Loading summary
Transcript107 lines
- [00:15]
Joy Reid
Good evening, good evening, good evening everybody and welcome to the Joy Reid Show. Happy Wednesday. I want you to be sure to hit that like and subscribe button if you have not done so already. We so appreciate your support for independent media. We want to make sure we keep it going. So like and subscribe.
- [00:30]
Chris Hedges
Thank you.
- [00:30]
Joy Reid
And and we have a lot to get to tonight. A lot of big guests, including an update. I want to start with this update on a story that we've been talking about all week and that myself and Texas State Representative Jalanda Jones went live on for an hour last night. And thank you all for tuning in for that. So after a full day of media speculation yesterday that was all over social media and which prompted our live that the Texit Democrats were preparing to give up the ghost and go home after Governor Greg Abbott announced that he would end the special session that he called to bow to Donald Trump's demand that he gerrymander him five more seats, which of course the Republican controlled Texas legislature is seeking to do by stealing two seats from the 4.3 million black residents of Texas plus a seat from the state's Latino majority. And with Texas Democrats generally declining to call the gambit what it is, namely a racist gerrymander. It now appears that the push by a small number of black Texas Democrats, Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett, Congressman Al Green, both of whose seats are being targeted in this racist gerrymander attempt, and particularly State Senator Jolanda Jones, whom you have seen right here on this very program, to actually name the thing, show the maps and keep on texting by staying out of the state, it appears that the caucus is finally listening. According to a statement from the Texas Democratic Caucus which was posted on social media earlier today. Here's the quote. After deliberations among our caucus, we have reached a consensus. Texas Democrats, now this is important, refused to give Abbott a quorum to pass his racist maps. Congratulations to the caucus for doing the right thing in defense of democracy, in defense of of Texans and big ups to State Representative Jones for naming and claiming what this thing has always been and for pointing out that the Supreme Court is watching. It's not a political gerrymander, it's a racist gerrymander. And by calling it that, the Texas Democrats have actually not only done the right thing, that actually helped their case when it gets to the Supreme Court. So kudos to all. Also on that front, California Governor Gavin Newsom has announced that he is formulating the punishment should Texas Republicans get their racist gerrymander map through. Newsom posted a deliciously trolley post mimicking Trump's own style reading Donald Taco Trump, as many call him, missed the deadline. California will now draw new, more beautiful maps. They will be historic as they will end the Trump presidency. Lyndem takes back the House. You had go you, you go, Gavin. We kind of love Gavin Newsom right here. He's welcome to come on the show anytime. Open invitation, Gavin, well done. Now, I'm told that drafts of the new proposed California maps could drop as early as Friday up to maybe next Tuesday, though, due to a constitutional amendment. One potential option to get those maps through now because their amendment says that they can't gerrymander outside of a census year. But there was a possibility that that the state legislature in California will hold a special election this November to change the constitution in order to allow the mid cycle redistricting. And note please that New York also has a constitutional amendment. And other states are also figuring out their versions of the punishment if Texas somehow manages to get their gerrymandered, racist gerrymandered maps through. And by the way, again, they can't do it without a quorum and their special session technically ends Friday. But the governor says he's just going to do another one. So as long as the Texas Democrats keep texting, no gerrymandered racist map. So kudos to the Democrats now. Meanwhile, Washington, D.C. is now under what amounts to Trump martial law, with members of the National Guard wandering around the monuments and streets of the District. We've even heard reports of police presences near Howard University. Mayor Muriel Bowser, who issued a rather sedate statement yesterday, a calm statement, changed her tune completely overnight during a virtual town hall, calling on members of the D.C. community to protect our city, protect our autonomy, protect our home rule, and get to the other side of this guy and make sure we elect a Democratic House so that we have a backstop to this authoritarian push. So you see how this story is connects with the Texas story, because Texas right now is holding the line and California is where you could wind up flipping that house so that Trump will actually have to be accountable. Meanwhile, though, the authoritarian who's vowing to take over even more cities that are have black mayors is making himself the host of the Kennedy Center Honors, which he will now host himself, while of course also complaining that he never won a Kennedy center honor himself. He's like, they never gave me a Kennedy center honor, but I'm going to host it because I don't know. And he's going to honor, you know, some maybe used to be a list Hollywood stars that he likes and some other folks as well. And the regime is in the process right now also of bogarting the Smithsonian to ensure that the exhibits in the national museums will comport with Trump's vision of a cleaned up American history with no negative information. Just in time for the nation's 250th birthday. Nothing at all fascistic about that. Or the creation of a surveillance police state. Nothing at all. Meanwhile, God bless South park, which has doubled and tripled down on mocking puppy killing Homeland Security director Kristi Noem. As their their ratings are like through the roof booming. They're actually taking a week off because their ratings are so good, they're just churning out more episodes. They're literally like the hottest show right now because of their mockery of Trump and friends. If you have not seen their latest episode, I promise you it's worth it. You absolutely should watch it. Okay, let's get to tonight's news. The issue of genocide in Gaza, on a wholly different note, has frankly been really difficult to approach in the mainstream Western press, including in Europe, but especially here in the US In American media. But there are some journalists who have actually been really crystal clear about Israel's policies toward Palestinians long before October 7, 2023. I want you to take a listen to one of those journalists.
- [07:08]
Chris Smalls
My old office in Gaza is a pile of rubble. The streets around it, where I went for coffee, ordered maftoul or manakish, had a haircut, are flattened. Friends and colleagues are dead or more often have vanished. Last heard from weeks or months ago, no doubt buried somewhere under the broken slabs of concrete. The uncounted dead in the tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands. Israel has made Gaza a wasteland, 50 million tons of rubble and debris. Rats and dogs scavenge amid the ruins and the fetid pools of raw sewage. The putrid stench and contamination of decaying corpses rises from beneath the mountains of shattered concrete. Palestinians, 90% of whom are displaced, risk death from unexploded ordnance Left behind after 18 months of airstrikes, artillery barrages, missile strikes and blasts from tank shells and a variety of toxic substances, including raw sewage and asbestos. Israel, supplied with billions of dollars of weapons from the United States, Germany, Italy and the UK Created this hell and it intends to maintain it.
