Shannon Larson (2:18)

Is that what you did?

Megan Scott (2:18)

Yeah, yeah, we just griddled it. I thought it was really good. It got really crusty that way.

Jon Becker (2:23)

Yeah, it was nice.

Shannon Larson (2:24)

Was it one from one of those, like, random markets in that little town?

Jon Becker (2:27)

It was a thriftway.

Shannon Larson (2:28)

Oh, nice.

Jon Becker (2:29)

You know, had a family name in front of that. You know, the franchisee.

Megan Scott (2:34)

We drove up to Oysterville. There's a town called Oysterville. It's very cute. There's like, nothing there there. It's a historical town, but there's really not anything there. It's beautiful. There is a little place where you can buy oysters, but we were Too late. So we drove back down and went by this place that it was on Google Maps, but it just looked like somebody's house.

Jon Becker (2:55)

And so it was a disconcertingly long driveway, for sure.

Megan Scott (2:59)

Yeah. So it was like, okay, we're gonna go down this driveway and just hope for the best. Like a horror movie. I know. But at the end of this driveway, somebody's garage door is just open, and they have all these coolers sitting there, and then other coolers that are full of, like, clam chowder and crab cakes and stuff. And somebody came out when we drove up, and we just bought a dozen oysters, and it was delightful.

Shannon Larson (3:22)

That's the most magical place to exist.

Megan Scott (3:25)

Like, how does anyone find this place?

Shannon Larson (3:27)

It's amazing.

Megan Scott (3:28)

Yeah. So good oysters, and they were the kind that are. They were real small, and they had the cupped shell, and so they were just delightful to, like, to open and to eat and. Yeah. Very, very good.

Jon Becker (3:39)

Really deep cup. I think it's like they. The tumbling is.

Megan Scott (3:42)

What does that?

Jon Becker (3:43)

I don't know. Something magical.

Megan Scott (3:45)

Yeah. There's like, a mechanical process that some oyster farmers use where they either do it manually, like tumbling the shell, so, like, breaking off little pieces of the shell. It encourages the oyster to, like, make a deeper cup, which is nice. Chefs really like it because you can serve them and they keep their. All the oyster liquor stays inside.

Shannon Larson (4:03)

Right.

Jon Becker (4:04)

Very tidy.

Megan Scott (4:05)

But then some farmers use, like, the tides to tumble their. Like, they'll have the oysters in big bags and then on a buoy, and as the tide, you know, comes in and goes out, the buoy goes up and down, the oysters rub against each other, and they kind of form that deep cup shape. So cool. So interesting. I want to learn more about oyster. Oystering. Oystering. I don't know if that's the term.

Jon Becker (4:28)

It's got to be a verb.

Megan Scott (4:31)

What about you, Shannon? What were you up to this weekend?

Shannon Larson (4:34)

We had a friend over because he got a copy of this Hungarian movie, so. So he and my husband like to watch movies together, and it was called Verkmeister Harmonies. It was, like, over two and a half hours long. I was like, this is crazy. But they liked it, and it gets great reviews, so I should probably recommend it. I didn't watch it, but it gave me inspiration to just do a Hungarian movie night. And so I busted out the joy, and we made chicken paprikash and spaetzle and a cucumber and onion salad. And then Josh brought over a nice bottle of, like, Austrian wine. He couldn't find any Hungarian wine, and it just made me think, like, we should be eating more schmatzel.

Megan Scott (5:13)

It's. So how did the process go for you making it?

Shannon Larson (5:16)

It was so easy. Like, it seems like it would be harder because, like, it's like, oh, I'm mixing dough, and I'm cooking dough, but it's like you just plop it in and make weird shapes, and it's the easiest thing ever. So our new, like, goal is just to eat more of it and pair it with more things. Like, not just for Hungarian. Weird Hungarian movie night.

Megan Scott (5:36)

Well, we're entering that season. We're entering the noodle season. Noodles.

Shannon Larson (5:40)

But I did want to say both recipes turned out great, because I am always thinking of giving you guys a feedback.

Megan Scott (5:45)

Oh, thank you, Shannon. You can give us the real feedback after the show. No, that is the real feedback. I promise.

Jon Becker (5:51)

Appreciate it. So we were in Astoria. We went to a Vietnamese place, and they had the salted kumquat drink that we are just kind of obsessed with right now. Really good. Want to start preserving some kumquats and salt so that I can start making some delicious, sweet, sweet, salted.

Megan Scott (6:09)

It's so good. Yeah, it's like.

Shannon Larson (6:11)

It's from the mica, right?

Megan Scott (6:12)

Yeah. Okay. It's. I don't know. Part of me wants to compare it to Gatorade, but that's not fair because it's way more delicious. But there's something about it that makes me feel like I'm being replenished. Like, my. Like, it's salty and sweet and sour, and it's like I'm getting all these electric. I don't know. It just feels good to drink it.

Jon Becker (6:30)

Yeah. It's on the verge of being too much in each one of those directions. And yet, especially as the ice kind of starts to mellow things out, it just. Yeah. Beautiful.

Megan Scott (6:37)

It's better and better. John also made our recipe of the week, which was the fudgy brownie Recipe on page 765. John, is there anything you want to share about the recipe, or. I mean, it makes just a delicious fudgy brownie.

Jon Becker (6:50)

I mean, I make it, like, pretty much every month specifically for portioning and putting it in the freezer because, you know, just need to have a frozen brownie every now and then. Nothing new to report. I mean, we have some changes we want to make to the recipe for the next edition. I don't know if you want to go through those.

