Kate McDermott: A Casual Culinary Chat About Meringue.

Summary

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The Joy of Cooking Podcast

Episode: "Kate McDermott: A Casual Culinary Chat About Meringue"

Hosts: John Becker, Megan Scott, Shannon Larson
Guest: Kate McDermott, Pie Expert & Author (Art of the Pie)
Date: November 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

This week, the Joy of Cooking Podcast welcomes Kate McDermott—celebrated pie instructor, James Beard finalist, and author of Art of the Pie—for a lively, warm, and knowledge-packed conversation. The discussion roams from mushroom foraging to roast chicken rituals, deep dives into the nostalgic magic of pie, and, most importantly, all things meringue: how to make it, make it last, and make it spectacular. Throughout, listeners are treated to culinary wisdom, kitchen stories, practical pie tips, and some memorable moments of food and family.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Mushroom Foraging & Seasonal Cooking

• [00:27-05:12] The hosts recount their Pacific Northwest mushroom-foraging adventure, braving wet boots for chanterelles and lobster mushrooms. There are ideas for risotto, "lobster" rolls (with lobster mushrooms), and roasting or dry-sautéing to concentrate flavors.
• Kitchen Ritual: Using mushrooms for risotto and considering new mushroom recipes inspired by foraging successes.
• Megan on Prepping for Family: “But tonight we're going to cook some of the white chanterelles... John, you were going to roast.”
  – Megan Scott [03:56]

2. Roast Chicken Rituals & Kitchen Snacks

• [05:21-08:24] Shannon, John, and Megan talk about the weekly roast chicken (Joy Scouts recipe of the week, p. 407): favorite parts (oysters, wingtips, tail), kitchen snacking habits, and leftovers strategy.
• John's Recreations: “I made a khao soi ramen for lunch today with some leftover chicken. Some. A Little red curry paste, a little curry powder topped with chopped pickled mustard greens...”
  – John Becker [07:08]

3. Kate McDermott Joins the Table

Joy of Cooking Legacy

• [13:47-16:08] Kate describes her lifelong relationship with Joy of Cooking—her mother’s wartime edition, childhood fudge-making memories, and receiving her own copy at 19.
• Memorable Quote: “It's always been the go to reference of I want to make this or that. Where do I go? This is where I go...one of the books that I really learned to cook.”
  – Kate McDermott [15:25]

Pie Camp Origins & Philosophy

• [17:38-21:49] The serendipitous beginnings of Kate’s renowned Pie Camp—how an informal kitchen lesson led to an acclaimed teaching career.
• Viral Pie Moment: “I put up an arbitrary number, like 19 [classes], and...every single one of the classes has filled in like five or six hours. It blew my mind.”
  – Kate McDermott [20:01]

Why Do We Love | Fear Pie?

• [21:49-24:26] Pie’s connection to memory, family, and nostalgia; why it feels intimidating but shouldn’t.
• Kate’s Wisdom: “Pie is a carrier of our memories...If you think that pie is going to be hard, then it will be hard...if you think, I'm learning a skill, I'm learning this...it’s getting easier every time, then, yeah, that's how things work.”
  – Kate McDermott [22:17]

The Three Keys to Pie Making

• [24:32-26:39]
  1. Chill everything, especially yourself.
  2. Keep your boundaries—don’t overfill!
  3. Vent—literally and emotionally.
• “They're kind of like my rules for both pie and life.”
  – Kate McDermott [26:39]

Lifelong Learning as a Pie Practitioner

• [27:11-29:20]
  “The more I know and the more I learn about pie, I realize how much more there is...I'm not an expert. I'm a practitioner of a craft and as a practitioner, I'm always practicing.”
  – Kate McDermott [27:11]

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4. Gluten-Free Pie Crusts: Lessons & Techniques

• [30:16-34:44]
  • Gluten-free is not hard, just different.
  • Key: More liquid absorbs in, dough should be used quickly, and rolling between two pieces of plastic wrap or silpats works well.
• Evolving Methods: Kate hints at newly developed gluten-free techniques, soon to be shared.
• On Cup-for-Cup Blends: Early options were limited, but now there are diverse, better gluten-free flour blends.

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5. Apple Pie Deep-Dive: Shrinking & Slumping Solutions

• [34:44-41:07]
  • Shrinkage problem: If apples collapse under the unyielding crust, pre-cook the apples or just avoid sky-high pies, and cut apples in bite-sized pieces.
• Variety matters: “A wonderful thing to put a big variety of apples in a pie. If you can...pick one or two of everything and cut those up.”
  – Kate McDermott [36:51]
• Best apple for pie: “If there is just one apple that I could choose...it would be a Gravenstein...I think that's the apple that poets must write about.”
  – Kate McDermott [40:20]

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6. Senses in Baking: Sizzlewomp & Other Signs

• [41:07-44:12]
  • Sizzlewomp: The unique bubbling and “heartbeat” every fruit pie has when done—listen for it!
  • “Every fruit has a different wump. So apples have that deeper whomp. Whomp. But cherries, a thinner juice. So they're all different...I just find it fascinating to listen to them.”
    – Kate McDermott [41:13]
  • “If I can smell the pie wafting through my house, I know that I'm 80% baked.”
    – Kate McDermott [43:26]

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7. About Meringue (Main Segment)

• [48:16-53:41]

Caller Question [48:24]:
Q: What’s the trick to sky-high meringue that holds its shape and doesn’t shrink or weep?

Kate’s Overview of Meringue Styles

• French meringue: Egg whites + sugar, but “doesn’t hold its shape for very long...should be eaten within a few hours.”
• Swiss meringue: Made over water bath, “a sturdier meringue. It holds longer.”
• Italian meringue: Hot sugar syrup into egg whites—“It’s the sturdiest, holds shape, glossy and marshmallowy.”
• For aquafaba: Works (vegan), but behaves more like French.
• “Just make as much as you can and pile it high. You can either, you know, put it under the broiler or use your blowtorch.”
  – Kate McDermott [50:38]

Megan & John’s Additional Tips

• Megan: “My go to for pie has become Italian meringue because it is so pillowy and glossy and like marshmallowy, and it just holds up so nicely. The only downside is you need a thermometer.” [51:48]
• Stabilized French: Add cornstarch/water gel for a more stable topping.
• Avoid overbeating: Makes meringue grainy and dull; keep it glossy.
• [53:41] Kate: “And it just. It looks funny. You lose that beautiful luster.”

Bonus: Bake Off Love

• “[The Great British Bake Off] It was meringue week! Was so much fun to watch.”
  – Shannon/Kate [53:49]

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8. Pie as Infinite Possibility & Joy Scout Recipe Assignment

• [54:07-55:29]
  • Frangipane fruit tarts (“that's my type of recipe...there's an infinite variety of what you can come up with”)
  • Joy Scouts Recipe Assignment: Lemon Meringue Pie, page 681

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9. Pie Science: The Secret of Lemon Meringue Pie Stability

• [56:19-57:25]
  • Boil those eggs: To destroy the alpha-amylase enzyme or the custard will liquefy:
  • “Be sure that when you are cooking the eggs in there that you really do get them to a boil in there because there's a enzyme…if that's not killed off...it starts eating it up...and it liquefies.”
    – Kate McDermott [56:19]

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10. What Everybody’s Cooking This Week

• [58:20-59:37]
  • Shannon: Annual spooky movie pizza night and pumpkin carving.
  • Megan & John: Lemon ricotta pasta with foraged chanterelles; borscht with smoked brisket.
  • Kate: Prepping for a Pot Pie class—chicken and blackberry pies.

