Sarah Ahn: A Casual Culinary Chat About Caviar

Summary

The Joy of Cooking Podcast: Sarah Ahn – A Casual Culinary Chat About Caviar Release Date: May 30, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Joy of Cooking Podcast, hosted by Shannon Larson alongside co-authors Megan Scott and Jon Becker, the team welcomes Sarah Ahn, social media manager at America's Test Kitchen and creator of the website Honest Kitchen. The conversation centers around Sarah's culinary journey, her latest cookbook, and her insights into traditional Korean cooking. Throughout the episode, the hosts and Sarah delve into cherished recipes, cultural culinary practices, and the intricate process of developing a cookbook in collaboration with America's Test Kitchen.

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Weekly Cooking Updates

Shannon Larson kicks off the episode by sharing highlights from her recent Midwestern-themed birthday party, emphasizing the variety of dishes such as green bean casserole and deviled eggs:

• Shannon Larson [01:59]: "Let’s see. We threw our little, my little birthday party this past weekend and it was Midwestern themed and I think everybody did a great job bringing Midwestern dishes."

Megan Scott discusses her contributions, notably her mom's ramen cabbage salad, highlighting its simplicity and appeal to potluck gatherings:

• Megan Scott [04:07]: "You just take dry, you know, instant ramen noodles and break them up in the package, and then you toast them in a skillet..."

Jon Becker shares his recent culinary adventure with pork vindaloo, aloo gobi, rice, and naan, showcasing his appreciation for diverse carbohydrate combinations:

• Jon Becker [03:21]: "The other night we had pork vindaloo and aloo gobi and rice, and then also some naan. And the three carbs together, it's just a triple threat."

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Listener Spotlight: Recipe of Last Week

The hosts briefly revisit last week's featured recipe, roasted rhubarb compote, discussing its versatility and pairing with honey yogurt panna cotta:

• Megan Scott [05:08]: "It's a very simple dressing that has, you know, soy sauce and oil and a little sugar and the ramen seasoning."

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Introducing the Guest: Sarah Ahn

Megan Scott introduces Sarah Ahn, highlighting her role at America's Test Kitchen and her creation of Honest Kitchen, a platform that showcases Sarah's life with her Korean immigrant parents through engaging digital storytelling:

• Megan Scott [07:34]: "This week's guest is Sarah Ahn. Sarah is the social media manager at America's Test Kitchen and the creator of the website Honest Kitchen."

Sarah shares her background, emphasizing her mother's journey from Korea to the United States and the establishment of their Asian noodle restaurant:

• Sarah Ahn [08:42]: "My mother, Nam Soon An, immigrated to America in the 1990s with the hope of providing a better life for herself and her family."

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Main Discussion

Appreciation for Family and Cooking

Megan Scott expresses admiration for Sarah's Instagram content, which beautifully captures the essence of family and cooking:

• Megan Scott [08:43]: "Your videos are so beautiful. They make me hungry and they make me think about my own mother and my own experiences cooking..."

Sarah Ahn reflects on the growing appreciation for home-cooked meals as one matures:

• Sarah Ahn [09:17]: "Having the luxury of watching your mom cook is always a blessing that I think we realize as we get older."

Cultural Culinary Practices

The conversation explores traditional Korean cooking techniques and the significance of ingredients:

• Sarah Ahn [13:25]: "Kimchi jjigae is kimchi stew. That's what it is in English. That's my favorite recipe, actually, out of the book."

Sarah describes her mother's unique approach to making kimchi jigae with pork belly and butter, highlighting the fusion of traditional and innovative methods:

• Sarah Ahn [14:39]: "She learned that and then she adapted was inspired... very well known and loved mom and pop shop that has lines out the door were cooking the pork belly and butter."

Developing a Cookbook with America's Test Kitchen

Sarah Ahn details the rigorous process of developing her cookbook in collaboration with America's Test Kitchen (ATK), emphasizing the cultural adjustments required for recipe accuracy:

• Sarah Ahn [27:07]: "When developing this cookbook, ATK came over several times just to observe us, like how Koreans cook, what the Korean American working class is like."

She discusses the challenges of converting traditional Korean cooking methods, such as using measuring spoons, into standardized recipes suitable for a broader audience:

• Sarah Ahn [28:04]: "They would just, like, sit and just observe us... teaching her how to use a tablespoon of sugar."

Ingredient Choices and Their Impact

The episode delves into the importance of ingredient quality and brand selection in recipe success:

• Sarah Ahn [48:04]: "She used granulated sugar because she says this isn't the Chosun Dynasty... it's a flavor enhancer."

She shares an anecdote about a failed ingredient brand, emphasizing the critical role of specific ingredients in achieving desired flavors:

• Sarah Ahn [49:17]: "I cooked three meals with it and we had to throw it away because it was that terrible."

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Listener Questions and Highlights

Listener Appreciation: Caviar Preparation

A listener named Katie from Los Angeles shares her appreciation for the Joy of Cooking reference sections, specifically mentioning caviar preparation:

• Katie [Unknown Timestamp]: "I always try to reference the joy of cooking for preparation advice before going to the Internet... it's not really a question. I wanted to let you know how much I appreciate and use the reference parts of the cookbook."

Megan Scott acknowledges Katie’s feedback and transitions into a discussion about caviar in the Joy of Cooking cookbook:

• Megan Scott [40:15]: "Maybe this is something that would be interesting to talk about on the podcast."

Jon Becker elaborates on the history of caviar in the cookbook, noting updates to include sustainable sources:

• Jon Becker [41:01]: "The caviar section's been in the book since, like, the 1963 edition... we updated it to include more domestic sources, more sustainable sources of caviar."

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Recipe of the Week: Homemade Crème Fraîche

Megan Scott introduces this week's Joy Scouts recipe, highlighting the simplicity and cost-effectiveness of making homemade crème fraîche:

• Megan Scott [50:38]: "Our recipe of the week is homemade creme fraiche. It is on page 974... you really just need buttermilk or yogurt and heavy cream and just let it stir a spoonful of that in."

She shares tips on using crème fraîche in various dishes, such as ice cream and whipped cream:

• Megan Scott [51:50]: "It's extremely easy. And again, that's on page 974. If you're not sure how to use it, we have a few recipes that call for it."

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Closing Remarks

As the episode wraps up, the hosts discuss upcoming topics and share their cooking plans for the week. Sarah Ahn reveals her plans to make shikae, a Korean dessert drink, highlighting the cultural significance and refreshing qualities suitable for hot weather:

• Sarah Ahn [54:17]: "I want to make shikae, which is a Korean dessert drink. It's kind of like horchata, but a little different..."

The episode concludes with the hosts encouraging listeners to subscribe, leave reviews, and participate in future discussions:

• Megan Scott [55:22]: "Thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast... Stay tuned for next week where we will tackle pizza."

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Notable Quotes

• Megan Scott [08:43]: "Your videos are so beautiful. They make me hungry and they make me think about my own mother and my own experiences cooking..."

• Sarah Ahn [09:17]: "Having the luxury of watching your mom cook is always a blessing that I think we realize as we get older."

• Sarah Ahn [28:04]: "She uses granulated sugar because she says this isn't the Chosun Dynasty... it's a flavor enhancer."

