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The Joy of Cooking Podcast
Lane Selman: A Caual Culinary Chat About Radiccio
01:06:17
Episode 36, Lane Selman: John and Megan set the table with their co-host and friend, Shannon Larson, and their guest, Lane Selman, to discuss Joy of Cooking recipes and stories, kitchen victories and miseries, and, most importantly, what they're all cooking and eating. Join us at the table for a casual culinary chat about Radiccio.
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- [00:00]
Lane Selman
Sa.
- [00:39]
Shannon Larson
Welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of the Joy of Cooking, kitchen victories and misadventures, and what we're cooking and eating right now. We're glad you've joined us at the table today. I'm Shannon Larson, home cook, Joy of Cooking user and fan and Japanese sweet potato enthusiastic.
- [00:58]
Megan Scott
I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night, and I will travel for fresh herbs.
- [01:08]
Jon Becker
I'm Jon Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook. And I have used five forms of garlic in the last 24 hours.
- [01:17]
Shannon Larson
I can't even smell your breath.
- [01:20]
Jon Becker
Well, you know, I try to freshen.
- [01:21]
Megan Scott
Up before these show before we talk to each other for an hour. I appreciate that, that. What has your week been like, Shannon? It's been really hot. What have you been cooking hot? It's pretty gross, actually.
- [01:33]
Shannon Larson
It's been awful. And I'm not a fan of heat. The reason I live in the Pacific Northwest is I like gray, kind of rainy, colder weather. I would actually like more snow in my life. So recently, I don't know if I mentioned this in the last episode, but I got my husband a Blackstone grill. And so that has been our kitchen during the heat wave, which has been really, really nice. I've loved it. And then we've done Japanese sweet potatoes with miso butter and furikake. And then I definitely all into the tomato toast right now.
- [02:03]
Megan Scott
Oh, yeah, yeah. Did you do the Japanese sweet potatoes on the grill or.
- [02:08]
Shannon Larson
No, I did that in the oven, but we paired it with everything else on the grill. We did like miso eggplant from the Joy and chicken thighs. Very simple. So it's been pretty simple, but nice. The tomato toast has been a highlight too.
- [02:20]
Megan Scott
Yeah, I made a version of tomato toast. So this week was a little weird because we made no fewer than two TikTok recipes, which we don't usually do.
- [02:30]
Lane Selman
That's so weird.
- [02:30]
Megan Scott
No, it's very weird for us. We're cookbook people. But we did two really good TikTok recipes. One was a brown butter miso corn pasta.
- [02:39]
Jon Becker
Yeah, we're all into miso, I guess.
- [02:41]
Shannon Larson
So it was like the theme.
- [02:43]
Megan Scott
And then I did a. There's a broiled cottage cheese toast going around. So you, you take cottage cheese, you mix it with what kind of whatever you want. I'D minced up like a hot chili and a green onion and then. And a little shredded cheddar. And then you pile that onto to toast and you broil it until the cheese, the cottage cheese, gets kind of brown and like speckled on top. And then I topped it with like fresh tomato slices. It's actually really good. I think it's going to become a staple breakfast because it's so fast. It's like a five minute thing. And it's more hearty than just a piece of toast.
- [03:17]
Lane Selman
Right.
- [03:17]
Shannon Larson
I. I try to eat cottage cheese a couple times a week too. That makes sense.
- [03:21]
Megan Scott
But really highly recommend. Okay.
- [03:23]
Shannon Larson
You have to send me that TikTok.
- [03:24]
Megan Scott
Don't really need a recipe.
- [03:25]
Shannon Larson
I don't even actually have TikTok on my phone because I got addicted to it.
- [03:29]
Megan Scott
So. Good for you.
- [03:29]
Shannon Larson
I know. I was like this for you.
- [03:34]
Megan Scott
I am not there. There's too many cat videos to watch.
- [03:37]
Lane Selman
That's the problem.
- [03:38]
Jon Becker
I feel like I get the cream of the crop from your.
- [03:41]
Megan Scott
Yeah. I curate John's TikTok experience. Experience. I send him only the best of the best.
- [03:45]
Shannon Larson
Maybe that's how I should. You should just send us.
- [03:47]
Megan Scott
Send them to you. Yeah. So we've been graced in our neighborhood with a new grocery store, 99 Ranch. Love it. And it's actually really awesome. It's now like not the closest grocery store, but the second closest. And speaking of fresh herbs in my intro. But the fresh herb selection is so much better than the little sad clamshells that make me really mad at the supermarket.
- [04:10]
Shannon Larson
Whole produce section is great. Yeah.
- [04:12]
Megan Scott
Yeah. Good. Lots of different kinds of fruit and herbs and noodles and all the things.
- [04:17]
Jon Becker
It's an asset for our area of town, you know. Definitely seems like we're underserved a little bit. So any newcomers are appreciated.
- [04:26]
Shannon Larson
And they have those claw machines as soon as you walk in. I just want to play those for cat toys.
- [04:30]
Megan Scott
I don't want to try one. But I'm also overwhelmed by the choices.
- [04:34]
Shannon Larson
Oh, they're all so cute.
- [04:35]
Megan Scott
Yeah.
- [04:36]
Jon Becker
How many of them are there? There's like five.
- [04:37]
Megan Scott
There's like 20. No.
- [04:39]
Shannon Larson
There's so many. Sorry.
- [04:40]
Jon Becker
Undercounted. Sorry.
- [04:44]
Megan Scott
We also made our Joy Scouts recipe of the week, which was the pistachio and rosewater kulfi. We brought them for you everyone to sample. They turned out really well. They taste more of. There's like three cardamom pods in there that you infuse the milk with. So they taste more of cardamom than anything else. The Rose water's not very strong and the pistachios are like just chopped up pistachios. But they're really good and the texture is nice.
- [05:10]
Jon Becker
I feel like that's how the order should go. It should be cardamom forward and then the rose water should be in the background. So I think they turn out good.
- [05:16]
Megan Scott
They're like chewy, almost the texture of them, which is really nice. It takes me forever to eat popsicles. I eat them like, I don't know, I don't eat them properly because my teeth are so sensitive that I just kind of have to gum them down, you know? It's really sad.
- [05:32]
Shannon Larson
The image was weird.
- [05:34]
Megan Scott
Yeah. Don't think, don't think about it too much.
- [05:37]
Jon Becker
Yeah. If we're like sharing a bowl of ice cream, it's really infuriating.
- [05:41]
Megan Scott
Yes. I take, I'll take one bite and it'll take me like six or seven, like licks to eat it all. Pray for me.
- [05:51]
Jon Becker
Two spoons. Gotta remember two spoons.
- [05:53]
Megan Scott
So if you make our pistachio and Rosewater Kulfi, page 853, post about it on Instagram and let us know how it goes. It's super easy. We made ours in popsicle molds so you, you don't have to get. I mean, the, the Kulfi molds are really cool, but you don't have to get special molds. And the Kulfi molds, they're like metal, like conical metal molds with little lids. Oh, they're really cool. But we don't have those, so we just used a popsicle mold. You could also use little like paper cups, like water cups, and then just peel the cup away from the. Yeah, the ice cream. Easy.
- [06:27]
Jon Becker
It would be easier than the popsicle mold we did use. I've had it with that. That popsicle mold is out.
- [06:34]
Shannon Larson
It's been cut.
- [06:35]
Megan Scott
Yeah, we're done. This week we'd like to welcome Lane Selman to the table. Lane Selman is a professor of practice at Oregon State University and a nationally recognized leader in the movement to connect agriculture, flavor and community. She grew up in Florida, where her childhood was shaped by working with her extensive Sicilian family on their citrus farm. Her connection to the land, her Sicilian roots, and time spent cooking each day with her Nona formed the foundation of her Life's work. In 2012, she founded the Culinary Breeding Network, a community driven initiative that connects plant breeders, farmers, chefs and eaters to develop and promote diverse, organic and flavorful varieties of vegetables, grains, pulses and fruits by helping Breeders create new varieties, promoting biodiversity and bringing people together. She has reshaped how we grow our food and how we celebrate it. Lane's work has been featured in the New York Times, Food and Wine, the Wall Street Journal, Civil Eats, Eating well and Sever. She is a dual American and Italian citizen and continues to deepen her roots in both places. Lane, welcome to the show.