- [08:50]
Joy Reid
Joining me now is the man that you just heard, journalist Chris Hedges, the Pulitzer Prize winning former Middle east bureau chief of the New York Times. His new book is called A Genocide Foretold, reporting on survival and resistance in occupied Palestine. And we're gonna show a cover of his book shortly. Chris Hedges, I see that you're getting yourself in place. I wanna thank you so much for joining us.
- [09:14]
Unnamed Guest
I am not at all.
- [09:19]
Joy Reid
You have been, I would say, one of the most forthright and straightforward journalists when it comes to talking about Israel and the Palestinians and the treatment of the Palestinians even before October 7th. And I want you to, if you can, kind of help me grapple with why it seems to be so difficult for so many in Western media to.
- [09:41]
Unnamed Guest
Do that, because there's a cost. The Zionist lobby is fierce and strong. They, and I speak as somebody. I spent seven years, of course, in the Middle East. I was the Middle east bureau chief for the New York Times. I'm an Arabic speaker. So for that reason I was. When I reported out of the Israel, Palestine area, it was primarily with the Palestinians. But if you stand up and speak the truth about the apartheid state and about the indiscriminate use of industrial weapons to carry out slaughter against, I would argue, a largely defenseless population, remember, the Palestinians do not have mechanized units, an air force, a navy, heavy artillery, any serious kind of command and control. You are rapidly pushed aside by or your reporting is neutralized. I mean, when I reported out of Gaza, for instance, with Israeli airstrikes, the way they neutralized the story was even though I was interviewing eyewitnesses, even though I was on the ground, every other paragraph was the IDF spokesperson, which didn't happen in any other conflict. I covered the war in Yugoslavia for the New York Times. That didn't happen when I covered the war in Bosnia.
- [11:04]
Joy Reid
So.
- [11:06]
Unnamed Guest
It'S really, really difficult to penetrate and speak the truth about what's happening on the ground. Although I think this live streamed genocide has kind of ripped the veil off of, you know, the very successful, up until now, successful effort on the part of the Zionist state to control the narrative.
- [11:30]
Joy Reid
You know, that as you said, the livestream genocide has been carried a lot by very, very brave, often very, very young Palestinian journalists themselves because Israel does not, and the BBC has acknowledged this. They do not allow journalists to, you know, to do their journalism unfettered without an Israeli minder. They're actually just not allowed to be in Gaza independently, generally. So it has been Palestinians themselves who've been live streaming, who've been posting, who've been on social media, and they have been systematically killed off. We just saw Al Jazeera, which is one of the few organizations that still had a fairly substantial cohort of media in Gaza. Five of their journalists just recently killed in a targeted assassination. What do you make of the relative silence of members of the Western media when journalists. 237 killed so far. This is one of the deadliest conflicts for journalists ever. But not a lot of talk about that in the West.
- [12:29]
Unnamed Guest
I mean, I covered the war in El Salvador for five years. As I said, I covered the war in the former Yugoslavia. It was scary and horrific. I think we lost 22 reporters and photographers in Salvador. I think 45 in Bosnia. But nothing compares to Gaza. I mean, the Western media has really failed. My old employer, the New York Times, has failed. Yeah, it's really embarrassing, frankly, and shameful. Al Jazeera and I, you know, in full disclosure, am off and on. Al Jazeera, in fact, have been. Al Jazeera has flown me twice to Qatar to do broadcasting on both the Arabic and the English service has done heroic work. When you go into the building with Al Jazeera Arabic and you walk down the foyer, it's picture after picture of murdered journalists. It's quite chilling. I think we're having some issues with your same way doctors have been targeted.
- [13:30]
Joy Reid
Hopefully it'll clear up just a little bit. I'm having a little bit of difficulty hearing Chris, I think.
- [13:34]
Unnamed Guest
I don't know, Israel's systematic effort to destroy civil society.
- [13:40]
Joy Reid
I'm going to ask you just one moment, please, because I think you're having. We're having some issues with your connection. I think your WI fi might not be the strongest, Chris. So hopefully we can strengthen that up a little bit so we can hear Chris Hedges. Because I know that I'm having just a little bit of trouble.
- [13:51]
Unnamed Guest
I put him backstage for now.
- [13:53]
Joy Reid
Okay. So he is backstage for now. I want to thank those of you who are jumping in. Joseph Chamberlain through $10 in the till. Thank you. Wanda M. As well. Ronald Barnett, 1999. Thank you very much. We appreciate your actual financial support for independent media. We're going to try to see if we can get Chris Hedges back on again and let's see if his wifi connection is a little stronger. Can we bring him back on stage and see what happens?
- [14:16]
Unnamed Guest
Okay, we have a thunderstorm here, so maybe that may be it in Princeton that.
- [14:21]
Joy Reid
Trust me, I overstand. Yeah, definitely. The weather is not always our friend when it comes to WI fi. So I want to have you go back and talk a little bit again. If you could restate your answer about the killing of those Al Jazeera journalists.
- [14:33]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, no, it's really chilling. And as you Joy, pointed out, it dwarfs any conflict Any modern conflict, including the ones that I covered. And this isn't journalists being killed on the front lines. These are journalists being targeted. I mean, the latest, the five Al Jazeera journalists were in a tent recharging because they have to use solar power. So. But that's been true for doctors. And we know that they are killed by drones either leaving their shift or coming into their shift or their apartment is blown in a multi story apartment building. The apartment of the doctor or the apartment of the journalist, or even writers and poets like Rifat Alarir and others. They are targeted, clearly targeted, and it is appalling. Of course, the press has been completely locked out. The foreign press is not allowed in, and Palestinians have just done heroic work in transmitting what's been happening. But this is about erasure. It's about. And part of that erasure is the erasure of the story itself. The erasure of the reality of what's happening. Not just the physical erasure. That's happening too. So, yes, it is unlike anything we've seen in the modern era.
