Naomi Tomky: A Casual Culinary Chat About Whole Grains

Summary

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The Joy of Cooking Podcast

Episode: Naomi Tomky: A Casual Culinary Chat About Whole Grains
Date: January 21, 2026
Hosts: Megan Scott, Jon Becker, Shannon Larson
Guest: Naomi Tomky

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Episode Overview

This lively installment explores whole grains and the Pacific Northwest food scene through a delightfully candid conversation with award-winning food and travel writer Naomi Tomky. Along with touching on what makes Seattle’s dining culture unique and discussing kitchen mishaps, the co-hosts and Naomi provide practical grain-cooking tips, swap home cooking stories, and relate memorable food travel adventures. Expect thoughtful yet informal reflections, playful anecdotes, and realistic advice for home cooks interested in incorporating whole grains into easy lunches.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Festive Home Cooking Highlights & Holiday Traditions

[02:28 – 10:28]

• The hosts recap recent holiday kitchen escapades, ranging from failed club sandwiches to duck dinners and impromptu party snacks.
• Megan Scott: laments, “I ate the worst club sandwich of my entire life over the holiday break, which was very upset. I was amazed at how upset I was about it. Like, it kind of ruined my day.” ([04:46])
• Naomi Tomky: shares her love for “hot pot season” at home, describing it as “the coziest thing” ([10:59]), and admits to buying her seasoning rather than fussing with homemade blends.
• Playful banter about the nostalgia and absurd underuse of popcorn and butter cookie tins, party mix permutations, and leftover holiday snack inventions.

2. Special Guest: Naomi Tomky Joins the Table

[10:32 – 35:44]

• Naomi’s Cooking Right Now:

  • Reveals that winter is “hot pot season” in her house, and extols the freezer-stash approach for fast meals with “whatever vegetables and scraps” on hand ([10:59]).
  • Hot pot favorites include rare finds like Celtis (stem lettuce): “It’s like, very weirdly complex, savory… like this concentrated lettuce flavor.” ([13:25])

• Joy of Cooking Relationship:

  • Did not grow up in a cooking household but learned from a thrifted 1970s Joy of Cooking after college: “That room in the house where… [food is made]” ([15:16]).
  • Nostalgic remembrance of attending a book event on the cusp of the COVID-19 pandemic ([15:40]).

• Food Writing Adventures:

  • Editor at Seattle Met, deeper explorations into Seattle’s restaurant scene, Balkans food, and Taiwan’s hot pot culture: “Vacation destination for me… dinner is just, like, hot pot made from all the ingredients they grow around the hotel.” ([17:04])

• Great Food Destinations:

  • Taiwan (“food heaven”), Albania (“a recipe for extremely good food”), Kosovo’s fresh dairy.
  • Memorable fresh, unpasteurized milk: “I grew up in a city. I don’t think I have ever before in my life had milk from a cow milked that morning. And I don’t even drink milk. I’m a normal adult.” ([19:25])
  • Humorous recounting of baby cows licking hands as trip highlights ([21:08]).

• Least Favorite Culinary Travels:

  • “I always feel bad when I say this. I’m sorry. Uruguay.” ([21:31])
  • Lacked variety, mostly processed meats, but high praise for provoletta (grilled cheese) ([23:20]).

3. Pacific Northwest Seafood, Food Allergies & Lingcod Advocacy

[26:00 – 32:23]

• Salmon Allergy Revelation:
  • Naomi became allergic to salmon after writing the Pacific Northwest Seafood Cookbook—a “brutally ironic” twist ([26:14]).
• PNW Seafood Standouts:
  • Oysters (“I think our oysters are the best” — controversial, she admits [28:16]),
  • Lingcod as a versatile, forgiving, sustainable fish: “Justice for lingcod” ([30:26]).
  • Halibut: Delicious but “eye-wateringly expensive” and overrated for the stress and price ([30:48]).
• Fun Fish Facts:
  • Lingcod’s blue flesh is a mystery—possibly due to diet ([29:40]).
• Bay Shrimp Usage:
  • Tiny, cooked, “kind of just a texture thing… you want to throw them into… anything where you’re not re cooking them” ([33:28]).
• Practical Seafood Questions:
  • Group shares humorous confusion (“shrimps is bugs” graffiti shoutout, [33:11]), and wonders aloud about mechanical shelling processes.

4. Seattle’s Characteristic Foods & Restaurant Scene

[35:44 – 44:57]

• Rising Costs and Changing Landscape:
  • Seattle’s restaurant industry is struggling with high costs, making chef-driven creativity hard to sustain ([35:57]).
• What Makes Seattle Distinct:
  • Fluency in seafood: “Any good restaurant is going to have seafood,” not just the stereotypically “seafood restaurants” ([37:07]).
  • Integration of Asian cuisines—Filipino, Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese—“woven into any kind of restaurant all over the city” ([38:53]).
• Seattle-Style Teriyaki:
  • “Ubiquitous as to be invisible”—the unique chicken thigh and sweet sticky sauce combo, historically in Styrofoam boxes ([40:00]).
  • Origins in 1976 by Toshi Kasahara; revival interest and nostalgic importance ([41:26]).
  • Out-of-town friends are baffled by “all of this teriyaki everywhere” ([42:39]).

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Whole Grains Q&A and Pantry Wisdom

[44:57 – 57:28]

Caller Question:

"If you had to choose one or two whole grains to keep in your pantry for maximum recipe adaptability, what would you pick? And what are some of your favorite make-ahead lunch recipes?" ([45:04])

Recommended Grains

• Farro
  • “An ancient variety of wheat… can be used anywhere you would use wheat berries.”
  • Usually sold as semi-pearled (cooks faster, retains some bran and germ) ([46:58]).
  • Works via “pasta method” (boil lots of water, drain when tender) or “risotto method” (stir in liquid gradually for creamy texture).
  • Great for salads, “furoto” (farro-risotto), breakfast porridge, or any “grain salad/mad lib” recipe ([48:36]).
• Quinoa
  • “Technically a pseudo-cereal… great in salads, easy to cook, high-protein” (no need to rinse anymore as it’s pre-rinsed) ([51:35]).
  • Fun to eat with a “pop,” mixes well in cold salads: “Small enough that it clings to the leaves and so it doesn’t all just fall to the bottom of the bowl.” ([53:08])
• Honorable Mentions:
  • Cracked Freekeh: Smoky, fast-cooking, textured.
  • Hāiga Rice: Semi-pearled, nutty, cooks like white rice ([54:11]).
  • Wild Rice: For added texture; favorite of Shannon ([53:11]).

Cooking Techniques

• Use absorption, pasta, or risotto methods—versatile depending on the grain.
• Grains are “interchangeable” in many recipes unless a specific regional dish demands a certain one ([48:36]).
• Keep a “big grain and a small grain” for maximum flexibility ([55:02]).

Leftover Rice Safety

• Naomi warns: “Leftover rice is… likely to become dangerous,” due to bacteria that can survive reheating and cause severe food poisoning ([55:55]).
• All panelists sheepishly admit to eating leftover rice regularly, despite the risk.

Favorite Lunch Formula

• No precise recipes: Use whatever veggies, cheese (feta, browned halloumi), hearty dressing, and balance crunchy, creamy, tart, and rich elements ([57:05]).
• Salads, furoto, or even stirred into baked goods for texture.

