about that when he makes a drink for a guest at his bar and he actually still makes drinks for his guests at his bartender bar in Tokyo, that he thinks of the recipe and the person who originally created that recipe, he thinks of the guest and the way that he assumes, either based on conversation or what he's picking up from them by, you know, their way they're. They're dressed or. Or whatever he can infer in their presence and his own version of that drink, and he tries to, like, triangulate and then make the recipe to that way. And I feel like that to me is like the contemporary Japanese version of T.S. eliot's continuous presence of the past and the sort of American tradition improvising upon a standard. So that is like the way that I sort of like. I like to think about all these different influences and kind of combine them together in a way that pays tribute but also is sort of like unique to the moment.

D (45:23)

Yeah, maybe with more of an emphasis on who you're making the drink for than Elliot would necessarily have. Maybe. But no, that's awesome.

F (45:31)

Oh, hello. I just wanted to take a moment to tell you about an easy way to enhance your meals, whether they are a healthy vegan grain bowl or that late night snack we'll pretend didn't happen the next day. And that easy way is Marshall's haute sauce. For 15 years, chef and cookbook author Sarah Marshall has been hand making and bottling these delicious sauces. She works directly with local farmers and highlights the lovely flavors of fresh seasonal produce. They're gluten free, there are no additives, dyes, waxes or binders. And they have mouth watering combinations like serrano ginger, lemongrass or habanero carrot curry or even whiskey smoked ghost, which was featured on Hot Ones. So head on over to marshallshot sauce.com that's Marshall's H A U T E S a u c e.com and see all the available sauces and spice blends. Oh, that's right. Sarah's created spice packets by dehydrating and freeze drying actual produce so you can impart flavor to your food with more vegetables. But that's a story for another day. Find all of these delicious creations@marshallshot sauce.com and enter Haute Joy. That's one word, capital H A U T E capital J O Y. One word at checkout for 20% off. That's haute joy at checkout for 20% off. And now back to the show.

C (46:54)

So we're going to move on to answering our hotline question for the week, which is conveniently about scaling up cocktails. Sarah, can you read the question?

B (47:03)

Hello. This question is for the Joy of Cooking. I'm hosting a party and want to pre batch some cocktails so I can easily pour a balanced drink, perhaps with fun garnish. Any suggestions? On a side note, I have a memory of my grandma and her sister drinking Joy tea. When they got together, we called it Giggle tea. Love the pod.

C (47:21)

Before we answer the question, John, do you want to share a little bit about what, what is Joy Tea?

D (47:26)

So yeah, I actually I had to call my father Ethan to get the full story on this. This recipe was developed, I guess in the maybe late 80s, Long island iced tea. A lot of people enjoyed it, looked down upon it, but it is, you know, people were enjoying it or what have you. And so, you know, his friend and mentor, Sasha Vershagin, I think I'm getting his name right. Really got Ethan into infusing vodkas. And I think that just one night they had this idea that they wanted to actually make a cocktail that was tea based that, you know, would kind of scratch that itch, that Long Island Iced tea was satisfying. Now that's it.

C (48:04)

What's the recipe, though?

D (48:05)

What's joy is you're infusing vodka with black tea for, I mean, you could do it for as little as two hours and then like, you know, you can go further than that depending on like how bitter you're okay with it.

C (48:18)

Having that body tannins.

D (48:20)

Yeah. I feel like in the book now we say like a max of two days, but yeah, two hours is perfectly fine. And so it's just that. And it's diluted with a little bit of water, a little bit of simple syrup, shaken, then served over ice with a lemon slice.

C (48:34)

So pretty simple.

D (48:35)

Very, very simple.

C (48:36)

But giggle.

B (48:36)

Aside from the infusion, my plan was I was going to make it for us. But, you know, I just got back and I thought, because I had looked at the recipe before, but I thought you made the simple syrup with the tea. And so I was like, oh, I'll just make it. But then I read the recipe and it was like, you have to let it sit and if you don't, it'll be bitter. So I knew that I, you know, I didn't want to mess it up because I was like, it says it's going to be bitter basically if I do it the way that I was going to do it. So I didn't want to make you guys a bad drink. So I didn't make it, but had full intention of making it for you.

D (49:07)

I just remember, like, during that era, I would spend the school years here with my mom and then I would go to Ethan's during the summer. And for like years and years, the freezer just had at least five or six, like different vodka infusion experiments that he had done probably for like, you know, for joy. But yeah, just kind of brought some weird memories back.

