Kelly Kate Warren: A Casual Culinary Chat About Backpacking Food

Summary

The Joy of Cooking Podcast

Episode: Kelly Kate Warren: A Casual Culinary Chat About Backpacking Food

Date: January 8, 2026
Host: The Joy of Creation Production House
Guests: Kelly Kate Warren
Hosts/Co-hosts: John Becker, Megan Scott, Shannon Larson

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Episode Overview

This week, John, Megan, and Shannon welcome Kelly Kate Warren, an experienced wilderness cook and guide, for a lively conversation about the joys and challenges of cooking in the backcountry. The episode dives into practical tips for planning, prepping, and enjoying elevated meals while camping or backpacking, punctuated by Kelly's stories from her 13 years in wilderness kitchens. The team and Kelly also dig into the unique role "The Joy of Cooking" has played as a bible for cooks in remote or resource-limited situations, answer listener questions about non-dehydrated backpacking food, and share personal anecdotes and kitchen victories. The episode balances expert advice and accessible, fun banter, making backcountry cooking feel both approachable and inspiring.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Banter – Kitchen Tools & Recent Eats

Timestamps: 00:38 – 09:02

• The hosts debate the necessity (or pointlessness) of toasters vs. toaster ovens vs. broilers.
  • Memorable quote:
    • Jon: “Most toasters—like the ones with the slots—they’re great, but they only serve one purpose, and the bagel setting is a lie.” (01:37)
• Recent restaurant visits, especially eggs with boquerones at Lechelle, and making mussels and frites at home.
  • Megan: “Weeknight mussels are underrated… you can use different liquids… you can go in a million different directions with mussels.” (03:35)
• Sagra del Radicchio event: a Portland celebration of chicories and creative local chef dishes.
  • Megan: “It was just very, very fun and festive. And we ate some very tasty things… Endive with aguachile and a roasted cranberry puree… When you ate it, it just made so much sense.” (04:01 - 04:50)

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Introducing Kelly Kate Warren

Timestamps: 10:06 – 10:47

• Kelly’s background: 13 years in the wilderness as a cook, ranger, trail worker, and guide.
• Her philosophy: Eat well, even when roughing it.

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Kelly’s Current Cooking – Home vs. Camp

Timestamps: 10:49 – 12:09

• Loves salty and sour flavors; current staples include frozen green onion pancakes as veggie wraps, beans with yams and kale.
• Reflections on the utility of cooking beans for meal prep.
  • Kelly: “A pot of beans every week is just such an easy meal to have in the fridge… good food prep for me.” (11:31)

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Joy of Cooking as a Backcountry Lifeline

Timestamps: 12:09 – 13:45

• Kelly describes “The Joy of Cooking” as her “Bible cookbook” and resource for learning to cook while without internet for months at a time.
  • Kelly: “The Joy of Cooking was like my one Bible cookbook… just an incredibly useful tool for a general overview of cooking.” (12:14)
• Cooking creatively out of it when missing ingredients or equipment; favorite for “the funny little anecdotes at the beginning of chapters.” (12:38)

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Wilderness Cooking Logistics & Resiliency

Timestamps: 13:45 – 19:38

• What’s possible out there?
  • Hollandaise sauce, baklava, from-scratch ravioli, even baklava, achieved with ingenuity and a Dutch oven.
  • Kelly recalls a happy accident: “I was supposed to do seven teaspoons of lemon juice, and I did seven tablespoons. So I ended up with a GALLON of hollandaise sauce.” (14:37)
• The backcountry kitchen fits on three mules (~300 lbs); includes professional stoves, propane tanks, rolling tables.
• Cooking outdoors means forgiving yourself for “burnt beans” and accepting environmental challenges with humor and adaptability.
  • Kelly: “Being a backcountry cook—appetites are high, expectations are low… the constraints… have really taught me some level of forgiveness.” (16:28)
• Tips for weather: Build windbreaks, adjust kitchen location to avoid rain flooding, improvise constantly.
  • “So much of my job is just being light on your feet and doing a bunch of creative problem solving. That's why I like it—never boring, sometimes traumatic, but never boring.” (17:38)

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Animal Coworkers: Mules & Dogs

Timestamps: 18:56 – 19:38

• Joy in working with mules, horses, and bringing her dog Danny along.
  • “My equine coworkers are some of my favorites… it’s really magical to have these relationships with animals that have been a big part of the lives of our ancestors for ages.” (19:01)

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Trail & Cowboy Coffee Rituals

Timestamps: 19:38 – 22:22

• Traditions vs. upgrades: Cowboy coffee (“boiled Folgers live and die by it”), black, gritty, possibly with powdered creamer.
  • “I'm going to start filtering my coffee… Don't tell anybody. The cowboys, someone's rolling over in their grave right now.” (21:01)
  • Attempts at adding eggshells to reduce bitterness: “It was a disaster to clean up… not worth it.” (21:16)
• Fun experiments with “swapping the pot,” pouring off a “sacrifice to the forest gods”—lore varies but most approaches yield “pretty, really dark, delicious black coffee.” (22:22)

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Why Joy of Cooking Works for Extreme & Resource-Limited Cooking

Timestamps: 22:22 – 25:45

• Hosts and Kelly discuss how "Joy" has long served cooks on sailboats, in Alaska, or in other extreme or international settings.
• “It’s really good for people under extreme circumstances… or maybe you don’t have all the things… or need to know all kinds of random stuff.” (22:56)
• High altitude baking and flexible substitutions were particularly helpful for Kelly in remote areas.
• Her habit: Bringing Joy plus two other cookbooks per season to maximize menu inspiration.

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Cookbook Recommendations for the Wilderness

Timestamps: 26:07 – 28:14

• Useful cookbooks included Afro Vegan, Five Spices, 50 Dishes (for Indian food basics), America’s Test Kitchen volumes (for rural-ingredient adaptability).

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Evolving Traditions in Backcountry Food

Timestamps: 28:14 – 30:13

• Early 2010s: A shift as younger and more diverse cooks entered the backcountry; comfort from seeing others cook “global comfort food.”
• “You can cook whatever you want, you know, just if you can find the groceries for it.” (29:05)

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Planning for Long Trips: Menu Design & Flexibility

Timestamps: 30:59 – 34:58

• Recipes and menus evolve based on perishability, “what holds up” without refrigeration (cabbage, carrots, onions, romaine).
• Menu priorities: Use fresh items early, then shelf-stable later.
  • “A lot of it is about having to be light on your feet… my menu changes a lot based on how my produce is looking and how much energy I have.” (33:32)
  • Key Advice: “The most important skill for backcountry cooking is just being resilient and flexible.” (34:58)

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Favorite Ingredients for Camp and Backpacking

Timestamps: 35:50 – 39:31

• Backpacker must-haves:
  • True Lemon/Lime powders: “Excellent for elevating whatever little backpacking meal… that nice little burst of acidity.” (36:40)
  • Nido milk powder: “Really rich… works for cream sauce, stand-in for milk… the dehydrated milk Americans use is flavorless and clumpy.” (36:45)
  • Packets from fast food restaurants: (sriracha, hoisin, etc.)
  • Dried fruit & nuts: Adds needed contrast and nutrition, especially in salads.
  • Specialty spices: Togarashi, sumac, chili crisp bring meals to life.
  • Mini Nalgene bottles: For transporting sesame oil, fish sauce, etc.