- [15:56]
Joy Reid
Yeah. And it's so thorough that what you're seeing is, you know, every church, every school, every mosque, every hospital, almost every hospital is gone. And even the antiquities. I remember doing a story at my old job about a little theater. This is just a little theater where Palestinian artists were operating, obliterated. It is as if what the IDF and what Israel is trying to do is to erase the memory that Palestinians were ever there. And I assume that that's why the ICJ deemed that this is a credible genocide.
- [16:33]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, no, that's exactly what they're trying to do. They're trying to. I mean, that's why they've bombed the archives and as you pointed out, the archaeological museum, all the universities have been destroyed. Anything that is a repository of historical or cultural memory or historical or cultural expression is destroyed. And they have very much targeted the elite, the educated elite, which is also true in any genocide. Go back and look at the Armenian genocide or any other genocide. So yes, that's right. This has been systematic from the beginning. It's why they destroyed the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, unrwa, which is absolutely vital. It runs most of the schools, the clinics, 400 aid distribution. They shut it down because it is, as in any genocide, it is about extinguishing not just the people, but all of the systems that support life, that sustain people. People in Gaza, including the water treatment plants, by the way.
- [17:38]
Joy Reid
Well, I mean, we do recall that the Defense Minister said there'll Be no water, there'll be no food, there'll be no fuel. I mean, they actually sort of broadcast in advance that this is what they were.
- [17:47]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, yeah. No, from the pretty upfront about it, I don't know why Zionist supporters can't figure that out. It's not like it's been hidden. They talk about razing Gaza, bombing it back to the Stone Age. One cabinet minister said, you know, we should drop a bomb on it. And then, of course, the way they refer to Palestinians, human animals and this kind of stuff. No, it's been. And in the, you know, the ICJ report, it's well documented, so. Yeah, you're right. It's. It's not hidden. I mean, Hitler didn't hide it in Mein Kampf. And I'm not saying that they're Hitler or Mein Kampf, but I mean, oftentimes these genocidal projects are quite out in the open. And that is true with the Israel.
- [18:32]
Joy Reid
It is indeed. Let's talk about the sort of thing that seems to have cracked open just a little bit of the sort of heartstrings of the mainstream. At least Western media, at least here in the US has been the starvation campaign. And you can't starve people in like a month, meaning that food must have been being withheld for many, many months for you to see emaciated babies, emaciated mothers, breastfeeding women who cannot produce milk. This is months of starvation. And I wonder if you can wrap your mind around now, people are expressing outrage about that, which I guess is good, but there's been a very, very slow actual response from states, from countries. You're now seeing Europe saying, well, we may recognize a Palestinian state to punish you down the road. We may withhold some arms. I think Germany is saying, we may withhold some arms, but it's been really slow.
- [19:28]
Unnamed Guest
Well, it's performative. I mean, the fact is there's no disruption in the flow of weapons. What? The arms that Germany, I think they're primarily naval weapons. I mean, it's not even clear that they'll have any effect. Of course, most of the weaponry comes from the United States. Israel depleted its munition stocks, of course, a long time ago. Well, I think you're right. Toy that the starvation is issue, you can't militarily justify that. You can say, well, we bombed a hospital because, you know, it's a Hamas command and control center, or we killed Al Jazeera journalists because, you know, they fire a rocket, which is patently absurd, but fire without, of course, Providing any evidence for these claims. They fire rockets, but with starvation, what can you say? But I will say, having covered, I cover the famine in the sudan. It takes 40 days. Once food is cut off, it takes 40 days, although children and the elderly, of course, die at a faster rate. And that's what we're watching. So you're right, it isn't overnight, but it's cumulative. And what happens is that eventually you get an explosion of people dying of starvation. I think we're already beginning to see that. And what they've done, very cynically, the Israelis, is use food as a weapon through the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. Only four distribution points. They're only open about an hour a day. You know, about 1,000 Palestinians have been killed in the rioting. I mean, when you go into those food distribution points, you carry a knife, either to protect yourself or to steal food from someone else. I mean, it's savage. It's meant to be savage. And they use that as bait to lure people to the south to put them in ringed military zones. They're talking initially 600,000 Palestinians, then up to a million. And of course they're negotiating with countries like the Sudan to deport the Palestinians. That's ultimately the goal, to put them in a kind of ringed concentration camp, lure them there through food packages which are, you know, nobody pretends that this is an adequate food distribution, but it's the weaponization of food. And that's again, a kind of hallmark of the, of the last chapter of all genocides.
- [21:45]
Joy Reid
Let's talk a little bit about October 7, because, you know, one of the things that, you know, has been not encouraged and you know, I'm like, you've worked in mainstream media. There was not a lot of interest, I shall say in Mainst, in US media of context regarding what was happening on October 6, 2023, and what, what conditions were like for Palestinians leading up to that and what might have led Hamas to do that attack, which was the deadliest attack on Israel.
- [22:25]
Unnamed Guest
Okay, I couldn't hear the last part.
- [22:27]
Joy Reid
Troy, when you were saying, sorry, no, I'm trying to get a. Which was not welcome after the October 7th attacks in 2023. But can you tell us, since you're a journalist and you've studied this area a lot, what was going on in Gaza before the October 7th attacks?
