Jason (6:04)

These ships should go through the Strait

Reza Aslan (6:05)

of Hormuz and show some guts. There's nothing to be afraid of.

Joy Reid (6:09)

They have no navy. We sunk all their ships. He went on to say. He said, look, yeah, there's risk in the region.

Charles Booker (6:15)

The regions follow, they're launching.

Joy Reid (6:19)

Show some guts and go ahead and go through this while there's an active war going on. Are you serious? What are you smoking over there at Fox? Because while Donald Trump is literally doing a live press conference, I think he's still talking, saying the war's about done, guys. And having Fox do the propaganda, the state propaganda, and tell their viewers that there's no reason why ships can't just go ahead and go through the straight. Don't worry about that little old war. No problem. At the same time, Donald Trump told the Times of Israel, an Israeli newspaper, also by a phone interview, that when this war ends would not be a United States decision, not a US Decision. It would be a mutual decision between the US And Israel. So much for sovereignty. Aren't we sovereign? So it is a joint decision between the US And Israel when the war ends. That's what Donald Trump, the president of the United States, is telling a foreign newspaper. So it's Trump and BB The Butcher who decide when the war ends, not just Trump. Weird, right? We also seem to have done a war to replace Ayatollah Khamenei in Iran with Ayatollah Kameni, his son, which the Internet seemed to have noticed. The memes. The memes are hilarious. We. We literally expended billions of dollars and put our economy at great risk to replace Ayatollah Khamenei with the other Ayatollah Khomeini as Mojtaba Khamenei, the son of Ayatollah Khamenei, has been named to be the Islamic Republic of Iran's new supreme leader. This is why MAGA is so triggered, right? They're triggered because we did all of that, harmed our economy, you know, humiliated ourselves around the world, pissed off all of our NATO allies who now fear getting they're going to get dragged to World War iii. And just as in Venezuela, where we replaced the Maduro regime with the vice president of the Maduro regime and all of the rest of the Maduro regime except Maduro in Iran, all of this effort and four, no, six dead U.S. servicemen and counting. The result thus far is that we have replaced Ayatollah Khamenei with another A that's actually his son, the Queen of maga. She done with the bullshit?

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (8:43)

Hegseth said this morning, Megan.

Joy Reid (8:45)

He said that we didn't start this war. But I hate to argue with the Secretary of the Department of War. America and Israel definitely started this war. And you can't lie that away to the American people. And so you know how I feel right now?

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (9:01)

I am irate.

Joy Reid (9:02)

I am furious about this. We are nearly $40 trillion in debt. How much is this war going to cost us? We have seen enough of our American troops dead and murdered for foreign countries. And now we've had four dead and murdered, just like you said, for Israel and for the Iranian people, not for the American people. And I don't want to see any more dead and murdered. Oh, Donald, stop making me agree with that woman. Please stop making me agree with that vile woman. I don't want to agree with Marjorie Taylor Greene, but when you write, you're right. Broken clots, baby. We are at a war that Donald Trump and Marco Rubio, though he both tried to take it back, have admitted is a war for Israel that Israel wanted, not us. We have plenty of evidence of that. Now we are at war because Bibi the Butcher said to. And Donald Trump said, okay. And his donors, who are heavily invested in Israel getting what it wants, have said, you need to do it. We're your donors. And he said, okay. And now Donald Trump knows he's stuck. And his answer is, let's try to go ahead and fix this election so that I can't get punished for it. And since that lady, who I really don't like agreeing with is leaving Congress with her 25 million allegedly in investments, earnings, she's out of here. So somebody has to fill her seat in Georgia's 14th district and joining Me now is one of the candidates who will compete in the runoff election, which is literally tomorrow. And, and I want to note that the main primary in Georgia is in May, but there is actually a special runoff election tomorrow. 17 active candidates remain in that race, 22 people filed. All the candidates appear on the same ballot. It's going to be a major, major, major, major race. So joining me now is one of those Democrats, Sean Harris. Sean, welcome to the show. And what's your plan? What's your plan, Joy?

Sean Harris (10:55)

It's, it's so good to be on your show.

Joy Reid (10:57)

Thank you. So there's a lot of people running. Just Want to know, 12 Republicans are running, 17 candidates total. Everybody's on the same ballot. What's your plan to cut through all of that humanity and get to the runoff and winning?

Sean Harris (11:09)

You know, it's been a great, we had a great start here the last three weeks, early voting. Joy, as you know, Donald Trump actually came right here to Rome, Georgia, where I'm sitting right now to, to endorse somebody that he had actually forgot who he actually endorsed. The reality of it is we are paused to win this election tomorrow because I have Democrats, independence and yes, Joy, I have Republicans that are saying enough is enough that are actually voting for me. So we looking to win this thing flat out. And if we don't win it flat out, we're going to the runoff. But the reality of it is is the Democrats are excited and and Republican mega group of the Republicans are fighting amongst themselves. And you're right, Joy. It's not many times that I agree with Marjorie Taylor Greene, but Marjorie Taylor Greene and I agree on the war. We also agree on the upstream files. And, and that in itself is quite crazy because the last time I ran against Marjorie, I didn't agree with her on anything.

Joy Reid (12:08)

Yeah, it is amazing because I, I interviewed you on my old show back on the Artist Formerly Known as msnbc. The last time you did this, we went through this exercise and you're absolutely right. The idea that you and Marjorie Taylor Greene are now on the same side, I can only explain by your title, you are an army brigadier general. You know, you are a military man. So you more than many would understand the cost of war. And when you look at what the case that you've heard made by Donald Trump, Marco Rubio and Pete Hegseth for why we're doing this, what do you make of that?

Sean Harris (12:46)

You know, I'm thank you for that question. The reality of it is I said this on a couple other shows earlier in the week when I was playing the role of Brigadier General Harris retired. Because, as you know, Joy, my last assignment was Israel, and I spent a lot of time in the Middle East. The bottom line is this war right here is a war of choice. We chose to get into it. The Secretary of State, he actually basically told us that, and then, like you said, tried to walk us back, walk it back a little bit. But the reality of it is now we actually have young people that have paid the ultimate sacrifice. I think we're up to seven now, and I just want to pass my condolences on to their families. But the reality of it is we should not be in this war. And. And as you mentioned earlier, costs are going out the roof, and that is killing us here in Northwest Georgia right now. This morning, I got fuel in my truck and diesel was 4.77. That is extremely high, and that's hurting everybody across the board.

Joy Reid (13:42)

Yeah, say less. I had to put gas in the truck the other day, $4.15 a gallon. I mean, we're talking about that's what, $50 more than it was even just six months ago. I mean, this is unbelievable. And I can afford to fill my truck, my tank. If you imagine being a school teacher or somebody that's working, you know, in at McDonald's and has to get to work to feed your family and you, if you've got $20 in your wallet, you're not going to get much gas for that. Like, I think, you know, people are missing that sort of direct impact. Right. I mean, talk about how the economy has been in northwest Georgia since we last spoke.

Sean Harris (14:23)

Yeah, you know, the economy has always been pretty tough here in Northwest Georgia. And, and, you know, Marjorie was our representative for five years. And the reality of it, she didn't bring anything home here. She just basically was a cheerleader for Donald Trump. And right now, when it comes to our farmers, our number one economy here in this, in the district is agriculture. And our farmers are actually hurting across the board from the prices of fuel costs. But also right now, they're trying to get crops in the field, but fertilizer is just went out of the roof. I was actually a farmer called me right before I jumped on the show with you and was saying, sean, you got to get to D.C. man. You got to help us get. Get the phone bill passed, because right now, we're not going to make it. So the economy is bad, but it's hitting every aspect of this entire. Everybody here is hardworking. It's hitting everybody across the board.

Joy Reid (15:17)

Speaking of Marjorie Taylor Greene and her real shift in opinions on everything, as you said, you and she agree on the Epstein files. You agree on this Iraq war, you agree on the unlimited funding of Israel. Do you believe her transition is real?

Sean Harris (15:31)

I, I believe. You know what I believe is this. She, she came to a realization that being getting on the bad side of Donald Trump is not good. Because the other thing we have in common is this. Just like Marjorie Taylor Greene has received threats, I am also receiving threats. So, so that is another thing that we have in common. So I, I can't say that she is going to be the same way forever, but I will definitely say this. She has, she's has figured out that guess what? Being Donald Trump, never doing it, never doing anything for the people here in Northwest Georgia right now. Marjorie still lives in our community. She still lives right here in Rome, Georgia. And I, I hope that she continues to be a voice of reason. But, you know, we'll see what happens in a year from now.

Joy Reid (16:18)

If you are elected and you're in the United States House of Representatives, would you side with Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna on the complete release of the Epstein files?

Sean Harris (16:28)

100%. 100%. And what I've actually told the people here in Northwest Georgia when I'm up in D.C. my focus is the people here in Northwest Georgia, period. But the people here in Northwest Georgia has made it very clear they also want the Epstein files released regardless of a Democrat, Independent or Republican. That is clear across the board.

Joy Reid (16:49)

And you for particularly from your position as an army brigadier, retired Army Brigadier general, do you support a War Powers Resolution that limits Donald Trump's ability to wage war?

Sean Harris (16:58)

You know, I, I, I have been saying this here for the last week in that other capacities. General Harris, when I was talking on some of those other shows, I won't mention them, but what I have said is that Congress needed to do their job and bring, bring forward to vote on the War Powers Act. Guess what? They brought it forward. I knew it was going to fail because we don't actually have any backbone in the leadership of Congress right now. So the reality of it is we need more leaders to come to D.C. that will say I'm going to hold Donald Trump accountable, regardless if you're a Democrat or Republican. Because right now our kids and grandkids are overseas fighting and they're fighting extremely hard. And we don't even have the gumption to say this is actual war. Think about that. We don't even want to call it a war. We want to call it an operation. Do we A long ways from operation? Because we're actually killing people, not only in the Middle east, but as they talked about the sub, we're killing people all over the world.

Joy Reid (17:56)

Do you think that AIPAC should register as a foreign lobby?

Sean Harris (18:00)

100%. And I don't take any money from APAC at all.

Joy Reid (18:04)

Do you think. I mean, one of the big questions that a lot of people have, and I asked Leader Jeffries this when he was on and he really didn't answer it because there are people who doubt that a change in leadership in the House would change a lot. If the Democrats that are there are not prepared to fight, fight. If you get in and you have a vote on who should be leading the Democratic Party. Do you think Hakeem Jeffries is the right leader right now?

Sean Harris (18:26)

You know where I sit right now when I get there, because I don't know him personally. I have met him overseas. I briefed him when he came to Israel, but I don't know him personally. So I want to get there, sit down with him, have a cup of coffee and see where he stands on the issues. And from that, that's when I would tell him he has my support or not. So I just don't want to just say because I'm a Democrat, I'm falling in line. That is not me. I'm in the leadership business. And my. My job is to do exactly what Margie didn't do. I'm going to make sure that I'm representing the people here in Northwest Georgia and whoever the right leadership to stand up. That's who I want to get in behind. Because right now we. We have some weak leaders on both sides of the coin, not calling anybody out, but we have had some situations where we had eight or nine Democrats who folded right at the end of the day.