Grain Cookbooks Recommended

• Simply Ancient Grains by Maria Speck
• Grist by Abra Berens ([53:23])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Worst Club Sandwich:
  "I'm concerned for the person who made this sandwich… like they've lost their pride, their self-respect."
  — Megan Scott ([05:07])

• On Hotpot Etiquette:
  "Are you ever like, kind of judicious about who you invite to hot pot night? … My mom, she doesn't have the proper care… kind of a splishy splash."
  — Jon Becker ([11:54])

• On Lingcod:
  "If I had to pick, like, a favorite thing that everyone should know more about: lingcod… justice for lingcod."
  — Naomi Tomky ([28:58, 30:26])

• On Seattle Teriyaki:
  "So ubiquitous as to be invisible."
  — Quote credited by Naomi from a NYT article ([42:53])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Holiday Cooking Stories: [00:38 – 10:28]
• Naomi Tomky Introduction & Hot Pot Discussion: [10:32 – 15:33]
• Learning to Cook with Joy of Cooking: [15:33 – 17:04]
• Travel and Food Experiences (Taiwan, Albania, Uruguay): [17:04 – 24:44]
• Pacific NW Seafood Chat: [26:00 – 32:23]
• Seattle Food Scene and Teriyaki Origins: [35:44 – 44:57]
• Whole Grains Q&A Caller Segment: [44:57 – 55:02]
• Weekly Recipe Pick: Freekeh with Greens, Chickpeas & Halloumi: [57:28 – 58:35]
• What’s Cooking This Week – Team Roundtable: [58:55 – 61:53]
• Naomi’s Social Media & Podcast Closing: [61:53 – end]

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Additional Resources, Recommendations, and Socials

• Recipes to Try:
  • Firecrackers (seasoned saltine snack, going into the next Joy edition!)
  • Freekeh with Greens, Chickpeas & Halloumi (Joy of Cooking, p.338)
• Where to Find Naomi Tomky:
  • Instagram: @theoregastronome (“…with an extra G, like a gnome.”) ([61:53])
• Grains to Start With:
  • Farro (especially emmer), semi-pearled
  • Quinoa and wild rice for salads and texture
• Cookbook Recommendations:
  • Simply Ancient Grains (Maria Speck)
  • Grist (Abra Berens)

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Tone & Takeaways

Joyously nerdy, friendly, and realistic—this episode candidly demystifies grain cooking and Pacific Northwest food, foregrounding joy and adaptability in the kitchen. Naomi Tomky’s creative energy and the hosts’ supportive camaraderie set a welcoming table for home cooks to experiment with grains, embrace culinary “failures,” and savor the intersection of food, travel, and tradition.

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Next Week:
Listener Q&A – “How to cook with yogurt.”
Don’t forget to make Freekeh with Greens, Chickpeas, and Halloumi (Joy of Cooking, p.338), and share results/ask questions via hotline: [phone].

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Transcript

[Naomi Tomke]

Sa.

[Shannon Larson]

Welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for a discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of the Joy of Cooking, kitchen victories and misadventures, and what we're cooking and eating right now. We're glad you've joined us at the table today. I'm Shannon Larson, home cook, Joy of Cooking user and fan and caramelizing onions and a wok enthusiast.

[Megan Scott]

I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night, and I never thought I would end up a vermouth drinker.

[Jon Becker]

I'm Jon Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook, and I am currently a 5050 blend of excess party mix and citrus.

[Megan Scott]

What is excess party mix?

[Jon Becker]

We made too much.

[Shannon Larson]

It doesn't exist.

[Megan Scott]

That's not a thing.

[Jon Becker]

What am I supposed to call it then? Surplus?

[Megan Scott]

No, just. It's just party mix.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah. It's always the right amount.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Correct amount.

[Naomi Tomke]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. I'm sure nature intends me to eat this, you know, like an entire bag by myself.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

Around the holidays. Yes.

[Megan Scott]

Yes. Are you a party mix? Are you from a party mix family?

[Shannon Larson]

We never made it growing up, but we would always be around. We were more like during the holidays we would have those tins of popcorn that were like the three different kinds. The cheese and the butter and the car. Was it the caramel corn?

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, caramel corn, yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

So that was like a staple in our family. And then we would keep the tins for no reason. And my mom would.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. What would you do with them?

[Shannon Larson]

I don't know what she did with them. Put mail in them? I have no idea. I'll ask her next time.

[Megan Scott]

I don't ask her.

[Jon Becker]

Did you say male?

[Shannon Larson]

I don't know what she did. I mean, I just remember them being there for way too long. And as somebody who likes to get rid of stuff, it would drive me crazy.

[Naomi Tomke]

So.

[Megan Scott]

So my family had the butter cookie tins. Oh, yeah. Like the blue. The Dan. What are they called? Royal Dance or something.

[Shannon Larson]

And there's always like, sewing material.

[Megan Scott]

Sewing stuff. Yeah, or whatever. My great grandmother wouldn't throw any container away. She was born in like 1918 or something. And so she just kept everything. Like sour cream containers, country croc containers.

[Shannon Larson]

Country croc container.

[Dirk Marshall]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

We ate a lot of party mix over this holiday, so that's a good thing. We have a recipe in Joy that we've Been kind of tinkering with. It's kind of open ended and what, what you can like season it with a little bit. So I, I was using Slap Ya Mama and then lots of Worcestershire sauce, Dijon mustard butter, garlicky butter.

[Jon Becker]

I did a batch with some of the, the garam masala. I think Garam Masala 2 is the second version that we have in the book. It was a good batch.

[Shannon Larson]

There was one time I was cat sitting for you guys and I remember sitting on the couch with the cats and just eating.

[Megan Scott]

Could be worse. I know. I was going, what were some of the highlights, the culinary highlights of your Christmas and New Year?

[Shannon Larson]

We stayed home for the holiday and so we did a lot of cooking. Lot of random things. I made a great curry recipe from Hetty McKinnon that I loved for a friend who was staying with us from New York. But the big things we did was we cooked a whole duck on Christmas Day and it turned out great. It was perfect. So that was exciting the first time we did it and we were very, very proud. John was very, very nervous. So it was great. And then I think we've started a new tradition on New Year's Eve to do homemade sushi. We always like watching the Twilight Zone, old Twilight Zone episodes on New Year's Eve. And so this year we decided to make a ton of homemade sushi and just sit on the couch and I, I don't know how many episodes we.

[Naomi Tomke]

Watched, but it was a lot.

[Shannon Larson]

And I, we really had a good time. So I think that's going to be what we do from here on out. We're too old to party.

[Megan Scott]

Oh yeah. Goodness, no.

[Shannon Larson]

Watch the Twilight Zone. But yeah, in general, lots of cooking. Really fun to just be able to focus on that and not feel tired from work and stuff. So I felt really lucky.

[Megan Scott]

Duck is fun too. I feel like duck is just such a special thing.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, it felt really special. We won't make it more than once a year and, and so that was nice. What about you two?

[Megan Scott]

So I have a low light and a highlight. My low light is that I ate the worst club sandwich of my entire life over the holiday break, which was very upset. I was amazed at how upset I was about it. Like, it kind of ruined my day.

[Jon Becker]

We actually started like, kind of wondering like who had hurt the person that made it.

[Megan Scott]

Yes. I was like, I'm concerned for the person who made this sandwich is like they've lost their pride, their like self respect.

[Shannon Larson]

And I mean, it's like a simple.

[Megan Scott]

Sandwich should be Pretty simple. I mean, the devil's in the details, but, like, it just had this big, solid brick of meat in it. Like, the. The turkey wasn't ruffled up, you know, so it didn't have any air in it. The texture was all wrong. The bacon was weird and not crisp and very flabby and kind of tough in a weird way that I was just like, I don't even know how. How you get it this bad. Like, all you have to do is buy a few ingredients and assemble them in a decent way.

[Jon Becker]

I mean, there are rules.

[Megan Scott]

There are. There are some rules. There are rules. It's the club sandwich. But so now I'm on a mission to find the best club sandwich I possibly can to just erase the memory of that from my brain. Okay. If you know of any good club sandwich, someone recommended a golf. It was like a golf course restaurant or like golf club. And I was like, that actually makes sense. That would make sense. Would have a good club sandwich. But I don't know if I'm ever gonna go to a golf club.

[Shannon Larson]

Maybe we should.

[Megan Scott]

I mean, maybe we should. We should do that together. And then the highlight was just we threw a big Lucky foods party on January 1st and made a ton. We bought like 12 pounds of collard greens, which is. Doesn't sound like a lot, but when you look.

[Jon Becker]

If it sounds like a lot.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. We filled an entire big cooler in our garage. And then we did like three pounds of black eyed peas. And I did four cornbreads and a pound cake and another chocolate cake. We just cooked a ton of food and had like 30 people at our house, which was too many people for our house, but it was fun.

[Jon Becker]

That was a really good time.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Made some Spanish coffees. Some people appreciated that.

[Megan Scott]

John likes to whip out the blowtorch and make Spanish coffees.

[Shannon Larson]

You guys love the blowtorch.

[Jon Becker]

The blowtorch. The blowtorch was a bad idea. No. I was starting to get pretty nervous about the glasses.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, well, I mean, it worked out. I thought it worked out really well.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, I mean, it did, but you.