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Listener Q&A: Real Food, Not Just Freeze-Dried Packs

Timestamps: 39:34 – 47:16

• The challenge: Lightweight, affordable, non-freeze-dried backpacking meals.
• Megan’s story: The dangers of assuming you can “just soak lentils,” and other rookie mistakes with the Jetboil.
• General tips:
  • Shop the normal grocery store: Combine instant rice/couscous, tuna or chicken packets, seasoned beans, and powdered coconut milk for easy, satisfying meals.
  • Fresh fruit/veg for Day 1: “I don’t care if it’s gonna weigh a little bit more in my pack, I need some fresh fruit.”
  • Eggs, sausage, sniff-test cheeses: Rely on foods invented specifically for travel, like sausage and cheese.
  • Dehydrated hummus, coleslaw mix, tortillas: Quick, easy, and full of flavor.
  • Asian groceries for backpacking staples: “They do so many interesting shelf-stable and dehydrated ingredients that are really fun to play around with.”
  • Snack, snack, snack: “Bring lots of your favorite crunchy snacks, salty, sweet, whatever.” (44:05)
• Kelly: “Just pack some fresh fruit and vegetables… Americans have a really strange attachment to refrigeration.” (44:17)

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The Value of Comfort and Nourishment Outdoors

Timestamps: 47:16 – 48:41

• “I wish people who were outdoor recreating would nourish their bodies a little bit more. Their bodies deserve it. Working hard, you gotta eat some good food.” (48:41)

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Dream Projects & Recipe of the Week

Timestamps: 48:45 – 53:03

• Kelly and Megan joke about a Joy of Cooking: Backpacking Edition or outdoor cookbook that scales recipes from picnicking to glamping.
• Recipe of the Week: Campfire Bananas (pg. 177, 2019 edition)—bananas stuffed with chocolate chips, peanut butter, etc., roasted over a fire or in the oven.
  • “Highly recommend. It’s a really fun recipe to do with kids. You can just do it in your oven.” (53:03)

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Bonus Q&A: Pie Stories & Soup Experiments

Timestamps: 53:37 – 56:42

• Fun listener message: Butternut squash with sausage and apples, a nostalgic recipe dubbed “squash boat.”
• The Joy team is testing French onion soup with water vs. homemade beef stock, aiming to make classics more accessible without time-intensive stock prep.
  • “How do we make these recipes a little friendlier if you’re not doing [stock]? Store bought beef stock is really not good, so we’re trying to figure out ways to make better recommendations.” (55:54)

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What’s Cooking This Week & Where to Find Kelly

Timestamps: 56:57 – 58:16

• Shannon: Home Alone movie night, cheese pizzas, and ice cream sundaes.
• John & Megan: French onion soup testing for the next Joy edition.
• Kelly: Digging into her bean bin, planning beans with homemade turkey stock.
• Kelly’s contact: Instagram @thebackcountrycook and thebackcountrycook.com (trips launching soon, including a backcountry cooking trip; her website features helpful packing lists.)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Joy of Cooking’s durability:
  • “The Joy of Cooking was like my one Bible cookbook… just an incredibly useful tool for a general overview of cooking.” (Kelly, 12:14)
• On creative forgiveness:
  • “Appetites are high and expectations are low, which is a phenomenal setting to operate under as a cook.” (Kelly, 16:28)
• On prioritizing nourishment outdoors:
  • “Just pack some fresh fruit and vegetables. Americans have in particular really strange attachment to refrigeration.” (Kelly, 44:17)
• On the zen of trail mishaps:
  • Megan: “I learned I made a mistake and I learned—but… crunchy lentils are going to be bad later.” (41:21)
• On favorite backcountry ingredients:
  • “Anytime I’m in the backcountry, I bring in nido milk powder… it works really, really well.” (Kelly, 36:45)
• On wish-list cookbook projects:
  • “When's the Joy of Cooking backpacking cookbook coming out?” (Kelly, 48:45)
  • Megan: “That would be a really fun product… with chapters based on how outdoorsy you were being.” (48:49)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:38 – Banter: Toasters, kitchens, recent restaurant eats
• 10:47 – Guest introduction: Kelly Kate Warren
• 12:09 – Kelly’s Joy of Cooking history
• 13:45 – Logistics of wilderness cooking
• 17:38 – Bad weather & adaptability tips
• 19:38 – Animal coworkers & outdoor camaraderie
• 19:49 – Camp coffee traditions & controversy
• 22:22 – “Joy” in extreme/resource-limited cooking
• 30:59 – Planning long backcountry menus
• 35:50 – Favorite ingredients & backpack cooking hacks
• 39:45 – Listener Q&A: Backpacking with real food
• 44:17 – Normalize bringing fruit & veg on trail
• 53:03 – Recipe of the week: Campfire bananas
• 56:57 – What’s everyone cooking this week & closing

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Summary Takeaways

• Cooking well outdoors is possible, rewarding, and mostly requires creativity, adaptability, and a dash of forgiveness.
• The Joy of Cooking endures in remote kitchens because it teaches core techniques and flexible substitutions—not just recipes.
• Eating real food on the trail is both doable and important for wellness; don’t be afraid to pack fresh items, flavor-boosters, and your favorite comforting snacks.
• Good food and hospitality are acts of self-care wherever you are—especially with a bit of chocolate, a crispy salad, or a mule-cooked shepherd’s pie.
• Backcountry or not, teamwork, laughter, and stories are always on the menu.

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For More:

• Follow Kelly Kate Warren:
  • Instagram: @thebackcountrycook
  • Website: www.thebackcountrycook.com
• Upcoming recipe: Campfire Bananas (pg. 177)
• Call for listener stories/questions: [phone]

The Joy of Cooking Podcast: uniting kitchen adventurers from the pantry to the peaks.

Transcript

[A]

Sa.

[B]

Welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of the Joy of Cooking, kitchen victories and misadventures, and what we're cooking and eating right now. We're glad you joined us at the table today. I'm Shannon Larson, home cook, Joy of Cooking user and fan and Boquerones enthusiast.

[C]

I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night. And I've decided that cosmic crisp apples are actually fine. Good even.

[B]

Good job.

[D]

That's big of you. I'm Jon Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook, and I have never purchased a toaster and probably never will.

[B]

You don't have a toaster?

[D]

No, no, we have a broiler.

[C]

Oh, okay. We just use our oven. The oven's broiler. There we go. This is your hot take for today.

[D]

It was. I don't know how to work it into an intro.

[C]

Warm. It's.

[D]

It's a broiled take.

[C]

Yeah. A toasted take.

[D]

No, I. I feel like most toasters, like the, the ones with the slots, they're great, but they only serve one purpose and the bagel setting is. Is a lie. And then toaster ovens, they kind of just. They're really good at drying out bread and not so great at toasting.

[C]

Yeah, they dry it out and it doesn't really get toasted unless. Unless you burn it, Right? Yeah. So we just use the broiler, which also burns things. But I don't know. We figured it out. We've gotten our formula down.

[D]

You just time the broiler for when you turn it on to when the toast is done, and then you're good to go easy. Yeah. You just flip it. Yeah.

[C]

You have a toaster.

[B]

Yeah. So we used to have a toaster oven because we didn't have a microwave. And so we use that to heat.

[C]

Up food a lot.

[B]

But then the.

[D]

It's great for that.

[B]

Yeah. But then we moved into the house and the previous owners left us this nice microwave and our toaster oven was kaput. So we got a toaster and I actually really like it. But we only use it for bread.

[C]

Yeah, that's the only. The only downside.

[B]

Yeah, it's like one of those single use kitchen gadgets, I guess, you know?

[C]

Yeah. That kitchen real estate is precious. Precious. You don't have a lot of Counter space. Uh, what have you been up to this week, Shannon?

[B]

Um, well, we finally went to Lechelle last night, which is a restaurant here in Portland that was the brainchild of the late Naomi Pomeroy. And it was fantastic. It was just a lovely little date night. And they have these eggs, these, like, soft boiled eggs on the menu that have, like. They're like, smothered in, like, an aioli and then topped with bocarones and salmon roe and. Oh, my gosh, they were so good.

[C]

We're going next week, so.

[B]

I loved them. I thought they were beautiful.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And their simple green salad was really fantastic, too. So that was a nice night out. And then cooking wise, we made mussels and frites at home a couple of nights ago, and that was so fun. And I always forget, except for frying the fries, it's a pretty easy meal to make. We just paired it with a simple salad on the side. And it feels fancy, but it doesn't take you, like, hours in the kitchen to actually complete.

[C]

Yeah, I think weeknight muscles are underrated.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

They are so fast. And you can do so many things. Like, you can use different liquids. Like, you could use beer, you can use wine, you can use cider, you can use cream, like coconut milk. Like, you can go in a million different directions with muscles.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

And you could just pair it with a baguette.

[D]

It sounds like a fitness program of something.

[B]

It worked out really well, and it was like. It felt fancier than it actually was. That was nice.

[C]

Lovely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What about you two?