Joy Reid (19:18)

Yep, that, that is absolutely true. Including on the War Powers Resolution, about four of them, including Henry Cuellar, did that and sort of went the other way. It was four or five of them. Two more questions. Do you think that Israel has too much influence over US Policy, foreign policy?

Sean Harris (19:31)

I think that, yes. Like I said, I worked in Israel. I know all the different leaders in Israel, great people. But I also believe that from a United States point of view, we always have to be looking through the lens of what is in the interest of the United States. Israel is our partner. But Israel should never tell us what to do. And I think in this particular situation here, the prime minister came here to the United States many, many times. I think seven or eight times. And I think at the end of the day, he has made the president of the United States believe that this is a war that we should be fighting until the president actually comes before the American people and sell and tell us what's really going on. And then tell us if we in this war, if it is a war, then how are we getting out of it and then what is considered success? So right now, I think Israel, we need to look at that relationship a little bit closer to ensure that we are only doing what's best in the interest of the United States.

Joy Reid (20:26)

Amen to that Last question. Clay Fuller has been endorsed by Donald Trump. Do you what what would be your case against him? If it comes down to the two

Sean Harris (20:34)

of you, you, you know, right now this thing is so wide open. We, we're not even 100% sure if Clay fool is even going to be in the top two because I, I'm going to be the number one. We, we're going on the premise, like I said earlier, to win it flat out. And if we don't win it flat out, it could very well be another Republican that we actually running against. So going to let tomorrow night play out, see how that, how that plays out. But then, Joy, let me just tell you this. When it's all said and done on the 11th, we actually turn right back around and go into the primary separate from everything. And all those people that you see that's in the race right now, they'll be right back on the 11th running again inside the Republican primary against whoever. Yeah, I'm running against in the runoff.

Joy Reid (21:23)

It is amazing. Sean Harris, give your website so people want to support you.

Sean Harris (21:27)

There it is right there on my shirt.

Joy Reid (21:28)

There you go. Georgia.

Sean Harris (21:31)

Hey, I just want to tell everybody, thank you for all your support, continue to support us because when I win this election and go to D.C. that's just in November, I got to turn right back around and run again in the in this next November coming up. So if you want a Democrat up there that's going to stand up for everybody, please get in behind my campaign and help us out.

Joy Reid (21:49)

I've always been a fan of yours. Army brigadier retired general. Army brigadier general, retired. Sean Harris, you're a good guy and wish you very much luck tomorrow night. Thank you.

Sean Harris (21:58)

All right. Thank you, too.

Joy Reid (21:59)

Thank you very, very, very much. Okay, let's go to Kentucky Where Freezy, Mitch McConnell's Freezy Senator Mitch McConnell's seat is up since he's finally retiring. At long last, the race will be A redo of the 2020 primary between Charles Booker and military veteran Amy McGrath. Now, she won the. The very, very narrow primary and then promptly lost the general election to Moscow Mitch. The race was razor tight. 247,000 votes for McGrath to 231,888 votes for Booker, which is. I'm not a math person. That's like, you know, 16,000 votes. It was super, super, super close. The primary is on May 19. Now, I want to note that Thomas Massie, the guy who's behind with Ronna pushing the Epstein files out, declined to run, which is either. Well, we'll get into that. It's either really good or really bad news for Republicans. Let's go through. Let's actually just listen to an ad by Charles Booker. Sorry, b1.

Charles Booker (23:12)

As a type 1 diabetic, I never get to forget about my health, not even on Sunday. Like many of you, I've had to ration my insulin because of the costs. So many Kentuckians are skipping their meds just to keep food on the table, all because billionaires and corrupt politicians have decided that profits matter more than the people. Growing up in the church, I learned about compassion. But outside these walls, we have to fight just to be seen as human beings. Well, I see you, and I know you see me, too. So let's fight back. Let's show them what loving your neighbor truly means. In Kentucky, it means real solutions, like Medicare for all, universal childcare, and a guaranteed true living wage. I've rationed my insulin to feed my daughters, and I'll do anything to fight for my family.

Joy Reid (24:03)

Family.

Charles Booker (24:04)

Our Kentucky family. Every single one of you is worth fighting for. That's why I'm running for Senate.

Joy Reid (24:19)

And the great Charles Booker joins me now. Charles, good to see you. Virtually.

Charles Booker (24:27)

Good evening. Joy. Always good to see you.

Joy Reid (24:29)

Always good to see you. So that ad was very impactful and really, really great. Talk about why you decided to run this, to try this again. You did this in 2020. It was super close. Why are you running again?

Charles Booker (24:45)

Well, this campaign is the testament to community. This is what it looks like when regular people stand up and refuse to be knocked down. And Dr. King gave the quote, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. We're showing that. The arc still bends. And this feels like Rocky iii. This feels like, you know, Avengers, when everyone came together in Endgame to fight together on one accord, and we're showing something really special. I'm proud to be a part of this. And because of the work We've done over the years, the history we've made, we're uniquely positioned to win this race.

Joy Reid (25:20)

Now, I'll tell you, I'm, you know, I'm a little bit biased because I, you know, I did do little campaign work back in the day, and I just assessed before I really knew you or I didn't know Amy McGrath or you, but I just assessed that because you had been an organizer on the ground, you had more passion in the streets. It just felt like you would have been a stronger general election candidate. But of course, there were the people who did the thing. We want the moderate. She's a military veteran. She seemed more moderate. Let's just put this up. Jason, if you could be too. I think it is. Or this is the Amy McGrath versus Charles Booker margin. It was so close, like heartbreakingly close. For those of people who are supporting you, she got 45.4%, you got 42.6%. That's a margin of less than 16,000 votes. And if you look at that map, your strongholds are in Lexington, Louisville and Bowling Green. How do you overcome such a tight margin this time? And with different, you know, the other three people will be different this time.

Charles Booker (26:21)

Well, that's the powerful part about a movement, is that we keep building even when the cameras aren't around. And since that historic election where we shocked the world, really, a young black guy from the hood running for U.S. senate, we've continued to organize. I launched an organization called Hood to the Holler. We've done issue based campaigns. We have helped people build coalitions and do storytelling work on how we can join forces. And because of that, I'm already the front runner in this race. I think people understand now that the big money model of candidates that are disconnected from the community don't live our struggles. We're done with that. We're done with the bs. And so I'm up by double digits in the polls in the primary over the same Amy McGrath. And we will win this race rooted in community and the power of organizing from the hood to the holler. As I always say.

Joy Reid (27:08)

Yeah, I love the foot from the hood to the holler. And the thing is, we're in the wake. We're sort of just in the aftermath of the Jasmine Crockett, Tyler Rico primary, where you're having a lot of people among African Americans feel very demoralized. But one of the sort of tough lessons here is that it's not enough to love somebody theoretically. Like the get out the vote piece is really, really important. And self motivation just actually isn't a real thing in politics. I wish it were, but in the United States, it's not just black folks. Americans don't vote unless you literally go to their house and get them. You have to go, literally. What is your ground campaign strategy to make sure that people who love you and who like what you post online and like you on social media are actually going to vote for you?

Charles Booker (27:53)

Well, you just described it perfectly. We have to meet people where they are. And I'm a preacher's kid. Both my parents are ministers. And I was always taught that you, you speak to people where they are and step out of your comfort zone to show up for them. That's what we've done for years. When the floods came, I was out there, whether I was campaigning, working in the governor's office, or just as a citizen helping to clean up and rebuild. And people saw that when the tornadoes came, we were helping people get resources and support they need. And Kentucky's remember that. Democrats, Republicans and independents. And the way that we're going to lean into this now is by capturing the spirit and momentum that we're already seeing. People are organizing across Kentucky saying that there are no kings in the United States of America. People are fighting back. Folks who voted for Trump, who are seeing all the BS in real time, are understanding that things have to change. And now they're joining my campaign. And so I'm excited to tell this story because I'm actually tied in the polls with the Republican that Elon Musk gave $10 million to. We're building something that can win in Kentucky, and if we flip Kentucky, we will flip the Senate. So I'm asking everyone to join us and go to charlesbooker.org support this movement.

Joy Reid (29:04)

And I think this is really important because I think that, you know, you and I have had this conversation, so we just might as well have it on the shows live. Is that there is among the Democratic Party a sense that the south is lost. Forgetting that the south didn't flip to the Republican Party until 2014, and that up until then, Democrats had incredible power throughout the south, had lots of statewide offices. Do you do. Let's say you get this nomination. We're going to. We're going to, you know, knock wood and think positive. You get the nomination. What case. How do you make the case to the national Democratic Party? If you could just put up that next slide? Because the Amy McGrath loss was also. It was less narrow. But I also don't know how much investment was made in the state and whether she, with all due respect to her, she seems like a lovely person, had the streets fired up to come out and give her even a million votes because she wound up not even getting to a million. And Mitch McConnell, who's one of the most unpopular senators in the country, managed to get through.

Charles Booker (30:06)

Yeah. And the answer to your question of whether she had that connection is no, she did not. And the people of Kentucky do not trust not just Amy McGrath, but any candidate that is not speaking to the issues, that is not showing up in community. We're tired of being screwed over. And their campaign raised nearly $100 million. And that money did not stay in the commonwealth. It did not touch the ground. And so that's why I'm leading in the polls already. But to your point of how do we meet people where they are and tell this story to bring the national audience and folks across the country to the table? One, I'm praying that everyone will look at what's in front of their faces. We cannot ignore the deep structural challenges and just hope that Trump goes away, just hope that this hatred goes away. We have to pull up the roots of racism. We have to dismantle white supremacy. We have to do the work of ending poverty. And I'm telling that story by lifting up a vision that I want to share here. I'm very excited to share of a working people's Bill of Rights. So I'm talking about policies that touch people regardless of your party. Medicare for All, Universal basic income, make sure that we are raising wages to a true living wage, that if you work 40 hours a week, you should have 40 hours of guaranteed savings, paid leave, and you should make at least 45,000 tax free. That we need to do the work of protecting working people in the wave of AI. This is an economic revolution that's in front of us. And we're seeing these data centers sprout all over the place. People in Kentucky, Democrats, Republicans and Independents are protesting against them. And I'm lifting up a policy to say let's fight for the people and create a human laboratory protection bureau similar to the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau, that focuses on making sure that as AI is being proliferated and these data centers are coming in, that we're not exploiting and crushing working people platforms.

Joy Reid (31:59)

That is so important because you know, as you said, your opponent is funded by one of the biggest proliferators of AI, which is stealing jobs, stealing opportunities, stealing livelihoods. Do people on the ground that you're talking to, are they making that Connection that these billionaires are stealing our lives away. And, you know, Peter Thiel said he can't even answer the question of whether humans should continue to exist.