• Jon Becker [41:01]: "The caviar section's been in the book since, like, the 1963 edition... we updated it to include more domestic sources, more sustainable sources of caviar."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Joy of Cooking Podcast offers a heartfelt exploration of Sarah Ahn's culinary heritage, her collaborative work on a cookbook with America's Test Kitchen, and the intricate balance between tradition and adaptation in cooking. Listeners gain valuable insights into Korean cooking techniques, the significance of ingredient selection, and the meticulous process behind crafting a comprehensive cookbook. The engaging dialogue, enriched with personal anecdotes and professional experiences, makes this episode a delightful listen for culinary enthusiasts seeking both inspiration and practical knowledge.

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Follow Sarah Ahn:

• Instagram & TikTok: @honest.AhnestKitchen

Contact the Podcast:

• Hotline: [phone]
• Website: joyofcooking.substack.com
• Instagram: @hejoyofcooking

Special Thanks:

• Production Team: Dave Dresky, Haley Bowers, and Sarah Marshall of the Joy of Creation Production House.

Transcript

[Sarah Ahn]

Sa.

[Shannon Larson]

Welcome to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Each week we set the table for discussion about recipes and stories from the authors of the Joy of Cooking, kitchen victories and misadventures, and most importantly, what we are cooking and eating right now. We're glad you've joined us at the table today. I'm Shannon Larson, home cook, Joy of Cooking user and fan and pickle juice enthusiastic.

[Megan Scott]

I'm Megan Scott, co Author of the 2019 edition of the Joy of Cooking. I'm a food editor by day and avoider of dish duty by night. And I have strong intrusive thoughts whenever I have to prep cheese for a recipe.

[Shannon Larson]

We're going to get into that later.

[Jon Becker]

I'm Jon Becker, 4th Generation Co author and steward of the Joy of Cooking, America's oldest family run cookbook. And I think there's something very special about a meal that has several different forms of carbs.

[Megan Scott]

Strong. I agree.

[Jon Becker]

The other night we had pork vindaloo and aloo, gobi and rice, and then also some naan. And the three carbs together, it's just a triple threat.

[Megan Scott]

I support it. It's excellent. Yeah, it's a fine way to eat. I will explain my intro.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, I'm so curious.

[Megan Scott]

It's just that the cheese is right there, you know, it's just right there. You're cutting it, you're grating it. Whatever you're doing with it, it's just right there for the taking.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah. You know, all of a sudden you're not hungry for whatever.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, exactly. What have you been cooking this week, Shannon?

[Shannon Larson]

Let's see. We threw our little, my little birthday party this past weekend and it was Midwestern themed and I think everybody did a great job bringing Midwestern dishes. There was green bean casserole, there were Polish roses. It was really fun and silly and I think people got into it usually. I feel like our parties have kind of elevated food and it was fun to not do that. This time around, I'm going to do that more often.

[Megan Scott]

Did you have a favorite dish that someone brought?

[Shannon Larson]

I have to say it was probably the deviled eggs, but that's just like one of my favorite foods.

[Megan Scott]

That is a top tier food, regardless of a party or Midwestern theme. Whatever. It's. Those are just excellent.

[Shannon Larson]

They're so fun.

[Jon Becker]

And yet it is not something you just make.

[Shannon Larson]

No.

[Jon Becker]

Casually.

[Megan Scott]

No, no.

[Shannon Larson]

But I should. I should. And then it's officially larb season in our house. It tends to be like a warm weather dish that we make and we have so much lettuce Right now. So we put some larb together last night, and it just. It was so good. So much.

[Megan Scott]

You put mint in there?

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, mint from the garden. Like, everything. Like, a ton of stuff from the garden. Finally, we can actually put meals together using mostly vegetables from.

[Megan Scott]

So nice to just go out and.

[Shannon Larson]

Pick stuff and it's fun.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah. What about you, too?

[Jon Becker]

The pork vendaloo was really good. That was, like, kind of. We kind of cheated on that because, you know, typically it gets marinated for a while and there's a slow simmer.

[Megan Scott]

Involved, but instead, we did not plan ahead.

[Jon Becker]

So. Yeah, it was just browned the pork, and then instead of, you know, usually, like, the marinade's getting browned on there as well. So instead I just fried the marinade mixture, like the paste in the pork fat that was rendered, and then threw it into a pressure cooker, and it was done in no time.

[Megan Scott]

And that was a Ragavan Ayer recipe, right?

[Jon Becker]

Right. Yeah. He has three different recipes for vindaloo in the 660 curries book that's been around for a while. It's a wonderful book.

[Megan Scott]

Great recipe, too. It turned out really well. Yeah, I loved it with. With the multiple carbs. Highly recommend. I really loved making. So for your birthday party, your Midwestern potluck, I made my mom's ramen cabbage salad.

[Shannon Larson]

Gosh, it's so good.

[Megan Scott]

Which I feel like every time I bring this up to other people, they're like, oh, I remember this salad. My mom used to. Or my grandma used to make it. So maybe this will not be a surprise to anyone, but you just take dry, you know, instant ramen noodles and break them up in the package, and then you toast them in a skillet, and you toast sesame seeds and almonds, and then reserve the seasoning packets and put that in the. There's a very. It's a very simple dressing that has, you know, soy sauce and oil and a little sugar and the ramen seasoning. And then you just use a package of coleslaw mix. So, like, shredded cabbage, and just mix it all together, and it's just a delightful. It's very crunchy. And I feel like most potlucks need, like, a good crunchy salad. And so I feel like it's a good addition to any gathering.

[Shannon Larson]

It's fun to eat, and it's probably the healthier option out of everything else that people brought, probably.

[Megan Scott]

Although, I mean, not. You're not eating for health.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. The.

[Megan Scott]

Let's be real.

[Jon Becker]

The fried noodle salad was that is.

[Shannon Larson]

The healthiest thing that was on that table for real.

[Megan Scott]

And I just wanted to circle back on our recipe of the week from last week, which was roasted rhubarb on page 195. And John, do you want to talk a little about how we used it? I think I mentioned it last time, but we'll go over it again.

[Jon Becker]

Sure. Yeah. I mean, we chopped it up a little bit, but it was still pretty chunky and just used it as a compote type topping for honey yogurt Panna.

[Megan Scott]

Cotta, which is also another. That's another Joy recipe that I highly recommend. And it's super, super easy. It's basically just stirring some things together and heating it until the gelatin melts and then letting it sit.

[Shannon Larson]

Did I see somebody made something and you reposted it on Instagram too?

[Megan Scott]

Oh yeah. Somebody made the pan banya.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh yeah. And they like pressed it. Oh, that's what it was. That was cool.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that was fun to see.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, it's fun to see the, the other people cooking these recipes and they post. I love it.

[Megan Scott]

Check out the Joy of Cooking to see. We'll repost it or we'll save the. We'll do. We should do a highlight.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, you should.

[Megan Scott]

Highlight of people cooking our recipes.

[Jon Becker]

Good idea.

[Shannon Larson]

Get on it.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, get on it, John.

[Jon Becker]

Put it on the list.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, hello. I just wanted to take a moment to tell you about an easy way to enhance your meals. Whether they are a healthy vegan grain bowl or that late night snack we'll pretend didn't happen the next day. And that easy way is Marshall's haute sauce. For 15 years, chef and cookbook author Sarah Marshall has been hand making and bottling these delicious sauces. She works directly with local farmers and highlights the lovely flavors of fresh seasonal produce. They're gluten free. There are no additives, dyes, waxes or binders. And they have mouth watering combinations like serrano ginger, lemongrass or habanero carrot curry or even whiskey smoked ghost, which was featured on Hot Ones. So head on over to marshallshot sauce.com that's Marshall's H A U T E S a u c e.com and see all the available sauces and spice blends. Oh, that's right. Sarah's created spice packets by dehydrating and freeze drying actual produce so you can impart flavor to your food with more vegetables. But that's a story for another day. Find all of these delicious [e-mail] and enter haute joy that's one word. Capital H, A, U, T, E, capital j, o, y. One word at checkout for 20% off. That's haute joy at checkout for 20% off. And now back to the show.