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11. Food Access & Community Action

• [60:02-61:00]
  Megan encourages listeners to support local food banks financially or by stocking local free pantries—practical community solidarity in hard times.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

“Pie is a carrier of our memories...it's not hard. Anything can be. You're going to succeed at whatever you believe.”
— Kate McDermott [22:17]

“Chill everything—especially yourself.”
— Kate McDermott [24:32]

“I’m not an expert. I’m a practitioner of a craft, and as a practitioner, I’m always practicing.”
— Kate McDermott [29:16]

“Every fruit has a different wump ... I'm just a pie maker.”
— Kate McDermott [41:13, 42:57]

“Just make as much [meringue] as you can and pile it high. You can either, you know, put it under the broiler or use your blowtorch.”
— Kate McDermott [50:38]

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Useful Timestamps

• Mushroom Foraging Chat: 00:27–05:12
• Roast Chicken Rituals: 05:21–08:24
• Kate McDermott Introduction & Joy Memories: 13:47–16:08
• Pie Camp Story: 17:38–21:49
• Three Rules of Pie: 24:32–26:39
• Gluten-Free Pie Dough: 30:16–34:44
• Apple Pie Shrinking Problems: 34:44–41:07
• Sizzlewomp: 41:07–44:12
• Pie Chemistry (Lemon Meringue stability): 56:19–57:25
• Caller Meringue Segment: 48:24–53:41
• Joy Scouts Recipe Assignment: 55:29
• Cooking Plans: 58:20–59:37
• Food Bank Call to Action: 60:02–61:00

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Further Resources

• Kate McDermott:

  • Substack: "Kate McDermott’s Newsletter"
  • Bluesky: @katemcdermott

• This Week’s Joy Scouts Recipe:

  • Lemon Meringue Pie (pg. 681, Joy of Cooking 2019)

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Episode Tone

The tone is joyful, nostalgic, and gently irreverent—blending practical advice with love for the process, for learning, and for sharing food. There's a welcoming, egalitarian sense of, “Yes, you can make this!” and of food as a force for togetherness.

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This episode is a must for bakers of any level, pie enthusiasts, and anyone who needs a boost of kitchen confidence with a side of laughter and heart.

Transcript

[Megan Scott]

Sa.

[Shannon Larson]

Welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for a discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of the Joy of Cooking, kitchen victories and misadventures, and what we're cooking and eating right now. We're glad you've joined us at the table today. I'm Shannon Larson, home cook, Joy of Cooking user and fan, and cold baked sweet potatoes for breakfast enthusiast.

[Megan Scott]

I. I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night. And it's officially hot toddy season. Praise be.

[John Becker]

I'm John Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook. And I dislike cleaning wild mushrooms that were forged in heavy rain because they're soggy and it is very difficult.

[Megan Scott]

That's very topical.

[John Becker]

Uh, yeah, well, I was doing it earlier today.

[Shannon Larson]

So wait, do we all have the same thing written down to talk about?

[Megan Scott]

Mushroom. I mean. Yeah, that was like the most exciting thing I've done all week. Yeah. So we went on a mushroom foraging expedition. It was very wet. Very, very wet.

[Shannon Larson]

It felt like I went swimming in my hiking boots.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, my boots were. I could hear the squishy squidgy sound. Yeah, it was. It was a lot.

[John Becker]

Didn't you take them off and there was actually standing water in the boots?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it turns out I. So I ordered. I've actually ordered a pair of proper waterproof shoes. Oh, it's. It's only taken me. What? How many years have we lived in the Pacific Northwest now?

[John Becker]

Yeah, I remember there was another mushroom foraging expedition that we were on, and I think our producer Sarah was wearing muck boots.

[Megan Scott]

And.

[John Becker]

And I looked at them. I was like, oh, that's such a great idea.

[Megan Scott]

And then proceeded to not for six.

[John Becker]

Years, just have not followed through on that.

[Sarah]

Those boots are bog boots and they.

[Megan Scott]

Are waterproof, and I learned about them from my farmer friends. Next time I have them on order, they're coming. Oh, good. But we were successful. Shannon, what mushrooms did you find?

[Shannon Larson]

We found chanterelles and lobsters, and we used the chanterelles immediately on Sunday night for risotto, and it was the best risotto I've ever made.

[Megan Scott]

Mushroom is my favorite risotto.

[Shannon Larson]

It's so good.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

You guys found the purple chanterelles, violet chanterells.

[John Becker]

Yeah, violet chanterelles, white chanterelles, and then like three tiny normal golden chanterelles.

[Megan Scott]

And a bunch of lobsters.

[John Becker]

Yeah, a bunch of Lobsters. I was really excited about those, and I, you know, because there appeared to be a lot of them, and they seemed good enough, but then we got home and I don't know, some of them just kind of fell apart when I started. I started cleaning them. So, you know, we. We were more discerning when we got home.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it was just a soggy time, but, you know, that's part of it.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah. The lobsters are fun to find because they're just so bright red.

[Megan Scott]

They're so pretty.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah. When you find them, you're just like, oh, they're like treasures. Oh, they're all like treasures.

[Megan Scott]

But I want to make a lobster mushroom roll, so. Like lobster roll, but with the mushrooms.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, that's a good idea.

[John Becker]

Connecticut. Am I getting this right? Connecticut style or Maine style?

[Megan Scott]

I. I can't remember the difference.

[John Becker]

One has butter, the other has mayonnaise. I know that.

[Megan Scott]

I like the butter.

[John Becker]

One butter, I think. I feel like the butter would be best.

[Kate McDermott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

With the mushrooms.

[John Becker]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. But tonight we're going to cook some of the white chanterelles. John, you were going to roast.

[John Becker]

Yeah. You know, they were a little waterlogged. I mean, when we were out, it was really wet. And so, of course, the mushrooms, you know, know, absorbed a lot of that and was thinking about kind of par. Roasting them. Either that or, you know, you published a recipe that was like, for dry sauteed mushrooms. I was thinking that might be interesting to try.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Just to cook off some of that water.

[John Becker]

Right.

[Megan Scott]

Concentrate them.

[John Becker]

Yeah. It's a dry skillet. This would be with regular button mushrooms that you were using. So I'm not sure how it would work with the, you know, weird, oddly shaped chanterelles, but, yeah, just weight it down in the skillet. And then when it gets kind of nice and brown.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, a little brown.

[John Becker]

A little brown. You turn them over, maybe do it again. And then after that you add some butter.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, that's what we tend to do with our mushrooms every year.