Charles Booker (32:23)

I'm telling you, they see it. And although it hurts that we've had to face so much pain for people to realize what's really happening, we've been lied to for so long. And Donald Trump told people he was going to drain the swamp. He told people he was going to bring jobs back, that no one cared about them. But I care. Of course we knew he was lying. But a lot of people genuinely took a chance. A lot of the same folks that voted for Bernie Sanders voted for Donald Trump. They were just looking for someone to fight for them. I'll give you an example. I was in Pikeville last night, one of the counties that went for Trump first. Trump carried this county in historic margins. The steelworkers in Pikeville endorsed my campaign last night because they understand that this woman requires leadership that cares about us, that you can call it progressive, label it whatever you want. We just don't want to struggle. We want to turn our water on and the water not come out brown. We want our children are safe and that ICE isn't terrorizing communities and that our loved ones aren't being snatched up and put in cages because of the country they come from. We want wars to end. My cousin was just deployed. We want to make sure that we are investing in our people at home, and that's why we're going to win this race.

Joy Reid (33:37)

Yeah. I'm assuming that people in Kentucky are not thrilled about the war. Thomas Massie has his, you know, it's really strength standing against the, you know, the endless wars and against, you know, the hiding of the Epstein files. How has that impacted the sort of political ground in your state?

Charles Booker (33:54)

It's very interesting to see. You know, I look at people, people like Thomas Massie is just a really unprecedented broken clock. There's a lot of issues that I deeply, deeply disagree with him on. But in this moment, he has been a voice of truth, and I've actually spoken out to commend him for it. And it's been interesting to see my colleagues on the other side, if you will. Daniel Cameron, Andy Barr, Nate Morris, these folks running for U.S. senate tripping over themselves to kiss Trump's ass and essentially say that we're going to protect child predators. And the people of Kentucky are fed up with that. And are you seeing so much support

Joy Reid (34:34)

come to our campaign, let alone my exit question here, Mitch McConnell. I think one of the most shameful things. He's done a lot of shameful things, including stealing a Supreme Court seat from President Obama. You could go on, but to me, maybe the most shameful is being probably the most powerful Senate majority leader in my lifetime and. And doing literally nothing, almost nothing, for still one of the three poorest states in the union. How in the hell is Kentucky one of the poorest states in America with Mitch freaking McConnell as your senior senator?

Charles Booker (35:07)

You know, every time I say it, it's. It's. It's tough for me to even get these words out. Mitch McConnell was elected when I was two weeks old. He has been screwing us over my entire life. And we're hard workers. We're survivors. We're used to everyone ignoring us. So we put our nose down and we take care of each other. And I've helped to shine a light to say we don't have to just deal with this. We can change things. And what I've seen is that it's contagious. People realize that change won't happen unless we do it. And I'm proud of us. I'm proud of the story we're telling, and I'm asking everyone to give us a chance, because again, if we flip Kentucky, we flip the Senate, and we got to do that.

Joy Reid (35:46)

We got to start thinking bigger and start thinking the unthinkable. And people have written off the idea that a state like Kentucky can be flipped. Any state can be flipped if enough people vote. Charles Booker, you're great. Let it tell me website one more time, and we're going to put it on the screen so that people can support you. And please, please, please, y', all, if you're in Kentucky, please register to vote. Also Georgia, but yes, there it is. Charles booker.org Give us your closing comments, sir.

Charles Booker (36:11)

Yes, please go to charlesbooker.org, take this stand with us. We are regular people locking arms for the future we deserve. Let's save democracy. Let's stand up for justice. Let's take on the Epstein class. Let's win.

Joy Reid (36:23)

Amen. Amen. Yeah, the Epstein class is a real thing. Thank you, Charles Booker. We appreciate you very, very much. We're going to keep it moving, y', all, because we want y' all to feel hope. You know, those of you who I know, folks that watch the Joy Reid show were very down about what happened in Texas, but there's no reason to be down. There are still a lot of great Texas talented leaders who are standing up and working on your behalf. And I'M sure you all remember this because this next guest is one of them. Now, I'm sure you guys all remember this viral moment between Florida Congressman Gerald Moskowitz and California Congresswoman Sydney Kamloger. Dove is she hiding her face like her ICE agents now? She can't show her face either. By the way, is this what the $800 billion went went to? Every day we see her after there's some new tragedy in Homeland, she's wearing a different outfit with a different hat. You guys know this. You guys know she's not running Homeland. Your governors and you all, when you need your FEMA money, you don't call Noam, you call Corey. You know she's not running the place. She's a complete and utter embarrassment. By the way, every Homeland Secretary has come in front of this committee once a Congress. I'd like to know the date she's coming. When is she coming?

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (37:40)

When is she coming?

Joy Reid (37:41)

When is she coming? By the way, do you know Pam Bondi has not come in front of this committee? Do you know she's the only secretary to not appear in front of a committee yet? When is she coming? What's the date on the calendar that she's coming? You know what? Let's make it easy. I want to make a motion to subpoena Pam Bondi. Second Committee.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (38:01)

Third, fourth, fifth.

Joy Reid (38:03)

Third, Fourth, fifth. I'm sorry, that was iconic. But she is not new to this. Representative Kama. She not new to this. Y', all, please enjoy this little super cut.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (38:13)

Last fall, after the horrific shooting of Charlie Kirk, President Trump was asked if there were extremists on both the left and the right. And his exact words were, I'll tell you something that's going to get me in trouble, but I couldn't care less. The radicals on the right oftentimes are radical because they don't want to see crime. The radicals on the left are the problem and they're vicious and they're horrible and they're politically savvy. Do you agree with this statement? You're taking too long, Madam Attorney General. But you know the answer because your own department has addressed the question. In 24, the DOJ's research arm and issued a report on domestic terrorism stating that the far number of far right attacks continues to outpace all other types of terrorism and domestic violence. Extremist. The DOJ published their report and after the President made those comments, the DOJ took the report down. And I sent you a letter asking you a simple question. Why did the Justice Department remove The data that shows right wrong wing extremists have killed more innocent people than left wing extremists. Did you refer to immigration enforcement as domestic terrorism? You should answer my question. You're on my time, but you won't. But sadly, this is a kind of courage that our President doesn't have. So as Donald Trump delivers his address and sees Genalisa and her fellow survivors in the audience, he will be reminded what true leadership looks like.

Jason (40:01)

Congresswoman, what do you make of the

Charles Booker (40:03)

union worker who called out Donald Trump

Jason (40:06)

yesterday at the Ford factory as a pedophile protector?

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (40:08)

Well, I think the union worker was stating an actual fact. And isn't it curious that they, the President of the United States, gave the middle finger to an American worker? Well, I think this is about exposing

Joy Reid (40:20)

the fact that you have incompetent, ill

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (40:22)

qualified folks in the administration.

Joy Reid (40:24)

Yeah. And it's also about showing that if you win the House, are you going to try impeach someone? Are you still going to be holding these hearings if you win the House?

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (40:31)

Yes, ma'.

Joy Reid (40:32)

Am.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (40:32)

The goal is to win the House and then to subpoena everyone and investigate everyone.

Joy Reid (40:36)

And when Christy Noem finally did show up for a hearing, this happened.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (40:44)

So, Secretary Noem, at any time during your.

Joy Reid (40:53)

Why do I love these wide open spaces? Oh, oh, I don't know if it's gonna run, Secretary.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (41:00)

No. At any time during your tenure as director of Department of Homeland Security Security, have you had sexual relations with Corey Lewandowski?

Joy Reid (41:12)

Mr. Chairman, I am shocked that we're

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (41:14)

going down and peddling tabloid garbage in this committee today. Reclaiming.

Joy Reid (41:18)

And ma', am, one thing that I

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (41:19)

would tell you is that he is

Joy Reid (41:21)

a special government employee who works for the White House.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (41:24)

There are thousands of them in the federal government. It is okay for you to be no authority any. It is okay for you to question, but it is also a real question. So what I would say, and you should be able to answer what we

Joy Reid (41:40)

do at the Department of Homeland Security

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (41:41)

every single day and without any hesitation,

Joy Reid (41:43)

every single day is to protect.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (41:45)

If someone is asking you or any federal official is sleeping with their subordinate, that should be the easiest. You should be wanting to answer that question because it is not about your Spence. It is about your. Your judgment. That kind of garbage about reclaiming my time so that I can hear my

Joy Reid (42:02)

recognize time belongs to the gentle lady from California. If you would let her respond.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (42:09)

I will.

Joy Reid (42:11)

And joining me now is the aforementioned Congresswoman Sydney K. Of the great state of California. Great to see you, Congresswoman.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (42:23)

It is so good to be here with you today. Joy Reid, did you enjoy that retrospective

Joy Reid (42:31)

on your life and career? Because listen, when I tell you, I have to tell you our audience is a big fan of yours. And so I wanted to give them that, that soul food before I actually asked you, did you ever get an answer from Kristi Noem who no longer works at the Department of Homeland Security, nor does her alleged paramour? Did you ever get an answer?

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (42:56)

I guess the answer that I got was that she got fired. No, she never, she said all these words. She said all these words, Joy, but she never, she didn't say no. She also didn't say yes. And as I said, you should want to answer that question and clear the air when the underlying question is do you have good judgment? Are you the one responsible for these decisions that are being made, that have locked up a five year old child, that have shot Americans dead, that have not dispersed our FEMA money, you know, that have detained and deported and terrorized and intimidated our family members and our friends? Is it you or is it this other person who has unfettered access, who has and, and, and has a real conflict of interest because the American people want to know what's going on with our FEMA money and who's going to be held accountable for this ice terror that we are battling in our streets. So that's what I want to know. Are you making these decisions with clear mind or are you, is your judgment cloudy?

Joy Reid (44:12)

You know, and I, I think a lot of people are crediting you for the fact that she did lose her job, as did Corey Lewandowski. She was moved. Better job that no one's ever heard of. So. But they're keeping on the payroll because I guess they don't want her to do an interview with Sean Hannity and start talking. But the other thing that did come out and that we call them the big Negus, Joan, the goose brought out was this $200 million ad campaign that appears to have gone to a brand new company that didn't exist till 8 days before they got the, the, the, the huge government contract. And we're just going to play a little bit of that ad. Jason, if you could. This is C4. This is the ad that we pay for as taxpayers. Why do I love these wide open spaces?

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (44:54)

They remind me of why our forefathers came here. Not just for its beauty, but for

Joy Reid (44:58)

the freedom only America provides.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (45:00)

I'm Kristi Noem.

Joy Reid (45:02)

From the cowboys who tamed the west to the titans who built our cities, to the dreamers who chased the impossible. America has always rewarded vision and grit. Our greatness calls people to us for a chance to prosper, to live how they choose to become part of something special. I don't know if you believe that that is worth $200 million. I do not. Even though Ms. Gnome no longer is leading the Department of Homeland Security, is Congress still looking to find out how that contract happened?

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (45:38)

Yes, Queen. So, first of all, as it relates to that crazy video, was she trying to pretend like she's John Wayne? I'm thinking, well, the dreamers and the innovators who built this country were the immigrants.

Joy Reid (45:51)

Boo.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (45:51)

So, like, say that part, number one. Number two, $220 million. For that, we should be getting our money back. The third thing is going back to this Corey L. As a volunteer staff person, a special government employee, and you are still supposed to submit financial disclosures so that we know that you are not financially benefiting from your role. And he has not submitted any of those disclosures. I don't know if it's because his boss didn't ask for them, but I would want to know, did he benefit from that $220 million ad campaign or any other contract that may have been approved? You see, that's why we were asking the questions. But of course, we are going to, number one, show up with the receipts and be like, okay, boo. Give us the refunds. And here's another thing, Joy. Between the time she got terminated and March 31, we want to be up in that ass to make sure that she's not doing anything crazy between now and then, okay? Because you don't know she's this new special. First of all, doesn't that special envoy sound like a project that hasn't yet been greenlit in Hollywood? Like, what is this? But I want to make sure between now and 31st, the March 31st, when she officially takes charge, that nothing else, no other shenanigans, financial shenanigans happen. So all eyes are going to be on Christy. No.