[C]

I mean, we cooked some stuff, but I kind of wanted to just talk about. We went to the Sagra del Radicchio on Sunday, which in a previous episode, we chatted with Lane Selman, who is with the Culinary Breeding Network, and this is one of the events that she helps to organize. But it was basically just a celebration of all the really awesome chicories that are grown in this region this time of year. And it's a bunch of chefs come in and partner with a farmer and they cook something really fun with the chicories. And there was also, like, a bunch of cider tastings. And people were really dressed up in, like, radicchio colors, so, like, purples and maroons and greens. And it was just very, very fun and festive. And we ate some very tasty things. Like, I wrote a few of my favorites down. There was a. It was like an end. It was the first thing we tasted, the endive with agua chile and, like, a roasted cranberry puree. I Know, it's. It sounds like, weird, but when you ate it, it just made so much sense. And the aguachile was really fruity tasting, like a. Like habanero fruity but not habanero spicy. That was one of my favorite things. What about you?

[D]

Yeah, that was great. What was. That was from the chef at Lilia Commodore.

[C]

I think so. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

No, it's fantastic. There were so many good things to choose from.

[C]

There was that treviso, like, so these leaves of this really beautiful curly looking purple chicory that were dipp dipped in fermented queso and then in fried sourdough starter crumbs. So like, I guess they. I don't know if they dried it and then fried it or like, what?

[D]

There was like fermented chilies in the queso. It wasn't like, oh, you don't think.

[C]

The queso was fermented?

[D]

I'm not sure.

[C]

I was just like, anything is possible. I don't know. It was really good, though. I was very excited about that one. They had a queso fountain also, which got my attention. That's hilarious.

[D]

Yeah. Aside from that, I. What? There was a. There was a dish that included some. Some fried curry leaves.

[C]

I cannot remember what else. There was so much going on and so many people that I was just scarfing food and scarfing my apple cider and did not took photos of a few things, but it was a lot.

[D]

Yeah, it was an overload for sure.

[C]

Yeah. But that was super fun and just really cool to see so many people show up for. For just this, like, kind of nerdy celebration of vegetables. Yeah. Kind of everybody really excited to eat bitter vegetables. I love it. I just love it. I feel like I found my people.

[B]

Is this where you changed your Cosmic Crisp mind or did they have apples there too?

[C]

They did have some apples, but that was unrelated. We. We were at the farmer's market, and one of our favorite orchards was selling Cosmic Crisps as well as like, three other varieties that had crisp in the name. So we tried out a couple of them. The Cosmic Crisp and then Fuji Crisp Fiji.

[D]

It's like a honey crisp. Fuji.

[A]

But it.

[C]

Cosmic Crisp was good.

[A]

It was good.

[C]

I take it back. I'm sorry. I've been. I have been shamed in person twice by two different friends who are like, Cosmic Crisp apples are really good. Okay.

[B]

They are.

[C]

You guys kind of. I give up.

[D]

Now we're on to toaster hate.

[C]

So, yeah, we moved on. We also made our recipe of the week. We just made it this afternoon. So I'm pretty amped because it was very rich and I added coffee to mine.

[D]

So it's called Kai.

[C]

Oh, yeah. The recipe name is Kai, which is K A I and it's on page 10 of the 2019 edition. It's like a kind of weird. I don't even know how I think your dad added it, right, John?

[D]

That's correct. Yeah. I think it's just, you know, a beverage that was British Navy thing where you know, you put these items that they would having the hold, so to speak, and you know, condensed milk chocolate. And you know, you make a drinking chocolate with the condensed milk. Maybe you add some birds. Custard powder or instant custard powder or malted milk powder. Malted milk powder.

[C]

And then you can fortify it with coffee or with rum or just leave it as like a hot chocolate. But it's very good and it's really easy. I think it took me like five minutes to make and the recipe makes four servings. So you can serve a crowd.

[B]

Drink all four.

[C]

I know. Goodness. Oh my God. No, it's got. It's got like four. Four ounces of chocolate. Yeah. Jeez. A lot. But highly recommend. It's excellent. Very good winter warmer. And there's a poem that goes along with the recipe that is in the recipe headnote, which you have to look at it to see what the poem is. It's on page 10 if anyone.

[D]

You don't remember it. Is that what you're trying to say?

[C]

Well, I was going to have you read it, but then I was like, he's gonna have to look it up and it's going to be. You should just read it yourself. It's on page 10. I think we found that poem on some Internet forum dedicated to people who are really interested in the British Navy. Like a. A really old school Internet forum just of nerd history. Nerds. I love that.

[D]

Yeah. Forever lost. I mean, who knows, like how that would rank in Google these days.

[C]

It wouldn't. It's actually fun and interesting if you make. Kai, tag us on instagram @the joyofcooking and let us know what you think. It's super easy, super delicious. Hey, Joy of Cooking listeners. Did you know the same family that taught America how to cook also taught California how to make world class Chardonnay. The same joy and passion for life that inspired Irma Rombauer to write the Joy of Cooking inspired her great nephew Kerner Rombauer to establish Rombauer vineyards, founded in 1980 in the Napa Valley. Rombauer has been producing acclaimed wines from California ever since. While they're famous for their iconic California Chardonnay, Rombauer crafts a diverse collection of delicious wines that bring joy to your table. Ready to taste the legacy? Visit rombauer.com joy or use code joypod, all caps for 15% off your order. That's R-O-M-B-A-U-E-R.com joy or code joypod, all.

[E]

Caps must be 21 to enjoy.

[C]

This week, we would like to welcome our guest, Kelly Kate Warren, to the table. Kelly Kate Warren has worked in the wilderness for 13 years as a trail worker, backcountry cook, wilderness ranger, youth educator, guide, and field biologist, during which time she has worked over 60 trips, ridden close to 2,000 miles, and served over 400 guests. She believes that the most important part of cooking is eating well, and she constantly seeks out new dishes, cooking techniques, and ingredients, whether it's the chemistry of cooking or the reproductive habits of salmon. She loves science, and she has built her life around sharing that love with other people. Welcome to the show, Kelly.

[A]

Hello. Thanks for having me.

[C]

It's so nice to have you here. What have you been cooking this week that you're excited or maybe just eating? Maybe not even cooking? What are you doing?

[A]

Oh, man. So, you know, typically I'm cooking for a crowd, and I actually love cooking for myself. It's so easy. And I tend to like food that's really, like, salty and sour. But I've been hooked on. I get the, like, frozen green onion pancakes for from the Asian grocery store, and then I make veggie wraps. So this morning I had that with some, like, leftover grilled Indian chicken, which was like, kind of a different seasoning, but it was delicious. And some avocado and pickled vegetables. So I tend to like one trick podia recipe until I'm over it. So I've been doing a lot of the great onion pancakes. Yeah, I made a pot of beans every week. So I have some, like, black beans this week with yams and kale. So working my way through that.

[C]

Yeah, we usually do a pot of beans every week as well.

[D]

Ish. We should be doing.

[C]

Yeah, we should be doing that.

[D]

We have a lot of beans to work.

[C]

We have a lot of beans that we need to eat.

[A]

I am one of the many in the Bean Club. And it's funny, one of the big complaints I got, I was on the list for the Bean Club for, like, seven years, and I audibly gasped when I got the Email. I like. I thought there was not a chance in hell. I get on the Bean Club. In the Bean Club, I hear people complain all the time that it's just too many beans to cook, but I'm cooking for lots of people. I order beans in addition to the Bean Club. I'm, like, cooking a lot, a lot of beans, but they're just such an easy meal to have in the fridge. That's like a good food prep for me. Yeah.

[C]

So we ask all of our guests, but what is your relationship with the Joy of Cooking?

[A]

I grew up with Joy of Cooking. I feel like there's one big, important cookbook that lives in most people's homes. It was funny. I was walking right before this and telling a friend about the podcast, and they're like, oh, my God. That was our family's cookbook. So I think a copy I had in my house growing up was from my grandma and had the whole chapter of Hot Dog Jello. It was very dated, but I found that so intriguing. As a young person, I was always interested in cooking. And then when I started backcountry cooking, I was cooking for trail crews, and I would be in the backcountry without Internet for five months at a time. And I was largely teaching myself how to cook, so I had a lot of weight constraints as to what I could bring. And the Joy of Cooking was like my one Bible cookbook. So I found it. This is my coffee I learned to cook with. It's all duct taped together. But, yeah, I mean, just any recipe I would get hit with where it was like, I don't know how to make hollandaise sauce or how do I make bread? And I'm missing certain ingredients. It was just an incredibly useful tool for just a general overview of cooking. And then additionally, it's so funny. It's like a fun, interesting book to read. I read it from COVID to cover at one point because I was curious, and all the little anecdotes at the beginning of chapters were so funny. So, yeah, it's been a huge part of my life since childhood, and then throughout my career of becoming a professional cook. It really, like, guided me through that. So, yeah. Thank you, guys.