[Megan Scott]

So this week's guest is Sarah Ahn. Sarah is the social media manager at America's Test Kitchen and the creator of the website Honest Kitchen. On Instagram and TikTok, she brings her digital storytelling prowess to recording her experiences living at home with her Korean immigrant parents, chronicling her mother's cooking, grocery shopping trips, and other everyday moments, accompanied by Sarah's personal reflections that are by turns touching, funny, and deeply moving. She has been featured on NBC News, ABC News, Yahoo News, and Good Morning America. And her mother, Nam soon an, immigrated to America in the 1990s with the hope of providing a better life for herself and her family. After finding her footing through various challenges and successes, she purchased a restaurant specializing in Asian noodle dishes in 2008 and successfully operated it for nearly a decade. Her philosophy on cooking and eating foods is to make them as delicious as possible and asserting that there are no inherently bad ingredients or foods. They're all meant to be enjoyed. So cook without fear and enjoy food with excitement, love, and the same feelings of returning to your childhood favorite restaurant. Sarah, welcome to the podcast.

[Sarah Ahn]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Megan Scott]

It's great to have you here. I've been following you for a while on Instagram, and I think you're my favorite person on the entire app because your videos, they're beautiful. Your videos are so beautiful. They. They make me hungry and they make me think about my own mother and my own experiences cooking and watching my mom cook and make me feel so grateful to have that experience. And also just I love watching you and your mom, and she seems absolutely lovely. So thank you so much for all of the work you do on that. You must put a ton of work into that.

[Sarah Ahn]

Thank you. Yeah. Having the luxury of watching your mom cook is always a blessing that I think we realize as we get older. And I've met people on my book tour. It seems like it's something we realize as we age into our 30s. I think when we hit around 25, we realize, oh, my gosh, this home food made by mom or whoever is a parent figure to us is actual real luxury. So thank you.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I think you're right about that. I mean, I appreciated my mother's cooking growing up, but. But in a superficial way, I guess. And then as I got older, I was like, oh, she is working so Hard to make all this food for her family almost every day. It's just a tremendous. It's a tremendous amount of work. But also the love that she put into it feels more palpable as you get older.

[Sarah Ahn]

It does, yeah. I'm still learning more about it as I'm. I'm 29. I'll be 30 this year, and I'm just like. It just. It's. It grows more and more each year.

[Megan Scott]

How are you doing on. I know you're probably still on book tour, right?

[Sarah Ahn]

I have one more event.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, nice.

[Sarah Ahn]

Congratulations. I have one more event. I was in Oregon for a bit, and that was really fun, by the way. But it's just been such a blessing to meet everyone because when you're only on the digital space and so secluded to just working at your desk writing this book, it feels so surreal and then so real to actually meet people physically. And it was such a blessing to just hear everyone's stories and have people relate to us and vice versa.

[Megan Scott]

How have you been. How have you been feeding yourself on book tour? It can be kind of intense.

[Sarah Ahn]

A lot of uber eats, and we ate a lot of Korean food when we were developing this book. So I'll admit I sometimes didn't crave Korean food. That's just me being very honest. But I'm slowly getting out of that and getting back into Korean food.

[Megan Scott]

I loved the video you did of you and your mother prepping your dog's food for your book tour. I just thought that was the sweetest thing.

[Sarah Ahn]

Yeah. I'm watching her outside. She's. That's why my eyes sometimes go off the screen, because I'm watching her. She's sitting in the yard right now sunbathing.

[Megan Scott]

What a life.

[Sarah Ahn]

I know. So rough.

[Shannon Larson]

Your dog eats so well. I was like, oh, my gosh, that's better than I feed myself sometimes.

[Megan Scott]

I know same.

[Sarah Ahn]

And I think it goes to show, like, especially with Asian culture, we don't say I love you or my parents generation. They don't say I love you. When we finished this book, I asked my mom, should we hug? And she's like, no, I'm not going to hug. Express it through food, whether it's for their family, their loved ones, and that includes our dog.

[Megan Scott]

I love that kind of acts of service. You can feel the love even though it's not said.

[Sarah Ahn]

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

[Megan Scott]

We cooked several things from Uma, your cookbook, last night for dinner, and everything was incredible. We did the kimchi jigga and the cilantro and Radish. Kimchi.

[Sarah Ahn]

Kimchi, yep.

[Megan Scott]

And the. The broccoli tofu banchan also. And I really loved. I had never had that one before.

[Sarah Ahn]

That one's a unique one. Not super unique, but it's very niche to what Korean Koreans eat. And it hasn't really made its way to American blogs just yet, but that's quite an impressive meal.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it was. I mean, I feel like the kimchi jiga was very quick to put together.

[Sarah Ahn]

Yeah, it seemed mix and heat.

[Megan Scott]

Mm.

[Sarah Ahn]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. Everything was really convenient considering that it was. Making a few banchan definitely was easy on the prep.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. But everything was delicious. And I. Please tell your mother we loved all the recipes.

[Sarah Ahn]

I will. She'll be very happy.

[Megan Scott]

Thank you.

[Sarah Ahn]

Kimchi jjigae is kimchi stew. That's what it is in English. That's my favorite recipe, actually, out of the book.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, really?

[Sarah Ahn]

It's a very nostalgic recipe that Korean moms make when we return home from college or wherever you went. And it's something that I personally don't find at restaurants much. So it's very homey, it's very motherly, and it's a very nostalgic recipe for a lot of us.

[Megan Scott]

Are there other variations of that recipe that your mother makes or that you make? Like this one, the one in the book. It has Spam. It has some pork belly cut up beef hot dogs in it. Are there other, like, variations that you do on that recipe?

[Sarah Ahn]

No, that one, we make it simply like that. And that kimchi jiggae recipe is actually very unique because my mom, as you guys cooked it, cooks the pork belly with butter, right? Yeah, yeah. And a lot of people were wondering, why would you cook such a fatty meat in butter? But my mom did a lot of research when developing this recipe of how she can make it so delicious. And she was looking up what mom and pop shops in Korea were doing. The very successful mom and pop shops, not the fancy Michelin restaurants, because this is a home cook cookbook. So she did a lot of, like, deep, deep research of what, you know, the Korean food bloggers were writing about. Not the stuff you find online from tourists, but what the Koreans are actually enjoying. And this very, very well known and loved mom and pop shop that has lines out the door were cooking the pork belly and butter.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, wow.

[Sarah Ahn]

And so she learned that and then she Adapte was inspired. I wish I knew the restaurant name. Unfortunately, I don't have it noted in my head right now. And that's kind of her own spin on Kimchi jigae, where, if you noticed it wasn't like a buttery stew where it was so heavy on the fatness, it should have just been a hint, just a very small hint of creaminess that complemented the savory pork belly fattiness.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. And it definitely helps the pork belly brown a little bit. You know, you have those. The kind of brown butter note.

[Megan Scott]

It was really nice.