Joy Reid (47:27)

And all eyes on Christy Gnome. But the person who's replacing her, I'm gonna play a little bit of Mark Wayne Mullen. To me, Strike strikes me as another problematic figure. He's benefited quite substantially from government money, PPP loans for his plumbing business. He seems to have made a lot of money doing investments that may or may not be related to things he's regulating on his committees. But let's also play. One of my other issues with Mark Wayne Mullen is, I will just say, his cranial Capacity and his capacity for, like, understanding basic things. Here's Mark Wayne Mullen.

Reza Aslan (47:58)

Well, as we know, the President doesn't bluff. He, he moves on his own time. Everything that he has said he's able to do. And, and I believe these will be

Joy Reid (48:08)

very coordinated direct strikes.

Reza Aslan (48:10)

Remember, our military is.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (48:12)

Well, while we're waiting to give the

Reza Aslan (48:14)

sides, we knew this was a possibility, even though we're not into regime change. We're not.

Joy Reid (48:20)

We're not.

Reza Aslan (48:21)

This isn't the Arab Spring like happened underneath Secretary Clinton, but this is the people of Iran standing up to a murderous regime. And if, if that leadership is going

Joy Reid (48:33)

to kill their own people, the President said, we'll come to your rescue. But you just said you are for regime change here. No, I said I'm for the strikes.

Reza Aslan (48:40)

I didn't say.

Joy Reid (48:40)

You said before that you're for taking out the regime.

Reza Aslan (48:42)

Yeah, absolutely, because they're the ones murdering their own people.

Joy Reid (48:44)

Okay, we can stop. My head hurts. I don't think he knows what regime change means because he's like, I'm not for regime change change. I'm for changing the regime.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (48:53)

He don't seem to know the difference between Iran and Iraq in one of the interviews.

Joy Reid (49:01)

When does he come before the committee so you can have it. Have him?

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (49:04)

Well, so he. So I don't know, because first he has to get confirmed on the Senate. And of course, those people are his homies. And I do believe that he will be on his good behavior, on his best behavior between now and when that confirmation happens. But I also know that this is somebody who sort of inferred that he served in the military and he didn't. He doesn't have any law enforcement experience. He doesn't have any experience with disaster preparedness or disaster management. My understanding is that Trump thinks he looks sexy on TV and he's highly charismatic. So, you know, here we go. But I do hope, at the very least, he understands that when there is a natural disaster, regardless of the state, money needs to get to the victims and survivors of these natural disasters, because real talk, they're Republicans and Democrats in

Joy Reid (49:56)

all of these states.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (49:57)

And I think he should also not try to make any $220 million campaign ads with some chaps on a horse, because that's not what the American people need.

Joy Reid (50:09)

Amen to that.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (50:10)

Or don't jump in the wrestling ring either, brother. Just, like, try to find a way to do the job.

Joy Reid (50:16)

Yeah, yeah. And without doing something stupid. I just, I need, like, about a week of this administration, this regime, not doing Something stupid like even that would be enough right now. Just a week off from the stupid. The other piece of it is the. There has been. There have been several hearings. And I have to give Democrats credit, y'.

Reza Aslan (50:34)

All.

Joy Reid (50:34)

Y' all do a hearing. Y' all will do a hearing very well. And there was one of the hearings in which people that work in Department of Homeland Security, the agencies under it, ICE, and ICE and Border Patrol, were asked, Are you hiring January 6th insurrectionist? And the answer kept being, we'll get back to you. Well, I want you all to look at Enrique Tarrio, the very ironically black Cuban leader of the proud boys. You can see on the upper left hand corner. He took a picture with Marco Rubio, his fellow Florida Cuban, and he was at some organizational meeting for, I guess, I don't know, protecting the Americas from whatever. He gets called out when he posted that on X Twitter by people who were saying that he was identifying himself as an ICE agent, basically based on what he was saying in his post. And he kind of seemed to confirm it. He said, I'm the one who checks papers, my dear. When he was asked, got papers? Is there a way for Congress to find out if this guy, who is a convicted insurrectionist on January 6, a leader of the insurrection, is now working for ICE, as he implied in his posts?

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (51:48)

So this is a question that we have been asking in real talk. We haven't gotten any definitive answers. I mean, we actually the. The speaker finally put up the plaque in the Capitol honoring the law enforcement members of the Capitol Police who protected not just the institution, but the members in it, Republicans and Democrats. We have had hearing after hearing where we have called out the duplicity of these Republicans who now say they don't care if a January Six is hired. Why are we talking about it when on January 6 they were hiding under chairs, running for their lives, and then later tweeting that all of these people needed to be held accountable for their insurrectionist actions. So one of the reasons why it is so important for us to win gavels in November is that we can do more than just be the minority punching back in these hearings. I mean, I think it's a miracle that a black woman from Los Angeles and the minority party was willing to throw the knockout punch to get this lady fired. But I would like more tools, and in my toolbox. And winning in November would be a way to gain more tools. You can subpoena folks, you can investigate them, you can impeach them. You can share, unravel, share the truth to The American people. Because I don't know about you, but this is not how a democracy should work. And never, ever in our or anyone else's lifetime should we be in a situation where we are allowing a democratically elected president to. To act as undemocratically as this person has been acting. There is. There is no reason we should ever want to relive the horrors of this administration right now. And part of it begins with holding these folks accountable. Subpoena, investigating, impeaching, prosecuting. Yes, imprisoning.

Joy Reid (53:45)

Amen. And this is where. Amen. But this is where I think we get to the frustration that a lot of Democrats have. Good. Congresswoman. Because if the Democratic Party takes over the House, we want to see Representative Sydney Sidney Kamlogger dove have a gavel. We don't want to have you, you know, sent to the back of the line where some person that's been there for. For 40, 50 years gets to go before you. We've seen this happen with aoc. We have seen this happen with Jasmine Crockett. That it feels like the leadership, even though they claim they want young members to get a chance. You are the kind of Congress member that we want to hold a gavel. Is leadership hearing that. Do they understand that we want you to be able to subpoena people because we know that you will fight?

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (54:38)

I think. I mean, I think so. I think. I do think that this. The leadership in this caucus is watching the same things that you're watching. And they're like, hey, these new members, they're resonating with the American people. You know, I'm not reading talking points that somebody gave me. I'm telling you the truth. Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable. It pains me. It pains me to say the things that I am not able to do because we're not in the majority. Right. It was not the thing I wanted to do to ask this lady about her sex life, but it was the thing that I knew needed to get done. And you know, Joy, because I've heard you say this, you know, we have got to stop being too civil.

Joy Reid (55:16)

Yes.

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (55:16)

And. And weak. Right. And go along to get along and hope for the crumbs. Because the American people are scared. They are struggling and they are angry. And we have to respond to that and show them, even when we get punched out, we are getting up and fighting for the American people. And I think that's what the American people want when they say, I'm going to go to bat for you up until November because I'm putting faith in the fact that come November, you're going to continue to do what you've been doing right now. And if you don't show me that you have the fortitude to keep doing this, then you might not have my vote. And I think that is legitimate for the American people to say, because they have put up with so much in just the short time that this man has been in office again.

Joy Reid (56:10)

Amen. Amen. You can get an amen. It's not even Sunday and we're not even in church. You can get an Amen. Before we close, I would love for you to just do a quick, we're gonna do a little Civics 101, because I think people, you know what Democrats also, to me don't do well is willpower. They feel, they seem to be a little bit shame faced about wielding power. Whereas Republicans, people, people like Trump, he says, I'm gonna break the law, come get me. You know, until you stop me, I'm gonna push and push and push. What could the House do pragmatically? What could the House accomplish? Let's say Democrats just get the House, they don't get the Senate. What could the House do to reign this in, this regime in?

Congresswoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (56:51)

So the three, the three things that we can do is you can conduct oversight, you have power over the purse, and you have the right to declare war. So I would hope that once we get into office, we change some of the rules and this speaker has, has created rules of the House to allow him to kind of wield the tiny power that he has because of the very thin majority. So I think we should make some changes there so that we're able to stop some things from getting out of rules, bad bills that we know are basically book of bears designed to divide the Democratic Party. We should be able to stop those from happening. Right? We should also go hard core in the paint with subpoenas, and we could essentially subpoena everybody in the Cabinet and bring everybody and then the Under Secretaries, and we should be doing a full thrown, transparent audit of what has transpired under this administration. Because I don't know about you, but I want to know who has given money for this ballroom and how immediately can that be stopped and how immediately are we able to get some of that money back? I mean, those are things that we can do on top of an affirmative agenda. Because I also want to be talking about the money, the $1 billion a day allegedly that it is costing for this war. Okay, that in my mind is illegal. What, how could we be using that money to reinstate subsidies to have a larger conversation about the insurance industries and how they're getting away with some of our money to protect our public school systems so that we can have better public schools in every single community in every district across this country. Right. How are we then going to put together an agenda that talks about the kinds of businesses that we want in our communities that will allow for dignified jobs? How can we lean into the antitrust violations, okay, that are squeezing competition, squeezing choice and squeezing dollars out of our households? Now, that's an agenda that I want to get behind. That's why I'm going to, you know, working to do all I can to make sure we get the majority in November. Because I think those are the things that the American people are talking about.

