Loading summary
Transcript366 lines
- [00:00]
Joy Reid
I wrote a little song to remind you. Choice hotels get you more of the experiences you value.
- [00:05]
Jason Johnson
The Cambria Hotel's got it all. A rooftop bar. Have a bar.
- [00:10]
Joy Reid
Bring a date, your squad, or even your mom.
- [00:12]
Jason Johnson
Book direct@ChoiceHotels.com.
- [00:20]
Dave Zirin
Okay?
- [00:25]
Eric Benet
Yeah.
- [00:28]
Jason Johnson
All right, everybody. Welcome to the Joy Reach show. Happy Wednesday. Apparently it's Happy Canada Day, according to the group chat. According to the chat, Happy Canada Day says SFL 6. Your Prime Minister Carney rocks. The man was at Toronto Pride. How awesome. Yes. We love that. We got a big show for you guys tonight. We got a lot of going on. But you will notice the thumbnail that our theme is the great Bruce Springsteen song Born in the usa. Because guess what? If you're born in the usa, you get to stay. Ha ha. Eat it. Right wing. By the way, don't forget to hit like and share. Be sure to also click that notification bell. Hit all just to change that algorithm so that wherever you are, wherever you're doing, you get the little notification when we're live. We appreciate that. Don't forget to hit that QR code if you want to be on our list for Run me my Slush money, which is how you can find out when they're giving out the slush fund money. And also tell them, do not give it to January sixers. Give it for reparations. Hello to the lemonades. The lemon readers are in the house. Also, don't forget that our birthday is done. We we finished the birthday month. But we still do have some incredible great products that are on the shop@shop.joyreshow.com including this cute little no Kings number. It's very fetching. We have it in multiple colors. If you want to get something like that, you can go on shop.joretro.com so that's some of the business. Any prayer requests, please put them in the chat. Want to note that the Joy Reach show is brought to you by something that I don't have in my hand? As you can tell. I don't know if Winsome is around, maybe you can bring it back to me because. Yeah, the show's being brought to you by our friends at Mosh. After seeing a loved one's battle with Alzheimer's, Maria Shriver and her son Patrick created Mosh. It is the brain brand created to inspire and educate you to proactively maintain your brain health. Together with your purchase, MOSH funds Alzheimer's research to make a difference for all generations. And in addition to that, they also taste great. Apparently so great that I Cannot keep them in my possession. Oh, look, a Mosh bar for me temporarily. They taste so good that apparently everyone keeps taking them from me. Who keeps taking my moss rant? I feel like we should do a poll. Once you get back to your seat, please do a poll. I want to know who do you guys think is taking these from me? Because they're very delicious. I don't know if it's Jason, if it's Winsome, if it's Nida, or if it's Wangi. One of them is doing it, but I. The one who just gave it back to me is probably the one that's making them. But the bottom line is Mosh bars are not just great. They're great for brain health. And you can get your own so that you can keep them for yourself and no one will take them from you. Just go onto their website and get your own and make your wellness routine effortless. They'll give you 25% off plus free shipping on your first 15 count variety pack, that is. And then they'll also give you 20% off for life on your monthly subscription. That way you can swap the flavors, get the good ones and new ones that you like, switch them, swap them anytime you want. And then, of course, again, Mosh donates a portion of the proceeds from every order to women, the women's Alzheimer's movement, because two thirds of Alzheimer's patients happen to be women, and Mosh is working to close that gap. So it's brain fueled with a purpose. We love that. Find your favorites. Get your own variety pack. Go to mosh life.com read subscribe today for 25% off your first variety pack. 20% off your monthly subscription. Use the code READ. That's 25% off your first pack. 20% off your subscription of brain boosting bar delivered right to your door. Start building your health into your everyday with Mosh bars.
- [04:06]
Dave Zirin
There you are.
- [04:06]
Jason Johnson
Thank you, Mosh, for supporting this episode. I think I'm gonna hide this one. This one is. Oh, this is my favorite one, Cookie dough Crunch. I'm gonna hide it. There's a peanut buttery one that is the one that disappears the past. I've never had any because that's the one I can't find. But anyway, thank you, Mosh. We appreciate y'. All. So the right wing is fully crashing all the way out over the supreme court's minimal de minimis 6, 3 ruling to, I don't know, not rewrite the 14th amendment. Because apparently John Roberts at least can read. Just a reminder here's what Section 1 of the 14th Amendment says. It's like the first part of the 14th Amendment, it's pretty straightforward. If you can read. It reads as follows. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States. Nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law, nor deny any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. That is pretty straightforward. And you must note, as I've mentioned before, and we'll mention again, that this amendment, the 14th amendment was not about immigrants. It was about enslaved black people. And recall that African descendants were the only people who were allowed to be enslaved in the United States. And there was a previous ruling from the Supreme Court that said that slaves, black people could not and were not, could not be and were not citizens. And so to correct that Supreme Court ruling that said that African descended people could not be citizens, the 14th amendment opens with saying, yes, they are citizens. The 13th amendment ended slavery and said you cannot enslave people unless they're in prison, which is a problem. And the 14th amendment says, hey, these people are citizens. And, and you cannot pretend they're not. And they are then subject and they have to. The laws of your state have to apply them, that all the rights therein of citizenship apply to these people. And they meant black people. Okay, so after that it also came to apply to immigrants. But it, but let's just be very clear. This was the corrective to slavery and to the Supreme Court's Plessy vs Ferguson ruling which said, or that said they're not citizens or not Plessy versus Ferguson, it's a previous ruling that said they're not citizens. It says they're okay. Just to be clear on that. Just so that we're very clear, that's what it's about. But don't tell anybody to tell the right because they're very mad about it. I want you all to listen to the official state media response on Fox. Plus Texas Republican pro hanging, soon to be ex Congressman Chip Roy.
- [07:03]
Joy Reid
There are plenty of countries that used to have birthright citizenship and have restricted it. Let's put them up on the screen. The United Kingdom, Australia, India, Ireland, New Zealand.
- [07:14]
Ellie Mustall
They've all done it, so why not the United States?
- [07:18]
Olivia Troye
Yeah, you're exactly right.
- [07:20]
Jason Johnson
And there was a lot of conversation
- [07:21]
Olivia Troye
about this during the actual arguments over
- [07:23]
Jason Johnson
this, too, saying, listen, there are a
- [07:24]
Olivia Troye
lot of countries who recognize this was not to their benefit. You heard some really strong language in the dissents, like Justice Alito saying, this is a national security issue.
- [07:32]
Jason Johnson
Somebody could come here from a country that doesn't like us, have a baby, take that child home, and raise them to hate the US and then they could freely come and go on a U.S. passport and with U.S. citizenship.
- [07:42]
Eric Benet
The first thing I saw, the decision,
- [07:44]
Jason Johnson
which I don't agree with, okay, now we step up enforcement. We step up more enforcement, even though
- [07:50]
Joy Reid
we're doing record amounts of enforcement now,
- [07:52]
Jason Johnson
we need to do more.
- [07:53]
Joy Reid
From a Department of justice standpoint, it's obviously focusing our prosecutors and our law enforcement partners on birthing tourism, and it's a booming industry. And it will continue.
- [08:03]
Jason Johnson
It will continue.
- [08:04]
Joy Reid
Given the Supreme Court's decision yesterday. Well, one of the things we're going to have to do is just continue to enforce the border law. This was a very disappointing ruling from the Supreme Court. Of course, we respect it, but we also think that it was a major, major mistake, as Justices Alito and Thomas pointed out. You know, one of the things that might invite Laura is people to come here, quite literally on a vacation, give birth, and then all of a sudden, the child and their family have the full benefits of American citizenship. It's just a preposterous ruling. And the absurdity of that outcome suggests why the Supreme Court should have went the other way.
- [08:37]
Jason Johnson
I think the President was spot on on this, and the Court is absolutely dead wrong on this situation. If you look at the. The reason for the 14th Amendment, again, this is way outside what has happened, especially with China and the Chinese, their, their tourist visas, that they get to come into the United States or into our territories just simply to give birth. They'll come in in the eighth month, maybe one, two, three weeks left, give birth here, have a. Have a child, then they move back to China, raise a person underneath the communist regime, even though they have. They're a citizen of the United States. And they come back over here, and in some cases, we see that they go to their universities, they're stealing intellectual property, and it's absolutely been a national security issue. This is truly a national security risk that we're having.
- [09:21]
Ellie Mustall
Look, I can tell you right now
- [09:23]
Jason Johnson
that for the decisions I have remaining in my time in Congress in this term, for the remaining of our funding
- [09:28]
Ellie Mustall
decisions and appropriations for whatever we're going
- [09:31]
Jason Johnson
to do in reconciliation, we better fix this.
- [09:37]
Ellie Mustall
This Congress better fix this, because I
- [09:40]
Jason Johnson
have no interest in continuing to fund
- [09:42]
Joy Reid
the operations of a government that has
- [09:44]
Jason Johnson
been undermined by the United States Supreme Court. So you have to. Are we banning pregnant women from America? Are we banning foreign pregnant women? Well, what I'm saying, Jesse, is that you have to now think very carefully about who you let into your country, even on a temporary basis, because the possibility, as you said, for birth tourism.
- [10:06]
Olivia Troye
Right.
- [10:06]
Jason Johnson
The idea that people come here just to have babies on American soil, and that baby gets to be a citizen for life.
- [10:12]
Joy Reid
So you have mothers that come in
- [10:13]
Jason Johnson
fully pregnant, have a baby, go home, and again, that baby gets Medicaid and that baby gets welfare, and the baby gets cash to speak assistance, and can send, you know, leave the baby with, you know, a cousin, a relative, whatever, and then to send welfare checks back home. You can support a whole family in the Third World. So, yes, you can't have the kinds of immigration programs other countries have when you can just have a baby here.
- [10:37]
Joy Reid
And now that child is an American citizen. So there's a lot of things we're
- [10:40]
Jason Johnson
gonna have to take a hard look at, Jesse.
- [10:42]
Eric Benet
Yeah, they can even get.
- [10:44]
Jason Johnson
Or they could become Secretary of State, like Marco Rubio, our Secretary of State, whose parents came from Cuba. They were not Cuban refugees. They came in 1957, before the Cuban Revolution. They flew here on a plane. And they were not citizens. They were permanent, legal permanent residents. They were legally in the country, but they were not citizens when he was born. So our Secretary of State, under the ruling that they wanted, could not have been a citizen. And the Supreme Court case, I was trying to remember using my menopause brain, was Dred Scott v. Sanford, which was in 1857. And that 1857 ruling said that enslaved black people were not citizens. But later on, that ruling came to apply to immigrants. And so the reality is, yes, Stephen Miller, people like your grandparents who came here as immigrants became citizens due to birthright citizenship. The reason you're a citizen is because your grandparents were allowed to stay and reside here. And when they had children here, they were citizens. Donald Trump's grandparents, who were not citizens, came to the country eventually. They had his father and his mother actually, actually was a foreigner. Right. Donald Trump's mother was in Scotland. So immigration is just part of the way that the country was formed. But the 14th amendment is very clear. It's written in plain English. It's one of the amendments that's the easiest to understand because it's just written in plain English. It says if you're born here a citizen, they had to Correct. The fact that enslaved people were literally bred like cattle born here and yet were not considered citizens in 1857, that is like less than a decade before the Civil War. African people, African descended people were not considered citizens even if they were born here and their parents were born here, their grandparents were born here. So, so there you go. Melania Trump's parents weren't born here. She's a citizen. She was naturalized in. Her son gets to be a citizen because birthright citizenship. Like what are we doing here? What's the guy's name that wants to run for, that's running for governor of, of Ohio? Vivek Ramaswamy. Neither of his parents were citizens when he was born and only one of them later became a citizen. So if you get rid of birthright citizenship, you could just deport him, denaturalize him and say he's not a citizen. Do you think that, that Ramaswamy is a citizen? I mean, I think he is because I believe in birthright citizenship. You could just go on and on. So they're crashing out. They're getting Mary mad. There was even a guy that I won't even play because why gave him the publicity, whose name was Vitality of Vidar. I don't know what his real name is, where he was saying we should forcibly expel non white people, pass a re migration act, take all the non white immigrants, expel them and seize their property via eminent domain, which would also violate the 14th Amendment. It says you cannot violate people's property rights. Based on. Anyway, just for context, Vidar, for that guy who named himself that, that is the silent avenging God of Norse mythology. Meaning you should move to Norway. If you, you, your, your family are immigrants and you should just go to Norway. That's a white country. You could probably be more comfortable in the whole birthright tourism thing, which is interesting, which I can tell you if you don't watch a lot of Fox, is a major narrative over there. Huge narrative. Because they're really trying to convince their 90% white mainly, you know, over 70 audience that there's huge, tons of people coming from Africa and from China and from the Middle east who are coming here for birth tourism to have children and then collect welfare. And they're all collecting welfare and voting right and which is not unlike. They're actually coming here and working, getting jobs, starting businesses and paying taxes. They don't believe that. They think that all of these tens of millions of people are flooding into the country just to get welfare benefits, which doesn't make Sense, but that's what they think. But there is an issue of birth tourism. That is a real thing that happens. It's just not only from the countries they think it's from. I want to play you this NBC News piece. This is a report from 2018, back when the President of the United States happened to be Donald Trump. Take a listen. These Russian women all came to Miami to give birth. As a result, their babies are American citizens. That's right. Russian mothers, American babies. I'm such type of mom who want to give her child the best what I can do. And the best is an American passport to give birth in Miami, a status symbol.
- [15:11]
Joy Reid
Back in Russia, while the practice is
- [15:14]
Jason Johnson
controversial, it's perfectly legal. The 14th Amendment to the Constitution makes anyone born on American soil an American citizen. If American citizen, American passport is a big plus for the baby, why not? Among the pluses, these kids will have the right to live and work here, receive social services, and when they turn 21, they'll have the right to sponsor their parents for an American green card.
- [15:41]
Joy Reid
We're the only place just about that's
- [15:44]
Jason Johnson
stupid enough to do it as a candidate. Donald Trump called for an end to birthright citizenship, declaring it the biggest magnet for illegal immigration.