[Sarah Ahn]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Smelled really good.

[Sarah Ahn]

Yeah. And also wanted to know. My mom's favorite recipe is the cilantro kimchi. So I just find it interesting. You made both our favorite recipes.

[Megan Scott]

That was a really interesting recipe to me because I don't think I had really encountered cilantro in much, if any Korean cooking before. And you kind of speak to that in the headnote. Could you tell us a little bit about that recipe?

[Sarah Ahn]

Yeah. So that's actually a very, very unique recipe. When I first shared it in 2022, I believe you could find it nowhere, even on Korean blogs and websites now. You could find it on Korean. Korean websites, the blogs there. But you still can't find it on Korean American websites here. And the reason for that is because that recipe originates from Northern Korea, and Northern Korea borders China. And Chinese cuisine, as we may know, uses cilantro throughout different regions. So it makes sense that the bordering country, Northern Korea, would have a liking towards cilantro. But South Korea, my dad's South Korean. They. I'm speaking, I'm generalizing, but they don't like cilantro. And you can generalize them enough to the point where finding cilantro in South Korea is kind of hard, but Northern Koreans like it. And so my mom's mom is from Northern Korea. I say northern Korea because back then Korea still wasn't split. And that's something that they ate all the time. And so my mom grew up eating that and watching her, the mothers and the moms and the women make that as they made other kimchi together. And it's something that she learned to make, and it's been passed on, and it's become a bit more popular with South Koreans as they're liking cilantro a bit more.

[Megan Scott]

I'm glad to hear that. I love cilantro personally.

[Sarah Ahn]

It's a shame if someone didn't get that DNA.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I know.

[Jon Becker]

Still trying to convert my father. I guess it skipped a generation.

[Megan Scott]

Never going to happen. Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah. I don't try very hard. Not anymore. He's set in his ways.

[Megan Scott]

What made you decide initially to write this book with your mom?

[Sarah Ahn]

There's multiple Reasons why? The first reason, it's the obvious one. I think especially as an immigrant and as a Korean American, I realized with my language, I'm not fluent in Korean. And if I were to continue on with life and have kids, should I want kids, they're going to be unable to speak Korean because I can't teach to them. And if they're not going to be able to speak it, their kids won't be able to. Five generations later, I don't know what Korean American will look like, what it means to be Korean American. And that very much applies to food as well. If we don't learn these kimchi recipes now, where just my mom's generation, they were making it to get through the harsh winter months post war and poverty. Because, because Korea, I don't think people realize this. Like kimchi is not a food that is just trendy. It's the one food that Koreans could only afford to eat. Up until the 1980s. That's how long Korea was poor for Korea didn't really prosper after that when they had the Olympics event there. That's when Korea started to boom economically and become a bit more independent in the 1980s.

[Megan Scott]

It's not that far now, not a long time.

[Sarah Ahn]

It's very recent. So I think people often forget that Korea just one generation ago, we were very poor. And these recipes have so much significance, but people are only seeing the K pop, the K skincare and whatnot. And I just thought it was so important to collect these recipes and honor them from people who watched their parents and ancestors make it before cookbooks were a thing. And so I wanted someone who looked like my mom to make a recipe book. I wanted to make this with her. And that's why the front cover, we're very deliberate with what we were showing a Korean mom to kind of capture the type of cooking you'll get with this book. And the second reason is it was just an outlet for me. When I graduated college, I got my first full time job. It wasn't in the food space because I work full time in the food space now. I just needed an outlet and it was just therapy. Learning to cook and seeing my mom cook. So that's one reason why I also.

[Shannon Larson]

Love on your Instagram page that you cook in your mom's kitchen and it's not staged at all. It's just. It's like a normal family kitchen, which I really appreciate sometimes, you know, sometimes those cooking videos can feel very, very staged. And it's nice to see something a little bit Different.

[Sarah Ahn]

I will say my mom hates her kitchen. Oh, no. It's a very imperfect but perfect kitchen in that it's so homey. It's. It's for the kitchen we grew up with since I was five years old. But it's very lopsided. Like, if you put a marble on our counter, it's going to slide right. It's going to roll right off.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, wow.

[Sarah Ahn]

My mom so wishes she had a gas stove because she used to cook for a living, and so she's used to the fire, and she says it flavors the food differently, but our house can't support a gas stove. As. As a cook, it's. It's her nightmare. But as a home, it is. It is. A piece of her heart is definitely in there.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Did you talk with her at all about, you know, when she moved to the United States and then as she, you know, became like a restaurant owner, was there anything about her traditional recipes that she would make that changed due to not having the ingredients maybe she had in Korea or just learning things in a restaurant setting that you applied in this book?

[Sarah Ahn]

Definitely. Two things, I think. The first is my mom's cooking philosophy when it comes to cooking is that you have to adapt to wherever you are. So for her, like, she's not going to say you have to use Korean soy sauce. In fact, in our book, she says, are my favorites, Kikko man. Regular soy sauce. Don't use the one that uses less sodium, and that's a Japanese brand. And a lot of Koreans will say you have to use dark soy sauce for the soups. You have to use light soy sauce for this. And my mom's like, it barely makes a difference. Just use Kikoman. And then she also uses three crab fish sauce. Yeah, it's. I mean, just objectively speaking, it's the best fish sauce, and that's commonly used in Vietnamese cuisine. And so my mom adapts to what's available and is very open minded to other ingredients, and that's her philosophy. And one criticism that we get, especially from Koreans, I think when it comes to any ethnic cuisine, the criticisms you get the most are people who are most familiar with it. So it makes sense that Koreans would criticize it, but they're saying, oh, yeah, the honest kitchen. She uses sugar in almost every recipe. But Koreans don't traditionally use sugar. My mom's like, Girl, it's 2025. Why would I not be using sugar? Sugar? Because the thing is, sugar didn't become available to Koreans, like, widely available until the 1950s. Because again, Korean was. Korea was very poor. And so they would use plum extract syrup. So my mom uses plum extract syrup for that multidimensional sweetness. But she also uses granulated sugar because she says this isn't the Chosun Dynasty. And she says also sugar isn't like people don't understand, sugar isn't used to add to sweetness. It's a flavor enhancer. So she'll use like a quarter teaspoon or eighth teaspoon of it. But some people don't understand it's not to add sweetness.

[Megan Scott]

Right.

[Sarah Ahn]

So she's very, very open minded. There's no bad ingredients. We openly use msg. There's a whole page on there discussing my disdain towards people who have a problem with it if it's not health related. And quite frankly speaking, I don't know anyone that has health issues with msg.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, no, neither do we. We have a little jar of it next to our stove where the salt is.

[Sarah Ahn]

It's amazing. Yeah. Ajimoto is the best.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Sarah Ahn]

And then my mom's other take on restaurant cooking that's different from this cookbook is that when she owned a restaurant, she had to cook for survival. No one wants to own a restaurant. It breaks apart your family. And she had to make foods to make sure that people wanted to come back versus foods made for this cookbook. And at home, it's just purely made with love.

[Megan Scott]

What you said about adding sugar to recipes reminded me a lot of my great grandmother who would often add just a little bit of sugar, probably like a quarter, half teaspoon to almost everything, to just add a little bit of everything, from her green beans to pimento cheese. I'm from the south, so a lot of southern foods, but she would add just a little pin pinch of sugar to everything. And it is. It's just about balance. It's not to make it taste sweet. Just the same way you would add salt and it brings out other flavors. That adding a little bit of sugar just really balances everything out.

