Maggie Hoffman: A Casual Culinary Chat About Black Currant Vinegar

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: The Joy of Cooking Podcast
Episode Title: Maggie Hoffman: A Casual Culinary Chat About Budget Recipes
Date: November 26, 2025
Host(s): Shannon Larson, Megan Scott, John Becker
Guest: Maggie Hoffman (Dinner Plan Podcast/Newsletter, ex-Serious Eats, Epicurious)

This episode features a relaxed, convivial conversation with food writer, cookbook obsessive, and podcaster Maggie Hoffman. The hosts and Maggie dive into the creative heart of everyday cooking, discuss the stress and joy of holiday hosting, modern recipe pet peeves, cookbook collecting, batch cocktails, what to do with unusual ingredients, and strategies for avoiding burnout in the kitchen—all with an eye toward home cooks looking to make delicious, affordable food.

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Main Discussion Themes

The Joy of Cooking’s Influence

• Maggie reflects on Joy's presence in her childhood home: a 1964 edition with handwritten notes, food stains, and mysterious family history.
• Megan describes Joy as a “silent partner” in countless kitchens:

  “It has been behind many, many, many, many dinners in this country and beyond...it makes me feel part of a really big community of home cooks...” (14:03)

Thanksgiving Traditions & Non-Traditions

• Maggie shares her “Thanksgiving Moments” approach—making a few favorite dishes across several days, not all at once (07:23).

• Discussion about non-turkey Thanksgivings: seafood gumbo, lamb, and stretching holiday sides throughout the month.

• Family un-negotiables:

  “Pumpkin pie from an old community cookbook...there’s a picture of the stained page we text each other every year.” (09:48, Maggie)

• Home cooks discuss cooking “by feel” versus following tradition—embracing cracked pies, quick caramel hacks, and “going all in.”

Recipe Writing Pet Peeves and Process

• Maggie’s editorial perspective:

  “When I see a recipe that has a little bit of voice in it, a little bit of personality, that always makes me happy...but I want a visual, I want you to really describe what I should be smelling and seeing.” (15:17)

• Everyone agrees that testing and editing are essential:

  “Everybody needs an editor...you still gotta have somebody look at that, get new eyes on it.” (16:21, Megan)

• “Salt to taste” in recipes that can’t be tasted raw (e.g., with raw eggs/meat) is Maggie’s “red flag.” (18:08)

Cookbook Obsessiveness

• Maggie admits to owning “somewhere around 500” cookbooks, with “sagging shelves” and a heap of vintage food magazines. (20:23)
• Tips on holiday cookbook gift-giving:
  • Tamar Adler’s Feast on Your Life—a gratitude journal for the kitchen—is highly recommended:

    “Truly, truly wonderful. Rather than supposing you know what someone wants to cook, it’s a nice way to support someone in the kitchen.” (21:38)

Stress-Free, Budget-Friendly Entertaining

• Maggie advocates “radical casual entertaining”:

  “Your goal is to make people feel comfortable. The more of a show you put on, the less comfortable they’re going to feel—have your holiday party be a pajama party, just do cookies and cheese...” (25:22)

• Outsource some dishes, batch spirits, avoid being stuck in the kitchen:

  “The point of entertaining at home is inviting people to linger—not being kicked out in 90 minutes like at a restaurant.” (27:13)

• “Tater tot waffles” and bagels for dinner are encouraged as silly, low-stress party food ideas.

• Pro hosting organization tips: fridge whiteboards for prep and leftovers, lists, and visual reminders, especially to avoid forgetting ingredients. (28:58)

Everyday Dinner Planning & Avoiding Burnout

• Maggie’s “Dinner Plan” process—never plans five days ahead, focuses on “muddling through” with what’s at hand:

  “I do this thing where I organize my entire life around that half a cabbage...it doesn’t get any smaller!” (32:45)

• Burnout resonates with many:

  “If you like to cook, the act of cooking can feel good, but the thinking can feel overwhelming. The planning can feel really overwhelming.” (34:00, Maggie)

• Strategies for inspiration: “follow your excitement,” expose yourself to new ingredients, try new cookbooks, and “change your ‘should’ thoughts to ‘I want’ thoughts.” (35:29, Shannon)

Q&A: Using Expensive Black Currant Vinegar (42:52)

• Suggestions:
  • Add to caramel for desserts (43:07)
  • Finish sauces for duck, beets, carrots, or sweet potatoes
  • Drizzle on ice cream or panna cotta (44:36)
  • Plump dried fruit for salads (45:04)
  • Add to cocktails, seltzer, or with ginger for a shrub (45:53)
  • Vinegar chicken (Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat-style), wild rice salad with sausage, braised cabbage, pickled raisins, or finishing touch for roasted sausages and grapes

Batch Cocktails & The “Infinity Bottle”

• Maggie’s house cocktail:

  “It’s sort of a Manhattan, a little bit bitter...we’ve been serving this cocktail since Thanksgiving two years ago...every time you top it up, you could use slightly different ingredients...hundreds of ingredients by now.” (46:28)

• Preserves leftover vermouth and creates a fun family tradition.

Specialty Shopping & Budget Buys

• Shop with lists but allow for impulse and seasonal finds.
• Pro tips: stock up on sale items like organic pasta, yogurt, and specialty ice cream (41:01–42:33).
• Frozen dumplings and pelmeni are weeknight saviors; H Mart is favorite for adventurous, affordable groceries. (39:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “She used [Joy of Cooking] all the time...I think it was fundamental in those early years. By the time we were cooking together, she was confident, you know?”
  —Maggie (13:00)

• “You want to be present with the people you’ve invited over...it’s not the time for fast, hot cooking. You don’t want to smoke up the kitchen. You don’t want to even be in the kitchen.”
  —Maggie (23:39)

• “Your goal is to make people feel comfortable. The more of a show you put on, the less comfortable they’re going to feel.”
  —Maggie (25:22)

• “Sometimes the act of cooking can feel good, but the planning is overwhelming.”
  —Maggie (34:00)

• “Just use your common sense. I don’t think mustard needs to be refrigerated...I think people have been storing mustard without refrigeration and it’s fine.”
  —Megan (37:26; legal note: always check product instructions!)

• “I keep a whiteboard on my fridge — that is my active prep list. I will write down the menu because I will forget something in the fridge if it is not on the fridge itself.”
  —Maggie (28:58)

• “It’s three ingredients—if you don’t count oil and salt!” (joking about recipe minimalism)
  —Megan (50:05)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:38 — Episode welcome and introductions
• 06:29 — Recipe of the week: Cabbage gratin (for Thanksgiving)
• 07:17 — Maggie Hoffman joins; Thanksgiving strategies
• 14:03 — Joy of Cooking as a “silent partner” in kitchens
• 15:05 — Recipe-writing pet peeves
• 17:01 — Importance of editing recipes
• 18:08 — Recipe “red flags”
• 21:38 — Cookbook recommendations for gifts
• 23:39 — Approaches to low-stress, “radically casual” holiday hosting
• 28:58 — Whiteboards, lists, and fridge prep for organization
• 32:42 — Dinner planning, burnout, and inspiration
• 42:52 — Q&A: Creative uses for black currant vinegar
• 46:28 — Batch cocktails and the “infinity bottle” tradition
• 50:05 — Joy Scouts recipe: Grapes and Sausages
• 53:12 — Next week’s topic: Favorite budget-friendly Joy recipes
• 54:26 — What the hosts and guest are cooking this week
• 56:32 — Where to find Maggie and Dinner Plan podcast/newsletter

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Episode Takeaways

• Joy in everyday cooking comes from flexibility, finding inspiration, and building traditions with family and friends (even if it means making gumbo instead of turkey).
• Batch cooking, prepping ahead, and letting go of culinary “performance” can make entertaining truly joyful.
• Recipe writing should be clear, edited, and trustable, with personality—a contrast to the Internet’s unreliable plethora of directions.
• Special ingredients (like expensive vinegar or frozen dumplings) can be used creatively and without fuss—don’t be intimidated!
• Holiday hosting doesn’t have to be performative—comfort and presence matter more than polish.