C (49:28)

The vodka freezer. Jim, I think you should take a first stab at this question. So batching a cocktail for a party that has a fun garnish what would you pick?

E (49:39)

So this is very easy for me. The quick answer to this is punch. David Wonderich, who wrote, he just wrote the sort of comic book history of the cocktail. He edited the Oxford Companion of Spirits in Cocktails. He wrote a biography of Jerry Thomas called Imbibe. And the second book from that was called the Delight and Dangers of the Flowing Bowl. And David has been an ardent advocate of punch for a very long time. And it's just, I always say, like, if you are having a party, mixing a bowl of punch is just. I do it for every gathering I have for a couple reasons. One is that it becomes like a sort of hive of activity where, like where the bowl is, you. You get small glasses. You don't want people walking around giant glasses of punch with small glasses. People kind of have to like, almost pollinate the bowl. They have to keep coming back to refill their cups. And I find that just, it's. If you want to, like, for instance, like, if you're a Negroni person, like, if you want to have a, you know, place where you're going to make people Negronis, like, the punch bowl will take the heat off of your Negroni station. So it's like you put the punch bowl in the living room and you're propped up in the kitchen making your Negronis. A lot of people at a party will try a punch if it's really good. Like, they'll, they're, they're the sort of person that, like, they don't want to cross the streams. So they're. So they're not going to try your Negroni because they started with punch. And so I would just say, like, very simple. And especially because we're talking about tea. Tea is such an ingredient in punch. Like, my manual has a book in the rum chapter called Green Tea Punch. It has sencha and mint lime of like a sort of pot stilled white rum, a little sugar. You get a big clear ice cube and put that in a bowl and it's just, it's kind of heaven. Garnish it with nutmeg.

C (51:23)

Yeah, Punch is really fun. And that David Wondrich, the punch book is fantastic. I think anyone who's interested in cocktails should, should have that book for sure.

D (51:31)

One quote that he, he unearthed from like a correspondence that he found. No, I guess it was like a journal. And it was like this guy talking about basically like pandemonium, like public drunkenness on Christmas and he's like, had eggnog, was a good day. I can't remember the I wish I could recall the whole quote, but it was great. We actually had some of his punch one. One time. It was Chatham Artillery Punch.

E (51:56)

He's such a great punch maker.

C (51:58)

Yeah, it was a great punch.

E (51:59)

He likes making these really baroque, complicated punches. And so, like, my green tea punch is very easy. And I was kind of hell bent for over a decade. I helped create a rum brand called Banks. And that was. I was really trying to bring punch back. The sad and somewhat tragic thing, both for myself and Dave, is that the cocktail is really an individualistic thing where I feel like if you go to a bar, one of the ways you sort of fly your flag of, like, who you are is what you drink. So it's like, you know, someone who's drinking the Long Island Iced Tea versus the person drinking the Sazerac versus the White Russian drinker or the, like, bottle of Bud drinker, you're sort of sending out, like, this is what I'm all about to everyone else. And I find we live in a world that is dominated by that desire to be individualistic. So I find that in a public setting, like in a bar, I feel like punch. A lot of bars have not adopted punch because it's just not what people come to bars and restaurants for. But at a party, the whole goal of hosting people is to try to bring them together. Hopefully, as a host, you're inviting people. Maybe they're not all gonna be best friends after coming to your party, but hopefully, like, everyone will talk to each other for a little while. And I think punch really brings everybody together.

B (53:12)

We used to have that bar downtown, Valentine's, and they would serve punch at it. I think it's the only bar in Portland I ever remember that happening. But they did that where they had little tiny glasses and they had a punch and they would. The bartenders would make a different one every time. But that's sort of how it was. It was a really small bar. They had, like a little upstairs loft. And it just created this vibe where everybody would hang out and have the punch and it was just so fun. And you'd get, like, cozy with your buddies and you'd have your punch. And it. It really did do that. And I wish it was still here.

C (53:43)

I don't.

B (53:43)

I don't know what's there now. It's gone. But.

E (53:45)

And for an event like my event in New York, like, I made a punch because I wasn't sure how busy I'd be. And it's like, worst case scenario, you hand the ladle over to the guests and you're like, I'm gonna be making these martinis or, you know, doing my Irish coffee over here. You can have your ladle yourself some more if you'd like it.