[Sarah Ahn]

And was her food amazing.

[Megan Scott]

She was a very good cook.

[Sarah Ahn]

Yeah, exactly. Because she added that sugar and she made those ingredients.

[Megan Scott]

I also was thinking a lot about my great grandmother reading your book because you talk about sanmat. Would you talk a little bit about that for listeners about the concept of like, just knowing how to cook something by feel or like it's in your hands.

[Sarah Ahn]

Yeah. So. So is hand in Korean, and mat is taste or flavor. So we have a recipe in there called mat Kimchi. It means like very good flavored kimchi but seonmat basically is someone's innate ability to make food taste amazing. It's someone's talent that's just unexplainable. And I always tell people, you give two people the same recipe, the person with seonma is going to make it better even if they follow the recipe exactly how it says it should be followed. And I have a great example. I just made kimchi for my mom on Mother's Day.

[Megan Scott]

Oh my God.

[Sarah Ahn]

I followed the recipe exactly. In fact, our cookbook recipe. But I was recording myself too. So I think this is maybe why I was making content with it. So I had to mix it for quite a bit to get the right shots. And then in the end I was like, oh, this doesn't taste right. Oh no. Because I had over mixed it and I didn't realize it. And then my mom made kimchi just this past weekend. Again, same exact recipe. And it was the recipe that we created together that's perfected. And when you have son Ma, what happened in her recipe when she was making it is they understand and respect every ingredient when they're being mixed together, where they understand, like how to dance with the ingredients. And when you make kimchi, you have to mix it just right so that you don't over mix it. And then it causes the napa cabbage to secrete water and dilutes the seasoning. But it's very, very precise. And I tried to mimic her movements of how she mixes it and I couldn't do it. But all of that dance and when to lift up the fingers and put pressure on it, even like the order of ingredients she puts it in, how she spreads it out, it's all derived from seonmat. And that's kind of the secret talent you need to make a great recipe.

[Megan Scott]

I watched the video you're talking about of your mother making the kimchi and how she puts the giant bowl on the floor and squats down to really get, get in there. Because I mean, the countertop is just, I mean, even for me, it's standing at the counter. Sometimes it's a little bit much, but I just love that, you know, she'll put like a big a towel down on the floor and just get right down there and get in there.

[Sarah Ahn]

It's beautiful. I think, because that's how my ancestors and my grandma made it. When women would come together to make kimchi, all the women, and it's a really Korean cuisine with many cuisines, it's founded by the women. And I never want to forget that and they would all squat and make 200 to 300 batches of kimchi for their family to survive those winter months. And I think it's just so beautiful how that passes down. And that imagery of my mom in the kitchen squatting, it's not intentional to be beautiful or poetic, but in a way, it is. I love capturing those moments because I can't squat like that. I think it's the American side, because I know Koreans can do it in Korea, like little kids can do it. So there's a lot of thoughts that come with seeing that image.

[Jon Becker]

I did have a question about the differences between your mother's kitchen, your family's kitchen, and America's test kitchen and developing this cookbook. And I was just kind of curious how that played out. Did you guys send recipes to them? And then they tried to test them as. As you wrote them. And then, you know, there was there, like, a feedback type situation, or it.

[Sarah Ahn]

Was very rigorous because that's America's test kitchen. So I work there full time for people who may not know, but I work on the marketing side. But this cookbook was a complete different project, like, completely separate thing. So my mom developed all the recipes, and atk, America's Test Kitchen for short, they wanted to honor these recipes as authentically as they could to. For my. So it followed whatever my mom did. So my mom would develop a recipe. It could take her days to few weeks to write a recipe, and then she would teach it to me. And then I. I don't know if you guys know this, but I don't know if, you know, Made with Lao. He is a Chinese YouTuber. We were talking, and because Asians don't really measure, they kind of throw things by the handful. So we had to teach my mom how to use measuring spoons. ATK came over several times just to observe us, like how Koreans cook, what the Korean American working class is like. So they would just, like, sit and just observe us. And they had to teach my mom how to use measuring spoons, because my mom was just like, what are these little blue toys? And they're teaching her how to do a tablespoon of sugar. And so then my mom tried it, and then she would do a heaping tablespoon, and we'd be like, no, no, no. That's a heaping tablespoon. We need exactly one tablespoon for the cookbook. And then our food editor from Atkins, he grabbed a butter knife and showed her how to level it. And she was like, are you serious? Like, this is what you guys do. Like this. This is ridiculous. So there is some cultural differences there where we had to do that. And that's why in the book, there's grams, because one small carrot can mean anything. And it's just ridiculous that America is one of three countries that uses volume measurements. So we had a teach her those things. And then when she developed the recipe, ATK came over several times. I had to watch her and write the recipe so I could turn it in for atk. And I did video tutorials for each. Because sometimes those measurements, even though I wrote it, they're very quick. Like, these Asian cooks are very quick with their handfuls and whatnot. So I'd create tutorials for every recipe. Then I sent it to atk. And then ATK cooks who are former Michelin chefs, came out of culinary school and have their own experience, would test the recipe to vet for it to see if there's any issues. We didn't have any issues. And then they would polish it up so that it's formally written with our food editor and our ATK editor. And then they sent it back to me, and they said, now, Sarah, you test these recipes because you're more of a home cook. They're professional cooks. My mom's a former professional cook. And they said, I want you to test it out so we can vet that a home cook can do it. So that I had to test it all out if there was any issues with their language, then I sent it back to them, and that's what landed in the book.

[Megan Scott]

Did you. Did you have your mom taste everything you made to make sure it was right?

[Sarah Ahn]

Yeah, she was there by my side for every single recipe. I had, like, one and a half months to test, like, over 100 recipes.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, my God.

[Sarah Ahn]

So it was just. It was traumatizing.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I believe it.

[Sarah Ahn]

Because cookbooks, you usually have one to three years to develop it. One's on the short end of the stick. Three years is kind of long. I think two years is kind of the sweet spot. But we had exactly one year.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, my gosh.

[Megan Scott]

And that's. That is not a very, you know, a year sounds like a long time, but it's really not. It's really not.

[Sarah Ahn]

No. I think, like. Like, I'm not trying to boast or anything, but if you look at our cookbook, those pages are like. I wish the font size was a bit bigger. Cause it's packed.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it is packed. It's packed. Full of good stuff. I have kind of a niche question about so there was a headnote. I don't remember what recipe that this was a head note before. But you mentioned something about your mom's 900 calorie shake that she drinks every day.

[Sarah Ahn]

Oh, that's the acorn jelly recipe.

[Megan Scott]

Oh, the acorn jelly. So yeah, I was gonna ask like, what, what does she put in there?

[Sarah Ahn]

So my mom's a very efficient person. She wakes up every day at 4:30. She cooks for my dad because my dad does not have time to cook. He works as an exterior painter, which is someone who paints the outside of buildings and apartments. And so she needs a lot of energy because she's literally cooking all day and, and kind of running the show in our home. But her 900 calorie drink is a drink that she consumes to get all her nutrition for that day. And then after that she eats whatever she wants. Mainly like Korean ramen and just whatever she wants. It's all about balance. But in that drink, it's like whole milk, few scoops of almond protein powder, a few tablespoons of olive oil. And then she grinds up her nuts because she says it's too tiring to chew them. And then she dumps it in there as like a nut powder, some chia seeds, and like other things where she gets all her nutritional needs in one go.