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Links & Further Reading

• Dinner Plan Podcast & Newsletter by Maggie Hoffman
• Maggie's recommended cookbook: Feast on Your Life by Tamar Adler
• Joy of Cooking recipes mentioned: Cabbage Gratin (p. 225), Grapes and Sausages (p. 512), Wild Rice Salad with Sausage
• Julia Turshen’s Chicken Scarparello, Silver Palate’s Chicken Marbella, Allison Roman’s Vinegar Chicken (NYT Cooking)
• For batch cocktails: Maggie’s The One-Bottle Cocktail and Batch Cocktails

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For questions, stories, or participation, call the Joy of Cooking Hotline: [phone].

Next episode: Budget recipes with the Joy of Cooking crew.

Transcript

[Dirk Marshall]

Sa.

[Shannon Larson]

Welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for a discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of the Joy of Cooking, kitchen victories and misadventures, and what we're cooking and eating right now. We're glad you've joined us at the table today. I'm Shannon Larson, home cook, Joy of Cooking user and fan, and excellent boiled potatoes enthusiast.

[Megan Scott]

I. I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night. And there's nothing a bowl of cheesy pasta won't fix.

[John Becker]

I'm John Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook, and I am coming off of a week of heavy country ham consumption, and I'm a little blissed out. Also a little dehydrated.

[Megan Scott]

Ankles are a little swollen.

[John Becker]

Yeah, a little dehydrated, maybe a little bloated, but, you know, still feeling good.

[Megan Scott]

Still being happy, Very happy inside.

[John Becker]

Definitely. I really. Yeah. We were talking about this a little bit earlier, but I. I'm not really sure why country ham just kind of consumption just kind of stops, you know, like at the Rockies and the Mason Dixon.

[Megan Scott]

I don't.

[John Becker]

I don't get it.

[Megan Scott]

I don't know. I don't know the answer to this. We were kind of like trying to just guess, take educated guesses as to why country ham is not a thing. Like in Oregon.

[Shannon Larson]

What exactly is country. What makes country ham? Country ham.

[Megan Scott]

Salty.

[John Becker]

Salt.

[Megan Scott]

So salty. Extremely salty. It's cur. I mean, it's. It's cure salt. Cured.

[Shannon Larson]

Okay.

[Megan Scott]

And kind of dried. Like, they hang the ham and it sort of dries out a little. So it's not as like, wet as a city ham. This is why I don't like city ham because it's like wet. Country ham is nice and dry and salty.

[John Becker]

I do like, you know, you talk about country ham, which means you have to talk about city ham. And I just like the phrase city ham. Yeah, you know, just like, kind of, you know, sophisticated him.

[Megan Scott]

But we. So we were visiting my family in North Carolina, and that's why we were eating a bunch of country ham. Because if you tell my family you like something and you're visiting them, then it's like all that they can think about and it's all they will feed you. And also we were like, oh, we'd like to get a few packs of country ham before we go back. And my grandparents Gave us every pack of country ham that they had. And then my mom bought some at the grocery store. And then John decided, well, we need to try this other brand that we randomly saw. So now we have so much ham.

[John Becker]

Yeah. Three different. Three different brands. Three different ham masters at work. Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

That is so sweet that your family is just like, oh, you like this here, have all of it.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. It's like when I was a kid or like 12 or 13, for some reason, my grandma decided that I liked frogs. Like, she had. Maybe I had said that I liked frogs. I don't know. But from then on, every Christmas there was a frog, like figurine or a frog mug or a frog whatever. And so I just. I guess I like. I mean, I do. I do like frogs. Yeah, frogs are great.

[Shannon Larson]

That happened with my sister in drafts. And one time she was like, I can't do any more draft stuff, you guys, you gotta stop.

[Megan Scott]

So now we gotta figure out. We're gonna figure out the best way to cook country ham.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, fun.

[John Becker]

I mean, it's all, you know, biscuit slice packs. So, you know, they're. It's not like we have a full country ham to work with where we, you know, like to have to go through the desalting thing. No, that's an ordeal. I can't imagine desalting an entire ham like that.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I think there's. Are there still instructions in joy for doing that desalting there?

[John Becker]

There are. It's like.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

Multi day affair there.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. It's a thing you don't ever want to do. Just buy the slice. Buy it sliced. Another thing we had when we were in North Carolina that I'd never had before. And I don't. I guess it has been a thing for a while, but I just never ate it. It was called dipped chicken. It's like fried chicken that is then dipped in like a western North Carolina barbecue sauce.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, that sounds amazing.

[Megan Scott]

Which is pretty vinegary. So it's not super sweet. It's not like the Kansas City barbecue sauce. So it's really vinegary and like bracing. Spicy and spicy. And then. So it's like dipped in there. I don't know. It was really good. Sounds great. Yeah.

[John Becker]

Yeah. You know, it has an appeal of something you make crispy and then kind of sog out just a tiny bit, but it's still crispy. Still. Still delicious. And good texture.

[Megan Scott]

John likes smothered foods.

[John Becker]

Within reason.

[Megan Scott]

What did you do while we were. Other than take care of our cats, which. Thank you for doing that.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, you know, I love your cats. So anytime I made excellent boiled potatoes.

[Megan Scott]

From Pride and Prejudice, I. I'm gonna shamefully admit that I don't know what you mean by that.

[Shannon Larson]

So there's just this dinner scene and the Pride and Prejudice version that I love, and this one actor, he's like, what? I can't even do it. I'm gonna embarrass myself. He's like, excellent boiled potatoes. I mean, the line delivery is perfect. It's superb. And I was like, what is the deal with these? And they do look really good. And so Marco Pierre White has this recipe for, like, boiled potatoes, and it's just literally potatoes cooked in butter pretty much 100% delicious.

[Megan Scott]

Excellent.

[John Becker]

That sounds on brand for.

[Shannon Larson]

And so I was just like, let's. Let's just watch Pride and Prejudice and make excellent boiled potatoes. And that was really fun.

[Megan Scott]

So I love that you have themed movie nights.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, it's. It's a way to keep it interesting, you know, and my husband's into film, so it.

[Megan Scott]

It works. So we were traveling. We did not make our Joy Scouts recipe of the week, which was cabbage Gratin on page 225, but I have.

[Shannon Larson]

Made that recipe multiple times.

[Megan Scott]

As have we. Yeah, yeah. It's very good. And it's. I think this episode is.

[Dirk Marshall]

It.