- [07:36]
Lane Selman
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
- [07:39]
Megan Scott
What have you been cooking this week? We're in peak summer. Awesome produce time. So what's on your table?
- [07:46]
Lane Selman
Yeah. Okay, so this week, let's see. I make. I kind of make the same things on repeat. I'm a bit of a nona, so I make caponata a lot. I love eggplant. I tend to make it that way a lot. Or, like, I'll grill it and then kind, like, preserve it, like mint and, like, just keep it in the fridge and eat it like that. Let's see. I make zucchini fritters with mint a lot of times. I also make. I make these salmon, like, burrito things a lot from my. I have a son who is 17 and a boyfriend. He does a lot of fishing, and so he catches a lot of salmon and steel head and he. So he'll, like, grill it. And then I take the, like, corn and flour tortillas, you know, that you see new seasons. And this is, like, inspired by, like 20 years ago when I went to Hawaii and I got this burrito, and I'm like, oh, my God, I'm gonna come home and, like, recreate this. So you, like, put down the, you know, the burrito tortilla and then make like, a wasabi mayo or, like a miso mayo. Speaking of miso, spread that on there and then put like, a sheet of roasted seaweed. Sheet, you know, or like, toast it on the stovetop, put that in there, and then make, like, rice with, like, tons more, like, seaweed. I have this stuff called sea moss. I'm really into, like, a lot of accoutrements. Like, I always have, like, a ton of, like, little topping things. And so, you know, I have that, and I. I got it well spent. I have no idea really what it is other than like, some sort of dried seaweed. But it tastes different than, like, a furikake or something. Any which I also put on this. And then I. And I quick pickle, like, kind of just like momo fuko style, you know, like cucumbers or right now. We can maybe talk about this later. I use Armenian cucumbers or carousellos, which are actually immature melons, but use them just like cucumbers, but they're just, like, a little more firm. I do that. And like, carrots and put those in there. Avocad, you know, the salmon. And then, like, furikake and, like, kind of chili crisp or like, the hot garlic. All the different weird. Just throw some nigella seeds on there. Like, honestly, like, all the. I have, like, this hole, like, right next to my stove. Like, all these topping things. And, like, so anyway, it's, like, crunchy, and it's like, you know, it's kind of spicy and umami and I don't know.
- [09:57]
Shannon Larson
Mouse is watering right now.
- [09:58]
Megan Scott
I know.
- [09:59]
Lane Selman
So delicious. And I, like, cook them all the time for, like, my son and my boyfriend, but then also, like, you know, my fancy food friends that come over that are like, you know, full blown chefs. I make that, and they're just, like, perfectly happy, you know? So, yeah, I feel like I've been doing a lot of that type of thing, and I make a lot of galettes. It's just easy, you know, right now, like, all the great. Like, a frangipan, you know, And I went to Hawaii earlier this year to do a job, and I bought, like, tons of macadamia nuts. And so I brought back flour, too, which is just, like, the meal, you know, the ground up, like, almond meal or whatever. So sometimes I put that in, like, the pastry, and then also make a frangipan with that instead of almonds, and really delicious.
- [10:43]
Jon Becker
Sounds amazing. I would imagine that the macadamia meal is, like, maybe a little bit, like, more economical, too, than that almond. Well, just then, like, straight up whole macadamia nuts.
- [10:54]
Lane Selman
Oh, yeah, totally. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yeah. They had some byproducts there, too, that I was like, oh, I should take these home. Okay. They're pressing, like, the Mac nuts for oil, and then there's, like, a byproduct to the. It kind of looked like a rope. It was crazy. I just, like, ate it. I was like, whatever, I'm just gonna eat this. I couldn't bring all that stuff home, but, yeah, And I just put, like. I'm a really. Like, I know we're here and we talk about cookbooks or anything, but it's, like, funny because I have bazillions of cookbooks, like, a whole room. But I don't often use cookbooks. I have them to, like, look at them and be, like, inspiration. But then in the kitchen, I'm like, the opposite. And I'm not. I'm not saying I'm a very good cook. I'm just saying this is how I. Because I grew up with a grandmother, and you just cooked and you didn't use. So I rogue all the time, and you can't do that with baking. So I try to stay, like, really, like, firm to my galette recipe that Kier Jensen gave me, who had sugar cube, you know, in here in Portland. And it's very delicious. And I'm like, okay, Lane, just do this and just stay focused. But lots of people can't improvise, so I'm like, well, whatever. I guess I'm the opposite. But, yeah, it's. It is hard because I'm like, I could just put this thing in there. Like, I have this. I don't have that other thing.
- [12:03]
Shannon Larson
You know, I'm so guilty of that. I am terrible at baking for that one reason. I'm like, no, I want this in there instead.
- [12:10]
Megan Scott
Whatever. See, I do that with baking. I just add stuff sometimes. Yeah, but you're like, tweak it.
- [12:16]
Lane Selman
You. You know what you're doing. I understand the chemistry behind it, probably. I mean, it doesn't always.
- [12:23]
Megan Scott
It doesn't always work, so you're taking. You're always taking a risk. But it's fine. I think it's fine.
- [12:28]
Jon Becker
You learn from mistakes.
- [12:29]
Lane Selman
I mean.
- [12:29]
Megan Scott
Yeah, I learn way more from mistakes, actually.
- [12:31]
Lane Selman
I really, really love a Bundt cake because I feel like I can't really make cakes look super beautiful or as beautiful as I want. I grow. I do grow a lot of flowers, so I really, like. I do that, and then I'll, like, ice it or frost it, whatever you say. And it'll look terrible. Like, it'll taste great, but it'll look bad. And then I just, like, go in the garden and just put a whole bunch of, like, flat, edible flowers.
- [12:53]
Megan Scott
That fixes everything.
- [12:54]
Lane Selman
Or. But you can get, you know, the Bundt pans, and it's like, this is great. You know, and it's like, it just.
- [12:59]
Megan Scott
Comes out looking beautiful.
- [13:01]
Lane Selman
As long as it comes out.
- [13:02]
Shannon Larson
I did so much work on this.
- [13:03]
Jon Becker
Cake, but even then, you know, smell extra frosting or icing.
- [13:07]
Megan Scott
Yeah, Just patch it up and then drizzle some icing over, and it's fine. Yeah.
- [13:11]
Lane Selman
Oh, yeah. I've destroyed some bunk. I got one of those silicone ones recently, and that actually comes out, like, perfect every time.
- [13:19]
Shannon Larson
Oh, that's good to know, because I still can't do. Even do a Bundt cake. Like, it always comes out a little bit messy.
- [13:25]
Megan Scott
That's I think it's okay.
- [13:26]
Lane Selman
Okay.
- [13:27]
Megan Scott
And so silicone, that's the popsicle mold we were talking about earlier that is dead to us now, is a silicone mold. So I think it's just the way.
- [13:35]
Jon Becker
It was constructed because it's, like, constructed a staple up to really, you know, bear some weight when you're filling the popsicle molds. But it also creates this bubble situation in the center because there are these, like, cross, I guess, beams. Silicone cross beams. Anyways, so those bubbles. Those bu. The bubbles, like, keep the popsicle from thawing, like, up top when you're trying to unmold them when you put them in water. And so, yeah, we were struggling the bottom. Like, the tips of the popsicles end.
- [14:04]
Megan Scott
Up, like, melting, melting.
- [14:06]
Jon Becker
By the time the.
- [14:07]
Lane Selman
Yeah, yeah.
- [14:08]
Megan Scott
By the time the heart is thought a little bit. Yeah. Bummer. But it works better for bun cakes, I think. What summer produce do you try to eat as much of as possible before it's gone?