Megan Scott (7:05)

Yeah. So the recipe works fine as written, but over. Over the past few Years, as I've been making it over and over again, there's just a slightly better way to get very consistent results. So the way I developed the recipe was for it to be in one bowl. So you melt the chocolate and butter, and then you add your. And you don't overheat it. And then you add your eggs to that and sugar to that, and. And then the dry ingredients go in. So it's in one bowl. The downside is sometimes the sugar doesn't all get dissolved very well. And so it can give a little bit of a grittiness. And sometimes if you're not careful and. Or you're not paying attention and you get distracted, you can overheat the chocolate, and then the chocolate burns, or you heat it too much, and then you have to wait before you add the eggs. Cause you don't want to cook the eggs. So anyway, the new method I have fixes that you melt the butter and chocolate. Meanwhile, you're over here with your eggs and sugar, and you whisk those together to dissolve the sugar. Then you add your chocolate mixture to the egg mixture, and then the dry ingredients go in. So it's two bowls, it's one bowl. Yeah, but I think it's three bowls. It's more consistent. I think it's easier to get it right when you do it that way. This week, we would like to welcome our guest, Peter Kim, to the table. Peter is the author of Instant Ramen Kitchen and the founder of the Infinite, an immersive experience blending food, storytelling and 360 degree video. He was the founding director of the Museum of Food and Drink, also known as mofad, shaping it into a groundbreaking institution that explores the intersection of cuisine, history, science, and culture. He was the former head of creator partnerships at Pinterest, where he led culinary and lifestyle content initiatives for over 450 million users. He also hosted and created CounterJam, Food52's acclaimed food and music podcast. Peter, welcome to the show.

Peter Kim (8:48)

Yay. It's, well, a joy to be here. I'm sure you've heard that a few times, but yes.

Megan Scott (8:54)

What have you been cooking and eating this week that you want to talk about?

Peter Kim (8:57)

Oh, wow. Gosh. I was listening to you and then I hadn't thought about myself. Well, I just celebrated my daughter's fourth birthday, and there's basically one food group that she eats, and it's called pizza. So for her birthday party on the weekend, I made pizza, but I make pizza in a way that is very different because she unfortunately doesn't really like eating any visible fruits or vegetables. So fiber is always an issue. So I make the crust with buckwheat flour. I use like one sixth of the flour is buckwheat flour, which is just enough to give it some fiber. And then the sauce is never straight tomato sauce. It was like a carrot, cauliflower, and like some other vegetables like sauce that I whiz together with some tomato paste and then cheese. And then the whole thing gets baked. It doesn't have the same sort of structure or feel of like say, a classic New York slice, but it's good. It's really good and she loves it and she gets her vegetables and her fibers. So yeah, that made me happy.

Megan Scott (9:55)

Yeah, that's all that matters. I love it.

Shannon Larson (9:57)

It's like sneaky and smart.

Peter Kim (10:01)

Yeah. I try the non sneaky route with her and with my son, who's a little older, he actually loves vegetables of all sorts. Will reach for the vegetables all the time. And for me, it's all about showing the vegetables, getting them to like vegetables, and then sort of like nurturing that relationship with my daughter. Unfortunately, though, I have to go the sneaky route because she's persistent, let's say. And if she sees even the tiniest speck of a vegetable, it's just. It's curtains.

Megan Scott (10:27)

Yeah, but you gotta have your vitamins.

Peter Kim (10:30)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Megan Scott (10:32)

Do you ever cook with your kids?

Peter Kim (10:34)

I do. That's another book I was interested in working on. But my son started cooking with me when he was 2 and Olive around 2. And you know, I gave them like, part of the rule for me is I want them to actually be helpful in the kitchen. So I find things that actually they can do that are they're good at and that can be supportive. And so peeling garlic is a great example. Usually what I do is I just start by giving the garlic a thwack and then hand it to them. And then those tiny fingers are great, you know, and then once they were like a little bit older, like peeling is actually a great activity. You get a little extra waste, but, you know, I think it's good. Fine. Trade off just to get them in the kitchen. Other things like mixing eggs, mixing batters. And then actually this last weekend also for the first time, I let my son go to the stovetop and cook with my supervision on the stovetop. So he made his first scrambled eggs, which is really cool. Yeah. It's really important for me to have them alongside me in the kitchen.

Jon Becker (11:29)

Peeling garlic that, you know, that's very strategic of You. Seems like, you know, kind of one of those tasks you want to outsource.

Peter Kim (11:35)

Yeah, Like, I don't particularly enjoy doing it, and they do, and I can give them, like, a whole head of garlic. And I just turned to doing the other stuff, and when I turn around, there's, like, peel everywhere, of course, but then I also have this, like, perfectly peeled garlic, and it's. It's great. Yeah, that's useful.

Megan Scott (11:53)

We want to talk about your book, Instant Ramen Kitchen. We actually made one of your recipes over the weekend in our little RV kitchen on a, you know, not so great stove. And we also. So basically, we did everything. Not everything, but we did several things wrong, I guess. We didn't use the kind of ramen that you recommended. We doubled the recipe, and we. Again, we were using not a great stove, but it still turned out extremely delicious and, well, and was pretty. Like, I didn't. We didn't tweak the instructions that much, honestly.

Jon Becker (12:29)

It was a Shin ramyun black, so there were, like, a few extra packets that we were like. We maybe held back on. Like the bone broth packet.

Megan Scott (12:37)

Yeah, we held back. Although I would now I wish we had added at least one, because we. It did need a little salt, surprisingly. But that was because we just didn't add all the. All the seasoning packets.

Peter Kim (12:47)

Yeah. Yeah. And you did the fideua, right?

Megan Scott (12:49)

Yes. Yeah, that. That's a great recipe. And it made me want to make that dish way more often because of how. Yeah.

Peter Kim (12:56)

I mean. And I'm so pleasantly surprised. Although, I mean, I did obviously develop the recipe, and it worked for me, but, like, you know, you just never know how it's going to translate on the other side. And that one in particular just has a bit more variables to it than the other one, notably just having to listen and know when to. When to kill the heat. But, yeah, when it works, it's really great and was, like, kind of a revelation for me that you could treat instant ramen in that way.

Megan Scott (13:19)

Yeah, we did listen for the sound, and also, I mean, we peeked underneath to see if it was getting brown and crusty, and it was. It was great.

Jon Becker (13:26)

Very good.

Megan Scott (13:27)

You wrote this whole book about instant ramen. What role has instant ramen played in your life? Is this something that you. You reach for on the regular, or is it like a food emergency situation or all of the above?