[D]

Good work on behalf of our family. It's our pleasure. Yeah. That is quite the flex, making hollandaise in the backcountry. The hollandaise, is that something that you were making, like, when you were on one of these trips?

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, so it's funny. I mean, I'm cooking in the backcountry But I have a kitchen. You know, I have propane stoves. I don't have running water, but I have a pompan station. I have, like, really heavy duty coolers I use for refrigeration. But people are always really shocked at the kind of foods I produce out there. And there are some constraints in particular with, like, baking. I don't have, like, an oven with dry heat. If I bake, I bake in Dutch ovens. But there have been very few things I have not been able to figure out. I've made baklava out there. I've made ravioli from scratch, obviously, hollandaise sauce. And my job now, because I tend to operate with, like, a lighter kitchen, I might be setting up and breaking down my kitchen every day. I've simplified a lot of my recipes, but the hollandaise was funny. It was one of the few times I ever completely screwed up a recipe by mismeasuring things. And I was supposed to do seven teaspoons of lemon juice, and I did seven tablespoons. So I ended up with a gallon of holiday sauce. And it was, like, everybody's favorite week. We had holiday sauce on, like, burgers. Like, it was an extraordinary backcountry experience. But, yeah, I mean, many things like that. It's, you know, I have whisks, and I can set up a little double boiler, and, you know, I can do most of the cooking things out there, which is great.

[D]

Yeah. I was wondering about weight constraints. You know, how much does, like, your whole setup weigh without, you know, not counting the food and whatnot?

[A]

Oh, it's an interesting question. So all of my kitchen gets packed into the backcountry on mules. And so mules, incredible animals are my, like, favorite coworkers. People have been packing meals for thousands of years. I think that we have history going back with meals for about 4,000 years. But the style of cooking we do here in the Sierra, we use sawbuck saddles. It's interesting. Like, the traditions of packing are somewhat regional and mostly, like, in oral tradition, you learn through other people. But my kitchen fits on three mules, give or take a little tiny bit. And I have two propane stoves that weigh about 10 pounds, usually two propane tanks, a cook box that has all my, like, spices and utensils and whatnot in it. I have two rolling tables, Man. I'm guessing the entire weight of it is probably about. Oh, God, £300.

[C]

Ish.

[A]

That seems really heavy. I hadn't said it out loud. Don't tell my packers but yeah, I mean, it's, it's a pretty, like, well fleshed out kitchen. And our camps are really cozy too. We have chairs for everybody, have a big rainfly. So, yeah, yeah, we're living good in the backcountry.

[C]

Yeah. I've been jealously following your Instagram and the food, I mean, the views, the, the, the just natural beauty is incredible. But also, whenever you post the food, I'm like, oh, my God, this is just stuff I would be happy to eat on any day, much less. I mean, I feel like everything tastes good outside. Everything tastes better outside. But your food, really beautiful and looks just like a meal I'd be happy to have any old time.

[A]

Oh, thank you. Yeah. I always say I love being a backcountry cook because appetites are high and expectations are low, which is like a phenomenal setting to operate under as a cook. So people are just like completely shocked if you produce something that's not like chili Mac. But yeah, I've been doing this for a long time. It's funny, I'm mostly self taught and, you know, I still kind of consider myself a home cook. It's like, you know, I burn the beans sometimes. Like, it's also the constraints I'm cooking under where I'm like, I'm trying to make dinner for 15 people and it's like literally a hurricane. It's like dumping rain. I have a river going through my kitchen and it has really taught me some level of forgiveness because I'm very much a perfectionist. And I remember when I started cooking, I would just be so hard on myself when dishes didn't go well. And mind you, I also had less experience. So it's probably having things not go well more often. But it's sort of been nice giving over a little bit of my control to being in this environment I don't have a lot of control over. And at the end of the day, if food is hot and reasonable on time and there's enough of it, people are really grateful to be eating a good meal out there.

[B]

I was wondering how you deal with that bad weather cooking wise. Do you have any tips when that happens?

[A]

Oh, it's brutal.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's funny. I think the wind is the hardest because I have my propane stoves. I use Cook Partner, four burner stoves. Cook Partner is like, people ask me all the time about equipment and there's many different opinions about what to get. But Cook Partner has been making these like hand welded, beautiful stoves in Idaho for, I think 50 or 60 years, and they are just wonderful. They're pretty bomb proof. I've seen them get bucked off a mule and, like, work that night for dinner, which is incredible. But there's only so much wind you could have go in while your stove will stay out lit. So worst case, wind solution. I always am creating kind of a windbreak for myself, usually with my bear boxes or whatever else I have around. If I have a big rock I can sit up next to, and I will put my stoves on the ground and just. I'm, like, creating some sort of shelter for that. Because I have had trips at certain really windy, exposed lakes where it took me, like, an hour to boil water for coffee. So, yeah, a lot of it is just, like, kind of adjusting your kitchen to meet the demands of whatever environment you're in. I mean, additionally, maybe I set up my kitchen and it's not raining, and then the next day it rains hard, and I might move my entire kitchen, because it turns out wherever I'm at is in a low spot, and I have water running through it. So so much of my job is just being, like, light on your feet and doing a bunch of creative problem solving. And I think that's why I like it. It's, like, never boring and sometimes traumatic, but never boring.

[B]

You get to work with mules, which is the coolest.

[A]

Oh, they're the best. I know.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I love all my human co workers, but my equine coworkers are some of my favorites. Yeah. And then I work with a bunch of dogs, too. My dog Danny comes out on trips, so it's kind of unusual. I feel like people now, we're oftentimes very detached from relationships with other animals, and that was, like, such a huge part of how people became people. I love having folks on trips who've maybe, like, never really ridden a horse or encountered a mule. And it is just really magical to have this relationship with animals that, mind you, have been a big part of our. The lives of our ancestors for, like, ages and ages. But it is one of my favorite parts of my jobs is just giving pets to keep meals.

[D]

You mentioned boiling water for coffee, and I actually had that down as a question. Are you camp coffee traditionalist, where you just let the ground settle, or do you. Do you carry around, like, a French press or.

[A]

Oh, man. So this is, like, a big thing for me right now. I think I'm gonna update. It's, like, sacrilege. I feel like, at least in my world, to not do, like, cowboy coffee is Boiled Folgers live and die by it. Like recently it's considered okay, possibly to add some like powdered creamer and like a little bit of sugar. But like traditionally it's black cowboy coffee. And ideally boiled to shit. Like you, you know, putting it on at five in the morning when the packers wake up to wrangle animals and then it's sitting there and getting stronger. And like, people love it. But I am a big fan of good food in general and that includes good coffee. And on my own trips, I tend to bring some like, nice grounds. We have a really lovely little coffee shop in Bishop called Black Sheep. I think I decided this year I'm going to start filtering my coffee. Don't tell anybody. The cowboys, someone's rolling over in their grave right now. There is something about the grit I like. It's like a unique flavor. Flavor and like experience I have associated with being in the backcountry. And there's something about your really strong, black, gritty coffee that's like delicious. But I am serving, serving like kind of higher end food to people and I feel like, you know, I also bring my oat milk, which you should see. Some of the older cowboys I work with are just like horrified that I'm making my own. Yeah, but like the heart wants what the heart wants.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I think this year I'm going to start filtering. I'm like ashamed to admit that on record.

[C]

Do you add. I don't know if this even actually works, but do you add eggshells to kind of tame some of that bitterness?

[A]

I have tried that. I didn't notice much of a difference and it was like a disaster to clean up. It was 100%, in my opinion, not worth the trouble of collecting my eggshells and then adding them to the pot. I've tried. There's all kinds of little techniques people have. I lived by. You boil your water, you cut the heat, you add your grounds, you give it a stir. Some people say you cannot stir the grounds. Once you add them, you add some cold water to settle the grounds and then bring it back up to a simmer. It is like impossible to not overflow it every time. I'm like meticulously watching my pot and I just like swamp my stove 90% of the time. And then you pour off a little sacrifice to the forest gods to get rid of that like first little cap of grounds and go from there. But I've been told that you have to hit the side of it three times with a wooden spoon. Some people Swing the pot back and forth to settle the grounds, which is really scary. But people have very strong opinions about the proper way to make cowboy coffee. And I will say that in my vast experience, they all taste like pretty, really dark, delicious black coffee.