[Megan Scott]

Don'T want to futz around with a.

[Jon Becker]

I heard some weird noises coming from a glass and I was just like, okay.

[Megan Scott]

Well, I think everyone appreciated your efforts. So. Also, you talk about the.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, yeah, we. So we made firecrackers. It's Anna Hazel's recipe. So yeah, it's. You just take saltines, you put them in a gallon sized bag with what seems to be too much oil, both olive and vegetable, and then a quarter cup of ranch seasoning and, like, a goodly amount of chili flakes. And then you just shake it up and you leave it overnight. And then you bake it in a 250 oven for, like, practically no time. Like 15 minutes. I mean, the trickiest part of the recipe is just finding, you know, enough sheet pan space to kind of push out all the crackers in one layer.

[Megan Scott]

They were a really big hit. Everyone was eating them up, and they are quite delicious.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, it was really good. Subbed part of the ranch seasoning called for in the recipe with some of the pickle seasoning from Trader Joe's.

[Megan Scott]

Ooh, yeah. My favorite, Dave.

[Jon Becker]

Very good.

[Shannon Larson]

And they're sitting here on the table, and I'm going to try one.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, you have to try one. That's definitely going in that. A recipe for firecrackers is going in the next edition for sure. They are fantastic and super easy. I also honorable mention, but McCormick's flavor of the year this year is really interesting. It's blackcurrant. Oh. I just thought it was apropos since we talked about black currant vinegar in a previous episode, but I, I respected their choice since Pantone. Pantone's color of the year is so boring. So boring. So I appreciate, appreciate that McCormick is going big with the black current. Good for them.

[Jon Becker]

You heard it here first, folks.

[Megan Scott]

No, you did it. Probably not. Probably not.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, wow.

[Megan Scott]

And then finally, our recipe of the week last time was not holiday related at all, but campfire bananas on page 177. We did not make them because it has been raining and you need a proper. You need a proper campfire to make them. I feel like you can do it in the oven, but part of the experience is that you're outside and you're at a fire and that. Yeah, they get a little smoky flavor.

[Jon Becker]

It's a good excuse. We do have a fireplace, but whatever.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, but I mean, we weren't dealing with that. It's raining.

[Shannon Larson]

We're going to a cabin soon.

[Megan Scott]

We can. We'll make them there. Yeah, but it's a great recipe. It's really easy, fun for kids. You can kind of customize them. You can put little mini marshmallows, chocolate peanut butter, sprinkles, whatever you want in the bananas. Again, that's on page 177. If you make that recipe, please tag us hejoyofcooking on Instagram. We would love to see what you make. Hey, Joy of Cooking listeners, did you know the same family that taught America how to cook also taught California how to make world class Chardonnay. The same joy and passion for life that inspired Irma Rombauer to write the Joy of Cooking inspired her great nephew Kerner Rombauer to establish Rombauer vineyards. Founded in 1980 in the Napa Valley. Rombauer has been producing acclaimed wines from California ever since. While they're famous for their iconic California Chardonnay, Rombauer crafts a diverse collection of delicious wines that bring joy to your table. Ready to taste the legacy? Visit rombauer.com joy or use code joypod, all caps for 15% off your order. That's R-O-M-B-A-U-E-R.com joy or code joypod, all.

[Dirk Marshall]

Caps must be 21 to enjoy.

[Megan Scott]

We'd like to welcome Naomi Tomke to the table. Award winning food and travel writer Naomi Tomke explores the world with a hungry eye, digging into the intersections of cuisine and culture for publications like Afar Travel and Leisure, and as food editor at Seattle Met. She's also the author of the Pacific Northwest Seafood Cookbook. Naomi, welcome to the show.

[Naomi Tomke]

Hi guys. Thanks for having me.

[Megan Scott]

What have you been cooking and eating lately that you're excited about?

[Naomi Tomke]

So we have entered what we call in our house hot pot season. And so we eat a lot of hot pot. It is just like the coziest thing. And if you make it a lot, it's the easiest thing because we just have like the grocery bag full of hot pot ingredients in the freezer and you pull it out and whatever, vegetables and scraps and whatever, and everybody sits there and dips.

[Megan Scott]

Do you buy the hot pot seasoning mix or do you make it yourself?

[Naomi Tomke]

We buy it.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Naomi Tomke]

I've tried making it once or twice and it's never as good. I think I don't add enough MSG and Sichuan peppercorns or something.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, you want the, you want, I feel like you want the store bought stuff. Like it just, it does taste better.

[Naomi Tomke]

It does. And it's also very easy to. We have the split pot and we can do like a mushroom or tomato one for the kids and some sort of hairy fireball for our side.

[Jon Becker]

Are you ever like, kind of judicious about who you invite to hot pot night? Because I don't know, we've had some issues with like, for instance, my mom, my mom, she doesn't have the proper care when she is adding ingredients, you know, kind of, kind of a splishy splash.

[Megan Scott]

She drops them in from a great height and then they splash all over the place. It's a hard skill to teach.

[Naomi Tomke]

I mean, my 8 and 10 year old had to learn that lesson. The hot pot. My mother is actually quite happy to do hot pot with us. She doesn't like going out for hot pot because she finds it offensive that she would be in a restaurant and then have to cook her own food.

[Jon Becker]

I mean, you know, I guess I get that.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. But you gotta assemble. I mean, assembling all the ingredients and then, I mean, it's not like you have to have that much. You don't need much of any one thing. But at a restaurant you have a great variety of things to choose from. True.

[Naomi Tomke]

And I always get new ideas when we do go out for hot pot. I was like, what else I could add?

[Megan Scott]

Do you have any favorite hot pot additions?

[Naomi Tomke]

So when I can find it, Celtis is like mind blowingly good.

[Shannon Larson]

I don't know what that is.

[Jon Becker]

Stem lettuce. Oh, it's lettuce. But it's been bred to have a very large stem and the leaves are still, you know, obviously the leaves are still there. They're just really much smaller and you can pretty much disregard them. You peel the stem, it's identifiably a lettuce flavor, but it has more nuttiness.

[Megan Scott]

It's very crisp. It's got a nice, just crispness.

[Shannon Larson]

That sounds great.

[Naomi Tomke]

And it's like very weirdly complex. Savory. That like, in a way that you don't think of lettuce, you think of lettuce as sort of plain, but it's like this concentrated lettuce flavor.

[Megan Scott]

Huh. That's a good niche hot pot addition. I never see, I hardly ever see Celtos unless it's at the farmer's market sometimes.

[Naomi Tomke]

I don't think I've ever seen it at the farmer's market. There's an Asian market not far from us that usually carries it in season. I don't know what the season is, but it'll have it for long stretches and then it won't.

[Megan Scott]

I grew it in our garden one year and it was, it was as easy as growing lettuces. So definitely worth trying.

[Jon Becker]

I have to say, every time I've been to 99 Ranch over like the last few months, I've seen Celsus.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, I just haven't been paying attention.

[Shannon Larson]

But I haven't either. I go there all the time. Yeah, I'll get some.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, get some.

[Naomi Tomke]

I'm like obsessed. It's my like niche ingredient for everything. It's so good. I don't understand why we don't. We're not all obsessed with subs.

[Megan Scott]

We're in the. Definitely in the niche vegetable club over here. I feel like we're big fans. Anything that's hard to find, we love it.

[Jon Becker]

Sure, yeah. Why not?

[Megan Scott]

And so, something we ask all of our guests. Naomi, what is your relationship to the Joy of Cooking? Did you grow up in a Joy of Cooking household?

[Naomi Tomke]

I did not grow up in a Joy of Cooking household, but I didn't really grow up in a cooking household. So that more had to do with the fact that one would need a use for the cookbooks, like actually cooking anything besides dried spaghetti and charred pasta sauce. My mom can't ever listen to this.

[Jon Becker]

You heard that? Stop listening.

[Naomi Tomke]

But when I was, like, 22 and fresh out of college, I picked up guys, I brought. I brought props to show you. I know they can't see it on the.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Naomi Tomke]

But I picked up a thrifted copy of I don't know. It's from, like, the 70s. And so I have used that, like, when I was learning to cook and figuring out what people did with their kitchens. That room in the house where. And then I have the new one.

