The Joy of Cooking Podcast
Episode: "Kate McDermott: A Casual Culinary Chat About Meringue"
Hosts: John Becker, Megan Scott, Shannon Larson
Guest: Kate McDermott, Pie Expert & Author (Art of the Pie)
Date: November 12, 2025
Episode Overview
This week, the Joy of Cooking Podcast welcomes Kate McDermott—celebrated pie instructor, James Beard finalist, and author of Art of the Pie—for a lively, warm, and knowledge-packed conversation. The discussion roams from mushroom foraging to roast chicken rituals, deep dives into the nostalgic magic of pie, and, most importantly, all things meringue: how to make it, make it last, and make it spectacular. Throughout, listeners are treated to culinary wisdom, kitchen stories, practical pie tips, and some memorable moments of food and family.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Mushroom Foraging & Seasonal Cooking
- [00:27-05:12] The hosts recount their Pacific Northwest mushroom-foraging adventure, braving wet boots for chanterelles and lobster mushrooms. There are ideas for risotto, "lobster" rolls (with lobster mushrooms), and roasting or dry-sautéing to concentrate flavors.
- Kitchen Ritual: Using mushrooms for risotto and considering new mushroom recipes inspired by foraging successes.
- Megan on Prepping for Family: “But tonight we're going to cook some of the white chanterelles... John, you were going to roast.”
– Megan Scott [03:56]
2. Roast Chicken Rituals & Kitchen Snacks
- [05:21-08:24] Shannon, John, and Megan talk about the weekly roast chicken (Joy Scouts recipe of the week, p. 407): favorite parts (oysters, wingtips, tail), kitchen snacking habits, and leftovers strategy.
- John's Recreations: “I made a khao soi ramen for lunch today with some leftover chicken. Some. A Little red curry paste, a little curry powder topped with chopped pickled mustard greens...”
– John Becker [07:08]
3. Kate McDermott Joins the Table
Joy of Cooking Legacy
- [13:47-16:08] Kate describes her lifelong relationship with Joy of Cooking—her mother’s wartime edition, childhood fudge-making memories, and receiving her own copy at 19.
- Memorable Quote: “It's always been the go to reference of I want to make this or that. Where do I go? This is where I go...one of the books that I really learned to cook.”
– Kate McDermott [15:25]
Pie Camp Origins & Philosophy
- [17:38-21:49] The serendipitous beginnings of Kate’s renowned Pie Camp—how an informal kitchen lesson led to an acclaimed teaching career.
- Viral Pie Moment: “I put up an arbitrary number, like 19 [classes], and...every single one of the classes has filled in like five or six hours. It blew my mind.”
– Kate McDermott [20:01]
Why Do We Love | Fear Pie?
- [21:49-24:26] Pie’s connection to memory, family, and nostalgia; why it feels intimidating but shouldn’t.
- Kate’s Wisdom: “Pie is a carrier of our memories...If you think that pie is going to be hard, then it will be hard...if you think, I'm learning a skill, I'm learning this...it’s getting easier every time, then, yeah, that's how things work.”
– Kate McDermott [22:17]
The Three Keys to Pie Making
- [24:32-26:39]
- Chill everything, especially yourself.
- Keep your boundaries—don’t overfill!
- Vent—literally and emotionally.
- “They're kind of like my rules for both pie and life.”
– Kate McDermott [26:39]
Lifelong Learning as a Pie Practitioner
- [27:11-29:20]
“The more I know and the more I learn about pie, I realize how much more there is...I'm not an expert. I'm a practitioner of a craft and as a practitioner, I'm always practicing.”
– Kate McDermott [27:11]
4. Gluten-Free Pie Crusts: Lessons & Techniques
- [30:16-34:44]
- Gluten-free is not hard, just different.
- Key: More liquid absorbs in, dough should be used quickly, and rolling between two pieces of plastic wrap or silpats works well.
- Evolving Methods: Kate hints at newly developed gluten-free techniques, soon to be shared.
- On Cup-for-Cup Blends: Early options were limited, but now there are diverse, better gluten-free flour blends.
5. Apple Pie Deep-Dive: Shrinking & Slumping Solutions
- [34:44-41:07]
- Shrinkage problem: If apples collapse under the unyielding crust, pre-cook the apples or just avoid sky-high pies, and cut apples in bite-sized pieces.
- Variety matters: “A wonderful thing to put a big variety of apples in a pie. If you can...pick one or two of everything and cut those up.”
– Kate McDermott [36:51] - Best apple for pie: “If there is just one apple that I could choose...it would be a Gravenstein...I think that's the apple that poets must write about.”
– Kate McDermott [40:20]
6. Senses in Baking: Sizzlewomp & Other Signs
- [41:07-44:12]
- Sizzlewomp: The unique bubbling and “heartbeat” every fruit pie has when done—listen for it!