[C]

I was super excited to have you on the podcast because when I. I can't remember how, I can remember if it was a friend of mine that was like, hey, check this out. And you had posted a picture of your Joy of Cooking that was duct taped and stickered and looked very beaten up and awesome, or if I came across your page organically. But anyway, I was very excited because when we were, as we've over the years, talked to a lot of home cooks, especially folks who have been using the book for a long time. And when we were on book tour, we heard a lot of stories of people saying like, oh, yeah, I used to be a chef on a sailboat and Joy of Cooking was my one cookbook. Or I lived overseas doing X, Y or Z extreme thing and Joy of Cooking was my book. And I just feel like there is something about Joy of Cooking that is really good for people working under extreme circumstances. Or just maybe you don't have all the things that you would like to have or all the equipment or all the ingredients, or you just need to know all kinds of random stuff. Like everything from how to purify water to how to build. I mean, we even have like campfire building instructions and a squirrel. A squirrel.

[A]

Were there squirrels getting instructions in here?

[C]

Well, there was. There. Used.

[A]

Oh, man, that was not in my copy. I'm missing out. It was relevant to my interest.

[D]

There was a pretty infamous illustration. The directions are still there, but I mean, it's.

[C]

Well, now it's more rabbit skinning, but it is the same way you would skin a squirrel. Yeah, so. But not as many people wanting to skin squirrels. I don't.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I mean, it was funny. I remember I was using just like my old family copy from, I want to say the 70s. And then when I started cooking maybe a year in, I was like, there's a lot of recipes in here that were like, great for a dinner party in like 1970, but maybe are not the best for a trail crew of 18 year olds in 2014. So I bought, I think I just realized this is, I think the 2006 edition. And I remember like getting it and I was like, oh, my God, there's like a recipe for egg rolls in here. You know, novel. That there was some like, global food in here because I very Much cook kind of global comfort food. So it was fun to finally have a resource for just a wide variety of recipes. But, yeah, I mean, I have bought copies of Joy for other backcountry cooks I've worked for who are just starting out and kind of just need a general instruction for how to cook. And I think that it does just have. I mean, it's a big, hefty book. I found that sometimes if there wasn't a recipe I was looking for in particular, I could find something similar that had, like, a technique I needed. There's a whole section about high altitude baking that I remember being very useful to me. But it was really, I mean, I think for people who needed to be resourceful. This book has been around forever and, you know, people haven't always been able to go to the grocery store and buy, you know, a leek or a small container of cumin. So I think just the volume of information in it made it a lot easier for me to find things that were relevant to my needs. But, yeah, typically I had Joy. And then moving forward, I would start to choose two cookbooks every year that I would bring out with me as well and sort of cook through those books as well. But, yeah, I'm not surprised that this book exists on sailboats. And there's probably a copy in Antarctica somewhere. I would swear on it. Yeah, there's a bunch of different jobs out there. In general, you call it kind of being a remote chef, which is somebody who's cooking under whatever constraints. So I've worked at, like, backcountry lodges in Maine, but predominantly I've done wilderness cooking. I'd like to cook on a sailboat someday. That's on my. My to do list.

[C]

Yeah, I know someone who does that. And you can do it seasonally and get hired by someone with enough money to pay you to just cook for their family on a boat for like A. Or 2.

[A]

Yeah, I've met folks who do it. It sounds like kind of a dream job. I have my little dog. I can't go to sea.

[C]

That's true, that's true.

[A]

We have to go to the mountains. I made my choice. Maybe someday.

[D]

Just out of curiosity, what other books have you taken with you to cook through?

[A]

Oh, I remember really enjoying Afro Vegan. It's just such a beautiful book. I love that there's song recommendations, but it was also like a flavor profile I wasn't familiar with. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area, and I grew up in particular eating a lot of Chinese food. That's always been my comfort food, but it's been fun as I've gotten older, kind of experimenting with new cuisines. So especially when I was backcountry cooking, it would be like, okay, this season I'm going to invest in a cookbook, and then the spices I will need to cook within that style of cooking. So I remember I had a season where I was like, okay, I'm going to learn how to cook Indian food. So I got. Oh, God, it's like five spices, 50 dishes. Another. It's like an older cookbook, I want to say, from the 90s, but it was a great introduction to making really accessible Indian food where I didn't have a lot of resources. So I cooked out of that book for a long time. And then, yeah, Afro Vegan was just, like a flavor profile that was so unfamiliar to me. I had a bunch of vegan folks on the crew, so we had a lot of fun with that cookbook. Oh, I'm trying to think what else. I have my whole pile of cookbooks, honestly, all the America's Test kitchen stuff has been really great. I feel like, again, is sort of nice for when you're cooking with constraints and don't always have access to everything you might need. So many recipes. I've had beautiful cookbooks in the past where I was like, yeah, I live in, like, a town of 2,000 people. Like, I'm not tracking down whatever. You know, I'm. I'm not finding endives in Weaverville, California. So that is changing a lot. I've really been impressed cooking predominantly in rural areas. Like, just the variety of foods you have available now at, like, your average grocery store has really expanded. Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

We spent a few years in very rural East Tennessee. And I mean, granted, it was an hour away.

[D]

Yeah, that's where we first started testing recipes for the 2019 edition.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[C]

We would drive an hour and go to Knoxville, and there would be. They had a really great big, like, Pan Asian supermarket where you could find pretty much anything you needed.

[D]

And then little Sunrise Market.

[C]

Yeah, I think it was called Sunrise Market. And then there was, like, a little Middle Eastern shop. And so, like, even. Even very rural, you can still find. You can still find a lot of things, which is pretty cool.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's definitely changing. I mean, it was funny. The store I was working with, I remember being like. Like, I need, like, tofu every week, and they were, like, horrified. Why would you need tofu at all? And the program I worked for for a long time they actually told people you couldn't be vegan, that it was like too much of an imposition on all the cooks. And mind you, there was a big shift in sort of who was cooking and what kind of cooking was happening in the realm of trail cruise. When I got in, in like 2012, where, I mean, one of my first cooks, Ms. Anne, was this phenomenal 70 year old hoopa woman, bright red overalls, just made like incredible gravy. But like pork chops, like hockey pucks. I mean, very like classic old school. Every vegetable was like boiled to hell. But she cooked with love. And there were just a couple dishes she did a phenomenal job of. But, you know, like she did not know how to cook tofu that was not on the menu at all. And then as we've had some of these kind of old school backing cooks retire. And I came in at a time where there were five or six women, younger women cooking, who were cooking, you know, not just your kind of classic meat and potatoes meals. And I had a cook, Marla, who was phenomenal. I cooked with her in Mount San Jac, but she was just cooking a lot of Asian food and Latin American food and food that I grew up eating and loved. And I really didn't know I had to see somebody do it to realize that it was feasible to cook like that out there. I think so often when I talk to people about cooking in the backcountry, a lot of the limitations are just sort of like societal. Like we just have this sense that there's like certain cooking that happens in the backcountry and certain that doesn't. Like, people are joke when I backpack and I'm like, yeah, bring a carrot. Like, put some fresh vegetables in your ramen. And they're like, we don't do that. You know, like, like, like that's not allowed. It has to be freeze dried or dehydrated. I'm like, you know, you can do what you want. But even for me, going from my first season where I would say the food was much more kind of classic American food, to then cooking more of the food that I grew up loving and eating, which was a lot of Asian food in particular, you can cook whatever you want, you know, just if you can find the groceries for it.

[C]

You know. We're big fans of Rombauer Vineyards. They're sponsoring today's episode, actually. But honestly, their wines are fantastic with so many joy of cooking dishes. My current favorite is their Sauvignon Blanc with our Khao Soi Gai recipe. That bright, crisp wine cuts right through the richness of the curry. It's perfect.

[D]

Oh, absolutely. Being Oregonians, we take our pinots seriously. We're excited about their new Pinot Noir, which pairs beautifully with our chicken jambalaya. The wine has enough body to stand up to all those bold crayole flavors.