[Megan Scott]

Is this episode going to air, like, the day before Thanksgiving or something?

[John Becker]

That was my calculation.

[Megan Scott]

But, you know, yeah, it's a great.

[Shannon Larson]

Thanksgiving recipe and holiday recipe or like. Yeah, yeah. Any holiday cold weather dinner party recipe.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. So if you make the cabbage gratin Recipe on page 225, tag us on Instagram at the Joy of Cooking. Let us know what you think. We hope you enjoy it. We would like to welcome Maggie Hoffman to the table. Maggie has worked in food media for a long time, serving the senior editor and then digital director of Epicurious and the founding drinks editor and then managing editor of Serious Eats. She's also the author of two cocktail books published by Ten Speed Press, the One Bottle Cocktail, and Batch Cocktails. These days, she's the host and executive producer of the Dinner Plan podcast and the voice behind the Dinner Plan newsletter on Substack. She's a cookbook obsessive who has designed her career around making sure there are mountains of cookbooks on her desk at all times. Maggie, welcome to the table.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Thanks for having me, you guys.

[Megan Scott]

What have you been cooking this week that you're excited about?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Well, you know, I decided to kind of scale down my Thanksgiving on the actual day, but still, like, get my Little Thanksgiving moments in just, like, not all at once. Like, I don't need to be cooking 10 dishes for 11 people. So last night I made sweet potatoes, sort of following a recipe on NYT cooking from Eric Kim, who's always great. And it was sweet potatoes topped with, like, a whipped goat cheese. And then you make, like, this quick, like, hot honey. That's just, like, honey cayenne hot sauce, and there's rosemary and toasted nuts. And, like, you just know I can just say that to you, and you just know that's going to taste good. And it did.

[Megan Scott]

That sounds like everything I want. Yeah. In one.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

And he whips the goat cheese with, like, heavy cream, which I did not have. And I literally just, like, thinned it out with a little milk, and it was really good.

[Megan Scott]

Are the sweet potatoes roasted?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I roasted them. I don't remember if he had them or not.

[Megan Scott]

Sounds like the move of, like, front loading your Thanksgiving. So you get to have all the things.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I want to have all the things, but I think my family doesn't really care. Like, they're not, like, they're not that interested in a Brussels sprout. So, like, why make them for them?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, agreed. I feel like we get. We'll get roped into a Thanksgiving, and it's like, here, you're invited to our Thanksgiving. Oh, by the way, could you make the turkey? And it's like, actually, I'd rather not.

[John Becker]

To be fair, that was a supplemental turkey.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, they already had a turkey, but we got given another one that we needed to make anyway. I'm still not over it. So this year, we're gonna make. I'm committed. We're gonna make gumbo. We're gonna make seafood gumbo. I don't want to be anywhere near a turkey. Just saying.

[Shannon Larson]

We're not doing turkey this year either. With my family. We're doing some lamb dish. I don't know.

[Megan Scott]

It's great.

[Shannon Larson]

It's totally different, so. But I also do, like, all of the Thanksgiving sides, so I like the idea of spreading all those sides out throughout the month because it doesn't have to just be like, a Thanksgiving thing.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I mean, there would be years where we would do lots of Thanksgivings for work like that. We were working out a menu or, like, testing drink pairings or all these different things. And so by the time we got to Thanksgiving, I was over it. But now, like, I'm not in the business of doing that. And so I need a couple of Thanksgiving nights.

[Megan Scott]

Does your family have any Thanksgiving non.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Negotiables Pumpkin pie from an old community cookbook that now we just, like, text the picture of the stained page of the cookbook to each other.

[Megan Scott]

Do you remember the cookbook?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I think it was from a temple that my grandparents were members of. I mean, really, really an old one where, you know, the. Where the contributor was named.

[Megan Scott]

Miss.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Is Nicholas Deming, right? Like, does she have a name?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, all those old cookbooks are like that. And the women's names are never in them. Kind of sad. It is sad.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

But we make that pie every year. And I have. You know, I feel like the wisdom now is to cook a pumpkin pie kind of lower and slower. And this one was actually like, quite hot and fast, which does kind of change the texture. Sometimes I take the exact recipe and just like, do it a little lower and slower.

[Megan Scott]

I kind of admire that, though. Like, you're just going all in and you're just gonna get it done and it's fine to do.

[Shannon Larson]

You've got too much going on, I gotta say.

[Megan Scott]

Also, when the pie cracks, it's supposed to. You've overcooked it. But I feel like I can't really. I mean, if. Unless you see it, you don't really know the difference. I think it's fine. So if you're. If your pumpkin pie cracks, it's okay.

[Shannon Larson]

Is that like a. A thing you're not supposed. That you're supposed to have for. Ah, yeah.

[Megan Scott]

It's like a sign.

[Shannon Larson]

Cover it with whipped cream.

[Megan Scott]

Overcooking. Because then it contracts and it's breaks open.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

But yeah, fast cooling. So sometimes it's like, as long as you don't just, like, pull it right out of the oven. If you, like, leave the oven door cracked. And like, people stick a spoon, like a wooden spoon in the oven door and let it cool as the oven cools.

[Megan Scott]

If you have time for that kind of thing. I'm just kidding. No, Maggie, what is your relationship to the joy of cooking?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

You know, I think I love this question. And I have been listening to you guys. I should tell you, I listened to every single episode.

[Megan Scott]

Really?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Oh, my God, every single one.

[Megan Scott]

That's amazing.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

And in part it's because I love to hear everybody's stories. And in part it's because, you know, I'm from Portland and I love the little taste of Portland food life. But, you know, I think a lot of people have a connection to Joy who might not even know it that, like, this is a book that has shaped our country's cooking so much. So my parents Had a copy that was given. Given to them for their wedding. It was there a 1964 edition. It looked like it was in 1964 edition. And it was one of these, like, much joy on your wedding kind of message inside from people I've never heard of. And I didn't have a ton of memories of my mother cooking from it. My mother passed away last year, so I can't ask her, but so I asked my dad about it. I was sort of flipping through it and trying to look at, like, what was stained and stuff. And I said, you know, I don't really remember. Did she use this book? And he's like, what are you talking about? She used it all the time. And so I think it really was sort of a fundamental in those early years and that. And she did. I mean, I think there were. There was a little note in there that was like her doing 1.5 times the pancake recipe. And there was a page that was like, really stained that, you know, it's like, so which recipe was it? Like, I think she might have been making the rouille for, like, bouillabaisse, which is a thing that. That she would make the apple pie pages really splattered. But I literally do not remember her ever making an apple pie. So, you know, I think it was a book that she, like, kind of absorbed and it became part of her cooking. And then by the time we were cooking together, she was confident, you know. And I do think also it reminded me of. I've been reading a bunch of, like, history of cookbook books. And like, often through a lot of different eras, people who cooked would use these big books or would use the books that they sort of collated themselves as really scrapbooks. And that was really what was happening here. Like, she definitely had, like, her little notes and. And it's all in her writing. And so now it's like, really a treasure that it's like her sort of marked up copy and these little clues of what she was cooking early in her marriage. You know, I wasn't there.