[Megan Scott]

Awesome.

[Naomi Tomke]

As you can see, they're both very stained.

[Megan Scott]

That's a good sign.

[Naomi Tomke]

I don't know if you guys remember, but the Joy of Cooking event that you guys did at Book larder was, like, March 3, 2020 or something.

[Megan Scott]

Yes. It was so surreal. It was our last book tour event. There were a few Covid cases already in Seattle, and we were scheduled to do this event in Seattle, and we were both asking our publicists, like, should we be doing this? This feels a little like. It just felt we. We weren't really sure what. Because nobody knew exactly what was happening or what. What we should be doing. And so she was like, oh, no, no, no. It's fine, it's fine. Just go. So we went, and the hotel that we stayed at was almost completely empty. It was kind of creepy. And we went to the Book Larder event, which was very full of people, which was great, but also felt, again, really odd.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. Everybody seemed to be a little. A little nervous about, like, being in such a crowded area.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. But it went well, and we were okay. And then we came back, and the next week, I think everything shut down. So, yeah, super odd time. But it was nice. It was nice to meet you there. Yeah.

[Naomi Tomke]

I just remember being, like, plastered against the sidewall, trying to avoid people in, like, a tiny room with, like, 50 people in it and being like, I really want to go see them and meet them, but should I be here? Yeah, I absolutely should.

[Megan Scott]

We made it. We made it. What have you been up to in the intervening years?

[Naomi Tomke]

A lot of food and travel writing. Like, two years ago, year and a half ago, I took a food editor position at Seattle Met, which has been very fun because I love Seattle and our restaurant scene. And it's always been something that I wrote about, but never, like, dug quite as deeply as I get to when it's my job every single day. And that also means that I don't have to scramble all the time to do my regular food and travel writing. And I get to, like, just do the things I really want to do. And so I have written. Been sort of researching the food of the Balkans a lot. And I was in Taiwan twice last year, which is just food heaven. And, like, learned so much about various things. I also in Taiwan. Back to our topic at hand. Hot pot is, like, everywhere. And I'm like, oh, this is the vacation destination for me because we'll go to a hotel in the mountains and, like, do things all day. And then you come back to the hotel and the dinner is just, like, hot pot made from all the ingredients they grow around the hotel.

[Megan Scott]

That sounds delightful.

[Naomi Tomke]

It's made for me personally. Designed for me.

[Megan Scott]

Is that one of your favorite travel destinations you've been to in recent years?

[Naomi Tomke]

Yeah, my husband used to travel to Taiwan all the time for work. And for years he was like, we should go. We should take the kids. And I was like, I don't know, like, why am I going to Taiwan? Like, yeah, sure, maybe someday. And he finally convinced me, and I ended up going twice in three months.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, wow.

[Naomi Tomke]

It's amazing. I just was like, oh, oh, this is why you wanted me to go? I think he really just wanted to go back and eat his favorite bowl of beef noodle soup. But also that there was a lot of things to love.

[Shannon Larson]

Are there any other favorite, like, under the radar food destinations of yours?

[Naomi Tomke]

I mean, I've been. I'm on like, year three or four of telling everyone this, but Albania people are like, oh, I don't even really know where Albania is. It's okay. Nobody does. But it's like 40 miles across the water from Italy and directly north of Greece and also was in the Ottoman empire for, like, 500 years. And that is a recipe for extremely good food.

[Megan Scott]

Can you share some highlights of your trip there?

[Naomi Tomke]

Yeah, I spent a lot of time going to, like, agritourisms. They're like, the country's pretty rural, and there's just all of these little. Like, one of their rising economic interests is all of these little guest house type things. And the dairy there is just incredible. And one of the first mornings we sat down and they bring in the milk from the neighboring farm twice a day. Once in the afternoon to make into the butter and cheese, and once in the morning and they serve it at breakfast. And I grew up in a city. I don't think I have ever before in my life had milk from a cow milked that morning. And I don't even drink milk. I'm a normal adult.

[Megan Scott]

Sorry.

[Naomi Tomke]

It was just like, one of the most incredible things I ever drank. And also just, like, all of the cheeses.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah.

[Naomi Tomke]

In Kosovo, which is next door, and also, like, culturally Albanian, Ethnically Albanian. We went to a dairy market that was just like 50 people standing around with these, like, butter churn, like, barrels scooping out cheese. And, like, I bought, like, these bags that were maybe the size of, like, a softball. And, like, they laughed at me. Like, that's such a small amount of cheese. They didn't even charge me.

[Megan Scott]

And I was like, oh, my God.

[Naomi Tomke]

But it was just all of these incredible types of cheese that are gooey and, like, not aged gooey, but, like, how they're made. I can't. Like, just wonderful. And they're just all over the place there.

[Megan Scott]

So a lot of fresh cheeses. That sounds like my. My kind of place. I'm trying to remember. There was a story you wrote where you started off with a cow licking your hand and it made everything okay. Was that on that trip?

[Naomi Tomke]

That was. So I took a couple trips to the Balkans, but that was in Kosovo. I maintain that the baby cow licking my hand was, like, one of the greatest things that's ever happened to me in my life.

[Shannon Larson]

Baby cows are so cute.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. They are so stinking cute. Have there been any destinations you've traveled to where you enjoyed your trip? But, like, the food was not really the highlight of the trip.

[Naomi Tomke]

I always feel bad when I say this. I'm sorry. Uruguay. Oh, I know. I will say it was a long time ago, and maybe they've grown. And every couple of years an article comes out talking about how great the food of Uruguay is. When I lived there, it was not.

[Megan Scott]

Didn't your friend live there, John?

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, my friend, Elisa. Hello. If you're listening, Elisa. Yeah, I feel like Elisa was in Uruguay for a good year. And, yeah, she. She too, commented. Just there was a serious lack of variety and not very much in the vegetable department.

[Megan Scott]

A lot of beef.

[Jon Becker]

A lot of beef.

[Naomi Tomke]

Yeah, yeah, basically, yeah. And when I lived there, there wasn't even a lot of beef. Again, this was like a long time ago, but there wasn't even a lot of beef because they had to sell the beef as exports. And so it was like a lot of processed ham and processed cheese and then a lot of empanadas, which was really the highlight.

[Megan Scott]

I mean, love an empanada. I follow. Well, I watch this guy on YouTube who reviews MREs, and I think it's always so interesting to see, like, he'll review MREs from all over the world. And it's so interesting to see what is kind of representative of each country because, like, in the US it's a lot of meals that we think of as like these quintessentially American things. Like, they even have, I think they had for a while, like an MRE burger and MRE pizza slice and stuff like that. But yeah, I think there was a lot of. There was a beefy thing going on with Uruguay, but, I mean, that didn't seem so bad.

[Naomi Tomke]

I mean, I think a lot of it was like John said, the lack of variety was a big part of the problem. And so, you know, people will go to Uruguay for like a day or two from Argentina and they're like, I had a great time in Uruguay. And I'm like, yeah, cool. It was right around like week five.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah. You were there for a while.

[Naomi Tomke]

Then I will say one thing that they do amazingly and that I have like carried along with me through the years is provoletta, which is a type of cheese, kind of like provolone, I think. And they just put like a flat disc of it, like a 2 inch high flat disc of it over the grill and just let it melt and then top it with like oregano and red pepper and salt and then you just like dip your bread.

[Shannon Larson]

That sounds good.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

So. So it is a melty cheese. It's not like a grilling cheese or, you know, like, like halloumi or something?

[Naomi Tomke]

No, and like when I do it here, I put it in a pan on the grill. It's somehow there. Like they would just like put it over the grill and take it off at the perfect moment before it just collapsed through the grill.

[Jon Becker]

I would totally mess that up.

[Naomi Tomke]

I would.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, Sounds like a skill to be honed.

[Naomi Tomke]

They are very much grill masters there. See, now I feel like I've said mean things about Uruguay. I'm Trying to also do things well.

[Megan Scott]

We like Uruguay. We don't have bad feelings about it at all. I was just curious because you're so well traveled, and I'm such a food. When I travel, I'm such. I'm so interested in the food, and I'm always curious, like, is the destination about the food or is it about other things?