Joy Reid (59:02)

And I think. And for the, for the chat, the chat is very excited. They're very excited about this. They want you to implement that tomorrow. I don't think you can. But I want you all to understand what the Congress was woman is saying because a lot of times Democrats are told, well, you're not doing anything if you just have the House when I tell you hearings are actually powerful. And one of the things that Democrats did really well are the January 6th hearings, which were must see TV. I, Congresswoman, would love to see Democrats, if they get back the gavels, as you said, subpoena everyone, not just on the ballroom, but everyone named in those Epstein files. I want to know those doctors who, who were treating those victim girls on Epstein Island. I want the governor of The Virgin Islands, U.S. virgin Islands, subpoenaed. Make this must see TV. Make Donald Trump have to have his ass aired out all day, every day by Congress. If you just start subpoenaing people on all these issues. Who is stealing? Did Elon Musk get our data? Subpoena him. All them Doge boys, subpoena them. And this is something y', all that Democrats can do even if they can't pass legislation that Trump is forced to sign because the Senate is in the way. What we want is the reckoning. As somebody just said, we want the reckoning and we want the reckoning also with a W R E C K. Because the way that you can slow this fool down is to force the country to see what he has done. And I appreciate you, Congresswoman. You are one of our absolute favorites. Keep talking your talk. Talk your. We love it. We love it, love it, love it. Congressman Sydney, come lager dove. You are awesome. And I also, by the way, love that you have a relationship to Carrie James Marshall, because he actually is one of my favorite artists. That's your stepdaddy. We love it, we love it, we love it. Your mom is awesome. So thank you very much. You're great. Come back anytime. Listen, let me tell you. Please do. Her mom is Sherilyn Bruce. If y' all don't know, Google her. She's amazing, too. Like, she comes from an incredible family. She was in Daughters of the Dust. Like, her mom is awesome. Her stepdad is awesome. That lady is amazing. So this is what we wanted to do today. Welcome to hour two of the Joy Reach Show. One of the things that makes me sad is when people start to feel disheartened because they don't feel like there's leadership that's doing anything. And when I. So we want to bring you all some of the gems in politics on the side of right so that you can see that there is a squad, that there are people who are out there fighting properly for you. And Sydney Kumlager, Dove is one of the bestest. Okay? And she is out there doing the dang thing. She's also a member of Zeta Phi Beta sorority, so all the Zetas. You can go crazy on that. She's a part of that as well. I did look that up properly to make sure I'm right in that campaign. So thank you all for tuning into that, because I think that was important for us to do just so that we can establish sort of a sense of where we are and what is possible. And if we get that lady. And you need to demand that leadership, give her a gavel. We don't just want her in the background, high fiving the person with the gap. We want her to have a gavel, and we need to make that one of our demands. We want our strong players to not just be in the right committees, but to have gavels. Don't mess around and make us push for her to be speaker, because we are not. We are not above that. Okay? We also want to thank our sponsors because we could not do this without our sponsors. The Joy Reach show is brought to you by our friends at the Freedom From Religion Foundation. So I want to just talk to you about who pays the price when church and state merge. Who pays the price? Women. LGBTQ folks. It's religious minorities. It's Muslims. It's people who are not in the majority. It's literally anyone who does not fit a narrow, white, Christian nationalist vision of America. And the First Amendment exists to stop that from happening. The Freedom From Religion foundation is fighting in courts and communities to keep public institutions secular so that no one is forced to live under someone else's theology. This is a civil rights issue. If you want to support, visit FFRF US Joy or simply text Joi Joy to 511511 to learn more and join. Go to FFRF US Joy or text Joy to 511511 and helped protect a country that belongs to all of us. Go to FFRF US Joy or text JOY JOY to 511511 today. Message and Data rates apply. But please, please support them because they're doing the work, I would say the work of the Lord, but really the work that the Lord wants us to do without the Lord being all in it. Thank y' all for paying attention. And so again I want to thank everybody who's tuned in. This is our two of the Joy Reid show. We have climbed to nearly 430,000 subscribers on YouTube, nearly 210,000 on the stack. But just 54% of our regular YouTube viewers are also subscribers. That means that 45% of the lovely people who watch this show on a regular are not subscribers. So if you would please do Jason and me and the crew a favor and subscribe now, that would be amazing. It really does help us to grow. Even if you are a free subscriber, that algorithm boost is everything to independent media and right now independent media sadly is all we got. So now what we now have and I want to show you this, it's heartbreaking. We now have video show showing the allegedly US missile that hit that girl school in Iran which is a likely war crime. Here is that video. It's horrific. And seeing that happen and the fact that we are likely responsible for the Deaths of those 160 girls, school girls, children and the injuring of dozens and dozens of others really does take me back to back in 2003 when presidential hopeful General Wesley Clark who had been the supreme allied commander in Europe of NATO from 1997 to 2000 and he was running for president. I was a Clarky. I was a big supporter at the time time he spoke at this organization in D.C. called the Commonwealth Club and told a harrowing story about how the George W. Bush White house devised a five year plan after the 911 strikes to attack seven majority Muslim countries. Take a listen.

Reza Aslan (65:41)

He says it's worse than that. I was leaving the Pentagon and an officer from the Joint Staff called me into his office and said I I want you to know he said sir, we're going to attack Iraq And I said why? He said we don't know. He said. I said, well did they tie Saddam to 9 11? He said no.

Joy Reid (66:02)

And then I came back to the

Reza Aslan (66:03)

Pentagon about six weeks later. I saw the same officer. I said, why? Why haven't we attacked Iraq?

Joy Reid (66:08)

We still going to attack Iraq?

Reza Aslan (66:09)

He said, oh sir, he says it's worse than that. He said.

Joy Reid (66:15)

He pulled up a piece of paper off his desk.

Reza Aslan (66:17)

He said, I just got this memo

Joy Reid (66:18)

from the Secretary of Defense's office that says we're going to attack and destroy

Reza Aslan (66:21)

the governments in seven countries in five years. We're going to start with Iraq and then we're going to move to Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran. It was a pretty stunning thing. You mean the purpose of the military is to start wars and change governments? It's not to sort of deter conflict? We're going to invade countries. And I, you know, my mind was spinning and I put that aside. It was like a nugget that you hold on to. This country was taken over by a group of people with a policy coup. Wolfowitz and Cheney and Rumsfeld and you

Joy Reid (67:03)

could name a half dozen other collaborators

Reza Aslan (67:05)

from the Project for a New American Century. They wanted us to destabilize the Middle east, turn it upside down, make it under our control.

Joy Reid (67:17)

In their defining document, written In September of 2000, a full year before 9 11, they acknowledged that the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent in their own chilling words, some catastrophic and catalyzing event like a new Pearl Harbor.

Reza Aslan (67:41)

One year later that event would arrive.

Joy Reid (67:45)

And of course that was 9 11, the catalyzing event that gave us Palantir. Palantir was created after 911 and has grown to become our mass surveillance infrastructure. And who initially funded Palantir? The CIA, which created an investment or arm that invested in the nation. Palantir. Mass surveillance came from that and this group of men who were in this think tank called the Project for a New American Century. It was a neo conservative think tank based in Washington D.C. which focused on U.S. foreign policy. It was first established as a non profit educational organization in 1997 and it was founded by Bill Kristol, who's now very anti Iraq and Robert Kagan. The stated goal of the Project for a New American Century was to promote American global leadership. The organization stated that American leadership is both good for America and good for the world. And they wanted to build support for a Reaganite policy of military strength and quote, moral clarity. Now out of the 25 people who signed the founding States Statement of Principles, which did include Jeb Bush, by the way, not George W. But his brother Jeb. Ten of the original signers of their founding statement went on to serve in the George W. Bush administration, including Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz, who were some of the architects of the Iraq war. And there are those who believe that this group, this core group of Project for New American Century men played a key role in shaping US Foreign policy, including pushing us to invade Iraq, though it had nothing to do with 911 and using the horror people felt over 911 to get us to not just invade Afghanistan, but also Iraq. Well, who else was pushing for us to invade Iraq after 9 11? Bibi Netanyahu during his first run as prime minister. He's been prime minister three times. But even after the Project for New American Eccentric officially disbanded in 2009, the same crowd, including the peanut people, but also Bibi Netanyahu in Israel, were pushing Barack Obama to attack Iran. Here's David Blinken, who was Secretary of State under Joe Biden. And let's see if this plays. This is D3.

Jason (70:11)

Look, you know, this is, this has been a long story when it comes to Iran. And back during the Obama administration, the Israelis were pushing President Obama to take

Sean Harris (70:22)

military action against Iran and were warning that they would do it themselves if he didn't.

Jason (70:30)

And he wouldn't because he thought the

Sean Harris (70:32)

better way to get at the nuclear

Jason (70:33)

program, which is what we were focused on, was through very muscular diplomacy backed up by very, very strong sanctions that

Sean Harris (70:40)

we rallied the world to put in place and then we got the Iran nuclear agreement.

Joy Reid (70:45)

Oh, I will note that Blinken to me is one of the great villains of the Biden administration, the Biden Harris administration, because he was the see no evil guy when it came to the, the, the, the massacre of people in Gaza. He didn't seem to see the genocide while it was happening. But he's been around, right? These foreign policy people stick around from administration to administration. So people who are around in the Obama world wind up in the Biden world, et cetera. And he's one who said, nah, Bibi's been trying to get us to invade Iran. And there are people who have been at least claim to be against that idea all the way back since then, including people who were young at the time of the Iraq war, young men and women who in that, in that era, as I was deeply, deeply anti war and who then made that case that the continuity meant that Kamala Harris would be a warmonger. One of those people is J.D. vance. So let's listen to J.D. vance versus J.D. vance as he has changed positions. This is D4 Trump.

Jason (71:46)

And I believe that America ought to be tough and America ought to have a strong foreign policy. But when people like Kamala Harris send our sons and daughters, our young people, to fight in stupid wars, it is the young generation that carries the burden of that. We're going to stop sending our young people to far away lands. We are not the policemen of the world. We need to use our young people here. I certainly empathize with Americans who are exhausted after 25 years of foreign entanglements

Joy Reid (72:14)

in the Middle East.

Jason (72:15)

I understand the concern, but the difference is that back then we had dumb presidents and now we have a president who actually knows how to accomplish America's national security objectives. So this is not going to be some long drawn out thing we've got in. We've done the job of setting their nuclear program back. We're going to now work to permanently dismantle that nuclear program over the coming years. And that is what the President has

Reza Aslan (72:39)

set out to do.

Joy Reid (72:40)

Oh, got it. So the problem wasn't the Forever wars. It's that Donald Trump, genius Donald Trump was in charge. Now that genius Donald Trump is in charge, you're fine with sending our young men and women off towards. Got it. Now that Bibi the Butcher has said it's okay. All good, Right? And then this sort of thing of taking Israel's lead, BB's lead is not just something that's happening among with, with J.D. vance, right? Or with the neocons finally getting their way. I mean, you should see how happy the sort of chief neocon Lindsey Graham is right now. He's so excited, he's running around showing people hats that say Cuba's next. Right? But you've also got Christian nationalists, and Vance is a mild Christian nationalist. But the real hardcore ones are even happier about this because they believe that this war is a presage to Armageddon. There's literally a town called Megidda that exists in Israel. And Megidda is where Armageddon, the final battle between God and the devil, is supposed to take place. The Antichrist, the final battle takes place in Megiddo. That's what Armageddon is. It is the battle in Megiddah. That is a place in Israel that is now being bombed because of the war with Iran. And people who believe that, that bringing about the apocalypse, that this war with Iran will bring that about, that Includes people like Pete Hegseth, who actually, unlike Vance, has a long history of this kind of thing. I want you all to listen to the various stages of Pete Hegseth's sort of religious determinism when it comes to Iran and Israel. Here's Pete. He reference to the providence of Almighty God.

Jason (74:32)

Is there any part of you, Mr.

Reza Aslan (74:34)

Secretary, that views any of this in a religious context?