- [22:43]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, I mean, you're right, it's context. It's all context. And so for those of us I reported seven years out of Gaza, we kept saying, you can't treat people like this. There is gonna be an explosion. A great poem by Langston Hughes, you know, dream Deferred. So there will be and people will react as they did on October 7th. Norman Finkelstein has likened it, I think correctly, to the Nat Turner Rebellion. Nat Turner, I think, killed 44 whites, including women and children. Any white that he saw. That's not to, of course, condone it, but we have to understand, and I think what we really saw is akin to a kind of slave revolt. People have been trapped there for 16 years. There's no work, especially for young men. I've been, of course, in the refugee camps. They're sleeping 10 to a room. There's just this horrible despair, stagnation. And then Israel periodically, in their cynical phrase, mowing the lawn, will just use attack jets to bomb refugee camps and artillery units to gun down Palestinians. So, yeah, that's what happened. I also want to say that there's pretty clear evidence that because the Israelis were flying blind, all of the watchtowers had been taken out. Most of their military installations along that, I think it was a 27 or 37 mile border, were overrun. They didn't know what was going on. So they were firing on any cars that were going into Gaza, back into Gaza. Many of them held Israelis. They bombed Erez, which was the main checkpoint, when they knew they had their own soldiers in it. So I'm not in any way saying Hamas or other Palestinian resistance forces did not carry out atrocities, especially at the music festival. Without question they did, but it was. Yeah, it's all context. And I think for those of us who spent as much time as I did in Gaza, it wasn't a surprise. When you treat people like animals, when you speak to them solely in the language of violence, exclusively in the language of violence, then eventually that's the language they're going to speak back. You know, CLR James writes about this in Black Jacobins, I think quite presciently, because in the Haitian liberation movement, you know, the only successful slave revolt in human history, there were atrocities that were carried out against the white slaveholding class, French slaveholding class. But as Clr James points out, this was a momentary passion and to draw an equivalency with a long nightmare of oppression that enslaved people endured or the people in Gaza endured. There's a disequilibrium there. And I think part of the problem with Western media is they create this kind of false equivalency. I mean, you have the language that the Palestinians are Nazis. I mean, this is insane. They're trapped in an open air prison. They don't have industrial weapons. They're being bombed right and left. I mean, even on the Great March of Return, which was almost exclusively non violent, Israeli snipers were shooting down medics and journalists and, you know, people and often seeking to maim them for life, which they did. There's. We can't. That. That equivalency is part of the false narrative. These are, this is an oppressed population. Hamas is. And I knew one of the founders of Hamas, Abdulaziz Rantisi, I knew them well. I spent a lot of time with Hamas and I don't condone many of the tactics. I was there for the suicide bombings of the buses, which was appalling, of course, but most resistance groups, including the ancient, including the Zionist groups pre1948, adopt terrorism. But I think that's another. Hamas is a national liberation movement. You may not like its ideology, you may not like some of its tactics, but it has genuine support. And when I was with Rantisi, he talked about it, he said, you know, we're not, we don't exclusive. I don't know to what extent Hamas has changed. And Sinwar was a very different person from Rantisi, who was a doctor, highly educated pediatrician, but he said, you know, we invite anyone to join the national liberation movement. So there's just a. We speak with these kind of slogans and cliches and have this cartoonish vision which is perpetrated by the media. But it absolutely distorts what's happening. And I think the demonization of Palestinians and really largely Muslims, that's one of the most galling aspects of trying to, attempting to cover this conflict. Honestly.
- [27:31]
Joy Reid
That. And absolutely. And sort of creating them and sort of making them the Muslim boogeyman. When I think a lot of Americans are very belatedly finding out that oh, little town of Bethlehem is a town full of brown Christians, of Palestinian Christians, and that many of their, the biblically named, still named, you know, places that are now inside of either Israel and the occupied west bank are full of Palestinian Christians. So I think that people don't necessarily know who Palestinians are.
- [28:03]
Unnamed Guest
Let's be clear. Jesus wasn't white. The Romans were white. Jesus was a person of color, as my friend Jeremiah Wright reminds everyone.
- [28:12]
Joy Reid
Well, that. And don't get me started on Abraham being the father of both the Muslim Christian and the Jewish faiths. And so there are a lot of brown people there, Mizrahim, Mizrahi, Jewish people and Palestinians who look almost identical because Some people picked Islam, some picked Christianity, some picked Judaism.
- [28:29]
Unnamed Guest
So that's why they have a lot of DNA tests in Israel. Because I bet if you went to Gaza or the west bank, there'd be a lot of shared DNA, right?
- [28:39]
Joy Reid
It's absolutely true. And I mean, there are the Europeans that came over that are a different group of Jewish people, but there are Mizrahi Jews that are, that are, that are, you know, indigenous to the area. My sort of exit question to you, Chris, is where does this end? Because I think that for all my life I've been paying attention, I feel like for all my life I've been paying attention to this issue and have had an empathy for the Palestinians because they seem just sort of a people without empathy in the world. And so there's something about their story that has always sort of resonated with me. And I've always wondered, at what point does this nightmare for them end? Do you see how this ends? Because it seems that in Bibi Netanyahu's vision, it ends with them all deported to somewhere but gone from the west bank in Gaza.
- [29:27]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, well, that's clearly the goal. I don't see anything to stop. The only two ways to stop it are outside intervention. You know, I covered northern Iraq when Saddam Hussein was driving the Kurds out. The NATO forces imposed no fly zone and Iraqi forces had to withdraw below the 38th parallel. I don't see that happening. That's one way. The other way is for the United States to stop sending weapons. Short of that, unfortunately, I think the demented vision of Bibi Netanyahu and Ben GVIR and these rabid right wing Zionists, unfortunately, there's no stopping it. I mean, look, nobody is stepping in, I mean, it's almost beyond belief. Nobody's stepping in to stop the starvation in any meaningful way. With the exception of Yemen, nobody has attempted to stop this genocide. And unfortunately, if there's a lesson from the Holocaust, it's not never again. The lesson is we don't care. And nobody really cared about the Jews during the genocide carried out by the Nazis. Nobody really cared about the Armenians when I was in the south of Sudan. Nobody really cared about the Sudanese, you know, Rolanda, Pol Pot. So I don't see anything, you know, outside of either intervention or sanctioning Israel, which the Trump administration is not going to do. I think that this nightmare not only will continue, but the goal of depopulating Gaza will succeed.
- [31:09]
Joy Reid
Chris Hedges, whose dog is jumping in? I love it when a pet joins in. Mine is right Next to me. No, she is preparing to bark at any moment. If she hears your dog, she's going to jump in as well.
- [31:20]
Unnamed Guest
I guess they woke up for you.