C (54:00)

Yeah. That is a really nice thing about punch versus, like, even a bash cocktail usually have. There has to be some intervention that you have to do or like, it has to be served in a certain way or there has to be ice or you have to shake it. So like, yeah, punch is a really, really easy idea for a party.

B (54:15)

And I think in that the, instead of the garnish, the, the tiny, cute glass is the thing that fancy, you know.

C (54:23)

Yeah.

E (54:23)

And it's something that, like, if you're a nice person, like Camper English has written a really beautiful little book on ice. And clear ice is something that, like, I think when you make drinks at home or even in a bar, I always say we taste with our eyes first. So, like, you really like the opportunity to do a really cool, clear ice block is gonna like, that's gonna like blow people's hair back. And I think to your point, like, you don't need to have some like banana dolphin on, you know, on like your, on your. If your drink is good, it doesn't need a garish garnish because it's like, to me, like an overwrought garnish is like, like for instance, like the Wisconsin Bloody Mary with the like hot dogs and tater tots in it. Like, that is like a distraction from like probably using terrible vodka and a not really well made mix. So I feel like to me, I love a good garnish, but it's typically a performative distraction from like, in someone who's like, not confident with the liquid.

D (55:18)

Oh, this is reminding me of a question that you wanted to ask that was Wisconsin cocktail specific.

C (55:24)

I was going to ask you. So I didn't realize until recently that Wisconsin kind of has its own version of the old fashioned. We were talking to a friend who's from Wisconsin and they were telling us about this and could you talk a little bit about that?

E (55:36)

Yeah. So Wisconsin is a magical place that is unlike any other state in the union. The weird sense of like, performative shame that most Americans feel about their drinking habit is. Does not exist in Wisconsin. And people drink a lot and all the time without any shame. And they have great time and I love them for that. And that's where I became an adult and went to college and learned how to bartend. And the, the sort of like signature drink of Wisconsin is The Old Fashioned, but in Wisconsin, they make it with brandy instead of with whiskey. And the. The typical prep there is what's called in the cocktail world the newfangled prep, which is more of a cobbler. I was taught to make an Old Fashioned by taking a half orange wheel and adding a couple of cherries and adding a bar spoon of super fine sugar and adding a few dashes of Angostura bitters, and then kind of muddling that in the glass and then pouring a healthy amount of brandy. At many of the bars I worked at, this was not a fine cognac. This was a. I won't say what brandy it was, but it was a brandy, an American brandy that would get covered with ice, and then in some places, it might get, like, stirred a little bit or shaken. But in Wisconsin, your brandy Old Fashioned gets topped either with soda, with Sprite, or if you're fancy, you have soda and Sprite. So that's called a press. And then a lot of bars will then garnish it with an orange and a cherry. But many of the bars I worked at, also you would ask the. The more sort of exurban and rural members of Wisconsin would like, perhaps like, pickled mushrooms and other pickled vegetables could be added to that as well. Wow.

C (57:23)

My brain is trying to imagine the flavors together. The drink sounds delicious.

E (57:28)

It's sort of like a cherry Coke for adults.

C (57:30)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (57:31)

Sounds fun.

C (57:32)

Yeah, it sounds good. I hope that answered your question. I think making a punch sounds like an awesome idea. There are quite a few, well, several punch recipes. Enjoy. Or you should seek out Jim Meehan's book for the green tea punch, which sounds amazing. John, would you care to introduce our Joy Scouts recipe of the week?

D (57:51)

Sure. Just because Jim's our guest, and I thought that this. This is like a new cocktail for the 2019 edition. It's called the Penicillin. So it's a fairly recent cocktail invention, but it's also one that kind of builds on just a basic whiskey sour and also has, like, hot toddy flavors. So you have some muddled ginger. I mean, we muddle the ginger. I think that some people make a syrup. Like, you know, if they're doing, like, quantity, you would want to make a syrup, but, yeah, just muddled lemon and ginger and add some honey, and then you get a blended Scotch. You shake that with some ice, pour it into a glass, and then like a little float of a peaty Scotch.

C (58:32)

I love that drink. It's a. I love the peaty Scotch smell on top of everything. It's is so delicious.

D (58:39)

That is on page 24. But if you don't feel like you want to invest in two different types of scotch, the joy tea recipe is on page 22.

C (58:51)

If you have a topic, ingredient or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. We would love to hear from you. Next week's topic comes from our caller.