Jason (74:37)

I mean, obviously we're fighting religious fanatics who seek a new nuclear capability in order to for some religious Armageddon. But from my perspective, obviously, I'm a man of faith who encourages our troops to lean into their faith, rely on God. There's no atheists in foxholes. Your mortality is right in front of you. I remember prayer for me on combat missions, how important that was. That's why we're making the Chaplain Corps great again and active again to our steadfast partner, Israel. Your mission is being executed with unmatched skill and iron determination. Fighting shoulder to shoulder with such a capable ally is a true force multiplier and a breath of fresh air. So I when I speak in America, I always end by talking about a quote. That is a sentiment that is oftentimes used in America, which is that veterans will be tempted to say, I fought. I put on a uniform. I went to Iraq or Afghanistan or World War I or World War II or Korea or Vietnam so that my kids won't have to. I fought so that they can live in peace. And it is a tempting thought. In fact, in World War II, after American GIs deployed around the globe to defeat Nazis and the Imperial Japanese liberate camps too late in many places but be a part of that. That generation went back to America and said, we did fight the Nazis so the next generation can live more free. But I counsel nobody to say that anymore. And I never say it myself. I didn't fight so that my kids won't have to fight. I fought knowing that my kids will have to fight as well. And maybe that's by force of arms. Lord knows the policy our country has pursued in light of the threats that we face have brought terror to our shores as well. Maybe that will require a rifle, but if not, I hope My children, our three boys, Gunner, Boone and Rex, who are 6, 4 and 10 months old, will be raised to love the Lord their God, raised to love their country, raised to love their state and their community and their family, and to be willing to fight for them all and stand by their understand and know who their friends friends are in this world and have the willingness and ability to stand by them in times easy and tough, in vows, in sickness and in health, the relationship richer or for poorer relationships. The relationship between Israel and America, in my mind, is inextricable. It is one in which we stand side by side, prepared to stand with, with our friends in every way. And today, Jennifer and I and others had a chance to go see the Western Wall of the Temple Mount. The Western Wall tunnels, so much of the Old City. And as you stand there, you can't help but behold the miracle before you. And it got me thinking about another miracle that I hope all of you don't see too far away. Because 1917 was a miracle. 1948 was a miracle. 1967 was a miracle. 2017, the Declaration of Jerusalem, of the capital was a miracle. And there's no reason why the miracle of the reestablishment of the Temple on the Temple Mount is not possible.

Joy Reid (78:00)

I will note that when he gave those marriage vows, this is a man who has not really lived up to his marriage vows, as his own mother has attested. He's been very, let's just say, insincere in keeping those marital vows before God, though he's done them. He's had many baby mamas and many cheatings. But he left out till death do us part. But he apparently, at least according to what he said, believes in that part, too, that this vow, this marriage between the United States and Israel is till death do us part. And that second piece where he names all of the milestones of Israel's creation, including the 1967 war, the 1948 official founding, he then talks about the Temple Mount. And you do realize that rebuilding the temple at the Temple Mount is what is supposed to trigger Armageddon, the battle at Megiddo. It is the rebuilding of the Temple Mount that. That Christian Zionists, that Christian extremists, that the far Christian right evangelicals believe is the thing that triggers Armageddon. You see where I'm going? You have military commanders that are allegedly telling our troops that this is a holy war to reestablish the Temple and that will trigger Armageddon and that Jesus has blessed Donald Trump to do this. The last thing I will note here is that Tim Snyder, who is the expert in fascism, has stated that one potential purpose of this war on Iran might be to provoke a terrorist attack by forces controlled by Iran, people like Hezbollah, in order to create a galvanizing event that could allow Donald Trump to declare a national emergency that would impact the elections, because he doesn't have such an emergency to be able to impact whether we have free and fair elections. And if you think Tim Snyder might be taking it too far, note that Cash Patel, just weeks before we started a war with Iran alongside and hand in hand with Bibi the Butcher, gutted the counterterrorism office inside the FBI, whose job is to protect us from terrorism. It sure does make it feel like they're looking for a galvanizing event for a holy war. Joining me now is somebody that I have I'm so excited to talk with is Ressa Aslan. His new book is An American Martyr in the Epic Life and Tragic Death of Howard Baskerville, who I'm going to ask him a lot of questions about shortly. And he has a new piece in the New York Times entitled the Mistake that Iranians Make About America. And I have questions about that as well. Reza Aslan, it's always a pleasure, so great to talk to you.

Reza Aslan (80:41)

Hi, Joy, it's great to speak with you again.

Joy Reid (80:44)

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I do want to start before we dig into your New York Times piece, one of the questions you asked, the question the mistake that Iranians make about America. And it's a great piece. But do Iranians, in your view, understand how much of this war is being waged by men like Hegseth who see it as a holy war, even though they're claiming the Iranians are the religious

Reza Aslan (81:06)

fanatics, Iranians in Iran or the Iranians in the diaspora? I don't think the Iranians in the diaspora, particularly those in where I live in Los Angeles, which is the largest community of Iranians outside of Iran itself, I don't think they care. Or maybe that's a different way of there's a different way of putting it. It's not that they don't care. It's that they think it's worth it. It's not that they don't care about the civilians in Iran who are going to die as a result of this, about the death and the destruction. It's not that they are unaware of the enormous risks that are involved. And it's probably they're probably aware that very, very likely what will come out of this bombing campaign is more repressive Iran. They just think that it's worth it, just in case. And, you know, I empathize with that idea, with that belief. I mean, this is a community that has struggled with having lost their country for almost five decades, has watched people that they love, friends, neighbors, family members, tortured and killed by this regime. And that does foster a sense of desperation where you just kind of think, well, anything. Anything has to be better than this. But that is a trap, because Iranians have had that thought in the past, as I was trying to explain in the piece, and rarely does it work out the way that they think it does.

Joy Reid (82:36)

Yeah, I'm going to read a little bit from, From. From your piece. And. And it says, in recent days, American and Israeli strikes have largely targeted sites associated with Iran's military infrastructure. The official justification is elastic deterrence, security, stabilization, terms broad enough to stretch around almost any action. The rhetoric around the campaign, however, is clear, as can be. Hours after the first bombs fell on Tehran, President Trump addressed the Iranian people directly, urging them to take over your government after having promised that help is on the way. This was language not of deterrence, but of deliverance. An American president stepping in as Iran's liberator. And you write that this notion of the US as liberator, something that sounds so familiar to those of us who were horrified by George W. Bush and Dick Cheney saying we'd be greeted as liberators in Iran, to me, sounds crazy. Americans know nothing about Iran generally, but Americans. And I doubt Pete Exeth knows anything about Iran. He doesn't seem to even. He doesn't seem to be intelligent enough to pass a general SAT test. Right. So I don't. I doubt he knows it, but he does know that in his mind, it's pretty part of his theology. So talk about this idea that the US Is trying to sort of present itself as a liberator of a country they don't even know.

Reza Aslan (83:50)

Yeah, explicitly. You know, obviously, look, the rationale for this campaign changes with every phone call that Donald Trump makes, because really, he doesn't know. I think it is important to really track the reporting on this. It's very, very clear that what happened here is that Benjamin Netanyahu, who for 20 years has been trying to push American presidents to bomb Iran for his own benefit, not for the benefit of Israel, but for his own political benefit, despite the warnings of his own intelligence community and his own military about the disaster that that would cause both in the region and in Israel itself, has finally found a president who is so easily manipulated that he probably made a couple of promises to him about how quickly this would last, how easy it would be, how once the first few bombs dropped, the Iranians would revolt and take over the government and regime change would immediately happen, and that he himself would be lauded in Iran and in Israel as some kind of salvific character. Some Cyrus the great character. And you know that that kind of language works on this president, as you well know. And one of the most fascinating things that I've been noticing listening to Trump over the last week is how, in real time, he is starting to recognize how he was manipulated into this campaign. Hence the constant changing about how long this war is going to take and what the best or the worst case scenarios would be, etc. Etc. But make no mistake about it, Netanyahu and people around him and the people around Pete Hegseth, and a large swath, frankly, of the Republican political establishment does view this conflict in terms of a cosmic holy battle, a war for the end times, precisely as you say. This is not new rhetoric. This is stuff that we have heard for decades and decades. It's just that every president before this one was smart enough not to get entangled in it, was smart enough to know that we were being manipulated for the personal benefit of the Prime Minister of Israel. But sadly, that's not the president that we have.

Joy Reid (86:17)

Yeah, I mean, we've seen this movie before with George W. Bush. I can remember watching. You could almost see the wheels turning in his head as he realized that the neocons had duped him into a war that destroyed his political legacy, which is why he just draws and does art now. Right. And you see it sort of happening where he says, you know, I'm not pardoning Scooter Libby because he now feels manipulated into going into Iraq, which was a disaster. We tortured people, we committed more crimes. He should have been dragged before the Hague. And he also wasn't the brightest. Right. And so it does feel like the manipulation of Republican presidents is like, it's almost an art and a science among people who want these wars. Can you talk about what it is that will likely actually happen? We saw what happened in Iraq. We ended up turning over Iraq to the Shiites, who were the majority. It didn't really. It made them closer to Iran. What about this? Because Donald Trump is now talking about maybe occupying the Straits of Hormuz, which sounds absolutely batshit to me. What do you think is the outcome here? That's not.

Reza Aslan (87:23)

Just to be clear, that's not a real thing. I mean, look, Donald Trump says a lot of stuff, and just everything he says becomes a headline, and it's all nonsense. I mean, he's just kind of, you know, it's his usual diarrhea of the mouth. Iran is not Iraq. Iraq did not have the national cohesion that Iran does. And so the breakup of Iraq was Obvious from the very start. I don't think that what we're looking at in Iran, even if we go through with this new idea that maybe we should arm the Kur and maybe we should arm, you know, the Balukis, and maybe we should bring in the Mujahideen, a fanatic terrorist cult, into Iran and have them be our boots in the ground. Even if we pursue those policies, the outcome will very likely not be a broken Iran. The outcome will be a strengthened, more repressive Iran. In fact, you know, we keep asking what. What could possibly happen? It's happening already. We're watching it happen in Iran. The Middle has been completely hollowed out, and the most extreme voices, the most repressive voices in Iran have carte blanche now, total control over the country. Particularly now with the election of Mojtab al Khamenei, which is its own other thing altogether, people have to understand that it's very easy to just simply dismiss Iran as a theocracy in move on. But, yes, Iran has this theocratic shell to it, but the true power in Iran is the Revolutionary Guard. They run everything. They are the military, the intelligence. They are entrenched in the economy. They are more than happy to trot out one, you know, cleric after another as the. The figurehead, the face of this regime, while they manipulate the power structures underneath. And they are not going anywhere. If anything, when this bombing campaign is over, and it will be over, Trump will, you know, lose interest. He'll find something shiny and he'll just kind of move on. He'll give himself a parade and maybe, you know, a reward or something, a plaque, possibly, for having liberated Iran. And what will remain? Yeah, what will remain is a much more muscular and explicit military intelligence apparatus, control far more repression, and far less room for any kind of hope for a protest or a groundswell of support for any kind of regime change in Iran.

Joy Reid (90:02)

Yeah, I mean, the sort of sick joke is that we spent, you know, we're spending, what, $200 million to replace Khamenei with Khamenei. Right. You just got to do the younger one and one that actually can last longer because he's young. And so it's been a waste.

Reza Aslan (90:15)

Trump himself said, look, the one thing that I do appreciate about Donald Trump is he. He doesn't have a filter, so he just does what comes to his mind. And the most honest thing he said is that, oh, yeah, the. The worst case scenario is that we leave Iran worse than we found it. And that was just a moment of profound Honesty, yes, that I, I kind of appreciated.