- “Every fruit has a different wump. So apples have that deeper whomp. Whomp. But cherries, a thinner juice. So they're all different...I just find it fascinating to listen to them.”
– Kate McDermott [41:13] - “If I can smell the pie wafting through my house, I know that I'm 80% baked.”
– Kate McDermott [43:26]
7. About Meringue (Main Segment)
- [48:16-53:41]
Caller Question [48:24]:
Q: What’s the trick to sky-high meringue that holds its shape and doesn’t shrink or weep?
Kate’s Overview of Meringue Styles
- French meringue: Egg whites + sugar, but “doesn’t hold its shape for very long...should be eaten within a few hours.”
- Swiss meringue: Made over water bath, “a sturdier meringue. It holds longer.”
- Italian meringue: Hot sugar syrup into egg whites—“It’s the sturdiest, holds shape, glossy and marshmallowy.”
- For aquafaba: Works (vegan), but behaves more like French.
- “Just make as much as you can and pile it high. You can either, you know, put it under the broiler or use your blowtorch.”
– Kate McDermott [50:38]
Megan & John’s Additional Tips
- Megan: “My go to for pie has become Italian meringue because it is so pillowy and glossy and like marshmallowy, and it just holds up so nicely. The only downside is you need a thermometer.” [51:48]
- Stabilized French: Add cornstarch/water gel for a more stable topping.
- Avoid overbeating: Makes meringue grainy and dull; keep it glossy.
- [53:41] Kate: “And it just. It looks funny. You lose that beautiful luster.”
Bonus: Bake Off Love
- “[The Great British Bake Off] It was meringue week! Was so much fun to watch.”
– Shannon/Kate [53:49]
8. Pie as Infinite Possibility & Joy Scout Recipe Assignment
- [54:07-55:29]
- Frangipane fruit tarts (“that's my type of recipe...there's an infinite variety of what you can come up with”)
- Joy Scouts Recipe Assignment: Lemon Meringue Pie, page 681
9. Pie Science: The Secret of Lemon Meringue Pie Stability
- [56:19-57:25]
- Boil those eggs: To destroy the alpha-amylase enzyme or the custard will liquefy:
- “Be sure that when you are cooking the eggs in there that you really do get them to a boil in there because there's a enzyme…if that's not killed off...it starts eating it up...and it liquefies.”
– Kate McDermott [56:19]
10. What Everybody’s Cooking This Week
- [58:20-59:37]
- Shannon: Annual spooky movie pizza night and pumpkin carving.
- Megan & John: Lemon ricotta pasta with foraged chanterelles; borscht with smoked brisket.
- Kate: Prepping for a Pot Pie class—chicken and blackberry pies.
11. Food Access & Community Action
- [60:02-61:00]
Megan encourages listeners to support local food banks financially or by stocking local free pantries—practical community solidarity in hard times.
Notable Quotes & Moments
“Pie is a carrier of our memories...it's not hard. Anything can be. You're going to succeed at whatever you believe.”
— Kate McDermott [22:17]
“Chill everything—especially yourself.”
— Kate McDermott [24:32]
“I’m not an expert. I’m a practitioner of a craft, and as a practitioner, I’m always practicing.”
— Kate McDermott [29:16]
“Every fruit has a different wump ... I'm just a pie maker.”
— Kate McDermott [41:13, 42:57]
“Just make as much [meringue] as you can and pile it high. You can either, you know, put it under the broiler or use your blowtorch.”
— Kate McDermott [50:38]
Useful Timestamps
- Mushroom Foraging Chat: 00:27–05:12
- Roast Chicken Rituals: 05:21–08:24
- Kate McDermott Introduction & Joy Memories: 13:47–16:08
- Pie Camp Story: 17:38–21:49
- Three Rules of Pie: 24:32–26:39
- Gluten-Free Pie Dough: 30:16–34:44
- Apple Pie Shrinking Problems: 34:44–41:07
- Sizzlewomp: 41:07–44:12
- Pie Chemistry (Lemon Meringue stability): 56:19–57:25
- Caller Meringue Segment: 48:24–53:41
- Joy Scouts Recipe Assignment: 55:29
- Cooking Plans: 58:20–59:37
- Food Bank Call to Action: 60:02–61:00
Further Resources
-
Kate McDermott:
- Substack: "Kate McDermott’s Newsletter"
- Bluesky: @katemcdermott
-
This Week’s Joy Scouts Recipe:
- Lemon Meringue Pie (pg. 681, Joy of Cooking 2019)
Episode Tone
The tone is joyful, nostalgic, and gently irreverent—blending practical advice with love for the process, for learning, and for sharing food. There's a welcoming, egalitarian sense of, “Yes, you can make this!” and of food as a force for togetherness.
This episode is a must for bakers of any level, pie enthusiasts, and anyone who needs a boost of kitchen confidence with a side of laughter and heart.