A (59:04)

Hi there. I'm going to tell you how much I enjoy your show. Requested information about your history of the Joy of Cooking. And you might be interested that I got my copy in 1966 from Jeff Rombauer. I had a signed copy which is dearly loved and sitting on my shelf held together with a GoPro strap because two layers of tape that we're holding covers on have given up the ghost after all these years. My version is from 1964. Jeff and I went to high school together and he gave this to me and several other girls in our class that copies when we graduated. And it was one of the nicest gifts I've ever gotten.

C (59:44)

That's an awesome. It's not really a question, but thank you for calling in and telling us that story. And I love that you said that your book has given up the ghost because this is an episode that's going to air around Halloween and so we're going to talk about cookbooks that we've loved to death in our next episode.

D (60:01)

Also, kudos to Jeff Rombauer for giving girls in his class copies of Joy of Cooking. Never would have thought of that.

B (60:09)

You didn't do that.

D (60:10)

I did not do that.

B (60:11)

No.

C (60:14)

Maybe old fashioned for the times.

D (60:16)

Yeah.

C (60:17)

I don't know if I would have appreciated someone giving me a guy in my class giving me a cookbook.

D (60:23)

Yeah, it's. It's a little. We should talk, Jeff. I want to know more.

C (60:28)

All right, what are we. What's everybody cooking this week or thinking about eating or wanting to eat? John, I'll start with you.

D (60:37)

Chicken chili verde, I think is on our agenda. We have a bunch of the green chilies. Just. It's endless. We have a lot of green chilies right now frozen that we have to get through before I can stock up again for the coming winter.

C (60:50)

And we just pulled up all of our tomatillo plants because the rain is here. The rain has arrived. And so we have tomatillos.

D (60:57)

We also have enough green tomatoes that I think we might want to do some chow. Chow maybe.

E (61:03)

Cool.

C (61:03)

Yeah, I'll do that. I kind of need suggestions for bland food right now, which is sad to. Sad to say.

D (61:10)

I cannot provide these.

C (61:11)

I know you're not good at bland food. So if anybody has suggestions for a sensitive stomach, that would be awesome. I also wanted to talk very briefly about something I set up today, which is we created a Joy of Cooking virtual storefront on bookshop.org and all of the books that we talk about on our podcast and all of the books written by our guests on the podcast are in our little bookshop.org shop. We get a small commission from that, which would be awesome, to help fund the podcast. So if you're interested in buying any of these books, Please go through bookshop.org shop joyofcooking to find all the books that we are talking about and cooking from.

B (61:57)

I feel like I'll become our best customer.

C (62:00)

I mean, if you're gonna buy it anyway, just. Yeah, go through Bookshop.

D (62:04)

Or if you're local, go to Vivian.

C (62:06)

Yeah, go to Vivian if you're local. What are you cooking or eating this week, Jim?

E (62:11)

I think because I gotta Talk to Joshua McFadden on Sunday. It's going to be a big pasta week.

C (62:15)

Could be worse.

E (62:16)

So big. Yeah, we're definitely making the spaghetti with meatballs. On Saturday, we're having one of my colleagues over and I think we'll probably make a salad from six seasons. So that's going to happen for sure.

C (62:27)

Awesome. Before we wrap, where can listeners follow you?

E (62:31)

I would say that I'm on social media ixography on Instagram and that would probably be the best place. I try to keep that updated when I'm on the road or doing something or have have a hot take that I feel like sharing with the people.

C (62:44)

And we'll put links to all of that in our show notes.

E (62:46)

Thank you.

C (62:47)

Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram at thejoyofcooking. Stay tuned for next week where we will talk about cookbooks that we've loved to death. And don't forget to make this week's recipe, the penicillin on page 24. Call in with questions, hopes, history, or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

B (63:20)

And we could not do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation Production House. Thanks to Dave Dresky, our production coordinator, and Haley Bowers, our audio engineer and today's producer, Dirk Marshall. If you love the stories we bring you each week, please consider supporting us on Patreon. As an independent media company, your support is absolutely essential. It allows us to continue creating high quality professional episodes that amplify the voices of women, small business owners, writers, artists and creatives and keep their stories free from commercial pressure. By becoming a Patreon member, you're not just supporting us, you're investing in the future of independent media. Please visit patreon.com backslash the joy of Creation Production House to join our community today. Thank you for listening and supporting our podcast Dreams.