[C]

If you want to try these pairings yourself, head to rombauer.com joy or use code joypod all caps for 15 off. That's R O-M-B-A-U-E-R.com joy or code joypod.

[E]

All caps must be 21 to enjoy.

[C]

How do you plan for a packed trip, like a longer trip? What is your process like for figuring out what your menu is going to be, what you need? How, how do you like make that happen?

[A]

I mean, it's so funny at this point, a lot of it is just through years of messing up. But I got my start as a backcountry cook cooking for a trail crew. So I was a contractor with the Forest Service was the California Conservation Corps has a program called the Backcountry Trails Program that's been going on for since 1969. But I cooked for the same crew for an entire five month season. So that was sort of useful because I had people to sort of be like, okay, you know, like, what are you? What do you want to eat? I took a lot of requests because these were people who had, you know, really no say over what they were eating for the duration of their season. They had a cook who was cooking for them. So I wanted to give people just some sovereignty over eating things that they enjoy. So that really dictated like my menus at that time. And then also I had these people introducing me to wonderful meals and I was workshopping, you know, I remember making Porsche for somebody's birthday and I had never made that in my life. And I used the recipe and joy of cooking. And yeah, so I sort of through, I guess it was four or five seasons of cooking for the seas, I sort of figured out these recipes that really worked well for a crowd and worked well in the backcountry. And now I've been working at Rock Creek Pack Station for the last six years as a backcountry cooking guide for these meal supported pack trips. I used a lot of what I learned as a trail crew cook and created a menu for myself that I update every year of recipes I knew were stable without refrigeration. Lightweight is a big one and easy enough for me to cook if it's dumping rain and we got into camp late. I change my menu a little bit every year so I don't get bored. I have a couple things on there that are just like classics that people love to eat for whatever reason. Shepherd's pie, like, which I get is like classic. Stick to your ribs kind of. You've hiked all day.

[C]

Good food.

[A]

But I've never seen people put away so much food in my life. Every time I make shepherd's pie, I make like an extra 3 pounds of assorted ingredients and I'm just like shook, it's demolished. It's such a fan favorite. So that's like a forever on the menu is the shepherd's pie. There's a couple salads I have on there. But if I do a much longer trip, like I maximum number of days I've done on a trip is 12 days. We do trips of 15 days and we do the entire John Muir Trail, which is a 30 day trip. I have not done trips of that length and I don't really want to. I'm so invested in cooking interesting food and you have to compromise some of that if you're doing these really long trips.

[C]

Trips.

[A]

But if I'm doing an eight or 10 or 12 day trip, I know that my dishes later on in the trip are going to be more based on shelf stable ingredients. So it's going to be less, you know, fresh vegetables. I always have my kind of standards that I know I can continue to use are cabbage, onions, carrots. Last really well. I've actually had a lot of really good luck with romaine, which is kind of strange. And yeah. So I have a sense of certain recipes that are on my menu plan as later in this, later in the trip kind of meals and then. Yeah. So there's just sort of an order in which I'm using ingredients where I'm using more perishable things first. If I'm cooking meats, I tend to do. If I cook seafood, that is the first thing I use. Then chicken, then pork, then beef. Just in terms of things that are going to be like the least sketchy as they thaw. But a lot of it is about having to be light on your feet. So it might be that I have a meal planned where I'm going to use my pork chops, but it turns out they're still pretty frozen and I want to retain that coldness in my coolers. And my chicken is totally thawed out, so I'm going to use that instead. And like, oh no, my green Beans are looking pretty rough. I'm going to use those tonight. So a lot of it is just sort of having to be resilient and not be committed to a, you know, set in stone menu. My menu changes a lot based on, like, how my produce is looking and how much energy I have. You know, maybe I have a meal plan that I know I'm gonna have to be doing a lot of chopping, and it was a hard day, and I just want to make soup. So it varies a lot.

[C]

So not being wedded to the original plan you set out with, being flexible and nimble.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's honestly probably the most important skill for backcountry cooking is just being resilient and flexible and, like, willing to adjust.

[C]

Like, I have also.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

So in life, for sure. But it's funny, I have. I worked in restaurants in San Francisco for a long time. Although I was front of house. A lot of my friends are chefs, and I've wanted to have them come out and cook, but it's is coming from a restaurant background and especially like a fine dining background. I'm like, you just have to give up so much control in a backcountry kitchen. Like, you're just not gonna have the things like the mice got into the flour or like you spilled all the cumin or all the eggs broke. You know, there's all these things that happen, and I love that, again, that my job is never boring, that I always have some little creative problem to solve. But it can also be heartbreaking. I've been, like, really excited to cook certain things, and then for whatever reason, conditions aren't right and I have to move on to a new plant.

[B]

I wanted to know what are, like, the favorite ingredients that you always bring with you? Like a certain stuff you think is, like, necessary at camp to keep things interesting or whatever it is. Because I. I've done quite a bit of backpacking in my past as well, and I always like to bring a thing of hot sauce, like a little bottle of hot sauce with me, because I'm like, I need something to just make my, like, waken my palate, I guess is what I would say. But do you have anything that you like to bring on all of your trips?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

I want to give you a two parter. So when I backpack too, which I think maybe people who are listening, this would be more relevant to them. But I did some through hiking. I hiked 700 miles with a PCT in 2017 and then broke my leg. But that's another story. But I had certain things that existed in my cook kit that like, really elevated a lot of the backpacking food I was eating, which tends to be bland and also really texturally disappointing. So I really love they make.

[E]

Oh, God.

[A]

They're called, like, True. It's dehydrated lemon and lime powder.

[D]

True.

[A]

Yeah. And they're super cheap. They just come in a little tiny packet. But you can just add them powdered to a dish and have that nice little burst of acidity. You can also add them to water and have a Gatorade minus all the sugar. But that was just an excellent way of elevating whatever little backpacking meal I was throwing together. I feel like acid is this thing that so often gets discounted in food, especially your Brahmin or whatever. I live in Daibai. It exists in anytime I'm in the backcountry, I bring in nido milk powder. So I don't know if you've seen they're the giant jugs. They're really popular in Mexico and Latin American. But so much of the dehydrated milk that Americans have used over the years is non fat. And it's like flavorless and clumpy and weird. And nido is really rich. It's delicious. I can make a cream sauce out of it. Like I've made like an Alfredo. I've used it in making tikki masala in place of cream. It works really well as a stand in for milk. And because you can kind of change the viscosity of it by adding more or less water, it works really, really well. So that's an ingredient. I love to use hot sauce. And then I love. I will go to Panda Express to get their little sriracha and hoisin sauce packets for morning backpacking. There's certain. I feel like fast restaurants that have really good little, you know, ingredient packets for stuff. But in my backcountry kitchen, I have wonderful spices. I live in a high desert in Bishop, California. It's the Owens Valley, and so we don't have a ton of agriculture here. Our water is getting funneled to Los Angeles was a whole other thing. But there just isn't much water resources here to grow food. That is changing. I'm excited to work with a couple different farms this coming season. But an area that I was able to source better and more sustainable ingredients was in dry goods. So again, like my really high quality beans and pastas and then my spices. So I found like having some excellent togarashi or I've been using a lot of sumac recently, just like different little spices that can light up a dish and make it more interesting. And then also I love dried fruit and nuts, which is your kind of classic gorp, you know, backpacking snack. But I'm a huge salad person. To me, like the most luxurious thing you can eat on a pack trip is a lush salad. Like, anybody can pack a steak, but to have like pickled onions on a salad with like pistachios and roasted beets like that, to me is like the next level of why you hire mules and go on a pack trip, it's for the salads. So for me, a lot of my salads, it's like you want some like crunchy, rich, you know, proteiny elements. And for me, oftentimes that's seeds and nuts and whatnot. And then, yeah, I should look through, I have all these little Nalgene bottles because it's like I'm not going to bring the full thing of sesame oil, but I want some sesame oil. I have my little thing of fish sauce. I always have some interesting hot sauces. I usually have a couple different ones. I'm like trying out that season and then I've been doing a lot of chili crisp. I gotta, you know, get with the times and sign on to every viral food trend. Just some of them. The chili crisp one I'm down with.

[C]

That's a good one.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I support that.