- [15:55]
Joy Reid
You want to get rid of birthright citizenship? You have to get rid of.
- [15:58]
Jason Johnson
Yes, you have to.
- [15:59]
Joy Reid
What they're doing, they're having a baby and all of a sudden nobody knows.
- [16:03]
Jason Johnson
You have no choice. But ironically, condo buildings bearing the name Trump are among the most popular for Russian birth tourists. Willing in Trump Palace. It's very popular place.
- [16:17]
Joy Reid
And housing in buildings with the Trump name are advertised by birth tourism agencies catering to Russian clients.
- [16:25]
Jason Johnson
Some packages, including medical care, cost over $100,000 for a several month stay. In Moscow, we found an agency openly advertising American citizenship. It's called Miami Mama. The company estimates they bring around 100 Russians here every year. I wonder why the right isn't concerned about Russians who are one of our biggest. I mean, Russia is one of our biggest adversaries in the world. Right. They were our opponent in the Cold War. There doesn't seem to be a lot of concern trolling about Russian women who literally are signing up with agencies in Moscow, coming over here seven, eight months pregnant, having the baby here and then getting all the benefits that Stephen Miller is crashing out that Somalis or Haitians or Chinese people might get. I wonder why they're not crashing out over that. I'm going to noodle on it. I'm going to try y' all noodle on it. With me. Let's try to think about it. Let's, let's, let's do, let's sort of collectively kind of workshop what it is about these Russians that don't, that it doesn't bother them. Right. It doesn't bother them that all those white South Africans that they brought in and gave them an iPad each full of pro Trump propaganda, probably a Trump bible and some other things. They don't seem to have a problem that they're probably going to have some kids and then those kids will be American citizens. But there's no concern trolling over that. I'm going to noodle on why that might be. Why don't they have a problem with that? Because the Russians been doing this since Trump was in the first time. And let's recall that Russia spies on us, that there have been Russian spies involved in trying to undermine our election and that we technically are in a cold, we're not in a sort of cold war with them anymore because Trump loves them. But they're on the other side of the Ukraine conflict with us. But they don't have a problem with them maybe doing birth tourism. I don't know why I'm going to noodle on it. I'm going to think about it. But the award for the ultimate crash out has to go to a guy named Sean Davis, co founder of the Federalist, which is a right wing sort of news thing, who went full tie me to the train tracks with this tweet. I'm just going to read it to you. So he was crashing out over this completely and he said, let me, let me, let me just tell you, he said several ways forward here given the choice of Roberts, Barrett just, he says, Amy Coney Barrett and Roberts are to blame. He's mad at them to nullify the 14th Amendment. Nullify and extra constitutionally replace it with their own language. No, they didn't. And he said here's option one, nullification, just violate the 14th amendment. States issue birth certificates, then they can just stop issuing them to non citizens. So when you can have a bunch of babies born with just no birth certificate, Robertson Barrett can deal with the federal with the fallout and litigate each birth individually. That's, that's insane. Number two, pack the court. Ooh, so they want to pack the court. Now if Roberts wants to be a politician who writes laws instead of a judge, he could fight with 10 more unelected legislatures in robes. I mean, I think that the left would also like to pack the court. So thanks for affirming that. That's a good idea. Number three, deny entry to all pregnant foreigners.
- [19:27]
Eric Benet
All of them.
- [19:28]
Jason Johnson
Any pregnant person cannot come into the country. Okay. Number four, deny entry to all female foreigners. It'll be like the reverse of at the club where when they only let women in for like the first two hours because they. They don't want a whole room full of dudes, so they just let the women in. They call it ladies night, and then the guys can come in after it's full of ladies. He says, do the reverse. Only let men in. So we only want male. And these are the same people who concern troll that male immigrants are committing crimes and raping everybody, which they're not. But they claim that that's what they're doing. So you say, just let them in. By the way, this used to be the reverse. Nativists in the early 20th century were like, only let the men in, don't let the women in. For the same reason. I mean, they actually did the same thing. They were like, don't let any women in because then they'll procreate. They used to have the same kind of attitudes. So he's going back to that. Just let only women. Only let male immigrants in. That's the next one. Require. Oh, this one's interesting. Require sterilization of all foreign visitors prior to entry. So basically, if you came here to watch the World cup, you first have to get sterilized. Oh, okay. And then number six is a doozy. Dissolution of the union. Just dissolve the union. A nation which cannot restrict who gets to be a citizen isn't a nation. Number seven, amend the Constitution. This is pointless because once a judge decides he can rewrite the Constitution, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, so he says, if you think these options are not great, understand this is what happens when unelected judges decide that they're in charge of the country. I think the only response to that, Jason, is this clip from the movie Stripes.
- [21:05]
Eric Benet
Lighten up, Francis.
- [21:11]
Jason Johnson
Joining me now is our super panel on the results of this rarely not terrible Supreme Court ruling. Olivia Troy is a former White House Homeland Security and counterterrorism advisor to Vice President Mike Pence with more than 20 years of experience in senior national security roles across US government. Today she's a political commentator, national security analyst, and host, author of the substack Olivia of Troy, which I love that name. And our friend Ellie Mustall, senior legal analyst at the Nation, Author of Bad 10 Popular Laws that are Ruining America, which of course is available at the shop@shop.jo henry.com. please buy another copy. People bought out most of your books, Ellie. They sell out really quick. I'm gonna let you go first, Ellie. Rare, non. Terrible decision. Explain.
- [21:54]
Joy Reid
Can we talk about Shaun Davis excluding Melania from the country? Like, what. When. When the hell did that happen? Right. You notice, by the way, before. Before we get into it, you notice how these people's. Their first idea, the very first idea, is some sexist bull crap, right? Let's. Let's ban women, let's sterilize women, let's get under the skirt, look up their hoochies, figure out what's going on here, shut it all down. It's the first thing they can think of every single time. No matter what the problem is, let's stick it to women. It just needs to be said anyway. Yes.
- [22:30]
Jason Johnson
Ellie, you know that these immigrant women get pregnant. Pregnant spontaneously. They just. A baby just pops into them by magic. There's no man involved in that. It's the women. They're just pooping out of bed. A baby just comes in like poo poo, and they just pop it out.
- [22:44]
Joy Reid
It is. It is. It is infuriating that this is how these people think. But nna, yes, the birthright decision ruling is a victory, but a very narrow one. And I've been, like, making the rounds trying to get Democrats to pump their brakes here. The ruling was really 5 to 4 on the most crucial question, the constitutional question, whether or not the 14th amendment means what it says it means. The 14th amendment is incredibly clear on this, and it survived by the barest of margins. 5, 4. Right? So from that perspective, what we already see happening is JD Vance going on Fox News talking directly to Republican voters and telling them that they're only one vote away, that they only need to elect one more conservative justice to get rid of birthright citizenship entirely. And J.D. vance ain't wrong. And so again, you see how the Republicans win these issues at the Supreme Court because they go directly to their voters, and they're saying, hey, is something happening that you don't like out there? Guess what? All we need to do is control the Supreme Court. And that's why you have to vote for me, the Republican. That's why you have to hold your nose. And maybe you got to vote for Ken Paxton. Maybe you don't like Ken Paxton in Texas. Maybe the corruption, corruption and the scandals and the odiousness. Maybe that's not your thing. But, hey, you want to stop these immigrant women from pooping out babies, you got to vote for Republicans, right? Democrats, meanwhile, they're running around like we won something. They're woo hoo, suck it, Donald. Immigrants are welcome. No, they're not. That's not what they said. That's not what the decision said. When you read the dissents, they lay out the exact roadmap that Trump or future Trumps are supposed to follow to get rid of birthright citizenship. And Democrats are patting themselves on the back like we won some great victory. Or while Republicans are going directly to the voters and saying, ayo, look, if you don't like this, you gotta vote for me. Democrats aren't doing the same thing. And then five, six, 10 years later, we're gonna wonder what happened to birthright citizenship. I thought we won that case. Yeah, it's gonna be just like Roe where you have a decision but you don't defend it. And then Republicans come up from behind and they take it from you.
- [24:53]
Jason Johnson
Thank you for saying the Roe piece, because that's exactly what I thought when I saw this decision. So the same thing they've been doing is little by little chipping away at the fundamentals of Roe v. Wade over the course of my lifetime, since high school, until they finally dropped the bomb. But they were waiting for the case to come in just the way they told you to tweak it. And that's exactly what they've done. Let me put up Baji, which is the Black alliance for Just Immigration. They are very much in the center of this fight fighting for black immigrants to stay in the country. And they were like you, Ellie. They said they exhale with caution as the Supreme Court rejects Trump's birthright citizenship executive order. Keep in mind this was just a rejection of the executive order. But as Baji points out, you have to be cautious about declaring victory here because the fight is not over. Let me let you weigh in on that as well, Olivia, because it is very clear from the way that the right is responding to this that they are just refueling for part two.
- [25:51]
Olivia Troye
Oh, I completely agree with that. I, you know, I was very concerned about how this decision was going to go. I actually, I didn't even sleep the night before, to be honest with you. Between waiting for the Mexico soccer game, then following evening, because I'm a Mexico fan and waiting for the birthright citizenship ruling to come out that morning, I was really anxious, given the rulings on TPS and asylum the week before, I was getting increasingly concerned about that. But I will say this, I think this was them testing the waters to see how far they could go. This is a typical, what I would say, Stephen Miller tactic. And this group of people that are really more extreme on the anti immigrant side of the House, he's a heinous individual. I've heard the way he speaks about immigration. This was long debated during the first Trump administration. This has been a long time coming. And so I think this is what they do. They find the loopholes. I think that they're looking at this and saying, okay, we lost this round. Now they're going to go on a whole public advocacy campaign on what happened here, because that's what they do. And I have to say, they do it effectively. They do it effectively for their base. I mean, they row in lockstep together and their messaging is in lockstep. And so my concern is that I could just envision it. Unfortunately, I just have this vision of all these Heritage foundation people, Stephen Miller and all these people going back to the drawing board and being like, okay, let's follow the 91 page plan that Justice Clarice Thomas just laid out in his dissent. Because I actually haven't made it through it because I keep getting like sick whenever I think about everything that's in there. But he did lay out what they were saying. And a lot of these dissents kind of, I feel, are the strategy going forward about what they say in it. And I almost felt like that was the response to them. It was almost like, let me lay out to you what you got to do next time and then just throw it back and see what sticks. And I think that's the way they kind of use and abuse the rule of law right now in this administration.
- [27:45]
Joy Reid
Having been through that, what they really are telling Trump is to split out the two groups. Trump's executive order affected two groups at the same size, same time. One, legal immigrants who are here on temporary status, work visas or what have you, and then two, people who are undocumented who the right calls illegal immigrants. Trump tried to get them both at the same time. And basically what the Republicans on the Supreme Court in dissenter telling them, no, no, no, you got to attack them separately. There's because there's one argument that works for people here on temporary status and there's a different argument that works for people here illegally or without documentation. And if you do kind of dueling executive orders, you got it. You got to isolate each group and come after them and come after them separately. And, and I imagine that again, Stephen Miller, for as odious as he is, he's not dumb. He can read and he's going to read these opinions he's going to see the roadmap and they're going to follow it next time.
- [28:42]
Jason Johnson
Can I just really quickly when you mentioned Stephen Miller and I just had to, I just have to remind folks that his family, his mother's family, the Glossers, were Jewish refugees who arrived from Antipol, which is modern day Belarus. They came. His grandfather, his great grandfather, Wolf Lieb Glosser immigrated to the United States in 1903 to Ellis island with the same thing that he claims is the problem with a lot of these immigrants from Africa, from the Middle east, et cetera. They came with no money, they were poor once they were here and established themselves in the United States, they used family based sponsorship to bring over the rest of their immediate family. And every child born to the Glosses gets to be an American citizen through the exact same system that they say is wrong. But Ellie, I want to bring up the full 14th amendment because one of the great things about some of these amendments is they're short and they're easy to understand. The 14th is one of the easiest to understand. They wrote it very straightforward. As I've seen it, John Roberts has already negated Section 3 because it says that anyone who formerly took an oath who then commits insurrection should not be able to run for office. So they nullified that. And you go through it and the Equal Protection Clauses have been weakened significantly by this Supreme Court. So nothing in here to me feels safe from John Roberts. None of this seems safe. And so if you look at Section one, which is what is at issue here with birthright citizenship, I'm with you. I'm just looking at it and saying what here? Can they manipulate and get away and get past John Roberts so that he can still go to tea parties and get rid of birthright citizenship?
- [30:15]
Joy Reid
And really what you'll find is that there's nothing in here that they can mess with. The language is so clear. All persons born are naturalized in the United States. States are subject to the destruction of thereof are citizens. It says it really clearly. Even Robertson, his majority opinion says it's really clearly. So then what did the sense say? Well, Brett Kavanaugh, he pulls out his Ouija board, which we know Republicans have that special Ouija board that allows them to understand what the founders really meant and nobody else. And he says, oh, actually the people who wrote that meant that it was only to be applied to people who are domiciled in the United States, properly domiciled in the United States. What does properly domiciled mean? Not what the dictionary says it means. Doesn't mean where you live because again, you pull out the Ouija board and say, oh, properly domiciled in the United States means only people who are already citizens can be properly domiciled in the United States. If you're here on a temporary visa, they say that you're not properly domiciled here, even though you live here and work here and don't live anywhere else, they say, no, no, no, that's not domiciled. And that is how they're going to thread this. And so the next federal law that I'm worried about, that I would look for isn't just the federal law that Kavanaugh literally suggests, which is just because, remember, the 14th Amendment language that you just showed Joy is replicated in federal law. There's a federal statute that is just a carbon copy of the 14th Amendment. So Kavanaugh says, first of all, you overturn that right, so you, so you're not running into federal law. And then I think the next thing is to redefine to make a different federal law, kind of redefining the word domicile and what that actually means so that when you go back to the Supreme Court, you can say, hey, according to this new federal law we just made up, this is what it requires to be domiciled. And these people don't mean it. So they don't get the protection of the 14th Amendment. And you take another shot at Roberts and you take another shot at Amy Coney Barrett on that. That's, that's what I think the next playbook is over the next two, three, four years. And again, the fact that J.D. bance, who is the presumptive front runner for 2029 on the Republican ticket, I mean, I'm assuming a lot that we're, like, going to have elections and Trump is going to leave even, you know, the sun is going to come up tomorrow. Like, I'm assuming a lot. But if all that happens, J.D. vance is the presumptive front runner. And so it's significant that it is J.D. vance going on Fox News and telling people, hey, we only need one more vote. Hey, we're really close on this. Hey, we can get birthright citizenship taken care of, because he is the person most likely that is going to have the opportunity to do this going forward.