- [14:18]
Lane Selman
Okay, so at the. Well, this is spring, I guess, with the beginning. Here we go. I go. I love favas. So. So.
- [14:26]
Shannon Larson
Oh, my gosh.
- [14:27]
Lane Selman
So, yeah, I will eat just like. Like, is bazillion as much as I can possibly get a favas. And then I think. I mean, I do really like eggplant, which I find so curious that so many people don't like it. They're really weirded out by the texture, I guess. But it's so lovely because you can make all different types of, you know, cuisines are, you know, used with it. It just sucks up all the. Everything that you want. And so I feel like I eat a ton of those. I don't actually really like pepper. I do not like green peppers.
- [14:56]
Megan Scott
Same here.
- [14:58]
Jon Becker
Even the tiny, cute ones.
- [15:00]
Lane Selman
Yeah. I mean, I will eat, like, poblanos or something like that that are not but, like, green. Like, immature, like, exactly, like, not yet, actually at the mature stage. I don't like those at all. I don't like that harsh, like, vegetable kind of flavor. But I really love roasting. And I don't like to eat, like, raw peppers, and I don't even love them sauteed. But just talk about what I don't like. But I love them roasted so much. So I make tons of roasted peppers so that I can make romesco.
- [15:28]
Megan Scott
Like, all Romesco is so good. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Cosine. This is an eggplant friendly.
- [15:34]
Shannon Larson
I was just thinking that, like, in the very beginning, we talked about eggplant in every episode just to drive John crazy.
- [15:40]
Jon Becker
It was not just to drive me. It was totally organic.
- [15:43]
Shannon Larson
It was organic and it was like a cherry on top that it drove John crazy a little bit. So.
- [15:50]
Megan Scott
Now my sister is like, this is. The other day she was like, you're not beating these big eggplant allegations? Getting secretly pa. Big eggplant.
- [16:00]
Shannon Larson
I would take it.
- [16:03]
Megan Scott
So, Lane, do you end up traveling a lot for your job?
- [16:06]
Lane Selman
Yeah, I. I do. It comes and goes. I feel like because I work at a university, I feel like I have. I go to a lot of conferences and so I do that some. And then I do, you know, I organize these events. That one is called the Variety Showcase, which is really trying to kind of pull back the curtain on like what plant breeders do in the seed world. That a lot of people don't really know what that is, you know. And so I'm, you know, organizing these events where at all the different tables there are either, you know, plant breeders or seed growers that are there that are matched up with chefs. And so it's kind of presenting their work. And I try to really bring like art into it and have people like present it in a really artistic way because I kind of work in this academic world. So it's like, okay, let's don't have the handouts and the charts. Like, let's bring the beauty, you know. And so those, those a lot of times are tied to grants that I get. And most of them are federal grants, some are state grants and. But they can be. And I work on a lot of national projects. So a lot of the work I started doing was kind of like more regional and now it's more national. So I work a lot with like Cornell University, University of Hawaii, Clemson, you know, University of Wisconsin, Madison. So I kind of. That one is kind of like a traveling roadshow at this point. Like we had it here, the 10 year anniversary in Portland, which you guys have participated and everybody here has participated in. And so that was really fantastic. And then this year it's going to be in Madison, Wisconsin in October. And Then next in 2026 in August, it'll be at the Glenwood center, which is. It's a center for regional food and farming and it's in the Hudson Valley.
- [17:50]
Shannon Larson
That's awesome.
- [17:50]
Lane Selman
Of New York. And so it'll be there and then we'll go to the Southeast, which is kind of like uncharted territory. Like, I'm originally from the Southeast, but we haven't had this event yet. There's. And then it'll be back in Portland in 2020.
- [18:01]
Megan Scott
Where in the Southeast is it going to be?
- [18:03]
Lane Selman
Well, good question. We have not like solidified a location. We're looking at like maybe Durham or Raleigh, North Carolina.
- [18:10]
Megan Scott
Oh hell yeah. Please do it there. My family lives in North Carolina. So I will go, I will be there.
- [18:16]
Lane Selman
Yeah, yeah, I think that's really. Yeah. A central place. And also like I work with wholesale distributors, like organically grown company here and there's one called Happy Dirt maybe or something. Don't quote me on that. And there's a. But there's a wholesale distributor of organic produce that is in that area and I think I'll. Because that's what a lot of this stuff is. It's super community driven. Right. So it's like I'm going to like, like also like thinking about Hawaii and I'll talk about that in a minute. But like going into somebody else's community, it's like I don't know what the needs really are. And so for instance, I do work in Hawaii quite some. I have done three different events there and they have completely different needs than anything that we need here. You know, because they import so much of their food. And so we are trying really. That one is a little bit of a. When I do the Variety showcase is a bit of a blend between the Variety showcase, which is about seed, and the Sagra, which is really a celebration of what you eat locally. So they're very differentiated in my mind. And so I did the Variety Showcase in Hawaii the first time in 2018 and that was really cool. But then I was like, wow, we should just really, I think be really focused on kind of like what you can eat here because there's so much food you can eat there. But they import so much even as like avocados, they're like importing avocados from Mexico when they have avocados dropping off the tree that are just of different varieties. So trying to like shift the demand so that there's more, more self sufficient there but, but not coming in like oh, I know everything you need because I don't at all. But like working with local non profits and university groups that are already doing this work to kind of like utilize this brand of the culinary breeding network and kind of what that brings and connecting all the folks because really I feel like that's what it is. It's like this connection machine.
- [20:14]
Megan Scott
I would love for you to talk a little bit more in detail about what the Variety Showcase is and how, what the setup is like for someone who's never been there and also like the difference between that and the Sagra.
- [20:25]
Lane Selman
I started organizing the variety showcase in 2014 because I was working with a lot of different farmers in the Pacific Northwest, in Oregon and Washington that were having a lot of issues with different vegetables that they were growing and my diseases, insects, you know, nutrition management, all these different things. And every time we were trying to kind of like investigate from like that university perspective with my university hat on, right. Like, you know, problem that they were having, we would kind of go back to like, what variety are you growing? Like, what variety is this? What are the, you know, the genetics in that variety? And so we were always going to variety trials because for organic farmers and when you're not using a lot of chemicals and even if you have organic chemicals and you want to just use less what we always call inputs, right. So any kind of chemical assistance or even fertilizers or these types of things, inputs to minimize that, we can try to just find the varieties that just perform in the way that we want them to in this. We always call it the intended environment. Right. So the intended environment is an organic environment which operates in a very different way than one that utilizes conventional chemicals. So anyway, I was kind of becoming very aware of a lot of different organic varieties. Varieties that had bred for organic systems that were performing very well on organic farms compared to conventional are non organic varieties.
- [21:57]
Shannon Larson
Is this just varieties of everything?
- [21:59]
Lane Selman
Yeah, this. I mean, I was working with this project that we were trying to. It was called NOVIC and it was called the. There's always an acronym when you're dealing with academics.
- [22:07]
Shannon Larson
So many.
- [22:09]
Lane Selman
Northern Organic Variety Improvement Collaborative.
- [22:13]
Megan Scott
Okay.
- [22:13]
Lane Selman
And so we were working on a lot of like, we were working with broccoli and snap peas and carrots and a lot of different vegetables that we were trying to find varieties that perform really well on organic farms from organic seed. Because there is this loophole that is in. Or you can get organic certification without utilizing organic seed. If you've looked for the variety that you want in three different places, you don't find that variety you want, then you can just buy conventional seed. Right. And so there's not. Hasn't been like a serious push for more organic seed.
- [22:47]
Jon Becker
Is that literally the rule? Like you have to document that you've gone to three different sources for. Wow.