[C]

That leads us really nicely into this week's caller question. So every week we answer a caller question and this week we are talking about backpacking food. So this is perfect. Sarah, can you read the question?

[F]

Hi, friends. I'm a planner and I'm going on a huge backpacking trip this summer. Freeze dried, pre made meals are expensive. Any suggestions or joy recipes that are lightweight, easy to pack and affordable?

[C]

We didn't come up with a lot of joy recipes, but we have general advice and I think it will be helpful to have you helping us answer this question, Kelly, because you're like a pro. But I think the big note I had was, well, first of all, also very relatable to not want to just eat freeze dried food because, like, there's some good stuff out there, but it is really expensive and it all kind of has like the same texture. I feel really very salty.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So that's extremely relatable. And I wanted to tell a story just to kind of kick this off because I had my own backpacking food kind of debacle that didn't Go very well. Shannon, I was actually on a trip with you. We were summiting south sister and I haven't done a ton of backpacking and I did not want to eat freeze dried food. So I was like, well, I'm going to bring, I'm going to put lentils in a bag and season it with all these seasonings. And I thought it was going to be so good. And then I think you or our other hiking companion was bringing the stove and it was just the kind where you boil water. So it was like a jet boil. Basically. I was like, oh, I can't cook anything. And so I just remember pouring boiling water onto my lentils and hoping that if I let them sit they would rehydrate. And they absolutely did not. So I ate some crunchy lentils and then I think you graciously gave me some of your food or like snacks or something.

[B]

I think we just kind of tried to fill in. Fill in for you.

[C]

Yeah, because I needed it, I needed food, but I like couldn't eat all those crunchy. I was like, this is going to be bad later. So that's my intro to this. However, we've learned something. I learned, I learned I made a mistake and I learned. But I, I was thinking about all of just the really either instant or semi instant things that you can just buy at the grocery, normal grocery store. So like those packets of rice that are either instant rice or they're already cooked and you just heat it up, up and you can do a lot with those and combining them with like a tuna packet, like a pouch or a pouch of chicken or they even have like single serve slices of Spam in a pouch. Like if you want to make a thing of instant ramen and add some Spam and some pro like a pouch protein instant couscous. I mean couscous is instant, so that's a really good thing to have. You only need to add water and then like you can buy like pouches of seasoned beans and just do like beans and couscous and maybe some chicken or something. Um, and then thinking about. Also one of our favorite finds has been powdered coconut milk. Yes. It's so good. And it's. I use it a lot in break for breakfast. So I'll use, I don't even use instant oats, I just use rolled oats. Because if you add hot water, they only need like maybe 10 minutes to sit and they're fine. But I'll add the coconut powdered coconut milk to that along with like chia seeds. Nuts and then some freeze dried strawberries. And that is delicious. I happily eat that. And then also thinking about things that just don't need refrigeration, like summer sausage. What about you, Shannon? What do you like to take? Backpacking?

[B]

I agree with you. I think I use instant couscous quite often and then just like mix in other things. One thing I do as like a treat for myself is I always bring something a little bit fresh for the first day. I think it's nice after that first day to have something like, like not totally freeze dried. So I'll bring hard boiled eggs, for example. I really like to have on hand any kind of fresh fruit. I don't care if it's gonna weigh a little bit more in my pack. I need some fresh fruit that first day. And again I'll bring like a little like tiny bottle of hot sauce with me to spice things up. I think that's really helpful. I am not so good at coming up with interesting ideas for breakfast. I'm just like an oatmeal girl in the morning. I wish that I had a little bit more creativity there. But I do agree with those like pouched proteins, like pouch chicken and tuna and that sort of thing that's gonna help like fill you up at the end of the day. And then snacks, snacks, snacks. Like bring lots of your favorite crunchy snacks, salty, sweet, whatever. I think that really helps. And my other tip is always bring something with you in the car for when you're done as like a little treat. I think that that helps.

[C]

What's your treat?

[B]

I most of the time it's fruit. Most of the time I put like oranges in the back or something. I love oranges. After a long trip, that's probably my go to.

[C]

What about you, Kelly?

[A]

So my biggest like life hack for backpacking food and I get a lot of hate for this is like just pack some fresh fruit and vegetables. Like people, like I. People were terrified on the PCT that I would hike with like some carrots and like some snap peas because people have this whole ultralight mentality where like everything has to be dehydrated and like counted down to the half ounce. And like, I do not feel nourished if I'm not eating real food. And also when you're backpacking or hiking, it's the hardest you are on your body. Like just existing at altitude is really physically challenging on your entire body or respiratory system. So our bodies need nourishment. So I think really like prioritizing eating foods that are nourishing for your body when you're doing hard tasks in the wilderness is important. And for me, it's like if I had a handful of chopped vegetables to whatever I'm eating for dinner or breakfast that morning, it like, makes my meal feel like a meal because again, it's a texture thing for me. A lot of the time with dehydrated meals, I just like. I actually don't buy many dehydrated meals because the texture is so off putting to me. But if I have some dehydrated beans and add a handful of chopped peppers or shallots or whatever it is, that that makes it feel like a real meal to me. I researched a lot of what foods are invented to go in a backpack. Like low key. We invented cheese and sausage so that we could put it in a backpack. Americans have in particular really strange attachment to refrigeration. So researching how other countries deal with food storage made me feel more secure about traveling with certain foods that if I'm carrying like cheeses or I oftentimes will carry some sausage for day one or two, I just pack it really well insulated in the center of my pack. And if things are still cold and smell fine, I feel good about cooking them. But yeah, oh, some of my favorite recipes, I love doing falafel because you can just add water, it takes a little while to hydrate. But I'll just put. Put some falafel mix in a ziploc bag, hydrate it. I cook out there. I mean, I know some people who are so exhausted after hiking and they have no desire to do much besides boil water. But for me, it's really grounding after a long hike to sit down and do this process that feels it's just like a little familiar ritual to make yourself food. But yeah, you can fry falafel mix in just a little thing of olive oil and then I'll do wraps with tortillas. They make delicious dehydrated hummus that if you add some sesame oil to in hot sauce, is really delicious. So the hummus with the falafel tortillas and then a bag of coleslaw mix is fantastic. I also will do mushu wraps with tortillas and just a bag of coleslaw mix. I've used like teriyaki flavored jerky in that and it was really delicious. And then use little hoisin sauce packets and I don't know. I love ramen. I'm not allowed to eat ramen at home because honestly, I Would probably eat it often if I could. And I know it's not the best for me. Certainly doesn't make me feel the most nourished. But I do all kinds of fun ramen recipes in the backcountry. I love the coconut milk recommendation. I buy a lot of backpacking food at the Asian grocery store. They do so many interesting shelf, stable and dehydrated ingredients that are really fun to play around with. And then also snacks, like killer snacks. So. Big fan of that.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. I think people just have this mindset of things that you are, like, supposed to or not supposed to eat in the backcountry. And if you just like, like, kind of eat things that you normally would eat, your body needs nourishment and you can't survive. Do not tell every through hiker this, but gummy worms and ramen alone is, like, not what you need when you're hiking for 25 miles. They will fight me.

[C]

I feel like all of those. A lot of the backpacking foods are also just really rough on your gut.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And there is nothing. I do not want to have stomach problems when I am on a backpack. That is like the last time you want that to happen. And so, yeah, having some veggies, having some fiber is really good. Just pack that apple. It's okay.

[A]

The apple or the cuties? Like, I've had religious experiences after a long hike where I have, like a cold orange and it's just like, changing. And that's. I think that's what's really fun about my job now too, because people are used to eating their, like, weird backpacking slop and then they come on a pack trip. And I always say that it's going to ruin backpacking for you because you, like, hike your whole day and then I'm gonna like, cook you a, like, medium rare steak, asparagus. Like, it's like, very surreal to eat these, like, delic this meals in this context in which you are usually eating, like, kind of slop. But I do think that I wish people who were outdoor recreating would maybe nourish their bodies a little bit more. Their bodies deserve it. Yeah. Working hard, you got to eat some good food.

[C]

We can normalize that. We're. We're helping to normalize that idea.

[A]

Yeah. Big fan. When's the Joy of Cooking Backpacking cooking book coming out? Right.