- [32:53]
Jason Johnson
Well, also, Jay, because the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, can't do it because neither of his parents were citizens when he was born. Can we go to the sort of elephant in the room, Olivia? And that is your people, because they're real fear is they hate the idea of black immigrants. They hate the idea of Somalis, they hate the idea of Haitians. They absolutely hate the idea of any Africans or Asians. But they really fear Latinos. They believe that Latinos are have a plot that they've plotted in Mexico City to come across all fully pregnant to give birth at the Mexico border and flood the country with welfare recipients. That's what they think and that's what they say on Fox all the time, as you would well know. Yeah. What's happen to stop Tom Homan, who said his response will be increased enforcement from simply saying anyone who is a woman or who they think might be pregnant. They could just start doing this at the border. They could start calling people at the border. They're kidnapping people right now. I don't think they're above sterilizing people by force once they have them in Dilley Detention Center. I don't put anything past these people. Is there anything you'd put past them?
- [33:57]
Olivia Troye
No. I mean, we've seen sort of the egregious actions that are being taken in these facilities. We know the amount of documented abuse. We know the neglect. We know a lot that's happening with the neglect in terms of like even medications that people need to survive. And so I think that is an incredibly valid point, Joy. I think, you know, I think, I think they laid off right now because they're reevaluating for the midterms. And especially in the aftermath of Minnesota and everything that's happened in the backlash that they saw, I think that we are seeing them regroup, but I don't think that their policies are going to get any less extreme. I think they are going to come back with a vengeance. And especially, look, if they start to lose power, they're going to enact even more extreme things. And I think that there is nothing to stop them from setting these policies. I mean, look, we've seen this. They're using the cloak of terrorism when it comes to a lot of the homeland security and immigration policies right now, right. When they're trying to prosecute some of these people or they're calling people like renegade, like calling them terrorists or like, you know, things like that. So I'm saying, like, why would they not make up some statute that says, oh, for whatever reason at the border, this is now what we're going to do and we're going to evaluate people and we're going to reject these people based on these premises or this is what we're going to do because we're Trying to control population. I mean, this sounds insane to say it that way, right? When we think of this as a United States of America. But we are seeing a lot of insane things happen in reality coming to fruition every single day.
- [35:29]
Jason Johnson
Please.
- [35:30]
Joy Reid
But can I also add, when you say, joy, that they're afraid of Latinos, that cuts both ways. And so it is very significant to me that who are they starting with in the wake of this decision? They're starting with Chinese people, Chinese birth tourists. And they're using the specter of Chinese people coming. And remember, this is a country that had the Chinese Exclusion act that used to. Right. So that there's a long history of racism towards the Chinese people. But the idea is that direct racism towards Chinese people will escape the notice of Latinos. And so that Latinos might say, oh, well, it's great, you know, that 30% of Latinos that refuse to understand who their friends are and continue to vote Republican, that 30% of Latinos might say, oh, well, of course, Chinese birth tourists shouldn't be allowed birthright citizenship. But me, who's done all the right things, who came in the right way, who, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They're not talking about me. They're talking about Asian people. That's what they're trying to do. So that when you have the big case, it is now the person in the center of it is not a Latino, it's not a person from Mexico, it's not a person from Cuba, it's a person from China. And then Latinos are like, well, we're talking about somebody else, not me. I can still vote for Republicans. That's the. That's the twist here.
- [36:52]
Jason Johnson
And if you all think that we're just being conspiracy theorists, I want to show you guys a clip before I let you get back in on this. Olivia. And this was the day before, I believe, the decision dropped, that you were losing sleep over. And this was Clarence Thomas on the Hill, and he is asked a question by a journalist and he does not answer it. Take a look. Justice Thomas, can we ask who you're meeting with today? What'd you say? Can we ask who you were meeting with this afternoon? Which is it? Who are you meeting with this afternoon? Oh, nobody. You weren't meeting with the speaker, you were in. Oh, God, no.
- [37:34]
Eric Benet
So what are you.
- [37:34]
Jason Johnson
What are you doing up here? Oh, just walking. No meetings in particular? None that I'm going to tell you about. Tomorrow's going to be a big day at the court, not final day decisions.
- [37:44]
Eric Benet
Oh, I Guess so.
- [37:45]
Jason Johnson
You want to give us a sneak peek of some of the decisions? Nope. But you can't tell us why you're up here today, who you're meeting with. Who are you meeting with, sir? Were you up here for any particular reason? No info on who you may have been meeting with. Anyone in house GOP leadership, that's who has offices in there. Any matters you were up here discussing. Any comment on today's decisions at the end of the Supreme Court term?
- [38:21]
Eric Benet
We have good questions.
- [38:22]
Jason Johnson
And any comment on the end of the term? You have good questions, you want to
- [38:27]
Eric Benet
answer any of them?
- [38:28]
Joy Reid
Any comment at all?
- [38:31]
Jason Johnson
Thank you, sir. And I believe that was Michael Schnell from the network formerly known as msnbc. Olivia, it. It seems relatively unusual, and you can. You would know better than I, for a Supreme Court justice to be on the Hill talking to nobody, apparently just walking around and not, I don't know, straight strategizing on how to craft the law in a way that would get past his colleagues.
- [38:57]
Olivia Troye
Yeah, that was incredibly strange. And that was actually part of the reason for the nightmares, too, because I was thinking to myself, like, what are they doing here behind the scenes that is happening right now? Does he. I mean, he obviously knows sort of the decision that's coming out. I was also thinking to myself, like, he probably just gave him a heads up so they can enact whatever rollout on whatever propaganda messaging campaign and they can get ahead of it in preparation for what's coming. But, I mean, you don't see Supreme Justices, Supreme Court justices just walking around. Right. You don't see what he's just getting his steps in, getting his exercise. He just decided to go for a stroll in the leadership offices area. I mean, it's just incredible that they think that people are that stupid. And also, I have to tell you, his maniacal laugh, the like laughter, knowing, actually I'm pretty sure why he's being questioned was quite something to watch. Just sort of the demeanor on him. And, you know, I just also kept thinking about the fact that I'm like, yeah, you're walking these halls, the same halls that your wife played a role in where she was spreading conspiracies and engaging and trying to figure out what to do with the election back in 2020 that we all saw come out in documents during the January6 hearing. So, like, I mean, this is who we're dealing with here, right? I mean, that's who I kept connecting the dots with.
- [40:13]
Eric Benet
Yeah.
- [40:14]
Jason Johnson
Yeah. And it turns out the insurrection never really ended. Olivia Troy. Ellie mustall our super panel. Thank you both very much. I will just keep watching and see what other crazy thing they do next. Thank you all very, very much. I just want to note that the other thing that they did was they allowed trans kids to be excluded from playing sports. So that's the thing that happened. And weirdly enough, Melania Trump posted a very interesting Twitter post where she declared her support for the LGBTQ community. Kind of asked by no one, she threw that out there. So that's a interesting thing that happened. Thank you to both of our guests. Want to know that today's show is also being brought to you by our friends at Strawberry Me. You know that feeling when your career looks fine on paper but something still feels like off? Maybe you're stuck, burned out, ready for a bigger move, or maybe you just want clarity on what is next. That is where today's sponsor, Strawberry Me comes in. Strawberry Me matches you with a real career coach, carefully selected based on your goals, personality, and professional background. These are not random Internet gurus. Coaches on the platform average 16 years of experience across 900 plus companies and 37 industries. And most have been leaders, founders, or executives themselves. And what I love, it's not just a conversation. You meet one on one over video. You build a personalized plan together and stay connected between sessions through messaging. When real life challenges come up, most people hit a meaningful milestone within four to six sessions, whether that's landing a new role, getting unstuck, or building confidence, or finally taking action on something that you've been putting off for years. Visit Strawberry Me and start with a coaching trial today. Tell them it was a joy retail that sent you to get 50% off your first session. Thank you to Strawberry Me for supporting the show. Okay, I want y' all to listen to to this very interesting clip. Jason, please roll B1 in Texas is important. Supporting voting in Texas is important.
- [42:09]
Joy Reid
And if any person is doing anything that is not supporting the Democratic Party winning in Texas, I have an issue with it. Whoever you are this pragmatic. We have to be pragmatic. The choices are binary. And I hate even having these conversations where we're talking about, like, you know, how people are behaving or not behaving and statements.
- [42:30]
Ellie Mustall
It's just like, can we just focus
- [42:31]
Joy Reid
on the things that actually matter?
- [42:34]
Ellie Mustall
Wait, I'm confused. What do you, what, what do you mean? Are you referring that to Jasmine Crockett? Do you feel like she's.
- [42:41]
Joy Reid
I feel like the statements I've seen
- [42:42]
Jason Johnson
from her campaign and the statements I've
- [42:44]
Joy Reid
Seen from her haven't been a full throat of support of Tyler Rico saying.
- [42:48]
Jason Johnson
The main thing is that we.
- [42:49]
Ellie Mustall
I think that's unfair. Teddy, I'm surprised to hear you say that.
- [42:53]
Jason Johnson
I've. I've. Why are you surprised?
- [42:56]
Joy Reid
I could read quotes from her.
- [42:57]
Ellie Mustall
Well, because. Because, because one. A few. I mean, I've talked about this ad nauseam, you know, all this week. But if. A few things. If James Talarico wanted her support, he should have been reaching out to her in March. There is no precedent for when a Senate candidate loses or even a. A governor loses as far as running for office, that they campaign. They campaign for that person. James Talarico's team should have been reaching out to her incessantly since March and building. This is not for me. For me.
- [43:30]
Joy Reid
Let me be crystal clear. This isn't about James Talarico,
- [43:36]
Jason Johnson
but it is about James Tall Rico. He's the one running. Join me now is the man who seems very, very confused as I was and they say. But I was listening to the radio when this came on. Clay Kane is an award winning journalist, radio host, political analysts. More than 3 million listeners tune into the Clay Kane show on SiriusXM each week. His latest book, Burn down Master's House, a novel, is a New York Times bestseller. As you all know, because y' all helped make it a New York Times bestseller. Everybody bought us out like we bought it. I don't even know if it's restocked yet. We're gonna try to restock so y' all can sell some more. Hey, Clay.
- [44:07]
Ellie Mustall
Hey now.
- [44:08]
Eric Benet
What's going on?
- [44:09]
Ellie Mustall
Listen, let me say this really quickly. On Saturday, it was Joy and I's first time we've known each other for years but never like hung out at a party. I want y' all to know Joy is a good time. We were laughing and cackling and drinking.
- [44:24]
Joy Reid
It was.
- [44:25]
Ellie Mustall
It was so fun to meet you and hang out and drink and just enjoy life. I just wanted to say y' all should know Joy is a cackle. Joy was joy. It was joy. It was little Joy. Literally Joy.
- [44:35]
Jason Johnson
Let me tell you. We took over Rashad Robinson's house and I live there now. Rashad threw a pride party and we both live at Clay at Rashad house now. Clay, go take one room. I'm take the other. I'm sorry. Lisa, go. Guys are my good sister who's there often. I'm taking your room, sis. I don't know where you go sleep. But we, we had a. No. Rashad is. He is A. He is a hoot. We had a great time. It was so fun hanging out with you.
- [44:55]
Ellie Mustall
It was. We just. I was like, wow, even. And immediately we just couldn't stop talking. So it was so much fun. It was great. It was great.
- [45:02]
Jason Johnson
We had a fantastic time. So, yes, Happy pride to all who are. We're done celebrating. Let's just make it be July 2nd and make the right wings heads expl.
- [45:10]
Eric Benet
Explode.
- [45:10]
Jason Johnson
We'll just say it's pride year and then they'll just be sad all the time.
- [45:13]
Ellie Mustall
Exactly.
- [45:14]
Jason Johnson
But then after, you know, I had to talk to you about. I rolled up to Clay to tell him that I had listened to this show on the radio. I was listening to it in my car and luckily I didn't have to pull over because I was so annoyed listening to this debate about Jasmine Crockett. And this brother was insisting that it was her responsibility to help James Talarico win the election. Who is this man and why are people coming for Jasmine?
- [45:40]
Ellie Mustall
Ted Winn is an amazing, award winning gospel singer and he is also an activist and he's my Friday co host. And I totally disagreed. And I was saying this before, and if I'm wrong, Joy, correct me. I have never heard that there is an obligation for the person who loses the Senate primary to campaign for the other person unexpectedly for no reason. And here's the other thing that I was saying is that reportedly he just reached out to her in June for the Texas State convention. Guess what? We don't even know if James Talarico wants Jasmine Crockett to campaign. Because let's remind people and listen, I want him to win. But just to remind people, James Talarico allegedly called Colin Allred a mediocre black man. We don't know what their relationship is like. So it has been jaw dropping to me and to my boy Teddy. I've known Teddy for a long time. It's shocking to me that the onus once again is on a black woman to be America's janitor or be the janitor for Texas and clean everything up. That is not her responsibility. And so it's just. It's shocking to me that I've seen this. People are saying her ego and how she is behaving and how she is acting. It is up to James Talarico to get the black vote to work for the black vote. I'll give you a quick example. Mandani. When he won the primary In June of 2024, he lost Black voters by 20 points. But I think it was the Next day, he was at the National Action Network. He was on black radio. Then you work for the vote. After that, he didn't call on Adrian Adams or Michael Blake or this is very local in New York, but he didn't call on these other folks to. He didn't call on people on Cuomo. Of course, he ran independent. Help me get this vote. You do the work yourself so the voters could trust you. So I totally disagreed. And I adore Jasmine Crockett. She worked her behind off, and it's not up to her for James Talarico to win. And I don't want folks to blame her if he loses.