Peter Kim (13:41)

Well, I have. I have a lifetime of cooking with it. I. I grew up in the Midwest in a small town. My parents were immigrant entrepreneurs. They had Hallmark stores and what that meant was. And it was actually, their stores were not even in the town where we lived. And so for. By the time they would lock up the store and come home, I'd be in bed. And so a lot of evenings were spent on my own. And as a result, I honestly, I subsisted off of a diet of industrial convenience food. And it was often these, like, frozen dinners and, you know, things like canned stew and, like, Hot Pockets and stuff like that, too. I mean, I can't. Honestly, when I look back, I can't even imagine that I ate that for that many years, but I did. But there was one thing that got me actually cooking and sort of broadened my perspective on it, and that was instant ramen. And it was something that was easy enough for me to make even at a young age. I was making it, I think, when I was, like, 9 or 10 years old. And very early on, just because there's kind of this natural impulse to do it for whatever reason, I learned to just add things in and, you know, and try adding things in. And I don't think. I don't think people really do that as much with other things. Like, you don't necessarily think, like, I'm going to open up a can of Campbell's soup and, like, add stuff to it or make Mac and cheese and, like, add stuff to it. Whereas with instant ramen, it's practically calling for it. And that's actually something that's very standard to be done. And so, yeah, over the. Over the years growing up, I just experimented with adding all sorts of things into the instant ramen. And what's lovely about it is that it kind of grew as I grew. You know, I started cooking more seriously by the time I was in high school. And then later in life, I went to culinary school. And then still later in life, you know, I started this museum and got exposed to, you know, a whole range of food cultures and cuisines and techniques. And I would always kind of come back to what I would do with the instant ramen. And it was just so. Always so versatile. And the thing at the end of the day was that it was always delicious. And so it's something that has kind of grown with me. And then, you know, beyond that, it's just kind of a staple of my family, you know, even to this day when I'm with my family. And it's not even like we're out of ideas. We have nothing else we want to make. We'll just actively be excited about having instant ramen for A meal. We're not eating in every meal, but, like, we'll be like, hey, let's do, like, ramen tonight. And they'll be like, yeah, well, in Korean, we call it ramen. And so we're like, yeah, let's do some ramen. And then, yeah, it just kind of like goes on autopilot. We'll get the packets and reach in the fridge and grab some stuff and put it together. And it's always like, a great meal and something that just. I don't know, it's just kind of like part of the. Our family culture.

Megan Scott (16:24)

And do you. Speaking of cooking with kids, I feel like I hadn't really considered that ramen is such a great. It's like a very accessible thing for a kid to make for themselves. Do your kids ever make ramen for themselves?

Peter Kim (16:35)

You know, I'm going to start doing that now. I've just. So I just. As I just said, I just started getting my son at the stovetop. And part of it's just because my stovetop is actually very not kid friendly, just where the controls are, and it's like an electric stove. So. But, yeah, I am excited about getting them to make it. And it is something that I. I probably started cooking at, like, eight. Um, and if you. As long as you can just reach the knobs and you know how to fill a pot with water, you can make instant ramen. And that's the thing that's really great about that. And what's amazing also is that the output from that, you could serve that to really anybody, even somebody in the highest echelons of the culinary industry, the Top Chef, and they're probably going to enjoy it because it's just naturally really delicious. Yeah.

Megan Scott (17:21)

It's also such a great way to get to kind of get your feet wet with, like, like you said, experimenting, adding things, adding toppings or adding ingredients, because it's really hard to mess up. It's probably never going to taste bad.

Peter Kim (17:33)

That's it. And I mean, and that's where I think while I'd been doing this as a practice for my whole life, I'd never thought about it in, like, a framework to share with others. And that was kind of my aha moment that led me to the book is that I realized that instant ramen provides you with this really perfect canvas for improvisation and just being creative in the kitchen. You don't have to worry about whether the dish is going to work. You don't have to worry about whether it's seasoned properly. You actually don't even have to worry about, like, well, like what's going to be the sort of bulk of the meal. Like sometimes you have something you want to make, but then you're like, oh, I have to make rice now or potatoes or something to go along with it. The noodles are there, right? And so truly the only thing you have to worry about when you're making instant ramen is just, what do I want to make? And it's such a great open question, like, what flavors do I want? What do I have? You know, what can I play with? And I think the more you start doing it, the more you realize that no matter what you throw in there, it's going to work. My hope with this book and sort of sharing this methodology and then also sharing these different templates to give people the sense of the possibilities is to really open up the possibilities of, well, being joyful in the kitchen. I think, incidentally, I mean, that's a reason why I'm so excited to be on this show is that I think that impulse is very much there with the joy of cooking. The idea of trying to empower people to just sort of like, yeah, have fun in the kitchen and let their creative spirit shine.

Jon Becker (18:53)

Yeah, it really comes through in your book. All of the graphical elements and the charts and, you know, all of it's very, very friendly. Yeah, just really enjoyed. I think it's almost 150 pages of encouragement, I guess, frameworks to be improvisational within. Really good. Really enjoyed reading it.

Peter Kim (19:11)

It does make it a somewhat unusual cookbook. And actually in the book, I note that perhaps might not be best to think of it even as a cookbook, but rather more of as a guide because, yeah, over half the book is not recipes and it's more about how to think through sort of open ended cooking and improvising in the kitchen. And so I could, I could see some people if they're looking for just straight recipes. This is really not like the greatest cookbook for you. I mean, I do have, you know, a lot of good recipes in there, but. But I think for anybody who's curious about cooking and wanting to just sort of learn the sort of methods and just sort of thought processes for creating something that's truly your own dish, then I think this is what I was really aiming at.

Megan Scott (19:56)

Yeah, this book, it feels like a mindset, it's a ramen mindset. Because once you do flip through the front matter before you get to the recipes, I feel like for me, I started to hatch my own ideas of what I wanted to try. That isn't even in the book, so that was very fun.

Peter Kim (20:10)

Yeah, I hope that's the case. Sometimes I say the book is nominally about instant ramen, but it's actually about improvisation. And it just so happens that instant ramen is the canvas in this case. And it's a very forgiving and friendly and cheap and accessible and fast canvas for that. It's almost like in music a lot of times musicians, when they're first learning to improvise, they'll learn over the blues, 12 bars blues, because it's a very simple framework for improvisation that's just a lot more approachable than, say, jazz. And so, yeah, I kind of think of it that way. It's this really sort of like, entry level framework for you to be able to do that.