- [22:55]
Lane Selman
And there's a lot of backstory to all of that. And there has been in the past examples of not the best varieties that have been organic. Right. But there are tons now of varieties that are available that have been bred organically. And selected within that environment, if you can imagine. Let's just say corn, for example. Corn. Corn is a plant that, you know, basically germinates and it jumps out. You know, it grows. You want it to grow very fast. You want a variety to be very, very vigorous and grow very fast because it has shallower roots. And there's going to be all these weeds at the same time growing, right? So you want them to, like, grow really tall, get over the. Over the weeds, go to the sun, get. And then be able to, like, scavenge for the nutrients this and that. Well, if you are not selecting the individuals that do really well in that type of environment, in an organic environment, and you're like, oh, I'm just gonna, like, put down this herbicide to kill all, like, we can say glyphosate, right? Roundup. It's gonna kill all the stuff. Then you plant your, you know, you plant your corn seed. You're not actually putting those plants to the test as to whether or not they can indeed grow in this way. So we. What we do in, you know, when we're doing organic breeding is it's like we. You're basically planting it in that same type of system in which it's going to be growing. So you're putting it to the test. You're like, there are going to be weeds. You're putting it through veggie boot camp, and so then. Exactly. Veggie boot camp, exactly. And then you're like, say, like you have a hundred plants and you see 10 of them that are doing very well. If you're a plant breeder or a seed grower, you're pulling out all 90 of those or whatever, you know, say 50 that are not performing well. You only let those other ones grow because they actually have the genetics that you' looking for. When you don't do that and you have it in a conventional system and you put down the herbicide, you're never even seeing. And that's the most important thing for the corn really, you know, is to be able to do that at the very beginning of its life stage. So things like this I was finding out because, you know, I'm. I'm from a farming background. I studied agriculture in college and graduate school, all this stuff. But, you know, you. You don't know until you get out in the real world. And I'm like, oh, my God, like, this is so important. I didn't know that seed was so important. And it's something that sometimes people, farmers, gardeners, whatever, just kind of take for granted. And so when seeing all this work that we were doing when I was going out on farms and seeing these trials that were next to one another of conventional versus organic, there's also another layer of open pollinated versus hybrid, right? And so it was like we were trying to find open pollinated, which meant that then that allowed the farmers to have the ability to most crop, to be able to just save the seed that they wanted to from those plants and then grow it and get the same thing. When you plant the seed from a hybrid, you kind of get the genetics from those grandparents, and they can like whatever, not be the same color or size or perform the same, right? So that gets more complicated. Basically, what was happening was I was getting a lot of heavy duty information that I really felt like, whoa, people need to know about this. And so not just that, I also was like, how do these things taste? Like, that's what we're here today to talk about, right? It's like, well, maybe it grows really well, but it doesn't taste great. Or maybe it tastes great, but it doesn't grow well. We have to have both of these things, right? So anyway, then that's when I kind of brought chefs into the fold and realized, like, these chefs are really actually. Because I met them all at the farmer's market, and they are the ones that are so into it that they are not even just like ordering off a fresh sheet and getting deliveries at their restaurant. They actually want to go. They want to look at the produce, want to choose the thing, they want to talk to the farmer and that relationship they really like. But that's the farmer. They don't know the person, the seed, right? And it's G times E. We've talked about this before. I know it. We've talked about it before. Megan G times E is genetics times environment. So the seed and the environment, the farm in which it is grown, they have to have both of those have to be great for you to have, like, very good quality in the end. So anyway, bringing these chefs into the fold, I was like, whoa, this is really incredible because they actually can get this message out to the public, because the public isn't really like, hey, plant breeder at a university, like, let's talk, you know.
- [27:27]
Megan Scott
Yeah, I was gonna say, like, I think the cool thing about the Culinary Breeding Network and the Variety showcase is that, you know, I think for most consumers, this idea of, like, seed breeding is very abstract and hard to understand if you're not familiar with the concepts. So, like, it's such a cool way, get the message across through like, okay, here's this thing that tastes amazing and it also grows really well in this environment and it's organic. Yeah. So I, I love that you're pulling in. Kind of the ambassadors are like the chefs and they're delivering the delicious food, but it's also like, here's the story behind this.
- [28:00]
Lane Selman
Exactly. Thank you. Yes, they. So they can talk about on their menus, they can promote it, they can promote social media. But they could also come into the Variety showcase where let's say there's 40 different tables. When we do it at Portland, in Portland and you come to a table, it's an eight foot table. And there might be, let's say Jim Myers, who's a plant breeder that's breeding tomatoes, if you've ever seen indigo tomatoes, like the purple ones, he is responsible for bringing in those genetics from wild tomatoes. And you can like actually taste through different breeding lines, not yet released and still being worked on and selected on for him by him. So that you can't even open the seed catalog yet and get something like this. But he will possibly show, like, here's the two parents. So sometimes when it's like optimal and it's like the best display, you'll see like, here's two parents. And it's like, here's the parent of this particular tomato that we really like. Let's say that plant architecture, the plant architecture is such that, you know, whatever, like, I mean, that wasn't the best example. We'll say peppers. He breeds peppers. Right. And so he breeds peppers. And he. Yeah, you can see two, like the two different parents that he crossed for different reasons. And one of which, let's say, is a pepper that has really great plant architecture. Because if you can imagine being a farmer and having a thousand plants out there, it'd be really sweet if you had the plants that stood up and didn't like, we call it lodging just basically means falling over. And so the ones that don't lodge, the ones that don't have to be staked, because that's a lot of labor, that's a lot of costs, the tea stakes, all this kind of thing. So if you can find those that, that you know, are, don't have to have be staked or whatever. And then here's another one that we like the color of and the flavor of or something. And he will start with, and you say these are the cross, this is the cross, this is the parents. And just like with humans, then you get that, you know, the reproduction, the progeny of those, the F1, as we call it, the first generation, is. And then all of a sudden, you see so much diversity. And that's what the plant breeder does. And that's what I'm trying to show is, like, these are the decisions that breeders are making that are so important, and it has to do with the flavor, how the plants perform. It's all these things, you know, and so it's really cool. And it's also challenging, I think, to all the folks that have these tables, to be able to, in this kind of visual way, kind of show people. I'm like, look, we're not going to take them out to the field, which would be really cool, but you have to bring the field to them. You have to be able to show what this. You know, what you are actually doing and communicate that to, like, just general consumers.
- [30:43]
Shannon Larson
When I feel like it's so, like, as somebody who loves to garden, getting seeds that, you know are going to produce delicious things and also not be a ton of work, I mean, it sells itself, too. It's just like, yeah, I want those. Of course.
- [30:58]
Megan Scott
Also, listening to your description of how this process works, I. So this week, I read this little article about, you know, is anyone else experiencing sticker shock at the farmer's market? But listening to you, I'm like, oh, my God, we're not paying. We're not paying enough for these vegetables.
- [31:12]
Lane Selman
It's crazy how much work goes into all of it. Honestly, it really, really is.
- [31:17]
Shannon Larson
I love the science behind it, though. It's so fun.
- [31:20]
Lane Selman
So it's like kind of part science fair, you know, like, and then part, like, food event. So then we have the chefs there. And that really is, like, the sexy hook where it's like, I mean, if I was like, hey, we're gonna have, like, 40 tables. Like, plant breeders talking about climate change and how they're addressing it, or, you know, or they're like, so. But then we have, like, you know, all the chefs, and then they. So you can maybe come up to a table and taste raw, like, different tomatoes or different carrots. And look at all of these different. It's. We call them phenotypes, the way that they look, right? So it's like. Like, they could be orange and yellow and starburst kind of carrots and this and that. You taste all of them raw. Talk to the plant breeder. Tell them what you like. But then there's also a chef there that's taken one that we really want people to kind of to like, remember when they leave. And then they make like the elevated, like dish with it. And the, the chefs get so into it. They make, they do very interesting things. You know, they'll take like peppers, like, like mild heat, habanero peppers and make like a sherbet with it or something.
- [32:23]
Shannon Larson
Oh, fun.
- [32:24]
Megan Scott
Oh yeah, those are so good. The habanadas. Yeah.