- [47:43]
Jason Johnson
Yes, thank you. And I agree with that completely. And there's been. It's not just him. And, you know, he's seems like a lovely person, but we just disagree on this. But it's been a lot of content creators that have been coming after Jasmine Crockett because she has made it clear that she's focused on down ballot races. To my knowledge, and just to be fair to James Talarico, he says he did not call that brother mediocre. He said his campaign was mediocre, but it still came across very, very poorly. Whatever he said did not land very well. And black folks are still feeling some kind of way about what he said and about Jasmine Crockett losing and the way that she lost, the fact that the state of Texas messed around with just that part of Texas and said people couldn't vote the way they normally do in that county. So there's a lot of water under the bridge. But even with all of that Clay, let me put up the Times headline. Talarico is actually polling really well right now. He is polling, and we've seen this movie before because Beto o' Rourke was also polling at some points ahead of Ted Cruz. So this doesn't necessarily mean what we think it means, but at least on paper, he's polling really well. That's the headline. But you know me, I'm a nerd, so I like to go in the cross tabs. So if you go into the cross tabs, Jason, if you could put up that one. James Talarico is leading with women. He's leading with people 18 to 29 who are relatively low, you know, vote share. But he's losing voters over 65 who are very high. You know, they vote a lot. He's losing to voters for Gen X voters 45 to 64. He's losing with them. He's winning with the younger voters, 30, 44. When you look at the demographics on race and ethnicity. He's getting clobbered with white voters. He's winning Hispanic voters, 61, 29, which is good numbers for a Democrat and a reverse of what Trump was able to do. But with black voters, he's doing well, but not as well as he probably needs to. 80, 13. And I want you to focus just for a moment on that 80, 13, because that's a great number. But talk about why. Generally 80% is great, but not usually great enough to put you over the top.
- [49:56]
Ellie Mustall
Oh, yeah. Well, there's also the voter turnout number. That 80% is cute. But what will the voter turnout number be? So we need to see you at that 90% number. We need to see you at that 92% number. I want to remind people, I know this has shook some people, but the data is there. In 2024, 34% of Black men voted for Trump. In Texas, in Texas, 34%. So that means he has a lot of work to do. He has a lot of ground to make up. And I heard Andrew Gillum say this, who ran for governor of Florida, of course, that one of the things that James Talarico should have did as far as it relates to Jasmine Crockett, to get beyond that 80% number that you mentioned, reached out to her in March. Can we do an ad together? How can we get you on the ground? These things cost money. These things. It's a long term investment. And again, the fact that we're having this conversation now as, as Andrew Gillum said, It's a failure. 80% right now in June or July 1st. Well, I guess June when that came out, it really is, it's, there's work to be done and this election is coming right up on us.
- [51:07]
Jason Johnson
It's coming right on my. And just if you could put it, put it back up one more time because I want to just go all the way to the far side of the cross tab here. The challenge that turning Texas blue is because white non college voters are solidly Republican. Ken Paxton is winning them 68, 27. At least according to this poll. Non, white, non college voters. It's the other way. It's flipped. It's 67, 27. So they're sort of canceling each other out. But when it comes to white college voters, this should be another place where James Talarico is running away with it. He should be running away with white college voters who are starting to be gettable for Democrats. But he's splitting those with the likes of Ken Paxton. This and the white vote, because it is about 40 some odd percent of the vote and Latinos are about 40 some opposition, but they vote in very low numbers. You've got to do a lot better with white college voters than that. And then as far as non white voters, if you come a little bit over to the left in that screen, the total non white take for Talarico is 64, 27. That sounds really great, but it's really not great enough. Ken Paxton is doing 59% versus 37%. You've got to, you've got the split. I know this makes this seems like a lot of numbers were thrown at you guys, but it's a math game and you got to look at what are the percentages of white people in Texas. They're about 40 some odd percent and Latinos are a little over 40%. So Latinos are actually the largest number, but they vote in pretty low numbers. White voters voted the highest number. So if you're splitting white voters down the middle, not white college educated voters down the middle, the non white voters who are majority are going to overwhelm you and Paxton will win.
- [52:52]
Ellie Mustall
Yeah.
- [52:52]
Jason Johnson
That is how, that's how Beto lost.
- [52:54]
Ellie Mustall
And I got to tell you, even that, that tied number, 47% that you showed at the beginning, that even concerns me because Ken Paxton is awful. Awful. This guy is despicable. He is fully corrupt. The people of Texas, they know his record. The primary was pretty nasty. He had to go to a runoff. Right. And now, and now it's a tie. That really concerns me. So there is serious work to be done. And you know. Yeah, look at that. Forties with Ken Paxton. I mean, it's, it's, it's the cult of maga. It's the, it's, it's the cult of maga. So there's. Yeah, I'm, I'm concerned and we've been hearing this for a long time. Make Texas blue. Make Texas blue. I pray for my soul that James Talarico can do it. But the work should have been on the ground a long time ago. And he gave a, you know, the Texas convention happened and there was state reps talking how they're, they're, they're concerned. They're concerned. So it is on him. He actually. Have you invited him on your show? James Tyler?
- [53:56]
Jason Johnson
We've tried. He has said yes. And this is the challenge.
- [53:59]
Ellie Mustall
He's joy.
- [54:00]
Jason Johnson
Same thing over here, right? He's not been on your show. He's not been on my show. I don't think he's done Roland or Don. So it's like you're not doing these shows where you could at least talk to black voters. And there are lots of other places, not just ourselves. There are lots of places you could go to do it. But he's not doing that. And he's trying to ride in on this idea that he's going to convert a lot of white Republicans who were. Who are sort of ordinary, sort of normal normie Republicans. Dude, you cannot do conversion. This is a base election. Conversion don't work, brother. You're going to have to get some base voters out. And that means you need to bring Hispanics out that are not down for deportation, and you need to. And, and that don't vote in high numbers, and you need to bring black voters out.
- [54:45]
Ellie Mustall
Well, Joy, you know, it's the Texas version of the Liz Cheney voter. Remember those days?
- [54:49]
Jason Johnson
Yes. I mean, come on now. And, and, and it turned out Liz Cheney, her. The number of people she pulled was two. Her and her dad.
- [54:58]
Ellie Mustall
Exactly.
- [54:59]
Jason Johnson
She didn't have any traction with anybody. She had no base.
- [55:02]
Ellie Mustall
But this is the reason why, Joy, I have not gotten. I'm not outraged like some Democrats are about the Democratic socialists at all, because they are trying to incentivize the base. They're not trying to get the Liz Cheney voter at all. They're not trying to get this imaginary crossover voter. Right. They are focusing on the base. And I, I know folks are going to say, well, that's New York. Well, that's Colorado. Well, that's D.C. well, that's, that's Seattle. Well, we're hitting, you know, I know those are liberal areas, but nonetheless, can we try a different strategy?
- [55:37]
Jason Johnson
It might be Michigan soon.
- [55:38]
Ellie Mustall
It might be Michigan. See, now we spread into a swing state.
- [55:41]
Eric Benet
Right.
- [55:42]
Ellie Mustall
That's. That's interesting. So I really, I really value that. And I'm not a Democratic socialist. I'm not. I'm. That's not, that's not what I identify as. But nonetheless, they're focusing on the base. That's how you win. Not the imaginary crossover voter that I've seen Democrats try and get time and time again, and they keep on losing.
- [56:00]
Jason Johnson
Well, let's go to Maine, because it's the same issue. Again, the concern trolling among Democrats over Graham Platner to me, is one of the dumbest stories other than screaming at Jasmine Crockett because she won't spontaneously insert herself into somebody else's campaign and be like, I'm campaigning for you.
- [56:15]
Dave Zirin
I'm here.
- [56:15]
Jason Johnson
If you didn't ask me. You didn't ask me to come over, but I'm over at your house. I'm gonna cook in your kitchen, and
- [56:21]
Ellie Mustall
I'm telling you I'm not going.
- [56:22]
Jason Johnson
Right. They're like, just insert yourself into his campaign, spontaneously show up on the trail and tell people to vote for it. That don't make no sense. So in the Grant Platner situation here, we have again, there's one poll where. This is a Time Sienna poll where you can see that, Ken, that Collins is leading with all voters, but when you get to the most, sort of the most. The voters who are the most interested in running. Right. Platinum is ahead. He's barely ahead in the Time Siena poll, which is sort of a moderate poll. You can see the breakdown there. He's leading with younger people who are the less likely to turn out. He's losing to older people who are the most likely to turn out. There's almost nothing but white voters here. So this isn't even a black voter thing. There's like, they do white and other. Because there's almost nobody, although there's a few.
- [57:12]
Ellie Mustall
But Stephen King's from. From Maine. So I'm about. I like that.
- [57:15]
Jason Johnson
I like that. Exactly. So this is white on white. Crime is way before some. This ain't about black people at all.
- [57:20]
Ellie Mustall
Exactly.
- [57:21]
Dave Zirin
But.
- [57:21]
Jason Johnson
But he's not being helped by the fact that Normie Democrats are still crapping on him. Dude, this is your candidate. He does not have to be perfect. You don't have to move in with them. You don't have to have him come to your house and live with you. Just shut up and stop undermining him.
- [57:37]
Ellie Mustall
Yeah, listen, what I always said is that it is up to the voters of Maine and he won the primary. He won the primary. So now are we going to support him or not? If this is a chance. I keep hearing Maine is a possibility. And Susan Collins is not going to be easy to beat. She's not going to be easy to beat at all. This is not going to be. That's not going to be an easy one to do. So are we going to support. They won the primary. And this is where I've been confused where I've seen some Democrats get upset over a Democratic primary. I just, it's. I. It's a primary.
- [58:09]
Jason Johnson
And it's also, you know what? They're upset about it. They don't like that the primary is the place where the voters actually have the most power in the general is when they can order you to vote blue. No, matter who and to obey. And then you're just soldiers that have to come out. You know, you're like the front line on the chessboard. Just get out there and die for the king. But when in the primary, we get to be the back row of the chessboard, we get to decide who the nominee is. And they hate that. Democrats just want obedience from their base. They hate their base and Republicans fear their base. That's the difference.
- [58:42]
Ellie Mustall
You know, it's interesting, I interviewed Justin Pearson, who's running for Congress in Tennessee. I. I love that brother so much. He's great. And he said something so interesting to me because he said he welcomes the DSA into the party because they're winning primaries.
- [58:56]
Jason Johnson
I do, too.
- [58:56]
Ellie Mustall
But he said, and I'm paraphrasing here, he said, I don't understand why some Democrats are saying that they're not welcomed. Daria Alisa Mandani is blowing up the party. When we had a party that welcomed the guy from Joe Manchin.
- [59:13]
Jason Johnson
Yes.
- [59:14]
Ellie Mustall
Kirsten Cinema, remember her?
- [59:16]
Jason Johnson
Yeah.
- [59:17]
Ellie Mustall
We had them in the party and there was less outrage over Joe Manchin and Kirsten Betterman.
- [59:23]
Jason Johnson
Betterman's okay. We welcomed Liz Cheney. We. Cheney's the villains from the Iraq war. We said these people who, you know, the daddy committed war crimes to me, as far as I'm concerned, right. You're saying he was welcome in the party but not Democratic. Socialists make that make sense to. It don't make sense.
- [59:41]
Ellie Mustall
And again, he is a Democrat. He's not a Democratic Socialist. I said, exactly. And you get it. You get it. Like, that's what I'm talking about. That I get. We're the big tent, right? We are the big. Allegedly, reportedly, yeah.
- [59:54]
Jason Johnson
A lot of former Republicans are suddenly Democrats and they are completely welcome in the party. One more thing before I let you go, because this is the other issue. I think it kind of. It speaks to what we're just talking about. So there's this leak that exposed who is on the list of this very strange secret society called Dialogue without the ue, that Peter Thiel, the right wing, fascist, white South African who, by the way, is moving to Argentina so he can live outside the tax laws and still run our country from abroad. And they are convening these US Officials, foreign government figures, Silicon Valley executives, lots of Democrats that are a part of this little club. Ted Cruz and Cory Booker, lots of tech people. Elon Musk. It's like a mix of people. Ezra Klein, I'm like, so. So it seems to me that the challenge Is is that the Democratic center is very much willing to embrace the far, far right, at least in a conversation mode. Yeah, but not the left.
- [60:58]
Ellie Mustall
Absolutely. And that's why they are upset when they are challenged. I mean some of the things from dialogue is really some weird stuff. They have like a. A dating segment, a dating thing or whatever. I wonder if Lindsey Graham is in this group. I wonder. Because I'm worried for Lindsay. You know, he's been single of a long time.
- [61:17]
Jason Johnson
I'm worried Clay, he has a bubble wand. If anybody bothers him, he would just use his bubble wall and make them disappear.
- [61:23]
Ellie Mustall
Exactly.
- [61:24]
Jason Johnson
A magical bubble wand. He'll be fine.
- [61:26]
Ellie Mustall
Like Glinda, the bad witch. Anyway. Yeah, listen. This is what elite power looks like now. This is what it looks like. And what's bizarre to me is all these tech bros are involved and all these rich people are involved and you have a leak. How in the world do you have a. You can't keep your own stuff private. And you're the tech bros. You're. You're all this stuff and your stuff is being leaked. And Wired is reporting on this.
- [61:51]
Jason Johnson
You know why? Because it's all. It's all a bubble. AI is a bubble. Their tech bro supposed geniusness is a bubble. It's all all bullshit. We all know it. The people who were told and groomed to call geniuses are really just people who've never touched another human sexually in their lives until they got really, really rich and could, you know, purchase game. You know, it's pathetic. These people are. It's all a lie. Everything they say about their genius is just bullshit. And we're just being told we have to worship them and that they get to run our country for no reason.