[C]

I mean, that would be a really fun product. I did have an idea for a book that was sort of like that, but it was like outdoor cooking. But with different chapters based on how outdoorsy you were being. So like, oh, I love that. Are we picnicking? Are we backpacking? Are we glamping? Like, what are we doing? I still think that would be very fun. I don't think any publisher is going to want to publish that. But I like it.

[B]

I love that.

[C]

Maybe I'll do a zine. Oh, there we go. You should do a zine. That would be awesome.

[A]

I love cooking and I really want.

[C]

To make a cookbook. Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, I've been like slow motion working on one for 10 years. But people just sort of assume, assume. If you're a cook, that's like, yeah, you know, like someday you own a restaurant, you write a cookbook. And I'm like, I don't really want to do either of those things. I don't know, maybe.

[C]

Very, very fair.

[E]

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[C]

John, you did a little bit of reading into some older editions about.

[D]

Oh, it just, I mean, you know, my father Ethan spent a lot of time outdoors and so he did have some tips to offer as far as like backpacking menus are concerned. Yeah. In the latest edition, I feel like we spent a Lot of time talking about fire safety more than anything else.

[A]

Thank you.

[D]

Do not burn down things like while you're trying to cook, which I think that that's, that's fair.

[C]

Yeah, that's great.

[D]

But.

[C]

And water, I feel like we still have the water purification information, but it's more of like a. I don't know, it's more of a preparedness thing than.

[D]

A. Yeah, that's in the know your ingredients entry on water.

[C]

About everything.

[D]

Yeah. But I feel like Ethan's advice there, there's some good stuff in there and a lot of it. I mean, I feel like he actually uses the term munchies in the 1975 edition, which is kind of funny. Okay. Yeah. And then it like munches, like plural.

[B]

Huh.

[C]

It's like, okay, okay. He was trying to start something, I think.

[D]

I mean, maybe he started munchies, maybe he did not.

[C]

It was hard to think of a recipe of the week for this week because, I mean, I think we could probably figure it out if we worked a lot harder at it, but we don't have a lot of.

[D]

What are you trying to say?

[C]

Camping specific? I mean, you can make, you can make anything when you're camping, basically, but backpacking is another deal. But we do have one recipe that's very nostalgic and very delicious and you don't have to be camping to enjoy it. And it's Campfire bananas on page 177. You can make these in your oven. It's just like cutting, taking a whole banana, cutting a slit down the middle and the peel is on. And then you stuff it with like chocolate chips and peanut butter. And if you like marshmallows, you can add marshmallows, kind of whatever delicious thing you want to shove in there.

[D]

You can, you can make it into a full blown spores type situation, or you can add some nuts if you want, or, you know, all those nourishing things, things that will not make you regret at being in a, on a backpacking trip.

[C]

So that's Campfire bananas on page 177. It's a really fun recipe to do with kids. You can just do it in your oven. Or if you have a campfire or a fire pit, that would be great. It does get a little bit of like a char and smokiness if you do it over a real fire. Highly recommend. So let us know if you make that recipe and tag us on Instagram at the Joy of Cooking. If you have a cooking question or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. Text. We would love to hear from you, Sarah. Can you please read or play the next caller question?

[F]

Yeah, it's actually a comment, and it's real fun. Good evening. Just listen to the recent pie episode with Aaron McDowell. That was great. And now I need a metal pie plate. All of mine are glass. A top 10 recipe from Joy of Cooking. I'm a little older, so I have. The 1997 edition is the butternut squash and sausage apples. OMG. It's perfect for turkey day and Christmas. We call it squash boat.

[C]

That's very cute. So next week we will. Well, we may. So that is very lovely, and thank you for sending in that story. And next week's guest is a game cooking expert. So we may solicit some questions on Instagram before then that are more specific to game and, like, wildfowl and fish cookery. But that is a really sweet story. Thank you for sharing. All right, what is everybody cooking this week?

[B]

Well, it's December, and that means it's Christmas movie time in my household, and we are doing home alone movie night with friends, and we are not cooking a thing. We are ordering in a bunch of cheese pizzas, and we're gonna get a bunch of stuff for ice cream sundaes. So I'm. I'm really excited to just. Just be a kid for the night and.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Not worry about cooking for friends.

[C]

So fun. I'm so sad we can't be there. I know. What about you, John? What are you excited about?

[D]

We're doing some French onion soup recipe testing.

[B]

If you need anybody to, you know.

[C]

Help test anything, let me know. French onion soup.

[D]

Oh, no. Yeah. I think we wanted to do a side by side because I think we. We call for, you know, like a. A pretty involved brown beef stock in order to put that together. And I think that, like, there's plenty of people out there that suggest just using water.

[C]

And I think Jacques Pepin actually suggests using water. I mean, that's pretty good. I guess we trust him. Yeah, we can trust Jacques.

[D]

Yeah. I don't know.

[E]

Good.

[D]

Good excuse to just, you know, make sure.

[C]

Yeah. And that's one of the things like. So as we're starting to think about writing the next edition, we're starting with the soups chapter. I don't know why we just picked that one. Because it's cold.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But one thing we keep thinking about is, like, okay, we love making stock, but I don't Think it's something that everyone just does as a habit and it's quite labor intensive and, and can be expensive, especially for beef stock if you're having to buy beef bones. So, like, how do we make these recipes a little friendlier if you're not doing that? And for French onion soup, since beef stock is a recommendation, store bought beef stock is just really not good, not very good. So we don't want people using a really not good store bought stock and making it and thinking that the recipe isn't good. So we're trying to figure out ways to make better recommendations for folks who aren't going to take the time to make a beef stock. Because that's a lot.

[D]

Yeah. Like soups with like a lot of, a lot of flavorful things going on. Does it really need the incremental improvement that a stock is going to add? So yeah.

[C]

Or can we. Yeah, can we. Can you use water? Will it be good with water? Is there a way you can flavor it that will make that work? But yeah, it's kind of on our minds. What about you, Kelly? What are you thinking about cooking or eating this week that you're excited about?

[A]

Ooh, I made a bunch of turkey stock from Thanksgiving. So I think I'm going to do a pot of beans. I'm going to delve into my bean bin. I don't have much storage in my kitchen, so all of my dragons live under my bed, which I think is really funny. I have to dig through the bean pile and figure out what, what delicious beans I'm going to cook. But I have that turkey stock. Yeah, that's, that's my plan.

[C]

Awesome. Where can listeners follow you?

[A]

Oh, I'm on Instagram at the backcountrycook and I have a website, thebackcountrycook.com I'm actually going to have trips launching in the next couple of weeks. So if anyone wants to come out, eat a delicious salad in the high country, get in touch. Yeah, I'd love to have you out. So I'm really excited. We have nine trips running next year and one of them will be a cooking trip trip. So I'm stoked on that. Yeah.

[B]

Also I really love your website and the packing list. Those are super helpful. People should check those out. If you're just like, what should I?

[C]

Oh, I'm glad.

[A]

I felt like I'm such a person who needs lots of information for clarity in the website. I was like, every page you're just like scrolling and scrolling. But I'm like You know what? Like people need to people have questions about sleeping bags, let's give them all the information they need to feel cozy.

[D]

I'll have to check that out. Shannon is a connoisseur of packing list.

[B]

I love a packing list.

[A]

Yeah, we just created a Google Doc for it. So like we're, we're updating. People can click on what they have and don't have.

[C]

I love a list.

[D]

Nice.

[C]

We will share links to all of those things in our show notes so you can use them. Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking Podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram @the joyofcooking. Stay tuned for next week where we will talk about. Well, I'm not sure yet. We'll probably talk about something game or.

[D]

Fish or either favorite holiday recipes or It's a surprise.

[C]

It's a surprise.

[A]

I like it.

[C]

And don't forget to make this week's recipe Campfire bananas on page 177. Call in with questions, hopes, history, or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

[B]

And we could not do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation production house. Thank you to Dave Druske, our production coordinator, Haley Bowers, our audio engineer, and Sarah Marshall, our producer.

[F]

If you love the stories we bring you each week, please consider supporting us on Patreon. As an independent media company, your support is absolutely essential. It allows us to continue creating high quality professional episodes that amplify the voice of of women, small business owners, writers, artists and creatives and keep their stories free from commercial pressure. By becoming a Patreon member, you're not just supporting us, you're investing in the future of independent Media. Please visit patreon.com thejoyofcreationproductionhouse to join our community today. Thank you for listening and supporting our podcast dreams.