- [32:26]
Lane Selman
The habanada is Michael Mazurek's from Cornell and then newly released ones from Jim Myers that are more adapted to the Oregon in the Pacific Northwest climate are called nadajada and mild thing.
- [32:39]
Shannon Larson
Nada had a mild thing.
- [32:41]
Megan Scott
Oh my God, I love it.
- [32:42]
Jon Becker
I'd heard of nada hata but not mild thing.
- [32:44]
Shannon Larson
Those are cute.
- [32:47]
Sarah Marshall
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- [34:08]
Megan Scott
Can you talk a little bit about conventional produce that you get at a regular supermarket is usually bred for yield and the ability to be transported long distances versus flavor. Other than like, oh, we love when things taste good. What are the benefits of growing, of trying to breed seeds that produce plants that produce fruit that that is really delicious other than just it tastes better. Are there other benefits to this kind of seed breeding?
- [34:39]
Lane Selman
Okay, so yes, like, even in the organic space, they could, like, have varieties that have been bred specifically for this. Like, higher yield, you know, shippability, kind of, you know, in more uniformity, because that's just easier for, like, farmers that are growing, like, one thing, let's say, you know, a lot of it, it can be, like, ease also of, like. Like harvest. Like in broccoli, like, exerted heads, they call it, where they, like, the head grows a little bit taller, so it's, like, further away from the leaves so you can get machinery in there. So so much of it is for just, like, efficiency as much as possible. And, yeah, I do think that flavor suffers under these circumstances. Like, we kind of call it, like a design brief. I heard a breeder talk about it like, that. They're like, this is the design brief. And, like, honestly, what is not on the design brief for what you are selecting for and looking for when you are creating a new variety, you lose. So if flavor isn't up there and it's not prioritized, you're gonna lose it because you're just thinking about these other things. But I think as, like, you know, sometimes people, you know, give you a hard time and about, like, oh, so bougie, like, you know, or it's like it's elitist or something. And I was like, I don't think there's anything elitist at all about caring about flavor. And I think that at the end of the. It actually is the opposite of that, because the better something tastes and you're talking about grains and fruits and vegetables and nuts and. And beans, the more likely they are to actually eat it. And we're up against, like, the crazy, you know, world of, like, food additives and chemicals and, like, Doritos and all this kind of thing, which are just addictive and are, like, you know, created to be in this way. And so I feel like if we have better. Better flavor, you know, produce and grains, then we get more people eating those things.
- [36:35]
Megan Scott
Yeah.
- [36:36]
Jon Becker
So elitist.
- [36:38]
Lane Selman
I mean, I'm almost like, whoa. Like, I was. You know, it's always surprising when you hear. I feel like I'm like, okay, yeah, you can fuss with it. You don't have to fuss with it. It's like when you heard about what I make at home, it's like when people comment and say, like, oh, you're like, a really great cook or whatever. I was like, I'm never doing anything complicated, but I always do start with really good quality stuff and just know how to not mess it up. I Guess to just be able to then serve it to people. But it's like you're starting with something that tastes really good.
- [37:08]
Shannon Larson
I've completely stopped buying any squash from, like, a big grocery store. I can't do it because I. I was like, I don't think I like squash. And then I just started only growing them or eating them from the farmer's market. And I was like, oh, I love squash. Yeah, it actually has a lot of flavor.
- [37:24]
Jon Becker
It's actually pretty funny. I feel like one of the first. Aha. Moments I had at a variety show, too. Case was there was, like. There was a sampling of winter squash seeds, and one of them tasted like cheese.
- [37:34]
Megan Scott
I remember those. The pumpkin seeds that tasted like blue cheese or something.
- [37:38]
Lane Selman
They were so good.
- [37:40]
Megan Scott
It was crazy. It was a crazy experience. It's like, what is this magic? Where do I get these?
- [37:46]
Jon Becker
I'm glad you brought up, like, how, you know, you cook these things, simply because I remember I had, like, a really silly question, or I felt like afterwards, like, oh, boy, that was a silly question for Elaine. But it was, you know, all these new varieties, I was just like, you know, does that really affect anything about how you're cooking them? And the answer is no. It's just like, you're starting off with, like, something that's much, much tastier.
- [38:07]
Lane Selman
I think so. I think, like, people ask a lot of times about, like, let's think about it. I mean, I think about Italy a lot, right? And. And it's like, they're like, how is this so perfect? Like, this thing at the. Let's just say a dish at the end of the day. But it could be things beyond food. But I'm like, people in Italy care. I feel like, for the most part, it seems like so much about quality that every single step of the way, it is not compromised. And I remember, you remember when Joy of Cooking had, like. You guys were in that G times E room, and we were talking about, like, how fl. Like, outside of the G, which is genetics. So now we're talking about, like, the E. I remember we were looking at, like, different types of soil and how that affected the same variety of carrot. And we allow people to, like, taste different. Like the same variety of carrot, but grown in different soils. And then also, like, lettuce that was harvested in the morning versus the afternoon, and then, like, maybe washed with, like, warm water, cold water. And so you think about each step of the way. If you had someone that was really very, very focused on quality that whole way, the finished product that you would get at the end versus, like, if you're always, every step of the way, like, compromising for economics or just, like, yield or whatever. More of it. I was just talking to Sandro that has Pinolo gelato about, like, the difference in pistachios that are here in the US In California versus the ones that are in Sicily. And I mean, they're, like, drastically different.
- [39:43]
Jon Becker
It is so stark, so different. It's just insane.
- [39:46]
Lane Selman
And it's like. I just think about it, about being in a situation where it's like, every. If there's, like, 10 steps, it's like, well, you know, there's a lot of different areas for things that get messed up.
- [39:59]
Megan Scott
Yeah.
- [40:00]
Lane Selman
Yeah, right there, you know? Okay. So then I was organizing these variety showcases and doing the work that I did with Seed. And then I kind of. Sometimes I feel like I'm Steve Buscemi in the Portlandia episode where he's the PR representative for Celery. I don't know if you remember this episode, but I remember being like, hey, this isn't funny at all. This is so, like, a personal slam on my life.
- [40:28]
Megan Scott
Too close to home.
- [40:30]
Lane Selman
But I feel like that's kind of what happened where I kind of became, like. I mean, I don't use the word influencer or whatever, but I mean, like, I became known for, like, having an effect or an influence on, like, what farmers were growing a lot of. Right. So I was working on a project with winter squash, and we talked about winter squash a little bit. So in winter squash, I mean, the key word here is winter. And so a lot of the winter squash in, like, the grocery stores are being. It's being pushed to, like, have it earlier and earlier, which is not good for the public image of the winter squash. Right. So it's like, we have it, like, now. Like, we right now are recording this at the end of August and let's say, the beginning of September. Like, we don't need to be eating that. We have so many other things.
- [41:19]
Shannon Larson
There's delicata in the grocery store in, like.
- [41:21]
Megan Scott
Yes.
- [41:22]
Lane Selman
Right.
- [41:22]
Shannon Larson
Yeah.