- [62:25]
Ellie Mustall
Yep. And we have other than their wealth.
- [62:27]
Dave Zirin
And we.
- [62:27]
Ellie Mustall
If we don't. If we don't bow down, then we're unpatriotic.
- [62:31]
Jason Johnson
And then we're unpatriotic. There you go. Yeah. Clay Kane, one of the. One of the bestest in the world. Everybody where they need to subscribe and pay attention to all the things you do.
- [62:41]
Ellie Mustall
I'm all over social media at Clay Kane. If you're in New York tomorrow, I will be at the New York public library at 6:30pm it's an honor to be there at the New York Public Library discussing Burndown Masters House. It's a free event. You have to register in the main midtown Manhattan New York Public Library. It's going to be fun to discuss that book a couple days before 250 years that we're seeing. I'm going to burn it down in that discussion. So tomorrow, 6:30pm Go to nypl.org to get your tickets. It'll be a good time. Joanne Reed, it's. It's so good to see you again twice in a week. It's so great. I appreciate you, y'. All.
- [63:16]
Jason Johnson
We go back to the Griot. That's the way we've known each other,
- [63:19]
Ellie Mustall
let me tell you. Joy got me a check writing at the Griot. That them articles. No take the bills. I appreciate you.
- [63:29]
Jason Johnson
Appreciate your friend. Take care. Thank you. All right, y'.
- [63:32]
Joy Reid
All.
- [63:32]
Jason Johnson
Clay K. One of the best. Y'. All, listen, that, that we're gonna. You have to read that Intercept story about this leak. It is absolutely the most insane, weird thing and the people who are in it just very odd. Welcome to hour two of Enjoy Read Show. Do be sure to hit like and subscribe. Subscribe. And if you have bought merch, please be sure to tag us in your social media posts. You can tag me at Joann Reed. You can tag the show at joyreadshow. You can also use the hashtag wearing Joy. The hashtag readers. If you bought merch. If you're a Team TJRS member, please throw in the Team TJRS hashtag as well. Do you have information for me? Am I getting breaking news?
- [64:04]
Eric Benet
No.
- [64:05]
Jason Johnson
So we're getting some complaints about the mic. Maybe you want to unplug the mic. Oh, all right. Let me, let me unplug. Also, we redid our poll. Oh, okay. We did a poll. All right. Let's see what, what we got on the poll. It's a repeat of one for the member stream. Okay, so the poll is Jasmine Crockett obligated to campaign on behalf of James Talarico? Yes, she should. And shows solidarity. 19%. No, if he wants her, he should ask 81%. That is where the poll stands as of now. I'm also told, I believe the breaking news is that Senegal lost. Yes, I am very upset about this. Okay, we're going to talk World cup in a little bit, but oh, my God, I'm very upset. Ah, the Jeremy show. A lot of more brighter. Note the jewelry shows brought to you by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I am reaching for every day. We want the lighter fabrics. We want the better materials. We want pieces that feel good, that feel effortless, and they don't cost a whole crapload of money. Let's just be real. Which is why I keep coming back to Quince. I love scrolling on their website. They have beautiful high quality essentials, breathable linens, soft organic cottons, washable silk without the luxury markup. It is that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still super, super easy. Quint has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, tops with style starting at just 32 bucks. Their denim is soft, easy to wear. Their organic cotton sweaters, beautiful, perfect for layering on those chilly summer nights if it ever does get chilly because it's like 99 degrees. Quint works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middleman so that you are paying, paying for quality, not the crazy brand markup. And it's not just clothing. They have everything, y' all from bags, kitchen stuff. They even have like these cute little scrubs for people who work in hospitals that look super soft. I might get some of the scrubs I do actually wear. They're really, actually comfy. Very, very cute. I will tell you some of my favorites that I have saved right now in my shopping cart that will be part of my summer staple wardrobe will be the organic cotton poplin spaghetti strap maxi dress. Don't buy them all before I can hit purchase the 100 European Linen Long sleeve pajama. Super, super, super cute. It's like a pajama set. There's a lightweight cotton cashmere link stitch dome and sweater which is fabulous. Super cute 100 European linen mini skort. It's like a dress but it's a skort. And they even have a really cute one piece bathing suit. I saved it in dark blue. So if you want to elevate your summer wardrobe, go to quince.com joyre for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns which are now available in Canada. And it's Canada Day. Happy Canada Day. It's Q-Y-N C.com joyread for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com joyread hopefully the mic is better. Winston, let me know if everybody's happier with that. So to stay with politics for a bit, I want to play for you. We were talking with Clay about the sort of peevishness of normie Democrats about progressives. Here's what Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal who used to run the lead the Progressive Caucus had to sound.
- [66:53]
Joy Reid
Hey, hold on a second, Troy. It wasn't your microphone, it was the speakers. When you had to speak, your headphones on was kind of going in and out. So it's not your microphones or headphones. It's kind of still doing it, but we'll work out.
- [67:07]
Jason Johnson
Okay.
- [67:08]
Joy Reid
I'm sorry for interrupting.
- [67:10]
Jason Johnson
Yeah, it's always a little challenging when we're in Harlem because, you know, it's not that. It's not the same Internet connection and all kind of other stuff. We love Harlem, but I'm in an old building, and you know how that goes. All right, so, Jason, if you could please play Pramila. Thank you. The people who are saying. I find it really insulting to say that Democratic socialists are just being. Making noise and that they don't know anything. I mean, Josh Shapiro called it performative politics. Performative politics.
- [67:33]
Olivia Troye
I mean, I think you have to
- [67:34]
Jason Johnson
ask, why is it that we've lost so many Democratic voters in these races where Democratic socialists are winning, where progressives are winning, even in very tough swing states? It's because. Because they are bringing voters back who actually see somebody who's willing to stand up and fight for them. That's not performative politics. I think people are sick and tired of the old establishment politics that too many Democrats were part of moving forward, and they're ready for something bolder and they're willing to stand up and elect people who they believe are going to fight for them. At the end of the day, we got to respect the voters. And if the voters, the voter are the Democratic Party, they. They are the ones who elect these candidates. So you believe Governor Shapiro is wrong? I think he was wrong. And I think that there are a lot of very disrespectful comments that are coming from some parts of the Democratic Party that are dismissing the voters who elected these individuals. Why is it that every time a moderate wins an election, people are like, that's the new blueprint for the Democratic Party. But if a progressive or Democrat, Democratic Socialist wins, oh, the whole party's falling to hell in a handbasket. I think we've got to rethink that, and we've got to recognize that people are angry because they have seen this country over a decade move to actually prioritize the wealthiest who are buying elections, not working people. And that means that people are concerned that the Democrats are also prioritizing the rich. This is not hard to figure out. The Democrats are mad, but they're mad. They should be mad at their own selves. And to that point, here is what happened on Tuesday in the great state of Colorado.
- [69:10]
Ellie Mustall
We've got some breaking news, Lyn. We want to bring up the results,
- [69:14]
Jason Johnson
and we can now make a projection that Kiros is going to win this
- [69:20]
Ellie Mustall
seat, which means that the Democratic Socialist is defeating this long time incumbent and will now move on to the general election. Lynn, I mean, it's been quite a week.
- [69:32]
Jason Johnson
This is the third incumbent for the
- [69:35]
Ellie Mustall
Democrats in one week to lose their seat.
- [69:38]
Jason Johnson
Two of them in New York last week and now this one. We will not wait to abolish ICE and pass Medicare for all. We will not wait to put an end to the politics of the past, to get big money out of our politics and to reject corporate PACs at APAC. And no, we will not wait to end the genocide in Palestine. So that is Melat Kiros who defeated Diana Deget. Actually very lovely, nice person, but you know, a moderate Democrat in the great state of Colorado. So Milat Kiros will now be the Democratic nominee in that district. And I just want you to peep the demographics of the Milot Kiros celebration. Take a look. Okay. We could turn that on because the song started. Yeah, young. And this is what the Democrats are missing. It is young voters. Both in New York, in D.C. where the New mayor is a Democratic socialist as well. And now in Colorado, it is young voters who typically do not turn out in large numbers. The young voter is typically the couch voter. And they always tend to prefer the more liberal candidate, but they generally don't turn out in enough numbers to make the liberal candidate win. That is changing. They now are turning out to match the preferences they show in the polls. And that is why these DSA candidates are winning. These are not candidates who used to be Normie Dems that are switching sides. These are people who generally probably don't vote at all. The DSA is fake fishing from the couch, not from the sort of stayed Republican Democratic base. And that is why they're changing things. And by the way, this probably is soon about to happen in Michigan too. Let's play this from Abdul EL Sayed, who is running for Senate in Michigan.
- [71:55]
Joy Reid
I'm not dangerous if you need government to work for you.
- [72:02]
Eric Benet
I tell you what,
- [72:05]
Joy Reid
I sure am dangerous. If you're one of those folks who's a corporation or a special interest or
- [72:10]
Eric Benet
a politician who does their bidding, who's
- [72:12]
Joy Reid
stopping government from working for you. So yeah, if you're Chuck Schumer, I'm dangerous. If you're aipac, I'm dangerous.
- [72:26]
Jason Johnson
If you're a Coker pack, I'm dangerous.
- [72:27]
Joy Reid
If you're Blue Crossman Shield CEO, I'm pretty damn dangerous. I for sure am dangerous. But if you're somebody who needs government to work for you, I aim to be the best friend you ever had.
- [72:45]
Jason Johnson
And that is what Normie Democrats are afraid of. It's not just Republicans calling that guy dangerous. It's also Normie Democrats. It's such bad strategy. And if you want to get to why Americans on really both ends of the political spectrum are fed up, I want you all to listen to a guy named Troy Nels. He's a MAGA Texas Republican congressman who was approached Tuesday on the steps of Capitol Hill by a reporter from an outfit called Migrant Insider. The reporter's name is Pablo Manriquez. And take a listen what Troy Nell said.
- [73:17]
Olivia Troye
How do House Republicans make the case
- [73:19]
Joy Reid
that you're fighting for affordability when you go back to your districts?
- [73:23]
Jason Johnson
Affordability, we talk about it. Well, affordability is I'm going go there tomorrow. I'm going to well over the fourth. I'm going to give me a couple big lobster tails. I'm going to get me some nice ribeyes. I'm going to sit in my backyard with my family, my neighbors, and we're going to be enjoying the 4th, celebrating 250 years, the birthday. We're going to be celebrating the greatest president, my lifetime, Donald J. Trump. Maybe watch some fireworks. Won't be up here.
- [73:51]
Eric Benet
It's going to be too hot.
- [73:51]
Jason Johnson
Hot, right. And I'm in bed at 11 o'. Clock. I heard the fireworks. Ain't going off to 11 o' clock Eastern on the 4th of July. I probably have to sleep through that one. But listen, everybody understands you're going to see a little increase in energy prices because of Iran. I mean, come on, people aren't stupid. You realize that when you have a conflict, Iran. But I think in the end, the short term increase in some of the costs of energy, you know, gasoline and stuff, is temporary. But President Trump has made it very clear to these companies, don't be gouging no price gouging. Did he now? Was it clear, Troy? Did he?
- [74:25]
Ellie Mustall
Let's explain, Mr. President, about the latest inflation number which came out this morning.
- [74:30]
Joy Reid
Could that be it?
- [74:30]
Eric Benet
No, I love it.
- [74:32]
Jason Johnson
The numbers were great. You know what I really love? I love the inflation. You know why? Because as soon as this war is over, you know, I can say it now, something it did not. You know, we've been taking out millions of barrels of oil. Nobody knows it.
- [74:48]
Eric Benet
You know who doesn't know about it?
- [74:49]
Joy Reid
Iran.
- [74:50]
Jason Johnson
Until right now.
- [74:53]
Joy Reid
We took out the other night, 22
- [74:55]
Jason Johnson
ships late at night with no lights because they don't have any radar because we blasted the crap out of it.
- [75:01]
Olivia Troye
We took out.
- [75:02]
Joy Reid
That's why oil is $85 a barrel.
- [75:04]
Jason Johnson
I mean, you take a look. Okay, see now he did not say that. No price gouging. He said he loves the inflation. Troy, y' all ain't in good shape either. This is why even at their least competent Democrats are still beating y' all in special election after special election. And so therefore, when these DSA candidates win the primary, that's why they're going to win these general election races. Because y' all are terrible. And people are sick of the unaffordability in the country that is being exacerbated by this stupid war. They're also sick of the foreign policy. Let's listen to AOC talking about a bill that she sponsored to try to siphon off some of the money we're spending on bombs and bring it back
- [75:46]
Joy Reid
to the US in the NDAA about offensive and defensive aid on Israel. Why was it so important to have this amendment be discussed and debated in, you know, during the NDAA process?
- [75:59]
Jason Johnson
You know, I think this, this is
- [76:00]
Dave Zirin
where frankly the American people are at.
- [76:02]
Jason Johnson
I think after witnessing US Funded weapons help perpetuate a genocide of Palestinians, I
- [76:11]
Olivia Troye
think that people want to see more
- [76:14]
Jason Johnson
accountability into where public taxpayer dollars are going. And again, this isn't, you know, and this isn't just about Palestinians. I've also introduced amendments regarding Brazil, Colombia and, you know, Bangladesh and US Commitments to democratic, you know, democratic, not just Democratic party values, but democracy values, small
- [76:37]
Olivia Troye
D Democratic values across, across the world.