[Megan Scott]

So that was very fun. And we're prepping. We're kind of prepping for my s. So my sister's getting married next week, and her rehearsal dinner is on Halloween, so she's having a costume party, which is super fun. But I'm dressing up as a mushroom. One of the, you know, red with the white spots, the amanita muscaria. And then John is going to be a mushroom hunter. So I feel like we were practicing for our Halloween costume.

[John Becker]

There are no implications to that at all. I'M certainly not going to harvest you.

[Megan Scott]

And you won't get wet.

[Shannon Larson]

Hopefully it'll be nice and dry.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it'll be nice and dry. It'll be indoors. And before we move on, I wanted to talk about the Joy Scouts recipe of the week, which was roast chicken on page 407. Roast chicken is great with mushrooms. I feel like that's how I'm gonna bridge this. What's your favorite part of the roast chicken? Like, when you roast a chicken, what part do you want right away?

[Shannon Larson]

The oysters. Like, immediately, as soon as we bring it out of the oven. Well, when we can touch the chicken, then that's the first thing John always does, is he grabs the oysters and we each eat it and then we. Then he, like, takes it apart. So what about you?

[John Becker]

Wait, you. You grab him before you take. That's a trick.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, he, like, digs his fingers and just, like takes them from the carcass.

[Megan Scott]

Whoa. Yeah, that's a dedication.

[Shannon Larson]

We really like them. Well, it's also just like a treat because it takes a while to roast the chicken and you're like, smelling it and you're looking forward to it. Yeah. And at that point I'm just starving. So.

[John Becker]

Yeah, you go for the low hanging fruit.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah. I'm a. I'm a wingtip person. And the. And the tail, I like the tail and the wing tip. Those come off right away and I'm snacking on those. And I like them when they get crispy. So we don't. We don't trust. We don't trust the wing tip. So they're tucked in because I want them to get dark brown and really like crispy. So that's my kitchen snack.

[Shannon Larson]

You just chew on them?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, just exactly.

[John Becker]

It's more of a crunchy, you know, not too much chewing involves just like breaking off little bits of cartilage. Crispy cartilage. Salty cartilage. Yum.

[Megan Scott]

So we usually also eat the dark meat first on day one because I think that the white meat tastes better when it's left over.

[Shannon Larson]

Well, we do the same thing. We eat the dark meat right after it's roasted, like for dinner, and then we save the breast for other meals throughout the week, like chicken salad or whatever it might be, because the dark meat tastes really good right out of the oven.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, agreed.

[John Becker]

Actually, I just used some leftover roast chicken. Peter Kim got me thinking about ramen experiments, and so I made a khao soi ramen for lunch today with some leftover chicken. Some. A Little red curry paste, a little curry powder topped with chopped pickled mustard greens. And oh yeah, I reserved some of the ramen noodles and toasted them in a skillet, like all crushed up.

[Megan Scott]

So that's a good idea. Yeah, that is good.

[John Becker]

It was good. I have to say, patting myself on the back.

[Megan Scott]

See all the things you can do with a roast chicken if you, if you just make one, it's really easy to make. There's lots of tricks out there for, you know, like hacks for making the best roast chicken ever. But roasting a chicken is really, really, it can be so simple. All you have to do is salt it, put it in the oven at like 400 degrees even. You don't even have to do that high. And just until. Cook it till it's done. Yeah, that's it.

[John Becker]

Or you can make a hobby of it. Either way, that's true.

[Shannon Larson]

In the winter, I think we roast a chicken like once a week or every week or two just because it's a nice staple to have too.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

So easy.

[Megan Scott]

So if you make the roast chicken Recipe on page 407, please tag us at the Joy of Cooking on Instagram. We would love to see what you.

[John Becker]

Make and if you do anything spectacular with the leftovers, definitely want to see that.

[Megan Scott]

This week we would like to welcome Kate McDermott to the table. Kate is the creator and founder of Art of the Pie and a James Beard finalist for her writing and recipes. Since 2008, she has taught the time honored craft of pie making to over 7,000 people in her highly popular in person pie camps and virtual classes. One of the most highly sought after culinary instructors nationally, Kate is widely acknowledged as one of the best makers of pie ever and has been called food rock star and pie whisperer. Kate, welcome to the table.

[Kate McDermott]

Well, thank you for having me here. I'm delighted to, to be here. I have to tell you, I was really enjoying that conversation too.

[Megan Scott]

I know. I feel like we should allow our guests to chime in, but I'm going to ask you now, what have you made this week that you're excited about or eaten this week that you're excited about?

[Kate McDermott]

Oh, well, I made a great pot of brown rice and it was just so comforting. And you know, you do that and then you can make a lot of things with it. I'm one of those who likes to make, have things ready so that I can throw things together. This actually, along with the brown rice, I had some chicken thighs in the fridge and I had some leftover green enchilada sauce. I had some tomato sauce, I had some artichoke hearts and I had some shallots that were from something else that I had made. And I said here's the slow cooker. I just threw everything in and I had to be gone for the day. I had no idea what I was going to come home to. And it was excellent.

[Megan Scott]

I love it when that happens when you're, you're not sure what's going to happen and it's, it's a good thing.

[John Becker]

Slow cooker roulette.

[Kate McDermott]

Exactly.

[Megan Scott]

Also brown rice. Brown rice with butter and soy sauce is, it's a delicacy. It's so good.

[John Becker]

Have you tried the in between brown and white rice, the haiga rice where it's like semi polished I guess is the technique.

[Kate McDermott]

No, I don't know about that rice. I'm going to write this down and look forward that. Is that H A I H A.

[John Becker]

I G A. Yeah. Brown rice is excellent. It doesn't cook quite as fast as white rice. This is a nice in between alternative just because it cooks in the same time as white rice basically. But it does have some of the.

[Megan Scott]

Germ on there and it has a nutty.

[Kate McDermott]

It shakes hands with both sides.

[John Becker]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Very friendly rice.

[Kate McDermott]

Can we go back to mushrooms for a second?

[Megan Scott]

Absolutely.

[Kate McDermott]

Okay. So I was thinking about this I made and also the wedding. Okay. These two, these two things and costumes. All of these things. Okay. So when my son got married, my son and daughter in law, they had a four day snow bash east of Seattle in Clay Ellum, this little area. And I catered for four days for we were all under one roof. They found this great place that could house 60 of us. It had two kitchens, three ovens, two refrigerators, an ice maker. It was, it was fabulous. And I along with making, I made chicken pies for everybody. And I did it with leeks and mushrooms and potatoes and some herbe de Provence. It was so good. But the thing that was wonderful was seeing the costume party. We had costume parties. So I would either get up in the morning and be greeted by, you know, unicorns or whatever, dogs, you know, dog costumes, just all sorts of things. And I never knew who was going to be at the table or who was in the costume. It was so much fun.

[John Becker]

That sounds like quite the undertaking. What were you responsible for when you said you were catering? Like just everything. Everything. Wow.

[Kate McDermott]

Breakfast, lunch and dinner for 60 people.

[John Becker]

That is education.

[Kate McDermott]

Three days for them, four days for those of us who are putting it on.

[Megan Scott]

Wow. Yeah, that's so much work.