[Megan Scott]

I love that. It's so. I feel like that's really smart. And yeah, you gotta fuel. If you're getting up at 4:30 and then cooking a lot of food first thing, you've gotta really like fuel first thing in the morning.

[Shannon Larson]

I love those videos of her packing your dad's lunch and everything before he goes off to work. I just think that I went on, I just like watched so many of them the other night.

[Megan Scott]

They're really beautiful.

[Shannon Larson]

They're so beautiful. And the care that she takes to package everything and like cut things. Like she always cuts the eggs so it's easier for him to eat them when he's like on site. Also, dad is absolutely adorable. He just is so funny. Every time he goes into the kitchen, he's just like smiling. I like when he.

[Sarah Ahn]

He's a really pure person. My parents are. I always tell people they're great parents, but they're also great human beings. And I think I really wanted to portray that in the book where like the working class people are also seen as well. So I think a lot of these books I've learned when there's any like, creative freedom to make these things, it's not usually for the working class. And so, for me, I really wanted to honor that background because they make up the majority of America. I'm a proud daughter of my parents, and food is a huge, huge part of what rejoices us together after a long day of work. And it's what we use to, you know, have a roof over our heads. So all of that is honored in the book.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, it really. It comes through really well. You did a. You and your mother did a really beautiful job.

[Sarah Ahn]

Thank you.

[Jon Becker]

Now that the book is out there in the world, are the measuring spoons, like, gathering dust or.

[Sarah Ahn]

She does use them, actually. It's really funny. We still use them for. Because, like, it's. It's so nice because when you actually collect your family's recipes, as you guys might know, it's nice because you get consistent recipes that turn out good all the time and you don't have to freehand it. So she does use it for a lot of the recipes where it's like, yeah, I'm not going to freehand it. I'm going to use this quarter teaspoon, one tablespoon and whatnot. But she does freehand some of the other recipes that just. She just would rather freehand it and not do dishes.

[Jon Becker]

No, it's. That's true. I mean, I. I feel like we. We cook our own recipes, like, from the book, and it's kind of like we get to turn our brains off a little bit.

[Megan Scott]

You mean measuring.

[Sarah Ahn]

That's exactly.

[Megan Scott]

Properly.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

You guys use your book all the time. Like, you just had to replace the copy that you had in your kitchen. Right. Because it was.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Well, it's kind of like you feel like you're retesting things, you know, to make sure that, oh, maybe this could be a little better. Or actually, I think that we should do a tablespoon and a half in this. You know, we're always retesting.

[Sarah Ahn]

That would still traumatize me if, like, I thought, like, oh, I should have done two tablespoons instead of one. I don't know how, you guys. I don't have that freedom yet to think, like, that.

[Megan Scott]

John is always, like, I don't know. I feel like we differ. I'm always of the opinion, like, everything can always be made slightly better. So when something's not perfect, that's just how. That's just how life is. Like, nothing is ever going to be perfect. But when we find something that could have been better, John is like, oh, maybe we can get this into the next project printing. Maybe we can.

[Shannon Larson]

It Is so not surprising.

[Megan Scott]

So when. For listeners who may not know, like when you. When you have a cookbook, when you print a cookbook and you want to make changes, maybe you find an error, like, errors happen, spelling errors, grammatical errors, whatever. You can't just make these changes because it's a printed thing. So you can't change the page, the pagination, the page numbers. So sometimes you can get corrections in if you tweak the wording or you take out a word to add another one. So you have to be really strategic about corrections, but it's a complicated process.

[Jon Becker]

Well, yeah, especially with Joy, just because. Because there's not a lot of white space in the book to play with. So, yeah, you end up having to do kind of a Tetris type maneuver when you want to correct something. Bigger the correction, the more difficult it is. And maybe you have to rephrase something in another recipe in order to make room on the page. But, yeah, I would imagine that, I mean, if you were to find something you want to change in the book, it might be a little bit easier for you than it is just because, I mean, definitely have some white space to work with. Maybe. Yeah, maybe.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, a little bit. Although not. Not a ton. I'm.

[Jon Becker]

I mean, you guys. You guys really did pack it full of some. I mean, the head notes are beautiful.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, there's lovely head notes, and then there's some kitchen. I love these little kitchen conversations.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, I love those.

[Megan Scott]

Talking to your mom and just kind of. It's like a mini conversation in the recipe about. About the recipe. And, you know, sometimes you have differing opinions on. On something which feels very relatable.

[Sarah Ahn]

The kitchen conversations. I really wanted them to cover the questions I had because other people might have them. And also the stories, too. I really wanted to cover stories that. That honors Korea's history, but also the modern day of the working class and sharing the richness in the ordinary. But all the stories, too. If a problem is presented, it always resolves with a happy ending or a thing that makes you think a bit more.

[Megan Scott]

So something we ask every guest is, what is your relationship to Joy of Cooking? Is it a cookbook that you probably not grew up with, but that. When did you become aware of it?

[Sarah Ahn]

I think it's a cookbook. Everyone knows, right? So it's a cookbook that. I think if someone needs to think of a cookbook, it's one of the things that comes first to mind, and it's probably the one that everyone has in their shelf, on their shelf. And so for me, it's something that I've always been familiar with and grew up with. And so it's an honor to talk with you guys. One of the most well known and original cookbooks and I think there's a lot to learn as well.

[Megan Scott]

Well, we feel the same way about talking to you. It feels like such an honor to have you on the, on the show and to talk about your beautiful book because it's just, it's really special. I, I got a copy of it for my mom for Mother's Day and I'm hoping that we can cook through some of the recipes together and talk about them. But yeah, it's, it's just very special like the stories are. I feel like I've learned a lot and also just really love the, the way you talk about your family and the honor that you have or that you show to your family and it's just feels very genuine and, and lovely and not, not staged, you know, like our kitchen.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sarah Ahn]

Thank you so much. Thank you.

[Unknown]

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[Megan Scott]

And so now we'll get into our listener question of the week. And Sarah, you are welcome to. We're going to chat a bit, but you are absolutely welcome to provide your opinions here as well. Sarah, can you other. Sarah, can you play the clip?

[Unknown]

I wanted to stay in on my birthday this year and decided to purchase a good caviar for the occasion. I knew how I wanted to prepare it, but I didn't know how to take care of it once it arrived and what to do on the day I wanted to serve it. I always try to reference the joy of cooking for preparation advice before going to the Internet. So I looked up caviar and I was surprised to learn that you should not use metal utensils when scooping it, which is something I would definitely have done without consulting Joy. Well, it's not really a question. I wanted to let you know how much I appreciate and use the reference parts of the cookbook. Maybe this is something that would be interesting to talk about on the podcast. Thanks so much. I love the show. Katie in Los Angeles.

[Megan Scott]

Thanks for that, Katie. And, yeah, so I think last week we. We said that our topic was going to be caviar, but we kind of talked about it, and I think we were more interested in talking about the. The reference material. Enjoy. Because that's more. It's not really a question. It's more just appreciating all of the reference material. And so I think a lot of folks consider Joy to be a giant recipe book, which it sort of is. What. What's the number of recipes that's in it?

[Jon Becker]

The official. Yeah, the official number, 4,500. I think.

[Megan Scott]

That's a lot. So that's a lot of recipes.

[Jon Becker]

That's a creative.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, that's a little bit inflated for marketing purposes, I think. And that includes all of the variations, the little paragraph style variations.