- [31:22]
Joy Reid
Amen. Amen. Well, we always welcome pets on the show. Chris Hedges, thank you so much. The book is called A Genocide Foretold, Reporting on survival and resistance in occupied Palestine. I've already ordered my copy, sir, and I hope you will come back. Thank you for being here.
- [31:35]
Unnamed Guest
Thanks, Troy.
- [31:38]
Joy Reid
Thank you. This is a rough story, so I appreciate Chris Hedges coming through. He is one of the most honest and, you know, smart journalists on this and we do need to have that context. It's really important. Okay. I want you to take a look at this New York Times headline about a frightening new project from the people who brought you Project 2025. And here's how the article begins. The conservative Washington based think tank best known for spearheading Project 2025, a proposed blueprint for President Trump's second term that called for reshaping the federal government and an extreme expansion of presidential power. Now, the heritage contingent was in Israel in part to discuss another contentious policy paper, Project Esther. The foundation's proposal to rapidly dismantle the pro Palestinian movement in the United States, along with its support at schools and universities, at progressive organizations and in Congress, drafted in the wake of Hamas's attack on Israel in 2023 and the mounting protest against the war in Gaza. From Project Esther outlined an ambitious plan to fight antisemitism by branding a broad range of critics of Israel as effectively a terrorist support network so that they could be deported, defunded, sued, fired, expelled, ostracized, and otherwise excluded from what it considered open society. Project Esther's architects envisioned outcomes that that at the time might have seemed far fetched. Curriculum it believed to be sympathetic to a Hamas support narrative would be taken out of schools and universities and supporting faculty would be removed. Social media would be purged of content deemed to be anti Semitic. Institutions would lose public funding. Foreign students who pushed for Palestinian rights would have their visas revoked or be deported. And joining me now to discuss all of this is a group of three really, really great guests. Beth Miller, Political Director of Jewish Voice for Peace and Jewish Peace Action. Barry C. Trachtenbert, the Michael R. And Deborah K. Rubin, Presidential Chair of Jewish History at Wake Forest University. And Dov Kent, US Senior Director of the Diaspora Alliance. Thank you all for being here.
- [34:07]
Beth Miller
Our pleasure.
- [34:09]
Joy Reid
So let's go through this. I'm going to put up on some graphics. Thank you. That you all sent to me. And I guess I'll ask Beth to sort of start here. Let's talk about what Project Esther's end game is and give us the timeline of sort of when it came to be.
- [34:29]
Chris Hedges
Yeah. Thank you so much for having us on, Joy. Project Esther was introduced by, as you just explained, the ultra conservative kind of Trump aligned think tank, the Heritage foundation, in October of 2024. And it basically sets out a 12 to 24 month plan for a public private partnership to try to crush and dismantle the Palestinian rights movement in the United States. And we should be very clear here, this blueprint claims to be about antisemitism, but it has absolutely nothing to do with Jewish safety and is entirely geared toward destroying a movement that is trying to stop a genocide and toward sharpening authoritarian tools that can then be used against other progressive movements. That is their goal. That is their goal.
- [35:22]
Joy Reid
And is there a piece of it? I mean, naming it Project Esther seems like it has sort of a meaning, Beth, that might not be a positive one for women.
- [35:33]
Chris Hedges
So the, the name Project Esther actually comes from the Purim story and Queen Esther, who kind of helped, like help save the Jewish people in this story. But I think what's really ironic about them choosing this name is that Jewish people were not involved in the writing of Project Esther. That is actually clear in the New York Times article that you just. The reporting they found and what other people have looked into it. This was written by white Christian nationalists, many of whom are themselves anti Semitic. And if you read through Project Esther, it's riddled with conspiracy theories that are themselves very anti Semitic. And so it's the irony and the kind of pain of them trying to pull from a Jewish story to create this title is. It's absurd. And it kind of speaks to the ways in which this project actually knows nothing about Jewish Americans, has nothing to do with Jewish safety, and is really just about kind of dividing our communities and dismantling our civil liberties.
- [36:37]
Joy Reid
And Barry Trachtenberg, that seems to be a through line with a lot of these attacks on universities, on Harvard University, on Columbia, you name it. And these attempts to extort money from UCLA and USC and to try to get them all to pay a billion dollars or half a billion dollars to the Trump administration. All of that, a lot of the push on. It is not Jewish people. It is evangelicals. It's white evangelical Christian men, for the most part, who seem to be the most zealous on this stuff. And white evangelical Christian members of Congress, United States Senate, and also members of the Trump Administration. Can you talk about that and some of the tactics that they lay out in this plan?
- [37:20]
Beth Miller
Yeah, absolutely. What these groups have done, who, you know, who largely come from Christian nationalist backgrounds, they have sought to weaponize anti Semitism in order not to help make life safe for Jews on our college campuses, but to dismantle more fun with WI fi.
- [37:42]
Joy Reid
We're going to see if. Barry. Oh, there you go. Barry, I think you're back. Start again. They've weaponized anti Semitism. Your WI fi went out for a moment.
- [37:50]
Beth Miller
Yeah. So these groups are weaponizing anti Semitism in order to dismantle our universities and the work that we do. They are using antisemitism as a means to take apart our DEI institutions, our academic freedom, our courses in ethnic studies, none of which makes life any safer for Jewish students and in fact increases the hostility on campus for all of our students and all of our faculty. You know, the, the, the people behind Project Esther believe that universities are hotbeds of radicalism, that university professors are grooming students to overthrow the government. You know, I wish we had that sort of power over our students. That means they would, they would do their homework, they would come prepared for classes if we had that type of authority, you know, and at our best, universities are places where we can have the free exchange of ideas, where we could invest, investigate social problems, we can try and test out solutions to make a better, more democratic society. But this is exactly what the Heritage Foundation Christian nationalists don't want to happen. They want to create societies that are based along strict right wing agendas that will deny the diversity and freedoms that we have fought so hard to sustain in our institutions. And they are weaponizing anti Semitism in this particular way to try to take these structures apart.