Shannon Larson (20:50)

I also love just being inspired to try because usually when I cook ramen, it's kind of more on the traditional side of things. But like the. The Shakshuka ramen, I was like, wait, that's genius. Or the Segawatt ramen, I was like, I added that to my list to make next week, honestly. So it, like, makes you think of it. Totally. For me, it was just like opening my mind up to being like, wait, ramen doesn't have to just be like, more of like, the traditional style that I'm used to doing. I can use that as a base for so many different kinds of cuisines and flavors, which is exciting. Gets me out of my rut.

Peter Kim (21:24)

When I was thinking about what. What sort of examples I wanted to give to inspire people, I intentionally went as global as possible. And my. My hope is that, of course, the specific recipes will hopefully be useful and create some, you know, delicious meals for people. But the real sort of meta message is any soup, any stew, any noodle dish, certainly. And honestly, most dishes can be made with instant ramen, because really, at the end of the day, especially if you have like this sort of classic pack, then what you have is a bouillon, a little sachet of bouillon and some noodles. And so many cuisines and so many dishes can work with that. Yeah. I like the idea of kind of breaking past instant ramen as being a base for, you know, just East Asian sort of soup noodles, but rather getting. Getting way past that. Yeah.

Megan Scott (22:16)

Could you tell us a little bit about the history of ramen? A lot of people may think of it as this extremely traditional dish, but it's actually a fairly recent invention.

Peter Kim (22:28)

Yeah, well, instant ramen in particular is a. Is a more recent Invention. The roots of ramen are a bit disputed because it's unclear when I think a lot of theories go that the Chinese brought over the noodles. But with instant ramen, there's a pretty clear understanding of it. It was in the aftermath of World War II, and you had a lot of poverty in Japan, and Japan was also receiving a lot of US Aid in the form of wheat. And there was a fellow in Osaka named Momofuku Ando who was an inventor, and he observed that there were lines of people waiting to eat ramen and they were starving. And so he decided he wanted to try to make something that could help feed all of these people that would be shelf stable and fast and could also use this sort of readily available wheat that was coming in. And so he set about trying to figure out how to make this sort of like this version of ramen. And his big invention was cooking the ramen noodles and then frying them. And the frying action dried them out, which made them shelf stable. But they also made the noodles have a porous structure. And so that allows them to hydrate extremely quickly, which is why a instant ramen noodle block will cook in a few minutes versus Italian pasta, which takes longer. And so, yeah, the genesis was with momofuku Ando. And then, I mean, ever since, it's. Well, there's just been more and more brands selling it, and now you have people around the world eating instant ramen all the time.

Megan Scott (23:55)

Yeah, it's such a cool innovation, just the process by which the noodles are made shelf stable. And then also, I feel like the format, again, lends itself to amazing improvisation and lots of different ways of serving it and different toppings. The toppings are very fun too.

Peter Kim (24:09)

Absolutely.

Megan Scott (24:10)

Do you have any recipes in this book that you consider sleeper hits? Like, maybe on first glance you wouldn't pick it, but it's actually pretty great and everyone should try it.

Peter Kim (24:19)

Oh, let me think. I would say, you know, I think maybe the moqueca, if somebody looked at it, they'd be like, oh, I have to have shrimp and I need, like, fish. But I have to say that is one. Whenever I did so, I would often have people come in and taste my recipes as I was developing them. And the moqueca was quite routinely one that people would stop and be like, oh, my God, this is instant ramen. Like, how is this possible? So moqueca is a seafood stew from Brazil. It's very popular in Bahia in particular. And yeah, it's got this really rich coconutty soup to It. It just works with instant ramen quite well. And amazingly, shrimp cooks very quickly. And a fish fillet, as long as it's thin, even straight from the freezer, can cook in just a few minutes. And so it all works on a timetable of instant ramen and comes together quite nicely.

Jon Becker (25:11)

Yeah, that's actually something we haven't mentioned yet. All of the recipes in the book are around 20 minutes, give or take, isn't that correct?

Megan Scott (25:18)

Yeah.

Peter Kim (25:18)

Maximum. I tested everyone where I set the timer from walking in the kitchen. Not even, like, everything's prepped or everything, but walking into the kitchen and then filling the pot with water, going and getting things out of the refrigerator, and then, like, prepping everything, cooking, and then I would stop the clock as soon as, like, they were the bowl was out. And I managed to get under 20 minutes. And all of them. There's one exception with which is one that's baked, but that one really only takes like a minute or two of prep, and then the rest is just oven time. But, yeah, I wanted to really adhere to the spirit of instant ramen. I think I've seen recipes online where people will take an instant ramen and quote, unquote, elevate it or like, chef it up, and then they absolutely forget the whole purpose of instant ramen, which is its instantness. So, like, you know, they make this recipe that takes an hour or all these ingredients and multiple pots, and at that point I'm just like, why are you even cooking with instant ramen in the first place? The whole point of instant ramen is it needs to be quick and easy. And so I set a lot of creative constraints on myself for the recipes. Maximum 20 minutes. A lot of them can be done in 10 minutes or less. Maximum 10 ingredients, and had to be stuff that you could find commonly in the supermarket, and only one pot. So no, like, two pot action, no using any other appliances actually, like blenders or whatnot. I just wanted to really adhere to the simplicity of it because to me, that's really one of the great strengths of Insta Ramen.

Shannon Larson (26:39)

I have to ask, do you have any brand loyalties that you love? I'm always thinking of, like, you know, stocking my pantry, easy ideas. But we have a market that recently opened up near us that has so many options, and sometimes it's overwhelming, like, brand wise. But I know people have their, you know, their favorites. Do you have any favorites that you love?