- [41:23]
Lane Selman
And, I mean, I'm really into saving those things and, like, looking forward to them in the season in which they should be. Right. And when they're going to taste the best and when consumers are going to have the best experience with them. Right. That's been the push. But I was working with farmers to try to find winter squash varieties that tasted really great, but also, like, stored as well as long as possible because it's winter squash, and the Whole like, you know, the job of the winter squash is to store into the winter, not be done at Thanksgiving. That should be the first time. We also have like some winter squash for the season, I feel like. But that's sometimes when people are like burned out by it. They're like, okay, I'm after. It was like, no, no, no. So we, we actually had like some probably bumper stickers that said put the winner back in winter squash and all these and all this kind of stuff. But we heard from farmers, I mean, delicat. So there's also like three different species of winter squash that we're talking about. And so like delicato is a pepo, which is actually a pepo. The species is the same as like a summer squash. They do not store as well anyway. But then we have moschata and maxima also. And so actually the ones that are the most popular here on the west coast, which are the delicata and the not types at this time now we have a few others that have gotten popular were the ones that did that stored the worst. And it was like, well, this is terrible. And you know, farmers are like losing money on it. Like, they're harvesting them earlier. They're not tasting as good. They're like selling them before they need. Two people are having a bad experience and thinking terrible things about winter squash. And then they're rotting and then it's like, there you go. That's the season. And it's only, you know, November. So anyway, we started having this thing called like Squash Party and bringing together all of these farmers and chefs and kind of like retailers to like, kind of talk about like, okay, like, how do we market these other squash that we were, we were finding out from field trials. So like, I'm kind of like the person, like the, the work that I do is kind of like the very public facing stuff. But all of it has trials that are happening in the background that most people don't see. Sometimes they do when we have field days and people come to it, but not as many as like a, you know, a food event. So anyway, Squash parties, yes, we were fine. Squash party. We knew which ones performed really well, but they were the ones that were like, God, how are we going to get like consumers to eat these things? So we would get all together and talk about this and then we had our first like, saga, but it was called Squash Party. And we like, we did it in conjunction with friends and family farmers and they had like a farmer's market for like the winter where you like, stock up and buy a bunch of things. And then we, like, had this huge display of all these winter squash. Told people about them, let them taste them. We had hats, you know, the whole thing, it was like, all crazy and fun, like a little festival.
- [44:10]
Shannon Larson
What did the hat say?
- [44:11]
Lane Selman
Well, we just had like, there was this, like, funny hats that you could wear and get your picture taken. It was called a squash is a cucurbit. Right. So we called it cucurbit. Cuddles. And so you could, like, cuddle, like your favorite. Because a lot of the squash, imagine.
- [44:25]
Megan Scott
Very cuddly. Yes. They're very, like, cute and warty and imagine.
- [44:29]
Lane Selman
Yeah, big ones that are all warty and crazy and huge. Because that's the problem too, that a lot of the ones that were, like, super awesome tasting and storing are really big now. Like, chefs will use those like crazy, and they love them. But people at farmers markets and grocery stores want, like a single serving. You know, they want that. Some reason they're scared to, like, cut the squash and save some of it for whatever reason. And because of food safety regulations in the United States, you know, you have to, like, cut them in like, a food safety, like, approved, you know, like a kitchen. And then you put them with, like, around, like, Saran wrap or something. It looks like like a squash condom. The way you see, like, it doesn't look sexy. Like, you go to Italy or France or somewhere, and they've got a beautiful, like, savoy cabbage leaf. Yeah, yeah. They've open air cut France.
- [45:17]
Megan Scott
They just will, like, take a huge pumpkin and cut it into wedges and sell that at the farmers market. So nice.
- [45:23]
Lane Selman
You're not allowed to do that here. Can't have any fun here. Now I sound bougie, so we can't do that. So that is the problem. Right. So anyway, then I went to terra madre into Italy for the first time in 2014, and I was introduced to the concept of the sagara. And I saw like a little flyer, little accordion, like, flyer. It was like sagara del zuca. And so it was the winter squash saga. And I was like, oh, that's a cooler word. And that really. And I started looking into what a sagara is and a sagra is actually celebrating something local. It could be a dish like radicchio risotto, or it could be like the red celery that we grow here or whatever. That's something that's local, that is culturally important and, like agriculturally important, usually in an area. And then that's when I started Calling these the Sagra. So in my mind, the differentiation is. The Friday showcase is educating people about. About plant breeding and the seed world, which is behind the scenes. And then the Sagra is more like just the celebration of what we can eat local. And I've really kind of moved that into, like, kind of the underdogs. It's like the things. The culinary things. Maybe the eggplant, maybe the fava bean, like, maybe purslane. I don't. You know, barley, buckwheat. Like, a lot of things I work with are actually things that should be more prevalent in our culinary world because they do grow very well here. They're adapted here. They're wonderful, wonderful. It's a wonderful way to support local farmers. But kind of shifting that demand and cre. You know, creating demand for that here.
- [46:57]
Megan Scott
I feel like that resonates really well with Americans, too, because we love our little food festivals. Like, we have all these re. We already have all these regional. Like, there's the Garlic Fest, and then on the east coast, they have, like, ramp festival. So I think people just love a. Love a vegetable party.
- [47:11]
Lane Selman
Oh, my God. I know. Do you remember the beginning of this Severe magazine? And they would have, like, all the. All the festivals in the beginning, like, at the beginning of the magazine. I know. I love that.
- [47:20]
Megan Scott
What is your relationship with the Joy of Cooking? Is it a cookbook that you have ever used, or did you grow up with it?
- [47:26]
Lane Selman
I have it, and I have. Look, because as you guys know, I don't really use cookbooks, but it's like a staple, right? I have, like, a few cookbooks that are on my shelf that. It's like, if I'm going to make something that I need to make it the proper way, whether it's like roasting a chicken or making like, a strata for the morning or something. Something. I go to. The Joy of Cooking. I go to. I also like. There's a couple others that I have. Right?
- [47:49]
Megan Scott
Yeah.
- [47:49]
Lane Selman
And those are like. Because those are tried and true. They are. You know, they are the OG they are the ones that are like, this is the recipe that you use. They're vetted. And I know that I'm gonna get what I. I need there.
- [48:02]
Megan Scott
This is a really fun episode for us because I feel like a lot of the new veggie information, especially veggies that we added in the 2019 edition are in large part because we've been going to, like, the variety showcase and tasting all these really cool varieties and wanting to tell people about them or just like, Fun ways that we've learned to cook them or, you know, anything. I, I don't know, I can't think of a specific example, can you?
- [48:27]
Jon Becker
I'm just like, well, getting back to radicchio, like, I feel like we, we've definitely like covered more varieties of, of chicories. You know, I don't know, I feel like we, when we talked about dandelion greens, it was always in the foraging context, whereas the cultivated dandelion greens are actually a variety of chicory. So, so, you know, just things like that. I feel like, yeah, our experiences at the variety showcase as well as Portland Farmers Market just generally really, really informed our vegetable chapter and the salad chapter. Yeah.
- [48:58]
Megan Scott
So each week we answer a caller question and this week we're going to talk about kale and radicchio. Sarah, can you read the question?
- [49:05]
Caller
Please hit us with your best unsung kale and radicchio recipes.
- [49:10]
Lane Selman
Winter's coming.
- [49:14]
Megan Scott
So I'll go first and I'll start with kale because honestly I use, I think I pretty much only use radicchio in salads. I mean, we eat a lot of radicchio based salads because we love radicchio, but we don't cook it very much.
- [49:29]
Jon Becker
That's actually one of the questions I was going to ask you. I can get back to that.
- [49:33]
Megan Scott
Yeah, we'll start. Okay, we'll start with kale because I have lots of kale thoughts, but that we're actually going to be assigning, assigning a kale recipe this week. And I'll wait, wait for that. But my latest favorite kale dish is really simple. It's just like a coconut milk braised kale. So I just saute like a habanero pepper. And if you aren't a spicy person, you could use half of a habanero or you could use mild. Yeah, a banana or a, what was the other one?
- [50:01]
Jon Becker
Not a hotter wild thing maybe.
- [50:04]
Megan Scott
Wild thing. And then a little bit of garlic. Saute that for like a minute, a.
- [50:10]
Shannon Larson
Minute and a half.
- [50:10]
Megan Scott
Half. And then I'll add my kale shredded kale. I usually use lado, but it doesn't really. I mean you can use any kind of kale and then add probably for one bunch of kale. I might use half a can of coconut milk, usually not the full can unless I'm making a really big batch and then maybe like a tablespoon or so of fish sauce. So it's really simple. There's not very many ingredients, but it just comes out tasting so rich and velvety. And a little bit spicy. And then it's got the saltiness from the fish sauce, but it doesn't taste fishy. It just tastes, like, savory.
- [50:43]
Shannon Larson
I do something like that, too. And what's nice is you can pair it with so many different things to make a full meal, like, obviously, rice, but then any kind of protein you want, like tofu or salmon or chicken or whatever. So good.