[Jon Becker]

It's about 2500, maybe a little bit more on the page. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

But I think one of our favorite. Maybe. I think my favorite part of the book is the Know youw Ingredients chapter at the very back. So if you have a copy of the 2019 edition, you can see where Know youw Ingredients is, because the. The edges of the page are gray, so it kind of sets it apart and you can easily flip to it. But that was my favorite part of the book to work on. And also I think maybe the most, in my opinion, the most useful part of the book.

[Jon Becker]

We definitely have had a lot of conversations about how do we make this book more useful to people who have, you know, who are, like, omnivorous with their, you know, where they're getting their recipes, like, whether it's online or in other books where maybe they're not going into all that much detail about either basic cooking techniques or sourcing ingredients or, you know, how to treat those ingredients. But yeah, the caviar section's been in the book since, like, the 1963 edition. And we've definitely, like, lightly updated it, but Marion had a pretty good handle on it. I think we updated it to include, like, more domestic sources, more sustainable sources of caviar and stuff like just mentioning that they exist. And of course, there's other types of fish roe that are, you know, much more available now, like Tobiko and. Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

Stuff salmon roe.

[Jon Becker]

Salmon roe, Yeah. I think the Marion was on. On the salmon roe, though. Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

Feels very 70s, 60s, 70s, right.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, I think so.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

And John, you found kind of. I thought you found something interesting when you were looking up caviar earlier that wasn't there a deviled egg recipe that was it Deluxe deviled eggs or.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, it was in the 1931 edition. Yeah. Deviled eggs are our favorite special occasion.

[Megan Scott]

What was the headnote, though, that had a really interesting headnote?

[Jon Becker]

Well, yeah, it was like the. The recipe was for Deviled Eggs Deluxe. And in parentheses right below it, Irma wrote, but no longer living up to their name since Woolworth has taken to selling caviar at 10 cents a tin.

[Megan Scott]

So that is wild to consider.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, 10 cents a tin for caviar, but pretty nuts.

[Megan Scott]

That's interesting to look at those really old editions because, like with the caviar, you know, for example. But there, there are a bunch of oyster recipes in there, and oysters were very, very, very cheap in the 30s and people ate them with more reckless abandon than they do now, which you can get oysters for $4 a piece.

[Shannon Larson]

Yeah.

[Megan Scott]

And, you know, I think lobster was a similar story. Lobster was not something that rich people ate. It was a poor man's food. And so I guess caviar at 10 cents a 10. I have no frame of reference for how expensive that would have felt at the time. Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

You got to wonder what oysters were.

[Shannon Larson]

And going back to the references section, too, I feel like, because joy is a traditional gift for, you know, college grads or folks who just got married who might not have the background of cooking as much. I feel like highlighting that references section in any book because I know, Sarah, you have a great references section in your book as well. Just reading how people cut different vegetables different ways, that kind of thing is so helpful for new cooks. And I love, like, I don't know, even in Sarah, in your book, you talk about how your mom, what your mom buys at Costco and then how she, you know, saves it for future use. Those little tidbits and books I absolutely love. Those are my favorite parts of cookbooks. That's why I sit down and actually read them, like novels sometimes.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Shannon Larson]

And you learn so much and so many of those skills. Like, yeah, I can take a recipe and make that in the kitchen. But also I'm going to remember how to cut that carrot, you know, forever, because I read that section.

[Sarah Ahn]

Yeah, yeah. I think when we were developing the Pibimbap recipe, there's a lot of knife work in general with Korean cooking, a lot of knife work to the point where it's not really considered a skill. It's just kind of expected in Korean cooking to cut things very slim and very fast. But when we made the piping pop recipe and ATK was making it and we're getting ready to photograph it, they're the ones preparing it. We saw the carrots, and we're like, oh, no, no, no. This is way too thick. And then we had to send it back for them to cut it again, and then it came back too thick. Even still for us Koreans, where if Koreans saw it, they would be like, did a Korean cut that or no? And then they saw the way my mom cut her carrots and how she stacked it at a slant, and they're like, oh, we need to put that in the book, because I don't think people are familiar with it. And they're like, this method is so genius, but also makes sense because Koreans do so much knife work. But that didn't occur to me, because for me, that's just. For us, that's second nature.

[Shannon Larson]

Right.

[Jon Becker]

Are you talking about the technique where you kind of shingle the slices of carrot so that it's kind of like dominoes?

[Sarah Ahn]

Yes, exactly. And then you cut it like that. And then Koreans. We also use so much garlic. I've gone to school, and people have said, what's that garlic smell? We never buy garlic. That. I don't even know the right words, because I don't. We don't ever have it. We never buy garlic that comes in. It's flesh and the flaky skin. I'm not even using the right terms. Head.

[Megan Scott]

Head of garlic.

[Sarah Ahn]

Yeah. Yeah. We always buy the peeled garlic. And I know peeled garlic has a lot of controversy for some cooks, but we all mince it in a food processor and then freeze it. But every time any Korean posts out online, it goes super viral because it's just like, we didn't think of that.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. Aha.

[Sarah Ahn]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Definitely had an aha moment with, you know, putting it into the Ziplocs and then dividing it into a grid.

[Megan Scott]

It's super smart.

[Sarah Ahn]

Yeah.

[Jon Becker]

Someday. Someday we will attain that level of.

[Shannon Larson]

And this is awesome.

[Jon Becker]

Garlic press.

[Shannon Larson]

The flag for everybody to read those reference sections in your cookbooks. It's absolutely so important.

[Megan Scott]

And like you were saying earlier, Shannon, in my opinion, the intent of the reference material, to me is that, you know, you can learn how to Cook from recipes and then you know how to cook from recipes. But if you kind of know how ingredients behave, what other flavors they go well, with back a little more background, it kind of opens up the world of cooking to you more. So you are less dependent on just the recipe. Right.

[Shannon Larson]

Like if you learn why you're cutting an onion a specific way for specific reasons, like that is going to just be ingrained in your. I feel like for me that gets into my brain and I take that with me a lot more than just, you know, reading a recipe and cooking that recipe. If I know the reasons why and how to use them in the future, it's. I just reference sections for the win.

[Jon Becker]

Yeah, I mean we all need substitutes for son mat until we get enough, we get enough time in the kitchen under our belt.

[Megan Scott]

Exactly.

[Sarah Ahn]

I am curious what you guys think of ingredients. Do you guys also put ingredient recommendations? Because I realized if I use a different brand, it has the ability to ruin a recipe. And when developing this cookbook, I realized, you know, when I've used other people's recipes, it didn't come out good. And I wondered how is this possible? But it's the ingredients and the brands and I wanted to know what your guys thoughts were on that.

[Jon Becker]

It's impossible to really anticipate like all the troubles that readers are going to have like that. I feel like you can maybe write recipes to the point where you be specific where you need to be. But then maybe when you're talking about the amount of carrots in a recipe getting back to carrots, but you know, maybe you don't need the gram weights for the carrots and so you get people to maybe care about the things that are most important that are going to affect the flavor. But yeah, you know, as far as like brands go, Joy of Cooking has never had brands.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, Joy of Cooking has historically not given brand names. I think more out of a concern around not wanting to say, seem like we're being sponsored or like, you know, something like that. But I do think, you know, as we move into the next edition, that's a conversation that we should have because sometimes it does make a huge difference.

[Jon Becker]

Because we're thinking about being sponsored.