Joy Reid (90:39)

The transparency is actually very helpful. The first time we, we tried this again, experiment, when the Dulles brothers did it in 1953, our genius idea was to put the Shah of Iran on the throne. For 24 years, he absolutely just destroyed his people. He was brutal, he was cruel. And now the new, the new hotness has put his, his son on that seems also crazy.

Reza Aslan (91:04)

Yeah, the, the idea that, you know, Reza Pahlavi, the so, so called, you know, prince in exile, has any kind of standing or foundation in Iran is a fantasy. He's very popular among the Iranian diaspora, mainly because many of his supporters are those who left, you know, after the revolution and so have an idea of pre Islamic Republic Iran as this kind of, you know, fountain modernity and, and secularism, etc. Etc. And so think, you know, they're appealing to, to a nostalgia, a moment, moment of the past, but that, that's a non starter. I think everybody who studies Iran understands that. I think the one thing that is really important to note here, however, is that this conflict is not going to be contained in Iran at all. I mean, already, obviously, we're seeing it spill everywhere, but this is just the beginning. And I think that's the, the warning that was always given about, you know, to every president who ever entertained the idea of an aerial campaign as a means of either regime change or removal of Iran's nuclear enrichment program, that whatever we think is going to happen in Iran will not stay in Iran. It'll spread beyond the region in ways that we cannot even imagine or guess just yet. We're watching that happen.

Joy Reid (92:25)

Yeah. I mean, 19 countries impacted and counting and the sort of threat of Iran bombing, desalination plants, which would be an absolute disaster for Saudi Arabia and others. You know, you talk about the exile community, your own family. You also write about this in your piece Left Iran in 1979, you know, as the revolution took place. And so talk about the exiles, because we've seen some of them show up on CNN and others that seem to be cheering for what Donald Trump is doing, happy about it. And so there's sort of a dual thing, right? The people in Iran, these little girls being bombed in this school. I have to report on it every day because I don't think we can talk about it enough. The horror of what we've done, war crime, probably. But then you also have people who are kind of cheerleading for what Trump is doing.

Reza Aslan (93:14)

Yeah. And as I say, I mean, I get it. I understand the desperation and the frustration of having lost your country, of watching three millennia of culture and beauty, art, poetry, all of that be, you know, just wiped away with this kind of, this face of religious fanaticism, which has never really been a part of Iran's history or culture or civilization. So that you have people like P. Hexith just simply saying, well, Iran, of course, they're fanatics. They're religious fanatics. That's who they are. It's heartbreaking. And I get how that frustration and that desperation and that sadness could lead you to think that perhaps the only way out is for American missiles to start raining down on Tehran. And that as awful as that could be, as awful as it is, that anything is better than the regime that we have today. But that's an emotional response, it's not a rationale response. We all obviously want this regime to be gone. We want it to be left behind in the dustbin of history where it belongs. But the idea that that's going to happen at the hands of some American savior, and this one no less, this man who represents the exact same authoritarian strain that Iranians are fighting against, is a fantasy. And it's a dangerous one. It's a deadly one. Unfortunately, it's one that I think is being forgotten about or at the very least painted over by this kind of wish fulfillment, this fantasy that all the Iranian people need is a little bit of a nudge and they'll take over. Well, we now know only a week or so into this campaign that the exact opposite is occurring. There aren't any protests on the streets in Iran anywhere. There are no people clamoring for the end of this regime in Iran. Why? Because they are being bombarded 247 with death raining down from the sky. Did we honestly think that in a moment of such extreme national emergency that it would be the voices of moderation and progress and reform that would rise to the surface in Iran? And I mean, the foolishness of that statement speaks for itself. This is heartbreaking to a lot of us in the diaspora because what we are seeing is the, this desire, this emotional desire for change in Iran, very likely result in the exact opposite of what every one of us who have lost our country has been wishing for and praying, praying for for nearly half a century now.

Joy Reid (96:04)

Yeah, I mean, the thing about it is, I still remember back in the Iraq war days, Neo Kant insisting that all it took was a US pushed revolution for Iranians to become our very best friend. Iran should be our best friend and will be Israel's best friend. And they were so confident in that. And it never made sense to me either.

Reza Aslan (96:26)

You know, it's the idea that Iran could change and become once again, you know, a responsible member of the Middle east, an ally to the United States and to Israel. That part is not fantasy. The question is, how do we get there? And as people like myself have been arguing for two decades, the way that we get there is not by a bombing campaign. That only further entrenches the regime and creates a sense of nationalism and a sense of patriotism and unity in the face of external attacks, especially coming from Israel. The way to actually get change is through the opposite, by opening up Iran, by giving the people an opportunity to actually live as middle class citizens, people who have an opportunity to have interdependent trade relationships with the rest of the world, a free and open market, the ability to actually create a carrot and stick situation with the Iranian government so that we can actually punish them for their bad behavior in the region. We don't have any ability to do that at all. Except for raining missiles from the sky when we've already talked about the uselessness of that.

Joy Reid (97:44)

Absolutely. I mean, what we did with China, right? People used to consider China just unthinkable. The idea we'd have trade relationships and look at that happen. And I mean, even the President Obama, they did try the diplomatic way, which seemed like an opportunity. I want to talk about.

Reza Aslan (97:56)

It worked. Can we just for a minute, enough of this like, just rewriting history. Okay? The. The nuclear deal that Obama created with Iran, which miraculously brought China and Russia, Russia to the table. Two countries that have absolutely radically different notions about Iran and their relationship with Iran than the United States. As it is a fact that that deal worked. It removed Iran's ability to have any kind of nuclear capabilities whatsoever. That's a fact. That's not an opinion. That's the IAEA speaking, that's NATO, that's the eu. And more importantly, it was the first moment in, in which the possibility of the space for reform opened up in Iran for 20 years. And of course, that immediately was shut down by Trump. And this is the result.

Joy Reid (98:51)

Let's talk about one of the definite outcomes of this nightmare and this madness is the gross Islamophobia that is compounding what we already were seeing from the Zorhan Mamdani victory in New York. You now have people like, I'm reading Representative Andy Ogles, who you can never say this about almost anyone else and survive in Congress without being censured. He literally tweeted, muslims don't belong in American society. Pluralism is a lie. We've had other members of Congress, you know, use horrific terms when it comes to Muslims. We've had a radio host, Sid Rosenberg, referred to the, the democratically elected mayor of New York City as a cockroach. Welcome back to the post 911 era.

Reza Aslan (99:38)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I wish I could say that this was, you know, surprising. It's not surprising. This is what we do as a country, and particularly in the MAGA base. This is a fairly institutionalized view. And it's not just really, it's not just Muslims. You know, it's Mexicans, it's brown people, it's Jews. You know, this is a, a fairly standard way of identifying oneself. You just create an imaginary other Muslims, brown people, Middle Easterners, whatever, and then you just define yourself against that imaginary thing that you created. It's what we do as a country. It's not unusual. You said it yourself, it's post 9 11America again. What I do think is important is that this kind of rhetoric is specifically designed to lay a foundation for what could be an extreme acceleration of this bombing campaign. I mean, you know, Trump keeps saying these sort of throwaway lines where like, you haven't seen anything yet. It's just going to get worse. We've got something big planned, et cetera, et cetera. And because again, he talks nonstop, we tend to just ignore the nonsense that comes out of his mouth. But every time he says something like that, I think a shiver should run through our spines. Because the more he continues to allow the entirety of the Iranian people to be dehumanized by the rhetoric that is coming out of his White House and out of his base, the more we are going to just allow and justify this bombing campaign really becoming something that we haven't seen in the United States for decades and decades.

Joy Reid (101:18)

Yeah, well, not only that, but I worry about repression at home. I mean, Tim Snyder, who is an expert on fascism, has said, hey, be aware that this could be an attempt to demonize Muslims in such a direct way that we can have more repression at home based on national security. We've had this attack on a anti Muslim Muslim protester was a January sixer in which the men who are the people who are arrested have been claimed to have, you know, given their loyalty to isis, even though there's no evidence they were in any way connected to that terrorist group. Even the mayor has released a statement saying, you know, we will not tolerate any of that kind of sort of pro terrorist activity in New York City. I feel us going down a road that toward, you know, the genuine, I mean, an expansion of the repression we saw after 911 domestically.

Reza Aslan (102:09)

Oh, no question. And again, let's take this president at his word. I mean, he has mused openly about how to nationalize or federalize this election or how to get Republicans to take over. He's tried everything that he could to, you know, get out of the fact that he are very unpopular right now, that this war is profound. And I think, you know, for those who say, oh, we're just fear mongering when we talk about, you know, these kinds of ideas about declaring martial law or you know, using security as a means to nationalize the elections, etc. Etc. That, oh, we're just, we're, it's Trump derangement syndrome. I mean all we have to do is look at the man's actions and know that this is not out of the realm of the possible. Not by any means.

Joy Reid (103:03)

Yeah, let's talk about your book. I want to know everything there is to know that you can tell me in a short period of time about Mr. Howard Baskerville. Who is this guy that you have written about?

Reza Aslan (103:15)

Howard Baskerville was a 22 year old Christian missionary from Nebraska who in 1907 went to Iran in order to, to preach the gospel and teach English. And he happened to arrive smack dab in the middle of what's called the Constitutional Revolution, the very first democratic revolution in the entire Middle East. This was a revolution in which young Iranians were pouring out onto the street demanding a constitution, demanding an actual document that laid out their rights and privileges, their freedoms and responsibilities. Sound familiar? This is a fight that's been going on in Iran, Iran for more than a century. And sort of in this kind of very remarkable turnaround for this kid, Howard Baskerville, it took him a little while, but he eventually abandons his mission, is forced to give up his American citizenship and ends up fighting alongside his students against the Shah for democracy in Iran. And diesel this heroic martyrdom. He is still buried in Tabriz in a city in northwest Iran. He is to this day considered a martyr in Iran. Martyr and Iranian culture is a very elevated title. And to give that title to a 24 year old Christian missionary tells you how extraordinarily how extraordinary this kid is. And this is a kid that I've known, you know, I've known this story forever. This is the first biography ever written about him. But what's remarkable to me about Howard Baskerville is the way that he can become A kind of model for a different way of thinking about America's relationship with Iran. Not the dulles brothers in 53, you know, not Donald Trump and this, you know, bombing campaign, but this idea that we are fundamentally people, that our nationality, our religion, the color of our skin, those things are arbitrary, that all peoples everywhere want the most basic things. And so it is the responsibility of every person everywhere to fight back against the oppression of anyone anywhere in the world. And, you know, he's just this, this character that has lived with me forever, but one that every Iranian know, knows about. I mean, to this day on, on the anniversary of his death, people still gather around his grave, still put flowers on his grave. But in America, somehow, this kid's story has been completely lost. And now more than ever, I think it's a story that we need to know about.