Peter Kim (26:57)

I do have favorites, so it kind of runs the spectrum. So in the. In my book, you know, again, adhering to these principles of it being as accessible as possible for people. I stuck only to brands that are commonly available in supermarkets and that have been around for at least 10 years. I think I have a field guide to those brands in there. Within these commonly available ones, there's different categories. The sort of classic flavors are the most versatile. And so actually, if I'm trying to do something that's a little more out of the box, I'm going to use actually those really simple ones. And that's top ramen or maruchan or Sapporo ichiban. And usually chicken or beef or the soy flavor. Sometimes I'll do the shrimp flavor if I'm going in a seafood direction. And among those three, I mean, they are different. They have different flavor notes. I think the Sapporo ichiban, it can be nice if you're looking for a little bigger portion. And the noodles are a little bit chewier from tapioca starch that they add to it. But honestly, any of those three I enjoy, but they do have their different qualities, and I have that sort of detailed out in the field guide. Another category you'll see in a lot of supermarkets are the spicy Korean instant ramens. For that, I definitely have a loyalty to shin ramen. And that's, you know, I don't know that I would say it's like, the best or anything. It's just what I know, you know, and what I grew up with, and something that's sort of like a comfort flavor for me. I know it as soon as I taste it, that it's shin. And so I always have shin ramen on me. And then there's like, a whole category of more niche instant ramens. Well, niche in the US because they're made in other countries when they're imported. And for that, you have things like Mee Goreng, which is really great. And that is a riff off of. I'm blanking if it's either Indonesian or Malaysian dish, but, yeah, it's really great. And it has, like, little peanuts in it, and I think it has, like, a scallion oil and whatnot. But it's really delicious and pretty easy to find if you have, like, a specialty store. There is one called laksa that. Well, it makes laksa, and it's got, like, coconut milk powder in it and whatnot. And it's absolutely delicious. Really good. It's from Singapore, and then, I mean, from Japan and Korea. There's just, like, more brands than you could possibly imagine. And, I mean, I just got A care package sent to me from Japan with like all these varieties. And I've been to Japan, I've been to Korea. And when you go there and you look at the instant ramen section, it's just your head spins from all the options. So I don't even know where to start with that. It's just fun to pick and try at that point for those. Yeah.

Megan Scott (29:20)

Well, we're going to come back and talk about instant ramen a little bit more because we have a caller question related to instant ramen. But I wanted to talk about your other project that you're working on right now, which is the Infinite Table. Can you tell us a little bit about what is that?

Peter Kim (29:35)

Yeah. So I am so excited about this. It's a venture that I'm starting up right now, and it brings together 360 degree video storytelling and food to transport you to cultural destinations around the world. What happens is you walk into a white box room, you sit down at a communal table, the projectors all come on, and then you're in, say, Oaxaca. And then what happens is there's a documentary film that plays in 360 taking you somewhere, and you immerse yourself in the story behind a dish or a product. And so, for example, I actually did a Oaxaca experience, and one of the stories was on mole. And so I had this woman, Karina Santiago, who is a Zapotec woman from Oaxaca, of course, and she has this recipe for mole negro that her family has been making for as long as anybody can remember. What's really unique about her recipe is that her great grandma and her grandma and her mom and her have all been very intense about maintaining the recipe to a T. And it is one of the more elaborate mole negro recipes I've certainly come across. It has 29 different ingredients, and it takes two days to prepare. Each ingredient has to be hand toasted on a comal and then ground in a metate. But anyway, you see this whole process, you get the whole story. You understand her philosophy behind it, what it means to her. And then after seeing this whole process, she presents this green terracotta bowl of her mole to the camera. And in real life, for the guests of the Infinite Table at your table, that same terracotta bowl that came from Oaxaca comes down in front of you with her mole inside of it. And for guests, it was just kind of like, what experience? You know? And they were able to like, actually taste what they had just seen. And I think, like, some people actually started breaking down in tears because they Couldn't believe that they're actually able to eat this thing that you're so used to, like seeing and learning about. But you're like, okay, well, I guess one, you know, it's great to learn about it, but. But it really fused together into a very special experience, which I think like, you know, for any people like you or me, I mean, that's not so surprising because if you think about what the most meaningful food experiences you have, they're always going to involve some context and story behind it that gives the dish a lot of meaning beyond it just being a dish. And so, yeah, that's what the infinite table is built around. I started with Oaxaca experience. I'm now working on one taking people to Kerala, India, and then one taking people to Madagascar to understand how chocolate is made. And I'm raising capital right now to open up the space next year. And it's going to basically operate like a movie theater. We'll have showtimes and you can go stop in at one time and go to Oaxaca, come at a different time, go to Kerala, a different time, go to Madagascar. And now it's something I'm just really excited about getting together.

Megan Scott (32:27)

That sounds incredible.

Jon Becker (32:28)

Wow. You know, when I first learned about your project, I wasn't sure if it was going to be like a traveling pop up, but you're going with a full brick and mortar movie theater style thing. That's awesome.

Peter Kim (32:38)

Yeah. Not just one. I've made the whole thing so they can be replicated in my sort of like, greatest ambition. I want this to be something that can reach a lot of people around the country. And I hope that what it does is really sort of spark empathy and also connections across the table, but also across borders and give people all of the sort of benefits that I think we've all experienced when you travel and being able to see the world from a different perspective. And the reality is there are a lot of people in the country who don't travel. And I think to be able to give that kind of experience to people would be really satisfying for me.

Jon Becker (33:15)

Well, yeah, it makes it so accessible. I mean, it's a great reason to be doing it, for sure.

Megan Scott (33:19)

What made you go with Oaxaca first?

Peter Kim (33:21)

This first one I did as a prototype and it was self financed. And so I had to really think about somewhere that was close where I could not have an extended shoot schedule. And so I thought about, you know, what are the closest places with like really rich food cultures and stories. And to me, Mexico was just like an obvious place to go. And then when I had narrowed it down to Mexico, I thought about, well, where in Mexico, and Mexico City was an option. But to me, there wasn't as much of a sort of coherent, unifying identity there, because it is like New York City, this melting pot. And Oaxaca has a really distinctive identity to it and particularly a very deep connection with indigenous cultures there. And it's just known, of course, for the richness of its food traditions. I mean, Mexico is full of it everywhere you go. But Oaxaca has kind of its own special twist on it, including this relationship with Mezcal. And I knew I wanted to get into Mezcal as well. It came down to Oaxaca, and it turned out really great. I feel very grateful for the people I worked with, because I really. Part of the infinite table is also built on this sort of partnership model. And so we'll go find the stories that we want to tell. We'll work with those producers, film them, and then learn how to make their food. They'll show us, and then we do a revenue share back to them. And so a percentage of every ticket goes back to them. And. And so, really, the idea is to all be sort of, like, on the team together and to build an actual partnership and relationship. And, yeah, now I have these, like, really dear contacts in Oaxaca, and it was just an incredible experience to put it together.

Megan Scott (34:58)

And do. Do your chefs travel with you to learn the dishes, or are you capturing all of that on video for them?