[Naomi Tomke]

I mean, I'm almost always looking for food. I think that there is places where it is hard to find, like, the best food when you're traveling. Because, like, we went to the east coast of Sri Lanka in 2014, and it was just getting into, like, tourism after having been through a war and a tsunami, and there wasn't, like, restaurants in the sense that we think of them here. And so at first, we were, like, having trouble finding good food. And the food at the hotels was good, but it was kind of hotel food, like, everywhere. And then we just went over to this woman who had sort of, like, a little guest house type thing and was like, would you make us dinner tonight? And she was like, yeah, what do you want? And we were like, what are the options? And then a guy biked by with a bicycle basket full of sardines and asked if she wanted to buy them. And she was like, I think they were sardines. Some sort of little silvery fish. And she was like, do you want these fish for dinner? And we were like, great. That sounds wonderful. So sometimes it's just a matter of figuring out the right way to get to the good food.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Speaking of fish and seafood, I just found out today that you're allergic to salmon, and yet you wrote a Pacific Northwest seafood cookbook. How did you. How did you do that? I feel like salmon is such a.

[Naomi Tomke]

Thing here, you know, I wasn't allergic to salmon when I wrote the book.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, that's so tragic. Yeah. I hate hearing about people's adult allergies, because it scares me. Like, this could happen to me.

[Naomi Tomke]

I am in the middle of. I'm in, like, month three of trying to write an essay about this, and it's really hard. I'm like, still too soon.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's too sad.

[Naomi Tomke]

Someday this essay will happen.

[Jon Becker]

Do you think it was all the testing you did for the cookbook or.

[Naomi Tomke]

I mean, I think it's involved because once I figured out that this was what was making me sick, the only two other times I've ever had serious cases of food poisoning, one definitely involved salmon, and the other might have. It was in Peru on a beach, and, like, who knows what was in the ceviche. And so I'm like, oh, every time I have a reaction, it gets worse and worse and worse. So it definitely could have been that I ate all the salmon. And as it got worse and worse, sometimes I would have reactions. But I was teaching a cooking class about salmon and ate the salmon, like, during the class. And then, like, an hour later, I got sick. And then my family ate the salmon later that night, and we're fine. And I started to be like. And then, like, it just kept happening. I would eat salmon, and everyone else would be fine, and I would be, like, half dead. And finally, after this happened many times, like, more times than I really want.

[Shannon Larson]

To admit in public, you're like, I'm.

[Megan Scott]

I cannot be allergic to salmon.

[Naomi Tomke]

I have finally accepted that I cannot eat it. And it's very sad. And when people realize it, they laugh. And that feels really mean.

[Megan Scott]

It's kind of brutally ironic. I don't know. Like, there's something poetic almost about it, but in a bad way.

[Naomi Tomke]

The fish have gotten me with the karma.

[Megan Scott]

They've got you. But, like, speaking of Pacific Northwest seafood, what are. In your opinion, like, what are the highlights of Pacific Northwest seafood? I think it's pretty great, but what are your favorite things?

[Naomi Tomke]

I mean, I do love salmon, so I'll just. My. My husband will order, and I'll just be like, let me just smell. Oh, that looks really nicely cooked. I think our oysters are the best. That is up for debate.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I think that's a controversial statement.

[Naomi Tomke]

I once met a guy that was the head of the Louisiana oyster. I don't know. Association. Oyster Men Association. And he said everyone thinks that they're, like, oyster. Wherever they had their first oyster, that's the best oyster. And, like. Okay. I'm okay with that because I do think that we have the best oysters. I mean, part of it is that we have so much that's so good. But if I had to pick, like, a favorite thing that everyone should know more about lingcod.

[Megan Scott]

What do you like about.

[Naomi Tomke]

Is a white fish. So it, like, accepts a lot of flavors, but it also has its own. It cooks up really nicely. It's not super lean, like. Like a halibut. You don't have to add, like, a ton of fats and whatnot to make it work. Well, it. I mean, I love black cod, but there's, like, a limit to how much you can eat, because it's just, like, overwhelmingly. And lingcod is just sort of in the middle. It's flavorful. But it also, like, works so well and everything. It's super easy to cook. It's very forgiving. Yeah, I just, I think it's wonderful and it's sustainable local fish and occasionally.

[Megan Scott]

We'Ve bought it and the flesh of the fish is like a kind of translucent blue color. It is the most interesting thing and I can't. Can you remember why it turns blue? It's not always.

[Naomi Tomke]

It's not always. There's blue ones and not blue. And I once went on a fishing trip in which we caught them and they are grotesque looking creatures.

[Jon Becker]

So interesting. I feel like it is a diet thing.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. I want to say it's a diet, but I can't confirm. I need to do some research on that.

[Shannon Larson]

I'm going to be wikipediaing this later.

[Naomi Tomke]

I can't remember what I said about it in the book, but I think I'm like, it's okay if your fish is blue. Don't worry about it, guys.

[Megan Scott]

Don't think too much.

[Naomi Tomke]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's really it. Don't overthink it. If your fish is blue, it's going to still be delicious. I love lingcod and I think that it doesn't have any of the, like, sexiness of a salmon or even a halibut. I don't know. Halibut has a very sexy reputation compared, and lingcod deserves that. I justice for lingcod.

[Jon Becker]

I definitely appreciate halibut, but I do think that at least as far as the price per pound is concerned, it might be a little, a little overrated. Just a tiny bit.

[Megan Scott]

It's very expensive. It makes me. Every time I look at it and think, oh, maybe we'll get some halibut for dinner. I'm like, actually, no, probably not.

[Shannon Larson]

Every time I think about doing it, I'm always like, that's just too much, a little too much pressure because then I'd want it to be cooked absolutely perfectly. And I can't promise I'll do that.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, and it does, it does dry out.

[Naomi Tomke]

Halibut's like the hardest. Yeah, they cook like really perfectly. So my cookbook is partially, like, meant to be very encouraging and like for beginners. And so there are not a ton of halibut recipes, first of all. And one of them that there is is what involves like mayonnaise and parmesan cheese because that is how you avoid trying it out. But mussels have the same reputation, like, as if they're going to be this like, super easy thing to do and like I'm like, never start with mussels. They're going to go bad by the time you've driven them home from the grocery store. What you're thinking of is clams. Clams are easy, but, you know, some of these things, they just got, like, a reputation at some point in time and people gravitated towards them. But halibut price per pound, it's like, really? It's down at the bottom.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's eye watering. Eye wateringly expensive. You know, we're big fans of Rombauer Vineyards. They're sponsoring today's episode, actually. But honestly, their wines are fantastic, with so many joy of cooking dishes. My current favorite is their Sauvignon Blanc with our khao soi gai recipe. That bright, crisp wine cuts right through the richness of the curry. It's perfect.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, absolutely. Being Oregonians, we take our pinots seriously. We're excited about their new Pinot Noir, which pairs beautifully with our chicken jambalaya. The wine has enough body to stand up to all those bold creole flavors.

[Megan Scott]

If you want to try these pairings yourself, head to ronbauer.com joy or use code joypod all caps for 15% off. That's R O M B-A-U-E-R.com joy or code joypod all caps must be 21 to enjoy. I'm really curious. So one of the things that we have here is bay shrimp. The tiny, tiny, tiny little salad shrimp. I have kind of a. It's not that I dislike them, but they kind of creep me out a little. Me too. They're just like, tiny. They're bugs.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, they're like a mound of little tiny sea bugs.

[Megan Scott]

There is, there's. There's a graffiti. I don't know someone who tags around Portland, and the tag is just, shrimps is bugs. And I'm like, yes, shrimps is bugs. How do you cook or use. Because they're usually already cooked. How do you use those little bay shrimp? Do you have any favorite preparations?

[Naomi Tomke]

So first, I feel like I should admit that I got like a giant bag of them on sale and divvied them up into little, like, 1 pound bags and put them in my freezer. Because I was like, this is great. They're going to be so easy. I mean, I just, like, take them out and cook with them all the time, and. And it's been like a year, and I think not 9 of the 10 bags are still in there, so they're.

[Megan Scott]

Laughing at you from the freezer.

[Naomi Tomke]

But when I do use them. I think the recipe in the book is like a bay shrimp. Louis. They are really good in salad. They're already cooked, and so, like, you kind of just toss them and things like that. They also work really well in sandwiches. Anything where you can mix them with like mayonnaise or a similar sauce and then like, kind of do anything with them. They're not super flavorful. They're kind of just like a texture thing. Like they're like a tiny little nubbin of meat. And so you can kind of. You want to throw them into basically anything where you're not re cooking them, because again, they are cooked.