- [50:55]
Megan Scott
Exactly.
- [50:55]
Jon Becker
Yeah. It's like our house creamed spinach type thing.
- [51:00]
Shannon Larson
Yeah.
- [51:00]
Megan Scott
Yeah.
- [51:00]
Shannon Larson
Better. Totally.
- [51:02]
Megan Scott
You can use kale instead of escarole. It's different flavor profile. But you can use kale in a dish called utica greens, which is a really awesome dish from upstate New York, where you. You like, saute prosciutto and garlic and pickled peppers, and then you add your greens, and it's kind of cook them down just a little. Then you make this breadcrumb, like a seasoned breadcrumb mixture that you put on top and broil it. So it's got, like, parmesan in there and herbs and prosciutto. And prosciutto. It's so good. Yeah. And it's. It's made with escral, but kale works really well because it's like a sturdy, sturdy green.
- [51:40]
Jon Becker
Yeah, it holds up nicely.
- [51:41]
Shannon Larson
That's called Utica greens. Writing that down.
- [51:44]
Megan Scott
It's also in Joy of Cooking.
- [51:46]
Shannon Larson
Oh, convenient.
- [51:49]
Jon Becker
Yeah. No, it's almost a meal in itself. I'm always kind of at a loss as to what to pair it with, because I just want to eat all of it in one sitting.
- [51:57]
Megan Scott
But do you have any kale ideas, John?
- [51:59]
Jon Becker
Caldo verde is something we really fall back on. That's been in the books since the 90s, since the 97 edition. But, yeah, it's a really simple, brothy soup. You know, you have some sliced potato in there, and so some of it get. Some of the potato gets broken up and thickens the broth a little bit. Some sliced sausages in there. It's very simple soup. And, you know, it's finished with some lemon juice. So, yeah, it's just really nice and bright, especially during the winter dinner. It seems like it's just kind of livens up the taste buds, and it's got. It's got all the greens. It's good for you.
- [52:32]
Shannon Larson
I feel like kale is such a great thing to just add to a soup. Yeah, it adds, like, good texture, and, you know, it's good for you.
- [52:40]
Megan Scott
What about you, Shannon? Do you have. Other than what we've already talked about, do you have any favorite.
- [52:44]
Shannon Larson
Are we moving on a kale? Well, I definitely do a similar thing. We do a salmon stew with kale with coconut milk and a lot of lime and, and fish soup sauce. And that's a big go to for us for radicchio. I love radicchio in a Caesar salad. I think it holds up against a Caesar, like especially a homemade Caesar dressing with like extra anchovies, which is how I like just hold the flavor profile holds up so well. So that's my favorite way.
- [53:11]
Megan Scott
Agree.
- [53:12]
Shannon Larson
Brazed radicchio. I'm getting into more and more. I'm trying to cook it more often and not just eat it fresh.
- [53:18]
Lane Selman
So.
- [53:18]
Shannon Larson
So it's a goal.
- [53:21]
Megan Scott
Any radicchio thoughts, Lane?
- [53:23]
Lane Selman
Yes. No way. Kale thing.
- [53:26]
Megan Scott
Sure. Yeah. Any. Any ideas you have?
- [53:28]
Lane Selman
All the things that you said are great and I do like, I really, really love it with coconut milk, coconut cream. It's really delicious. I do that a lot. I really love. And I've never actually made it, but my friend Sarah makes it all the time. It's like the, the kale, like sauce with pasta.
- [53:44]
Megan Scott
Yes.
- [53:45]
Lane Selman
God, so much.
- [53:46]
Jon Becker
That is really good.
- [53:46]
Lane Selman
I love that. And then again, you know, I cook a lot of times with my son and my boyfriend and they asked me one day to make chili, which is maybe something I would go to like joy of cooking maybe, I don't know. Or like something like this. Cuz I don't know what is supposed to be in there. And I just was, you know, I wing it in the kitchen and I did like a white bean and like kale and anchovy thing. Oh my gosh, that's good. But that is not chili. That's a. That's very delicious together.
- [54:13]
Jon Becker
Sounds delicious. And also upsetting to many people.
- [54:17]
Lane Selman
You know, they were like watching football and it was like, here you go. And like, oh God. It reminded me of everything I ever tried to make with my grandmother. Just turned Italian. I'm like, let's make this like Vietnamese thing. And then she'd be like, let's put a little rosemary in it. I'm like, it would just get all whack anyway. Yes, I have a lot of thoughts about radicchio. And you'll be very happy to know that in, in this book that is coming out In October of 2026, there are 48, I believe, recipes that will be in there. And that was the whole like, my whole mission with like the recipe part was to introduce the American audience to a lot of the like, ways that Italians eat it. Which is a lot more cooked than fresh.
- [55:00]
Shannon Larson
Well, and I think that's what we need help with. Like, I feel like I need help with figuring out how to cook radicchio more often, especially because I think, think some people don't like the bitterness of the fresh radicchio the way that I like. I love bitter, so it's a flavor profile I love. Not everybody loves it. And when I've cooked it in the past, it cuts that down significantly. And I feel like it's more palatable to some people who might not exactly love that flavor.
- [55:24]
Lane Selman
So it is like the salad part is like, you know, the things that we think about and like it. It wants something strong to kind of like, you know, match the strength of the, the bitterness in the Reiki. So like anchovies or like blue cheese and like these like, kind of like stronger flavors that go really well with it. Or you can go the other way and do something like sweet and do like apples or persimmons or something else with it to kind of balance it out. And there's two recipes that I'm just like popping off in my head that I think about that I really love. One in the, in the book is going to be with escrow, but you could do it with any of the radicchio. And because it's chicorice and radicular, they're in the cause that is cicoria and divia. And then radicchio is cicoria intavis. But with this, it's kind of like a, it's a galette. And then you just cook down like a ton of escarole. And it's like anchovies and parmesan. And it's just like very, very simple to make and absolutely delicious. And you can do it covered or you can kind of do it open faced. So it's like not as much, you know, dough if you don't want. And then another one was a recipe that we got from my friend Meredith Mol, owns La Medusa, which is a Sicilian restaurant up in Seattle. And it's like a bucatini pasta dish, right? And you actually take, let's say a kyoja, which is the round one. You could do, you could do Verona, a lot of the other types, but a lot most people are finding, if they're all over the country, you know, like the, the keojja, and you cut it kind of into four wedges, like, you know, quarter it, and then you blanch it first in the water before you cook the pasta, you blanch it and you take it out and then you cook the pasta in that water and it kind of turns it purple.
- [57:05]
Megan Scott
Oh, that's pretty.
- [57:06]
Lane Selman
Yeah. And then you chop that up and it's like lots of garlic anchovies. Like a lot of the time it's like, I mean, I love anchovies so much. It's like some of the flavor profiles are on repeat. Sometimes it's just like that's just what works really well. And then you finish it off with like a little bit of cream. Actually put the bucatini in there and it is absolutely delicious. And do like, you know, like toasted walnuts. Really, really yummy. And then there's actually a couple of cakes that are in there because there is a traditional cake.
- [57:35]
Jon Becker
Yeah. I was snooping on, you know, Sean Lenahan's website. She has some of the photography from the book and yeah, I saw that. What, two different cakes and a marmalade.
- [57:45]
Lane Selman
Good job. Yes. Snooper. Yes. There's the traditional cake that is made. Made in Chioggia, which is a town in the Veneto. And, and so there's that. And it's, it's, it's kind of like you can think of it as like a carrot cake or something, you know. But then a few years ago at I think the. No, it was at the Saga del Radicchio. I asked Darby, who is the chef and co owner at Pizza Thief here in Portland, if I was like, can you make like a really great tasting version of this cake? I mean we actually. The cake that is in the recipe, like the traditional cake cake, the recipe we put into the cookbook is. The radicchio book is very good, but I have had. It is pretty dry in Italy and not so great. So I kind of told him like, this is what the cake is like in Italy and then he made his own version with like chocolate. It has cocoa in it. It has, it has beets kind of remnant of like, you know, red velvet cake or something. It has pistachios.