[Megan Scott]

No, but I do think sometimes it is really important. There is a way to make something that, you know, it will turn out better if you just use a specific brand. And there are so many choices. So yeah, we should, we should, we.

[Shannon Larson]

Should talk about like Heinz ketchup is my favorite ketchup.

[Megan Scott]

Well, there's just no. That everyone knows That.

[Sarah Ahn]

I had the issue of there's the plum extract brand that we use. And we mentioned the two brands that we recommend, but I just got another one this weekend and just it was cheaper. Ingredients seemed fine. I cooked three meals with it and we had to throw it away because it was that terrible. And it made me wonder, like, oh my gosh, if someone got this brand, they would think our recipes are terrible.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, what was different about the flavor for the plum extract?

[Sarah Ahn]

It was just, I don't know. So plum extract is like a multi dimensional liquid sweetener. It was much darker in color, which my mom thought immediately was suspicious because she's never seen it that dark. But it had a very fermented, unpleasant sweetness to it. And it completely overtook the. The entire dish where that's the only thing you could taste. It was not harmonious.

[Jon Becker]

Well, now I'm going to have to check the brand. We have just to make sure.

[Sarah Ahn]

This.

[Shannon Larson]

Off off camera or off a mic.

[Megan Scott]

And before we wrap up the show or start to wrap up the show, I just wanted to announce this week's Joy Scouts recipe. So we wanted to pick something this week that was from the Know youw Ingredients chapter of the book.

[Jon Becker]

And maybe a little bit more accessible than a recipe that calls for caviar.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, right. It didn't feel quite comfortable calling for caviar in something, but this is actually delicious with caviar if you happen to have some. Our recipe of the week is homemade creme fraiche. It is on page 974. And the reason I love this recipe is because it's so easy to make. Creme fraiche is pretty expensive if you try to buy it in the store. And some places don't have it at all or they might not. Their stock might not turn over as quickly because it's not something people buy a lot. But it's very easy to make. I used to work at a restaurant and we made our own. We, we would make like a gallon of creme fraiche at a time. And you really just need buttermilk or yogurt and heavy cream. And just let it stir a spoonful of that in. Let it hang out at room temperature for a day or two until it thickens. It's extremely easy. And again, that's on page 974. If you're not sure how to use it. We have a few recipes enjoy that call for it. We have actually a creme fraiche ice cream recipe that's very, very good. And then I like to use it half and Half in whipped cream. So I'll use half, just heavy cream and then half creme fraiche. And it stabilizes the whipped cream so it makes it extremely velvety and smooth and prevents the whipped cream from like, what's the word I'm looking for? Wilts, Weeping.

[Jon Becker]

Weeping.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, Weeping liquid or kind of getting sog. It keeps it really stiff and nice for a long time.

[Jon Becker]

Then it also adds a little bit of lactic tang to it. And it's really, really good with fruit desserts or just fruit rhubarb.

[Shannon Larson]

Conserve.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, yeah.

[Megan Scott]

If you have a topic, ingredient or joy story to share, call our hotline at 503-395-8858. Leave us a message or send us, send us a text. We would love to hear from you. Next week's topic comes from our caller.

[Unknown]

Hello, longtime listener, first time caller. I want to hear your pizza thoughts. When did it enter Joy of cooking? What are your favorite styles to make at home? Store bought crust versus homemade, deep dish versus thin, no matter how you slice it. Just share your pizza passions.

[Megan Scott]

What a great question. We'll talk about pizza next week. All right. What is everybody thinking about cooking this week?

[Jon Becker]

Well, now I'm thinking about pizza.

[Shannon Larson]

I know. I'm so excited for this one.

[Megan Scott]

We should make some pizza.

[Jon Becker]

Well, yeah. I mean, Memorial Day is coming up. A friend has offered to make homemade sausage and come over and, you know, really looking forward to that because it involves me not making homemade sausage.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah, he's gonna make, what did he say? Italian sausage, linguica and oh my gosh. Oh, I'm forgetting now, Bratwurst. Yeah. So we're gonna, we're gonna. You're gonna be here for that, Shannon.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, okay. I was a little jealous.

[Megan Scott]

You're invited to the party.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, yeah.

[Megan Scott]

I just read a book this week called Free Food and it's kind of about hippie food and, you know, like brown rice bowls. And it just made me think a lot about. There was definitely a certain time in my life when I was in college, when I was, that's basically how I ate was like brown rice, roasted vegetables, sauteed kale, some kind of sauce, like usually tahini sauce or something. But I am feeling really nostalgic for that kind of food. So I think I'm going to, I'm going to dig into that a little this week.

[Shannon Larson]

Bringing it back.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah. What about you, Shannon?

[Shannon Larson]

The opposite. I saw that recipe for rigatoni with white bolognese, which I've never done before, and I think I want to try It. It looks really good. So that's on my list to make. And then we have some really delicious frozen pierogies in the freezer. And so we're going to kind of come up with a pierogi night at some point.

[Megan Scott]

What about you, Sarah? What are you cooking this week?

[Sarah Ahn]

We had Astro Skaver bowls last night, which is like this herb that you can find in Russia, Korea, and China. It's really good, and you mix it with rice. But I think this weekend I want to make shikae, which is a Korean dessert drink. It's kind of like horchata, but a little different, where you cook rice and ferment it just a bit before it turns into alcohol, and you do it with a malt powder, and it's a very malty, delicious, refreshing drink. Just because California, it's getting a little hot here. Is it hot there in Oregon, too?

[Megan Scott]

No, no, it's rainy and cold.

[Sarah Ahn]

Oh, I'm sweating right now. I close my windows so that the podcast can be quiet, but it's getting hot here, so that's one of the refreshing drinks that we like to have when it gets hot.

[Megan Scott]

What's the texture of that? Like, is it thicker or is it more on the thin side?

[Sarah Ahn]

No, it's just like horchata, where it's just like a normal drink. It has that malty and rice milkiness to it. It's a fascinating recipe. There's a lot of science to it. And if you guys are ever in California, you have to come over and try it.

[Megan Scott]

I would love that so much.

[Shannon Larson]

California trip.

[Megan Scott]

Yeah.

[Sarah Ahn]

Use a rice cooker to ferment it just for three hours.

[Megan Scott]

Okay.

[Jon Becker]

Oh, just like on the warm setting.

[Sarah Ahn]

Yes, exactly.

[Shannon Larson]

Oh, gotcha.

[Megan Scott]

And before we wrap, Sarah, where can listeners follow you?

[Sarah Ahn]

Yeah, I'm everywhere on social under the handle honest. Ah, N E S T Kitchen. And I'm just very honest and Frank and I just share things as is. So I hope you guys find me there and enjoy it.

[Megan Scott]

Thank you so much, and thanks for listening to the Joy of Cooking podcast. Before we go, show some love for your favorite podcast by subscribing to the show and leaving us a review. Follow us at joyofcooking.substack.com and on Instagram hejoyofcooking. Stay tuned for next week where we will tackle pizza. And don't forget to make this week's recipe, homemade creme Fraiche on page 974. Call in with questions, hopes, history, or where you find joy in the kitchen. Our number is 503-395-8858. That's 503-395-8858.

[Shannon Larson]

And we could not do this without our fantastic team at the Joy of Creation production house. Thank you to Dave Dresky, our production coordinator, Haley Bowers, our audio engineer, and Sarah Marshall, our producer.