- [76:40]
Jason Johnson
And there you go. I mean, this is not a radical message. Nor is Abdul Sayed's message radical. Nor is Ms. Kiros message radical. The American people are sick of seeing all our money going to fight wars overseas, to kill brown and black people and to kill Muslims and Arabs and kill anyone who doesn't agree with the far right or whose land Israel wants to take. We'd like to see that money spent on health care here, on making our roads and bridges decent so we don't bust our cars up trying to drive over them. On having, being, being able to afford rent here, being able to afford housing here. You know, we'd like to see the focus of our government be on making life affordable and decent. And here it's, it's hilarious, as someone said in the, in the comments, that people think that undocumented people are racing over here to get free health care and free welfare here. If you wanted to get really great health care, you'd go to Canada or Europe. Canada got, is the one that's got the affordable health care we don't to come over here to have to not be able to get Medicaid because they're denying everybody that's from here Medicaid. What are you talking about? Let's get some international news. Flooding in Ghana has killed at least a dozen people. Here's a quick report from Reuters. We have a total of 7,761 households that were displaced with 38,802 individuals affected with seven persons still missing as of this morning. I don't know whether many more have been found, but seven people as at this morning were displaced and the total death are 12 individuals that were, that we lost. A total amount of 350 million is being targeted to be used to help in dealing with the challenges that we, we, we have. Horrible. Very tragic. That is one of the ministers in, in Ghana talking about the flooding there. And meanwhile this is something that normally USAID would have weighed in on. We had an agency once that would help countries that were in distress. We don't have that anymore. Meanwhile, at least 100 of the immigrants who were deported by this regime back to Venezuela, they are missing and presumed dead following a catastrophic earthquake this week. Meaning that if you add it up between the people who have died as a result of mass deportation, the, the people who have died because Donald Trump lied about COVID during his first term, plus the people who've died because of Doge destroying USAID and condemning maybe millions of people around the world to needlessly die of treatable diseases like HIV or malaria or other diseases that USAID used to impact. Plus the genocides that we funded and facilitated in Gaza and Lebanon, plus the people murdered by our military in Iran, including the schoolgirls, Donald Trump, Elon Musk, Stephen Miller, Pete Hegseth, Marco Rubio, this regime. If you add up both the first and second versions of the Trump regime, Donald Trump will go down in history as one of the most lethal individuals to humanity in modern history. He will rank up there with some of the worst leaders, the Stalins, the pol pots of the world, for just mass death caused by him and his friends. Elon Musk is crashing out all over social media trying to say show me one person has been killed as a result of getting rid of usaid. Nick Kristoff went and responded to him on, on, on X Twitter and then is doing interviews listing by name the people who have been, who have been killed because of him. These people are causing death. Sending a hundred people back to die in an earthquake. That's nasty work, y'. All And I think this is one of the reasons why so many people like myself are rooting for the Global south in the World Cup. It's not everything, it's not a huge thing, it's not everything, but it's like one little thing that we want to see the Global south win over the West. And so I'm rooting for all the African countries. I'm going to tell you, we're rooting for all the African countries. We just heard the Senegal heartbreakingly just lost to Belgium, which is the real killer for me right now because Belgium's history is so disgusting and disgraceful, what they did to 20 million dead in the Congo because of King Leopold. So that that one's totally breaking my heart. And they were winning. Lord help. But this was how Congolese fans, the con DRC was playing earlier today. Here's how Congolese fans were feeling at about minute 71 of that match. Okay, we can stop there. That was after about 71 minutes when the Congo team fired a beautiful goal. And. And we're up one zip. But it wasn't to last. Here's how it ended. Yeah, you can stop it. In the end, it was the England fans who were celebrating as the team came from behind thanks to a record setting two goals by England's team captain, Harry Kane, to send the Congolese team home with a 21 defeat after truly valiant play, their goalie was doing all the things Kane has now exceeded the legendary Pele for the most goals in a World Cup. Also a huge star on the World cup has been Kylian Mbappe, who I'm sure you guys have heard of. He's kept France in the running. Oh, it's been rough. Joining me now is Dave Siren, our friend and our favorite person to go to when it comes to all things World cup sports. Editor at the Nation magazine, author of 11 books on the politics of sports, including the People's History. I think we have the book there. I think we have a copy there. It is. The People's Historian, the Outsized Life of Howard Zinn. Dave, I was just getting breaking news from my son who was running in because we were literally watching the Senegal game, the Senegal Belgium game, even as we were preparing for the show and they lost. And my heart is broken, but I don't know if you're like me, but I'm rooting for all the African teams because literally all but one of the African teams who vied to get in, got in. I'm going to read you this really quick statistic before I Let you Talk of the 10 in 2018 at the World cup in Russia, not one of Africa's five teams made it out of the group stage, recording just three wins out of a possible 15. Fast forward to 2026. Africa has held up its vindication of. Gianni Infantino is a terrible person. Expansive project. Of the 10 African teams, all but one made it through to the group stage. Group stage runner ups. Cape Verde, Egypt, Ivory Coast, Morocco and South Africa. Best third place teams, Algeria, Democratic Republic of Congo, Ghana and Senegal, two of whom have been eliminated. Your thoughts?
- [83:32]
Dave Zirin
Incredible. Incredible showing by the African squads. Heartbreaking losses by both Senegal and the Congo particular. I watched both matches. Particularly heartbreaking when you consider that it was in the palm of their hands. I mean, first and foremost in terms of the. The match against England, you felt the sense of trepidation because Congo is up 1 to nothing. But England just kept getting shot after shot after shot. And the goaltender for the Congo is just playing out of his mind. It was like watching Neo in the Matrix. Yes, but that's the thing about soccer that's so painful, is that you could have a game that's 001 to 1 and yet one team is just playing appreciably more aggressive. And that's important because soccer is one of those sports where, you know, it's. It's a bit of a cliche, but the more you shoot on the goaltender, the more chance you're going to score. And when there's that relentless pressure on the defense, I mean, it was one of those things where I was just crossing my fingers, counting the seconds against. Yeah, because they were being so much more aggressive and had so many more shots on goal. And what was. It was sad in that regard because you hate when the sound of inevitability comes down the tracks and hits you in the face. Now, the other match was different. The other match was different because Senegal had that game two to nothing. Yes, there was some horrific referee skullduggery at the end where they called a. This is what was going on. It was extra time, the very end of extra time, the last minutes of extra time at a 2, 2 tie. And they called a penalty inside the box on one of the Senegalese players, on a Belgian player. It was very 50, 50. I'm not going to say it was a terrible call, but it's definitely not the call you make to decide a World cup knockout game. Ever make this call? If this is a high school team playing in the first half, sure. You make that call. You don't do it in that situation. So they got a penalty kick with just a minute left, leaving the Senegalese players just utterly bereft. Now, to their credit, there was like one more minute, two more minutes. They played their hearts out those last two minutes. And that just made it all the more heartbreaking. But it speaks to something that I think you're talking about more broadly, which is the World cup is politics by other means. It is in, it is informed politically, and it is created politically for the simple reason that we do have this world of unequal nations and we do have this sport that the entire world watches. And when you imbue that incredible global viewership with the politics of colonialism and empire, it's impossible to extricate the two. And it is what makes it so painful. And so it's like today, you know, it's the United States against Bosnia, and I find myself really wishing the United States was actually playing a team from the global South. Yeah, I truly root with even more fervor.
- [86:39]
Jason Johnson
Exactly. To see them get knocked down, Peg,
- [86:42]
Dave Zirin
because we know how it's going to be explained, exploited if they go forward in the Cup. Let's just be real about that.
- [86:48]
Jason Johnson
It's like the Empire Strikes back. Like, it's funny because I kind of feel like now I know how San Antonio fans felt watching the Knicks, you know, power back from being down 29 points. And you think, oh, we got this. And you know, these teams, you know, they see, I mean, Senegal was out playing, let's just be clear, they were out playing belgium for like 80 minutes. And then suddenly, in a two minute span, suddenly Belgium comes back and just plays like amazing for like two minutes. And then they just roll past them. It feels in many ways like, yeah, like the, the African teams are Luke Skywalker and them and the European teams are the Empire. It just is how you feel.
- [87:31]
Dave Zirin
Yeah, absolutely. And that has to do with all the advantages in terms of money and training. And of course, it has to do with the fact that the best players from around the world play during the seasons in Europe. That's where they are primarily and largely in Europe. And so that's where they're also then getting their training as well. And that just by necessity dilapidates the ability to build those kinds of national infrastructures that could be the most helpful.
- [88:04]
Jason Johnson
And the thing is, it's so many of these, the best players. What's so fascinating, like the goal that was the equalizer for Great Britain before the team captain scored two points, was shot by an African. And let's just be clear. The Africans elevate the European teams. So you're watching African players score on African teams and you're just Mbappe alone, Syrian Mbappe is like the best player for France.
- [88:32]
Dave Zirin
Yeah.
- [88:32]
Jason Johnson
You want him to be playing for Africa, for an African country.
- [88:37]
Dave Zirin
I'm, I'm glad you said that. I wasn't going to introduce that part to the conversation, but I, I knew you'd appreciate. I was going to tell you this off camera, if not on that. One of the brain dead right wing influencer people, the kinds who say, well, where's white History Month? As if they're making this original point that no one had ever heard of in their entire lives.
- [88:58]
Jason Johnson
Like, my God, the genius. I never thought of such a thing.
- [89:02]
Dave Zirin
You know, and then you have to sigh and be like, christ, do I really have to explain this again? It's like explaining the Southern Strategy and the Democratic Party and the, it's like, all right, the Democratic Party started the clan. Yes. Now which party is the clan voting for? Can we have that discussion? You know, so it's, it's that. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, I'm going on too long with the intro. Well, what the person said was, why is it that the European teams let black players on but the African teams don't?
- [89:31]
Jason Johnson
And I was like, well, one, there's
- [89:35]
Dave Zirin
a legacy called colonialism.
- [89:39]
Jason Johnson
I wonder how black. Yeah, it's like deep thoughts in Europe. It's like, you better not try to
- [89:46]
Dave Zirin
answer that question too deeply. You might find yourself in an encampment.
- [89:52]
Jason Johnson
You might get deported. If you try, you might get deported. You start asking, you start.
- [89:56]
Joy Reid
I mean, it's fine for you to ask that question.
- [89:58]
Dave Zirin
Don't start answering it.
- [90:01]
Jason Johnson
Find yourself on the other side of the wall. Like, why are there white South Africans? Wait a minute. Oh, darn.
- [90:09]
Dave Zirin
Doesn't that mean that South Africa is a country that should be run by white people because they let them in?
- [90:16]
Jason Johnson
Doesn't that make sense?
- [90:17]
Dave Zirin
It's like, no, Mr. Musk, put the ketamine down nappy time.
- [90:22]
Jason Johnson
I cannot. And it's so interesting that what they're mad about and what's embedded in that question is a recognition, I think, and an angry, rage filled recognition that the teams are better with an Mbappe on them, that they are better with the black. I mean, because these players, they play from a point of view of. This is what I've got. Like, there's not a. I mean, Europe has so decimated the continent that if you are in Senegal or Somewhere you're in South Africa. Even as a black South African, your opportunities to uplift yourself, you know, are in like three buckets. And one of them is, is football, soccer, soccer. And so they play for their lives. They play incredibly. They get to play on European teams because they play with so much more need to win, you know, and they're just athletically brilliant. And yeah, they want them on their team.
- [91:16]
Dave Zirin
I'll tell you, the most political World cup final of my lifetime, of, frankly, I think anybody's lifetime, was in 2006. I'm surprised there haven't been huge documentaries about this. But you have the French team, which is very integrated and their star is the Algerian ethnic, Zinedine Zidane. He's the star of that team. He's the legend. And the Italian team is, I believe, almost, if not entirely white. And so there was this huge wave of right wing racism in Europe saying we should all root for Italy because the French team isn't really European. Now what happens then in that game is Zen Zidane. It's over, it's extra time, it's tied. You know, everything is on the line. And that's when Zidane headbutted the Italian player, Matarazzi and got kicked out of the game because Matarazzi leveled a slur against him that was both ethnic and aimed at his sister. And so Zidane chose family honor over winning that World cup while also standing up for, it was believed, for Arab and Muslim people all around the world, people of color all around the world by delivering that headbutt. And granted, it helps a great deal that France won it all in 98 thanks to Zidane, but that made him even more of a legend in France.
- [92:42]
Jason Johnson
Yeah, yeah. That is an amazing, it's an amazing story. I, I, I know we're here to talk World cup, but I, I want to talk about your book because I don't think we got a chance to really dig in because I feel like we need a Howard Zin in this time. And I, it makes me sad that we, we need people who, as you do so brilliantly, can weave the reality of race and the racialization of almost all of Western history. And that isn't because of black people. That is because Europeans decided the way that they were going to build their economy was on slavery. And the Catholic Church said this is how to have the age of exploration. Go out, explore, enslave and kill whoever you find and bring us gold. And that was a decision. Right? And now people are really mad about the fact that there's so much racialization in history, it's like, why is Dave's iron dog and race all the time? Why is joy? That's why we do it, right? Even when. When it comes to soccer. Talk a little bit about the book and how that kind of, you know, weaves into what you do.
- [93:45]
Dave Zirin
Well, I'll be. I'll just be very frank. One of the. There are many reasons that attracted me to the story of Howard's in, one of which is that I knew him quite well at the end of his life. One of which was because I believe we desperately need the kind of rooted political optimism that's really ensconced in history. We need that now so much because things can feel so dark and so desolate. But the lessons of history show, really do that. Sometimes it's darkest before the dawn. And if we're armed with those lessons, it makes us that much more powerful to resist. And Howard Zinn's ability to not only express that, but to do so in an incredibly engaging and charming and humorous manner, I mean, made him an absolute gift. And it allowed him to just influence generations of people. I mean, how many historians can say they've had their work cited in the Simpsons and the Sopranos? He so was able to break out of the strictures of left wing thought and appeal, appeal to broad audiences. And that's one of the things that made him so dangerous. Attacked by the FBI, attacked by Donald Trump, attacked in the 50s and 40s, attacked in the 2000s, a decade after he passed by Trump, as I write in the book on the White House lawn. I don't even think he knows who he is. It's like when he said that Frederick Douglass is doing great work.
- [95:06]
Jason Johnson
No idea, no idea what he's talking, none.