[Megan Scott]

I love thinking about Joy of Cooking as kind of a silent partner to a lot of people's dinners. Just, you know, not. It's not a flashy book, and it's maybe one that you don't think of right away when you think of your favorite meals. But it has. It has been behind many, many, many, many dinners in this country and. And beyond. We hear a lot of stories about people who took, like, they would get a copy of Joy for their wedding and Then they ended up living overseas, and they would take it with them, and it would. They were learning how to cook not with their typical ingredients in a different place, but it was still really useful to them. And those stories are just so, so awesome. It makes me feel like I'm part of a really big community of home cooks that are all just figuring it out as we go along. And that's really comforting.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

And I think you feel like, okay, the answer is right there, and I can trust it. Which is not something we can say about just, like, looking stuff up on the Internet these days.

[Megan Scott]

No.

[John Becker]

Actually brings to mind a question I had for you with your editing background. Is there a particular pet peeve? When you see it in a recipe, you basically just stop reading.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Like, I reject that recipe.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I mean, I feel like, you know, I was trained in the style of recipes at Serious Eats and then at Epicurious and Bon Appetit, and it's a little different, and it's changed over time. Course and writing for the Internet, of course, is very different from a cookbook. But I will say, like, on the positive side, when I see a recipe that has just, like, a little bit of voice in it, like, a little bit of personality, that always makes me happy. And when I see. I mean, obviously, like, I don't. I don't want to see just, like, a time. I don't believe anybody's time. And I have, like, a rickety old oven. Like, I want a visual. I want you to, like, really describe what I should be smelling and seeing and that kind of thing. And I will say, you know, I love substack. I think substack is a really cool place for food chat. And at the same time, I have gone to make recipes from people who are professionals and discovered that they, you know, they don't have an editor. It's one person, and that recipe is missing an oven temperature.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, everybody needs an editor. Everybody. I mean, you can be an amazing recipe developer, but you still gotta have somebody look at that, get new eyes on it. Because I do it all the time. Like, I'll write a recipe and look at it 500 times and think, oh, it's. It's perfect. And then someone else will look at it and be like, oh, this ingredient. You missed this ingredient. It's not in the instructions.

[Shannon Larson]

It's like how even an amazing editor needs a. An amazing editor. You know, like, you've just got to have multiple eyes.

[Megan Scott]

What test. You got to have a tester, somebody else testing it, somebody just looking at it. Reading it. Yeah. It's so important to have a team behind recipes, because one person, I mean, nobody, nobody is perfect. You can't expect that.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Exactly.

[Megan Scott]

Hey, Joy of Cooking listeners, did you know the same family that taught America how to cook also taught California how to make world class Chardonnay. The same joy and passion for life that inspired Irma Rombauer to write the Joy of Cooking inspired her great nephew, Kerner Rombauer to establish Rombauer vineyards. Founded in 1980 in the Napa Valley, Rombauer has been producing acclaimed wines from California ever since. While they're famous for their iconic California Chardonnay, Rombauer crafts a diverse collection of delicious wines that bring joy to your table. Ready to taste the legacy? Visit rombauer.com joy or use code joypod, all caps for 15% off your order. That's R O-M-B-A-U-E-R.com joy or code joypod, all caps must be 21 to enjoy my recipe. Red flag is when a recipe says salt to taste, but you can't taste the thing that you're salting. Like, it's raw eggs in there or raw meat or something. It's like, I just need a base. Just give me a baseline and then I'll go from there. But, like, the salt to taste.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Mm.

[Megan Scott]

I don't know.

[Shannon Larson]

Let's taste this raw chicken.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, exactly.

[John Becker]

Where's your sense of adventure.

[Megan Scott]

Maggie?

[Shannon Larson]

Are there other cookbooks that have come out recently that you're really excited about?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Oh, my gosh. I mean, I interview a different cookbook author every week, sometimes two. And then I'm also thinking about what's coming. So I'm, like, thinking about what's coming in, like, April, March. It's going to be a wild spring. You know, I feel like I've been sort of tracking all the cookbooks coming out for years now, and I have never seen a single spring like this. So get ready for that. But in terms of, like, what's happening right now, I'm really into the King Cookbook, which is from Claire DeBoer and Jess Shadbull, and it's the chefs and owners of King restaurant in Manhattan. And it is very particular. It is not for you. If you are looking for just, like, things you can totally find at your local grocery store. But if you are looking for, like, a How do the, like, very particular decisions of chefs shape some food? This is one of those books. It's a little bit like the Zuni book in that it's like really? Like, what is the most. The tiniest detail that could make a difference, and you get to see all the weird things that they do. They do things I would not have thought of. And they have very particular, like, sourcing. And it's just like a peek inside someone's brain. Oh, that sounds fun.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. I love restaurant cookbooks because they do give you just a look into. Into the kitchen, like, what's going on in there. And chefs figure out the. It's either like, the most efficient way to do a thing, or it's something just beyond, like, anything you would have ever thought of. And then sometimes. I mean, sometimes it's not something you can really take away, but a lot of times it is.

[John Becker]

Yeah, right. Like something that might be extremely efficient in a restaurant kitchen setting, but maybe not so at the home kitchen.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. But I will definitely. We'll definitely get that cookbook. We are also cookbook collectors. How many cookbooks do you think you have, Maggie?

[Shannon Larson]

It's like a grimace.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I will say my shelves are, like, at risk. Like, it might be a danger. Somewhere around 500, and the shelves are sagging. There was also a period where I was collecting vintage food magazines, which I have not. I have stopped adding more. I have not gotten rid of any of them. And they're so fun as far as.

[John Becker]

Density on the shelf goes. Like, for, you know, shelf width. That seems like a real problem. Like, even worse than cookbooks.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Well, and you can stack them kind of this way and then.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. And get away with a little bit more.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

A friend of ours just gave us his collection of. Do you remember the Martha Stewart Everyday Food magazine? A big stack of those, which was so exciting because it's been out of print for a long time. And I remember my mom used to cook a lot from those, so now I have a whole collection of those. And I don't know, I just. They're. They're delightful.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

They really are. I got a handful of those, too. And for a while, you know, I would look for, like, birth year magazines. And so that's another project.

[Megan Scott]

What are the cookbooks that you are recommending for, like, the holidays this year for people who are looking for gifts?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I mean, there's so many cool ones, and I kind of feel like that's the whole thing I do. Right. Like, every week, I'm sort of like, this is what this book is and who this person is and who they're for. You know, not every cookbook is for everyone. I will say the one that has really touched me the Most is not actually a cookbook. Tamar Adler's new book is just a beautiful, beautiful piece of writing and I think would make a really lovely gift. And it's basically her gratitude journal. She made the decision to notice something that brought her joy every day in the kitchen, and she kind of fights it at times, and. And she's, you know, not starting from a place of, you know, much light, and every single day, it's 365 entries every single day. She eventually gets to something, you know, and sometimes it's really good toast, you know, but it's truly, truly wonderful. And I think, you know, rather than sort of supposing that, you know what someone else is going to want to cook, this is a really nice way to sort of like, support someone in the kitchen other than a cookbook.

[Megan Scott]

Can you remind me what the title of that book is?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Feast on your life.