[Kate McDermott]

Oh, I did a lot of prep. I have a freezer. I was very well prepared.

[Shannon Larson]

Were you in costume at all?

[Kate McDermott]

I came as the. I came in my ceremonial dress that I have gone to, that I wear for all major occasions that I made. So that was. Some would say it was my. My 1960s.

[Megan Scott]

Did you know the same family that taught America how to cook also taught California how to make world class Chardonnay. The same joy and passion for life that inspired Irma Rombauer to write the Joy of Cooking inspired her great nephew, Kerner Rombauer to establish Rombauer vineyards, founded in 1980 in the Napa Valley. Rombauer has been producing acclaimed wines from California ever since. While they're famous for their iconic California Chardonnay, Rombauer crafts a diverse collection of delicious wines that bring joy to your table. Ready to taste the legacy? Visit rombauer.com joy or use code joypod all caps for 15 off your order. That's R O M B A U E-R.com joy or code joypod all caps. Kate, what is your relationship to the Joy of Cooking?

[Kate McDermott]

I would say it's a long one. I recall my mom, she had her copy, her wartime copy of the Joy of Cooking, and.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, you have it.

[Kate McDermott]

I do.

[Megan Scott]

Beautiful. And for listeners who cannot see, it's a blue. What is that pattern that.

[John Becker]

I've called it gingham, but I think that's wrong.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's not.

[Kate McDermott]

I don't think it's gingham. It's like a diamond pattern on the front, you know?

[Dave Dresky]

Yeah.

[Kate McDermott]

Blue. It's. It's a pretty blue. And what I recall in there, the earliest things I really recall making with her is fudge. We made fudge. And it was the fudge in the wartime edition that was chocolate fudge number two, which, if you have that edition, it's on page 736. And I still have the bowl that we made.

[Dave Dresky]

Oh, wow.

[Megan Scott]

That's amazing. I love it. Yeah.

[Kate McDermott]

And I remember that we would make this and go into the room where there was this television, and I think we. I can't remember exactly what we were watching. That sort of fades away. And she'd say, you just have to keep. We just beat it and beat it and beat it and beat it. And we would take turns back and forth. She would have it, I would have it. And she said, you have to keep beating it until the gloss is gone and. And you could hardly get the spoon through anymore. And then she said, oh, it's ready now it was such a treat. And I always remembered that.

[Megan Scott]

That's amazing. I love that memory so much.

[Kate McDermott]

And then the next thing that, with my history of that is in 1972, she gave me my own copy of Joy of Cooking. And she gave it to me on my birthday, on my 19th birthday. So this is this one again. It's falling apart. It's always been the go to reference of I want to make this or that. Where do I go? This is where I go. And I would look. And it was one of the books that I really learned to cook.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. That's our favorite historical edition is the 1964, the blue cover. That was Marian Ron Bauerbecker's first solo edition and has our favorite illustrations of all of the editions.

[Kate McDermott]

It does have the. Let's see the rabbit. The rabbit illustration in there.

[John Becker]

I feel like it says squirrel.

[Megan Scott]

The hair.

[John Becker]

The squirrel.

[Kate McDermott]

Squirrel. The squirrel. Thank you very much. I knew it was something.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

Yeah. People are upset that we replaced it with a rabbit. They want the grotesque squirrel.

[Megan Scott]

But we did. We did meet somebody who has a friend who got the squirrel tattooed on them, and they sent us a photo of the tattoo. And I just admired the commitment to that so much. It's a great. It makes a great tattoo.

[John Becker]

Yeah. Speaking of, so when Marian went off to Vassar for college for a while, I don't think she actually graduated, but I guess that fudge was, like, all the rage at Vassar.

[Megan Scott]

When would that have been? The 40s?

[Kate McDermott]

Was that.

[John Becker]

Yeah, it must have been 30s or something like that. But yeah, there's like a whole. It was a thing, I, I guess to make. To make.

[Megan Scott]

They were making fudge at college?

[John Becker]

Yeah, making fudge at college. It sounds weird. I'm gonna have to do more research. I, I, I did not do any research on that for this, for this recording.

[Kate McDermott]

Well, you didn't expect that I was going to talk about fudge.

[Megan Scott]

Be prepared. So you are a pie baker. I would love for you to tell us about your pie camps.

[Kate McDermott]

Oh, where to begin?

[John Becker]

How did it begin?

[Kate McDermott]

I was living in Seattle and making pie. Just, you know, you make pie every once in a while for your family or friends. And I remember I was married at the time, and my husband then said, can you make an apple pie? And I said, well, sure. And I made a pie. And he had some comments about it. And what I wanted was for him to taste a bite of the pie and say, oh, my darling, this is the best pie. You make the best pie. And I didn't quite hear that. So I kept playing around with doughs, ratios, fats, all sorts of things, varieties of apples, refractometers, all sorts of things. Until one day he said, I don't think this could get any, any better. So great in his stature in the food world, he said, one day, well, a few people are going to come over because they want to learn how to make the pie that you're making, the apple pie. And I said, okay. So a very informal class happened in my kitchen and it was two food writers and a chef. And one of the food writers wrote a two part piece on this making pie with me and it won awards. And at the end of the class, these three folks said, we had so much fun. You made it so easy and the pie is great, you should be teaching this. So I went to my computer and found iWeb, a program where I could make a website. And I figured out how to load it up on the Internet, set some dates up and stood back, had no idea what was going to happen. And people started coming and press started writing and magazines started coming and agents and editors started contacting me and it was just beyond my wildest dreams. Probably one of the craziest things was setting up a few classes and having. There was something that used to be called daily candy, I recall. And they said, we're going to feature Art of the Pie. They said, you'll want to add some more classes, make sure you have some. So I said, what, three, four? They said, no, a few more. So I put up an arbitrary number, like 19, I think that was the figure. I don't know why 19. But that's what it ended up being. And then I went off to go to Eastern Washington to do something. And when I got there and got settled, I looked at my email, all these reservations were coming in and every single one of the classes has filled in like five or six hours. It blew my mind. So I kind of thought maybe this is something that I should take a little more seriously. And that began this crazy journey of this business which I feel so fortunate to still. That was in 2009, 2008, when that first class happened in my little kitchen. And this is now what, 20, 25? And people are still coming after the day classes. Then people said, we want more, we want more. What else do you have? So I came up with this crazy idea of I camp, which is a multi day experience. And that has been probably one of the. All of it has been a great joy for me and I'm not done yet.

[Megan Scott]

There's a real hunger for pieces. That's kind of. I mean, it kind of goes again. I. I guess, you know, it seems like the trend in cooking is always easier, always faster, but pie doesn't really fit that mold. I mean, there's easier pies and there's harder pies to make, but it's not a quick food. It's something that requires you to spend time and care and attention making. Why do you think there's such a hunger for pieces?