Joy Reid (105:57)

I, I love this story. You know, I love a Hidden figure. It is one of my favorite things is to find characters in history because I think it's a pretty well known, very well read. But I, when, when I miss one, I, I'm so excited to be able to learn about someone new. So I'm really thankful to you for writing about him. I'm going to get to know him. This is going to be a really fun journey. And for those of you who want to read the book, and you know, one of our sponsors is bookshop.org so you can buy from a local bookstore. That's what I would actually love for you all to do is support local bookshops. So do go to bookshop.org it is one of our sponsors. They're not a sponsor tonight, but I'm gonna go ahead and give them some free publicity and just go on at the top and you can pick your local bookstore. So I would love for you all to read this book and then get back to me in the chats. Let me know what you think of Mr. Baskerville, but do it and buy it from a local bookstore. It's called An American Martyr in the Epic Life and Tragic Death of Howard Baskerville. And also you should just read everything Ben Reza writes, because I promise you, and I'm not even just being, being a fan girl, you, you know this because I've probably said this before. I think you are one of the most important public intellectuals of our time. You're so brilliant and such an urbane, calm, soothing, intellectual force that I just appreciate just getting to talk to you. I'm just honored that you would come on my show.

Reza Aslan (107:14)

So thank you so kind of You. Thank you, Joy. Anytime.

Joy Reid (107:17)

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Riz Aslan, everybody. You guys, you got to read this book and read all of his stuff. He is so smart and he will really help you to understand the region in a way that is big picture, that is smart, that is understandable and accessible. Because I think one of the things about sort of public intellectuals, you feel like they're not accessible, but like a Ta Nehisi Coates, right? He's so. He's a Ta Nehisi Coates. That is going to put it where you can get it, where it's not so heady that it goes over your head, but where it's intellectual and smart and we wise and you're really going to love it. So please go to bookshop.org definitely get his book from a local bookshop. Super, super, super important. Yes. Can we get a round of applause? We have a request for a round of applause for Reza Aslan. Jason, if you could throw us a round of applause, we would appreciate it. And so what I, what I also would love to do right now is I want to play you guys a clip. A clip that happened, it actually was posted on James Talarico's social media over the weekend. Oh, Jason. Oh, Jason's not. Jason ain't doing no applause right now. He said he ain't doing no applause right now, but he's gonna do it later maybe. And James Talarico posted this piece on his social media and I want to play it for you and then I want to talk to you guys about it for just a second. Here it is. This is the E1.

Reza Aslan (108:38)

Always been deeply inspired by Jesse Jackson. A poster of Reverend Jackson's 1988 presidential

Joy Reid (108:45)

campaign is framed in my home. I pass it every day when I walk out the door.

Reza Aslan (108:51)

So I was honored when Jesse Jackson's family invited me to attend his homegoing

Joy Reid (108:56)

service and celebrate the life of one of my heroes. As a pastor, he spoke with moral clarity about the need for unity and love. As a candidate for president, he sought to build a multiracial working class coalition

Reza Aslan (109:12)

focused on economic justice.

Joy Reid (109:15)

What he called the Rainbow Coalition. When I look out at this convention, I see the face of America. Red, yellow, brown, black and white. We're all precious in God's sight.

Sean Harris (109:31)

The real Rainbow Coalition.

Reza Aslan (109:35)

That's the kind of movement we're building in Texas. One that brings working people together across

Joy Reid (109:41)

party, across race, across gender, across religion, to take power back for ourselves and our communities. A movement rooted in unity and love is the only way to transform this broken, corrupt political system and fully realize the beloved community. On the way out of Reverend Jackson's service, we saw a rainbow peeking through the clouds. A reminder of Reverend Jackson's dream that lives on even through the storm. So that piece was posted over the weekend, as I said said on James Talarico's social media. It is a sign that he knows that he has work to do with black voters in Texas. I think it was a very smart ad. I think it was the right thing to do. But as I, as I was listening to that, I was watching the chats and Noel and there was, and it was about split down the middle. There are some people who are high fiving that ad and saying it was a great tribute to Reverend Jackson. And then there are other people who are giving that, that ad a lot of side eye. And so here's the question that I want to give you guys as sort of a little homework assignment is, is talk to some of your friends. I'm very curious to know where I have a. Miss me with it not feeling them. There's a. This. We have an. I am supporting. We have a definite side eye. We have a Junior said no politics. Junior did not say no politics. Royal fight. He did not say no politics. His father literally ran for president twice. I think we need to disabuse ourselves of that notion. What Jesse Jackson Jr. People are clipping a little piece of what Jesse Jackson Jr. Said when it came to his father. And the former presidents, they clipped a little piece of it out of context. You can't say no politics when your daddy was literally a presidential candidate twice. An advisor to a president, President Clinton and your brother is in Congress and you were running for Congress and you were in Congress. So the family's very political. I think what he was saying is that his politics went beyond party politics, that his politics were bigger than party politics. Jesse Jackson and that is true. He ran as a Democrat, but he, he, he would even assess the Republican president not positively, by the way. So the reality is taking advantage of the opportunity to attend the funeral was smart. And it was also a sign that Talarico understands where he stands in the group chats. When you go back and you break down Talarico's victory in the primary in Texas, what you will find is that he super overperformed with white voters and he super overperformed with Latino voters. Maybe because his name sounds Latino, but somebody people have been speculating that maybe because Tal Rico sounds like an Hispanic name. I don't think it is but it sounds like it, right? So he o, he, he and he way underperformed with black voters. Jasmine Crockett way overperformed with black voters, but her electorate turned out to be heavily leaning in the early vote part of the election, not in the same day and absentee part of the election. So the opportunity and the challenge for Talarico is that he can't win the general the way he won the primary. He actually can't win the general, Even though almost 200,000 more Democrats voted in the primary than Republicans, despite Republicans having a very contested primary, despite the fact that on paper it looks like Talarico is kind of rolling toward a victory in November. What you need to understand is that he actually can't win the general the way he won the primary. Because if black voters largely sit out the election the way the vibe I'm hearing and seeing among particularly black women voters, if that vibe remains as chilly as it is in November as it is right now, that super performance among white voters, first of all, will not be repeated. Because when it's D versus R, just understand 6 in 10 white voters or more in a Southern state are going to vote R no matter what. There's no. That whole idea that you're going to bring them, that is not a thing. You need your base and the Latino vote that was very enthusiastic about voting, not Jasmine Crockett. They also are not necessarily reliably Democratic voters in a general election. And so this is the project and the question, will black voters shift to Talarico in enough numbers to make it even possible for the insane amount of money that's about to be spent by the Democratic Senate campaign committee and by Democratic donors to vote? I mean, to cut, you know, to get him over the, over the line. Because it would be nice if Democrats could pick up that tent, that Senate seat. It would be great. It would be actually great for black and brown Texans because they, you know, they have terrible leadership in that state. But the challenge is with. Without a substantial win among, it can't just be a tepid, dutiful performance by black voters. He actually can't win in the general without a substantial movement of black voters in his direction in an enthusiastic way. It can't be just a minimum. It needs to be. And. And it's on his campaign to make that happen. That is the, that is the job of his campaign. And then the question is, how does he do that? And I think the fact that he made that ad at least shows that he knows he's got a problem Houston, we got a problem because there's just, it's going to be difficult, particularly with black Texans now knowing that the other side did voter suppression and got away with it in Dallas County. So I see an even mix of we need the seat. The seat's not easy to get. I'm just telling you it can't be done without a substantial, substantial turnout among black voters. So my question that we can you guys can. We can y' all can ruminate on it, marinate on it, and let's talk about it on the next show is what would it take to get you on Team Talarico if you are a black Democrat, what would it take to get you on Team Tal Rico? Because what I'm seeing in the chat right now and what I'm seeing in all the chats is not good. It's not good. But I also want to let you all know and remind you that there are a lot of seats on the table that would normally not be on the table and that the Democratic Senate Campaign committee normally would not pay attention to in the South. I introduced you to two of them tonight, Democratic DCCC and sec. That Georgia seat, which is Marjorie Taylor Greene seat, National Democrats. Are you going to put some money in there? And if you put money in there, put money to do what? Because the Obama campaign in 2008 was not just a great vibesy campaign that had will. I am doing hip hop. They literally went door to door and pulled every potential voter out of the house, off the couch and into that election and did not stop relentlessly until everybody who could possibly vote, voted. America is a low voting country and in the state of Texas, we know there was maybe a million black votes left on the table that they didn't vote that are still available. Potentially, if done right, you could get them to come out, but not if black folks feel like Jasmine was done dirty. I'm just saying it out there. Kentucky, the other race we talked about tonight, very important. People are like, oh, nobody can win that race in Kentucky except they got a Democratic governor. Bashir Andy Beshear wasn't supposed to be able to win. His daddy wasn't supposed to be able to win. It can be done if you have the right campaign and if you have the right strategy. And the strategy has to be to not just give the right vibration and the right vibes, but to get the actual mechanics of getting voters out of their house, off their couch and into the polls. What would it take to get you to do that? And there is, remember, there's going to also be a lot of disinformation designed to try to get you to not vote. And there's going to be a lot of voter suppression. So you're not even just talking about voting for your second choice. If you're a Jasmine Crockett voter, you're talking about doing it in the face of what is sure to be very serious voter suppression. People asking, have Tyler. We've invited him before. He is absolutely invited. We will, we will. We will keep trying to make that happen. But this is a breach and we just have to be honest about that. But there have been so many near misses when it comes to black candidates that this is just one of them. And I think we need to ask ourselves why these near misses keep happening. And it's not all voter suppression. Some of it is the, the voter suppression that, that, that is maybe me maybe doing to ourselves. I'm just going to give you guys a quick list of candidates who got real close. Andrew Gillum, Stacey Abrams, Gary Chambers Jr. For Senate in Louisiana, Charles Booker, the first time he ran and lost in the primary by like 16,000 votes. In Kentucky, Mike Espy, who lost by 4 points, 4 percentage points. In Mississippi for Senate, Jamie Harrison, who raised a hundred million dollars and couldn't beat Lindsey Graham, who everybody dislikes, supposedly Sherry Beasley, North Carolina, who should have won that race, didn't Mandela Barnes, who should have run his race in Wisconsin, is trying to run again. Jasmine Crockett, this is a trend and there's something that's not going right when it comes to getting these candidates over this, over the top. I'm just gonna say I'm gonna leave it there. I appreciate you all watching. We're not. We're not. My moment of joy tonight is a moment of assignment. I want to know, and y' all come back on Wednesday and tell me if you are in Texas or even if you're not in Texas and you would be a theoretical supporter. What would it take? What do you want to hear? What would you need to hear to get on Team Talarico? If there's anything that could get you on there, you can also say that, too. That is our question. And we will, we will come back and we will ask you about that on Wednesday. And in the meantime, my moment of joy is I love you guys. I appreciate you. Thank you so much for watching the Joy Reid Show. Have a wonderful, blessed and beautiful night and we will see you all on Wednesday. Good night and don't forget to subscribe and like, bye.

Sean Harris (121:32)

Getting back to the basics grassroots level Let me dig a little deeper with the shovel Plenty can't tell the forest from the trees and I'm hard to detect Like a black hole in the dark Injustice anywhere It's a threat to justice everywhere Let me make this clear I got a bone to pick and I'll never fear the threat of poverty they don't want to talk about it they rap the party so I'm a real talk about it for sure.

Reza Aslan (121:57)

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Joy Reid (122:03)

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Reza Aslan (122:05)

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Joy Reid (122:08)

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Reza Aslan (122:10)

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Joy Reid (122:10)

But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway.

Reza Aslan (122:15)

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Joy Reid (122:19)

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