- [58:45]
Megan Scott
It.
- [58:46]
Lane Selman
Anyway, it's quite delicious. So both of those are in there. Yes. There's a granita that Margaret Waterbury is the co author and she came up with that recipe. We were trying to do a gelato because we've had it in Italy before and as Sandro from Pinolo made one here for the Sagra. But it's very hard to duplicate that in a home recipe. So we did the granita and so there's a few, you know, desserts. Is a marmolata like you said. Yes, that you could put, like, on a biscuit, a little cookie, and there's like a grappa and a lot of different salads.
- [59:19]
Jon Becker
Yeah, the grappa was really intriguing. Is that a traditional preparation or is it something that's.
- [59:24]
Lane Selman
We've had it in Italy.
- [59:25]
Shannon Larson
Yes.
- [59:26]
Lane Selman
It's funny. They do, like. They'll do, like, a radicchio, like beer and infuse, like, amari and grappa and a lot of different, like, beverages and stuff.
- [59:36]
Jon Becker
I mean, beer definitely makes sense, you know, just as a substitute or, you know, something to reinforce the hops or whatever.
- [59:42]
Megan Scott
Now I'm thinking of, like, a radicchio bitters. Like, a homemade bitters would be really good. I might try that this year. So look for a radicchio cookbook in fall of 2026.
- [59:52]
Lane Selman
Yes.
- [59:53]
Megan Scott
Awesome. I'm very excited for that. And I wanted to announce our Joy Scouts recipe of the week, which is Rachel's kale and lentil salad, on page 130 of the 2019 edition. This is a recipe that we had it at our friend Rachel. Rachel's house, and she makes it all the time. And it's really delicious and simple. It sounds very healthy, and I guess it is, but it's also very good. And it's just la snado, kale and cooked. I think we call for brown or green lentils, but black lentils are really good in it too. If you make that, please tag us on Instagram. And if you have a topic, ingredient, or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. We would love to hear from you. Next week's topic comes from our caller.
- [60:40]
Caller
The yogurt at my local store has a bunch of added ingredients. I want to make it at home. Do you have an easy guide or recipe?
- [60:47]
Megan Scott
Fun. We get to talk about yogurt next week, which is a subject very close to my heart. Was everybody cooking this week?
- [60:53]
Shannon Larson
Well, originally we were going to go backpacking, and I was excited to think about some fun dinner, but we adopted a kitchen cat, so we're gonna stay home.
- [61:00]
Megan Scott
Gotta take care of Claude. Claude is so sweet.
- [61:03]
Shannon Larson
Yeah, yeah, he's a. He's a dude, man. So we're gonna stay home, but we are gonna go see Jaws at the drive in.
- [61:12]
Megan Scott
Yes.
- [61:13]
Shannon Larson
Sunday night with some friends and their daughter. And so I need to message our previous guest Claire and get some ideas of what she did with her, like, boyfriend's birthday.
- [61:24]
Megan Scott
They watch Jaws.
- [61:25]
Shannon Larson
I to want to Do Jaws themed snacks. That's my goal. That's it. It's just Jaws Jaws food.
- [61:34]
Jon Becker
You know, shark gummies that resembles. Never mind.
- [61:37]
Shannon Larson
Like a leg.
- [61:39]
Megan Scott
Severed limbs, legs.
- [61:41]
Jon Becker
Or maybe a porridge of some kind.
- [61:43]
Lane Selman
Yeah.
- [61:43]
Shannon Larson
I mean, if anybody thinks of anything, message us.
- [61:49]
Megan Scott
I'm on the hunt for buckwheat groats because I really want to try adding them to my granola recipe because I love the flavor and I think they'll have a really nice texture in there. But it's harder than I thought to find them. I looked at our. Well, they're just like buckwheat. The whole buckwheat before it's ground. So like whole kernels or. I'm not sure. What is there a term for buckwheat?
- [62:11]
Lane Selman
That's it. The groats or the seed. And good thing that you have a buckwheat zine now.
- [62:16]
Megan Scott
I know. I'm so excited.
- [62:17]
Lane Selman
They will tell you where the sources are for that. And also a bunch of recipes, including a granola, too.
- [62:22]
Megan Scott
Awesome. Yeah. So I got buckwheat on the brain, but it was. It's been hard to find, like, even in the bulk bins at, like, our local natural foods store. They didn't have. They didn't have buckwheat. I'm glad that I now have some new sources to check out for that Roman Russian market. Oh, yeah. Probably a Eastern European.
- [62:39]
Lane Selman
Yeah. You. I can see this on here if you want. Can get some imported ones that are from at Kotchka in their little store, but Camas Country Mill sometimes has it.
- [62:48]
Megan Scott
Okay.
- [62:49]
Lane Selman
Also Lonesome Whistle might have it. That's a good idea. Chimacum also Chimacum Valley Greenery has some sometimes and there's a few others that are in there.
- [62:59]
Megan Scott
Okay, cool. Well, thank you.
- [63:01]
Shannon Larson
Done.
- [63:02]
Megan Scott
Done.
- [63:02]
Shannon Larson
Check that out.
- [63:03]
Megan Scott
Yeah, exactly. We got some royal corona beans in our bean box most recently, and we're going to try marinating them in aguachile, which is like a delicious green. I mean, I think there's other colors. Right? Don't quote me on that.
- [63:19]
Jon Becker
Yeah, I'm not.
- [63:19]
Lane Selman
I'm not the one.
- [63:20]
Megan Scott
The agua chile we make all the time is a green one. And it's so. It's like cilantro, lime juice, maybe some onion, some I. I add cucumber to it.
- [63:30]
Jon Becker
Well, we have a lot of cucumber right now, so it's definitely going in there.
- [63:32]
Megan Scott
We have so much cucumber and you blend it all up. Oh, and green chilies, so as spicy as you want and then salt and you blend it up. And usually you're marinating raw fish or, you know, cook some shrimp in there. There. Or like raw scallops that kind of get cooked in the acidic marinade. It's like a type of ceviche. But we're gonna try that with the royal corona beans because I think that would make a super delicious aguachile.
- [63:55]
Shannon Larson
That sounds really good.
- [63:56]
Megan Scott
What about you, Lane? What are you cooking this week?
- [63:58]
Lane Selman
Well, I need to get on the elotes because, you know, the corn season is so ephemeral. I love that. And I have actually been, like, very obsessed lately with halloumi, so I just want to, like, grill it or saute it or whatever. So I mean, I feel like during this time of year, I'm just like, just trying to get as many just simple ingredients into my mouth. Yes. And not me. And I just not keeping it not too heavy or anything like that. But I do love. I love corn.
- [64:29]
Megan Scott
And before we wrap, where can listeners follow you?
- [64:32]
Lane Selman
Oh, you can follow Instagram. Culinary Breeding Network is probably like the most up to date. There's a website also, so you can sign up also for like a newsletter that maybe comes out twice a year. It just alerts you of things, but it, it really is like Instagram is the best way.
- [64:50]
Megan Scott
Awesome. Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram heofcooking. Stay tuned for next week where we will tackle yogurt. And don't forget to make this week's recipe, Rachel's kale and lentil salad on page 130. Call in with questions, hopes, history, or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.
- [65:22]
Shannon Larson
And we couldn't do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation production house. Thank you to Dave Dresky, our production coordinator, Haley Bowers, our audio engineer, and Sarah Marshall, our producer.
- [65:32]
Caller
If you love the stories we bring you each week, please consider supporting us on Patreon. As an independent media company, your support is absolutely essential. It allows us to continue creating high quality professional episodes that amplify the voices of women, small business owners, writers, artists and creatives and keep their stories free from commercial pressure. By becoming a Patreon member, you're not just supporting us. You're investing in the future of independent media. Please visit patreon.com backslash the joy of Creation Production House to join our community today. Thank you for listening and supporting our podcast Dreams.