Peter Kim (35:04)

No. So I did bring my chef with me to Oaxaca. Very important to taste and to understand the context and to meet the people behind it and to have that person actually showing you, because there's all these, as, you know. Well, I mean, okay, you can do it. You can write recipes for a cookbook, but to really get it right, you have to see the hands, you have to see the motions. You have to see even the values and the ethos behind it. And so that was very important. And then when we were there, we're tasting things, and I've learned now to eat and kind of imprint a memory of the flavor in my brain. It's like something I've developed some kind of skill for. So we would just taste and close our eyes and be just trying to take a mental photograph of the flavor so that we could replicate it back here.

Jon Becker (35:45)

Did that take place with the mole? I feel like I might have heard an interview, maybe with Dave Arnold, where you were talking about how you had transported the mole paste for at least the first few events. Is that something that you're Going to continue doing, like, with the Madagascar experience and other future infinite tables.

Peter Kim (36:05)

Yeah. So because I do want this to be something where we can serve a lot of people and possibly in a number of locations, it does require being very particular about the dishes that we select. So we're not doing any fine dining for one. And then we're always going to pick dishes that we feel like we can actually replicate. So stews are often a great option for that. And then a lot of street foods lend themselves well to that. But there's a whole range of things you can do. But there are some things that are just kind of off limits. And I think something like that mole negro is something I wouldn't in a thousand lifetimes try to replicate. There's no way. There's no how. That's something where you really have to be from that place with that family background to make properly. But I picked the mole because, in fact, she can make it and just give me the paste. And the paste can travel. It's actually shelf stable and it lasts for months. Yeah. So we actually brought back her mole. And then when I. So that was the thing. When we served it to people, we were like, this is Karina's mole.

Megan Scott (37:03)

Like, that's incredible.

Peter Kim (37:04)

Hands were on this mole. And that's what was just kind of like, mind boggling for people is that they're in Brooklyn and they've just like, they have this woman in front of her, in front of them talking about her story. The video is putting you inside of her kitchen. So you're there in Oaxaca in her kitchen, which is this beautiful, like, traditional Zapotec kitchen. I mean, there's no outlets or anything. It's all just stone and brick and terracotta and clay, and it's very natural and beautiful. And then you're eating this mole and you know that it's actually hers. And it's something that feels really magical.

Megan Scott (37:38)

I want to go. I want to go. We should all. We should all plan a field trip.

Sarah Marshall (37:42)

Business trip.

Megan Scott (37:43)

Business trip. Yeah, Absolutely.

Peter Kim (37:45)

Yeah. Well, if all goes well, I should have the brick and mortar open by mid next year. So in 2026, definitely. Anybody who's interested in learning more about the infinite table, you can go to the website and then sign up for our mailing list. Yeah.

Megan Scott (37:59)

And we'll put all of that in the show notes as well for folks to find really easily.

Sarah Marshall (38:04)

Oh, hello. I just wanted to take a moment to tell you about an easy way to enhance your meals, whether they are a healthy vegan grain bowl. Or that late night snack we'll pretend didn't happen the next day. And that easy way is Marshall's haute sauce. For 15 years, chef and cookbook author Sarah Marshall has been hand making and bottling these delicious sauces. She works directly with local farmers and highlights the lovely flavors of fresh seasonal produce. They're gluten free. There are no additives, dyes, waxes or binders. And they have mouth watering combinations like serrano ginger, lemongrass or habanero carrot curry or even whiskey smoked curry ghost, which was featured on Hot Ones. So head on over to marshallshootsauce.com that's Marshall's H A u t e S a u c e.com and see all the available sauces and spice blends. Oh, that's right. Sarah's created spice packets by dehydrating and freeze drying actual produce so you can impart flavor to your food with more vegetables. But that's a story for another day. Find all of these delicious creations@marshallshot sauce.com and entertainment. Haute joy. That's one word, capital H A u T E capital J O Y. One word at checkout for 20 off. That's haute joy at checkout for 20% off. And now back to the show.

Megan Scott (39:25)

And that kind of leads into the portion of our show where we answer a caller question. Sarah, can you read us the question please?

Sarah Marshall (39:33)

I just got a new job and I'm moving soon and trying to eat all of my pantry items. I have a lot of ramen. Do you have any ideas to make make it fun?

Megan Scott (39:43)

That's a very funny question to get this week suspicious. Yeah, I think we have a book that we can recommend for your instant ramen. But I was hoping, Peter, that you would kind of take the lead. And I have a couple ideas too, but how can we help this person use up their instant ramen?

Peter Kim (40:00)

Yeah. So I think without knowing what this person has in their pantry, of course, other than the instant ramen, what I would say is I'll offer sort of a framework for thinking about it. Well, first of all, I would say reach for anything in the pantry that you have and then build around that. But if you want a framework to start with a pick from your ingredients, I'd say five things. One is pick something that could be browned. One of the things I point out in my cookbook is that before you even add liquid to it, you have a stage where you can actually saute or sear or bloom or infuse in a dry saucepan. And that is Going to just develop a lot of great flavors for your dish. And so I would encourage you to think about something you could brown that could be, if you have in your fridge, any ground beef or any bacon. If you have mushrooms, those are all great candidates for onions even. And then I would say think about something that could add body. And here you've got a lot of pantry items that can do this. Instant ramen on its own has kind of a thin soup. And so I find that adding body really helps a lot. Tomato paste is great. Tahini is good. Coconut milk is great. With the coconut milk, you just sub in, like, for, like, half a cup of your water, put in half a cup of the coconut milk. With the tahini, it'd be like maybe a couple tablespoons at the beginning, and you need to incorporate it into the soup. Otherwise it's going to get clumpy and weird by the end. Tomato paste goes in at the beginning, too. Also, if you have gelatin packets, those are great. You just have to hydrate it in cool water beforehand and add it in. It's going to give you the sensation of it being a soup that has had bones simmering in it, and you get that sort of rich mouth feel. So, yeah, something brown, something to add body also. Oh, the other thing for body could be fat. So anything that's fatty, you can put in there. Butter, lard, oil. Then I would say a vegetable. And I think it could be whatever you have on hand that's in season. Maybe it's cabbage, maybe it's cauliflower. And then a fourth thing is that something acidic at the very end. Obviously, if you have citrus, but I think vinegar in your pantry, drizzle that in at the end. And then I would say finish off with something fresh or, you know, could be herbs or scallions, or if you're dealing with your pantry, just something that's going to add a textural contrast. Crushed peanuts or, you know, a seaweed sheet. If you have those, like, roasted seaweed sheets, you could sprinkle on, you know, toasted sesame seeds. So, yeah, I would just say think about that sort of framework, and you'll end up with a really delicious meal with whatever you use.