[Megan Scott]

We're going to have Tim our on the podcast in, I want to say, February or early March, I can't remember. Seems far away, but we're really looking forward to that. Her books have been such a huge influence in my cooking life, and it just, yeah, it feels unreal to now be able to have her on our very own podcast. So we're getting around to the holiday season. Lots of entertaining, lots of hosting. What are your strategies for easing stress and amping up the joy factor while you're hosting during the holidays?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I love to host. I'm, like, so excited. And I think you want to be present with the people that you've invited over. And so the really important thing is the choice of what you're going to make. And you can set yourself up for a really relaxed time. If, you know you can make something braised the day before, you could make it the weekend before and throw it in the freezer. And that can be, like, a really beautiful. You know, there's so many different things you can do that are more in that category of something that can freeze. And I think that really is the move. It's not the time for fast, hot cooking. You don't want to smoke up the kitchen. You don't want to even be in the kitchen. You know, I think the most important thing, you know, when I wrote this batch cocktails book, in some ways, it was the early thinking of a lot of my thinking about entertaining, which was the whole point was don't be, like, fiddling with the jigger. You don't know how to use a jigger. Like, don't be fiddling, don't be tipping Things over. Don't be putting on a show. Like, when someone comes in the door, focus on them. Right. So I think it's the same in the kitchen. It's like, not the time to be, like, searing something and, you know, all of that. So I usually try to make a menu, like, pretty far in advance and often outsource something. Like, I have a great fish market that does really beautiful posts. Poached shrimp. Like, it is fine for them to do that. I don't need to do that.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, you don't need to prove all of your cooking skills to your guests. They just want you to be present with them.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

You know, I read this thing someone on Substack wrote about, like, radical casual entertaining. And the idea of sort of your goal is to make people feel comfortable. The more of a show you put on, the less comfortable they're going to feel. And so, you know, have your. Have your holiday party be a pajama party. Like, have your just do cookies and cheese. Like, whatever it is that will actually make people feel comfortable is also how you're going to set up a culture of inviting each other over. I think, especially if you're, like, known as, like, the good cook, which I am not. My friends are like the serious cooks. Even though I am a professional in the food world, the people I hang out with are more serious cooks. They kick me out of the kitchen. But if you are known as someone who's, like, really into food, that's a way to not get invited. Right. To a dinner party. Right. Like, people are nervous, but if you make people feel just so comfortable, you invite people over for breakfast, for dinner. You know, you invite people over for. We have. In New York, we have Russ and Daughters, which is this, like, incredible appetizing store. Maybe you've seen that book. It's pretty cool. But, you know, they sell seafood, like, the kinds of things you would put on a bagel. So like, you know, nova, the like smoked salmon and trout roe and all different things. And, you know, you can invite people over for bagels for dinner. We had a meal where we did tater tot waffles.

[Megan Scott]

Amazing.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

The way they used to do. And at the Riddler in San Francisco was this, like, champagne bar. And they would make these tater tot waffles. And it's literally just like smushing tater tots in a waffle iron until it becomes sort of like a latke ish thing. But it's silly.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, my God. It sounds delicious, though.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

And you get this whole Spread of things you've bought. And it's fun. I mean, I think that's. I think we have to, like, we're not. You're not a restaurant. The point of doing home entertaining at home is inviting people to linger and not being kicked out in 90 minutes. Right. So, like, it has to just be about people and not about your performance.

[John Becker]

It's very refreshing to hear you talk about entertaining in such a low key way after, like, I feel like we've gone through a little bit of a cycle with Martha Stewart and like, the. What is it the 20th anniversary of entertaining or is it 30?

[Megan Scott]

It might be. I think it's even more than I.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Think it was the 80s.

[Megan Scott]

Sorry. Yeah, yeah, I was actually just thinking about Martha Stewart because I saw, I just saw a video on her, you know, Instagram or something that was from. I think it must have been the 90s. But she's setting a table centerpiece and it's like, and here's the cheese and here's the fruit cornucopia and here's the giant ham, the whole ham that we're going to put on this table. And it was just kind of like, it's like those home decorating shows where they just don't stop. And you're like, please stop, please stop. Please stop now. You can stop now. I mean, love Martha, but like, there's.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

A thing in that book where they pipe something into individual pea pods. Oh, my God, there's so much like stuffing of vegetables.

[Shannon Larson]

It's just like a lot of work.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, ain't nobody got time for that. Are you a list spreadsheet flowchart person when you're entertaining or do you like, are you more of an organized chaos person?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I keep a whiteboard on my fridge, so that is my, like, active prep list. So I will write down the menu because I will forget something in the fridge if it is not on the fridge itself. And but for planning, it's like Notes, Notes app in the phone.

[Shannon Larson]

My whiteboard on my fridge has changed my life. Like, it makes everything so much easier. And if I get stressed out, like, what am I doing here? What am I doing here? Why did I prep this thing? I can just like, look there and I'm like, oh, yeah, this is for this.

[Megan Scott]

Or use this. Please use this thing first. This thing is about to go bad.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I've started doing that.

[Shannon Larson]

I'm like, we have a lot of peppers right now. We need to use all of these peppers. So it's like the number one thing on our use part of the list.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Highly recommend the whiteboard. I also noticed that you wrote something on our whiteboard while we were gone.

[Shannon Larson]

I like to leave little notes for you guys.

[John Becker]

You really sabotaged our organization.

[Shannon Larson]

You guys need the Costco shrimp chips?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, we're out of those. Yeah, we use it. We use our whiteboard as well, as it has various functions. Usually it's just where we put our grocery list. Other times, I'll be in the kitchen and have what I think is a really good idea, but I can't, like, leave the kitchen to write it down somewhere. So I'll just jot down something really random on the whiteboard so I don't.

[John Becker]

And then sometimes I will ask about it, and you will have trouble really figuring out what you.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that's the problem. But that's. That's on me, you know? We're big fans of Rombauer Vineyards. They're sponsoring today's episode, actually. But honestly, their wines are fantastic, with so many joy of cooking dishes. My current favorite is their Sauvignon Blanc with our Khao Soi gai recipe. That bright, crisp wine cuts right through the richness of the curry. It's perfect.

[John Becker]

Oh, absolutely. Being Oregonians, we take our pinots seriously. We're excited about their new Pinot Noir, which pairs beautifully with our chicken jambalaya. The wine has enough body to stand up to all those bold crayole flavors.

[Megan Scott]

If you want to try these pairings yourself, head to rombauer.com joy or use code joypod all caps for 15 off. That's R O-M-B-A-U-E-R.com joy or code joypod all caps.

[Dirk Marshall]

Must be 21 to enjoy.

[Megan Scott]

Not talking about entertaining. What is your process for planning and making dinner on the daily?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Well, you know, I've been doing this thing on substack where I actually tell people what I'm making that day, which has actually created a little pressure in my life. But I do think it is helpful for people to just sort of have. You know, I publish a recipe every week in the newsletter. It's from a cookbook. These things are, you know, increasingly formal, but I think for a lot of cooks, you might just need, like, a starting point. You might just need, like, that spark. And so every day when I, like, figure out what I'm making for dinner, I just post it on the. That, like, feed on substack, which is sort of like a Twitter dupe. But, you know, I think it ebbs and flows sometimes it feels really helpful to have a structure. And it can feel like, okay, I know what I'm doing. I have a plan for this produce, or I have a plan. You know, I know I'm going to remind myself that I'm taking this out of the freezer or whatever that is, and that structure can feel supportive. And then other times I can't. And I think five days, I think, is too much for me to plan. I need, like, a moment to catch up. There's always a moment where the fridge is too full and I need to, like, recalibrate, though. I also find that I do a thing where I'm like, there is three quarters of a cabbage. There's half a cabbage. And then I'll, like, organize my entire life around that half a cabbage. And, like, you know, my husband's just like, it doesn't get any smaller.