[Kate McDermott]

I think because it is such a basic thing. It's when. When I talk to people about cake versus pie, and they'll say, yeah, cake, it's very celebratory. But you say, hi, and they go, oh, my grandmother or my aunt or my uncle, they used to make this. I remember a time, and I think there is something that is. Pie is a carrier of our memories, and we learn to make a dough, and you're rolling it out, and then you're putting yourself into this filling. And I also think that pie gets a bad rap of it's hard. It's not hard. Anything can be. You're going to succeed at whatever you believe. So if you think that PI is going to be hard, then it will be hard for you. But if you think, I'm learning a skill, I'm learning this, and, yes, I need to do a little practicing on this, and it's getting easier every time, then, yeah, that's how. That's how things work.

[Megan Scott]

I do think pie, there's, like a mindset shift you have to go undergo if you're going to make pie. Like, you can't. I mean, in my opinion, you can't be in a huge hurry. You have to stop and think about what you're doing. And really, like, you have to, you know, engage your senses, feel the dough. How does it feel? How does it look? And, yeah, it takes practice to make a really. I mean, but even like a pie that isn't perfect is. That's part of the charm. That's a great pie.

[Kate McDermott]

I agree. And if. I know we have the holidays, you know, the big high pie holidays that come up in the year. Thanksgiving, fourth of July, things like this. If you have a. If you bring a pie and it's not a homemade pie, nobody's gonna say, I'm sorry, you can't come in. That's not a homemade pie. They're gonna say, you brought pie.

[Megan Scott]

What are. What do you think the most important things to know are? As a beginner pie baker, I have.

[Kate McDermott]

Three things that I feel that are important to impart to beginners and experienced pie makers. Number one, keep everything chilled, especially yourself. And that is in a few different ways. Yes, the ingredients. Make sure your fats are chilled. Use ice water. But also think about your environment. A warm, hot kitchen is not ideal for working with cold fats. If your hands are warm, hold ice cubes, dip them in an ice water bath, something like that. The biggest thing is this is just I. This is not rocket science. Yes, you can do it. So chill out. You can do it. So there's that. The part about chilling is yourself. Also. Number two is to keep your boundaries. And in that, I mean, do not overfill the pie pan unless you want a clean the oven pie, which is one that we've all made.

[Megan Scott]

Yes, okay.

[Kate McDermott]

And that's, you know, enough said on that. And the third is to vent. And pie making is a wonderful way to creatively vent. And you can think of that whether in your life or in the artistry of making pie. If it's in your life, here's an opportunity to vent in a very creative way. And venting is something that I think we don't really don't mean to get into the psychology of pie, but it's just kind of a nice thing to think about these three things to chill, keep your boundaries, and vent. And they're kind of like my rules of both pie and life.

[John Becker]

I love how all of those have double or even triple meanings. Venting, double crust pies, but also take out whatever you need to on that dough.

[Kate McDermott]

That's nice. Yeah.

[John Becker]

Speaking of psychology of PI, in the art of the pie, you write at length how pie making has helped you kind of reflect on life. And I was just kind of curious if you could maybe go into that a little bit and like, have you had any recent PI based insights or revelations even that you would like to share?

[Kate McDermott]

Oh, every day I have one. I feel that, first of all, there's so much to know about PI. It's not just here I can make. I make pie. Yes, I do. But the more I know and the more I learn about pie, I realize how much more there is. And it excites me beyond belief, you know, to go down a rabbit hole, which I have been in this rabbit hole for decades now. And I don't seem to be close to leaving the rabbit hole. But I feel that I'm always learning something, even if it's, well, I'm not going to do that again. There's, you know, that's, that's a really Good, Good one. I think at every class I learn something. Yes, there's some basic things that everybody asks, but I learned something at every class. I learned something with every pie I make. Yes, I could do it in my sleep, you know, and make doughs. And I, you know, I probably have it sometimes when it's been the middle of the night and I, oh, I have to get this done and I go out into the kitchen, I'm just, okay, here, I've got everything. And I make a pie and I'm not even really thinking about it because I've done it so often, but I'm still learning recently. What I'm doing now is I've having written three books and two on pie. I have been playing around for a couple decades now with gluten free doughs and I'm still learning. I think the doughs, the gluten free doughs in both books are really good. And I'm still refining and I'm still learning and they're still getting better. And that really is exciting to me. So I love just going into the kitchen and knowing that this is a training ground for me. And I'm not an expert. I'm a practitioner of a craft and as a practitioner, I'm always practicing.

[Megan Scott]

You know, we're big fans of Rombauer Vineyards. They're sponsoring today's episode, actually. But honestly, their wines are fantastic with so many joy of cooking dishes. My current favorite is their Sauvignon Blanc with our Khao Soi Gai recipe. That bright, crisp wine cuts right through the richness of the curry. It's perfect.

[John Becker]

Oh, absolutely. Being Oregonians, we take our Pinot seriously. We're excited about their new Pinot Noir, which pairs beautifully with our chicken jambalaya. The wine has enough body to stand up to all those bold creole flavors.

[Megan Scott]

If you want to try these pairings yourself, head to ronbauer.com joy or use code joypod, all caps for 15% off. That's R O-M-B-A-U-E-R.com joy or code joypod, all caps. I'm really curious about the gluten free pie crust. Do you have any advice for folks who are trying to do gluten free crust? I mean, the nice thing about it is you can't overwork it. So that's a plus, a big plus.

[Kate McDermott]

When I'm teaching gluten free glasses, the first thing I say to folks is, gluten free is not hard, it's just different. So if you remember that to begin with, it kind of takes some of the. Oh my God, it's a gluten free crust and it's going to, you know, be. I'm, I'm not going to be able to do this. You know, you just take that away. And then I tell them that everything you know about gluten full doughs pretty much leave at the door because now we're doing a whole different thing. And when you're, when you're open to that rather than. Well, that's not how I do it with the. No. Well, it's not because it's different. So what I find with gluten free, a few basic things. It takes a lot more liquid or not a lot, but it takes a little more liquid because the gluten free flours and starches really suck up the liquid. And then making sure that that dough is used fairly quickly after you have made it. Because as it is soaking up that stuff, the liquid, and it's in the fridge for the fats to chill back up, it can get hard really fast. So you're watching it. You're not going to put a gluten free dough into the fridge for hours or overnight if you can help it, have it chill back up maybe half an hour, 45 minutes and then get it out. And always just kind of like, does it feel like I could roll it out and then I'm rolling between what I've traditionally been doing, which is so interesting to say that I've been doing gluten free long enough that I can say traditionally I've been doing has been rolling it between two pieces of plastic wrap or two roll pots or sill pots. And that really has worked exceptionally well. But lately I have been playing around with some new techniques of making the dough and getting tremendous results of doughs that I can roll out and I can just, I can make a beautiful lattice. I can flip it on into the pie pan. It's not falling apart on me. So I'm very excited about the new things that I'm playing with and learning.

[Megan Scott]

Are those things going to be shared anywhere that we can find them?

[Kate McDermott]

Oh, yes. Oh yes, they will be. Yes. Give me a little bit more time on this. But I'm very, very excited about this.

[Megan Scott]

Exciting developments in pie. I love it.

[John Becker]

How do you feel about the, you know, the kind of one for one or cup for cup type gluten free blends?