- [39:23]
Joy Reid
Dov, Kent, let me get you in here because you guys sent me a little thing on the core tactics here. And I want you to go through those tactics. And I think that is a key point that I think is very, actually important to hone in on. So go through these tactics. Dove, Kent, if you could explain what they are and how they resonate. Sure.
- [39:44]
Dov Kent
So the plan calls for a whole host of tactics. It calls for using tools including anti terrorism and anti racketeering, criminal prosecution, deportations, public firings, removal of tax exempt status, blocking of funding, and campaigns to sow discord within movements to disrupt and degrade the organizations. And I want to add to what Beth was saying, that Project Esther Scope, it says that it is starting with Palestine rights groups, but it actually targets a really wide spectrum of liberal donors, foundations and organizations. The plan names anti capitalist groups and claiming that all of these are aligned with, quote, America's overseas enemies. And all this really just sets the stage for guilt by association and exposes the true intent of Project Esther, which is dismantling civil society institutions such as universities, such as nonprofit organizations, as a way to get rid of any domestic opposition to the drum, to the Trump administration. And it's all under the pretext of, of protecting Jews. So the Christian right is really using us as a tip of the spear for an assault on democracy that they had planned long before the production of this report.
- [41:03]
Joy Reid
So we're having a, a little bit of trouble. I think everyone's in stormy weather today. So we're having a little bit of trouble with folks. I guess they're, they're, they're your signals here. So we're going to try again. I'm going to go back to Beth because I think, Beth, you might have had the strongest single signal. But I want to reiterate a little bit. I can kind of make out a lot of what Dove Kent was saying. But I want you to try to reiterate it, Beth, if you could. Because the reason I think it's really important for us to focus on this story and on these attacks, on these universities and particularly on the protesters is because these protesters have a certain number of things in common that I think bother the far right. They are largely multiracial, multicultural groups of young people. They are protesting, they are talking about things like colonialism. They are rethinking known and sort of settled history. And they themselves like sort of exhibit dei. They're diverse, they're curious. They are not listening to necessarily authority. They're standing up against authority. These are all the things that if you want to build a fascist state, you have to get rid of. Right. And it is to me, non coincidental that the same people who make the most noise about supposed antisemitism on campus are also the most anti dei. So they don't want a diverse campus. They want a less diverse campus. They want a more militarized campus. They don't mind, like the way campuses spend money on, you know, military research. What they mind is Jewish, Muslim, black, white, brown, Asian students coming together to say that a genocide is wrong, that military, the military being used to kill children is wrong. Then that autocracy is wrong. Right. And isn't that kind of the point?
- [42:58]
Unnamed Guest
We are.
- [43:02]
Joy Reid
And I think. Yep. I think she is also frozen. So we're gonna, we unfortunately, I apologize to you Guys.
- [43:07]
Chris Hedges
Oh, I think I might have gotten you back.
- [43:09]
Joy Reid
You're back. Okay, go ahead, go.
- [43:12]
Chris Hedges
I'm not sure who froze, but I heard almost everything you said, Joy and I. Yes, I think you. I think that's exactly right. I think that what's happening.
- [43:19]
Joy Reid
Joy, you can summarize the question, please.
- [43:21]
Chris Hedges
Is that we are seeing a. I think that what we're.
- [43:25]
Joy Reid
Hold on, I'm going to let you pause for a minute. I'm going to summarize the question again just so that people can hear it, just to make sure they heard it and that you can then answer it. That isn't the purpose of squashing these campus movements, to end the idea of diverse students of varying religious faiths, including Jewish students, Muslim students, Christian students, non aligned students, but of many races, colors and ethnicities joining together to stand up against authority, autocracy and colonialism?
- [43:56]
Chris Hedges
Yes, I think that is exactly a core piece of this year. What we're seeing on college campuses right now is what we've actually seen at many different moments in history where students are at the forefront of social justice movements and change. What we are seeing are college students, 20 year olds, 19 year olds, who are seeing a genocide live streamed on their phones and they know that it is being funded by their government and in many instances that their own institutions of higher education have ties to that genocide as well as. And they are fighting back against that. And they're saying, no, we refuse to allow this to happen and we are going to organize and use our people power to fight back against that. And I think that what we've seen in fascist and authoritarian societies across space and time is that the biggest threat to authoritarian power is when people get organized and they use their own power. And like you said, these students are multifaith, multiracial. There are tons of Jewish students involved in these protests along with their Palestinian comrades and friends. And, and many more, more students are involved as well. I mean, we had students, there were Jewish Voice for Peace chapter students who were holding Shabbats and Passover seders in the middle of these encampments. It's, it's actually quite beautiful what's happening on many of these college campuses. But it poses a core threat. This kind of free thought, this progressive thinking, this organizing is a threat to the MAGA coalition that is trying to seize power in this country right now. And I'll just end by saying, I think a very clear example of that is this, this kind of House of UN American Activities Committee that we're seeing play out with the House Committee on Workforce and Education in the House of Representatives where people like Elise Stefanik will start kind of a rant that begins by quite claiming to care about Jewish safety, which she does not and will end with a kind of a tirade about trans liberation on college campuses or DEI on college campuses. We can see that they're trying to start by attacking the Palestinian rights movement like Doug was saying, but in a way that opens the door to attack more and more communities.
- [46:10]
Joy Reid
Yeah, I'm gonna give Barry's WI FI another chance because this is the key. Because when you start hearing Barry Jewish Voice for Peace called a pro Hamas, pro terrorism organization when their name our Jewish Voice for Peace, you should start asking some questions.
- [46:33]
Beth Miller
I'm afraid.
- [46:33]
Joy Reid
And I don't think Barry's WI fi is going to listen. I'm going back to Beth. Beth's WI fi is the strongest. Because Beth, that is the thing is that to me the tell that this is not about Jewish students at all is the fact that they're also attacking the Jewish students. And I think they're all frozen. We're going to thank them because I don't think we're going to be able to get them back. But the reality and I think all of you need to like, you know, get this right. The reason that they're attacking these multifaith, multi racial.