[John Becker]

It's a big cabbage.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

It just seems to grow. So then, you know, I'll plan a whole thing, and I have to get more groceries to try to use up the cabbage. And then there's more other stuff. So that can be a challenge. But, you know, it's really a question that I have thought about a lot, and sort of the germs of the dinner plan were. I wrote about cooking burnout on Epicurious, and it's, like, one of two stories from my entire career that people reach out to me about. And I think it's a thing that really resonates that sometimes it's not, like, the actual cooking. If you like to cook, the act of cooking can feel good, but the thinking can feel really overwhelming, and the planning can feel really overwhelming. And so in many ways, that's the big question of the dinner plan. And. But, you know, I think when you're. When you're feeling overwhelmed and uninspired, sometimes something can just, like, get you excited, and you have to, like, follow that excitement. And there's a part of this whole thing that's really, like, a creative project. Like, I find myself, like, thinking about the artist's way a lot and sort of, how do you get yourself to a place where you're, like, open to inspiration, you know? And sometimes you just have to, like, like, cook that cabbage.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Sometimes you have to just kind of muddle your way through something to get to the other side. Because I feel like whenever I'm having a cooking burnout moment, there's not really a fix for it. You just have to sort of be burnout for a while, and then eventually you won't be burnt out anymore. But yeah, it's getting through that feels not so great. Yeah.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

And, you know, I had a great conversation with Mira Sota about this and her book Dinner is another where that, like, if you don't have that, that would make such a great gift. But you know, she talked about. So when everything is overwhelming or even just you've totally just like turned things have turned off, you've stopped being able to move forward. She said she really just had to sort of like, listen to like anything that felt appealing. Like, tune into sort of an animal craving for anything. And like, how do you get there? Well, like, maybe you can. If you can go out to eat, great. If you can go to a friend's, great. If you can walk in a market, go to a fish market that's really colorful. Or if you can go to, you know, a spice shop that's really colorful. Like, those kinds of things can spark something for me. I have to, like, sort of do a little ritual where I, like, have a cup of tea and like, act all relaxed and sit on the couch and open a book. And then it's like, oh, I'm just doing this for fun. Right. It's not that I need a dinner idea for when my in laws arrive tomorrow. Right. Like, you can't do it from a place of panic.

[Shannon Larson]

That's funny. I was just. This is so random, but I was just seeing this thing on Instagram about this woman talking about her therapist telling her to change her should thoughts to I want thoughts. So it's like, oh, I should, you know, vacuum the floors. And instead it's being like, I want to vacuum the floors because it's going to make me feel more relaxed when I sit down later in my living room or whatever it is. I've been thinking about that a lot, and it feels that way for me with cooking because sometimes I'm like, oh, I should use that cabbage. But it's like, but I want that recipe in the joy. So I should. I want to make that recipe kind of a thing. I don't know. I'm gonna try.

[Megan Scott]

I'll.

[Shannon Larson]

I'll report back.

[Megan Scott]

Mind games.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, I'm gonna play mind games with myself.

[Megan Scott]

If I were to open your fridge right now, Maggie, what's the most interesting thing I would find in there?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I mean, I have so many condiments in my fridge. It's like, really? I mean, this is where this gets ridiculous. But, you know, when I was testing recipes for the cookbook, I got a little extra, like, dorm fridge. And that usually mostly has drinks. But it's like now about like half drinks and half condiments. And, you know, I hold on to like 2 tablespoons of. I had this really good. It was called Chili nut Crunch. It's a Thai chili crisp that comes in both like a spicy and not spicy. That's really awesome. And I just. I would like 2 tablespoons left in there. And do you keep that in your fridge forever? I don't know.

[Megan Scott]

I would. Yes.

[Dirk Marshall]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

We had the pleasure of having. Having some of that sent to us. That was. It's fantastic. So that's really good.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Good. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. We also have the. We should really get a dorm fridge or something for. For the con. I mean, we just have so many. Yeah. We can't say no. And then everything needs to be refriger. See, I'm. I'm also on team. Maybe it doesn't need to be refrigerated. Like, use your common sense. I don't think mustard needs to be refrigerated. I think it's fine. I think people have been storing mustard.

[John Becker]

We're gonna have to run this by legal.

[Shannon Larson]

I know our producer is like.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

But mustard is fine.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, mustard's fine.

[John Becker]

It's fine.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

How do you grocery shop?

[Megan Scott]

Are you a list maker or do you, like, see what's on sale and then kind of go that way or a little bit of both.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I think I'm more of a list maker. And I have sort of just like automatic, like, kid food that just had. They have to be apples. Like, you just have to keep. Keep doing. And I usually work a couple days at a time. I try to cook something on Sunday that's going to be good for multiple days so that Monday is easier. So maybe I'm shopping for, like, you know, a big cook on Sunday that's going to be something cozy that we eat for two days and then one other meal, and that's kind of it. And I'm really lucky. We have a farmer's market Saturday and Sunday, and there's another one that's on Wednesday. So in the season, you know, the season is. Is shorter here, but, you know, in those seasons I can pretty much do that.

[Megan Scott]

That was kind of going to be. My next question is, do you get everything from one store or you hop around?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I get everything from so many stores and it's like. I mean, I think it's being picky and. But it'll be that thing of you need. That's, you know, whatever one thing, and you can only get it from that Store, and.

[Megan Scott]

Well, yeah, you. You get to know where all the specific things you love are, and then you kind of have to just hop around.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Yeah. And there are a number of, you know, really great stores that are kind of an adventure to go to. And then I'll, like, buy. You know, I got all this stuff from H Mart, and then it was.

[Megan Scott]

Like, well, am I.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Am I cooking this. This for. For weeks, or are we freezing some, or do we add some other, you know, know that stuff?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, H Mart is a favorite. I feel like we always really stock up when we are in there.

[Shannon Larson]

I can't help myself when I'm in there.

[Megan Scott]

I know, I know.

[Shannon Larson]

Like, I need this vinegar. Why not?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I got these really good, like, huge frozen dumplings that were, like, jumbo, and they had little, like, sweet potato noodles in them and kimchi. And I think I saw them recommended on the Kitchen, maybe by Elise Whitney, and they are so good. So I always try to have, like, maybe two bags of dumplings in the freezer, and that's sort of the backup meal. Like, you can always do, like, whatever the vegetable is, plus that, plus black vinegar. And that's a night.

[Megan Scott]

Bless dumplings. Bless frozen dumplings.

[Shannon Larson]

We have, like, four bags in our freezer right now.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[John Becker]

Two packs of dumplings and. Well, yeah, then we have pelmeni, don't we?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, we have. We always have pelmeni and some kind of, like, usually Korean dumpling. And. Yeah, they're just such. We always make the. In the summer, we've been making Hetty McKinnon's dumpling salad. The dumpling tomato salad. It's so. And you can do that with. I mean, now we've. We've started. What was the last thing we did with. It wasn't tomato. We were just getting into fall, and then we decided to shift it a little bit, but it kind of works with everything.