[Kate McDermott]

I was just curious when I found out that I had celiac in 2006, which surprises everybody because I'm a pie maker and a pie teacher, I found out that I could no longer eat anything I was baking whether that was bread because I was always a bread maker too. And so at that time, the off the shelf AP gluten free flour mixes were not really a thing. So I was starting from scratch of playing with different flours and starches to see what worked to create things. And then when I think the first one that I tried of an off the shelf was a cup for cup. And at that time, the recipe in there had milk powder in it. And I also at that time was dairy free. So I could not have. I could not have that. And so, you know, yes, I used it. I think there's some. Let's just say I think it was a wonderful start into the development of gluten free AP flours. And there are so many others out there now that it's exciting to see that there are options and they're different.

[John Becker]

Cool.

[Kate McDermott]

I don't have any thoughts.

[Megan Scott]

I kind of want to talk about apple pie for a second because we're in. We're in that season. We're in apple pie season. And my mom actually texted me a question the other day. And funnily enough, she sent in the question that we're going to be answering in a few minutes. But this is a separate one about apple pie. So she made an apple pie. It looked beautiful, but the apples shrank and the crust did not fall. It stayed up. So there's like a crevasse between the apples and the crust. And I was like, honestly, the only way I know to prevent that is by pre cooking the filling so that you have it. It's more compact. But do you have any advice for. Because I know a lot of people want to make the raw apple pie where you just throw the apples in the filling. So do you have any advice?

[Kate McDermott]

I do. Don't make it this high.

[Megan Scott]

Okay.

[Kate McDermott]

So when you are doing the big mile high apple pie, the qualities of apples is they slump and you're left with a Grand Canyon in there or that big crevasse. And so cut your apples a little smaller rather than too big. And I'm the first person who will say, in art of the pie, I say cut apples to a size that you can comfortably get into your mouth. Well, all apples are not the same. I spent an evening one time placing 18. I had 18 different varieties of apples. I had one refrigerator that was just dedicated to apple storage. Crazy. And so I got out sheet pans and put some parchment paper down marked off nine squares on the parchment paper and put a unpeeled apple on each square and baked them. And I wanted to see, do they hold their shape? Do they not hold their shape? What's it like on the inside? What is the Fleshlight? Is it soft? Is it mushy? Is it still hard? It was a fascinating little exercise. Some looked like they were just collapsing on themselves. Others were sitting in a pool of sugar juice. It was all over the map. So what that told me is first of all, it's a wonderful thing to put a big variety of apples in a pie. If you can. I'd suggest going to the store or your farmer's market or the trees that you have and picking one or two of everything and cutting those up. I sometimes don't peel apples. There are a few that I do because of the nature of particular skins, like the new Cosmic Crisps, I think are fabulous. But I do find their skin a little distracting in a pie. So I peel that one. I'll peel a Granny Smith. But things like a Roxbury Russet, I'm not going to peel that or a Spitzenberg or you know, some of these different varieties. So getting back to is it going to slump or not? If I. What I found for the best results that I don't have to worry about it is don't over mound. You know, first we had don't overfill, well apples. Those are one that you really don't have to worry about. Is it going to leak out on your oven floor? But in this sense you don't want to over mount. You can have a nice little, a little hill. You don't have to have this, the Mount Everest pie on there. And you know, I think there was a PBS series on a few good pie places and they showed one of the places making pies that I, I think that was probably a 12 inch high pie. I don't know how you would eat it. You know, are you going to take a bite of that or is it just for the show of like.

[John Becker]

Okay, were they starting off, were they starting off with like a regular shallow pie pan or was it a especially deep.

[Kate McDermott]

No, it was a regular pie pan.

[Megan Scott]

Wow.

[Kate McDermott]

Yeah. So, okay, fine. And you know, just mounding, mounding, mounding. So I personally feel that just bring it down just a little bit and then don't have such the pieces be so big that they are going to not be done after an hour or an hour and 10 minutes or whatever. And to make sure that you can hear some steady bubbling coming through and also take a fork or a knife and. And tuck it into your vents to see are the apples soft?

[Megan Scott]

That's great advice and I love kind.

[Kate McDermott]

Of like going a lot further than just the slumping there.

[Megan Scott]

But no, this is great. This is great pie advice. And I love your tip on just using a variety. A wide variety of apples too, because I think people get caught up in, you know, what's the best apple for apple pie. But the best apple is a variety of apples. All. All of them.

[Shannon Larson]

I also think getting them too bite sized. I feel like a lot of people cut the apples like so the pieces are so large. I just don't like eating that. Like, it's just too much. So bite sized bits. I'm gonna remember that next time.

[Kate McDermott]

Yeah, you don't want it so small that it's gonna just turn into mush.

[Megan Scott]

Right.

[Kate McDermott]

But if there is just one apple that I could choose, and I've been asked this, if you only had apple, one apple to put in a pie, what would it be? It would be a Gravenstein. I think they have a wonderful balance of tart and sweet. They're horrible keepers.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Kate McDermott]

You want to make them, you know, the pie when they're in season or you can. You can freeze a filling. But boy, that Gravenstein pie is. I think it's the. I think that's the apple that poets must write about.

[Megan Scott]

I haven't seen a Gravenstein in a while. I mean, you might find it at a farmer's market. Market, not so much your grocery store.

[Kate McDermott]

And it's one of the early. The early apples. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

You mentioned a little bit about listening for the sound of the pie. Can you talk a little bit about what Sizzlewomp is?

[Kate McDermott]

Huh? That started when I had taken a pie out of the oven. I had made a pie in a very large pie pan. It was actually a pie pan made out of the pottery for shabu shabu, the Japanese stovetop cooking. So it was actually a shabu shabu. And I had made this very large pie in there that actually serves 15 people. Oh. Oh, my gosh. Oh, it's huge. When I took it out of the oven, I heard this. And I'm getting. You know, my previous career was professional music. So I'm going, what is this? And I get my ear down to it and I start listening to pies and I hear the whomping, which some people call the. The heartbeat of the pie. And then I'm hearing the sizzling in of the fat in the crust. So I kind of coined this sizzle whomp. And what I found is that every fruit has a different wump. So apples have that deeper whomp. Whomp. But cherries, a thinner juice. So they're all different. And I just find it fascinating to. To listen to them.

[John Becker]

Do you think it has something to do with the amount of pectin that's, you know, in these different fruits, or is it just. Who knows?

[Kate McDermott]

Now you're asking a very scientific question. I'm just a pie maker.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. We're talking about art. Art and music, and I apologize.

[Kate McDermott]

That's okay.

[Megan Scott]

I love that they all have a different kind of language, and I love also listening for. That's, I think, an underrated way of telling when something is ready or at a certain stage of cooking is really like listening. Listening to it. Listening to the way it bubbles or sizzles.

[Kate McDermott]

There's. Using your senses in cooking and baking is, I think, one of the greatest gifts that we get with sensory experiences in the kitchen. And I love that I can be on one side of the kitchen and I can hear something on the stove, and I know, oh, time to go over and turn it down, or whatever it is. Or for me, when I can smell the pie, the aroma of the pie wafting through my house, I know that I'm 80% baked.