- [95:09]
Dave Zirin
But he was reading what Stephen Miller wrote for him and can't even. Can't even go there. But one of the things also that fascinated me about Howard Zinn and wanting to write about him was the role that he played during the civil rights movement, because he did play this incredible role at Spelman College and then as one of the two adult advisors, along with Ella Baker of sncc, like, invited in, excuse me, I get moved. I talked about it. But he also understood how to take a step back, how to center black voices, how to center black youth, how to put himself in a position to advise but not instruct. And I just feel like he was decades ahead of his time as a white person in terms of how you build anti racist struggle with Black leadership. Those were the kinds of things he was speaking about and doing in the 50s.
- [96:05]
Jason Johnson
And.
- [96:05]
Dave Zirin
And then I felt like we only really started to have those discussions even in just the last 10 years. So that's what I wanted to write about, too, because I think there's a blueprint in his life that really serves us well now.
- [96:17]
Jason Johnson
Yeah. Okay, so you knew Howards in personally. Who would he be rooting for in the World Cup?
- [96:24]
Dave Zirin
I could tell you absolutely. That's an easy one for me, unfortunately. First of all, for baseball, he became, even though he was from Brooklyn, he became a Boston Red Sox fan after years of teaching at bu. That certainly hurts almost as much as Mitch Robinson signing with the Celtics today. That's another conversation. James Dolan, worst human being alive. No amount of championships can change that. But I think without question, Howard Zinn would be rooting for the underdog in every situation. He would look at every match and say, who are the people who really could use a lift in this world by a victory? Because those are the people that I'm going to root for. So I think he would have been all in on Senegal and the Congo today. And he would be absolutely just going like this, the same way we are, because they were so close to something beautiful. But we're going to have the memory of a lot of heroism. I'm never going to forget how hard they played today and they're going to return home as heroes.
- [97:22]
Jason Johnson
And I'm rooting for all the African teams. I'm being very open about it. I'm rooting for the African teams. I want one of them to. To win. I think it would be so great for the global south for an African team to take home the big prize. And I am sorry, not sorry, but I really want that to happen. I think it would be great for our collective souls if that happened. Because first of all, as you've pointed out so many times, Dave, the organization, FIFA is so freaking corrupt. It's so gross. It's like. It is like the James Dolan of world. Like a glorious James Dolan or horrible people. Last question before I let you go. Do you think the Knicks are going to end up being. Being dragged to the White House, or do you think that they can resist?
- [98:07]
Dave Zirin
I'll tell you something. People in the union, Leticia, James, of course, as you know well, the Attorney General in New York, they've all come forward and said, you do not have to go. And nothing. He, if he can, tries to compel you to go, he is actually breaking labor law. By doing so and your union contract. So it's really going to be on the players is. That's what we're going to see, the choices that they make. Ironically, the player who would have been most stoked to visit Donald Trump just signed with the Celtics, Mitch Robinson. He's a, that's unfortunately where his politics go. He's, he's, he's proudly from the country and he proudly loves him some Trump. That's, that's. He's on the Celtics now. That's all I gotta say. But I, I don't. We're gonna see, I mean, we're gonna see which players choose to show up and that's going to be very interesting because I'll tell you something. That team and that victory that made the city come together as one like nothing I have seen honestly since 9 11. Except it was out of joy, not out of horror. It was so beautiful to, to witness. I was, I was haunting the streets during it. I was watching the games with big crowds. I was losing my mind the whole time and I couldn't believe it. You know, this was the team of my heart, my youth, my soul. I'm sorry to go on so long about it, but I feel it so strongly what, how great it meant. And I'll tell you something, it brought together a city that despises Donald Trump that has been telling the world to watch out for this man for 50 years.
- [99:42]
Jason Johnson
Yes.
- [99:42]
Dave Zirin
So for them to go to the White House would cause a rupture in one of the great romances we have seen in sports history. And that's the romance between the 2026 New York Knicks and the city of New York.
- [99:56]
Jason Johnson
Always so beautifully said. That is why I love talking with Dave Zirin. We're gonna put the book in the shop and make sure you guys get a chance to get your copy of the People's Historian, the Outsized Life of Howard Zinn. Dave, you're great. You are the greatest. I appreciate you so much. Always. Cheers. We love having on Dave's iron. He is so. This has been so much fun talking to the folks that we've had on the show tonight. Right? Don't you guys, don't you love it? Let's, let's talk about one more of our amazing sponsors. The Door Read show is brought to you by Common Power. Last year, when the Republican party started early redistricting, they made it clear that earning Americans votes was the least of their priorities. And after gutting the Voting Rights act, they have doubled down on their attempts to Rig the midterm elections. This is nothing new, fam. Our country has been here before. Common Power is fueled by the historical movements that brought us the Voting Rights Act, a call to action that mobilized volunteers from around the country to the south. This taught us the importance of fighting for our neighbors, both locally and across state lines. Today, if you are in a predominantly blue state, we're asking you to join this national fight. Common Power has built an organizing force to train and deploy volunteers to door knock for Democrats in more than 20 battleground states and over 50 races this year alone. Historically, traveling to help your neighbor has been an essential part of progress in this country. And this election requires our leaders to use every tool at their disposal, including trained, dedicated volunteers from around the country ready to win in key battleground states. For those of you who refuse to sit this moment out, sign up to volunteer at common power.org/joy. That's commonpower.org joy. Okay, now, for those of you who have not yet caught up on Grammy Award nominated singer Eric Benet's political post on this amazing Instagram thread, here is a little sample.
- [101:47]
Eric Benet
My emotions don't know what the to do when people like Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, and Marjorie Taylor Greene start saying truthful. Look at this. Look, look, look, look, look.
- [102:07]
Joy Reid
Israeli TV just had Tucker on and I can't believe he just told the Israeli people this.
- [102:11]
Jason Johnson
And this is exactly what Donald Trump said. He said that the United States would have been in danger. So you don't believe Donald Trump?
- [102:20]
Joy Reid
I don't believe Donald Trump. And I also think as an Israeli,
- [102:23]
Dave Zirin
you, you should pause before using the phrase terror regime.
- [102:26]
Joy Reid
Since you live in a country that
- [102:28]
Jason Johnson
just murdered thousands of children in Gaza,
- [102:30]
Dave Zirin
we should all pull back a little bit.
- [102:32]
Eric Benet
Hey, what's going on, y'?
- [102:33]
Jason Johnson
All?
- [102:33]
Eric Benet
This is Eric Benet, and on Today, I am rocking my BU Rainbow LGBTQ T shirt. Support my gay community out there. What's going on, y'?
- [102:45]
Jason Johnson
All?
- [102:48]
Eric Benet
You guys, it's only been a year.
- [102:51]
Jason Johnson
Give him a chance.
- [102:53]
Eric Benet
Give him a chance. I don't agree with all of his decisions. I don't agree with everything he's done,
- [103:00]
Jason Johnson
but give him a chance. Give him a chance.
- [103:04]
Eric Benet
You know what I hate? Say immigrants don't make this country great. Apparently, I am part of a cultural minority, a dwindling, spattering of the population who has never, ever seen one episode of Love Island.
- [103:39]
Jason Johnson
And the stellar, brilliant, talented, and fabulous Eric Benet. Me now.
- [103:47]
Eric Benet
What's going on?
- [103:49]
Jason Johnson
What's up, man? How are you?
- [103:51]
Eric Benet
Listen, can I. Can I tell you that I have been a fan of yours forever.
- [103:56]
Jason Johnson
No, don't say that. It's too much pressure. I can't believe you know who I am.
- [104:00]
Eric Benet
Get out of here. I mean, no, thank you so much. I mean, you was. You was too much for him. They was like, this. This black girl is too much for us. We got to get her off these networks.
- [104:14]
Jason Johnson
Well, you're apparently too much for him, too, because I can't tell you how many times I'm like. People are like, did y' all know Eric Benet? Political. He political. And I'm like, yes. I follow him on Instagram. Like, he's so political. And they're like, when did you become so political? I'm like, you guys have not been following him for very long. Where did you become so political, sir?
- [104:32]
Eric Benet
You know what? It's. It's one of those things. Somebody said something about Michael Jackson, like his. His training at Motown, and it's like they did with artists back in the day, and there was still remnants of that when I first started in the 90s, and it was, don't you ever talk about politics. Don't you ever talk about religion? Every time. Nothing controversial. It's just always about music and Kumbaya and love and rainbows and that's all it's about vibes and music. And when I first got my deal at Warner Brothers, I remember sitting down with the publicity department, because I've always been me. And. And they would say, eric, yeah. Why don't you tone down that. That loud Milwaukee thing you got going on and. Because we trying to sell some records. And I think. I don't know, Joy, probably around the time I, you know, started to get to a little mature age, 40ish, I was like, you know what? Forget all that shit. I'm just. I'm gonna just be me. And shortly after, I discovered social media, and I think it was the descending of the golden escalator happened right of the ascending of my discovery of social media. So I just went. I just was like, I ain't holding nothing back now.
- [105:51]
Jason Johnson
Well, I mean, the thing is, you can't say that, you know, entertainment and politics are separate when literally the President of the United States is the guy from the Apprentice who is an actor who pretended to be a successful businessman on a TV show, right? And he's political. I mean, they've made the Kennedy center political. This dude stuck his name on the Kennedy center, which is where artists perform. Like, how.
- [106:15]
Eric Benet
Like, how. How is it that he can. He can just slap everything decent that this country stands for and every symbol that stands for unity and the strength or the promise of strength of this company, of this country. And people can stay so silent. But even more fascinating is how are so many people still following him? Like, on any given day this last week, you could have picked one of the things that he said or did, and the next sentence could be, and they still following this fool. Like, I don't. I can't grasp it. I can't grasp it. And I think that's one of the things my just being completely exacerbated by. I'm like, somebody just asked me this at the BET Awards. Like, why have you. Why have you become so verbose? And I was like, well, I'm looking at what's happening, and I'm kind of looking to my right and my left, and all my entertainment people are just being quiet. And I'm like, okay, well, if y' all ain't saying nothing, I'm gonna say something. Shoot. It's crazy.
- [107:24]
Jason Johnson
We appreciate that. And I appreciate you because, you know, there's a lot of conversation that I'm having both here and also on Redistribute that my Jackie, Me and me and Jackie Reed, we were really going in on this over the weekend because there are so many artists from Generation X. You know, as a Gen Xer, it just hurts my heart. How many Gen X artists who, of course, came up with Trump being a very public figure, of course, but running behind him, performing for Don Junior at the private club 50 Cent, even Busta Rhymes, this breaks my heart, these people running. I think Timbaland is doing it. They're willing to run behind Trump. They don't want to be at America 250 because literally, even Millie, the remaining member of Milli Vanilli, didn't want to go to that. Right? Like, no one's going to that. No one wants to be at America 250. It's a complete failure. But behind the scenes, they're willing to take money from Donald Trump's family to perform. I don't understand it, why so many artists are willing to run behind him. I don't get it.
- [108:19]
Eric Benet
Especially hurtful because hip hop used to stand for. And I know I'm talking like an old man now, because hip hop used to be a completely different thing than it is now. It used to. Hip hop used to hold a mirror up to the way the government was subjugating the inner city. That's what hip hop used to stand for. Now it seems like, yay, oligarchs. As long as I'm rich. And it's like, that's especially heartbreaking for me.
- [108:57]
Jason Johnson
I mean, Nicki Minaj as an immigrant who was undocumented, being down with Trump is crazy talk. Kanye west, who said George W. Bush doesn't care about black people, but he loves Trump. You could just go on and on and on. The number of these people who, like you said, used to stand up for us and be our cnn. I mean, NWA was our cnn. You know, it was telling us what was going on in the hood. And now you have somebody that was in NWA who's like, trump curious. Like, what is this? I don't even understand it. And I can imagine as an artist, for you, it must be, like, doubly horrifying.
- [109:33]
Eric Benet
Yeah, yeah, it's doubly hard because I feel like not just with. I'm not trying to beat up on hip hop because I don't hear a lot of, like, R and B crooners.
- [109:41]
Jason Johnson
No one's saying anything.
- [109:42]
Eric Benet
Truth.
- [109:43]
Jason Johnson
By the way, sir, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but Michael Jackson would never. Michael Jackson, they don't really care about us. In the midst of all his strife, Michael, he was white as a sheep by the end, but in his heart and soul, he was like, I'm still black, y', all, and I'm still speaking 100, 100.
- [110:01]
Eric Benet
I. I just feel like back in the olden times, back, back in the 80s and 90s, I felt like artists. It was. I felt like. And I came up in a time where I used to look up to those artists like Stevie Wonder and Curtis Mayfield and Marvin Gaye, you know, who felt like, oh, if I'm an artist, it's my job to hold up the mirror to what's happening socioeconomically, politically, globally. My art holds up a mirror and is that megaphone to people to say, this is what's happening, y', all, through art. And I feel like. I feel like part of the reason is because the music industry just doesn't have the reverence that it used to have. When old man gonna sound like a old. Another old man first.
- [110:56]
Jason Johnson
Like, you're not old, but go on.
- [110:58]
Joy Reid
But.
- [110:58]
Eric Benet
But when you needed to take your hard earned allowance and, you know, we, as black kids, we had. Didn't have a lot of allowance, but when you saved up that allowance and walked your ass to the record store to get your Earth, Wind and Fire record to buy your, you know, whatever music you wanted, you. There was reverence for that music. There was. There was. There was music classes in Public schools. So there was, there was a need to not just push a button on a laptop, but you had to find that groove. And once you found that groove, you locked into it and you were so happy and you shared it with the world. And I think that realness in music is also declining the fact that artists don't, artists don't have that artist reverence anymore. So hey, art is about me making my money, getting clicks and, and, and saturating myself as opposed to I'm gonna hold up the mirror through my, my God given creativity and, and scream to the world what's going on. It's like that part of the ingredient I feel like is kind of gone.