[John Becker]

Yeah, we have done it with roasted root vegetables and stuff like that.

[Dirk Marshall]

That.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's really good.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

That makes me wonder if you could do persimmon. Oh, yeah.

[Megan Scott]

I feel like persimmon or, like, roasted sweet potato chunks seem like they would be really good. Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Just go. Go wild with that recipe. My last shopping question for you is, what do you buy when it's on sale that you normally wouldn't buy?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Organic pasta. I'm now in a.

[Megan Scott]

Like.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I mean, I. I would say it's not that I don't usually buy it. I try to not buy too much. Like, I'm. I think I sort of tend toward stock overstocking. And thinking, like, I need like six cans of tomatoes and, and six boxes of pasta. And like, I really, I really don't. I have access to stores, but I do, I have. I hadn't thought before about the idea of pasta being like Teflon rollers, vers, like bronze. Like, I thought sort of the choice of like bronze cut pasta being just sort of like, oh, it's about the aesthetic. Oh, it's about the like scratchy surface that's going to pick up sauce better or whatever. Like that sounds good, but it didn't feel urgent to me until I was told that the alternative to bronze rolled is Teflon rolled, which I'm not that interested in.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that's a good one. I was just thinking about. I always swing by the yogurt case because there is a brand of yogurt elenos. Oh, that it is expensive, but it is so good and it's often on sale. And so I'll swing by there and see what's happening and usually pick up some elenos.

[John Becker]

Yeah, the, the standard price of that yogurt is beyond like what most people that go to our grocery store.

[Megan Scott]

It is the best yogurt. But yeah, I mean, so it's on sale.

[John Becker]

It's hard to justify that. It goes on sale frequently. Yeah, but the cheese counter, Obviously the cheese counter.

[Megan Scott]

And then also the Van Leeuwen ice cream, when that's on sale. That's happening. Very much so. Good. So each week we answer a caller question. And this week we are going to talk about a fancy specialty vinegar. Dirk, can you please play or read the question?

[Dirk Marshall]

I just bought a stupid expensive bottle of black currant vinegar. I haven't tried it, but I love black currant. I plan to use it on the occasional green salad or in a seltzer as a shrub. Can you think of other ways to deploy it? From Maggie in pdx.

[Megan Scott]

Hi, Maggie. So my first thought was this is pretty niche, but I think you can use this as just an example. So when I was working at a restaurant in pastry one time, I did this dessert that was like these individual tart tatins with. But they were plum tarte tatins. So like a little half of a plum, half a, and then a square, a little circle of puff pastry. But I had to make the caramel for the bottom. And so I, I wanted to add something that would just add like a zing because it was so, so sweet. And I ended up using a Ban Yules vinegar, which is like a wine vinegar. Dark wine vinegar. And I think that a black currant vinegar would be really good in a caramel. So not just tarte tatin, but if you're making like a dark caramel, maybe adding just a little bit, maybe like a tablespoon of the vinegar at the very end, which will really lift the flavor and it'll. I think it'll be a nice counterpoint to all the sweetness.

[John Becker]

Yeah. Or, you know, even add like a tiny bit more and you have some. Something more along the lines of like a gastrique or agridolce sweet sour sauce that you could maybe serve with, you know, some pan syru duck breast or some. Some other rich meat.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Or like a reduct. So like a balsamic reduction. But use. Use the vinegar instead.

[John Becker]

Well, you know, they did say it was stupid expensive, so.

[Megan Scott]

Well, I mean, you don't have to.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Make a huge batch of it. I feel like just a little bit.

[Megan Scott]

With some maple syrup or with sugar and make a sticky reduction for like. I think it would be really good with roasted carrots or sweet potatoes or beets.

[Shannon Larson]

I have beets written down. That's what sounded good to me. I also had duck written down. I also think just a little bit on some good vanilla ice cream would be delicious. This, because I like that. That vinegary flavor with the. With the sugar. That'd be really good and easy. Yeah, you just pour it on there.

[Megan Scott]

Exactly.

[John Becker]

And since. Since Thanksgiving, we think is tomorrow, cranberry sauce seems like it would be a good addition to cranberry sauce.

[Megan Scott]

What about you, Maggie? What do you think?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I mean, I was thinking along similar lines of like, agriculture, but, you know, there's a lot of recipes where they'll have you, like, plump a dried fruit like a raisin or a currant for, you know, a salad or some kind of garnishing something. And I think that could be really good because it would sort of bring in more flavor to those. And then I was also thinking, like, yeah, would you put it on a panna cotta? It might need a little more sugar, but it'll have that. The brightness that you want. And then, I mean, definitely cocktails. You know, any recipe that calls for a shrub could be really good with something gingery, like, you know, whether it's like seltzer, ginger juice and that, and then sweetened to taste or like a sweetened ginger beer kind of situation.

[Megan Scott]

Yum.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, yeah, the ginger makes total sense in my head. That sounds great.

[John Becker]

That actually brings up a question I wanted to ask just about batch cocktails and Thanksgiving. Do you have any, like, favorite thing that you like to serve for, you know, just any winter festivity, like, dinner type situation?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Yes. So we've actually been serving this same thing. We have an infinity bottle, which is a cocktail that is batched that every time you serve it, you can. You keep some of it and top it up. So think of like a sherry solera or something like that.

[Megan Scott]

So.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

So ours is like sort of a Manhattan, a little bit bitter. So sort of somewhere between a boulevardier in Manhattan and a boulevardier and a Manhattan. And every time you top it up, you could use slightly different ingredients. So, you know, maybe one of them is apple brandy and one of them is whiskey. And I did some variations that had Irish whiskey and a little bit of chartreuse in them that got. So basically we have been serving this cocktail since Thanksgiving two years ago.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, wow.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

It's in like a whiskey bottle. Just like a glass, 750 milliliter whiskey bottle in our fridge. It's a way of preserving the vermouth. So when you have like a quarter of a bottle of vermouth, it's not going to last very long. But when it's mixed in with the higher proof stuff and we don't dilute it because we want to age it and keep it for a really long time. And it does get like, you know, the, the. The vermouth does oxidize a little bit, but kind of in a cool way. And so this probably has hundreds of ingredients in it by now because we've been doing this topping. It's pouring half of it off and topping in it over and over for years now. Especially fun. And I've also done it as a gift for my brother and for my dad because it is sort of like, you know, you can't buy that.

[Megan Scott]

That's such a fun tradition. I love that and how it's different every time.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I always taste it first before I.

[Megan Scott]

Serve it, like you do.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Sometimes you gotta adjust a little bit, but yeah, it's so fun.

[Megan Scott]

I had a couple other ideas for the vinegar. There is a recipe for vinegar chicken. There's one in salt fat, acid heat. And then there's one that Allison Roman did for New York Times Cooking. But I mean, that uses. I think it calls for like a half cup of vinegar. So you might, might, may or may not want to use all, all of that.

[John Becker]

I mean, you could always, you know, use a more neutral wine vinegar to just kind of, you know, bulk it out a little.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I do like the idea. I Feel like it's a balance with this vinegar because you want to taste it, but you don't want it to overpower. And it is expensive, stupid expensive. So you don't want to use the whole thing. So I think that sounded really nice. And then there's a. So there's a wild. Right. Rice salad with sausage in Joy of Cooking that has not a ton of vinegar in it. And I think that would be really good.