[John Becker]

One more thing about the Sizzlewomp. Does the geoduck pie, that it's like a family favorite. Does that have a Sizzlewomp?

[Kate McDermott]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Kate McDermott]

It's a different one. That's different. And, you know, I was thinking about that when you were talking about mushrooms. Also, if I could circle back there for a moment, because that pie is just excellent. If you do sliced truffles right on the top of it, it's quite good.

[Megan Scott]

Like, after it comes out of the oven, you slice them.

[Kate McDermott]

No, you put those on when you're making a go duck pie, which people.

[Megan Scott]

Go, I think we need to back up, explain what even. We know what it is because we're in the Pacific Northwest. But what. What is gooey duck?

[Kate McDermott]

A gooey duck is the largest clam. It's the. The indigenous clam to the Pacific Northwest. It's a nisqually term, guiduck. Even though it's spelled G e O D u C k, it's pronounced like G W e e. Do you see? Guiduck. And the term means digs deep. So the guiduck. If I said to someone, I make a big clam pie, would you like that? They go, yeah, that sounds great. I said, it's kind of like having a thicker clam chowder in between the crust. Sound good? Yes. And then I bring out the guiduck and they go, what is that? Because here's this large clam stuck between two oval shells, long, elongated oval shells with the mantle that is in the shell and then the siphon. And the siphon is what gives it its uniqueness.

[Megan Scott]

Its elephant trunk appearance.

[Kate McDermott]

Yes, Its elephant tr.

[Megan Scott]

Yes.

[Kate McDermott]

So I've got some instructions in there on how to. In art of the pie, on the big clam pie, of how to prepare the gui duck. And then basically you're using the kind of ingredients that you would for clam chowder and putting those. It's not as juicy because you don't want to have soup in there, but you want that beautiful flavor. And once I get all of that in there before I top it with the upper crust, that's when I. I was given some black truffles once and shaved those on the top. It was a pie like no other. That sounds so good.

[Megan Scott]

We need. That's our next cooking project. I think we need to do that.

[John Becker]

We can, we can find Kuita.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

My family wants to do something different for Thanksgiving this year and I feel like that would be a really fun thing to do with them because they love to cook too, so.

[Dave Dresky]

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[Megan Scott]

All right, we've got to get to answering our caller question. This week we're going to talk about meringue. Sarah, can you read the question, please?

[Sarah]

What's the trick to sky high meringue that holds its shape and doesn't shrink or weep?

[Megan Scott]

Kate, I'm going to let you take this. And then we have thoughts, too, but I want to hear what you have to say about it.

[Kate McDermott]

Well, in general, there are three different meringues that we use. There's French meringue, Swiss meringue, and Italian meringue. A French meringue is the one that I learned from my grandmother. First, it is just the egg whites and some sugar, a little bit of cream of tartar, and beating it until you get the beautiful white, frothy meringue. The problem with this is that it doesn't hold its shape for very long. A French meringue is lovely, but it should be eaten within a few hours. In my humble opinion, it will not hold overnight. It'll start shrinking. So what do we do? We choose to take a look at some of the other options, which would be the Swiss meringue or the Italian meringue. Both of these use heat. So the Swiss meringue, you are having all of your ingredients heating to a particular temperature over a water bath. And then once it reaches the temperature, then putting that into a stand mixer or a hand mixer and beating. And now you get your big loft.

[Megan Scott]

Great.

[Kate McDermott]

And placing it on the top of the pie. It's a little. It's a sturdier meringue. It holds longer. Then the third one is the Italian meringue, which in this one you make basically, I think it's 2 parts sugar to one part of water, and you make a, basically a simple syrup on there and then heat that. Then you mix that into your egg whites and beet. And that one also, you will hold your shape with those last two. Just make as much as you can and pile it high. You can either, you know, put it under the broiler or use your blowtorch.

[Megan Scott]

My favorite kitchen torch.

[Kate McDermott]

There's also another one. Have you ever made meringue with aquafaba?

[Megan Scott]

I have, but not, not for a pie pan.

[Kate McDermott]

It doesn't hold. Okay. So it would be similar more to the French meringue. Okay. Serve it on the day that you make it.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Kate McDermott]

And I have made it with the aquafaba, which is bean juice from garbanzos. I've done it from red kidney beans. I've done it from black beans. I've done it not only from the canned beans. When I've cooked garbanzos in my insta pot, I save the water and I've made aquafaba from that. And it's beautiful. It takes a lot longer in the whipping. A lot longer.

[Megan Scott]

Do you stabilize it with anything or just whip it with sugar?

[Kate McDermott]

You whip it with sugar? Yeah.

[John Becker]

Okay, so you were saying it's similar to a French meringue. Have you tried it with the Italian meringue method or.

[Kate McDermott]

No, I haven't. That should be on my list to do. Maybe we can circle back around if you decide to do that, see what your results, you know.

[John Becker]

Yeah, we'd love to experiment with that.

[Megan Scott]

My go to for pie has become Italian meringue because it is so pillowy and glossy and like marshmallowy, and it just holds up so nicely. The only downside is you need a thermometer. You've got to cook that syrup to 238 or 240 before you drizzle it in. So it just requires a little coordinating with the hot syrup and the whipping of the egg whites.

[John Becker]

Well, yeah. And it also helps to be using a saucepan that has a little bit of a lip on it so that you can just pour it directly from there into the stand mixer. And then you have to be a little accurate with how you're pouring the syrup so it doesn't hit the tines of the stand mixer of the whisk or get it like on the side of the stand mixer bowl.

[Kate McDermott]

And of course, you have all of that on page 794.

[Megan Scott]

Amazing. Thank you for pulling that out. I didn't even have the page number written down.

[John Becker]

Yeah, the 2019 edition is the first or we pulled all of the meringue information into one spot. And it's actually, I think the first edition where we talk about all three types of those meringues, like by name. Yeah, that was quite an undertaking. Just like condensing, because I think we had meringue information in three different.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it was three different chapters scattered around. We also have in the book. I think it's. What. What is the name of the recipe?

[John Becker]

Soft Meringue toppings one and two.

[Megan Scott]

Yes, thank you. But it's a stabilized meringue. It's more like a French meringue, but it has a cornstarch slurry that is added to it. So you cook cornstarch with just a little bit of water until it thickens up into a gel, and then you add that to your meringue, and that also will stabilize it. So if you don't want to go to the fuss of making the Italian or the Swiss meringue, you can do the cornstarch trick, and that really helps hold it for a little while. But other than that, I would just say avoid overbeating the egg whites. I think people overbeat a lot and they get really grainy.

[Kate McDermott]

Grainy.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Not so nice.

[Kate McDermott]

And it just. It looks funny. You lose that beautiful luster. Yeah, Yeah. I was just watching the great British bake Off.

[Shannon Larson]

Yes.

[Kate McDermott]

Last night, and it was meringue week. Was so much fun to watch.

[Megan Scott]

So stressful.

[Kate McDermott]

Oh, my gosh. I love this show.