[Megan Scott]

How do they feel, those little suckers? Like, they are. So there's got to be some really fascinating mechanical or chemical process that they use to. Because they're just too, too small.

[Naomi Tomke]

I don't know the answer. But like, if I. I'm just gonna make something out of here. I feel like. I feel like you could have something like a rubber thing and they would come off because again, because they are already cooked, like, it would break off if they just sort of like rubbed.

[Megan Scott]

Them along and then float. Maybe put water on them and they. The shells float or something.

[Naomi Tomke]

Something like that.

[Megan Scott]

Okay.

[Jon Becker]

Maybe it's like that thing for like that device for plucking chickens.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, Yeah, I could see that. Little rubber fingers.

[Naomi Tomke]

Yeah, we have exactly what I was thinking of. Like the rubber fingers.

[Shannon Larson]

Two homework assignments is blue lingcod. What's up with that? And then bay shrimp.

[Megan Scott]

Okay, I'm gonna write it down. So I actually remember.

[Naomi Tomke]

I feel like I learned a lot in writing my cookbook about Pacific Northwest seafood. But you have managed to. Seafood questions.

[Jon Becker]

So I mean, to be fair, it's been. It's been a few years since. Since the research for the book.

[Naomi Tomke]

You know, it came out five years ago. Six years. No, six years ago. So the research was like seven and eight years ago.

[Jon Becker]

Man, time flies.

[Megan Scott]

All right, I have a couple Seattle based questions for you or Seattle oriented questions. What do you think characterizes Seattle's food scene? What is unique about it? What is particular about it?

[Naomi Tomke]

That's really tough. And part of that is because it is going through maybe not some of the greatest changes ever right now. It's an unbelievably expensive place to run a restaurant. I think the only place in the country that is even close is San Francisco. When I travel in the US and eat out anywhere else in Portland and Minnesota, in New York City City, even, I'm like, astonished when I get the check because it's just, like, so much cheaper. So because of that, it's really stifling the creativity of our chefs. So we have a lot of amazing chefs. I don't think very many of them are able to open the really amazing, cool restaurants that they deserve right now.

[Megan Scott]

It's just also a really hard time for restaurants right now in particular. Food costs are wild. I mean, we're feeling it in Portland, too. Like, a lot of places are closing, and it's really hard. The rents are still really high, even though they should probably be going down, but they're not. So it just seems really hard to own and operate a restaurant right now.

[Naomi Tomke]

Yeah, I don't know how anyone is making it work. So Seattle has all of that. And then also, you throw in our super high taxes and labor costs, and it just is, I don't know, not even tenable. But now that I've explained that, I think that the kind of two of the things that define Seattle's food scene, and especially its best parts. One is affluency in seafood. I always laugh when people are like, oh, I'm in Seattle. Where do I go out for seafood? Because we don't necessarily think of, like, going out for seafood here, because any good restaurant is going to have seafood. Like, you could go to, like, a top Chinese restaurant, and it's going to have great seafood, and you can go to sushi, and obviously it will have seafood. But you could go to, like, a sandwich shop, and they'll have seafood on the menu. And it's just like that. Like, being good at seafood is kind of a basic of being in Seattle. And then the other thing, I think, is a fluency in various Asian cuisines, but I think especially Filipino, Japanese, Chinese, and Vietnamese food. And so, like, we have communion, which is like, a Seattle restaurant based in the central district, which is like the historically black neighborhood. And they have like, a. Their take on a banh mi, because that's just, like, a part of that neighborhood. And so you will just see those things kind of woven in to any kind of restaurant all over the city. We have a fried chicken place down the street that is like, actually a Filipino fried chicken place. And, you know, people just. They. They get that. That's like a fluency. It's like a basics that informs all of the other cooking.

[Megan Scott]

I also think of Seattle as being kind of ground zero for, like, teriyaki restaurants, which is, like, a very particular thing. Can you describe a little bit what that is for listeners who may not know?

[Naomi Tomke]

Yeah. And so there's teriyaki as a thing elsewhere, but Seattle has specifically Seattle style teriyaki. It was invented here, it is now spread elsewhere. It is basically a chicken, though sometimes it goes on other things, but basically chicken, usually thigh with this sort of sweet, sticky sauce on it that is grilled until it like caramelizes. So you have kind of this charred, wonderfully sweet and savory chicken. It always comes, and I say always. Styrofoam has been illegal in Seattle for like, decades, but in my mind, it still always comes in like, the Styrofoam divided container. You have the rice, you have the chicken on top of the rice, a little extra of the sauce poured over it. You have the salad, which is like iceberg lettuce and maybe some shredded, like carrots and purple cabbage with this sweet.

[Jon Becker]

White dressing on it, the poppy seed dressing.

[Naomi Tomke]

I don't know if any.

[Megan Scott]

I mean, sometimes I feel like some.

[Jon Becker]

Of the places around here, at least it's. It's a very distinctive, like, poppy seed style.

[Megan Scott]

But it's just like mayonnaise, vinegar and sugar basically is all it is.

[Naomi Tomke]

I think that sounds right.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Naomi Tomke]

I mean, it's not. It's not super complicated, but it is like that Styrofoam container with those three things. And the guy who invented it is like 1976. And he had been working in restaurants and it was a hard time to fill staff positions and was like, I'm going to invent my own restaurant where I don't need to have other people. It's something that I can only do on my own. Like, I don't need to worry about if someone can't show up for work. And so he was from Japan originally and like adapted teriyaki, which is something completely different in Japan, and like just kind of took the name and used it to describe what he created. And he is still cooking. He has a restaurant in a suburb north of Seattle, and it is still the best. Hoshi's, the original teriyaki. And so that he opened it in like 1976. And then it became like the thing in every, like, all the corner stores and like all the little shops. When I was in high school, there was a shop that was opened by one of his early employees where you could pay for a dollar, you could get a half Styrofoam container just filled with rice with the sauce with like the little meat nubbins poured over top.

[Megan Scott]

Amazing. What a deal.

[Naomi Tomke]

And it.

[Megan Scott]

That's crazy, right?

[Naomi Tomke]

It was great, but it became just sort of this Thing that was everywhere in Seattle and it was, like, super cheap. And so if people moved to Seattle and, like, were, you know, trying to make their way in the world, that was what you ate. And it. So it became, like, very ingrained in Seattle culture. Then Seattle got very expensive and that the people who were moving here had money, and it basically was, like, close to disappearing. And so I wrote in 2015 about, like, how this was a thing that was dying out and then it kind of wasn't anymore. I do not take credit for that. Just so we're clear. This was sort of, I think, coincidental that. That this went in this direction, but it became sort of like this nostalgic thing. I think a lot of people who moved away from Seattle realized that this was something they could only find in Seattle. And so there have been a couple people that have opened chains that serve Seattle style teriyaki and other places. And also there's been some, like, new versions of the teriyaki restaurant that people have opened in Seattle. And Toshi's still cooking.

[Megan Scott]

Amazing.

[Naomi Tomke]

His excellent version.

[Shannon Larson]

I had a friend visiting from Brooklyn one time, and he flew into Seattle and then biked down to Portland. And he showed up and, like, one of the first things he said to me is, what is up with all of this teriyaki everywhere? He was like, what is this?

[Naomi Tomke]

One of my absolute favorite lines about it. Oh, I'm going to screw it up. But the New York Times wrote about teriyaki well before I did, like, in 2009 or 2010. And they had a quote from a guy who specializes in Seattle history that called it so ubiquitous as to be invisible. And I was like, that is the perfect description because you just. You don't even notice it because they're on every corner, they're in every little, like, mini mart. And so, like, you don't think they're special, you don't notice them. And then you go and you live in Phoenix or, you know, Missouri or whatever, and you're like, oh, yeah, it's not.

[Megan Scott]

You can't get it.

[Naomi Tomke]

Oh, hello.

[Dirk Marshall]

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[Megan Scott]

So each week we answer a caller question and this week we're talking about whole grains. Dirk, do you have the question to read?