Megan Scott (42:16)

I love that. And there's also a really cool flow chart that's in your book for what to cook. So if you really have no idea, it's really. It's just great because that kind of. You can go by what you have or how you're feeling. And yeah, that was just a really appreciated. I feel like, every cookbook should have a flowchart now.

Peter Kim (42:33)

Yeah. And I did give a shout out to Samin Nosret because that was directly copied from her cookbook. And I just thought it was such a great idea. I was like, yeah, I agree with you. Every cookbook should have it.

Megan Scott (42:44)

And then you also have a section in your book about upgrading cup ramen, in case that's the kind of ramen we're talking about. So there's all these different ideas for, for upgrading ramen in a cup, and then you can kind of get the gist of how to do that and come up with your own creations there too.

Peter Kim (43:00)

Yeah, totally. It is like, for that one, I applied even more restrictions because I was like, no cutting, no prepping, no heating of anything. Because anytime, once you've done that, then you've gotten past the purpose of cup. The whole point of cup noodle is add water, then eat. Right. So it had to be stuff you just, just drop into the cup as it is. And so I allowed myself sort of like pre cut frozen veggies. I think those are good and things like that. But yeah, so there's a limited world of possibilities if you want to really stay true to the spirit of cup ramen. But there's definitely a lot you can do with it still.

Megan Scott (43:34)

My ramen idea is something we've talked about on the show before, but it's something I grew up eating. My mom used to make this cabbage slaw that has crunched up ramen noodles. So you, you crunch up the ramen noodles in the package, you toast them. I think she always added sliced almonds and sesame seeds and then just mix that with shredded cabbage and maybe a shredded carrot or something. And then a simple dressing. Hers was always like sesame heavy. So like sesame oil, which is really delicious, but you can also use like a store bought sesame or like soy based dressing or vinaigrette. That's really delicious. And it's a little something different if you don't want to cook it. If you just need a crunchy side dish, I highly recommend.

Shannon Larson (44:15)

I've eaten yours multiple times and it's so good.

Megan Scott (44:19)

Everyone I tell this recipe to, if they're from the Midwest, they've heard of it. They're like, oh, yeah, my mom used to make that. And I think that's so interesting that there was like a period where everybody was making this ramen salad and taking it to potlucks.

Jon Becker (44:31)

I feel like, I feel like you mentioned that you had that salad way before you'd actually had ramen with actual broth.

Megan Scott (44:38)

Yeah. So my, My mom was like. My mom was such a cook when I was growing up. Like, she cooked almost every dinner, every single day. Except for Fridays was. Fridays was like pizza. We're either getting pizza, we're getting Chinese takeout or something. Some kind of takeout. But she was cooking all the time. And so I never needed to eat instant ramen. And it wasn't. Just wasn't around except for when she made that salad. So that's like the way I ate ramen before I ever actually had a bowl of proper ramen, which is really funny. What did you.

Jon Becker (45:11)

Do you have any ideas with some brands of ramen? I really do. Like, just crushing them up in the bag and adding the sachet and just kind of eating it like a barbarian, just as a snack.

Megan Scott (45:21)

That's a perfectly fine thing to do with.

Jon Becker (45:24)

Yeah. So shout out to. What is it? The shrimp Tom Yum flavor of mama. The Thai ramen people.

Megan Scott (45:32)

Is that your go to.

Jon Becker (45:33)

Yeah. For this particular thing. So it's very niche. It's not really good. It's not a very good advice.

Megan Scott (45:39)

Well, I mean, I think if the noodles. If the noodles are fried, they crunch up nicely and already taste like it's not hard. Like when you try to eat raw spaghetti or something, it has more of like a light crunchiness to it, which is really pleasant.

Jon Becker (45:51)

Yeah. So if things get really desperate, you.

Megan Scott (45:53)

Can just eat it.

Peter Kim (45:55)

Well, it's just fried noodles, so, yeah, it actually is fully delicious and edible right out of the packet. If you do toast it, you get a little extra crunch.

Megan Scott (46:03)

Do you have any favorite brands of ramen that you like to eat in that way? Raw?

Peter Kim (46:08)

Oh, no, I think. I mean, I think when I first discovered it with just. Yeah. One of the standard ones. And I. I'd say like those. The. Since those noodles are a little bit thinner, they're probably like a little easier for snacking than the thicker gauge noodles. So I'd probably stick to one of the classic packets. And. Yeah, actually from one of my book talks, I made the instant ramen snack mix using the noodles, and it was very popular.

Megan Scott (46:30)

That's a good idea. I. I'm one now. I'm like, oh, man, I'm gonna make that.

Peter Kim (46:35)

Yeah. And use the seasoning sachet. That's actually great seasoning powder to put into the mix. Yeah, it's. Yeah. You're getting all the salt and umami in there.

Megan Scott (46:42)

Yeah. Okay. I'm excited. Oh, I. I had one kind of related question. Do you ever have extra Seasoning packs left, and if so, what? Do you have any ideas for using them? Because I feel like occasionally I'll have a seasoning packet, and I could use it on popcorn or something, but any ideas would be appreciated.

Peter Kim (47:01)

Oh, yeah, yeah. I always have them extra ones, and I use it in the same way you would use Sasson or the same way you would use bouillon powder. And so if I'm just cooking and I happen to have a seasoning packet, like, lying around, instead of seasoning with salt, I'll just use that instead. Even in, like, a tomato sauce or whatever, it's just going to bring. I mean, it's one of those things where, like, when you add, you know, that sort of umami, these umami boosters, into anything, people are, like, often going to react with, like, that's, like, really good. Why? Just, like. Well, yeah, I just, like, you know, it's because there's a lot of umami, and I think it works great. So I think. Yeah. And it has, like, actually a lot of applicability. Again, like, in the same way that Sazona is, like, one of these things in, like, Latin cooking can be put in almost anything. And actually, like, Maggie Cube in, like, West Africa is used in almost everything. You can use these seasoning sachets and almost anything, and it's going to really amp up the deliciousness. Yeah.