[John Becker]

Yeah, that would care with the black currant.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Or like a braised cab red cabbage. Maybe like you'll just add a little bit of vinegar at the end. That could be really good. I was also thinking about pickled raisins, which I don't know if you've ever had. Have you ever had pickled raisins?

[Shannon Larson]

No, I don't think I have have.

[Megan Scott]

It's really simple. They're just like, you just make like a kind of sweet sour brine and then with some spices and pour it over your. You know, I use golden raisins, but whatever you want. I would use like half of the. I wouldn't use all of the blackcurrant vinegar. I would use like half and half with white wine vinegar or something. And the only thing I would say is it's probably not shelf stable because we don't know know what the acid of that vinegar is. It might not be as high as you need for canning, but just like a quick pickle of pickled raisins, which are great on all kinds of holiday centric recipes, like cabbage, for instance. That's all I can think about now is cabbage.

[Shannon Larson]

And it brightens the meal up, which sometimes, you know, holiday meals can feel a little heavy and you want that like, acidity.

[Megan Scott]

So, yeah, they're good on salads. Yeah.

[John Becker]

We were also thinking about, like using it as a finishing vinegar, finishing touch to the sausage and grapes recipe that's in the book.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah. And that, that brings us to our Joy Scouts recipe for this week, which is the grapes and sausages on page 512. It's a really simple recipe. It has three ingredients, if you don't count. I think it's the oil. No, it's salt. Salt, which I feel like editors like to do those tricky things. Just. It's a three ingredient recipe, but it also has oil and salt. But it's really simple. You just brown the sausages, you lay them on top of some grapes and rosemary on a baking dish and then you roast them and then finish with just like a dash of balsamic vinegar. But you could certainly use the black currant vinegar. That would be great. Or like red wine vinegar. It's a really nice kind of fall coated rose recipe to me. I don't know why I think I was, I was like, it's so seasonal. And John was like, what are you talking about?

[John Becker]

Yeah, I don't know. I, I think grape season is, I don't know.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Oh, but on the east coast, grape season is like all we got. So there's a whole row of like beautiful, the Mars grapes and like different seedless but sort of concordish grapes. So that would probably be cool with that sausage.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. So you can find a good grape to use with that, that recipe and whatever your favorite sausages are. I think it's written for Italian sausage, but I don't see why, like you couldn't use other sausages. Whatever you're in the mood for.

[John Becker]

I mean, I think it is like kind of an Umbrian dish and, but, but yeah, no. Go wild.

[Shannon Larson]

Go wild sausage.

[John Becker]

We won't stop you.

[Dirk Marshall]

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[Megan Scott]

If you have a cooking question or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858 leave us a message or send us a text. We would love to hear from you, Dirk. Can you please play or read our next week's caller question?

[Dirk Marshall]

I love your show. Currently found it while furloughed. Which brings my question. When money is tight, which Joy of Cooking recipe do you recommend?

[Megan Scott]

Awesome. We will talk about our favorite budget friendly Joy of Cooking recipes next week. All right, what is everybody cooking this week? Week?

[Shannon Larson]

I'm definitely making the Joy Scout recipe because I roasted a chicken to go with my excellent boiled potatoes, and we got a bag of grapes because then I was like, well, I want chicken salad through the week, but we're not going to use the whole bag of grapes for our chicken salad. So we have most of a bag of grapes sitting in our fridge.

[Megan Scott]

So you have one third of the ingredients for that recipe. Like you said it.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

And I was like, oh, sweet.

[Shannon Larson]

We can get rid of those grapes. It's also like, like, persimmon season. And so I'm just collecting persimmons like crazy. I like to. When they're close to getting ripe, I put them in the freezer, and then I bring them out, and then they get all, like, mushy. And I like to mix it in with my cottage cheese in the morning.

[Megan Scott]

And it's.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Our producer just gave me, like, it's so good.

[Shannon Larson]

It's the best fruit to mix with cottage cheese, I swear.

[Megan Scott]

Do you have a persimmon tree?

[Shannon Larson]

No, I wish I did. Yeah. But no, I just go to the, like, 99 ranch and stock up.

[Megan Scott]

So what about you, Maggie?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

I have family in town this weekend, so I've actually planned on Friday night. I am making Julia Tershin's chicken scarparello, which is, like, kind of a New Jersey favorite. It's like a chicken and sausage thing. And her recipe is so smart. It has those, like, hot cherry peppers, like, sliced, and then you use the liquid from the jar. So that's fun. It's, like, really, like, spicy and tangy. And then I'm gonna do lamb braise on ricotta cavatelli for Saturday night.

[Megan Scott]

Lovely. That sounds amazing. I want to come to your house.

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Anytime you come east.

[Shannon Larson]

What about you two?

[Megan Scott]

So I've never made the recipe for Chicken Marbella, which is like, I don't know. It's a silver palette recipe that's really famous, and it's on the New York Times. And it. I think other people have done. Ina Garten has a ver. It.

[John Becker]

Well, no, I've looked at this recipe. Like, I don't know how many Times, and I was like, oh, yeah, that's. That's interesting. And it always gets deferred. I feel like this has been a long time coming.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. But I. I finally just got the craving for it because I really love prunes. It has prunes in it, and they get kind of stewed in there with, like, green olives and capers and lots of olive oil and vinegar. So it sounds just very, like, briny and sweet and sour.

[John Becker]

So, like, the original silver palette recipes calls for, like, two chickens and, like.

[Megan Scott]

It'S a very large recipe.

[John Becker]

Half a cup of capers.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot of chicken. It's a lot of everything. We're not making that much of it. But I was looking at the New York Times recipe, and the head note in on the New York Times recipe calls it boomer cuisine, which I was like, I feel like that's going a bit far. But I guess it was from the 80s. I don't know. But I don't think that's any re. I think that's fine. And it sounds delicious to me, but I guess at one time, it was kind of exotic. The combination of ingredients was really exotic. So I'm very excited to try that recipe because people love it, and I think it's gotta be pretty good. So we'll report back about that next week. All right, Maggie, before we wrap, where can listeners follow you?

[Maggie John Kaufman]

Well, wherever you like to listen to podcast. The dinner plan podcast comes out just about every week and sometimes twice a week. If there's a lot of cookbooks, I talk to a new cookbook author every week, week. And then I send a newsletter on Substack that has a recipe from their book. So you get, like, a little peek, but you can decide, you know, if that book is a fit for you. And also because people were telling me that they were taking notes on the show, it also has, like, all of the links to the things they mentioned. Like, they always talk about their favorite cookbooks and all those things, and we give away one of their books every week. So the dinner plan on Substack and then on Instagram, I'm just MaggieJohn Kaufman.

[Shannon Larson]

Awesome.

[Megan Scott]

And we'll link to all of that in our show notes. Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review. Follow [e-mail] and on Instagram, the Joy of Cooking. Stay tuned for next week where we'll talk about budget recipes. And don't forget to make this week's recipe grapes and sausages on page 512. Call in with questions, host history or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

[Shannon Larson]

And we could not do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation Production House. Thank you to Dave Dresky, our production coordinator, Hayley Bowers, our audio engineer and Dirk Marshall, our producer.

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