[Dirk Marshall]

I'm trying to incorporate more whole grains into my lunch prep, but every recipe I find calls for a different option. I eat farro, bulgur, spelt, wheat berries, etc. If you had to choose one or two whole grains to keep in your pantry for maximum recipe adaptability, what would you pick? And what are some of your favorite make ahead lunch recipes?

[Megan Scott]

Okay, this is a really good question because there are so many grains and she's right. That you know, you get a grains cookbook and there's like three recipes for this grain, three recipes for that grain. So we came up with number one, farro. So farro is an ancient variety of wheat, so you can use it anywhere. You would use sweet berries. And farro is kind of a, it's kind of a shortening of a few different things. So farro encompasses spelt, which is called, known as faro grande, emmer, which is faro medio, and einkorn, which is faro piccolo. So spelt is the biggest, emmer's the middle one, and then einkorn is the smallest. But in the United States you mostly find faro. And usually in the United States you're buying, you're actually buying emmer, so you're buying the middle sized one. So it can be used interchangeably or sub it for wheat or even in my opinion, stuff like brown rice.

[Jon Becker]

Well, so quick, quick, quick thing is that, you know, usually when you're, when you find faro, you're right, it's usually the emmer the medium sized sized one, but also it's, it's usually semi pearled or, or pearled. Sometimes it's called either one. But yeah, so part of the brand, but not all of the brand has been taken off and that actually allows. It, allows it to cook faster, which is kind of, I think that's kind of why we chose it. I mean, in addition to the fact that there are tons of recipes out there for faro. But I'm.

[Megan Scott]

Yes, I like that it's semi pearled because you do get some of the benefit of the bran. It's not all taken off but because some of it is, it cooks much faster, which is very nice.

[Jon Becker]

And it's got. Still got the germ, which is nice, nice and kind of adds a nutty flavor.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's a really delicious, nutty tasting grain with just a nice kind of pop chew to it. You can. I wanted to talk a little bit kind of broadly about grain cooking because there's a few different ways you can approach whole grains or really any grain. There are like three different ways of cooking whole grains. You have. Well, there's probably more, but the three we're going to talk about are the absorption method. So kind of like you normally cook rice with this method where you add it to a pot with a specific amount of water and by the end of cooking it has absorbed all the water. Then there's the pasta method where you cook it in a large quantity of water, which is how you normally cook things like wheat berries. But also like a lot of Persian recipes for rice will call for the pasta kind of method. So you have these nice distinct fluffy grains and then there's the risotto method. So you're cooking it and stirring it constantly and adding more liquid until it is done. And you can do that method. You can do. Well, I wouldn't do the absorption method with faro, but the pasta method and the risotto method can both be done with faro. So you can cook it just in a large quantity of water until it's tender. That way you don't have to know exactly how much water you need and you can just periodically check and see if it's tender yet and if it's not, just add a few more minutes. What were you going to say, John?

[Jon Becker]

Oh, just that. And that way you have like distinct separate grains and it's basically you could sub it in any recipe for, for wheat berries or.

[Megan Scott]

Because it's a wheat berry or brown rice. Brown rice or honestly a lot of other. I Feel like a lot of grains are really interchangeable, unless you're trying to make a very specific, like, cultural dish, like, specific preparation that requires a specific grain. So you can interchange them in a lot of recipes, especially, like, salads, things like that. I really like furoto, which is just cooking farro, like risotto, because it's nice and creamy. And then you can add whatever toppings or serve it with whatever protein you want. It's really good in cold salads. It holds up super well. It takes dressing really well. And then you can also kind of make like, a breakfasty porridge with it. So it's really versatile in terms of when you can eat it and what you can eat it with. We were kind of chatting before this episode about how, like, we got down all of our grains cookbooks. And it's a little bit like recipe Mad Libs with grain cooking, because it's always like, this grain with raisins, fennel, and oranges, or, like, you know, it'll be like, with this, this and that. So you can kind of put whatever you have in your fridge or that you want to put with whatever grain, and it's probably going to taste good. You need some kind of dressing. You need something, I think something crunchy, something creamy, something tart, something rich to kind of balance. John, do you want to talk about the second grain that we.

[Jon Becker]

Well, yeah, I mean, so just one word about. One tiny word about substitutions is that, you know, we do. If you. If you're curious about, like, how the cooking times stack up, we do have a grains cooking chart in. Well, we had it. We had it in the 2006 edition, and we. We have it in the 2019 we had with some updates and some. Some new fancy grains.

[Megan Scott]

I don't know why, but I love that chart so much. Like, I just love a chart.

[Shannon Larson]

My sister uses her copy all the.

[Megan Scott]

Time, so you have to.

[Jon Becker]

You have to turn the book sideways.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. So in the wheat berry family, we have a runner up, just an honorable mention, whatever you want to call it. Cracked freekeh. It has, like. It's kind of similar to bulgur. I mean, in bulgur, actually, there are some, like, chunkier, like, grades of bulgur. They get really close to. To cracked freeke. But freeke is immature green durum wheat. Or sometimes it, you know, like, the German version is gr. I think I'm saying that right.

[Dirk Marshall]

You did a good job.

[Megan Scott]

I mean, you sounded really convincing when.

[Naomi Tomke]

You said that and that.

[Jon Becker]

I guess that that's usually was spelt. But anyways it's harvested early and then it is dried and oftentimes kind of smoked. It's dried with a beechwood fire traditionally I think for the German version. And yeah, it's really tasty.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I love the little bit of smokiness. It's not very heavy handed with the smokiness, but just a little bit of that flavor in there, which is really nice. And it does because it's cracked, it does cook faster than a lot of like whole kernel grains, right?

[Jon Becker]

Yes.

[Megan Scott]

And then we also wanted to recommend quinoa, which is technically a pseudo cereal, which. So a pseudo cereal. It produces a grain like seed and you cook them like you do a grain. But it's not in the grass family. It's not a grass. So that's why it's a pseudo cereal. It doesn't really matter for our purposes. But I don't know, it's cool to say. It's cool to say.

[Jon Becker]

It's a cool word.

[Megan Scott]

And then a lot of recipes for quinoa will tell you to rinse it which if you know, you suspect it might be dirty for some reason you could do that. But the reason that recipes call for that is because it used to be that. So quinoa when it is raw would have like a some bitter. They're called saponins but basically they make the grain taste bitter. But now when you buy quinoa, most of it is pre rinsed so you don't actually need to rinse it anymore. So you can skip that. And there's like three different colors you can buy it in or like a multi colored version. They all cook the same. Quinoa is great. You can also cook quinoa like you cook risotto. So you can make something. It's called quinoto, which I thought was cute.

[Naomi Tomke]

That is cute.

[Megan Scott]

It's really good. If you just cook it plain, it's really great in. You can stir it into muffins and quick breads and pancakes and stuff like that. Breads of all kinds. And it provides just a little bit of texture which is really nice.

[Shannon Larson]

I really like the texture of quinoa too. It's like fun to eat. Kind of pops in your mouth a little bit.

[Megan Scott]

It is fun. What do you like to do with it?

[Shannon Larson]

I put it in salads. Like I the two things that I put down was quinoa and wild rice because I'm so texture focused when I'm eating like my grains. I like fun things to eat and most of the time I just mix it into salads.

[Megan Scott]

It's really, it goes great in a salad and it kind of unlike a lot of other grains, it kind of, it's small enough that it clings to the leaves and so it doesn't all just fall to the bottom of the bowl.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, it's really good with beets too, I like.

[Megan Scott]

But yeah, those are our two main grain recommendations. We pulled out a bunch of cookbooks that we have in case you are looking for maybe a good grains cookbook. There's one of my favorites is called simply Ancient Grains by Maria Speck. We actually got her permission to use one of her recipes in Joy of Cooking. It's like a saffron millet recipe. It's delicious and it's very simple, very quick, very simple, but super flavorful and good. And then another recent book to check out is called Grist by Abra Berens. So those are some recommendations if you want to kind of go deep on grains. Anything else? Anything to add? Any favorite lunch recipes to share?

[Jon Becker]

Are you trying to tease something out of me now?

[Shannon Larson]

I have to know.