- [46:57]
Beth Miller
Joy. I'm going to try to answer what.
- [46:59]
Joy Reid
I think is because they are that and because they are dei, they are the exact thing that they want to end. I'm going to thank my three guests because I do not think that their WiFi's are going to work for us to get back on Beth Miller, Barry Trachtenbert and Dove Kent. I apologize for the world of WI fi. Just doesn't want to let us be great. But thank you all for being here. I think we got what you all.
- [47:23]
Beth Miller
Well, I hope we can find another time. Thank you.
- [47:25]
Joy Reid
Go ahead, Barry.
- [47:26]
Chris Hedges
Thank you.
- [47:28]
Beth Miller
I was just want to say I hope we can find a time to have a conversation when the technology is working. If I could.
- [47:35]
Joy Reid
I think he said we're going to.
- [47:36]
Beth Miller
Try to have the Trump administration.
- [47:38]
Joy Reid
Yes, absolutely. We're going to make sure that we all get stronger WI Fi. Unfortunately we're going to have to bring our wonderful.
- [47:44]
Beth Miller
The tide is already turning against the Trump administration. I'm going to post halfway through about.
- [47:49]
Joy Reid
The Esther project on the substack.
- [47:51]
Beth Miller
We have the primary election.
- [47:52]
Joy Reid
Stay tuned for that and make sure that again that you subscribe there as well so that you don't Miss that this is actually a really insidious project that in the end is about attacking diversity and attacking the very movements, youth led movements that actually will be the most anti fascist and will be the most anti authoritarian. And they know if they can stop it on universities, they can also stop you. So when they're attacking one group, always ask yourself why are they doing it? They're certainly not doing it because they care about anti Semitism. Because some of the people who are the most interested in this topic are dispensationalists who believe that all Jewish people are going to die in a giant fireball because Jesus is going to come back and smite them. And they are trying to create a Christian nationalist state, not a state that is there to be comfortable for Jewish people. They don't care about them. What they care about is having fascism work. Okay, we're gonna move on to our next segment. Okay, I'm gonna play a piece of video for you. Oh, okay. We're gonna play a piece of video. Oh, okay. All right, we're gonna play it. We're gonna. Hold on just a second. We're gonna play a piece of video for you and give us one second to do that. And that video is actually a 14.
- [49:31]
H
I expected that the racism and bigotry is embedded in Israeli's culture and that's unfortunate because I got a glimpse of what Palestinians go through and there's nothing compared to what they go through every day. So it's not about me, it's not about the the Hondela crew. It's about the people of Gaza and the Palestinians that suffering every day. We knew that we couldn't feed everybody. It was about the hope and about the fact that we sending a strong message that we're never going to stop. We're going to send another flotilla, another one after that and we're never going to quit and give up. The resistance movement is going to last forever and it's going to outlive the evil. And the most important thing. We are here to break the illegal siege that Israel has imposed.
- [50:10]
Joy Reid
And that was Christian Smalls, a former Amazon warehouse supervisor who became a labor leader and founder of the Amazon Labor Union, the first independent democratic worker led labor union in US history for Amazon in Staten Island, New York. He's also the founder of the Congress of Essential Workers, a nationwide collective of essential workers and allies fighting for better working conditions, better wages and a better world. And you can see him there being greeted after a detention overseas. Mr. Smalls is one of 21 activists from nearly a dozen countries who were on the Freedom Flotilla coalition ship Handala, which was carrying baby formula, food and medicine to Gaza with when they were intercepted by the IDF. And Mr. Smalls was taken into custody. He's the only one of the group that is known to have been physically abused. And Chris Smalls is right there. He joins me now. Chris, thank you so much for being here.
- [51:04]
Unnamed Guest
Thank you for having me.
- [51:06]
Joy Reid
So let's talk about the, the, the ship that you were on. 21 people from about a half a dozen countries. What was the goal of the flotilla?
- [51:17]
Unnamed Guest
The goal is not to deliver aid. The goal is to break the illegal siege that Israel has imposed on the Palestinians for over two decades. A lot of people thought that this was mission two after the Medline, but this initiative had been taking place for almost 17 years. This is actually boat number 37 and trying to break their legal siege and.
- [51:41]
Joy Reid
Talk about what happened because I've seen the videos. The videos are all over Instagram, you all can find them. I'll post some on social on substack as well. But you all were then intercepted by an, an Israeli military ship. And then what happened?
- [51:54]
Unnamed Guest
Well, we live streamed up until the point where they pulled down the cameras. Their goal is to come in the middle of the night and cut communications off and then they basically take over the ship and transfer us over to the immigration authorities, which was actually 12 hours away. Once again, not our intentions on going to Israel, but we were only a few hours away from Gaza. We were less than 60 miles. We would have made it to Gaza by 3am we were kidnapped by the IOF by 11pm so we, we were transferred over 12 hours later.
- [52:29]
Joy Reid
And how many of the people on that ship, to be blunt, were black?
- [52:34]
Unnamed Guest
Oh, I was the only black man on board. We just heard from two niece as well. But black man featured me.
- [52:41]
Joy Reid
It was just you. As I noticed that when I went through the number, the pictures, the images, because of course the flotilla organization was putting up each of your videos. You each made a video saying we've been intercepted and it's gonna happen. I noticed you. You definitely stood out even among that very multi ethnic group. What happened to you? Because the reports that I have seen is that you were physically abused, you were physically beaten and that that only happened to you.
- [53:09]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, correct. As we were being transferred over to the authorities, the whole time there was cameras in our faces. They were trying to get these propaganda shots like they did with the Mad Lane, but they couldn't get that because we were already on a Hunger strike. And when I saw these cameras, I put my face, my hands above my face to block them and I said, I don't consent to these photos. And that's when they called over seven authorities. They threw me to the ground, they put their knee in my back, they twisted both my arms behind my back. And then three other three guys on each side, they levitated me while one was pulling my hair back and using my chains as a noose to choke me. And then they separated me from the rest of the crew and had me guarded in a separate room with five guards the entire process. And that's when the abuse ended right there. But then they were trying to also psychologically tear us down as well. You know, it got worse throughout the time that we had to spend in prison.