[Megan Scott]

Those meringue towers they were making. Incredible. Like, I. I don't know. I would have had a heart attack, but it would looked incredible.

[John Becker]

Yeah.

[Kate McDermott]

Yeah. I have a question for you. So, Megan, your frangipan fruit tarts, those just are. I've been into a bakewell tart mode, and I think these just look fabulous. Those are the ones on page 677 in there. I just love that what you have given people in here is the freedom to, like, okay, you got the dough, you got your pap, brisee or sucre, and you've got your frangipan. Now, what kind of fruit do you want? That's my type of recipe.

[Megan Scott]

Yes, me too.

[Kate McDermott]

You know, within high camp, the third book I try and kind of distill, here are the basic steps of doughs or a filling or a fruit or a topping. And now it's like the. Do you remember the flip books that had the mouth and the nose and the eyes and you could make different faces with. That's what I love about pies, is there's an infinite variety of what you can come up with. And your recipe for the. The fruit tart reminder, the frangipane fruit tart. It's on page 677, in case your listeners are wondering.

[Megan Scott]

I love that recipe.

[Kate McDermott]

It just reminded me of that.

[Megan Scott]

That was one I used to make. I used to have a little farmer's market baking business when we lived in Tennessee for a few years. And I made that tart every week, but it was. It was different every week because it was whatever fruit was in season. And it work. It works with basically anything you want to do with pears, with berries, with figs. One of my favorites is Raspberry. I just love a raspberry Franny pan. But, yeah, that's a fantastic recipe that I highly recommend. But we're going to assign, for this week's Joy Scouts recipe, we're assigning the lemon meringue pie on page 681 so you can practice your meringue, however you decide to make it. And it's a, it's a pretty, I mean, it's a pretty easy and forgiving pie, I think. And it's a favorite of. I think everybody just loves lemon meringue pie. It's so zesty and delicious.

[Kate McDermott]

That was my grandmother's. Her. Her pie. It was. She was known for that. And I just want to mention something on there. Be sure that when you are cooking the eggs in there that you really do get them to a boil in there because there's a enzyme, the alpha animalized enzyme in there that this is the geeky part of the pie geek, is if that's not killed off, it loves to eat cornstarch. And even if there's just one little enzyme in there, it says, oh, there's cornstarch, and it starts eating it up and then it multiplies and that is. And it eats up the rest of it. And that's when you get the beautiful custard, you know, the filling that you've made. And it just, yep, liquefies. So you've got to, you've got to cook that thing and stir and stir and stir. And so you hear some plop, plop, plopping. That's another term. You got the sizzle one, you got the plop, plop.

[Megan Scott]

Good, good sounds. When it comes to pie making, if you have a cooking question or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-885. Leave us a message or send us a text. We would love to hear from you, Sarah. Can you please read or play our next week's caller question?

[Sarah]

I listen to your podcast several times per week. It's comforting, even on Repeat. I have three Joy of Cooking books. 1975, 1997, and 2019. I have a problem finding recipes when I search a specific recipe. Do you have any guidance on how to use the index?

[Megan Scott]

Thanks, Patrick. Fun. So next week we're going to talk about how to use the index in Joy of Cooking, which may not sound exciting, but I think as cookbook people, we're excited to talk about it.

[John Becker]

Well, yeah, we have some index angst.

[Megan Scott]

Yes. All right, what is everybody cooking this week? Shannon, what about You.

[Shannon Larson]

We do our annual spooky movie night this week, and we're making. We tend to just make a bunch of different pizzas using the Joy of Cooking's pizza dough recipe. Thank you. So I'm really looking forward to that. And then, of course, our friends always bring over too much extra food. So I mean too much in quotes, like it's the most amazing thing. So. And then we'll carve our pumpkins. So. I'm always excited about that.

[Megan Scott]

That's fine. I'm sad I'm gonna miss that. I have a class that night, but I'm. I missed the carving of the pumpkin.

[Shannon Larson]

Well, John, you're just gonna have to.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. John 2.

[John Becker]

You're picking me up. I know we're a one car household, so it's either that or I don't come.

[Shannon Larson]

I'll pick you up. What about you two?

[Megan Scott]

I don't. I mean, other than using our mushrooms that we're gonna use some tonight. We're making a, like a lemon ricotta pasta, and we're gonna roast some of the white chanterelles and have that with the pasta.

[John Becker]

Roast them a little and then saute them because they're. They're a little wet, but yeah. Yeah. Aside from that, definitely thickened soups. I've had borscht on the mind for like a month now, and it's. I feel like it's raining.

[Megan Scott]

Do it. Okay.

[John Becker]

All right. Yeah, we have some smoked brisket that we still have. You know, it's in the freezer. I'm thinking smoked brisket in the Porsche?

[Shannon Larson]

Heck yes.

[Megan Scott]

Sounds great. What about you, Kate? Are you looking forward to cooking anything this week?

[Kate McDermott]

Well, I'll be prepping for a class that I'm doing down on Vashon island, so I'm making a lot of chicken pot pies to take down. And I'm going to be making some BlackBerry pies of the last of. You know, there was a lot of picking that went on, so I've got that. And then I'll be kind of. I'll be doing at least one apple pie down there, too. So it's. It's pie week here.

[Megan Scott]

It's pie time. Who. Who would have thought? Imagine that. And I just wanted to put a plug in for. You know, we're entering kind of a tough time due to the government shutdown. There's a lot of people who are facing, you know, losing their SNAP benefits. Groceries are really expensive, so if you have the means, please donate money to your local food bank. Food banks can use the cash and buy more food than you can buy with that same dollar. And they also know what they need. So I think giving cash is a really powerful way to help your local food banks. And then if you live somewhere with free fridges, you can also like cook food and take it to the free fridge or just, you know, buy a bunch of ready to eat or easy to prepare foods and stock the free pantry and free fridge and just reach out to your neighbors and let's take care of each other. Let's feed each other. That's kind of what this is all about. Kate, before we wrap, where can listeners follow you?

[Kate McDermott]

Well, they can find me on Substack. I have a newsletter called Kate McDermott's Newsletter and I'm also on Bluesky at Kate McDermott.

[Megan Scott]

Perfect. And we'll add all of that to the show notes as well so people can find you. Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribers subscribing to the show and leaving us a review. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram at the Joy of Cooking. Stay tuned for next week where we'll talk about using a cookbook's index. And don't forget to make this week's recipe, lemon Meringue Pie on page 681. Call in with questions, hopes, history or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

[Shannon Larson]

And we could not do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation production House. Thank you to Dave Dresky, our production coordinator, Haley Bowers, our audio engineer and Sarah Marshall, our producer.

[Sarah]

If you love the stories we bring you each week, please consider supporting us on Patreon. As an independent media company, your support is absolutely essential. It allows us to continue creating high quality professional episodes that amplify the voices of women, small business owners, writers, artists and creatives and keep their stories free from commercial pressure. By becoming a Patreon member, you're not just supporting us, you're investing in the future of independent Media. Please visit patreon.com thejoyofcreationproductionhouse to join our community today. Thank you for listening and supporting our podcast Dreams.