Megan Scott (48:00)

And on that note, I wanted to announce this week's Joy Scouts recipe, which is maybe not in the same spirit that you developed recipes for this book, because it actually does take a long time to make. But I was thinking, when I was thinking, like, what would be good on ramen? I really want to try Cincinnati chili on top of ramen. So that's going to be our recipe of the week. It's on page 502, and I encourage everyone to serve it over ramen instead of spaghetti. And I think you should definitely put a pile of cheese on there. I would also add the seasoning packets to the chili. I think that will only improve. Oh, yeah, that will only improve it. Do you have feelings about Cincinnati chili? A lot of people do.

Peter Kim (48:42)

Wait, is that the chili where you can have it, like, three ways, five ways, seven ways? Yeah, yeah. No, I grew up with that. I grew up in the Midwest, so at the diners, you could get that. And I loved it. Yeah, it's great. And it's great for, like, entertaining because then you give people options, you know? Yeah. Love it.

Shannon Larson (48:56)

This is a pro Cincinnati chili podcast.

Megan Scott (48:58)

Yes.

Peter Kim (49:00)

Consider me on the team.

Megan Scott (49:02)

If you have A topic, ingredient, or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us a text. We would love to hear from you. Next week's topic comes from our caller.

Sarah Marshall (49:14)

Hello. This question's for the Joy of Cooking. I'm hosting a party and want to pre batch some cocktails so I can easily pour a balanced drink, perhaps with a fun garnish. Any suggestions? On a side note, I have a memory of my grandma and her sister drinking joy tea when they got together. They called it giggle Tea. Love the pod.

Megan Scott (49:36)

That's a really funny question. And joy tea, for those who don't know, is just like. It's just like sweet tea with vodka or just a tea with vodka in it?

Jon Becker (49:44)

Yeah, no, it's. It's been a while.

Peter Kim (49:45)

Or is it vodka with tea in it?

Megan Scott (49:47)

Right.

Peter Kim (49:47)

Yeah.

Megan Scott (49:48)

Yes.

Jon Becker (49:49)

Yeah, you gotta. The priorities are in that order.

Shannon Larson (49:52)

I love calling it giggle tea.

Jon Becker (49:54)

That's really good, actually.

Megan Scott (49:55)

That's very sweet. All right, what is everybody excited to cook or eat this week?

Shannon Larson (50:01)

We are going to a concert on Friday and so our usual thing is we go out to our favorite ramen spot in Portland before we go to shows, which is wurons here in Portland.

Megan Scott (50:11)

Still haven't been. I still have not been. I know.

Shannon Larson (50:13)

It's so good. It's so good. And their spicy chicken ramen is incredible. And it's actually really good spicy, which I love. So I'm really looking forward to that. And it's helped that we've been talking about ramen all night because now that's all I want.

Megan Scott (50:28)

Now you want it.

Shannon Larson (50:28)

Yes, I want it even more.

Megan Scott (50:31)

What about you, John?

Jon Becker (50:32)

We're making up some cheddar scallion biscuits and mimosa pound cake. And then I'm looking forward to a tomato orange soup. It's like this kind of classic Portland recipe from Elephants Deli. It's really good.

Megan Scott (50:48)

Yeah, that's a really good one. And we serve it with these little. It's like we mix white miso and softened butter and Dijon mustard and spread that on the toasts and then put cheese on and toast it. Excellent. Excellent pairing. I am going to be developing a sweet potato sonker recipe this week. A sonker is a dessert that is pretty niche to Surrey County, North Carolina. It's basically like a cobbler, but very. They're usually very juicy. So there's lots of fruit juice. But the sweet potato one, you basically like steam or boil the sweet potatoes and slice them and Then put them in a pie dish with, like, a molassesy syrup, and then bake it and serve it with something called milk dip, which is. It's like a thinner or a saucy vanilla pudding, essentially. So you pour that over the sauce.

Shannon Larson (51:40)

And that sounds great, but milk dip, I don't.

Megan Scott (51:42)

Yeah, milk. I don't know the naming, but it's, it's, it's very good. And I'm a big sweet potato person.

Shannon Larson (51:47)

It sounds like a good Thanksgiving.

Megan Scott (51:49)

Yeah. Treat. So. Yeah. So we'll see how that goes. It might take me a while. I've never, I've actually never cooked this, so I'm gonna have to figure it out. But that'll be fun. What about you, Peter?

Peter Kim (51:59)

I think Brussels sprouts are starting to come in this season. And so I really. If they are, and I'm gonna be looking at the farmer's market this weekend, then I think that'll be an exciting thing to get into. I just love roasting them at high heat and getting the, like, crispy chips that kind of, like, are at the edges. And it so happens that, like, my son loves Brussels sprouts, too. And so it's just. We really enjoy eating it. Yeah.

Megan Scott (52:21)

Fun.

Jon Becker (52:22)

Nice.

Megan Scott (52:23)

And before we wrap, where can listeners follow you?

Peter Kim (52:25)

Oh, yeah, Instagram. Peter J. Kim. Also on TikTok. Peter J. Kim. Yeah, those will be probably the best two spots. And then, yeah, following the infinite table. If you want to get updates on that.

Megan Scott (52:36)

Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram hejoyofcooking. Stay tuned for next week where we'll talk about batched cocktails. And don't forget to make this week's recipe Cincinnati chili on page 502. Call in with questions, hopes, history, or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

Shannon Larson (53:06)

And we could not do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation production house. Thank you to Dave Dresky, our production coordinator, Haley Bowers, our audio engineer, and Sarah Marshall, our producer.

Sarah Marshall (53:17)

If you love the stories we bring you each week, please consider supporting us on Patreon as an independent media company. Your support is absolutely essential. It allows us to continue creating high quality professional episodes that amplify the voices of women, small business owners, writers, artists and creatives and keep their stories free from commercial pressure. By becoming a Patreon member, you're not just supporting us, you're investing in the future of independent media. Please visit Patreon.com the Joy of Creation Production House to join our community today. Thank you for listening and supporting our podcast dreams.