- [112:11]
Jason Johnson
Yeah. One thing I want to touch on before I get, because I want to talk to you about social media and, and you did a couple things I wanted to sort of expand a little on the music industry. Sir. Seems to me to be maybe the most exploitative and difficult of all of them. I mean, Hollywood has its real challenges. My sister's an actress, you're an actor as well. Hollywood is challenging when it comes to like exploiting folks. But there's something about the music industry that it's, you know, Prince had to put a, change his name to a symbol. Michael Jackson had to fight for his art to own it. And then when he tried to buy the Beatles catalog, they almost went to war against him. What is going on with the music industry? And has it gotten better? Because, I mean, look what Diddy was able to do to people like the music industry. A lot of people talk about Clive Davis being horrible, you know, to artists in terms of getting paid. Is it as bad as we think it is?
- [113:06]
Eric Benet
Yes. I, I, I feel as though it's worse because.
- [113:15]
Joy Reid
Why?
- [113:17]
Eric Benet
Because it is. Could you imagine, could you imagine if you were a painter and you painted these, you went out and you bought the, the oil, oil paints or the watercolors or whatever it was and you poured your heart onto this canvas and you painted these paintings. You got 50 paintings at home and then somebody would just come to your house and say, oh, thank you very much. I think I'll take these. And you'd be like, well, those are my paintings. Oh, they'll be hanging on my wall in my house. You can come see them if you want to. So it's like we dig in our souls to create art and we are expected now with this generation to just give it away for free. And that's really what we do. You don't make any money in the music industry. There is no money in making music. It's really about the personality or the Persona that you're attracted to because of the music. I'm able to do things like be on Joy's show, and then I can. You know, if people hear my music that I give away for free, if they think I'm good enough, they will come to my live show, which is awesome. They'll pay for that. And, you know, or you can go the route of, hey, I'm gonna be on this TV show or this reality show. It's like music has become the background that is not important anymore. So it's no longer an industry of making this. This revered piece of art and having people, you know, invest in it. It's like an advertisement for all the other things that you can do or all the other things you can exploit about yourself. So it's just. It's very sad, especially when, like I said, I came from, you know, I. I used to play. I dropped out of college, and I started to play clubs in the 90s, like, making $75 a week, perfecting my craft, going to a recording studio, writing and playing instruments with my cousin and my sisters. And it ain't that no more. It ain't that no more. It's not that for the artist, and it's not that as a. As a revenue source. It's. Let me show the world either what a train wreck I am or what an interesting individual I am. And. And then I can sell my hair dryers or my. Or. Or GL1 pills or whatever. Whatever you want to sell. It's like. It's a racket, and it's sad. It's like, I know I sound like a broken record, but there's just no reverence for the craft of making music. And it's very sad.
- [116:00]
Jason Johnson
Yeah. I mean, you can't imagine, like, Michael Jackson coming out with, like, a wig line.
- [116:05]
Dave Zirin
Know what I mean?
- [116:06]
Jason Johnson
Or, like, you know, it's. It's all, like. People have a. The music is part of it. But then people have, like, a skincare line and a clothing line, and that is where they're really making money. It's not exactly. Music is just part of the Persona. It is. It's a very weird, weird world.
- [116:20]
Ellie Mustall
Yeah.
- [116:21]
Eric Benet
There is no money in making music.
- [116:23]
Jason Johnson
In making music. And touring, it's incredibly expensive. And we first.
- [116:26]
Eric Benet
Touring is very difficult.
- [116:28]
Joy Reid
It's.
- [116:28]
Eric Benet
It's very difficult. And as you can see, lots of tours aren't really happening because I don't know that's. It's. It's a very, you know, economically, to invest in the tour and promote the tour versus what the artists get. It's, it's hard.
- [116:44]
Jason Johnson
It's very difficult.
- [116:45]
Eric Benet
Yeah.
- [116:46]
Jason Johnson
And yet, like, concerts are still, to me, the best way to experience other than vinyl, like, vinyl and concerts, you know, Now I sound like an old person. Give me a vinyl record in a concert any day. That's the best way.
- [117:00]
Eric Benet
You ain't never lying. I encourage young artists out there, even if it's a little coffee shop up the street, whatever it is, like, perform, perform, perform, perform. Because just like actors say the purest form of acting is theater. You know, you gotta be on stage to hone in on that craft. I think for a performer, we see the difference. Now. The performer who, who has, you know, made his music on his laptop in his bedroom, and then he's plucked from obscurity and then some record label throws him on stage and it's like he sucks. It's like, you, you absolutely suck. You can't command an audience. You don't know what it is to channel the creativity and then put it out. You got to learn that through not knowing how to do it for a couple of years. So I, I encourage all the artists out there who are in their bedrooms and making their tracks and the loops and the things and putting them on TikTok. Nah, go to the, I'm sure somewhere a couple blocks from your house. It's a little coffee shop or on the street corner, you know, do the busking thing. You know, you gotta hone in on your craft.
- [118:09]
Jason Johnson
Yeah. Coming from a brilliant artist such as yourself, who is so talented. Eric Benet, thank you so much. Before I let you go, will you promise to watch at least one episode of Love island and then come back and we will literally just talk about that? Because I haven't watched it either. I, I. You when you said that, I felt that in my soul, I was like, I need to watch this. I'm going to have to watch it. But if you will watch it, I will also watch it, and then we can talk about it. What do you think?
- [118:33]
Eric Benet
The cl. The clips are so crazy, so entertaining. Hey, I really like your vibe. You know, it's like, I don't know, if I could sit, maybe I could do 15 minutes.
- [118:43]
Jason Johnson
I don't do 15 minutes.
- [118:45]
Eric Benet
You know what?
- [118:45]
Jason Johnson
Watch half an episode. I watch half an episode and we got, we got to talk about it. It's what everybody's talking about.
- [118:50]
Eric Benet
I know. We got to, we got to talk about it.
- [118:52]
Jason Johnson
So everybody, where Will you be? I know you're touring out there. Where. Where's the next place we can hear you live?
- [118:56]
Eric Benet
Yo, I. Oh. Oh, my gosh. My. My label will be so angry at me. My new single, who's gonna save us? Who's gonna save us? It's basically an extension of what we've all been talking about. There's so much madness happening out there and ain't no heroes coming. It's us, it's Joy, it's Eric, it's who's ever watching this. We gonna get us out of this. My new single, who's gonna save us? I'm going into the studio to finish that. Oh, and I just finished a manuscript that I would love. If you read Joy, it's a young adult fantasy for ages 12 to 14. It's a fantasy, but the backdrop, the real message of the book is the power of your true voice. And sometimes you find yourself in worlds where you may feel completely out of place, but you are exactly what they've been looking and waiting for for you to get there. So I'm. I just finished the manuscript and when I can give it to you, I would love it if you read it, please. Hopefully you'll have me back on the show.
- [119:58]
Jason Johnson
Done and done and dusted up. You are welcome to come back. You are welcome. You are family now. Eric Renee, thank you so much. We will definitely be looking for that single. We will be downloading it and we gonna pay for it. We're not gonna listen to it for free. We want to download and purchase a single. Everybody we support are great and we are huge fans. Thank you so much. Really.
- [120:16]
Eric Benet
I love you, Joy. I have love you back since the first show.
- [120:20]
Jason Johnson
Oh, you're the best.
- [120:21]
Eric Benet
I remember. I remember when Rachel Meadow first. First met, you know. You know, this young lady sat in for me. What she do? She took a vacation, right? And you sat in.
- [120:29]
Jason Johnson
Yeah, I did.
- [120:30]
Eric Benet
And then you got your own damn show. I was a fan.
- [120:33]
Jason Johnson
Listen. And it was a hard getting. There's a whole story story behind me getting to sit in for her because that was like these person you want to fill in and I was fulfilling lady. When I got to feeling for that, I gone clear as they say in the West Indies.
- [120:44]
Eric Benet
Oh, we gotta talk about that. Next time.
- [120:46]
Jason Johnson
Next time we're gonna talk about it. Okay, we're gonna talk about it. That's how that's happening. Thank you.
- [120:50]
Eric Benet
All right.
- [120:50]
Jason Johnson
Thank you. Thank you.
- [120:50]
Eric Benet
Love you.
- [120:51]
Jason Johnson
Cheers. Love you back. Oh, my God. Eric Benet knows who I am. That's Amazing. I'm such a fan. That was awesome. Okay, guys, well, that's it. We gotta. We. We got Eric B. We got a charge. We were gonna look for that single. We gonna download it. We're gonna support this incredible artist. Before we let you go, we don't have a moment of joy. We have a moment of. Sometimes you gotta have a moment of what the hell? So our producer Niva sent us this, and so these are some people. Oh, by the way, please follow Eric Bennet. He has like 685,000 followers on Instagram, so make sure that you join them and become 685,001 and follow him on all his things and ericmane.net and you can get that. So single and please download it. Let's talk about this moment of what. Here are some people, for whatever reason, scaling the Empire State Building. Take a look.
- [121:36]
Joy Reid
Sure. What I'm seeing, but it almost looks like he's proposing to this woman up on this platform on the spire.
- [121:46]
Jason Johnson
I love Kimberly's face.
- [121:48]
Joy Reid
Kimberly can't see what we're looking at, but we're looking at the back of the woman. Am I wrong?
- [121:53]
Jason Johnson
Oh, I think that's what happened.
- [121:56]
Joy Reid
Another kissing. Kimberly, to share this with you as. As bizarre a moment New York City moment as I've ever seen.
- [122:04]
Jason Johnson
I love this city. Only in New York City. It appears that this couple and the woman might have had Batman ears on. Scaled the. I don't understand it, but it was for a proposal. So I will tell you that the Empire State Building is just fine. Neither of them died or fell off, which is. Thank God. And apparently they were both. They are now engaged. And they were arrested. They were arrested.
- [122:34]
Joy Reid
Well, at least they can probably spend a night in jail. Well, not together, but.
- [122:38]
Jason Johnson
Well, they'll be separate.
- [122:39]
Joy Reid
Yeah, listen, but that would be. That would be a great. I mean, they could tell their grandkids that we broke the law so daddy could basically get up here and let your mama know how much he loved her. I spent a couple jail days in jail, got my neck stepped on. I'm still paying back that fine. And y' all are what, 25, 26? But I did it because I love you. I mean, you could have did that at the base. You.
- [123:09]
Jason Johnson
Listen, that is.
- [123:11]
Joy Reid
I. I wouldn't do that myself. Did they have tie lines? Could a strong wind come and blow them off?
- [123:18]
Jason Johnson
Yes, but New York is only in New York. And you know how high that thing is. That thing is way high.
- [123:24]
Joy Reid
Yeah. They better than me. They better than me.
- [123:26]
Jason Johnson
But guess what. It's crazy work. You're right. Caramel candy is crazy work. But guess what? They survived. They are now engaged. And yes, they got arrested. So that they have.
- [123:35]
Joy Reid
I hope they make it, man, because if they get married and break up in two years, that's gonna be some foolishness. I don't even know what the guy. If they ever decide to get married again, what would the second thing be? That.
- [123:45]
Jason Johnson
And don't get divorced because y' all need to stay together now at this point. Don't ever. You. Y' all need to stick together. Jenny Oblivion said thank you at Joy and Jason for helping me hang on to Sandy like Stephen Colbert was doing. Oh, that's a huge compliment. We. We try to keep everyone sane, including ourselves, y', all, but we. We, Jason and I. One thing we will not be doing is climbing the top of.
- [124:05]
Joy Reid
Oh, no, no.
- [124:07]
Ellie Mustall
That.
- [124:07]
Joy Reid
That. That. That
- [124:10]
Ellie Mustall
gonna happen.
- [124:11]
Joy Reid
You know, I may. I may sit on a platform or something like that. But first of all, you got to get up there. And that means, you know. Oh, hell nah.
- [124:21]
Jason Johnson
I. Poly.com says probably an interesting couple. I'll tell you what. They probably fun to party with, though.
- [124:25]
Joy Reid
I'm telling you.
- [124:27]
Jason Johnson
But I ain't doing that, though.
- [124:28]
Joy Reid
We. We fun to party with sometime, but we ain't that kind of party. You know what I mean? Not that kind of party.
- [124:34]
Jason Johnson
1999 from SL. Let thank you and sending us love. We appreciate all of you guys. Thank you all for supporting the show. Jason, when I get back, we'll find a tall building to climb, and that will be our social media.
- [124:47]
Joy Reid
You gonna be on that building by yourself? I won't be up. I. Listen, I would make sure that you have a harness.
- [124:56]
Jason Johnson
Give me a heart. Yeah.
- [125:01]
Joy Reid
And I'll make sure at the bottom they have all those big old fluffy stuff. I just hope the wind doesn't take
- [125:07]
Jason Johnson
you further because Halls of Abundance wrote for you. I won't.
- [125:14]
Joy Reid
And, you know, I mean, would I. Would I. Oh, God, girl, no, we're not doing that. Because if she got blown off,
- [125:24]
Jason Johnson
not. How would you explain. Are you going to be that dude said, are you going to be that duty that.
- [125:31]
Joy Reid
Oh, girl, I told you that was a bad idea.
- [125:34]
Jason Johnson
Just let it fall. You have to let it go. Oh, it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't meant to be. They're going to have to think about
- [125:41]
Joy Reid
that overnight in jail. I'm sorry.
- [125:44]
Jason Johnson
Thank you all for watching. Be sure to hit like and subscribe. And don't worry, Jason and I will be doing no insane stunts. See you guys on the next Detroit re show on Friday. Oh, by the way, Friday we will be live from Essence Fest. We will be in New Orleans live from Essence Fest. That should be fun. See you on Friday. Stay off of tall buildings and be good till we'll see you next. Peace.
- [126:04]
Joy Reid
Getting back to the basics? Grassroots level?
- [126:06]
Eric Benet
Let me dig a little deeper with the shovel? Plenty? Can't tell the forest from the trees? And I'm hard to detect?
- [126:12]
Joy Reid
Like a black hole in the dark? Injustice anywhere?
- [126:15]
Jason Johnson
It's a threat to justice everywhere? Let me make this clear?
- [126:18]
Joy Reid
I got a bone to pick? And I'll never fear the threat of poverty?
- [126:21]
Eric Benet
They don't want to talk about it?
- [126:23]
Joy Reid
They rap the party? So I'm a real talk about it for sure.