[Jon Becker]

No, I was. Well, one last thing about quinoa is like I think it's good from a meal prep prep perspective because it kind of allows you to maybe skip like a main protein if. Because it is pretty high in protein. So, you know, maybe not all the time, but you know, if you just want to kind of focus on the vegetables, maybe you're going to get enough protein from the quinoa. And also another honorable mention for a semi pearled grain. Really love hyga rice. So yeah, it's got the germ still on it. So it's kind of has a similar kind of nutty flavor as like brown rice, but it cooks in the exact same amount of almost the exact same amount of time as just like regular white rice. So good.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, hiker rice is delicious. Naomi, do you have any recommendations or thoughts about any of the things we just talked about? Sorry, I have so much got carried away.

[Naomi Tomke]

So many thoughts. I have all the grain thoughts. I really love like a lot of the cereals and pseudo cereals. So like quinoa, amaranth, buckwheat and I don't know, there's a bunch of other ones, but you can actually also like pop them like you would popcorn and like either use that in the salad as like extra texture or just to snack on for fun. So if that is one of the one or two grains you end up going with, there's like a fun extra thing you can do with it. And, like, I went very literal with the question. I was like, well, if you can only have one, I would go with, like, farro, but if I could have two, I would do faro and, like, quinoa or something small, because then you can have, like, a big grain and a small grain. I'm a big rice fan, but I would never recommend rice for this because it turns out that leftover rice is, like, really likely to become dangerous.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Dirk Marshall]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

However, I got to say, we eat leftover rice absolutely all the time. Like, I am aware of the dangers, and we tried to take precautions by cooling the rice down appropriately. But, yeah, I. We live on the edge, I guess. I don't know.

[Jon Becker]

Maybe we should go into, like, what the danger is, isn't it? It retained. Retains a lot of heat, which will then.

[Megan Scott]

Well, there's also a specific bacteria that will grow.

[Naomi Tomke]

Specific bacteria that you can't kill. Like, it doesn't get killed when it gets reheated and you can't see it. And there's no way to know. And there's no, like, known cure.

[Megan Scott]

And it's very bad. If you get it, you get very sick or die. I mean, it's. It has happened.

[Jon Becker]

I take back the hike. I take it back. No hiker rice for this.

[Naomi Tomke]

My. Okay, so, first of all, it's been literally 12 hours since I last ate leftover rice, so I'm in no position to tell people not to do this. But my profile on Blue sky, my social media profile, is literally, I'm gonna die from eating leftover rice because I am aware of the bacteria. I'm very afraid of it, but not, like, afraid of it enough to not eat my leftover rice.

[Megan Scott]

Same. I mean, yeah, so, but we've. I think between quinoa and farro, that those are good recommendations. And I don't. I don't have any super specific recipes that I make with them because it is really just always. If I have them around, I just mix them with whatever vegetables, cheese. Like, they're great with feta or, like, browned halloumi. Speaking of which.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, spoiler.

[Megan Scott]

Getting to our recipe of the week, which is a grain recipe. So the recipe is freeca with greens, chickpeas, and halloumi. See, it's recipe Mad Libs on page 338. But you can use any grain you want. So you could use farro, you could use quinoa, probably you could use wheat berries. So kind of whatever you have, that's just a hearty whole grain but it's got kale in it, like sauteed kale. It's got browned cubes of halloumi, which I love so, so much.

[Shannon Larson]

It's so good.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, it's a really good way of kind of stretching the flavor of halloumi, because halloumi has gotten kind of pricey, kind of expensive. So, I mean, obviously, you could substitute another, you know, quote unquote grilling cheese.

[Megan Scott]

Or you could just. You could use feta. I mean, you can't. Can't really brown it in the same way, but it would be good still. Um, so that recipe again is frico with greens, chickpeas and halloumi on page three. 38. Um, if you have a cooking question or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. We would love to hear from you. And, Dirk, can you please read or play the caller question for next week?

[Dirk Marshall]

My doctor suggested I add yogurt into my diet for more protein. I recently swapped it out in a recipe calling for sour cream. Do you have any recipe suggestions for using yogurt?

[Megan Scott]

Yes, we will talk all about that. Yeah, just a few. We will talk all about using yogurt in recipes next week. All right, what's everybody cooking this week?

[Shannon Larson]

There's a big. So I'm not a big football person, but my alma mater is doing really, really well. And so on Friday, I'm going to watch the game and I might make some. It's Indiana University and make some pork tenderloin sandwiches, because that is an Indiana staple. Oh, yeah, Yeah. I think that.

[Megan Scott]

I did not know that. Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, yeah. They're, like, huge, too. Like, you get them and they're, like, almost as big as the plate, but the bun is like, you know.

[Jon Becker]

I must have shown you pictures of these sandwiches. I. I've been kind of, like, coveting. I've never had a, you know, pork tenderloin sandwich. Yeah, an authentic pork tenderloin sandwich.

[Shannon Larson]

Those Hoosiers know what they're doing.

[Megan Scott]

That sounds kind of like pork tenderloin biscuits, which were a big thing where I grew up in North Carolina. Similar concept, very large fried pork tenderloin on a very small biscuit. Exactly. I like it.

[Shannon Larson]

So hoping to do that and watch a football game, which is very unlike me, but go Hoosiers.

[Megan Scott]

Sounds fun. It's all about the. Kind of. All about the food, in my opinion, when you're watching.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

That's the only Reason I would ever watch a game if there was food.

[Shannon Larson]

Like my team.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, of course, of course. What about you, Naomi?

[Naomi Tomke]

So during the school year, Wednesday nights are noodle night at my household, and we have been off noodle night for a few weeks because of vacation. And so I'm bringing it back with my daughter's favorite dish, which is pasta carbonara.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, excellent choice.

[Naomi Tomke]

Going. Going big for noodle night.

[Jon Becker]

Yum. Maybe we should change our plans. That sounds pretty good.

[Megan Scott]

I'm up for it.

[Jon Becker]

Well, yeah. What are we doing?

[Dirk Marshall]

I'm.

[Jon Becker]

We're definitely juicing a lot of citrus. We impulse bought so much citrus over the last few weeks that, yeah, we pulled out the juicer and we are going to be juicing.

[Megan Scott]

So exciting. We're also going to make. Tomorrow, I think we're going to make dubu joram from the cookbook Uma. It is a tofu dish that is. It's got lots of gochugaru and you made it last, John. What else is in it?

[Jon Becker]

In the sauce? There's a bit of corn syrup and. God, why am I blanking?

[Megan Scott]

There's a lot of green onions.

[Naomi Tomke]

There's garlic.

[Megan Scott]

But it's just a very good, fast, easy tofu recipe.

[Shannon Larson]

I made that. I remember making that. It's so good.

[Megan Scott]

So good. Yeah, so we're gonna make that. And I. I just feel like we have. We now have a roster of several really quick and good tofu recipes that we work through on nights when we don't have a lot of time. And it's just such a val. I feel like tofu is such a valuable thing to, like, know how to cook because it is. It truly can be so quick and it's so good and it just takes flavors super well. And it's so.

[Shannon Larson]

I love. I love the taste of tofu itself.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

So good.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it's really good. And we have some really good tofu makers here in Portland that actually you can get fresh tofu, which is awesome. But, yeah, highly recommend finding a few good tofu recipes to put in your dinner repertoire. And Naomi, before we wrap, where can listeners follow you?

[Naomi Tomke]

I'm on Instagram @theoregastronome with an extra G. Like a gnome. Like a little pointy headed creature.

[Megan Scott]

It's very cute. Your profile is very cute.

[Naomi Tomke]

Thank you.

[Megan Scott]

Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram hejoyofcooking. Stay tuned for next week where we'll talk about using yogurt in cooking. And don't forget to make this week's recipe Freekeh with Greens, Chickpeas and halloumi on page 338. Call in with questions, hopes, history or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

[Shannon Larson]

And we could not do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation Production House. Thank you to Dave Druske, our production coordinator, Haley Bowers, our audio engineer and Dirk Marshall, our producer.

[Megan Scott]

If you love the stories we bring you each week, please consider supporting us on Patreon. As an independent media company, your support is absolutely essential. It allows us to continue creating high quality professional episodes that amplify the voices of women, small business owners, writers, artists and creatives and keep their stories free from commercial pressure. By becoming a Patreon member, you're not just supporting us, you're investing in the future of independent media. Please visit Patreon.com the Joy of Creation Production House to join our community today. Thank you for listening and supporting our podcast Dreams.