- [54:12]
Joy Reid
How long were you held?
- [54:16]
Unnamed Guest
So I was the last to leave. Once again, just me and my Arab brother. Deliberately, they let us stay in there five days. Everybody else was deported in groups of four or five days beforehand. And with us, we were the only two that was dropped off at the Jordan border. Everybody else was directly taken to Tel Aviv airport and sent home to their country. But with us, they left us at the border of Jordan.
- [54:42]
Joy Reid
And at any time, did they explain to you what your offense was?
- [54:47]
Unnamed Guest
No. I mean, they're, they're an apartheid state. Their justice system was just not up to par. We had to go to court, which the judge was on the property of the jail cell. So it didn't make any sense to me. And basically they rubber stamped this charge. That is not real. They have no jurisdiction on international waters. And with the case against genocide in Israel, South Africa last year, the ICJ already ruled that humanitarian aid is to continue to go to Gaza whether it's land, air or sea. Everything we were doing is legal. And they are saying that we enter Israel illegally when once again we intent on going to Gaza.
- [55:32]
Joy Reid
Did you at any time hear from the U.S. embassy or for U.S. officials because you're an American citizen, you have a blue passport. Did you hear from any American officials saying, hey, we're going to help you, we're going to get you out?
- [55:44]
Unnamed Guest
No, absolutely not. You know, when I was transferred to the port of authorities, I called the consulate. I spoke to one person over the phone and he promised my safety and well being, but this is already after I'd been assaulted, so he failed there. Everybody else showed up in person. They had consulates from their different countries and even when they were let out, the embassy showed up for them and picked them up. Even when we were dropped off at the border of Jordan. My brother Hatim, his embassy was waiting for him. The US Embassy did not show up. They didn't call to check in our well being. They didn't do anything.
- [56:25]
Joy Reid
And since you've been back home, has there been any intervention from federal government? Has anyone tried to question you about what happened to you?
- [56:35]
Unnamed Guest
No, absolutely not. You know, not the politicians that we all know well to be out there as progressives. The only one I've spoken to even on the Hondela was Rashida Tlaib. And I know that Rep. Summer Lee was definitely trying to amplify what happened to me. So I appreciate that. I met her in the past. But you can name all of these Democrats, progressives, I met them all. You can go down the list. Everybody knows me from my work with Amazon. And they all were silent.
- [57:07]
Joy Reid
And what does that tell you? Because again, we've seen that there is not a great deal of difference, unfortunately between the parties, at least on this issue. On a lot of other issues they're quite opposite, even on issues of organized labor. But on this issue there doesn't seem to be other than progressives. Other than progressives, not a lot of difference. What does that say to you?
- [57:29]
Unnamed Guest
No, both parties are, they got blood on their hands. This is a two party, bipartisan genocide that's taking place. It started with the Biden administration and is continuing with the Trump administration. And the bottom line is the US government is more than complicit. They are participating actively in this genocide that killed half a million people in two years. Our taxpaying dollars are paying for this and we all need to be outraged. That's the reason why I went on the Hondela to continue to spread awareness, especially to the black community who says that this is not our issue, it absolutely is. And then on top of that, you know, labor unions as well, they are shipping arms and manufacturing weapons. I'm calling that out as well. They haven't passed any resolutions since October 7th. And it's a shame. You know, this is why we continue to be divided in this country, because we can't come together to save our own humanity. And that's what we have to talk about.
- [58:26]
Joy Reid
And for those who say it's not our issue for African Americans or anybody who isn't, you know, either Muslim or Palestinian or Arab, what do you say to them?
- [58:37]
Unnamed Guest
We gotta read our history. You know, there's been black prominent people like Malcolm X, Nelson Mandela, who always stood with the people of Palestine. And you know, I know our History is not being taught to us the way it should be in our classrooms. Prime example of that. Even with the labor movement, you know, labor history is not taught to us in our classrooms. That's why we don't know about our rights as we get older. And, you know, we just have to put aside these stigmas. The reason why capitalism, capitalism thrives is because they want to divide people, keep us divided, and create fear and doubt. Without that, we can overcome anything. And that's what we've proven. When we defeated Amazon, a $2.2 trillion company, it wasn't money that helped us. It was the power of people. And it's the same thing with the Palestinian movement.
- [59:27]
Joy Reid
What's your next step?
- [59:30]
Unnamed Guest
I'm going to continue to use my platform to amplify the message of free in Palestine and definitely continue to help my union now try to get a first contract. Once again, it's all connected. Amazon has everything to do with this genocide as well. The AWS is the military industrial complex. And once again, we have to hold our elective official accountable and hold these labor unions accountable. Got a lot of things lined up, but I'm definitely going to continue to be in the streets.
- [60:01]
Joy Reid
Well, we appreciate you, Chris Smalls, for taking the time. Thank you. There was a lot of us tracking you down. We were waiting for you to be back on USO so that we could talk to you and appreciate you for all that you've done. In particular, I think people really need to look to what you've done when it comes to Amazon because that company, as you said, is not exactly looking out for the little guy. So thank you, Chris Smalls. We appreciate you.
- [60:20]
Unnamed Guest
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you.
- [60:22]
Joy Reid
Thank you very much. All right, y', all, thank you all for joining us tonight and thank you. Thank you, Wi Fi, for letting that Chris Smalls video go through. I think everyone is in bad weather, and when bad weather happens, you know what wifi likes to do. It likes to glitch up. But we appreciate y'. All. Thank you for watching. Please be sure to subscribe and share. Hit that subscribe and Share button right below. Hit the little, you know, notification thingy, too, so that you always know when we go live, as you saw yesterday, sometimes we might do it. You never know. But we want you to know where to be every Monday, Wednesday and Friday at 7pm Eastern time right here on the Joy Reid show because we've got a lot more good stuff coming for you. Thank you all for tuning in and good night.
- [61:13]
Unnamed Guest
Okay.